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[Orange]

Because I'm apparently bad at counting, even though we have four cards left, we are at the FINALS.  So after the Finals, we will have the Actual Finals and then have a winner.

Champion and City Quarter tied 12-12 in the last round.  Based on more votes in previous rounds, Champion has advanced.  Also, it was a good run for the Cinderella story, #28 Disciple but now we are down to the top four seeds.

You have three days to select the winner of each of these matchups.  (Voting will end sometime Thursday.)  Use whatever criteria you like to select the "greater" card/event of the two.

1 Champion (d. #32 Artificer 28-0, #17 Ambassador 21-6, #9 City Quarter 12-12)
4 Teacher (d. #29 Lost Arts 24-4, #20 Inheritance 17-10, #28 Disciple 17-7)

3 Donate (d. #30 Colony 25-3, #19 Tournament 26-1, #6 Goons 17-7)
2 King's Court (d. #31 Princess 26-2, #15 Possession 27-0, #10 Chapel 17-7)

[schadd]

teacher, king's court

[Chris is me]

Teacher King's Court

[Roadrunner7671]

Champion Donate

[ThetaSigma12]

Champion Donate

[LuciferousPeridot]

Champion
Kings Court

[Limetime]

Champion Donate

[singletee]

Now that the not-actually-powerful cards have been weeded out, I'll cast a vote.

Champion, Donate

[McGarnacle]

teacher, king's court

[mail-mi]

Teacher donate

[RevanFan]

1 Champion (d. #32 Artificer 28-0, #17 Ambassador 21-6, #9 City Quarter 12-12)

2 King's Court (d. #31 Princess 26-2, #15 Possession 27-0, #10 Chapel 17-7)

[J Reggie]

Teacher donate

""

[Lekkit]

Teacher

King's Court

[michaeljb]

Teacher

King's Court

[schadd]

i agree with the people that also voted teacher/king's court

[Beyond Awesome]

Teacher
Donate

[heron]

teacher
donate

[LibraryAdventurer]

i agree with the people that also voted teacher/king's court

me too

[schadd]

i agree with the people that also voted teacher/king's court

me too

upvoted for agreement

[gloures]

Teacher

Donate

[Beyond Awesome]

i agree with the people that also voted teacher/king's court

me too

upvoted for agreement

No. KC is not better than Donate.

[Limetime]

The olny argument for peasant > page is that the peasant line is so much better than the page one.
When comparing teacher and champion in isolation this doesn't apply.

[Lekkit]

The boards where Champion is the reason an engine comes together are fewer than the boards where Teacher does it. And even fewer boards Champion does what Teacher can't. You'd need multiple terminal drawing actions, or some reason to put and keep a token other than +1 Action on a single pile. I think, while Champion sure is a great card, it looks much fancier than it actually is.

The permanent Lighthouse is pretty sweet, though.

[Limetime]

The boards where Champion is the reason an engine comes together are fewer than the boards where Teacher does it. And even fewer boards Champion does what Teacher can't. You'd need multiple terminal drawing actions, or some reason to put and keep a token other than +1 Action on a single pile. I think, while Champion sure is a great card, it looks much fancier than it actually is.

The permanent Lighthouse is pretty sweet, though.

Champion makes much better engines though.
Also teacher takes an extra turn.

[Lekkit]

How does it make better engines? I don't really think you often need to stack multiple different terminals that badly. Teacher can provide Extra draws, extra actions, extra coins and extra buys. Champion will only provide extra actions, but do that slightly better.

[werothegreat]

Teacher

King's Court

[Limetime]

How does it make better engines? I don't really think you often need to stack multiple different terminals that badly. Teacher can provide Extra draws, extra actions, extra coins and extra buys. Champion will only provide extra actions, but do that slightly better.

In a teacher engine you probably need to buy villages. In a champion one you don't. In a teacher engine you might need to buy defense. There are many many terminals in dominion and not really any villages you want for the non-village part. Teacher can provide a few actions but won't  be able able to cover the actions of an engine that needs multiple different terminal. Teacher is worse in isolation because you don't have diciple to gain cards that will have tokens on them. It takes 4 turns minimum too put down both card and action tokens. By that time the champion player should have a deck that has tons of payload and can draw itself. The teacher player will have a bunch of magpies but won't have very much payload.

[madeofghosts]

Champion
Donate

[Chris is me]

i agree with the people that also voted teacher/king's court

me too

upvoted for agreement

No. KC is not better than Donate.

I agreed until like two days ago, I think.

The thing really is that Donate is just the ultimate enabler of normal Dominion success, while King's Court's presence completely warps the game by making impossible nonsensical amounts of VP, coin, draw, etc. possible that were previously constrained by the limitations of the Supply.

Of the four remaining the order  is really like KC, Donate, Teacher, Champion in terms of quality but what can you do?

Also if you get a board with everything you need handed to you then maybe Champion engines are better than Teacher ones, but Teacher boards enable more engines and sufficiently strengthen more engines than Champion boards do. I'd say 75% of Teacher boards become great engines while maybe, maybe half of Champion ones do. Teacher is better.

[McGarnacle]

i agree with the people that also voted teacher/king's court

me too

upvoted for agreement

No. KC is not better than Donate.

I agreed until like two days ago, I think.

The thing really is that Donate is just the ultimate enabler of normal Dominion success, while King's Court's presence completely warps the game by making impossible nonsensical amounts of VP, coin, draw, etc. possible that were previously constrained by the limitations of the Supply.

Of the four remaining the order  is really like KC, Donate, Teacher, Champion in terms of quality but what can you do?

Also if you get a board with everything you need handed to you then maybe Champion engines are better than Teacher ones, but Teacher boards enable more engines and sufficiently strengthen more engines than Champion boards do. I'd say 75% of Teacher boards become great engines while maybe, maybe half of Champion ones do. Teacher is better.

I completely agree with this. I've never played with Donate, though.

[markusin]

Teacher

King's Court

[JThorne]

I agree that Teacher enables more engines on more boards, but think about this: How many boards can't be engines at all because of the attacks? How many boards are automatically slogs because the attacks will slow everything down?

Imagine you could wave a magic wand and start a game of Dominion with a Champion in play, or with a Teacher on the mat. You don't know what the rest of the kingdom looks like. Which one would you choose? The ability to completely ignore ALL cursers, looters, discard attacks, topdeck attacks like they're not even there...better yet, if it's asymmetrical and your opponent chooses Teacher and you choose Champion and you win the Curse/Ruins split 10-0...there's no contest. Sure, the flexibility of Teacher does make better engines. But isn't completely ignoring attacks better in more kingdoms than the extra flexibility?

I just realized that I didn't include a vote.

Champion Donate

I guess it's not surprising that in a discussion that started about the most powerful things in Dominion regardless of coin/debt/opportunity cost we ended up with a list of close to the most expensive things in the game in terms of coin/debt/opportunity cost. Go figure.

[Dingan]

Champion Donate

[A Ladder]

Champion
King's Court

[Amac]

Donate is a no-brainer. So much better than Kings Court it isn't even funny.

Pretty indifferent about the other one. I'm inclined to Champion

so Champion, Donate.

[allanfieldhouse]

Teacher
Donate

[Chris is me]

Donate vs King's Court is a classic average vs ceiling debate. Donate is on average fantastic, because you basically always do it. King's Court has a higher peak, but when all you're doing with it is chaining Labs together or something it isn't all that exciting (far more skippable blah blah).

Really it's the same debate with Champion and Teacher. Champion is always a good card; Teacher sometimes completely breaks the game.

KC and Teacher have higher potential to fundamentally disrupt a game, even if they have low moments that Donate and Champion don't have.

[Limetime]

Donate vs King's Court is a classic average vs ceiling debate. Donate is on average fantastic, because you basically always do it. King's Court has a higher peak, but when all you're doing with it is chaining Labs together or something it isn't all that exciting (far more skippable blah blah).

Really it's the same debate with Champion and Teacher. Champion is always a good card; Teacher sometimes completely breaks the game.

KC and Teacher have higher potential to fundamentally disrupt a game, even if they have low moments that Donate and Champion don't have.

The peak on donate is extremely high.
With fortress market square donate tomb begger you can get 43 points every turn garenteed.

[Lekkit]

I agree that Teacher enables more engines on more boards, but think about this: How many boards can't be engines at all because of the attacks? How many boards are automatically slogs because the attacks will slow everything down?

Imagine you could wave a magic wand and start a game of Dominion with a Champion in play, or with a Teacher on the mat. You don't know what the rest of the kingdom looks like. Which one would you choose? The ability to completely ignore ALL cursers, looters, discard attacks, topdeck attacks like they're not even there...better yet, if it's asymmetrical and your opponent chooses Teacher and you choose Champion and you win the Curse/Ruins split 10-0...there's no contest. Sure, the flexibility of Teacher does make better engines. But isn't completely ignoring attacks better in more kingdoms than the extra flexibility?

You still have to cycle through your deck 5 times. In that time your deck will be clogged up by Ruins/Curses either way. Sure, if I could have any one of those at the start of the game, the Lighthouse effect becomes much more powerful. But you can't. And while Diciple sure is very much a reason to buy Peasant, and that's not what this list is about. You still have to take into consideration the time it takes to get to the card.

[JThorne]

You still have to take into consideration the time it takes to get to the card.

...and that's where the entire discussion breaks down. In the original discussion, I even tried to get the poster pinned down on criteria, which wasn't done.

If you have to consider the card as a whole, then you have to consider the cost, and you have to consider the value of all of the page/peasant line, because those are ALL part of the opportunity cost of playing the card, just as much as the number of turns it takes to play it.

If you can take cost into account in evaluating the "greatest" card, then Chapel, because of its incredible cost/benefit ratio, jumps well over Teacher, Champion and King's Court easily.

[Lekkit]

I disagree that you'd need to take the other cards in the line into consideration. However cost/time to get to the card is actually important. Part of why Chapel is so strong is not because of what it does, but rather how cheap it is. You can ALWAYS open Chapel/4-cost card at least.

You don't (or shouldn't at least) rate Spoils based on Bandit Camp/Marauder/Pillage, but rather on the card itself. A one time Gold you get from playing another card. Honestly, I do take into consideration that these cards are somewhat beneficial for you to play, just as I take into consideration Curses/Ruins are bad to gain. I admit there's no clear line. I take some things into consideration, others might take other things into consideration.

Also, if you don't take other cards into consideration some VP card is probably the greatest card.

[Deadlock39]

Whatever guys.... You clearly don't understand what it means to be the greatest card because Great Hall wasn't even in the running.

[loneXolf]

Champion, Donate

[Orange]

One day remaining in the most important vote of this week!

[papadjango]

Champion
Donate

[Orange]

My votes:

Champion
King's Court

Voting is now closed.  Championship coming up!

[Orange]

Last vote open now:

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16529.0