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[Haddock]

OK.  So I'm still phone posting because my computer is being weird.

But here goes.

This was my first game as VT and it has been a tough one.  My actions pretty much speak for themselves I'd say. My main problem was my pushing of RR, which was fairly bad. Apparently I used to be able to read RR at least a bit and now I can't at all.

I've also been totally suckered. All game I have had scummy feelings about WW and e, e more so really.  I tried to force those feelings away because I know I tend to omgus a lot and WW and e were both tunneling me. They have played a very clever game. They know that a) they both usually scumread me when they are town and b) that I have recently been trying to shake my tendency to find people scummy for voting me.  So tunneling me was the perfect way to hide in plain sight.

I think if you reread it will be clear that my reads on WW and e have evolved very naturally throughout and that I'm just generally towny. I will try to find some posts of mine depicting my stance on ww throughout the game, in just a moment.

As I say my big issue was pushing RR so badly.  But WW and e were both pretty heavily involved in the chairs lynch, so there's that to counterbalance it.

Iguana made a lot of sense: Do you really think that I'm scum being consistently tunneled by my partner?  Or is it more likely that WW and e, scum partners, gave each other town reads because when there are only two of them that's much safer?
I think you're fairly confident that WW and e are partners, gkrieg, so I can only implore you to stick to your instinct.

[2.71828.....]

Sorry, not going to get to this tonight.  I promise I won't hold the game hostage waiting for me though.

[gkrieg13]

Sorry, not going to get to this tonight.  I promise I won't hold the game hostage waiting for me though.

Well you know what will happen if you don't do anything

[Haddock]

gkrieg I'm gonna pick out some things I think could help you.  Obviously it's not everything and I'm probably cherry-picking a bit.

The first one is one of my super long posts, sorry.

It's long, but it's also the post where I first start scumreading WW.  Before then I think I referred to him once and gave him town points for one sensible post. But here you see me evolving into a scumread on him while he continues to tunnel me.

2 posts later you see my reads at the time summarised and I put WW as 3rd scummiest. 
Sorry I scumread you!

Saw this too:

vote: WW

I really think it is between him and e. One of those two just had to be scum

Rock solid reads, buddy.  Nicely done.

I also think it would be worth it for you to read this post and the next few:

vote: WW

I really think it is between him and e. One of those two just had to be scum

I'm town, I think e is town.

And finally my wagon analysis stuff from yesterday might be helpful to you.

[Haddock]

Can you guys each make a case for each other being scum?

Only just saw this.

I'll do it when I get a chance.

[2.71828.....]

Haddock's play in this game has been good.  He gets some pressure early, posts a lot of content, and is generally useful.  He keeps this up throughout the game.  But still, a couple things really demonstrate how he is scum

1) Interaction with WW.  He has a wonderful time fighting with WW.  I mean, he makes a point of finding WW scummy throughout D2, when WW has no chance at all of being lynched.  I mean, he never even votes for WW.  And now he has all the town points in the world for it.  I mean, his most recent posts make a point of capitalizing on that:

Iguana made a lot of sense: Do you really think that I'm scum being consistently tunneled by my partner?

Except...WW didn't necessarily do that.  Yes, he had Haddock as scum several times throughout the game, but always switched off.

After being on Haddock D1:

Well, I don't agree.

How are you feeling about Haddock right now?

His big post felt townie.

I'm not seeing anything to make me want to go away from Chairs.

Hm.. Haddock dropping in townread a little, more nullish.  Iguana is feeling a little scummy.  Gkrieg too. Wouldn't want to lynch ADK; he's being productive.  I don't have a read on Awaclus, but you know, never a bad time to lynch an Awaclus.  RR is as hard to read as usual.  I don't have a read on e.

After being on Haddock D2 and Haddock gets to L-2, we get an unvote before he goes and rereads and 'finds Haddock scummy for a bunch of things' yet concludes.....

Lynch today should be Iguana or Gkrieg.

So, yeah, their interaction has a feel of "getting tunneled all game" but was it really?  No, it wasn't.

2) Wagon Analysis.  I mean, let me just drop it right here.  Haddock did all the work for me

Vote Count 2.1
RR: (2) Awaclus, Haddock (L-2)
Haddock: (2) WW, iguana (L-2)

I tunneled RR pretty hard.  Derp.  Awa has been doing so too.  I know I look bad, and so Awa does too.  But I'm town, so maybe Awa is too.
WW and igu on me.  That's several wagons on town players WW has started.  (Chairs and me). 

Vote Count 2.2
RR: (3) Awaclus, Haddock, iguana (L-1)
Haddock: (2) WW, gkrieg (L-2)
gkrieg: (1) 2.7
iguana: (1) RR

II on RR. 
If we suppose gkrieg is town then e looks bad.

Vote Count 2.3
RR: (2) Awaclus, iguana (L-2)
Haddock: (2) gkrieg, 2.7 (L-2)
iguana: (1) RR
gkrieg: (1) Haddock

OK so WW and e have both been keen on my lynch this game. 
conf!town!RR votes iguana.

Vote Count 2.4
RR: (2) Awaclus, iguana (L-2)
iguana: (1) RR
gkrieg: (2) Haddock, 2.7 (L-2)
WW: (1) gkrieg

OK so if WW is scum I'd say gkrieg almost certainly isn't, at this point. (This and other wagon positions)

Final Day2 Vote Count
RR: (4) Awaclus, iguana, Haddock, gkrieg
iguana: (1) RR
gkrieg: (1) 2.7

Conjecture: There is exactly one scum on RR's lynch. 
Further conjecture: It's probably not Awaclus, therefore gkrieg or II.

Then what he didn't have:

Final Day1 Vote Count

RR: (4) Haddock, iguanaiguana, chairs, Awaclus
chairs: (5) WW, 2.7, ADK, RR, gkrieg

Not Voting: (0)

Haddock talks about WW leading wagons against town, but Haddock was just as bad.  In fact....wait a second....both Haddock and WW led the wagons for the major lynches on D1 and D2.  I mean, yeah, you can criticize me for my positions on wagons, but this isn't about me right now.  Haddock is trying to use some revisionist history to talk about wagon positions and find me scummy for them, when the only "scummy" wagon position that he has me on is himself.  Well, also chairs.

----

I mean, Haddock has had a good game.  He has done exactly what is necessary to survive doing some super scummy stuff.  You know, all that stuff WW called him out for.  There is a reason WW called his partner scummy all game but then made sure that the trigger was never pulled on him.  Because he is scum.

[2.71828.....]

As for a defense of myself.  Look at those same two things that Haddock is scummy for.  My position on WW and his position on me.  And the voting record.  WW and I were basically the same person this game.  We both vote Haddock, we both vote chairs, neither of us like the RR lynch.  I townread WW all game, didn't interact with him really at all - because I was pursuing other lynches.  Yeah, I should have noticed that more and thrown in some reads on WW, but I was too busy going after scum!Haddock and (regrettably) mislynching chairs.

[gkrieg13]

overall a strong case, but a very weak defense. 

townreading and not interacting with scum is very scummy.

[2.71828.....]

overall a strong case, but a very weak defense. 

townreading and not interacting with scum is very scummy.

I mean, WW didn't play a scummy game. The only reason he got caught was because iguana tracked him. That tracking is what is going to win us the game, not because we played super amazing. Scum did a great job confusing or reads refocusing us on the wrong lynches.  You know, like haddock spearheaded with the RR lynch. Or WW being big on chairs

[gkrieg13]

I'm rereading tomorrow and voting at night so haddock you have until then

[Haddock]

I'm rereading tomorrow and voting at night so haddock you have until then

That's fine. I will be making a case tomorrow morning. This evening turned into a whole thing, personal issues, hence not making a case tonight.

[Haddock]

My stuff for today comes to you in three parts.
1) A response to e's case.
2) A case on e.
3) A general defense of myself.


Part 1.

1) ... He has a wonderful time fighting with WW.  I mean, he makes a point of finding WW scummy throughout D2, when WW has no chance at all of being lynched.  I mean, he never even votes for WW.  And now he has all the town points in the world for it. 

This is false.  I hope that my most recent posts demonstrate my evolving scum read on WW.  I was never quite confident enough to actually vote.  My wagon positioning stuff was when I really started to gain confidence in the read.  I think I would have voted WW not long afterwards even if iguana hadn't come out and confirmed it. 

Except...WW didn't necessarily do that.  Yes, he had Haddock as scum several times throughout the game, but always switched off.
After being on Haddock D1:

Well, I don't agree.

How are you feeling about Haddock right now?

His big post felt townie.

I'm not seeing anything to make me want to go away from Chairs.

This is one time he unvoted me.  If you reread the rest you'll see he did actually tunnel me pretty hard.  I mean, come on.  He starts the wagon on me as his FIRST D2 post. 
Plus, of COURSE he unvoted me at that point.  Scum always feel pressured to unvote if a townie they're voting for makes a good post. 

There is a reason WW called his partner scummy all game but then made sure that the trigger was never pulled on him.  Because he is scum.

There is a reason WW gave e a townread all game.  Because it's a small game with only two scum and that's surely the safe play in such a small game.  No way does scum risk bussing each other when there's only two of them.  So WW and e give each other townreads.  Because e is scum.

End part 1.

[Haddock]

Part 2.

So e starts the game with a pretty scummy opening post.  An "adventures" pun, sure, all in good fun, but I really think this:

and we have an L-2?  good times.

as his first real post indicates a scummy mindset.

He then proceeds to vote for me for a terrible reason, which (note carefully), WW sheeps immediately.

Vote: haddock

Sure, that vote was rvs, but the method of unvote and the whole feel of the post leans scum

Vote: Haddock

Already they've got me in their sights.  I've already explained how e and WW have played the clever game by pushing me, they know that I'll shy away from giving them scumreads for it.

He starts pushing chairs shortly after, which is him sheeping WW right back.

He then proceeds to actually vote chairs, and hedges hard on me to make up for it.

Vote: chairs

I like haddock's defense. I am not entirely convinced he is town, but it is enough to look elsewhere for now.

He and WW are really driving the chairs wagon for a lot of D1.  It's a bold tactic, and just the sort of thing scum!e and scum!WW must love to do.  WW makes enigmatic votes for people, sitting back as usual, and then e, the typically more vocal player, steps in and starts leading town down the path. 
They play the clever game with respect to the RR lynch.  It starts to happen, and they leave it alone, knowing some idiot townies ( :S )  will get the lynch through without them eventually.  e actually does a great job of saying almost nothing about the RR wagon for D1.  He keeps his distance from it, but decides he wants to give it one gentle prod over the edge in this post, wanting an RR lynch to go through with neither of them onwagon.

Why chairs? So what, he's jokey. I'm jokey and I don't get lynched. I've contributed nothing but a case on ADK that no one cared about, but no one seems to want to lynch me.

This is an odd defense. And what? You made a case on adk? Totally missed that. Probably because it wasn't that much of a "case." (Went and found it)

It's nearly enough - ADK has intent to hammer RR before the chairs lynch goes through.


D2 starts with WW tunneling me again, and e sheeping him:

I agree RR is a good start for tomorrow if chairs is town. But let's see what happens.

But yeah. This is bad

He doesn't actually vote me for quite a while, but keeps pushing me, and votes me eventually.

I will go vote: gkrieg for now with haddock as my #2

Vote: haddock

Note the similarities to D1.  He wants RR lynched, but distances himself from it by pushing another towny.  (chairs/me D1, just me D2).

I think this is pretty telling:

I am leaning toward gkrieg/WW. I recognize the result cleats gkrieg of taking an action on N1, but with his hammer out is totally possible that scum (knowing most of the setup) elected to not use their action. Especially since the cop was lynched D1 and not great probability of hitting the last town pr.

I can totally see haddock as scum, but every time I say that he convinces me again to postpone and vote elsewhere. Maybe just good scum play but going for just plain town

He knows he can't find me scummy any more because tracker!II finds me towny, so he declares me town with no good explanation given.  He's been vocally finding me scummy for ages, and then suddenly yoyos.    He's running out of options, so he pushes you even with results that clear you!
Iguana sums it up

Um? Case closed? e stumbling over his own words here should basically confirm him as scum with WW.

There's lots of pieces to that, but it forms a tidy narrative.  In a small game like this, scum have to stick together, bussing is hugely risky.  So they sheep each other and give townreads to each other, hoping (and it would have worked without Iguana around!) people will see WW as his usual enigmatic self with e leading town as usual.  They are relying on the "surely scum would not be so blatant!" argument.  And it nearly works - scum!WW/scum!e don't even start occurring to people until a decent way in.
Their play with respect to RR is very clever too.  Both of them distance themselves from the RR lynch and give townreads, but just prod him occasionally, pointing out oddities, to keep momentum going on his lynch.  And we all fall for it.  Me more than anyone, but more on that in part 3. 
e makes the case for me:

WW and I were basically the same person this game.  We both vote Haddock, we both vote chairs, neither of us like the RR lynch.  I townread WW all game, didn't interact with him really at all - because I was pursuing other lynches.

This is exactly what a 2-person scum team has to do in a small game like this.  Stick together and do the same thing, work as a unit.  You can't afford to be at each other's throats, there's too much at stake.

End part 2.

[Haddock]

Part 3.  Defense of myself.

I have done one big scummy thing this game, which was pushing RR so hard.  I can't say much about it, it was a terrible read, but no more so that e (+WW, don't forget) on chairs.  My best defense is my recent games.  If I was ever able to read RR, my ability to do so has been evaporating lately.  I went for an RR lynch in Untitled Mafia, thinking as I did here that he was being different, and in general I've been finding him scummy more and more.  Oh for the days when I was the main proponent of finding RR towny.

That really is my only scummy thing from me this game.  Otherwise I have contributed much more usefully than e, been open about my reads and my play.  My interaction with WW and my evolving scumread on him came completely naturally, as I've explained a fair bit I guess.  I hope that my previous posts on that matter have been convincing. 

If you feel like it, you can also read my scum games.  I have never ever faked a townslip.  I simply don't have the confidence in my own ability as a scum player to try such a thing.  Iguana pointed out two townslips of mine, I believe
a) my forgetting about Awaclus being dead and
b) my post where I say that scum deserve to win.
I don't believe I would ever fake such things as scum.  I certainly never have so far.  So there's that.


I think that's all I have to say.  Gkrieg, from what you've said it seems your instinct is leading you towards thinking e is scum.  Trust your gut.  I haven't played the best game ever, but there's town motivation for everything I've done.  Because I'm town. 

[2.71828.....]

Just read me in hearthstone where I am scum with teproc

Read me in village mafia where our entire scum plan was bussing.

Read me in death note mafia where I helped 'lynch' my partner D1

But focus on hearthstone. Those other two games were alittle weird. But in hearthstone, Teproc and I had "scum reads" on each other the whole game, yet always found another lynch. In fact, after reading through it myself, my game there looks very similar to haddock here. MVP worthy job there.

[2.71828.....]

MVP worthy job there.

For haddock this game if he pulls this off. I mean, I go back to this: what can you never lie about? Votes. Look at the votes. There is absolutely no way I follow my partner around like what happened with WW and myself.

[2.71828.....]

I mean, Haddock even argues I am scum because we developed this strategy of "WW and I would not be so blatant."  I mean, sure. But when has the "too scummy to be scum" argument ever worked? Almost never. I can start arguing that I was way too obvious and I would never play like that and follow WW/he follows me thing, but the truth is that I thought WW was town. He had some reads that I thought we good. Haddock's posturing at the end of D1 was scummy. He got called out for it. His opening stuff not so much, but wagons are townie and I like to build them early.

Haddock likes to gloss over his actual scummy play and focus solely on the RR thing. Great. That doesn't take away from other scummy things he did like posturing for a gkrieg mislynch at the end of D1.

[2.71828.....]

Because you know what scum can do better than anyone else? Have accurate reads. In a hand like this I totally disagree that the safest play for scum is ignoring each other. It is easier to argue and fight. It creates natural responses that feel townie....especially after a flip.

[2.71828.....]

And Haddock loves pointing out his 'townslip.'  I mean, what about mine? I didn't get any credit for it (iguana called me scummy for it), but not connecting the dots on gkrieg is a town slip just as much as forgetting that awaclus was killed. I mean, really. I don't think I should get town points for what I did there, and Haddock definitely shouldn't get town points for forgetting awaclus was dead. It is the same thing. Reading.

[Haddock]

But focus on hearthstone. Those other two games were alittle weird. But in hearthstone, Teproc and I had "scum reads" on each other the whole game, yet always found another lynch. In fact, after reading through it myself, my game there looks very similar to haddock here. MVP worthy job there.

Why would you choose to always do the same thing as scum?  Oh that's right, you wouldn't.  You'd want to change up from time to time, do something different.  Precisely so that you can make this kind of argument.

MVP worthy job there.

For haddock this game if he pulls this off. I mean, I go back to this: what can you never lie about? Votes. Look at the votes. There is absolutely no way I follow my partner around like what happened with WW and myself.

Yes you would.  In a small game like this it's totally legitimate for a scum team to stick together like that.  Particularly a team with personalities as different as yours.  It would (and did) take forever for people to notice that you're pushing for the same thing in different ways.

I mean, Haddock even argues I am scum because we developed this strategy of "WW and I would not be so blatant."  I mean, sure. But when has the "too scummy to be scum" argument ever worked? Almost never. I can start arguing that I was way too obvious and I would never play like that and follow WW/he follows me thing, but the truth is that I thought WW was town.

I'm saying you were forced to rely on that.  You had to stick together because the game was so small.  And then you were forced to just hope that you looked too obvious to be scum.

He had some reads that I thought we good. Haddock's posturing at the end of D1 was scummy. He got called out for it.

Complete rubbish.  I've already mentioned how WW's calling me out for my chairs stuff at the end of D1 was not a good reason to vote me, and you look bad for sheeping him on it.

Haddock likes to gloss over his actual scummy play and focus solely on the RR thing. Great. That doesn't take away from other scummy things he did like posturing for a gkrieg mislynch at the end of D1.

Funny how your entire case earlier revolved around my pushing RR and now all of a sudden I was scummy in some other way?  How exactly? 
As for the gkrieg thing, I assume you're talking about me saying how scummy that hammer looked?  Well it did look pretty scummy.  I stand by that.  (Sorry gkrieg, but it did).

And Haddock loves pointing out his 'townslip.'  I mean, what about mine? I didn't get any credit for it (iguana called me scummy for it), but not connecting the dots on gkrieg is a town slip just as much as forgetting that awaclus was killed.

Man, forgetting Awaclus was dead is much much more of a townslip. 

What you did was intentionally try to throw shade on gkrieg and muddy the waters in the aftermath of the claim.  Completely different thing.
But heck, don't believe me.  Iguana had it right.

[2.71828.....]

I agree RR is a good start for tomorrow if chairs is town. But let's see what happens.

But yeah. This is bad

I mean, I posted this first. He had his vote down but Gabe no reasons. I totally didn't sheep WW on this.

[2.71828.....]

I agree RR is a good start for tomorrow if chairs is town. But let's see what happens.

But yeah. This is bad

I mean, I posted this first. He had his vote down but Gabe no reasons. I totally didn't sheep WW on this.

*gave

[2.71828.....]

But focus on hearthstone. Those other two games were alittle weird. But in hearthstone, Teproc and I had "scum reads" on each other the whole game, yet always found another lynch. In fact, after reading through it myself, my game there looks very similar to haddock here. MVP worthy job there.

Why would you choose to always do the same thing as scum?  Oh that's right, you wouldn't.  You'd want to change up from time to time, do something different.  Precisely so that you can make this kind of argument.

MVP worthy job there.

For haddock this game if he pulls this off. I mean, I go back to this: what can you never lie about? Votes. Look at the votes. There is absolutely no way I follow my partner around like what happened with WW and myself.

Yes you would.  In a small game like this it's totally legitimate for a scum team to stick together like that.  Particularly a team with personalities as different as yours.  It would (and did) take forever for people to notice that you're pushing for the same thing in different ways.

I mean, Haddock even argues I am scum because we developed this strategy of "WW and I would not be so blatant."  I mean, sure. But when has the "too scummy to be scum" argument ever worked? Almost never. I can start arguing that I was way too obvious and I would never play like that and follow WW/he follows me thing, but the truth is that I thought WW was town.

I'm saying you were forced to rely on that.  You had to stick together because the game was so small.  And then you were forced to just hope that you looked too obvious to be scum.

Yeah, I am so meta right now. I just change up styles to confuse town for later games. To be honest, not really talking about ww at all is not in my meta as town either. But my point here: no way we lynched WW D1 or D2. If I were scum I would totally build a case or something on him while gleefully mislynching all sorts of people. RR, chairs, Haddock, gkrieg.....all possible town mislynches over the course of D1 and D2.

Just read hearthstone. Meta arguments suck, but they are a thing

[Haddock]

I agree RR is a good start for tomorrow if chairs is town. But let's see what happens.

But yeah. This is bad

I mean, I posted this first. He had his vote down but Gabe no reasons. I totally didn't sheep WW on this.

You're right, I have the order wrong.

But either way.  Between you and WW, you gave two reasons for pushing me there. 

One (finding me scummy for saying I think RR is scummy) looks vaguely legitimate now because RR is conftown.  But at the time it wasn't a legit reason.  I was putting a read out there, which is never a scummy thing to do.  (even if the read ends up wrong)

The other (finding me scummy because I was discussing the hypothetical situation in which chairs was town) is just total crap, and I said so at the time.  The fact that you and WW both proceeded to push me on this point just looks terrible, because it's not a remotely good case.
I like to use the twilight to the fullest extent possible.  In this case that meant discussing how things stood in the potential bad scenario that chairs was town.  That's a completely towny thing to do, and "calling me out on it" is not a thing, because doing what I did is not scummy.

PPE. It's very simple.  If you're aware that your scum meta is one way, then changing it for one game is obviously to your benefit.  You are more than capable of making such a change.  Indeed you have for this entire game, well done.
And no.  It doesn't work like that.  It's not like in some games scum just go round rampantly mislynching people and in others they stay off all the mislynches.  They do a bit of both, like in this game where you and WW were on the chairs mislynch but off the RR one.

[gkrieg13]

Sorry e but if you aren't scum I really don't think I was ever voting for haddock

vote: e