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Author Topic: Wandering Winder's new Swindler article  (Read 5604 times)

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JW

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Wandering Winder's new Swindler article
« on: March 24, 2016, 03:09:58 pm »
+4

Here is Wandering Winder's new Swindler article.

Swindler
Swindler is a card which I've long rated very highly. It is cheap, and in the best case, incredibly devastating. However, recently it has lost a lot of its luster in my eyes. Let's break it down.

Starting Off
Swindler is terminal. This should give you some amount of hesitancy in opening Swindler/Swindler. On the other hand, the attack can be very powerful, so it's not crazy to think that it might be worth risking the collision. There are 2 main general factors here: how much does the collision hurt you, and how good is the attack?

Checking the opening percentages, we can see that compared to Swindler/Silver, by opening double Swindler you're losing 19% chance to hit 5 at least once, and a couple percent to go 5/5. You're also nearly 25% less likely to hit $6 (all of these figures are for turns 3/4 and assume no funny business from opponent giving you cards or stealing them from your deck, or spy attacking you, etc. - though it's important to note that without some kind of spy effect, their Swindler attack doesn't change these numbers for turns 3 and 4). You have a 37.9% chance to attack them twice, and a 98.5% chance to attack them at least once, up from 0% and 83.3% respectively. This means that by opening double Swindler, you get slightly more than .2 fewer 5-costs and slightly less than .25 fewer 6-costs (if you want those), and in return, you get .53 more Swindler plays.

To figure out whether or not that's worth it, you need to gauge how important hitting 5 (or 6) is, and how much the attack is worth. Let's go after the attack first: 7/12 (58%) of the time, you're hitting a Copper, which you will always be turning into curse. Copper into Curse is very good in the early game, because coppers are a huge part of the economy. 1/4 of the time, you're hitting Estate. This is really bad - worse than silver since it skips their estate for them. Indeed, you're always cycling early game, which is not good for you, though the appeal of the good cases is definitely enough to overcome that. Still, a quarter of the time it's actively bad. The last 1/6 of games, we are hitting their buys. How good this is varies a LOT from board to board, as when there's something really bad (used to be true more than it is now, but note that it's effectively always true for 5-costs by going into Duchy), this is very good. But sometimes you're e.g. turning Swindler into Silver, which is a downgrade, but a minor one.

Money Paragraph
So though I've gone for double Swindler in a huge percentage of games I've played where that was an option, I now think that this is usually incorrect, that Swindler/Silver is often better. The cases for this are when there's a key 5 or 6 you want to get early. The cases where doubling down on terminals is better include those times where there's something bad at every price point, and of course when the 4s are not much worse than the 5s. I also want to note here that Swindler/Swindler is a decent amount better (in a relative sense) 'on the draw' (i.e. as 2nd player), since you are more likely to hit a key card (on turn 4, your opponent has more total bought cards in their deck). Since hitting these cards is the best thing you can  usually do, that is a noteworthy if not huge boost.

Later On
Swindler is a fine card later in the game, but it tends to not be special. Hitting estates is still bad. Hitting Copper turns from being very good (denying a good fraction of economy) to being very mediocre, as one copper into a curse doesn't matter so much at the mid-stage, and the fact that you skip the copper for them starts being a non-negligible fraction of that penalty. The simple way to look at it is, there are just fewer shuffles left for the junk to be junk, so one shuffle of skipping the junk is a bigger fraction of the total times that your opponent has to draw it for the remainder of the game.

Hitting important cards can still be quite good, but very often the opponent's deck has a lot of redundancy, so that messing one thing up is not too terribly difficult to correct with future buys. This is particularly true of a well-established engine, where they can just re-buy whatever component you're denying, and given that they're drawing lots of cards almost every turn, they get to do so quite quickly. If you play many Swindlers in a turn, it can still be very good, since it's much harder to deal with something like 4 extra terminals all-of-a-sudden, but if you are really having the chance to play 4 of a terminal payload card in a turn, there's often going to be an alternative that's better.

Strategically
Swindler is a card which really wants you to be keeping track of knowing your opponent's deck. Knowing what you're going to hit can be very nice at times (though unless you have a Spy effect, you usually only have some probability cloud of a guess). More importantly, though,you want to know what card is going to be worst for their deck. Do they have too many terminals? Not enough payload? Are they lacking +buy? Something I don't see often enough from other players, but which I feel like I do often, is giving my opponent a card and then buying the exact same card. Sure, sometimes there's a Thief on the board, and you just give them that every time because it's terrible, but especially as with more expansions we've had fewer 'bad' cards, it's more often the case that you want to give them a marginal card, and you want to make sure it's the most marginal one for their specific deck.

One place where a Swindler-heavy strategy can really work out is in an Aggro Pile deck. It's a disruptive card that slows the opponent down, and it can also take chunks out of piles. It's usually pretty hard to make this your game plan from the start, because you have little control over what you hit, but it's something to be aware of as the course of the game progresses. If piles get low enough, especially depending on your position in terms of luck and deck quality has unfolded, you might want to start angling to get that pile ending, applying pressure to either seal up a short-term advantage (most likely in points) or hoping to get lucky because you're in a very bad spot. If you get in this situation, you need to be very careful about how much you lower piles and what you do in terms of points. If you start spinning the points angle too early, then your opponent's better deck will have time to crush you. But if you continue to slam your opponent with Duchies as you are also depleting piles, this may well turn out poorly for you as well.....

Defenses
The most obvious defense you can take is to buy cards only on values where there's nothing really bad to Swindle into. You usually can't/shouldn't really make a go of this, as 5 always has Duchy, but 5-costs also tend to be really good and important to get. You should not take a big hit in card quality just to try to avoid something getting swindled, especially since it's far more likely for you to draw and use the card than for the card to get swindled. What you should do, though, is be willing to take some very marginal downgrades. The obvious kinds of examples here are something like Village over Walled Village when Thief is on the board and you aren't relying on the Walled bonus (which you almost never are). In general, 3s tend to be safer, as there aren't tons of very bad 3s, though 4s, 7s, and potion-costs are potentially actually the safest, in those cases where they're the only card at that price point available (though you do have to worry about running the pile out). Super marginal cantrips are things you can think about avoiding altogether. Pearl Diver is really the poster boy here - the chance to get turned into Estate is sometimes quite bad. On the other hand, having these means other things are less likely to get hit, so you need to figure out whether you're more in need of protecting your few key cards ("Good Stuff" decks often fall here) or staying clean and not getting yourself junked up (engines hate having an extra estate).

More importantly as defenses come other cursing attacks. It's certainly possible to get both these AND Swindler, but when the curses run out, you risk turning them back into coppers, which is very bad - at this point in the game you usually would much prefer Silver to Swindler, and because this point will come, you need to seriously consider whether the early spurt of attacking effectiveness from a 0th shuffle Swindler is worth it.

There are a number of other minor defenses. Moat and Lighthouse work about as well as they ever do (though they can get turned into Estates I suppose - this usually isn't a deciding factor though). Silver flood decks shrug Swindler off fairly well - often they give you a silver back, and worst case you're getting like a Chancellor, which really isn't that bad when you're silver-flooding. Jack of All Trades and Hermit are particularly good, since getting Coppers turned into Curses actually makes them trashable, when otherwise they wouldn't be. Against those cards, you usually skip Swindler, though I will note that if you do Swindle a copper in those cases, you should almost certainly go ahead and give the Curse. Cards with on-trash benefits help defend a fair amount (usually), but it's quite a situational thing. Be on the lookout for them, though.

Overall:
Swindler is a strong card. When cheap options are good compared to expensive ones, and especially when there are bad things to stick people with, going for multiples can be good. This can lead to pile outs, but you need to have lots of game awareness.

More often, you will get one as an annoying attack that helps you ramp up early on. There's quite a bit of variance in the card, but that doesn't mean it's bad.
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Roadrunner7671

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Re: Wandering Winder's new Swindler article
« Reply #1 on: March 24, 2016, 03:20:32 pm »
+4

I don't want to start more drama, but why are these being posted? If WW wanted them here, he has lots of accounts he could use.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Wandering Winder's new Swindler article
« Reply #2 on: March 24, 2016, 03:37:42 pm »
+10

I don't want to start more drama, but why are these being posted? If WW wanted them here, he has lots of accounts he could use.

What makes you think he's not using one?
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Re: Wandering Winder's new Swindler article
« Reply #3 on: March 24, 2016, 03:56:26 pm »
+3

You can't talk about Swindler without mentioning variance.  The 9.87% (rough guess) opportunity of turning your opponents first key $5 cost card into a Duchy can often be game changing and even game winning depending on the board.  Being able to change the likely outcome (given equal skill) from 50 - 50 to over 80-90 in your favor is huge. 

This is argument for going double Swindler.  You give yourself an extra swing of the bat to get that home run.  For that reason alone I think just considering single Swindler vs. double Swinlder needs to consider more than just probability to hit $5 twice or $6 once.  If you go double Swindler and don't get $5 twice or don't get a Gold, and instead get a $3 or $4 cost card are your chances of winning worse given that you have more opportunities to remove key cards early?
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faust

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Re: Wandering Winder's new Swindler article
« Reply #4 on: March 24, 2016, 04:08:09 pm »
+2

I don't want to start more drama, but why are these being posted? If WW wanted them here, he has lots of accounts he could use.

Why would they not be posted? They're good articles, and why would we not have good articles here? The only things I can think of are petty reasons like "he left us, now we don't want anything to do with him", and well that's stupid. The only issue I can see is that WW maybe doesn't want them here, so that should be checked with him first.
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faust

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Re: Wandering Winder's new Swindler article
« Reply #5 on: March 24, 2016, 04:09:41 pm »
0

You can't talk about Swindler without mentioning variance.  The 9.87% (rough guess) opportunity of turning your opponents first key $5 cost card into a Duchy can often be game changing and even game winning depending on the board.  Being able to change the likely outcome (given equal skill) from 50 - 50 to over 80-90 in your favor is huge. 

For that reason, I think opening Swindler/Swindler is more often a good move if you go second.
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navical

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Re: Wandering Winder's new Swindler article
« Reply #6 on: March 24, 2016, 04:29:52 pm »
+1

For that reason, I think opening Swindler/Swindler is more often a good move if you go second.

I also want to note here that Swindler/Swindler is a decent amount better (in a relative sense) 'on the draw' (i.e. as 2nd player), since you are more likely to hit a key card (on turn 4, your opponent has more total bought cards in their deck). Since hitting these cards is the best thing you can  usually do, that is a noteworthy if not huge boost.
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Re: Wandering Winder's new Swindler article
« Reply #7 on: March 24, 2016, 05:00:41 pm »
0

I don't want to start more drama, but why are these being posted? If WW wanted them here, he has lots of accounts he could use.

Everyone is Wandering Winder.
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Re: Wandering Winder's new Swindler article
« Reply #8 on: March 24, 2016, 05:19:26 pm »
0

I don't want to start more drama, but why are these being posted? If WW wanted them here, he has lots of accounts he could use.

Everyone is Wandering Winder.

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Re: Wandering Winder's new Swindler article
« Reply #9 on: March 24, 2016, 06:00:16 pm »
+1

Just a few things off the top of my head:
- Top deck attacks deserve more of a mention. Specifically, Scyring Pool.  SP is just so, so, so good with Swindler (and even better with Jester, but I digress).
- Peddler deserves a mention in the "defense" category, as often times Peddlers run out, in which case playing Swindler becomes very risky.
- Bad players love Swindler because they can "get lucky" with it (by hitting opponent's key $5's early, as mentioned), stealing a win from good players.

Good article. :)  I like seeing the percentages with the openings.  And the "how bad is not getting $5 early / how good is the Swindle attack" makes sense.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2016, 06:21:05 pm by Dingan »
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Davio

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Re: Wandering Winder's new Swindler article
« Reply #10 on: March 25, 2016, 08:47:52 am »
0

Peddlers are interesting because you can also turn early Provinces into Peddlers.
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Re: Wandering Winder's new Swindler article
« Reply #11 on: March 25, 2016, 02:28:38 pm »
0

what scares me the most is swindler on strong engine boards, because you just can't trust that engine to stay in one piece for the whole game and i don't know how to plan around that other than "get even more stuff before greening than normal"

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Re: Wandering Winder's new Swindler article
« Reply #12 on: March 25, 2016, 02:41:20 pm »
0

what scares me the most is swindler on strong engine boards, because you just can't trust that engine to stay in one piece for the whole game and i don't know how to plan around that other than "get even more stuff before greening than normal"

You can hit his crap too. Greening with Provinces is better early than late I would think (though not great), since a rogue Swindler might hit Province and make it harder for your opponent to come back.
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jomini

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Re: Wandering Winder's new Swindler article
« Reply #13 on: March 26, 2016, 01:23:34 pm »
+2

The article fails to mention one of the stronger options for Swindler defense - scaling TfB. Losing a $5 to a duchy is big when it is an expensive curse for the rest of the game. With an Upgrade, hey you can turn it into a gold or a Nobles to heavily mitigate the damage. All of the hard trashing scaling TfBs - like Upgrade, Remake, and Develop get a lot better when you will have a few Duchies or Potions that you absolutely want to turn into something else. Even Bishop is pretty nice as you at least get a decent value out for some nasty trade offs. With the broad Remodel family, you can threaten a lot more expensive piles, particularly if you have a viable engine. Transmog is exceedingly good here early game as you can undo Swindler without having to line up an early Duchy and the TfB.

They also make it much easier to do the worst Swindler damage, which oddly enough is itself not mentioned. Regardless of the cards out, once the province pile is empty Swindler hits are -6VP. Sure you have the massive strength of Kc-Swindler engines where you burn through 6 or 9 cards hoping to hit two provinces, but if you can gain the last province and then do a few Swindles you can steal the game back. Sometimes this is easy - City/Rabble/Swindler/Remodel deck can support a lot of Swindler plays and you have really high odds of killing provinces if you gain the last one via Remodel. As this is one of the very few ways you can destroy opponent points there are many cases where your only possible chance of winning is mass Swindling his VP. Sure it rarely wins you a game, but a 1% chance is better than none.

I also find it odd that Alt-VP is not mentioned here. Swindler is devastating to Alt-VP, but only if you play it well. Gardens decks are a rare case were you want to stop swindling coppers -> curses. A Gardens rush is a crap shoot with Swindler. If we figure 36 - 44 cards in a typical non-mirror Gardens rush, that works out to around a 1/5 chance of hitting Gardens without support only on the last shuffle or two. Against a well played Gardens rush, you will expect to kill maybe two-three Gardens. Emptying the curse pile means you either need to be greening pretty fast or you need the game to last. Likewise, Estate -> Estate is pretty bad for Gardens rushes. That being said, you can destroy a Gardens rush if you can preferentially hit Gardens or Gardens enablers. Also if the Gardens player piles some cost (normally $2, sometimes $4) you can get good mileage from crushing those.

Fairgrounds is a bit trickier, on the one hand anything can be a good hit if you decrease their unique count, but it is hard to gauge when do you want to give a better card (e.g. Pirate ship -> Quarry in a Procession deck) vs kill a unique. Deck tracking is very valuable if you know when they can easily gain a card you just got them. Killing Fairgrounds directly is of course pretty nice but you are giving back the gold which is halfway to replacing the Fairground; if you opponent goes green too quickly you almost always want to compound his mistake - give him another Fairground if he was going to buy it anyways.

Silk road is arguably the easiest Alt-VP, just trashing green goes a long ways but do consider when you want to start going from E -> E to E -> $2. With some power $2, like Squire, waiting a bit is good. Duke is a bit of a mixed bag, you absolutely want to kill Duchies, but giving your opponent Dukes is a high risk/high reward option. 2 Duchies and 8 Dukes is just 24  VP so if you can limit your opponent's total duchy gains, going to Duke is quite strong, particularly in the early-mid game. On the other hand, you risk being forced to convert the Dukes back or having your opponent get enough Duchies to win. It can be worth it just to mill the Duchies down so you can later flip those to ever less valuable Dukes. Swapping out to bad kingdom $5 (like Sab) is a gimmee, but you often face a complicated dance of early favoring Duchies, later going for Duke and finally hitting lots of $5 actions.

Distant lands, Nobles, Great hall, Island, etc. are fairly similar. In general if they gained these in the manner which afforded them the most freedom (e.g. bought them instead of Forging them), then you want to flip them to something else unless you want the lower VP piles or you believe your opponent has made an error. Late enough Dlands, of course, should become more Dlands if you have no actions instead of Duchies. Farmland can be considered a small Swindler defense (as can a lot of cards with on-buy effects), gaining something nice helps.

Feoda is the only Alt-VP that can really crush Swindler. Normally you are getting excess silver from somewhere so as noted Swindler is not that great. Secondly giving out 3 Silvers + a $4 is very nice, particularly if the $4 is not complete garbage. The other guy going Swindler is a very strong reason to consider going Feoda.

On-trash effects are amazingly good against Swindler. Market square, Fort, and Squire can all be extremely nice at making Swindler's trashing painful. Cultist works a decent bit like a curser, particularly as Swindler/Cultist can quickly drop two piles, but +cards is very nice even if you just get a Duchy. Catacombs mitigates its troubles (particularly if your village or draw is <$5) nicely.  And on a Dark Ages note, Swindler loses a decent bit of oomph if he trashes Shelters instead of just flipping Estates, a bad Swindler hit on an early estate Shelter does a very nice bit for increasing cash density.

Lastly, Swindler is one of the very few cards where Secret chamber is actually a decent defense. I played a Scham/Fort/Swindler match and it was brutal using Scham to top deck Forts but even Estates are nice. Leaving Estate + Scham on deck top makes Swindler worse than a terminal Silver a lot of the time.


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DG

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Re: Wandering Winder's new Swindler article
« Reply #14 on: March 26, 2016, 05:58:02 pm »
0

Swindler is a complicated card that changes a kingdom and how it should it should played. As such, the article is a quite comprehensive, quite good, but still leaves things out.

In multiplayer the incoming damage to your deck  is much more severe and you need to rely much more on safe cards that don't have a damaging swindle. That's typically gold and it's gold that buys provinces. Silver is not so safe as opponents can deliberately fill your deck with terminal actions that you often can't play, including extra swindlers. It's a big risk to rely on key cards that are not safe from swindles. Piles can also run fast in multiplayer, possibly estates, curses, and swindlers themselves, so you need to consider building towards an early lead.

Trashing bad cards out of your deck will immediately increase the chance that your opponent will hit your good cards with future swindles. This means that your trashing either needs to give you solid control of your deck (so that you can work through any damage) or your deck needs to remain productive while you are trashing.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2016, 06:00:09 pm by DG »
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