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Author Topic: The Necro Wars  (Read 353144 times)

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silverspawn

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #6725 on: March 28, 2024, 06:29:01 pm »

Have made relatively few stupid decisions lately I think

Awaclus

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #6726 on: March 28, 2024, 06:34:00 pm »

Have made relatively few stupid decisions lately I think

Was posting the Lab with the OP alternative win con one of them?
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silverspawn

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #6727 on: March 28, 2024, 06:45:11 pm »

It was really funny in my head :(

silverspawn

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #6728 on: March 28, 2024, 06:47:30 pm »

Quote
Signal has received funding from a variety of sources over the years, including significant initial funding from Brian Acton, one of the co-founders of WhatsApp, who left WhatsApp and invested $50 million to start the Signal Foundation in partnership with Moxie Marlinspike, Signal's original developer. The foundation also accepts donations from the general public, which can be made directly through the Signal app or via its website. These donations are crucial for supporting the development of the app, paying for servers, and covering other operational costs.

That's pretty sick. Yeah Signal vs. Whatsapp really is a textbook case being stuck in a bad Nash Equilibrium. Although idk how bad using whatsapp really is.

Awaclus

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #6729 on: March 28, 2024, 08:26:23 pm »

It's probably the least bad thing related to Meta that isn't FLOSS. Meta claims the messages are E2E encrypted and that's probably true, so they don't know the contents of the messages (they just know everything else, like who you're messaging with and when).
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Awaclus

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #6730 on: March 30, 2024, 07:16:05 pm »

Even numbers are more kiki than odd numbers and odd numbers are more bouba than even numbers. 6, 9, 3 and 8 basically cancel out, and out of the remaining numbers, 1, 2 and 4 are all very kiki, 5 is somewhat bouba, and 7 is not particularly kiki or bouba.
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heron

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #6731 on: April 02, 2024, 01:09:53 am »

Hm, I would have said prime numbers are kiki.
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silverspawn

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #6732 on: April 03, 2024, 03:52:25 pm »

Isn't it crazy that you can literally sever the corpus callosum (primary synaptic connection between both hemispheres) and consciousness is almost unaffected, and none of the academically theories of consciousness bother to have an explanation? Isn't that the just absolutely nuts? It's like if you had a phenomenon where each object spontaneously repairs itself once it's cut for the first time, and all the physicists are like "nah that doesn't seem important; our theory doesn't need to explain that"

Jonatan Djurachkovitch

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #6733 on: April 03, 2024, 04:36:32 pm »

Isn't it crazy that you can literally sever the corpus callosum (primary synaptic connection between both hemispheres) and consciousness is almost unaffected, and none of the academically theories of consciousness bother to have an explanation? Isn't that the just absolutely nuts? It's like if you had a phenomenon where each object spontaneously repairs itself once it's cut for the first time, and all the physicists are like "nah that doesn't seem important; our theory doesn't need to explain that"

That seems hard to explain without invoking an incorporeal soul. InspiringPhilosophy has a really interesting series called "The Irreducable Mind", where he talks about consciousness, and argues for Christian dualism from discoveries like this one. (I would argue philosophically and biblically, a three-part model of human consciousness makes the most sense, but that's another kind of argument.)


Entirely unrelated, have you seen the game Balatro, silverspawn? It's kind of like deckbuilding poker.
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silverspawn

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #6734 on: April 03, 2024, 07:01:23 pm »

Isn't it crazy that you can literally sever the corpus callosum (primary synaptic connection between both hemispheres) and consciousness is almost unaffected, and none of the academically theories of consciousness bother to have an explanation? Isn't that the just absolutely nuts? It's like if you had a phenomenon where each object spontaneously repairs itself once it's cut for the first time, and all the physicists are like "nah that doesn't seem important; our theory doesn't need to explain that"

That seems hard to explain without invoking an incorporeal soul.

The EM field theory explains it! The electromagnetic field doesn't rely on synaptic connections. It's a physical phenomenon, just not a material one.

Agree that a biblical soul also explains it but well that's not a plausible theory in my book. I'm very much a physicalist, in the sense of thinking that the laws of physics exhaustively describe causality in the universe. If you couldn't explain consciousness without invoking religion, that would be one thing, but I think you can.

Entirely unrelated, have you seen the game Balatro, silverspawn? It's kind of like deckbuilding poker.

No, never heard of it. But note that the unique thing about poker is that you can play it for money; it's not a game I'd study if it were just for fun.

Awaclus

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #6735 on: April 03, 2024, 09:18:20 pm »

If you couldn't explain consciousness without invoking religion, that would be one thing, but I think you can.

If you can't explain something without invoking religion, you can't explain the thing at all. "We haven't yet discovered the god that is doing this magic" is not a better explanation than "we haven't yet discovered the law of physics that explains this phenomenon", but it is a better explanation than what religions are actually doing, which is to confidently claim that this particular god is doing the magic in this particular way while there are no actual reasons to believe in that hypothesis over any of the other countless imaginable gods and ways for magic to work.
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Jonatan Djurachkovitch

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #6736 on: April 04, 2024, 03:43:29 am »

If you couldn't explain consciousness without invoking religion, that would be one thing, but I think you can.

If you can't explain something without invoking religion, you can't explain the thing at all.

If I understand you correctly, you mean that if the only reasonable explanation for a phenomenon is supernatural, you should automatically dismiss it and search for a natural explanation. I would argue that this is fallacious, "naturalism of the gaps". This methodology doesn't help you at all in finding and knowing about supernatural phenomenon, in case they exist. If you have sufficient evidence that they don't, that's one thing, but otherwise, it seems wrong to rule them out because of your faith in naturalism.

Quote
EM field theory
Interesting! What does this theory entail? What prevents strong EMP's from messing with consciousness, incase it exists in the electromagnetic field, and how do you explain the fact that electric stimuli in the brain seem unable to affect some integral parts of the conscious experience? "There is no place in the cerebral cortex where electrical stimulation will cause a patient to believe or decide" - Wilder Penfield, Mystery of the Mind, as quoted in part one of Irreducable Mind.

There are many objections I could raise against naturalism, but my chief one would probably be the fact that some parts of essential human experience cannot correspond to entirely physical phenomena. If you call man's sense of right and wrong, for instance, an illusion, what trust can you have in any other mental faculty? I can no more say that killing innocents, or betraying your friends is wrong than say that one and one makes three. But if the first one has no basis in what is real, what trust can I have in that the second one isn't an illusion? This is of course an entirely philosophic argument, which may be weaker in your eyes than for instance the Kalam Cosmological argument, but this comment is getting far too long now.
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Awaclus

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #6737 on: April 04, 2024, 04:20:02 am »

If I understand you correctly, you mean that if the only reasonable explanation for a phenomenon is supernatural, you should automatically dismiss it and search for a natural explanation. I would argue that this is fallacious, "naturalism of the gaps". This methodology doesn't help you at all in finding and knowing about supernatural phenomenon, in case they exist. If you have sufficient evidence that they don't, that's one thing, but otherwise, it seems wrong to rule them out because of your faith in naturalism.

What I mean is that the difference between natural and supernatural in how most people use these terms is that the things we understand are natural and the things we don't understand are supernatural. Supernatural explanations are hence impossible, because if we don't understand our explanation, we don't have an explanation. More literally, anything that affects the natural universe is a natural phenomenon by definition and anything that doesn't doesn't matter. In principle, it would be possible for there to be an agentic being similar to what people might call a god, or the spirits of dead people could sometimes stick around and haunt places, or humans could have a mysterious energy flowing through them that keeps them healthy when it flows the right way, but if we had actual evidence of any of these being true, they would just be natural phenomena.
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silverspawn

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #6738 on: April 04, 2024, 06:25:30 am »

Interesting! What does this theory entail?

So, obviously all signal communication involves the electromagnetic force, both in the brain and in computers. But in computers, we only want it to act in very local, well-defined ways. Since electric fields naturally extend outward into all directions, computers actually have mechanisms that suppress those "global" effects. They're considered a potential source of error that needs to be prevented.

The EM hypothesis says that the brain doesn't suppress these but instead is structured around those global effects and uses them for computation. This explains a long list of things, the split brain thing being one of them, another being the general phenomenon of brain waves, which is that groups of neurons tend to fire in sync. If the brain were like a digital computer that would just seem like unnecessary redundancy, but if you care about global fields, then the strength of the signal matters. And it is known in physics that the EM field can give rise to mathematically complex phenomena, it's just not applied to the brain.

In essence, it's like each neuron is treated as a small antenna rather than a discrete piece in a wire. Someone I talked to called it the "radio brain" idea. Or I should say, it's also treated like a small antenna. I actually do think that there is still a substantial portion of the brain that does work based on discrete units. It's a mixture between discrete computation and global effects.

What prevents strong EMP's from messing with consciousness, incase it exists in the electromagnetic field,

I think the brain is just very well insulated to protect it from outside effects. But if I had to make one argument against the thesis, the fact that outside fields don't have any measurable effect would be it. The insulation seems suspiciously perfect.

  and how do you explain the fact that electric stimuli in the brain seem unable to affect some integral parts of the conscious experience? "There is no place in the cerebral cortex where electrical stimulation will cause a patient to believe or decide" - Wilder Penfield, Mystery of the Mind, as quoted in part one of Irreducable Mind.

In my model the entire cerebral cortex is completely unconscious and basically a digital computer with neuromorphic hardware, and the holistic EM field is maybe instantiated by the thalamus, though that's speculative. So electric stimulation to the cortex not affecting consciousness would actually fit with the model. Afaik you can also have substantial parts of the cortex damaged and have consciousness remain remarkably unaffected. And that also goes with the insulating thing since the cortex is like the spatially outer shell of the brain. (The lobes are all parts of the cerebral cortex, except the limbic lobe.)



I do think electrical stimulation of the cortex should have indirect effects on consciousness since like the two halves communicate a lot. But the model would say that messing with the thalamus should have far more direct and drastic effects.

silverspawn

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #6739 on: April 04, 2024, 06:26:28 am »

So the relevant part of the field is probably actually very spatially small. It's definitely entirely contained within the skull.

silverspawn

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #6740 on: April 04, 2024, 06:30:40 am »

There are many objections I could raise against naturalism, but my chief one would probably be the fact that some parts of essential human experience cannot correspond to entirely physical phenomena. If you call man's sense of right and wrong, for instance, an illusion, what trust can you have in any other mental faculty? I can no more say that killing innocents, or betraying your friends is wrong than say that one and one makes three. But if the first one has no basis in what is real, what trust can I have in that the second one isn't an illusion? This is of course an entirely philosophic argument, which may be weaker in your eyes than for instance the Kalam Cosmological argument, but this comment is getting far too long now.

So you have to differentiate between the qualia of moral judgment, i.e. what it feels like to have moral intuitions, and whether these have any truth to them -- and I'm not sure what precise point you're making. Are you saying the qualia is difficult to explain, i.e., the fact that we have a sense of right and wrong? Or are you saying that the sense of right and wrong clearly has some truth to it, and the difficult part is to explain the source of this truth in a physicalist universe? Those would be two very different points.

silverspawn

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #6741 on: April 04, 2024, 06:50:21 am »

But if I had to make one argument against the thesis, the fact that outside fields don't have any measurable effect would be it.

Correct: I meant no consciously perceived effects. You can probably measure them using neurotech, but they don't seem to affect consciousness.

silverspawn

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #6742 on: April 04, 2024, 07:01:18 am »

It's actually kind of funny how much the EM theory pattern-matches with religious or otherwise dualistic conceptions of the mind, especially before you read the footnotes. Like, it gives humans a special thing that computers don't have* **, it makes the mind non-material***, it implies that consciousness works very differently from the type of computation that's studied in computer science****, and it even rescues the naive idea of consciousness as this thing you put into a system, rather than a necessary byproduct of intelligence, which is the respectable adult view. But it's still perfectly compatible with physicalism.

* but other animals do, probably even insects
** but you could absolutely build conscious computers, we're just not currently doing it
*** but 100% physical
**** but the type of computation is still completely deterministic

Jonatan Djurachkovitch

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #6743 on: April 04, 2024, 10:40:41 am »

There are many objections I could raise against naturalism, but my chief one would probably be the fact that some parts of essential human experience cannot correspond to entirely physical phenomena. If you call man's sense of right and wrong, for instance, an illusion, what trust can you have in any other mental faculty? I can no more say that killing innocents, or betraying your friends is wrong than say that one and one makes three. But if the first one has no basis in what is real, what trust can I have in that the second one isn't an illusion? This is of course an entirely philosophic argument, which may be weaker in your eyes than for instance the Kalam Cosmological argument, but this comment is getting far too long now.

So you have to differentiate between the qualia of moral judgment, i.e. what it feels like to have moral intuitions, and whether these have any truth to them -- and I'm not sure what precise point you're making. Are you saying the qualia is difficult to explain, i.e., the fact that we have a sense of right and wrong? Or are you saying that the sense of right and wrong clearly has some truth to it, and the difficult part is to explain the source of this truth in a physicalist universe? Those would be two very different points.

My point is that all reasoning presuppose that the qualia we experience can tell us stuff about reality, and that we aren't decieved, at least about the laws of logic. The laws of logic, for example, are metaphysical and real, as well as the laws of morality. My point was that saying one of these qualia does not correspond to reality (I hope I am using "qualia" in the right way here) is sawing off the branch you are standing on.

Non-metaphysical objective laws of morality don't make sense to me, at least sans a creator or guided evolution. If morality is unchanging (which we suppose it to be when judging the sins of history), it must have existed before humans evolved. What made humanity evolve to give us the qualia of pre-existing moral laws, which are common to all men? And if moral laws evolved alongside us, in what way can it be objective, other than in the way that we have it in common?
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Jonatan Djurachkovitch

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #6744 on: April 04, 2024, 11:01:04 am »

EM theory
It does make a lot of sense that the brain should work this way, although I don't think that it is the entire picture. If you exhaustively studied EM field computation and patterns in the brain, you still wouldn't be able to understand consciousness physically. What differentiates EM field patterns and computation from digital computation in such a drastic way as to give the first capability to experience but not the second?
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Awaclus

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #6745 on: April 04, 2024, 12:06:33 pm »

Non-metaphysical objective laws of morality don't make sense to me, at least sans a creator or guided evolution. If morality is unchanging (which we suppose it to be when judging the sins of history), it must have existed before humans evolved. What made humanity evolve to give us the qualia of pre-existing moral laws, which are common to all men? And if moral laws evolved alongside us, in what way can it be objective, other than in the way that we have it in common?

Morality is not unchanging or objective, it depends on the mores of any given society at any given time. For example, in societies where most people think it is moral to own slaves, it is in fact moral to own slaves. When you are behaving immorally, your "sin" is that you are acting against what your society considers to be good and proper behavior, and that is not what slave owners in the past were guilty of.
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Awaclus

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #6746 on: April 04, 2024, 12:07:43 pm »

(I do not very highly value behaving morally.)
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silverspawn

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #6747 on: April 04, 2024, 12:18:47 pm »

EM theory
It does make a lot of sense that the brain should work this way, although I don't think that it is the entire picture. If you exhaustively studied EM field computation and patterns in the brain, you still wouldn't be able to understand consciousness physically. What differentiates EM field patterns and computation from digital computation in such a drastic way as to give the first capability to experience but not the second?

So, I think there are three separate questions here, which I would rephrase like this:

1. To what extent would a complete causal understanding of the brain, including the EM field, explain the phenomenal aspect of consciousness? (In other words, does the EM field theory solve the hard problem?)

2. What's the evidence that digital computation doesn't support consciousness?

3. If in fact #2 is true, then why is it that digital computation doesn't support consciousness and the EM field does?

Questions #2 and #3 sound almost identical but actually my answer would be very different. Because a lot of the case for #2 is either empirical (i.e., from comparing computational properties of consciousness and unconscious human processing and digital processing, it seems like the last two are similar and  the first is different) or based on totally non-constructive arguments (like, assume digital computers could be conscious, here is how I derive a contradiction). Then once you have these arguments, you can see that they don't apply to the EM field, but that still doesn't really answer #3.

Gonna take a moment to think about how to best address these without writing several thousand words

Jonatan Djurachkovitch

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #6748 on: April 04, 2024, 12:24:49 pm »

If I understand you correctly, you mean that if the only reasonable explanation for a phenomenon is supernatural, you should automatically dismiss it and search for a natural explanation. I would argue that this is fallacious, "naturalism of the gaps". This methodology doesn't help you at all in finding and knowing about supernatural phenomenon, in case they exist. If you have sufficient evidence that they don't, that's one thing, but otherwise, it seems wrong to rule them out because of your faith in naturalism.

What I mean is that the difference between natural and supernatural in how most people use these terms is that the things we understand are natural and the things we don't understand are supernatural. Supernatural explanations are hence impossible, because if we don't understand our explanation, we don't have an explanation. More literally, anything that affects the natural universe is a natural phenomenon by definition and anything that doesn't doesn't matter. In principle, it would be possible for there to be an agentic being similar to what people might call a god, or the spirits of dead people could sometimes stick around and haunt places, or humans could have a mysterious energy flowing through them that keeps them healthy when it flows the right way, but if we had actual evidence of any of these being true, they would just be natural phenomena.

When you define natural and supernatural that way you are missing the point. A lot of supernatural phenomenon are usually easily explained, although the explanations invoke a power that isn't easily observed. "How did the oracle know that?" - She was given revelation from a spirit with more knowledge than her. "How was the Red Sea split?" - YHWH did it. Here the supernatural distinction is important - the Red Sea doesn't spontaneously split, but a supernatural power did it. Claiming that that would be natural is missing the point of the distinction. What's natural is what's regular, what's possible to recreate and predict by simple observation. The methodology for intervention by supernatural beings is different. "Okay, the Red Sea split. How do we explain this?" Regular empiric science fails here, because you can't recreate it, but when you take into account the religiohistoric context, "YHWH did it" makes the best contender for an explanation. Why? The being that appeared to Mose in the burning bush used that name, claiming to be the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the forefathers of the Israelites, to whom he had revealed himself 400 years earlier. Then he said that he would deliver the Israelites from the slavery of Egypt, then the ten plagues came over Egypt in the way Moses had described by the command of God, and then the Israelites were released. When something happens that is impossible to explain using the naturalistic sciences, using the religious methodology to give an explanation is the most reasonable way, and in that case, calling the explanation "natural" doesn't make sense.

Another application of the religious methodology: I could give you a lot of evidence that parts of the Bible are of supernatural origin, that they are historically reliable, that it is psychologically helpful and so on, but the only reason I can give for why I believe it is true in its entirity is this: God has gained my trust.
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Jonatan Djurachkovitch

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #6749 on: April 04, 2024, 12:28:00 pm »

I can no more say that killing innocents, or betraying your friends is wrong than say that one and one makes three.
Oops, I messed this one up haha. Meant to say "right".
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