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Author Topic: The Necro Wars  (Read 385125 times)

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faust

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #6775 on: April 08, 2024, 02:46:54 pm »

Human-independent was probably a poor phrasing; I was trying to get at the difference between moral realism and relativism. I.e., human-independent morality as in, there are moral truths we can discover, and human-dependent morality as in, morality is just preference
I still don't really understand that difference. Sure, philosophically there is a distinction between "this is the objectively true perspective" and it being a preference, but even if it's just a preference, it's a preference that aligns in many cases across broad ranges of human experience and a theory of human consciousness should account for such a phenomenon in my view.
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silverspawn

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #6776 on: April 08, 2024, 03:06:14 pm »

Human-independent was probably a poor phrasing; I was trying to get at the difference between moral realism and relativism. I.e., human-independent morality as in, there are moral truths we can discover, and human-dependent morality as in, morality is just preference
I still don't really understand that difference. Sure, philosophically there is a distinction between "this is the objectively true perspective" and it being a preference, but even if it's just a preference, it's a preference that aligns in many cases across broad ranges of human experience and a theory of human consciousness should account for such a phenomenon in my view.

You mean explain why, historically, many different cultures have independently discovered non-utilitarian moral ideas?

This is quite interesting because I feel like this is the opposite of morality. A choice is only meaningfully moral insofar as it decreases how good a moment of consciousness feels for the person making the choice.

Well you can do things that decrease your personal valence but increase the valence of other people. Of course I'd further argue that this is ultimately not a real distinction because the philosophically correct position is to identify with all moments of consciousness equally, which removes the difference between valence egoism and valence utilitarianism.
Well, of course I'd argue that the philosophically correct position is to reject all valence (i.e. strife towards improving how good moments of consciousness feel), and realize that ultimately the way towards peace is annihilation.

is um this a joke or a genuine answer?

faust

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #6777 on: April 09, 2024, 05:59:58 am »

You mean explain why, historically, many different cultures have independently discovered non-utilitarian moral ideas?
I suppose, though I see no need to add the restriction "non-utilitarian".

Well, of course I'd argue that the philosophically correct position is to reject all valence (i.e. strife towards improving how good moments of consciousness feel), and realize that ultimately the way towards peace is annihilation.

is um this a joke or a genuine answer?
The formulation was a bit provocative, but ultimately it is a genuine answer, yes.
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silverspawn

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #6778 on: April 09, 2024, 08:05:59 am »

But aren't you still concerned about valence to an extent? Otherwise what's the point of being a vegetarian -- or is it genuinely about animal rights in some sense that doesn't relate to suffering?

silverspawn

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #6779 on: April 09, 2024, 10:00:56 am »

I suppose, though I see no need to add the restriction "non-utilitarian".

Yeah, so the QRI theory of consciousness would probably say that moral views are primarily based on aesthetics, where an aesthetic is something like a tendency of the brain to translate a certain class of concepts to high-valence qualia and others to low-valence qualia. With respect to art, this would mean that some kinds of art styles are pleasant to look at and others aren't, but it equally applies to other contexts. E.g., one could have an aesthetic of minimalism (to take an example from myself) and generally find it pleasant to be in an environment where every distinct object has a purpose, whereas a lot of unnecessary stuff would feel unpleasant. Or one could have a nature-y aesthetic and find artificial looking things ugly and freely growing things beautiful. Or an aesthetic that looks at everything in terms of self-determination. Or a goth aesthetic. Etc. To a significant extent this concept is in the mainstream, it's also often called "vibe" or "identity" or something, so the QRI version is mostly that plus the claim that what ultimately drives the observable behavior is which mental objects feel pleasant vs. unpleasant. So it's again all about valence~

So then my guess would be that moral views are largely upstream of that. Like if you're a conservative who is all about human decency and dignity, you're probably gonna have moral views that revolve around the sanctity of life. If you're more hardcore and like strict laws, then a deontological morality would probably make the most sense. But rarely is nihilism going to fit the aesthetic.

If this is on the right track, then the most frequently rediscovered moral principles would just align with the most common aesthetics. (Worth noting here that aesthetics can definitely be environmentally shaped.) So it ultimately depends on how you carve up the world, what type of thing a moral value or rule is in your book, and how it relates to other concepts. In general, virtue ethics is probably the kind of thing that most people find attractive, and then utilitarianism might be a little more common in analytically minded cultures.

As far as evidence for this elaborate theory goes, the experiment would be to think of a moral principle you subscribe to and then just introspect on how you feel about that principle, not intellectually but emotionally. Like, what is the vibe of the qualia that represents the concept? Then think of a principle that you don't like and again look at the vibe. The model predicts that the one you like feels much higher valence. (Ofc you could argue causality goes the other way here.) Ironically this could mean that the concept of valence feels low-valence, which even if it's not true for you is probably true for lots of people. Whereas the concept of dignity could feel really high valence. I think I've talked about this general idea before.

Always worth mentioning here that valence is not pleasure or any other particular form of positive emotion; it's maximally broad and encompasses any and all forms of liking.

silverspawn

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #6780 on: April 09, 2024, 10:06:10 am »

At least I definitely observe that the concept of utilitarianism feels very soft and friendly, whereas virtue ethics gets more of an ick reaction from me. Deontology as a general concept is mostly on the neutral side, but specific hard rules like "you should never take a human life under any circumstances" feel super disharmonious. Very yuck.

faust

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #6781 on: April 09, 2024, 12:30:33 pm »

But aren't you still concerned about valence to an extent? Otherwise what's the point of being a vegetarian -- or is it genuinely about animal rights in some sense that doesn't relate to suffering?
I think my being a vegetarian has more to do with not wanting to impose my will on others than with a valence calculation. Also at this point I've been vegetarian for a while and the idea of eating animal corpses gives me a reaction of physical disgust, so I don't think I could return to eating meat even if my moral judgment on this were to change.

But you can probably find cases where I will be concerned with valence; it has some use in determinations where you need to decide between two options and other moral prescriptions don't give a clear answer.
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silverspawn

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #6782 on: April 09, 2024, 05:41:12 pm »

Also at this point I've been vegetarian for a while and the idea of eating animal corpses gives me a reaction of physical disgust, so I don't think I could return to eating meat even if my moral judgment on this were to change.

Same here. I consider personal lifechoices to be largely negligible compared to what you do with your time, but meat is so gross that I'd have to get paid to eat it.

silverspawn

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #6783 on: April 09, 2024, 06:01:25 pm »

Alright back at +600.

If it could not go down below 0 this time, that would be swell. Up to +1200 instead would be nice.

Thanks universe. +1400 now -- I think I shouldn't go below 0 again at this point

silverspawn

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #6784 on: April 11, 2024, 09:54:06 am »

I think I shouldn't go below 0 again at this point

Actually 14 buy-ins is generally not considered outside the bounds of variance so I think it's too early to declare success :( I think I'd have to wait until I'm around 30 buy-ins up

silverspawn

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #6785 on: April 11, 2024, 09:54:37 am »

kinda bizarre that you have to do this for like 4 months just to get good data on whether it's even viable

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #6786 on: April 11, 2024, 10:20:58 am »

Alright I put maximally low effort into this WDC submission, let's see if it pays off

silverspawn

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #6787 on: April 13, 2024, 06:40:48 pm »

Decision to Leave (2022)

I'm so disappointed with this one. It's from Park Chan-wook who directed, wrote, and produced The Handmaiden. And I was like, let's not do this attention splintering thing and watch this in one sitting -- then I could about halfway through before it was just too boring.

The Handmaiden had maybe the greatest script of any movie I've ever seen. I don't know how you can write that and then you take six years to write another movie and this is the best you come up with? Come on.

So this is like a romnatic thriller, and the movie really needs you to buy into the romance angle to work because everything is really overdramatic otherwise. Like, it requires an incredibly high buy-in from you for the romance stuff, and it doesn't do anything to deserve it. And even if I did buy into it, I guess that would make it okay, but still nothing special.

Having seen this, I'm now forced to think about his other two films I've seen (Thirst, The Handmaiden) and recognize that they also had romances that did a lot of heavy lifting. But both of those movies have settings that make it much more understandable, and in the Handmaiden there are also several other reasons why I completely bought into it, which still hold up in retrospect. This movie is just about two regular people in regular modern Korea. So like... does Park Chan-wook use this as a plot device in all his movies whether it works or not? Is this the only kind of story he can write? Did he just get lucky that it worked so well before? Or did the Handmaiden only work so well because it was based on a book?

I don't know. But the fact that my main takeaway from this is to make me question how he managed to have written the script for The Handmaiden is not good. Also there were a few weird out of place comedic moments and unnecessary gross moments, both of which don't make sense in what is clearly trying to be a very serious story. And the ending sucked too, it's peak undeserved and overdramatic. Not. Good. 3/10.

silverspawn

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #6788 on: April 13, 2024, 06:44:02 pm »

If you like view this movie as a piece of abstract art and judge it on its technical merits, it may be quite good. Unfortunately I much prefer stories that feel real.

silverspawn

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #6789 on: April 13, 2024, 06:48:25 pm »

Well Ray is still making interesting music. At least someone hasn't totally lost it.

silverspawn

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #6790 on: April 13, 2024, 06:51:33 pm »

Srsly how do you go from a 10 straight to a 3? Shouldn't you at least make something sort of good first?

But this is not that unusual, many amazing artists drop off rapidly.

I'm still gonna watch some more of his stuff probably, but eh. I mean I didn't super like Thirst either, but (a) that was before The Handmaiden, and (b) at least that movie was so bizarre that you can't say he did something boring.

silverspawn

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #6791 on: April 13, 2024, 07:04:25 pm »

Ok so YMS had a review of this and it's like "uninteresting story but directing is fantastic"... which yeah I guess, but then he gave it an 8 and that doesn't compute for me at all. I guess if you watch a gazillion movies and really care about the artform, you pay a lot more attention to how information is presented. To me, I mean if the script is good that might matter more, but if the script is bad then competent directing is gonna do very little, even though I think I notice at least some of it. Maybe if the directing was worse it would be a 2 instead.

silverspawn

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #6792 on: April 14, 2024, 09:37:29 am »

Post by LemonUniverse on the music thing which I'm gonna share before having finished reading it because the undeniable sincerity that bleeds through the way this is written is just so endearing to me and I want to socially reward anyone who uses this style: https://thelostjockey.substack.com/p/obscure-gestalts-in-short-musical

silverspawn

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #6793 on: April 14, 2024, 09:42:12 am »



Not super well explained but definitely true. Like you can consciously decide how you group sequential elements of a repeating pattern in your head. This gets more obvious if you have a voice repeating two sounds over and over again like o-a-o-a-o-a-o-a; you can choose between interpreting them as oa-oa-oa or ao-ao-ao-ao. This is also explained by my model of consciousness!

silverspawn

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #6794 on: April 15, 2024, 07:12:41 pm »

The Quiet Girl (2022)

A good movie! Say it isn't so! I wasn't sure those things still existed.

This is one of the most straight-forward stories imaginable; a girl from a shitty family spends the summer with two relatives that treat her much better... and that's basically it. It's super slow and simple, but I was never bored. Everything feels authentic and well-presented. Some gorgeous shots in there, too. And a bunch of nice details; probably a lot more that I missed. 8/10.

The one thing that super weirded me out is people calling her "pet" in an affectionate way. That so absolutely does not sound appropriate to my ear. But GPT-4 tells me that was normal in 1980 Ireland so who am I to question it.

silverspawn

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #6795 on: April 16, 2024, 07:12:55 pm »

Paul Christiano named as US AI Safety Institute Head of AI Safety

That's... pretty great, actually. Paul Christiano is about the best person you could want in there. Eliezer, being his humble self, has previously described him as the only person in the world who disagrees with him despite a technical understanding of the problem.

Even more credit to Biden for his help in making this happen.

silverspawn

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #6796 on: April 16, 2024, 07:15:09 pm »

Succinctly put:

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #6797 on: April 16, 2024, 07:16:39 pm »

Paul Christiano named as US AI Safety Institute Head of AI Safety

That's... pretty great, actually. Paul Christiano is about the best person you could want in there. Eliezer, being his humble self, has previously described him as the only person in the world who disagrees with him despite a technical understanding of the problem.

Even more credit to Biden for his help in making this happen.

That is unexpectedly great news.
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silverspawn

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #6798 on: April 17, 2024, 08:54:10 am »



Actually this bothers me a little -- why choose "whoohoo!" over the far superior spelling of "wohoo!!"? The second "ooh" is clearly longer than the first, and a second ! is appropriate here.

Speaking of things that bother me, it shouldn't be LGBTQ+. "Queer" is already a catch-all; either make it LGBTQ or LGBT+ >:(

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #6799 on: April 17, 2024, 08:57:12 am »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwtfmpeedpA

I don't like everything about this song/album, but the last 10 minute are really cool. Great finale, fake ending, meta-commentary, and then real (and musically awesome!) ending after it
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