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Author Topic: This turn, if you have played "Ceremony" X times...  (Read 1254 times)

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convolucid

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This turn, if you have played "Ceremony" X times...
« on: December 03, 2015, 06:12:25 pm »
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This is probably a Really Bad Card Idea, since it's a lot of complexity for questionable depth. But it is a fun thought exercise.



Quote
Ceremony
+Action
This turn, if you have played Ceremony...
Once: Look at the top two cards of your deck; you may trash any of them; discard the rest
Twice: +3 Cards
Three times: You may play an Action card from your hand twice
4 or more times: Gain a card costing up to $1 per Ceremony you’ve played this turn
$4 - Action

FAQ would note that the steps do not stack, i.e. when I play my second Ceremony this turn I get +3 Cards, +Action, but I don't do the trashing from step 1.

Questions to discuss:
-Does a "Ceremony" deck have special challenges and corresponding rewards?
-What powers would you give the card at each step? Do you like my choices; why or why not?
-What is the optimal power curve of the card at each step? All 4 steps ~worth the $4 price tag? First steps overpriced, then ramping up? Odd steps drool, even steps rule?
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Roadrunner7671

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Re: This turn, if you have played "Ceremony" X times...
« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2015, 07:38:08 pm »
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Does it count itself or is the first one useless?
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GeneralRamos

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Re: This turn, if you have played "Ceremony" X times...
« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2015, 10:49:10 pm »
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I really like the concept. I agree with Roadrunner's implicit suggestion--that it should indicate "including this card" (see wording on Bank, Horn of Plenty, etc.). It should also probably indicate, for simplicity sake, Ceremonies in play, not just Ceremonies played. Makes for easier tracking and visual cues to what the card does. Otherwise, throne room, procession, etc. start to make it hard to keep things clear on this card. As it stands, though, it might be hard to keep track of anyway--each step does such a different thing. It might be nice to try to hone this idea in first with more simplistic variants. Like:
(1) a simple increase of a given vanilla bonus: +1 card for each Ceremony you have in play
(2) a simple succession of vanilla bonuses: 1st Ceremony, +1 card; 2nd Ceremony, +1 action; 3rd Ceremony, +1 Buy; 4th Ceremony, +$1 (just used normal order of occurrence for example)
(3) a combination of known vanilla types: 1st Ceremony=Cantrip; 2nd Ceremony=Village, 3rd Ceremony=Laboratory, 4th+ Ceremony=Market
« Last Edit: December 03, 2015, 10:50:14 pm by GeneralRamos »
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tristan

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Re: This turn, if you have played "Ceremony" X times...
« Reply #3 on: December 04, 2015, 06:05:01 pm »
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One is a Lookout variant, two is a double Lab, three is a non-terminal Throne Room and four is a non-terminal Workshop (five is a "Bridge"-ed Workshop and so on).
IMO trashing at step one is the right choice. Two is clearly the strongest and should appear later in the row. As the rationale for having the gainer option at step 4 is to make it harder to get more Ceremonies via Ceremony itself (a self-synergizing card that can easily gain itself is most likely always broken) you could simply swap two and three.

I also think that the card would be more interesting if its steps would be slightly more different from the cards from the base set.
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461.weavile

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Re: This turn, if you have played "Ceremony" X times...
« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2015, 02:32:01 am »
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Have you tested it at all?

At first I agreed with tristan about switching the second and third benefits, but I think then you could just play the third Ceremony twice by using the second Ceremony. You could just put a clause about playing a card twice that isn't a Ceremony. I also understand why you would want to draw cards with the second effect - you're trying to draw another Ceremony to get to the third/fourth effect.

I think that any more complicated benefits would make the card too situational.

I almost want to say that the way it is right now, nobody would play more than a second Ceremony, because how many times do you have three of the same kingdom card in your hand that doesn't give a big payout? If I play it twice it's like I played two Laboratories and I can't play any more. Clearly it wouldn't do well in Big Money, so you then need your fourth action card to give maybe +2 coins, assuming the 4 cards left in your hand can give you the other 4 coins you need, but by now you have either 1 or 3 actions left. If that works, then you need some easy way to get an extra buy, perhaps your fourth action card is a Woodcutter. Ideally, then your other four cards will get you 11 or 12 more coins, and that's a bit of a challenge, seeing that you probably don't have too many Golds if you aren't playing Big Money. ...OK at this point I'm rambling.

What I'm trying to say is that your first two are potentially just what this card needs, but the last two feel weak. Perhaps you could make the third effect a Cellar (or double Cellar if it's too weak) and the fourth effect "+(1) per Action card you have in play." This could be very exciting since it already wants you to play an engine.

As for balance, 4 seems perfect since you can't open with two of them, and it should be OK early since your deck is full of Coppers to make it harder to line them up to get to the second effect. It gets more powerful with trashing (like just about everything else). The interaction with Throne Room is actually great; comparing to Ranger, which gives +5 Cards and +2 Buys when Throned: you either get +3 Cards, +2 Actions, look at two cards...trash any...; +3 Cards, +2 Actions, [Throne Room effect]; or +2 Actions, [Throne Room effect], [Workshop effect] (or with my new idea: +3 Cards, +2 Actions, [Cellar effect]; or +2 Actions, [Cellar effect], +(4)[or more]). All of these seem like reasonable effects for playing a Throne Room, especially since you won't be drawing more than 3 cards with Ceremonies.

TL;DR: It theoretically looks very balanced, but the third and fourth effect don't seem as appealing as the first and second effects.
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