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[Haddock]

Faust is scummy. WW is middling to null.

This is entirely your read.  Don't go throwing around like this thing is objectively bad based only on your read, not everyone shares that read.

I do agree with the internet problem issues.

[Teproc]

That's it ? Those are very unlikely. I hope we can agree to a time where they would be posting from somewhere where they have reliable internet access.

ANd in your scenario one player also has an advantage. Based on your read. Which, fine, but if we're doing that it should be based on the reads of the town at large.

[Haddock]

Which, fine, but if we're doing that it should be based on the reads of the town at large.

Which I'm assuming people are taking into account with their claimvotes.

[Haddock]

Like, for me, I want them simultaneous because I see them as equally scummy.

But that does put aside logistical issues and the problem with the possibility that WW is town and just has some amazingly good reason to not claim.

[yuma]

You are completely undermining the town!narrative for faust claiming at this particular point. If he's town, he's doing what Jimmmm did in Chococlate Factory, do you remember that ?

I do remember... I was the mod...

What Jimmmmm did was somewhat different, let me go check... yeah... here it is:

I am the Goon Cop.

Last Night I investigated ashersky.

He is a Goon.

Jimmmmm waited for about half a day to claim a result. But when he claimed it, he full claimed it. That is very different than partially claiming and then wanting the person you are partially claiming about to full claim as well.

What Jimmmmm did I was in full favor of, that is ideal play with an investigave role. But faust isn't doing that. I dont' know what he is doing. But he should full claim.

Plus that was an open game. This is closed. Again, different.

and Jimmmm wasn't under as much pressure, if any, the way that faust was here.

[yuma]

Faust is scummy. WW is middling to null.

This is entirely your read.  Don't go throwing around like this thing is objectively bad based only on your read, not everyone shares that read.

I do agree with the internet problem issues.

Was this the only thing that I said in the post that you are quoting?

Don't go throwing around edited quotes without remembering the context!

[yuma]

vote: faust

[Teproc]

I thought he was under a lot of pressure, I guess I'm remembering that wrong.

I do understand the differences here, but I'm saying that faust claiming when he did isn't particularly scummy. It's not particularly townie either, it's a reasonable moment to claim as both alignments.

[Teproc]

Well, not claiming. You know what I mean. Hes claiming PR basically.

[Haddock]

Was this the only thing that I said in the post that you are quoting?

Don't go throwing around edited quotes without remembering the context!

The only other thing of meaning that you said was that there is a problem that WW might not want to claim.
Which I said I agree with, about 3 posts later.

[yuma]

I thought he was under a lot of pressure, I guess I'm remembering that wrong.

I do understand the differences here, but I'm saying that faust claiming when he did isn't particularly scummy. It's not particularly townie either, it's a reasonable moment to claim as both alignments.

He was in the middle of a huge argument with ash. Ash, as mafia, was suspecting him. I think that was it.

And sure, I don't really have much of a problem with when faust claimed. I feel like I am being really, poorly understood (partially my fault)....

What I am saying is this:

1. I don't like the half claim.
2. if you are going to make a half claim it should be made earlier
3. making a claim later is fine, but if you are going to make it earlier, make it a full claim
4. expecting someone else to full claim when you haven't claimed makes me very wary

and then much further down the list.
5. I find WW townier than faust.

(and even that isn't very well explained, I will concede, but I am at work)

[yuma]

Was this the only thing that I said in the post that you are quoting?

Don't go throwing around edited quotes without remembering the context!

The only other thing of meaning that you said was that there is a problem that WW might not want to claim.
Which I said I agree with, about 3 posts later.

But that is a much bigger issue to me than my individual read on them... it is what I have been talking about for the last 15 posts. the read, not as much.

[faust]

You are completely undermining the town!narrative for faust claiming at this particular point. If he's town, he's doing what Jimmmm did in Chococlate Factory, do you remember that ?

I do remember... I was the mod...

What Jimmmmm did was somewhat different, let me go check... yeah... here it is:

I am the Goon Cop.

Last Night I investigated ashersky.

He is a Goon.

Jimmmmm waited for about half a day to claim a result. But when he claimed it, he full claimed it. That is very different than partially claiming and then wanting the person you are partially claiming about to full claim as well.

What Jimmmmm did I was in full favor of, that is ideal play with an investigave role. But faust isn't doing that. I dont' know what he is doing. But he should full claim.

Plus that was an open game. This is closed. Again, different.

and Jimmmm wasn't under as much pressure, if any, the way that faust was here.

Well, sure. A Goon Cop result is unambiguous, you can simply claim it. This is a closed setup, nothing is unambiguous. That's why I want the claim.

[Haddock]

Was this the only thing that I said in the post that you are quoting?

Don't go throwing around edited quotes without remembering the context!

The only other thing of meaning that you said was that there is a problem that WW might not want to claim.
Which I said I agree with, about 3 posts later.

But that is a much bigger issue to me than my individual read on them... it is what I have been talking about for the last 15 posts. the read, not as much.

OK sure sure, fine fine.

I just want it to be known that your read is not universally agreed upon.

Happy to let that be a nearly-separate issue.

[faust]

1. I don't like the half claim.
2. if you are going to make a half claim it should be made earlier
3. making a claim later is fine, but if you are going to make it earlier, make it a full claim
4. expecting someone else to full claim when you haven't claimed makes me very wary

and then much further down the list.
5. I find WW townier than faust.

(and even that isn't very well explained, I will concede, but I am at work)

1-3 seem kind of arbitrary. 4 and 5 I understand.

[faust]

I am not sure what the scum narrative for my claim is... could anyone explain that to me?

[Teproc]

Well, I guess I see the half claim as being much more likely to come from town than scum. Because as scum play it's insanely bold. It's "give me the info so I can crucify you". But it's also... I don't know why you do it now ? Yes he was under pressure, but it's not just a random "don't lynch me I'm a PR" claim. It's specifically "I have a somewhat incirminating result on this player".

Basically I feel that, either way, faust planned this. If he's scum, this would be something he though about doing, probably because he has some PR that means he couldn't be caught in a lie. If he's town obviously he planned it once he got his result.

So I don't see it as "oh crap I'm under pressur,e better claim now". It's "well, I'm under pressure so let's do this thing earlier than I wanted.

Obviously the upside of this situation for scum!faust is huge. Which is why I want them to claim "simultaneously", to mitigate that.

Because then you have to consider WW. If he's town, he's wary of claiming because it provides faust the info to make the perfect fakeclaim. Fine. But if he's scum, of course he wants faust to claim first too, because then HE gets to make the perfect fakeclaim.

Hence the "simultaneous" claim idea. It trades the huge problem of letting scum get a perfect fakeclaim for the small problem of "maybe the Internet betrays us".

PPE : 5

[Haddock]

Yuma, you don't like the pressured half claim.

In fact it must be the case that you don't like the pressured half claim combined with the finger-pointing at WW.

Because in every other sense faust's claim is seriously similar to your half-claim in JK++.

This changes your argument somewhat, to my mind.

[yuma]

Because in every other sense faust's claim is seriously similar to your half-claim in JK++.

Again, I don't mind the timing of his claim. I did the same as you said and I already mentioned this immediately when faust made his claim

And maybe half-claim is a bad way of saying this. I don't like the claim of having a result without the role to back it up.

My claim in JK I wouldn't call a half claim either. It was a group possibilities claim... I didn't have any results and it was an open setup.

So yeah, I don't like the FoS or whatever you want to call it without the actual claim.

Look, there are ways to accomplish what, if faust is town, I think is trying to accomplish. But this isn't the way to do it.

Ultimately what I think this is going to come down to is WW isn't going to claim without faust revealing more information and I for one refuse to vote for him without faust revealing that information as well...

We can talk and bicker all we want, but that is what it is going to come down to. If WW wants to change his mind, it is his mind to change. But I for one won't vote for him for this reason. It would be a bad reason. So if faust really has a potentially guilty result on WW he should just claim it.

[Teproc]

This is why I see your position as one of principle.

But you're right, this is a rather pointless debate. Let's see what WW says for now.

[Haddock]

OK.

Yeah, OK.  I see where you're coming from here.

[Haddock]

I'll wait for WW.  If he's up for it then we'll sametime claim.

Otherwise faust should claim first. 

[Witherweaver]

I don't really get why WW would spark this useless breadcrumb discussion when he could just as easily flavor claim.

I don't agree that it's useless.   If a few people see the breadcrumbing and have an idea first, then when he eventually does flavor claim we might have some towny people who can then point out the breadcrumbing and say "yes this is supported by the breadcrumbing" or "no this isn't". 

WW's claiming second becomes much more viable if we have a few people who think they already know his flavour.  Then he can't modify too much.

Eh. Once WW flavor claims, he can simply point out the breadcrumb and we can figure out whether it fits. A breadcrumb should be obvious once pointed out anyway. I don't know why we have people wasting their time searching for this when WW can simply point it out once we need it.

I guess I'm just a bad kid.

[Haddock]

Any other thoughts, while you're here?

[Haddock]

Nope? Ok...

I keep realising whenever I go look at jk++ that that entire game would nearly fit into d1 here.