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[Ichimaru Gin]

Door number 3 = You are scum.

Well if he's scum and Faust is town, we still have to figure out what it means for scum to have his role name.

Yeah. That's a good point. I'm not convinced that his role is too OP to be a scum one. Aren't all roles supposed to work for both alignments? Plus, in this setup, scum has the weaker attack thing instead of NK's and it's possible for him to hit members of the other team.

[Witherweaver]

Door number 3 = You are scum.

Well if he's scum and Faust is town, we still have to figure out what it means for scum to have his role name.

Yeah. That's a good point. I'm not convinced that his role is too OP to be a scum one. Aren't all roles supposed to work for both alignments? Plus, in this setup, scum has the weaker attack thing instead of NK's and it's possible for him to hit members of the other team.

And the other scum team can interfere with his Poisoning, so maybe.

[Witherweaver]

Well this makes me think that if Joseph were scum, with that role, then Faust could not be his partner.  I doubt Faust tried so hard to oversell Joseph's role as impossible for scum since  he actually knows that scum has it.  As nonpartner scum, Faust would probably be thinking Joseph is town as he has said, but I still don't think he goes this far just to white knight.

This is assuming scum!Joseph's role works exactly as he says.  But then, there's the Ash thing. 

Um... are partner!Ash/Joseph scenarios plausible?  Are scum Ash and Joseph on different teams plausible? 

[Joseph2302]

But this is so simple. Either someone messed with my actions, or ash is scum. There's been no evidence that someone messed with my actions, therefore ash is scum.

this just makes me feel worse about you and your faust vote

Well I've spent most of D3 being like "What about if someone had messed with my actions". This reasoning kind of led me towards "I think ash might be town, which probably makes faust scum", but this argument seems weak- there's no evidence that someone messed with my actions. I'm now far more confident that ash is just scum.

Request: Vote Count.

[chairs]

I think I know who I want to vote for, but want to hear more from other people before I vote.  Especially silverspawn and awaclus and chairs.

Chairs, to make things more straightforward for you because you don't have tons of time, I am most interested in what you think about this post.  faust poked some holes in it (which was great), but I want to know what you guys think.

You made some reasonable points, but faust did deflate your balloon. If I were scum, I'd have definitely tried to mess with Ashersky's results, but we don't have any evidence that that's possible.

Kind of leaning towards "they're both scum" tbh.

[faust]

Please no L-1-ing yet. Don't let them quickhammer. I have time to address everything tomorrow.

[Joseph2302]

Please no L-1-ing yet. Don't let them quickhammer. I have time to address everything tomorrow.

Just so people know, I would be voting ash, but don't want L-1 on anyone yet. L-1 seems unnecessary right now.

[chairs]

Sorry to be this way, guys, but we just got back from the hospital where we had to put my daughter; she was unresponsive this afternoon and she's perked up but hospital policy says they test her for illness and hold her 48 hours while they get test results.

[Ichimaru Gin]

You don't have to apologize.
I hope everything is fine with you and your family. Take care.

[ashersky]

Sorry to be this way, guys, but we just got back from the hospital where we had to put my daughter; she was unresponsive this afternoon and she's perked up but hospital policy says they test her for illness and hold her 48 hours while they get test results.

Dude, put away the phone or whatever.  Take care of yourself and your family.  We're thinking about you.

[faust]

Okay, the wagon on me is ash, Ichi, silver? I won't convince ash, and honestly I believe Ichi is voting for me only because either he's scum or he wants to be right so much that he ignores all the facts, so no argument I can make will change his opinion. But silver, I've still got hope for him.

- I think the "let me vote for faust" thing from Joseph looks super staged. I also don't think faust's reaction points towards genuine town, I think scum!faust has just as much reason to be frustrated there

What's the whole thing good for if he decides to unvote right after? You can't argue that he wanted t really bus me, he's just confused here. Inconsistency is a town tell, after all.

- I don't buy that you're suddenly convinced about ash being scum. I recall you saying that ash's tunneling made him feel townier - what happened to that?

Really?! I mean, put yourself in my shoes. Ash has a result on one of my top townreads which I know is wrong. What do you expect me to do, say "oh well, but he's so townie, maybe Arch just sent him the wrong result?" Any townread I had on ash is completely nullified by this.

- I don't feel scum!ash anymore. At first I thought his tunneling was staged, but then he started to actually make good points, and... well, basically this:

The scum narrative for me?  You have to think I'm the biggest asshole in the world...fake fight, fake quitting, someone got Arch to fake seek a replacement, fake a result....all for what?  It's pretty early to be suiciding.

I already commented on this, but hey, here's me doing it again. I don't think the quitting was fake. Either he was genuinely frustrated (I hope not) or he thought replacing out would make his replacement seem super townie (true). I don't approve of that kind of play, but I know ash does.

And the fake result is there why fake results are always there - to get that one last crucial mislynch in.

And there's also the thing about how day 2 played out - I mean you did (quick!)hammer town, after all.

I don't think that's fair. It was like 3 hours before deadline, you can hardly call that a quickhammer.

Don't get me wrong, I think you played an excellent game, but that's just it, you're an excellent player, you can do this as scum. If it was anyone else, I'd probably say what you're doing (defending Joseph super hard, insisting on claiming last) is too bold for scum, but you're capable of it.

So I'm a good player, and ash isn't? Okay, so now we get to the point that bugs me the most. Yes, I'm a good player. So why? WHY do I do this? Just anwer me and TELL ME what's the scum narrative. I want to get me and my partner lynched? Because that sounds like a great plan. There is no scum narrative here, none. This is the one crucial question you need to answer if you really think my lynch is the best, and so far everyone has failed to do so.

Also this:

Look, the scum narrative for Joseph/Faust is super clear.  There have been shit claims (Joseph #1, the backpedal, admitting he targeted XP who died and was the key to our plan, Faust claiming to directly save him); they have been tied together for self-preservation (faust's non-stop, non-sensical defense of Joseph, faust's quick hammer of town, faust claiming a result to save Joseph after he's caught out -- which is why Faust wanted to go last, btw).

Yeah, this doesn't make sense. It's not self-preservation because it makes sure that we're both lynched within three days. Great plan, man.

Another thing - let's say ash is scum. Would he really try to connect this game to the contest to the Mafia championship thing if he knows you are right? Definitely no. This is more than just staging a fight.

Only he didn't really link it, did he? He accepted to be the representative even with this unresolved. It was just a rhethorical thing, never meaning anything.

I'm also pretty confident about Joseph being scum now. We all gave him allowances for his screw ups, but man, at some point we have to assume that it's staged, especially if you're partners. and if we are lynching among you two, it seems better to lynch you first.

What was the point at which you started to assume it was fake? You obviously agreed with me last day when I made my post about why Joseph is town; what's changed since then?

and lastly, I don't feel very good about your votes on me. I don't remember any game when you tunneled me and we were both town.

I don't think I really tunnelled you. There were things I found suspicious, yes. This is just OMGUS.

[ashersky]

Faust, the narrative is the one you actually gave yourself...you claim its mylo right now.  You get my mislynch and win.  I think that was a scum slip on your part, but an erroneous one.  I don't see how it could be mylo right now, and neither does any other town.  Maybe you think you see it (with added scum knowledge), but even then, unless there's some power strengthening scum more than we know, I can't see mylo right now.

Your argument against the Joseph/Faust pairing is that it wouldn't be good scum play.  But, if it's mylo like you say it is, isn't it great scum play?  Because you win if you lynch me.

[faust]

Faust, the narrative is the one you actually gave yourself...you claim its mylo right now.  You get my mislynch and win.  I think that was a scum slip on your part, but an erroneous one.  I don't see how it could be mylo right now, and neither does any other town.  Maybe you think you see it (with added scum knowledge), but even then, unless there's some power strengthening scum more than we know, I can't see mylo right now.

Your argument against the Joseph/Faust pairing is that it wouldn't be good scum play.  But, if it's mylo like you say it is, isn't it great scum play?  Because you win if you lynch me.

Because if Joseph is lying about his role, then this isn't MyLo.

[ashersky]

Faust, the narrative is the one you actually gave yourself...you claim its mylo right now.  You get my mislynch and win.  I think that was a scum slip on your part, but an erroneous one.  I don't see how it could be mylo right now, and neither does any other town.  Maybe you think you see it (with added scum knowledge), but even then, unless there's some power strengthening scum more than we know, I can't see mylo right now.

Your argument against the Joseph/Faust pairing is that it wouldn't be good scum play.  But, if it's mylo like you say it is, isn't it great scum play?  Because you win if you lynch me.

Because if Joseph is lying about his role, then this isn't MyLo.

I'm saying he's lying about his role, so it isn't mylo.

What's my scum reasoning for that?

[faust]

Faust, the narrative is the one you actually gave yourself...you claim its mylo right now.  You get my mislynch and win.  I think that was a scum slip on your part, but an erroneous one.  I don't see how it could be mylo right now, and neither does any other town.  Maybe you think you see it (with added scum knowledge), but even then, unless there's some power strengthening scum more than we know, I can't see mylo right now.

Your argument against the Joseph/Faust pairing is that it wouldn't be good scum play.  But, if it's mylo like you say it is, isn't it great scum play?  Because you win if you lynch me.

Because if Joseph is lying about his role, then this isn't MyLo.

I'm saying he's lying about his role, so it isn't mylo.

What's my scum reasoning for that?

Err... he's not lying about his role, and he's town, and you're scum, so it's MyLo regardless of what you say?

[faust]

Not sure I understand the question there.

[ashersky]

If it's mylo because I'm scum, why would I do all this?  Why wouldn't I go for an easier mislynch?

What I'm saying is, you are arguing that I think it's mylo and just want one mislynch to win, right?  If that's the case, why am I not trying to do it the easy way?  If you think I made up my claim to frame someone for a mislynch, why not frame an easier target?

You keep claiming I'm a good scum player.  Wouldn't framing anyone else have been the smarter play than lying about Joseph, who I'd already tunneled for days, and then tying him to you and voting for you?

[faust]

If it's mylo because I'm scum, why would I do all this?  Why wouldn't I go for an easier mislynch?

What I'm saying is, you are arguing that I think it's mylo and just want one mislynch to win, right?  If that's the case, why am I not trying to do it the easy way?  If you think I made up my claim to frame someone for a mislynch, why not frame an easier target?

You keep claiming I'm a good scum player.  Wouldn't framing anyone else have been the smarter play than lying about Joseph, who I'd already tunneled for days, and then tying him to you and voting for you?

Yeah, well true. But the thing is, you have an unknown partner out there that you don't want to hit by accident. I mean, that would really suck for you. So I guess you thought it safest to go after the guys who are most obviously town. That's at least how I make sense of what you're doing. I guess you could also go for it because then you can make this argument. Also, your investigation needs to fit in with your prior reads in order to be convincing. After your play the last day, it would be hard to convince people you investigated anyone but Joseph.

[Joseph2302]

Sorry to be this way, guys, but we just got back from the hospital where we had to put my daughter; she was unresponsive this afternoon and she's perked up but hospital policy says they test her for illness and hold her 48 hours while they get test results.

Dude, put away the phone or whatever.  Take care of yourself and your family.  We're thinking about you.

Seriously hope she gets better. This is a game; that is real life- it's definitely fine to focus on that not this.

[faust]

Well this makes me think that if Joseph were scum, with that role, then Faust could not be his partner.  I doubt Faust tried so hard to oversell Joseph's role as impossible for scum since  he actually knows that scum has it.  As nonpartner scum, Faust would probably be thinking Joseph is town as he has said, but I still don't think he goes this far just to white knight.

One more thing to consider: If you'd assume ash is town, then that means that Joseph HAS a partner. Because otherwise ash would also have seen him performing a kill. Not sure if that information is of any use, but it doesn't hurt to put it out there.

[faust]

Well this makes me think that if Joseph were scum, with that role, then Faust could not be his partner.  I doubt Faust tried so hard to oversell Joseph's role as impossible for scum since  he actually knows that scum has it.  As nonpartner scum, Faust would probably be thinking Joseph is town as he has said, but I still don't think he goes this far just to white knight.

One more thing to consider: If you'd assume ash is town, then that means that Joseph HAS a partner. Because otherwise ash would also have seen him performing a kill. Not sure if that information is of any use, but it doesn't hurt to put it out there.

I guess this disproves theories that go like "faust/WW are partners, and Joseph is their unknown partner". Not sure if anyone actually supports such a theory.

[ashersky]

Well this makes me think that if Joseph were scum, with that role, then Faust could not be his partner.  I doubt Faust tried so hard to oversell Joseph's role as impossible for scum since  he actually knows that scum has it.  As nonpartner scum, Faust would probably be thinking Joseph is town as he has said, but I still don't think he goes this far just to white knight.

One more thing to consider: If you'd assume ash is town, then that means that Joseph HAS a partner. Because otherwise ash would also have seen him performing a kill. Not sure if that information is of any use, but it doesn't hurt to put it out there.

Are you not paying attention?  I see the type of one action performed, which has been pointed out multiple times.

And I'd seriously doubt I could see a factional kill as a role action, to boot.

[faust]

And I'd seriously doubt I could see a factional kill as a role action, to boot.

You "doubt"? Man, that is a really obvious scumslip. No way town!ashersky wouldn't have asked about this as soon as he read his role PM.

[faust]

I'm a blind follower.  Basically a rolecop but I only get type of power performed (I.e., investigative, protective, etc.)

Sorry, it's the weekend, haven't been around.  I'm glad we're actually doing this.

This is the claim. Nowhere you say that you only get one action.

[ashersky]

I'm a blind follower.  Basically a rolecop but I only get type of power performed (I.e., investigative, protective, etc.)

Sorry, it's the weekend, haven't been around.  I'm glad we're actually doing this.

This is the claim. Nowhere you say that you only get one action.

A month has passed since then.  Possibly it could be in your best interest to read the posts that may have been posted since then.