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[Witherweaver]

It happens  in games with Traitors that the Mafia team ends up lynching them, thinking that they're town.  Happened with Joseph a few games ago, and maybe in one after that.

[Ichimaru Gin]

How would they know he's Hydrad's partner?  How would they have known it Day 1?

Also, what happened to e being my partner?

This is a hypothetical. I'm not going to argue this further because I think you're being purposefully obtuse. I'm speaking in very general terms here about what general strategy scum I think would pursue. You seem to think that scum would generally try to honestly scumhunt and lynch members from the other team...which makes no sense to me.

PPE: Sure. No one says scum's intuition or reads are necessarily correct--but why wouldn't they think about who is on the other team and tweak their reads accordingly?

[Witherweaver]

Hey.  You know that thing where you entirely misrepresent someone and put words in their mouth that you do all the time?  Why don't you try taking it down by a factor of about a zillion, because it's annoying.

Let's get back to premise.

1) e is scummy because he hasn't gotten suspicion.

I need this explained, because I am not understanding it.  It is possible I'm mistaken, that happens.  But what is your argument here?

[Ichimaru Gin]

Hey.  You know that thing where you entirely misrepresent someone and put words in their mouth that you do all the time?  Why don't you try taking it down by a factor of about a zillion, because it's annoying.

That is exactly what I feel you are doing to me here.

[Witherweaver]

Hey.  You know that thing where you entirely misrepresent someone and put words in their mouth that you do all the time?  Why don't you try taking it down by a factor of about a zillion, because it's annoying.

That is exactly what I feel you are doing to me here.

So you're not saying that e is scummy because he hadn't gotten suspicion?  I might have misread something.

[Witherweaver]

2. He's been lurking and hasn't gotten much suspicion until now. His overall play just doesn't feel like town!e to me.

This was the point in question.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Hey.  You know that thing where you entirely misrepresent someone and put words in their mouth that you do all the time?  Why don't you try taking it down by a factor of about a zillion, because it's annoying.

That is exactly what I feel you are doing to me here.

So you're not saying that e is scummy because he hadn't gotten suspicion?  I might have misread something.

Um. Not getting suspicion--especially when combined with lurking is generally scummy. What I think you think that I'm saying (when I'm really not) is that the only explanation for this is scum having godly intuition that e is scum and subsequently defending him. I think the lack of suspicion on e is more due to his low activity and not being a part of some of the major conflicts of the game. He's been more on the sidelines of things--and also making cases is more artificial behavior that isn't really directly interacting with other players to help them read you. Making cases is pretty low-risk and an easy thing for scum to do to look like they're participating. Making cases isn't scummy in isolation, but looking at e's play as a whole, I don't really see why you think that it's so townie.

PPE: ok.

[Witherweaver]

Well my point is is that (at least part of) the reason not getting suspicion is generally scummy is because you have scum partners that aren't going to be too enthusiastic about getting you lynched.  The dynamics of this game are different, so it's less of a factor here. 

He's townie because he's been doing things to move this game along.  The case on me came actually helped progress the game, and I think the case on you did as well.  On Day 1 it got the game out of theory talk, and the Day 2 one  also helped start things happening. It's generally all well and good.  Aside from that he's generally been making sense.

Also, he's flipped around on reads, and it's felt somewhat genuine.  In particular, scum on me day 1 to town on me day 2, and (town?  null?) on you Day 1 to scum on you Day 2.  Those things are fakeable, but it's not as easy.  Scum has a pretty strong tendency to stay consistent and not change minds a lot.  At any rate, it didn't feel faked to me.

[Joseph2302]

2. He's been lurking and hasn't gotten much suspicion until now. His overall play just doesn't feel like town!e to me.

This was the point in question.

He has responded to this, saying he's been IRL busy, V/LA for about 4 days, and can't access F.ds at work. These seem reasonable reasons.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Well my point is is that (at least part of) the reason not getting suspicion is generally scummy is because you have scum partners that aren't going to be too enthusiastic about getting you lynched.  The dynamics of this game are different, so it's less of a factor here. 

He's townie because he's been doing things to move this game along.  The case on me came actually helped progress the game, and I think the case on you did as well.  On Day 1 it got the game out of theory talk, and the Day 2 one  also helped start things happening. It's generally all well and good.  Aside from that he's generally been making sense.

Also, he's flipped around on reads, and it's felt somewhat genuine.  In particular, scum on me day 1 to town on me day 2, and (town?  null?) on you Day 1 to scum on you Day 2.  Those things are fakeable, but it's not as easy.  Scum has a pretty strong tendency to stay consistent and not change minds a lot.  At any rate, it didn't feel faked to me.

Those are some good points. He obviously hasn't flipped his reads around much today though; I agree about scum tunneling people, kinda like how he's tunneling me. I don't think he's been making much sense lately either.

PPE: Obviously his VLA is important. I'm pretty sure he hasn't been VLA the entire game though (correct me if I'm wrong).

[faust]

Hey.  You know that thing where you entirely misrepresent someone and put words in their mouth that you do all the time?  Why don't you try taking it down by a factor of about a zillion, because it's annoying.

+1

[Ichimaru Gin]

Do I really do that all the time?

I am sometimes concerned that my perceived overreactions to things that other people don't really think are important harm my credibility when I feel strongly about something more substantial...

[chairs]

vote: IG staaahhhppp.

You're overreacting.

PPE: You've been consistent with it this game, IMO.

[Ichimaru Gin]

vote: IG staaahhhppp.

You're overreacting.

PPE: You've been consistent with it this game, IMO.

Is this a policy vote?

[Witherweaver]

Well, strangely enough, Ichi's insistence on the quality of his case against e is reducing my scum read against him.  I think when you know it's an artificial case you're a little more willing to back down or concede points. 

[Awaclus]

Vote: Ichi

[Ichimaru Gin]

That's an unannounced L-2 btw.

[Awaclus]

That's an unannounced L-2 btw.

But now it's announced so it's fine.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Would you care to share why you're voting me?

[Awaclus]

Would you care to share why you're voting me?

Because you're scum.

[Ichimaru Gin]

You're wrong.

[Ichimaru Gin]

This is super frustrating. As town, I've always considered there to be two major skills.
1. Being able to figure out who scum are yourself.
2. Convincing others to agree with you.

I might as well just give up on ever being good at #2 I guess. It seems no matter what I do, attention is always reflected back on me and the majority of my points are simply ignored and discounted. I understand that some of that could be considered my fault because of the way I react to people voting me. I'm beginning to feel like I did in MM where I'm the only active town surrounded by scum who are playing me and lurkers who sheep my wagon.

My fear is that my lack of ability to convince others as town stems not from emotional reactions that discredit me but rather an inability to make convincing arguments. It seems trying harder only results in greater amounts of mockery.

[Witherweaver]

The problem is is that your reads don't really mean anything.  The people you're trying to lynch are just the people that are trying to lynch you.  If voting against you made someone scum, then we wouldn't need your response at all.  We could just see them vote you and vote against them.  An your argument boils down to "they're tunneling me so they're scummy".  And you were certain I was scum for the same reasons you were certain Faust, ADK, e were scum, so you can see how this is unconvincing for me. 

[Ichimaru Gin]

The problem is is that your reads don't really mean anything.  The people you're trying to lynch are just the people that are trying to lynch you.  If voting against you made someone scum, then we wouldn't need your response at all.  We could just see them vote you and vote against them.  An your argument boils down to "they're tunneling me so they're scummy".  And you were certain I was scum for the same reasons you were certain Faust, ADK, e were scum, so you can see how this is unconvincing for me.

So scum can then just vote me first and bully me into not OMGUSing them and then they're scot free--like Teproc did in MM. It's not fair that just because someone votes me first, anything I say about them is automatically meaningless.

[Witherweaver]

The problem is is that your reads don't really mean anything.  The people you're trying to lynch are just the people that are trying to lynch you.  If voting against you made someone scum, then we wouldn't need your response at all.  We could just see them vote you and vote against them.  An your argument boils down to "they're tunneling me so they're scummy".  And you were certain I was scum for the same reasons you were certain Faust, ADK, e were scum, so you can see how this is unconvincing for me.

So scum can then just vote me first and bully me into not OMGUSing them and then they're scot free--like Teproc did in MM. It's not fair that just because someone votes me first, anything I say about them is automatically meaningless.

It's hardly scum's fault for manipulating your play style.