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Author Topic: Temporum  (Read 52224 times)

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LuciferousPeridot

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Re: Temporum
« Reply #100 on: January 12, 2015, 12:42:48 pm »
+2

Played a few 3 player games with my group now and all like the game a lot and want to play again. There are not many turns between deciding how you are going to play then panic as someone else suddenly looks close to finishing. The limited number of turns forces you to appreciate the subtleties on the zone cards, something you probably wouldn't get from the first or second game.

Nice to have that 'no idea what I am doing' feeling again.
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jdgordon

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Re: Temporum
« Reply #101 on: January 27, 2015, 09:55:03 pm »
0

I guess someone needs to write an Isotropic for Temporum so that we can work out the strategy faster.  Or perhaps it's already been done and we just need those in power to agree to open it up to the rest of us. :)
I don't know of anything. You could suggest it to the Board Game Arena people.

Does that mean you'd be fine with a temporum clone online like isotropic? I got blasted on reddit for posting my implementation of a differnt game (which was in an unfinished and AI-only state) which killed my motivation to finish it a bit.

(P.S My temporum box is waiting for me at home - such a pain to find a store with it in stock in australia!)
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Donald X.

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Re: Temporum
« Reply #102 on: January 28, 2015, 03:42:33 am »
0

Does that mean you'd be fine with a temporum clone online like isotropic? I got blasted on reddit for posting my implementation of a differnt game (which was in an unfinished and AI-only state) which killed my motivation to finish it a bit.

(P.S My temporum box is waiting for me at home - such a pain to find a store with it in stock in australia!)
Not a "clone," no, but Temporum itself, sure. You would need to clear it with Jay, but it's extremely likely he would be pleased to have an online free Temporum implementation up somewhere - it promotes the game, and the game needs the promotion. You need to be a significant success to get to the point where you can hope to make money off of an online version.
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Re: Temporum
« Reply #103 on: January 28, 2015, 04:15:51 am »
+3

I guess someone needs to write an Isotropic for Temporum so that we can work out the strategy faster.  Or perhaps it's already been done and we just need those in power to agree to open it up to the rest of us. :)
I don't know of anything. You could suggest it to the Board Game Arena people.

Does that mean you'd be fine with a temporum clone online like isotropic? I got blasted on reddit for posting my implementation of a differnt game (which was in an unfinished and AI-only state) which killed my motivation to finish it a bit.

(P.S My temporum box is waiting for me at home - such a pain to find a store with it in stock in australia!)

GendoIkari has made a good start on this: have a look at http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=12402.0.
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jdgordon

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Re: Temporum
« Reply #104 on: January 28, 2015, 03:33:45 pm »
0

Does that mean you'd be fine with a temporum clone online like isotropic? I got blasted on reddit for posting my implementation of a differnt game (which was in an unfinished and AI-only state) which killed my motivation to finish it a bit.

(P.S My temporum box is waiting for me at home - such a pain to find a store with it in stock in australia!)
Not a "clone," no, but Temporum itself, sure. You would need to clear it with Jay, but it's extremely likely he would be pleased to have an online free Temporum implementation up somewhere - it promotes the game, and the game needs the promotion. You need to be a significant success to get to the point where you can hope to make money off of an online version.

cool!
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Donald X.

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Re: Temporum
« Reply #105 on: January 31, 2015, 07:16:40 pm »
+16

Unfortunately, Temporum was just panned by Dice Tower: http://boardgamegeek.com/video/60882/temporum/miami-dice-153-temporum

Tom Vasel seemed to think it was passable, but Dourpuss over on his left really hated it.
I have been feeling like, if I can't include base resources on things, for card balance or to make the resources always available, doesn't that just shut out broad swaths of possible games? I thought it was telling that Tom said, in his top 10 Dominion cards, that the +$2 wasn't the part he liked about Black Market. I mean, how could it be? In the early days of Dominion I didn't put +$2 on anything, I treated that stuff like part of the card concept. But cards needed their +$2's to let me do a variety of effects, and I mean it all worked out. I don't think anyone looks at Monument and Mountebank and thinks, essentially the same card. But here I am continuing to do this in new games and it sounds like some people are all, I draw 2 cards here, I draw 2 cards over there, same card. And uh not doing that is just a limitation I don't want imposed on me. I am already hard to convince to make an initial prototype of anything.

So anyway I finally watched this, to see just what the complaints were. Well, I skipped over some sections, I didn't need to hear all the card descriptions or complaining about the theme or the punchline. He got the rules right, hooray. And overall he seemed pretty friendly about it; he thought the various parts of it sounded good but was unmoved in the games. The big complaints were feeling like the action was too homogeneous between turns and across players, and the other guy feeling like combos weren't attainable because you draw random cards. They also noted that games were close as if it didn't matter what they did, but this folded back into the homogeneity; they wanted to feel like they were doing different things, and if that produced close games, okay.

The actions were less homogeneous originally and got reduced down to what worked. Again I regret having 7 cards that give you a choice of basic action. I don't imagine they totally sink it, for the kind of player with these issues, but the one guy cited this very thing, the choice cards (without quite calling them out). Main sets are trying to be as good as possible - odds are there won't ever be an expansion, so it's not like it makes sense to hold anything back - and part of that means being simple enough for a broad audience. But possibly I could have fit in a few things that were more complex.

The card drawing, I used my classic trick, which I think works and that's certainly my experience with Temporum itself, of giving cards 3 uses. You can play a card because you just want the $, play it because you want the ability, or score it. That magical 3 uses really irons out luck of the draw (well that plus card balance). There is still luck of the draw of course. But you can usually make do and be competitive with whatever you draw.

The games are close because of game balance and having the uh little edges you get be little. You can have opponents that don't bother you and you run away with the game, or can have great luck like Gang of Pickpockets turn one in Communist Utopia. But typically, if you just play better than them but have average luck and they worry about you reasonably, you accumulate small edges that add up to you winning, but it's close. This always felt like a positive for players but I guess may look bad to reviewers. The small edges could have been bigger, easily. I dunno, I like the game as is but haven't run the experiment.

The flavor issue, I just always put gameplay over flavor. The game was once more flavorful in whatever ways that maybe don't count I mean who am I to judge this; for example crowns went on specific times, which is maybe more flavorful because you know, you were powerful in the Renaissance but it's not real now, your power is gone. Instead of, you are powerful in Time 2, no matter what it is. But uh that didn't work and that always trumps flavor for me. I like the flavor; I appreciated that Barnes liked the flavor even as he said that there was no narrative (i.e., it didn't make sense that scoring that Golden Goose got you power in the Civil War or whatever it was, but he still liked flavor elements). When I make a game with strong flavor, I expect it to be changed by the publisher anyway, as happened with Infiltration. I don't usually like extra rules that are just flavorful, I like to keep the rules simple. Anyway not everyone wants to roleplay every game and I don't feel like I should be trying to make my games more flavor-heavy, unless that's what some particular game wants. For that matter I am more likely to be able to get games published that are more abstract.

So anyway. To make Tom like this game more, I think the move would just have been, more complex zones / cards. I could have gone a little way in that direction, dunno if I could have gone enough. I don't feel like I want to aim for games that only hardcore gamers can enjoy. Maybe I am underrating what the masses can cope with, I dunno; I can find Crapuchettes saying how he wished the Dominion expansions were as simple as the main set. But probably I could have replaced at least a few choice zones with more complex things. I am always pleasing myself and the people I play with; we didn't find it too homogeneous. But I lean away from playing with the choice zones, as if, why didn't I realize I had too many of them. And then, for the other guy, I think more card throughput was what he needed - draw way more cards, thus being more likely to get combos or cards you like. Card throughput is fun but not always possible to go heavy on, I mean you need to have enough cards and then you do way more reading.

Thanks for listening.
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jdgordon

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Re: Temporum
« Reply #106 on: February 15, 2015, 02:42:16 am »
0

Like I mentioned a few posts back, I've started actually working on the game engine. I've so far implemented 15 cards and 10 zones, but the rest should be pretty simple to add ones the engine bugs are worked out :) The only big thing the engine can't handle yet is zones and cards which force another player to make a choice (i.e the cult zone). That's high on my todo list.

What I've got though should be enough to play a game with the cards I've implemented. GendoIkari is hopefully going to make his single player UI work with this, but I'm wondering if anyone is interested in joining in (testing mostly) or making a bot? The API is all REST json...

EDIT: Woo! I've implemented all the momentary cards except Infected Rat and all perpetual cards except Treasure Map (slightly fiddly with the wanting to do something after the zone is finished which isnt being handed yet).
« Last Edit: February 15, 2015, 06:32:24 am by jdgordon »
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Voltaire

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Re: Temporum
« Reply #107 on: February 15, 2015, 12:38:38 pm »
0

Can you explain exactly what it is you're doing and how it is different from GI's implementation? I don't get it.
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: Temporum
« Reply #108 on: February 15, 2015, 01:54:09 pm »
+1

Can you explain exactly what it is you're doing and how it is different from GI's implementation? I don't get it.

He wants to make human vs human possible.
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popsofctown

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Re: Temporum
« Reply #109 on: February 15, 2015, 04:03:20 pm »
0

No one in my board game group has even spoken of Temporum so it doesn't seem to have much publicity.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Temporum
« Reply #110 on: February 15, 2015, 04:28:55 pm »
0

Can you explain exactly what it is you're doing and how it is different from GI's implementation? I don't get it.

He wants to make human vs human possible.

This. He is building the code that I have, except on a server instead of in JavaScript, which is one big step towards pVp. In theory my website can stay largely the same, except the code that's not related to drawing stuff on the screen or getting user input can be on the server side, where user's decisions can be send to the other player(s).
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GendoIkari

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Re: Temporum
« Reply #111 on: February 15, 2015, 04:29:17 pm »
0

No one in my board game group has even spoken of Temporum so it doesn't seem to have much publicity.

And hopefully my website can help change that.
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Voltaire

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Re: Temporum
« Reply #112 on: February 15, 2015, 11:58:11 pm »
+2

No one in my board game group has even spoken of Temporum so it doesn't seem to have much publicity.

And hopefully my website can help change that.

Customers regularly ask me what I'm playing that's new, and today was the first day I said "Temporum" and didn't get a blank stare in return, so...yeah, no, sample size was one.
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Jimmmmm

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Re: Temporum
« Reply #113 on: March 03, 2015, 08:15:18 pm »
0

I was looking at the cards, and noticed this:

Quote from: Age of Cults
Draw 2 cards. Each player with any cards in hand passes one left to the next such player, at once.

I'm taking this as a nod to the KC/Goons/Masquerade pin. :)
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Donald X.

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Re: Temporum
« Reply #114 on: March 03, 2015, 09:00:35 pm »
+3

I was looking at the cards, and noticed this:

Quote from: Age of Cults
Draw 2 cards. Each player with any cards in hand passes one left to the next such player, at once.

I'm taking this as a nod to the KC/Goons/Masquerade pin. :)
Well the games are much different. In Temporum without that clause it would be a huge windfall for a player with no cards; there's no pin possible since you have to draw cards to make the effect happen.

The wording did come out of thinking about the pin though.
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werothegreat

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Re: Temporum
« Reply #115 on: March 03, 2015, 11:47:23 pm »
0

Honestly, I didn't like Temporum all that much.  However, it was definitely not for any of the reasons Tom Vasel spouted.  I kind of think of EuroGames as fitting into two broad types:

a) You can do everything you possibly can every turn
b) You have to pick one or two things to do per turn

I usually prefer category a) - Dominion is an example.  Do I want to draw cards, or get a new card this turn?  I can do both!  And other things, too!

Category b) games tend to be hit or miss with me.  Race for the Galaxy is an example that I kind of like - sure, you have to pick one thing to do this turn, but this is ameliorated by i) you do whatever your opponent picks, too ii) the discard-to-pay requirement means there's usually only one or two things you *want* to do per turn, anyway, and the cards are set up so there's early game and late game cards.  In other words, it's usually fairly obvious what you should probably pick to do this turn.

Temporum is very much in category b), but unlike RftG, I never really felt I knew what I should be doing on a particular turn.  Granted, I only played one game, but still.  It reminded me a lot of Innovation in that respect - I've played several games of Innovation at this point, and I still have no idea what I'm doing when I play it.  It's basically "here, make the best of these cards, and try to cobble some strategy out of it - meanwhile, it will always seem like your opponents know what they're doing, at least more so than you, and may even win despite not knowing at all what they're doing!"  I dunno.  Just didn't really do it for me.

Kingdom Builder, on the other hand, I very much enjoyed - I like to think of it as the game Settlers of Catan *should* have been (yeah, I hate Settlers, sue me).  I'll probably pick up a copy of KB, and probably look into its expansions!
« Last Edit: March 03, 2015, 11:48:45 pm by werothegreat »
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jdgordon

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Re: Temporum
« Reply #116 on: March 04, 2015, 12:05:44 am »
0

Wait, you put dominion in category a? I would think dominion is the very definition of category b!

I think the issue with temporum (and infinitly more so for innovation) is that it feels like you don't have much opportunity for strategy other than playing the cards you have. There is no real way to plan ahead like dominion gives. Thats partly fair except the time zones are static and easily understood for each game, and there are far fewer cards to learn in the pickup deck (most won't kill you if you don't get them). Temporum has 10 zones per game and what? 30 player cards (times 2)? Innovation base game has 105 IIRC which is absurd.

Kingdom builder mostly flopped with my group, It almost feels too rigid.
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A Drowned Kernel

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Re: Temporum
« Reply #117 on: March 04, 2015, 12:56:43 am »
+2

I don't know, I think that Temporum has the ability to plan ahead, in that you have to think about changing history, where you want to rule, and whether you're focusing on scoring the more gold efficient cards or the more card efficient cards. I find it similar to Dominion where there's luck, but there's really only one random variable; in Dominion, it's your shuffle luck, in Temporum, it's the cards you draw. Dominion is a combination of planning and playing the hands your dealt, which is what is appealing about it to me, and Temporum seems the same way. You also have to make tactical decisions in terms of what state your opponents are in in terms of money and cards in hand, what zones they can benefit from, and of course where the time lines are pointing.

The limit on what you can do is also part of what's interesting, because I think a big part of the strategy comes in finding moves that actually do two things for you.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Temporum
« Reply #118 on: March 04, 2015, 12:10:02 pm »
+3

Temporum is a game of much smaller advantages than Dominion. In Dominion, you can build up a crazy engine that just destroys your opponent. In Temporum, it's more like you're trying to gain an extra .1 points per turn so that after 10 turns, you can win by 1 point. (Of course it's more like you win 1 turn sooner than it is that you win by a certain number of points). But because the gains are so small, they aren't noticeable to a new player. It's easy to think that 2 different options are both the same, because neither gives you a full "point" advantage. Rather, one option will just give you a tiny advantage that's not noticeable until you're good at the game.

And I understand what wero means by Dominion being in category a... like he said, you can draw your cards, play your cards, and buy new cards all in the same turn. Sure, sometimes you have to choose between playing 1 of 2 terminals in your hand, but the point is you can always play a card. In Temporum, you only get to play a card every few turns; you only get to draw a card every few turns; etc. I think the comparison to RFTG is a good one.

"because I think a big part of the strategy comes in finding moves that actually do two things for you." Yeah, this. That's the whole thing with Temporum. There's an obvious baseline where every turn you can either draw 2 cards, play a card (which will give you about 12 money), or score a card. The biggest part of strategy is finding things you can do that are better than those 3 options.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2015, 12:11:35 pm by GendoIkari »
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Tombolo

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Re: Temporum
« Reply #119 on: March 05, 2015, 12:20:56 am »
+1

Just tried the online....super fun!

Is it just me, or is Ancient Greece kinda strong?  My last game I just kinda did a mega series-of-turns after spamming a bunch of permanents.
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Re: Temporum
« Reply #120 on: March 05, 2015, 12:57:45 am »
0

Just tried the online....super fun!

Is it just me, or is Ancient Greece kinda strong?  My last game I just kinda did a mega series-of-turns after spamming a bunch of permanents.

You can pay $4 to draw a card.  That's OK if you have extra money somehow, but it's not amazing.
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Re: Temporum
« Reply #121 on: March 05, 2015, 01:03:15 am »
0

Just tried the online....super fun!

Is it just me, or is Ancient Greece kinda strong?  My last game I just kinda did a mega series-of-turns after spamming a bunch of permanents.

You can pay $4 to draw a card.  That's OK if you have extra money somehow, but it's not amazing.

If you have two Explorers, it's a pretty sweet deal.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Temporum
« Reply #122 on: March 05, 2015, 01:04:56 am »
0

Just tried the online....super fun!

Is it just me, or is Ancient Greece kinda strong?  My last game I just kinda did a mega series-of-turns after spamming a bunch of permanents.

You can pay $4 to draw a card.  That's OK if you have extra money somehow, but it's not amazing.

If you have two Explorers, it's a pretty sweet deal.

Sure, but similar things can be said for various other combos. :P
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GendoIkari

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Re: Temporum
« Reply #123 on: March 05, 2015, 09:29:41 am »
0

Note that as a general rule, 1 card = $4 = 1 crown. There are multiple things in the game that let you either pay $4 for a card, or discard a card for $4.
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Re: Temporum
« Reply #124 on: March 17, 2015, 05:29:10 pm »
0

It's definitely lighter than Dominion and not quite as good, but Dominion is one of my top 3 games ever. 

I really appreciate the setup time.  There's basically none.  I shuffle a few decks, we all get our crowns, and we're playing.  This makes it really easy to introduce new people to.  There's some strategy, but it's all based around incremental advantages.  I happen to like that, some people don't.  There's some luck.  Not seeing any blue cards means you're in for a rough time, I've never seen someone without a single one win.  There's tons of little engines you can build.  They're all little, the game is short.  Chances are you score 5-6 cards to win.

In fact that leads me to my biggest drawback.  It's just so short.  I want to build a cool little engine and combo off the Age IV stuff, but it's really hard.  And a lot of the Age IV stuff is not comboriffic.  And everyone can disrupt you if you do get a combo down, meaning you'll use it at most once. 

If I wanted to improve it with expansions:

- More ways to be able to access unreal times. 
- More persistent cards, or more draw filtering. 
- Increasing the game length would not be the end of the world

All in all, a great game, and probably the best casual game I own, but it just misses a little amount of meat.  I almost want to see Donald go full Euro with the design and make a 2-3 hour game out of it, engine building, scoring, ruling different times, time shifts being difficult, new timelines being created... there's so much potential, I want more!
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