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[liopoil]

Okay.
Why are we voting chairs if he is going to be replaced?
And…Robz is right, he deserves to be lynched. Then he goes on to say that hes town because he was lurking? Aka he is town because he is acting anti-town? This is either bad policy, or scum. I really dont care about his meta. vote: Robz

This is SK's last post, from even before I replaced in. Request prod on SK, should have asked a few days ago

[liopoil]

that's only after one read though. I think I'll make a collection of all his posts later today, like I did with hydrad, and then decide based on that

I would definitely read this.

[Archetype]

Vote Count 2.8

liopoil (1): Robz888
Robz888 (2): SK, Voltaire
jotheonah (3): Witherweaver, Eevee, Hydrad
XerxesPraelor (4): liopoil, Kingzog3, silverspawn, jotheonah
Eevee (1) XerxesPraelor


With 11 alive it takes 6 to lynch.

Day 2 ends Sept. 14 at 5pm FT (~3 hours and 45 minutes).

[Archetype]

Request prod on SK

Prod Sent.

[Robz888]

I'm here. Sorry, it looks like I don't have enough time for mafia these days. I think Mafia 50 might actually be my last game for awhile.

Who should I  vote for?

[Robz888]

Vote: Jotheonah

I really think XP is town who really messed up his night action, than scum who came up with a scummy explanation for his night action fail.

[Eevee]

Both joth and XP at L-1 now.

[Eevee]

Both joth and XP at L-1 now.

L-2, I mean.

[liopoil]

Vote: Jotheonah

I really think XP is town who really messed up his night action, than scum who came up with a scummy explanation for his night action fail.

This sentence doesn't really make sense. Why the 180 from your stance at the start of the day?

[Robz888]

Voltaire, just so we are clear, you think Robz deliberately not contributing because he is trying to trick us into thinking he just doesn't care or have the time is more likely than Robz just not caring or having the time?

That's correct. But also, though Robz has done this in the past, he has never done it to this degree. That's why I think there is a difference.

You're right, I've never done it to this degree. Things have just been extremely busy lately. I'm getting married in three weeks!

I'll be more active tomorrow. Sorry for letting you all down, and I won't sign up for anymore games I don't have time for.

[Robz888]

Vote: Jotheonah

I really think XP is town who really messed up his night action, than scum who came up with a scummy explanation for his night action fail.

This sentence doesn't really make sense. Why the 180 from your stance at the start of the day?

I did 180, yeah. I mean my initial analysis was fueled by anger that he had done--in my opinion--the manifestly wrong thing. But that really is a town tell. Think of mail-mi missing his RB on Night 2 and then RBing me, a virtual IC, in whatever game that was (Adventure Time, I think). When I thought it through, I knew it was towny, because it was so wrong and so scummy. I think is the case here.

I think of Morgrim in Chocolate Factory on Day 1, too. Basically, whenever I don't believe someone because what they did was so wrong, I later find out they were truthful. Neat explanations are scummy. Baffling, forgetful decisions are townie.

Or he's very cleverly putting one over on me, sure. No, I do think he is town, though.

Joth has a much better chance of being scum, I say.

[jotheonah]

And again with the vagueness. When I flip town, look closely at who built a case and who was just like "joth is the obvious pick here" with no real explanation.

[Robz888]

And again with the vagueness. When I flip town, look closely at who built a case and who was just like "joth is the obvious pick here" with no real explanation.

Who is this directed at? I'm not being vague, I don't have a case on you at all, you're just the not-XP candidate.

[Eevee]

And again with the vagueness. When I flip town, look closely at who built a case and who was just like "joth is the obvious pick here" with no real explanation.

Scum only has motivation to go out of their way to pick you if XP is scum. If both the options are town, scum can just do whatever they think is the towniest here. Not necessarily try to sway the lynch away from our doctor..

[jotheonah]

I just want to say again, look back at the end of day 1. As Liopoil had pointed out, I was the first one to back off XP after his claim yesterday! Now if he's town and I'm scum -- as you're willing to believe, Robz -- why would I do that!? If nothing else, I would stay on the claimed doctor until someone else backed off. Or I would just push the lynch anyway, pointing out how scummy a claim doctor is.

I just don't see my play at the end of the day yesterday matches a narrative of joth scum, XP town at all.

[Eevee]

That is actually somewhat convincing.

Lynch Xerxes?

[Witherweaver]

I just want to say again, look back at the end of day 1. As Liopoil had pointed out, I was the first one to back off XP after his claim yesterday! Now if he's town and I'm scum -- as you're willing to believe, Robz -- why would I do that!? If nothing else, I would stay on the claimed doctor until someone else backed off. Or I would just push the lynch anyway, pointing out how scummy a claim doctor is.

I just don't see my play at the end of the day yesterday matches a narrative of joth scum, XP town at all.

Because you want to look like you don't want to lynch our doctor. 

[liopoil]

I just want to say again, look back at the end of day 1. As Liopoil had pointed out, I was the first one to back off XP after his claim yesterday! Now if he's town and I'm scum -- as you're willing to believe, Robz -- why would I do that!? If nothing else, I would stay on the claimed doctor until someone else backed off. Or I would just push the lynch anyway, pointing out how scummy a claim doctor is.

I just don't see my play at the end of the day yesterday matches a narrative of joth scum, XP town at all.

because you were getting a mislynch either way... unless Hydrad is scum, which I doubt.

[jotheonah]

Sure, scum wants town points when t can get them. But given the choice between a nice clean power role mislynch and town points plus an unclear outcome? I don't see it.

[silverspawn]

well joth definitely has a point when he says that he was really active

[silverspawn]

okay collection incoming. the only reason i post it before reading/commenting it is the short amount of time left

[silverspawn]

first! vote:Robz888 because reasons.

vote: Eevee for premeditated lurking.

WW, why claim now? What do you expect us to do with this information?

oh, I thought you were just doing a crazy premature claim to get us out of RVS faster. which I respect in a vague way, but also, meh.

does Voltaire just hate newbies? idk.

that's what we call an OMGUS vote.

sudgy -- what about his OMGUS vote says "mafia" to you and not just "newbie"?

Kingzog, what's your previous mafia experience like?

I've played Werewolf IRL, which is nearly the same thing, with a couple extra roles and a different flavour. Although it's been a very long time since I've played it. I've read some of the wiki, and I'm in general not super dumb.

Okay. The two common pitfalls are haphazard claiming and quickhammering without giving the subject time to decide whether he wants to claim.

Well I haven't claimed anything. Was that quickhammering? I voted for Voltaire because he voted for me, not really a reason. Which is why I unvoted.

I shouldn't use terms a new player has no way of knowing when addressing the common pitfalls for new players. Sorry. You haven't done either, just remember to keep your role (or lack of one) a secret unless you have a very, very good reason to share it, and don't cast the last vote needed to lynch someone unless the general consensus is that the discussion has ran it's course and the accused has had a chance for his final words (for example, to claim his role).

Unless your role is Mafia Goon or anything else with Mafia in front of it. In that case, definitely claim!

I'm not sure there was ever a consensus that RVS was over. But I'll unvote anyway since my vote on Eevee was mostly RVS.

I'm tempted to agree with Eevee here. I'm just going to quote all of sudgy's posts so far in a row.

Wait, so WW, are you a mason or not?

Vote: silverspawn.  I have my legitimate reasons.

Vote: KingZog3 for the OMGUS vote.

Kingzog, what's your previous mafia experience like?

I've played Werewolf IRL, which is nearly the same thing, with a couple extra roles and a different flavour. Although it's been a very long time since I've played it. I've read some of the wiki, and I'm in general not super dumb.

Okay. The two common pitfalls are haphazard claiming and quickhammering without giving the subject time to decide whether he wants to claim.

Well I haven't claimed anything. Was that quickhammering? I voted for Voltaire because he voted for me, not really a reason. Which is why I unvoted.

quickhammering is when you hammer someone (place the final vote for them to be lynched) before giving them ample time to respond.

I'm still keeping my vote on you for your OMGUS.  You haven't said anything in defense even.

It's an OMGUS vote.  Of course it screams mafia.

Sudgy/SK scumteam??

...How in the world does what's happened implicate that?  Vote: XerxesPraelor, my first real vote.

So, sudgy's "first real vote" isn't just his third vote (in 5 posts). It also follows his vote on KingZog, which he reiterates twice and demands a defense for. Now, how on earth is a vote, with a reason, that you reiterate twice and ask for a defense for, not a real vote?

This is scum play: casting about for a wagon until one sticks, and then downplaying past efforts after the fact so it doesn't look like he's doing that.

vote: sudgy

Scum really looks for a wagon to stick during the first real day or two of game?

Well, a lot of time scum just lurks around waiting for a wagon to form and jumps on it. But when the wagon forms on you that's not an option. Also scum is prone to get impatient waiting for that to happen.

Masons are confirmed town to each other, right? Neighbors are the ones who can chat but could also be scum?

Well I guess the unvote is prudent at this point.

Ultimately, the biggest strength of a masonry is that it's two IC's. Now that they have claimed, it's not such a terrible thing if either is nightkilled. Surely they are weakest of our power roles now.

it could also be three or four ICs. (http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=C9%2B%2B#Mason_Roles)

 Which begs the question, now that the cat is out of the bag, should additional masons claim if they exist? it would greatly reduce our lynch pool.

Note, I am asking for speculation on what we should do here, not people jumping out and claiming. I'm just saying if Eevee's right and they're basically ICs ... aren't more ICs better?

i think we shouldn't ignore the possibility that they are a scum team who carefully planed the mason slip. of course, if we were to lynch any one of them, we would probably lynch the other one too, so it's very risky, but even still.

that would just be ballsy as hell. We're looking at a maximum of three mafia members. For two of them to tie themselves together like this would be so much risk, for so little reward, it would be unfathomable.

sounds like someone's getting a little hot under the collar at the prospect of two ICs.

I just wasn't confident enough to back it up with a vote. After being so confident about sudgy and having it blow up like it did I was a little shaken. Wanted to see if anyone else agreed first.

Vote: jotheonah

it's not a strong case, but let's force some reactions

It really isn't a strong case. I would submit that a better case is the one I was too scared to make -- silverspawn's play, of "making sure no one's 100 percent cleared" is definitely something scum would do as early as they could in a discussion like the one we just had.

I'll vote: silverspawn in any case.

It really isn't a strong case. I would submit that a better case is the one I was too scared to make -- silverspawn's play, of "making sure no one's 100 percent cleared" is definitely something scum would do as early as they could in a discussion like the one we just had.

I'll vote: silverspawn in any case.

they aren't 100% cleared. it could be a scum team making a dangerous move. and we should keep that in mind. If you find the truth scummy, I don't know what to tell you.

I find the fact that your first instinct was to point that out scummy. Scum players find ICs very scary. I know if I was suddenly hearing about two and I was scum, I would try to plant the seeds of doubt early in case I needed them later on.

This is also, as WW pointed out, weird:

sounds like someone's getting a little hot under the collar at the prospect of two ICs.

they always had the chance to claim. the fact that they revealed themselves is, while maybe not a big deal, still a good thing for scum. likewise, the prospect of two IC's is not a surprise, but something that was anticipated from the start.

That's a good point, but you can use some version of that against literally any case against scum. When I'm hunting for scum, I'm looking for quick, visceral reactions that don't make sense coming from town but make sense coming from scared scum. And reacting to a barely prompted IC claim with "OMG scum ploy" fits that bill for me.

Ok, Idk why the silverspawn version jumped out at me but the Hydrad one didn't. But on re-read I see y'all's point about Hydrad's posts.

I guess the difference is, I was reading Hydrad as "maybe it's not really a mason claim" and silverspawn as "it's definitely a mason claim but maybe it's a lie." And the second one seems more like the scum play here.

I guess the difference is, I was reading Hydrad as "maybe it's not really a mason claim" and silverspawn as "it's definitely a mason claim but maybe it's a lie." And the second one seems more like the scum play here.

I definitely disagree. Why would scum agree with the first part but try to cast doubt on the second?

Because casting doubt on the first part doesn't do any good. Sudgy or SK just comes out and says "Yup, Masons" and that's the end of it. The second part, though, can turn into a whole big thing.

I don't much like the Robz vote here from Voltaire. It's too easy just to vote for the person who isn't around. And I'm inclined to give Robz the benefit of the doubt because once he starts playing he'll be handy to have around.

Where on earth is this townread on silverspawn coming from?

Oh, I see.  I thought Volt was saying the only 2 Mafia option was in possible.

Mafia and SK are on different teams, though.  So possibilities are 2 Mafia + 1 SK, 3 Mafia, 3 Mafia + 1 SK.

oh when he said 3 scum. Doesn't that include SK as a scum? so for me a goon,godfather,  SK selection means 3 scum right?

uh....I'm not scum.

I actually can't tell if you're just being funny or not, but in mafia SK stands for Serial Killer, a possible role in this game.

I'll say this is proof that SK is not a serial killer

There was already 0% chance of him being a serial killer given the mason claim.

HE KILLS THE PEOPLE AND THEN BUILDS THEM INTO THE WALLS

lol

Deadline is Tuesday and I'm not sure how active I'll be able to be on the weekend (I'm moving and probably won't have wifi set up yet in the new place). If you're in a similar position, do what I'm going to do today: re-read the thread and post something of substance. Especially people who have been lurking so far.

Scummy things on re-read:

It's a very, very natural for a new player to think "I am town, how dares he vote for me! He must be scum.".

When I thought that there was no exclamation mark. And tbh, I wasn't thinking that he was scum. Just "how dare he vote for me."

Ok, this is pretty scummy -- Zog actually admitting to voting for someone he didn't think was scum. And we all sort of let that slip by. But, idk, in context it sort of fits with how newbie he's being. So not sure it's the best case today.

The case I actually like here is XP. During RVS, he throws his vote around a lot, that's fine, everyone does that. Then the case starts building on sudgy and he really shamelessly sheeps it:

vote: sudgy

Baa.

Then he does something he'll do over and over again: defend Robz in Robz's absence, despite that Robz has posted nothing of substance all day.

Didn't you just see robz has no time right now to defend himself?

Sudgy/SK scumteam??

The main thing I don't like is his going back to RVS after something has already begun that he has an opinion on.

A few people vote for him over his SK/sudgy scumteam accusation. He rapidly backs off.

Whatever. Forget the SK thing. I do think Sudgy overreacted here, but maybe we should leave that for another day. Sudgy tends to get lynched for this independent of alignment.

unvote

I have a small scumread on Eevee for using overreaction as the case on sudgy when he should know better.

Sudgy "over"reacts all the time, whether scum or town, and Eevee's been around long enough to know this. It's a null tell for him.

Then he disappears for like 5 pages, and then posts this.

Why is everyone voting for robz?

I think vet scum would just accept it immediately, like they did in dice Mafia. Kind of like Eevee, who also jumped on the easiest ladder that very well might have gone through except for the unforeseen mason claim, especially knowing that sudgy is an easy mislynch.

Silverspawn/Hydrad's reactions, since they're newer, are also bad, but Hydras sounds more sincere to me somehow.

Voltaire has me in his suspicion list, which I don't like, but he seems to be acting pretty towny.

Witherweaver, Joth, and KingZog haven't done anything I noticed, so I'll have to look at them later.

That, after the second defense of Robz/panic about Robz votes, strikes me as a classic scum "acti-lurking" post. It tries to look like participation, but fails to pin down anything worthwhile or add anything new.

By the way, as I far as I know, I've reposted everything XP has posted in this thread since RVS. And it's consisted of:

-sheeping
-lurking
-actilurking
-backpedaling
-being weirdly concerned about Robz

All that is enough for me to Vote: XerxesPraelor. I hope you will all join me.

Just looking over my post again, I admit I say "over and over again" about something that only happened twice. But twice in very few posts, so I think it's still relevant.

I won't vote joth, though, because I think my case on Eevee is stronger than the small amount of scumminess joth has.

vote: joth

Huh? Also OMGUS much?

That's okay. Maybe I was confusing you with someone else.

vote: TA for being the last person to post.

^Xerxes' last post before the one I started with. Literally a random vote.

unofficial vote count, just because there has been a lot of voting since the last one:

Eevee (2): Hydrad, XP
Robz888 (2): chairs, Voltaire
Hydrad (2): Witherweaver, Eevee
jotheonah (1): SK
XerxesPraelor (3): jotheonah, Kingzog3, sudgy
TwistedArcher (1): silverspawn

Not Voting (2): Robz888, Twistedarcher

With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch.

Day 1 ends at 6:00pm FT on September 2nd.

Would it be too much trouble to ask the Hydrad voters to lay out their case in one post so we can compare the merits of the two cases more easily? I'm certainly not against a Hydrad lynch, but I do think I like XP better right now.

It's amazing how little action is happening so close to deadline. Does no one have strong opinions? Robz, TA, chairs is it possible for you to participate some more? Anyone else want to switch to XP?

Twisted archer forgetting sudgy was a pseudo-IC is a pretty big deal. Wasn't there a game where town caught scum in more or less exactly that way?

Scum already knows who town is (more or less; there could be a SK). Town doesn't. So when someone gets confirmed town, town players will lock that information away, but scum players might forget about it. For them it wasn't new.

I swear there is a historical example of this exact slip up in an F.DS game. I was hoping one of you remembered it so we could look to it and see whether the person ended up being scum or not.

XP, do you have a case on me besides OMGUS? Because if you do I would love to address it.

Witherweaver, I'm on my mobile so it's sort of a pain to quote, but I'll go back and find the post for you after I post this.

Sudgy strikes me as his idealistic town self

I see some merit in the case, and I also think TA is reacting to it in a scummy way. I still like XP the most, but in the interest of getting some movement going, vote: twistedarcher

I presented a case I really liked on XP! It got kaiboshed when WW and Eevee said "nope, don't buy it, he's town" without much explanation. I switched to TA because I thought the XP wagon was just not going to move past where it was.

I considered Ww and/or Eevee as XP's scum buddies. But it's way too clunky a play for vets like that.

If we can get Robz on board, I'm happy to switch  back to vote: XP. I agree TA wagon was moving waaaaayyy too fast.

Link to my case, for Robz:

Scummy things on re-read:

It's a very, very natural for a new player to think "I am town, how dares he vote for me! He must be scum.".

When I thought that there was no exclamation mark. And tbh, I wasn't thinking that he was scum. Just "how dare he vote for me."

Ok, this is pretty scummy -- Zog actually admitting to voting for someone he didn't think was scum. And we all sort of let that slip by. But, idk, in context it sort of fits with how newbie he's being. So not sure it's the best case today.

The case I actually like here is XP. During RVS, he throws his vote around a lot, that's fine, everyone does that. Then the case starts building on sudgy and he really shamelessly sheeps it:

vote: sudgy

Baa.

Then he does something he'll do over and over again: defend Robz in Robz's absence, despite that Robz has posted nothing of substance all day.

Didn't you just see robz has no time right now to defend himself?

Sudgy/SK scumteam??

The main thing I don't like is his going back to RVS after something has already begun that he has an opinion on.

A few people vote for him over his SK/sudgy scumteam accusation. He rapidly backs off.

Whatever. Forget the SK thing. I do think Sudgy overreacted here, but maybe we should leave that for another day. Sudgy tends to get lynched for this independent of alignment.

unvote

I have a small scumread on Eevee for using overreaction as the case on sudgy when he should know better.

Sudgy "over"reacts all the time, whether scum or town, and Eevee's been around long enough to know this. It's a null tell for him.

Then he disappears for like 5 pages, and then posts this.

Why is everyone voting for robz?

I think vet scum would just accept it immediately, like they did in dice Mafia. Kind of like Eevee, who also jumped on the easiest ladder that very well might have gone through except for the unforeseen mason claim, especially knowing that sudgy is an easy mislynch.

Silverspawn/Hydrad's reactions, since they're newer, are also bad, but Hydras sounds more sincere to me somehow.

Voltaire has me in his suspicion list, which I don't like, but he seems to be acting pretty towny.

Witherweaver, Joth, and KingZog haven't done anything I noticed, so I'll have to look at them later.

That, after the second defense of Robz/panic about Robz votes, strikes me as a classic scum "acti-lurking" post. It tries to look like participation, but fails to pin down anything worthwhile or add anything new.

By the way, as I far as I know, I've reposted everything XP has posted in this thread since RVS. And it's consisted of:

-sheeping
-lurking
-actilurking
-backpedaling
-being weirdly concerned about Robz

All that is enough for me to Vote: XerxesPraelor. I hope you will all join me.

I could be wrong, but I think people were voting for Robz more so than for you. If Robz is scum and XP is scum, then XP's defense of Robz would have stemmed out of panic that his absentee partner was going to get lurker lynched. But this scenario is pretty wacky now, what with Robz resurrecting my case on XP at the last minute.

If XP is scum and Robz is town and you're scum (you being TA) then it would make sense for XP to defend Robz and not you, because scum is often paranoid (and rightly so) about defending their partner.

If you're both town and XP is scum, I think it goes back to the fact that Robz had votes on him. Whether or not to lynch someone who hasn't posted yet is an argument scum loves to have, because both sides produce content without committing to a read: if Robz had been posting and XP defended him, he would have had to backpedal if he wanted to lynch Robz later. But if you're defending a lurker on principle, you can easily pivot back to wanting to lunch them as soon as they  posted a few things.

Of course, it's certainly possible town XP defends Robz too. I myself spoke out against a day one lurker lynch earlier in the day. As I said in my OP, it's the fact that he does it twice with relatively little pressure on Robz that makes it weird.

I presented a case I really liked on Eevee! It got kaiboshed when everyone said "nope, don't buy it, he's town" without much explanation. I switched to TA because I thought the Eevee wagon was just not going to move past where it was.

I considered Ww and/or Voltaire as Eevee's scum buddies. But it's way too clunky a play for vets like that.

If I can get anyone on board, I'm happy to switch  back to vote: Eevee. I agree TA wagon was moving waaaaayyy too fast.

However, I think No Lynch is the best possible thing now.

Yeah but Eevee is obvtown. And No Lynch is a terrible idea.

I just have strong reads on Eevee and WW and not much reason to suspect them. Obviously they could be scum, but they're not where I'm interested in looking today.

I don't think that's L1. I think it's L2.

it also seems like everyone is cool with lynching hydrad but no one is actually voting for him.

it also seems like everyone is cool with lynching hydrad but no one is actually voting for him.

Have voted before, would vote again (if needed)

but why though

All people should vote for Hydrad.

Only if TA turns out not to be possible.

I won't vote for TA. I don't believe Robz will. His wagon moved way too fast with no opposition. He's either town or his team has given up on him. Or, I guess, Robz is his teammate and just totally played me which, I'll admit is a possibility.

But sure, vote: Hydrad. We need a lynch.

Alright. Vote: XerxesPraelor.

XP, that's L1. Time for final defense.

TA, I trust you to give him as much time as you can, and then hammer to avoid no lynch.

sdkjhdkjhfg unvote

vote: hydra

it's like the most obvious claim for scum to make here, but I don't think we can ignore it.

this is awful though. now he will just be NK'd, and because he is doctor, there is noone who can doctor him

we should not have pressured him.

If he is in fact the doctor, yes that's awful. But it's still very likely that was just a desperate scum ploy to stay alive.

If there is an actual doctor: DO NOT COUNTERCLAIM.

Also, this set up can have multiple doctors.

unvote

what do we even do here? Go for TA? He was already at L1 and didn't claim? Or do we try and get a totally new lynch going (I could make a case for silverspawn, did not like his response to the XP claim)?

Unvote

4 letters...

?

He means we now know (assuming people are telling the truth) 4 letters of the C9++ setup: MMDV.

I'll be around until deadline, so I can hammer if there's no other option (if one other person votes).

TA, if you're planning to claim (heaven help us) I guess you'd better do it now.

on a different note, shouldn't people always claim a PR if they are on L-1? So, it shouldn't be unexpected.

...no. scum should claim a PR if they're on L1. Town should only do that if, you know, they have a PR.

I am write that the deadline is in an hour and 15 minutes, right?

on a different note, shouldn't people always claim a PR if they are on L-1? So, it shouldn't be unexpected.

...no. scum should claim a PR if they're on L1. Town should only do that if, you know, they have a PR.

I am write that the deadline is in an hour and 15 minutes, right?

if the setup allows for multiple doctors, I would claim doctor if I was about to die, even as a VT. Maybe even if there can be just one doctor. as you said, he should not counterclaim.

That would typically be a very bad move.

I mean, I guess you maybe eat the scum shot and save a real PR? But you force the town to panic lynch, which potentially outs a real PR. So the risk and reward kind of cancel out. Like if XP is lying VT, he just forced Hydra to out himself.

Very well.

vote: TwistedArcher

I mean, I think there's a decent chance XP is scum, but I guess we're going by least likely to hit a PR than most likely to hit town, so oh well.

If XP is alive tomorrow, I'm sure he'll be back on the table.

Haven't caught up yet. I'm V/LA this weekend. Going to a wedding in Minneapolis and didn't bring my computer.

IF we have 4 PRs, scum has a roleblocker. But we have no particular reason to believe Hydrad or XP's claim still.

One night kill seems like good news anyway. All things considered we could be a lot further behind. I think we need to look at TA's wagon next and see if any of the jump-ons look scummy. Like I said, I won't be able to contribute in a serious way until Monday.

Now getting overwhelmingly townie impression from XP, totally wrong on initial guess today. Also feeling silverspawn is town.

No especially townie feelings toward Eevee and Voltaire, the most dangerous suspects.

I don't like this at all. We know scum didn't kill XP (assuming for the moment he is the doctor). I feel like in the case where scum leaves a claimed doctor alive, their next move is trying to mislynch them -- exactly what Robz was angling for at the start of the day.

Then the case fails to gain traction and he posts this, immediately backpedalling and trying to direct suspicion onto totally new targets.

vote: Robz

FYI, I'm about to get on a plane home from MN, so starting tonight but especially Monday I'll be able to start posting more.

remember that there can be multiple doctors in this setup. XP could have been doctored, and even if he was not, scum could have feared that.

That's a possibility, but Occam's razor applies here I think. Until I have reason to think otherwise, it makes more sense that there's one scum faction and they shot sudgy, than that there are two, one shit sudgy, the other shot XP but he was doctored.

I was going to wait for the rest of XP's case to respond but I guess I might as well jump in now?

I'm not sure there was ever a consensus that RVS was over. But I'll unvote anyway since my vote on Eevee was mostly RVS.

I got to get my vote off my partner before people see him as a good wagon.

Calling teams at the start of day 2 with no flips, ok.

That's a good point, but you can use some version of that against literally any case against scum. When I'm hunting for scum, I'm looking for quick, visceral reactions that don't make sense coming from town but make sense coming from scared scum. And reacting to a barely prompted IC claim with "OMG scum ploy" fits that bill for me.

Misrepresentation of what someone said is scummy.

How exactly did I misrepresent someone here?

Out of context, I agree. But if you look back at that quote and the preceding 5 or 6 posts, I think you'll find that I made my meaning very clear and that was just a final, pithy restatement. Here are the other times I stated that case beforehand:

silverspawn's play, of "making sure no one's 100 percent cleared" is definitely something scum would do as early as they could in a discussion like the one we just had.

I find the fact that your first instinct was to point that out scummy. Scum players find ICs very scary. I know if I was suddenly hearing about two and I was scum, I would try to plant the seeds of doubt early in case I needed them later on.

So now who's misrepresenting whom, eh?

Hydrad's point on Eevee buddying is kind of interesting.  Does Eevee have a history of this?

I feel old.

Eevee's meta is buddying. He will buddy you. That's a thing as strongly as you being scum or Robz claiming IC or ash having an insane plan.

Unfortunately, he will buddy you as scum or as town.

Eevee and Robz are both strong scum players who can fool you for a whole game, in my experience, which makes them good suspects in games where you're like "OMG everyone seems like town". This is part of why my vote is on Robz. That and the fact that he had almost no day 1 play and his day 2 play fits with a scum narrative re: XP that makes a lot of sense to me.

Hydrad's point on Eevee buddying is kind of interesting.  Does Eevee have a history of this?

I feel old.

Eevee's meta is buddying. He will buddy you. That's a thing as strongly as you being scum or Robz claiming IC or ash having an insane plan.

What about that Voltaire guy?  He have a buddying meta?

I have a hard time remembering Voltaire's meta because I get him mixed up with Voltgloss. But he's another one I tend to have a town read on, even when he's scum. Definitely worth a closer look.

can we get a vote count?

So something is clearly not working for this game right now.

I'd be willing to lynch WW, Zog, chairs, XP, and Robz, to significantly different degrees. My vote is where I want it right now. I think chairs is actually a darn good lynch. Stalled game, scum clearly is fine with that, lynch a lurker. chairs, if you're town, we need you to actually do something.

I don't think it makes sense to blame scum for a stalled game. Scum is, at most, 4 people. It takes a whole town to not talk. I think everyone should post a vote or a case or a reads list or SOMETHING.

Why KingZong? he looks very towny to me. I believe scum!KingZong would have been less aggressive towards me.

He's one of my don't-wanting-to-lynch-but-still-willing-to-lynch players. Partially through POE based on reads, partially because I have swung so far in my reading newbies-thing that now I assume they can never be scum and well that is going to bite me in the butt at some point mathematically.

chairs's asking to be replaced actually strikes me as rather townie. vote: Witherweaver. Or Robz. Who wants to pick?

Robz! RObz! It's like I've been saying!

I mean, seriously, what am I supposed to do with your reply here? Do you not see how there is no situation in which assuming you to be town is not the worst gamble ever?

the triple negative here is pretty confusing

SK, times like this are when an IC can really be helpful. You could start leading, giving directions, asking questions. You know, stimulating the discussion.

This Robz-Volt fight is making me start to like Robz a little more and Volt a little less. Unvote for now, I need to re-read Voltaire.

We have a little time before deadline, 5 days. That's time to get ourselves a worthwhile lynch if we all actually do something.

vote: Hydrad

thank you for reminding me, silverspawn.

I think silverspawn is playing a very towny game here.

I'm starting to feel like silverspawn is trying too hard, actually. Sometimes he seems REALLY towny. Other times he seems to have an almost ... forced joviality. I think I find him scummy.

No idea what to make of Robz, as usual.

Liking Voltaire less and less and starting to see how WW might be scum, too (he's posted a lot in a very towny way, but what has he really contributed? What stands has he really taken?

So, liopoil, why do you think XP is lying? If you do think XP is lying, why do you think he named such a weird protection target?

Catching up now.

joth, that's about the 54,221th time you've said you "feel unsure" about me and need to re-read me. Are you loving the idea of mislynching Volt but don't want to press a fakecase if you don't have support? Because it's really starting to feel that way.

I think it's the third time, but thanks for making it clear that you feel more pressure on yourself than actually exists. That is the classic-ist of scum tells.

Honestly, I just haven't gotten around to actually doing the re-read yet. But you know what? Vote: Voltaire

I want back on the Robz wagon.

Unvote

Robz you have to realize the "I'm town, I wouldn't play this poorly as scum" defense is not a very convincing one.  And that you make that defense as town means you would make it as scum, too.

Well, the point is, though, that I wouldn't play like that as scum, because it's reckless and dangerous. I would just post more on Day 2 and avoid getting lurker lynched, if I were scum. Sure, I could make that argument as scum, but I wouldn't actually have played like that at scum, because it's unnecessarily risky.

Wasn't everybody getting on my case earlier for saying "if I were scum"?

Also, I think the play does make sense for you as scum. Scum more or less knows XP is a doctor, if he is. Getting him lynched to save them a nightkill, especially when there's another IC to use the nightkill on, is smart. And given how yesterday shook out you had every reason to believe that an early vote on XP would coalesce into a wagon pretty quickly. It wasn't a risky play.

vote: Robz

I like this better than Voltaire because it's an actual case I can back up. My Voltaire vote was more of a knee-jerk emotional vote.

I don't like Liopoil's coming back in and immediately voting for XP much, either. As I've said, post-claim XP wagon is a scum wagon and it doesn't bode well for liopoil that all he's done is jumped in and tried to start that fire.

I was sure. I never said it was a good idea, just that it was likely to happen.

But in my mind, the more I think about it, his weird claim to have protected silverspawn is a pretty clear towntell. Scum!XP would have spent all night thinking about how to best re-inforce his fake claim the next day, and he would have come up with something better than that.

Whereas town!XP had less time to think about who to protect, and may well have been thinking less critically about it. After all, town!XP had to make the decision quickly at night, whereas scum!XP had partners to talk it over with.

All of my posts including this one have been from my phone, I'll be home soon. I was subbed in while I was asleep and those posts were all I had time for in the morning. And I didn't even vote for XP yet. So that one post by joth is pretty absurd. I'll answer all the questions that have been asked of me and read the rest of the thread very soon.

You're right, pushing a case and not actually voting is much townier. 

Seriously though, thanks for replacing in!

Vigs are not terrifying for scum night one. They are probably scum's best friends.

Also read the set up. Not only doctors but multiple doctors are possible.

I'm not sure how you can think XP and I are partners. I started the wagon against him that got him to L1, right?

Scummy things on re-read:

It's a very, very natural for a new player to think "I am town, how dares he vote for me! He must be scum.".

When I thought that there was no exclamation mark. And tbh, I wasn't thinking that he was scum. Just "how dare he vote for me."

Ok, this is pretty scummy -- Zog actually admitting to voting for someone he didn't think was scum. And we all sort of let that slip by. But, idk, in context it sort of fits with how newbie he's being. So not sure it's the best case today.

The case I actually like here is XP. During RVS, he throws his vote around a lot, that's fine, everyone does that. Then the case starts building on sudgy and he really shamelessly sheeps it:

vote: sudgy

Baa.

Then he does something he'll do over and over again: defend Robz in Robz's absence, despite that Robz has posted nothing of substance all day.

Didn't you just see robz has no time right now to defend himself?

Sudgy/SK scumteam??

The main thing I don't like is his going back to RVS after something has already begun that he has an opinion on.

A few people vote for him over his SK/sudgy scumteam accusation. He rapidly backs off.

Whatever. Forget the SK thing. I do think Sudgy overreacted here, but maybe we should leave that for another day. Sudgy tends to get lynched for this independent of alignment.

unvote

I have a small scumread on Eevee for using overreaction as the case on sudgy when he should know better.

Sudgy "over"reacts all the time, whether scum or town, and Eevee's been around long enough to know this. It's a null tell for him.

Then he disappears for like 5 pages, and then posts this.

Why is everyone voting for robz?

I think vet scum would just accept it immediately, like they did in dice Mafia. Kind of like Eevee, who also jumped on the easiest ladder that very well might have gone through except for the unforeseen mason claim, especially knowing that sudgy is an easy mislynch.

Silverspawn/Hydrad's reactions, since they're newer, are also bad, but Hydras sounds more sincere to me somehow.

Voltaire has me in his suspicion list, which I don't like, but he seems to be acting pretty towny.

Witherweaver, Joth, and KingZog haven't done anything I noticed, so I'll have to look at them later.

That, after the second defense of Robz/panic about Robz votes, strikes me as a classic scum "acti-lurking" post. It tries to look like participation, but fails to pin down anything worthwhile or add anything new.

By the way, as I far as I know, I've reposted everything XP has posted in this thread since RVS. And it's consisted of:

-sheeping
-lurking
-actilurking
-backpedaling
-being weirdly concerned about Robz

All that is enough for me to Vote: XerxesPraelor. I hope you will all join me.

Is this a post a dude writes about his partner? And then I continue to push despite multiple viable other wagons.

I'm not sure how you can think XP and I are partners. I started the wagon against him that got him to L1, right?

Didn't say you are partners, though that is plausible. You since jumped your vote around a lot, IIRC. Plus bussing is a thing. Is it the most likely thing? no. Is it at all out of the question? no. I have an independent scumread on both of you.

Your case on me was at least partly based on my freaking out and backing off in response to XP's doctor claim, which is only a scummy play if XP is also town.

I still don't buy this XP as scum case for the reasons outlined earlier. No reason to "protect" silverspawn when it's much easier, safer, and more plausible to claim protection of the surviving mason. WIFOM, yes, but (no offense) I don't put him on that level of play.

Sorry I meant "if XP is also scum" above. Phone posting.

WW, can I ask you to reconsider Eevee? I haven't re-read him, so this is a pretty barely-formulated case, but his behavior right now (saying over and over again that he's working on a reread but never actually posting anything) is pretty classic scum actilurking. I can't think of a single meaningful contribution he's made this game, at least not since he spotted the mason claim at the very very beginning. He's just sort of been hovering around, seeming towny.

We've already established we think Hydrad is either a vig or a SK, so, as it happened, if he is town, him shooting really wouldn't have helped us at all.

But, if he was a SK and his shot got blocked, I'm pretty sure he would claim he tried to shoot because why not, so that gives him town points in my eyes. I don't think he would have shot sudgy, after claiming to be a vig, if he was a serial killer.

Hmm also claiming 1 shot vig doesn't work for a sk really. Unless I'm planning on only shooting once the entire game and hoping to win with just town cred.

Pretty sure I claimed 1-shot vig as an SK. It makes more sense then you think. If you claim regular vig, scum just kills you. You're too dangerous. If you're a SK who is forced to claim day 1 (terrible situation to be in, btw) you still have to toe that line of ot getting lynched AND not getting shot, and the 1-shot vig is the best chance at that (because once you've "used your shot" you're just a named VT and not a high priority for a scum NK)

WW, can I ask you to reconsider Eevee? I haven't re-read him, so this is a pretty barely-formulated case, but his behavior right now (saying over and over again that he's working on a reread but never actually posting anything) is pretty classic scum actilurking. I can't think of a single meaningful contribution he's made this game, at least not since he spotted the mason claim at the very very beginning. He's just sort of been hovering around, seeming towny.

I mean, yeah, sorry it took me longer than I anticipated, but I reread the entire game to get a better idea. You are basically blaming me for promising to do it faster than I actually did, conveniently forgetting I actually did a full reread to get a better grasp on this.

When I posted you hadn't posted yet. But then you did. I am now feeling quite towny about you.

Well, I am still not entirely sold on XP as scum, but if it's between him and me, vote: XP

Hydrad, FWIW, he's not doing us much good as a doctor even if he is one now. He's too susceptible to roleblocking or just being the nightkill.

I still don't really understand the case against me here. Everyone just seems to be saying "I re-read joth and he seems scummy. Vote." But I don't think my behavior has been scummy at all. In a town full of lurkers I've been breaking my back trying to scumhunt. In fact for most of this game I've been trying harder than I ever try to make cases and really catch scum. Maybe that's why people think I'm playing differently than normal? It's certainly frustrating to see people who have made no real contributions getting town passes for being generally agreeable, while I get vague suspicion from every corner for putting myself out there and pushing reads and cases.

It would help me a lot if someone could actually lay out the so-called case on me.

And again with the vagueness. When I flip town, look closely at who built a case and who was just like "joth is the obvious pick here" with no real explanation.

I just want to say again, look back at the end of day 1. As Liopoil had pointed out, I was the first one to back off XP after his claim yesterday! Now if he's town and I'm scum -- as you're willing to believe, Robz -- why would I do that!? If nothing else, I would stay on the claimed doctor until someone else backed off. Or I would just push the lynch anyway, pointing out how scummy a claim doctor is.

I just don't see my play at the end of the day yesterday matches a narrative of joth scum, XP town at all.

I just want to say again, look back at the end of day 1. As Liopoil had pointed out, I was the first one to back off XP after his claim yesterday! Now if he's town and I'm scum -- as you're willing to believe, Robz -- why would I do that!? If nothing else, I would stay on the claimed doctor until someone else backed off. Or I would just push the lynch anyway, pointing out how scummy a claim doctor is.

I just don't see my play at the end of the day yesterday matches a narrative of joth scum, XP town at all.

Sure, scum wants town points when t can get them. But given the choice between a nice clean power role mislynch and town points plus an unclear outcome? I don't see it.

[XerxesPraelor]

I'm going to not be around soon, so

vote: joth

 I'm again really not sure what's best, like with TA. Only lynch him if you feel like you need to, but I'm voting so that if you do, it's easier.

[silverspawn]

is this L-1? If so, do not hammer.

[XerxesPraelor]

I believe it's at L-1 for joth and L-2 for me.