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Who won this mini-debate?

mail-mi, for the subject
- 1 (7.1%)
Faust, against the subject
- 13 (92.9%)

Total Members Voted: 14

Voting closed: May 31, 2014, 03:38:01 am


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Author Topic: Do scumslips exist in any type of forum game?  (Read 9513 times)

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ashersky

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Do scumslips exist in any type of forum game?
« on: May 28, 2014, 09:38:37 am »

RSPers,

As part of a forum mafia game, we are having a debate!  If it were part of a mafia game, which it isn't, it would be called: Mafia 43: Debate 1.1 (ROR vs. PNK): Scumslips exist.

mail-mi will argue for the subject.
Faust will argue against the subject.

Each player will make one, and only one, post for their argument.  Afterward, I will open a poll for anyone to vote.

Thanks!
« Last Edit: June 08, 2014, 09:47:25 am by ashersky »
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Re: Mafia 43: Debate 1.1 (ROR vs. PNK): Scumslips exist.
« Reply #1 on: May 28, 2014, 01:44:34 pm »

/tag
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Re: Mafia 43: Debate 1.1 (ROR vs. PNK): Scumslips exist.
« Reply #2 on: May 28, 2014, 02:49:24 pm »

/tag
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Re: Mafia 43: Debate 1.1 (ROR vs. PNK): Scumslips exist.
« Reply #3 on: May 28, 2014, 03:14:21 pm »

/tag
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Re: Mafia 43: Debate 1.1 (ROR vs. PNK): Scumslips exist.
« Reply #4 on: May 28, 2014, 03:22:40 pm »

tag
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Voltaire

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Re: Mafia 43: Debate 1.1 (ROR vs. PNK): Scumslips exist.
« Reply #5 on: May 28, 2014, 03:27:31 pm »

/tag
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Re: Mafia 43: Debate 1.1 (ROR vs. PNK): Scumslips exist.
« Reply #6 on: May 28, 2014, 03:32:41 pm »

/tag and looking forward to post-debate discussion.
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Re: Mafia 43: Debate 1.1 (ROR vs. PNK): Scumslips exist.
« Reply #7 on: May 28, 2014, 03:43:08 pm »

/tag and looking forward to post-debate discussion.

You mean post-debate debate?
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Re: Mafia 43: Debate 1.1 (ROR vs. PNK): Scumslips exist.
« Reply #8 on: May 28, 2014, 03:44:09 pm »

How is this even a debate?  Of course they exist.

And if I weren't lazy, I would make a novelty account named scumslips now.
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Re: Mafia 43: Debate 1.1 (ROR vs. PNK): Scumslips exist.
« Reply #9 on: May 28, 2014, 04:20:29 pm »

/tag
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ashersky

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Re: Mafia 43: Debate 1.1 (ROR vs. PNK): Scumslips exist.
« Reply #10 on: May 28, 2014, 05:34:24 pm »

Posting deadline for debaters is 24 hours from thread creation.
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Re: Mafia 43: Debate 1.1 (ROR vs. PNK): Scumslips exist.
« Reply #11 on: May 28, 2014, 05:37:48 pm »

tag
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Re: Mafia 43: Debate 1.1 (ROR vs. PNK): Scumslips exist.
« Reply #12 on: May 28, 2014, 06:04:33 pm »


Each player will make one, and only one, post for their argument.  Afterward, I will open a poll for anyone to vote.


I suggest having each player posting a rebuttal after each player has posted their initial arguments.
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Re: Mafia 43: Debate 1.1 (ROR vs. PNK): Scumslips exist.
« Reply #13 on: May 28, 2014, 07:13:21 pm »


Each player will make one, and only one, post for their argument.  Afterward, I will open a poll for anyone to vote.


I suggest having each player posting a rebuttal after each player has posted their initial arguments.

time constraints.  rebuttals are what the post-debate debate is for
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Re: Mafia 43: Debate 1.1 (ROR vs. PNK): Scumslips exist.
« Reply #14 on: May 28, 2014, 07:23:27 pm »


Each player will make one, and only one, post for their argument.  Afterward, I will open a poll for anyone to vote.


I suggest having each player posting a rebuttal after each player has posted their initial arguments.

time constraints.  rebuttals are what the post-debate debate is for

Is the result of this debate critical to some on-going game?  If not, I don't see what time constraints there are.
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Re: Mafia 43: Debate 1.1 (ROR vs. PNK): Scumslips exist.
« Reply #15 on: May 28, 2014, 07:29:22 pm »


Each player will make one, and only one, post for their argument.  Afterward, I will open a poll for anyone to vote.


I suggest having each player posting a rebuttal after each player has posted their initial arguments.

time constraints.  rebuttals are what the post-debate debate is for

Is the result of this debate critical to some on-going game?  If not, I don't see what time constraints there are.
I think it is, though I'm not really following it.
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ashersky

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Re: Mafia 43: Debate 1.1 (ROR vs. PNK): Scumslips exist.
« Reply #16 on: May 28, 2014, 09:30:51 pm »


Each player will make one, and only one, post for their argument.  Afterward, I will open a poll for anyone to vote.


I suggest having each player posting a rebuttal after each player has posted their initial arguments.

time constraints.  rebuttals are what the post-debate debate is for

Is the result of this debate critical to some on-going game?  If not, I don't see what time constraints there are.

3 rounds of two debates each, needs to be done within a game day.
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Re: Mafia 43: Debate 1.1 (ROR vs. PNK): Scumslips exist.
« Reply #17 on: May 28, 2014, 11:28:06 pm »

I'm arguing for scumslips, correct? Okay here we go.

Scumslips exist. There's always the classic example of Captain_Frisk's "I have a 0% chance of being town," and there are many counterexamples. Scumslips do exist, however, though not all of the things we think of as scumslips are actually scumslips.

Scumslips are something that you post that outs you as scum. There are blatant scumslips, like the one shown above, but there are also more subtle scumslips. How are you ever going to find that first scum if something in their post does not out them as scum? For the other teamates, you can look for interactions with the dead scum, but how do you find the first one? Wait for a lucky vig shot, a random lynch? No, you get reads. Sometimes those reads are from gut feelings, but a lot of the time, they are from reading the other players' posts and looking for something that sticks out that is scummy, or is a scumslip.

Scumslips exist.
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Re: Mafia 43: Debate 1.1 (ROR vs. PNK): Scumslips exist.
« Reply #18 on: May 30, 2014, 03:22:57 am »

There has been a lot of talk about scumslips. In almost every mafia game, at some point a player is going to point out a post of another player as "scumslip". Before we go into details concerning the merit of these arguments, we first need to get our definitions straight.

So what is a "scumslip", and how can we differentiate it from the more general "scumtell"? Scumtell can describe pretty much anything that makes you think a person is scum. Interactions with other players, voting history, activity level, defensiveness etc. can all be scumtells. "Scumslip" is used in a much more narrow way. There are basically two kinds of behaviour that are usually classified as "scumslip":

1) Accidentally writing a scum-related thing in your post instead of a town-related thing. Captain_Frisk's "0% chance" fits here, as well as the <b>scumslip</b>.

2) Making an argument based on information that one should not have access to. Examples can be knowing the exact size of the mafia team, knowing that there is a SK, having information about night actions and so on.

Now I don't think we even have to argue about 1. If you're an active mafia player, just ask yourself: how many times have you accidentally written "scum" instead of "town"? Does it happen more often if you are indeed scum? Advotcates of scumslips might want to point to the original Captain_Frisk scumslip, saying "but there it worked"! Well, sure. Every game features around 25% mafia, so if you're using a scumslip argument often enough, it will hit scum at some point. The same is true though about the argument "that player used T as the first letter of their first post". If you are lynching based on this, you will be successful sometimes, but that doesn't say anything about the validity of your argument.

The second kind of scumslip seems more legit, at least at first glance. If people are using information that a standard town member couldn't have, it has to come from somewhere, right? How this argument is ultimately flawed tough can be seen when it's taken to an extreme: You could use this argument to lynch a claimed Cop with a guilty result. Because, obviously, the Cop has information that mafia would have - namely, who one mafia player is - so they have to be scum!

This leads us to one of the reasons the "scumslip" argument is wrong. There are mulitple ways in which you may get to know more about the setup than others do. You may be a town PR. You may have made some connections from things that happened earlier that others haven't made. You may have read the setup post carefully.

Secondly, there's the kind of posts that are based on knowledge that isn't actually there. You might appear to "know" something others don't, but only because you didn't think everything through. Another thing happens when some people believe in a theory, and they trust this theory so strongly that they assume it to be true. This often happens when players act as though they know there's a SK, even though they don't.

Thirdly, the argument is flawed because scum is careful. They will think twice before posting something. That means that they are actually more likely to eliminate obvious errors in their reasoning than town players are. By saying "this is a scumslip", you have to assume that scum let this slip happen, and more often than not, they won't. There are cases in which they actually slip, but by the points before, these are mostly indistinguishable from instances where town just makes a bad argument.

So ultimately no, scumslips don't exist.
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ashersky

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Re: Mafia 43: Debate 1.1 (ROR vs. PNK): Scumslips exist.
« Reply #19 on: May 30, 2014, 03:36:53 am »

Thanks to the debaters.  The thread will lock for 24 hours and a poll will go up.

After the voting period ends, the thread will reopen for discussion as desired.
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Re: Mafia 43: Debate 1.1 (ROR vs. PNK): Scumslips exist.
« Reply #20 on: May 31, 2014, 08:15:20 am »

Open for discussion of the subject.
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Re: Mafia 43: Debate 1.1 (ROR vs. PNK): Scumslips exist.
« Reply #21 on: May 31, 2014, 10:25:13 am »

Seems a bit one sided, scumslips obviously exist
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Re: Mafia 43: Debate 1.1 (ROR vs. PNK): Scumslips exist.
« Reply #22 on: May 31, 2014, 11:48:18 am »

Seems a bit one sided, scumslips obviously exist

vote: Ozle L-0
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Re: Mafia 43: Debate 1.1 (ROR vs. PNK): Scumslips exist.
« Reply #23 on: May 31, 2014, 12:04:49 pm »

Seems a bit one sided, scumslips obviously exist

I agree that they exist, but I voted for faust for making a better argument.
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Re: Mafia 43: Debate 1.1 (ROR vs. PNK): Scumslips exist.
« Reply #24 on: May 31, 2014, 02:44:20 pm »

I have been meaning to compile every instance in which somone was accused of a "scumslip".  I have a strong suspicion that it will favor on the side of those making said slips being town. Obviously that will be expected given that the majority of players in a game are town.

But the real question that should be asked is, "what is a scumslip" because the connotation typically used is that somehow mafia will unconsciously slip in a typo that will out them as scum. I reject that Freudian notion.

What is real is that mafia will approach a situation and will have an overall attitude that only scum would take. But that can't be discovered in a single post or in a single mistake. That takes analyzing the whole body of text that said person has presented over time. That is called scum hunting.

Scumslip hunting is an attempt to take a shortcut and use an isolated post as enough evidence to override the whole body of work that is required for scum hunting. It will rarely work out to be nearly as solid as people make them out to be. Examples of this are: simple typos, setup speculation, knowing too much about setups, <tag> errors and on and on.

Scum makes mistakes. But never would I classify them as "slips" in the current connotation. Because those "slips" are made just as often by town--if not more--whereas true scumhunting philosophies are things that town should not be doing just as often.
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