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mail-mi, for the subject

1 (7.1%)

Faust, against the subject

13 (92.9%)

Total Members Voted: 14

Voting closed: May 31, 2014, 03:38:01 am

[eHalcyon]

Scumslips exist, it's just that true slips are rare.  CF's slip is a classic one.  Hunting for slips is not productive because they are so rare.

[Voltaire]

What yuma said.

[ashersky]

What eHal said.

[Archetype]

What ashersky said.

[ashersky]

I would note that I've scumslipped on purpose as scum, in Mean Girls.

[sudgy]

Scumslips exist, it's just that true slips are rare.  CF's slip is a classic one.  Hunting for slips is not productive because they are so rare.

CF's slip I think wasn't an actual scumslip (he may have said otherwise, if so, please tell me).  Once you start writing something like that, especially using negatives and such, you can easily write the wrong thing by accident and not realize it.

[yuma]

That CF made a "scumslip"? Or that they are rare?

I agree that they are rare, and thus rarely worth basing a vote on, let alone a wagon or a lynch. But I disagree that CF's was a scumslip. It was a typo. Not a scumslip. Unless you hold true to the fact that him being scum directly caused him to mistype. I don't hold to that. I don't believe in Freudian psychoanalysis that dictates that the unconscious can cause use to do something by mistake that reveals our true intentions or mindset. I think he typed fast and made a mistake in the same way I often mistype doc for cop or vice versa.

PPE:

You can't scumslip on purpose... At least not in how we are trying to define the term scumslip, which I see more as a mistake. If you are saying you did it on purpose then it isn't a slip, but instead a tactical decision.

I believe have made "one" true scumslip. In the Mafia QT for Masons and Monks I stated that I often like to bus my partners while at the same time I was currently in Deep Space Nine where I had just finished bussing my partner Glooble. I don't know if Jimmm--the mod, and in DS9--caught onto it or not. But I was shocked that I could forget about one game in the midst of writing about another...

[Ozle]

In summary of superhugemegapost:

Scum slips exist
But people claim slips are also scum slips this minimising the potential.

If I could be arsed there's an easy Venn diagram for this

[ashersky]

That one game when I used < > instead of [ ], was a true scumslip.  Wasn't on purpose, I was scum, had daychat and was switching back and forth.

[yuma]

That one game when I used < > instead of [ ], was a true scumslip.  Wasn't on purpose, I was scum, had daychat and was switching back and forth.

Again. Not a scumslip I think. Just an accident. Unless that was the only QT you were in (the game was Chocolate Factory yes, so I would argue that you had been in a lot of QTs at that point and thus your brain had combined the two tags. Again as a comparison I have used the [ ] tags in QTs thus showing that such a mistake is possible w/o any alignment whatsoever.

[ashersky]

That one game when I used < > instead of [ ], was a true scumslip.  Wasn't on purpose, I was scum, had daychat and was switching back and forth.

Again. Not a scumslip I think. Just an accident. Unless that was the only QT you were in (the game was Chocolate Factory yes, so I would argue that you had been in a lot of QTs at that point and thus your brain had combined the two tags. Again as a comparison I have used the [ ] tags in QTs thus showing that such a mistake is possible w/o any alignment whatsoever.

I disagree.

Yes, the mistake can be made as town! and it's just an error.

In that case, I made the error precisely because I was scum and day chatting.  I had an immediate moment of "oh shit!" and that terrible feeling of making a mistake in the pit of my stomach.

That was a scumslip.

[yuma]

Well I will take your word for it on that, you obviously know the situation better than me! But I wouldn't push a lynch on you, or anyone else, for that because w/o knowledge of what you were doing/feeling I couldn't separate whether or not it was legitimate or whether or not it was a mistake.

[EFHW]

Having made scumslips myself, I believe that they do exist.  Having been accused of making scumslips that weren't, I also think they are "seen" far more often than they happen.

[Twistedarcher]

That one game when I used < > instead of [ ], was a true scumslip.  Wasn't on purpose, I was scum, had daychat and was switching back and forth.

What about the game where I was town and used < > instead of [ ]? Doesn't the fact that I did this as town mean that it's not a scumslip, just a slip that anyone can make?

[eHalcyon]

That one game when I used < > instead of [ ], was a true scumslip.  Wasn't on purpose, I was scum, had daychat and was switching back and forth.

What about the game where I was town and used < > instead of [ ]? Doesn't the fact that I did this as town mean that it's not a scumslip, just a slip that anyone can make?

Just because town can do it by accident doesn't disqualify it as a scum slip.

[ashersky]

That one game when I used < > instead of [ ], was a true scumslip.  Wasn't on purpose, I was scum, had daychat and was switching back and forth.

What about the game where I was town and used < > instead of [ ]? Doesn't the fact that I did this as town mean that it's not a scumslip, just a slip that anyone can make?

Just because town can do it by accident doesn't disqualify it as a scum slip.

This.  Scum, and only scum, can commit a scumslip.  Town just makes mistakes.  The hard part is differentiating.  But the slips themselves absolutely exist.

[Twistedarcher]

Right. But if the definition of a scumslip is that it's a mistake that scum commits because of their alignment, doesn't the fact that a town member can, and has, committed the same mistake disprove that it's a slip caused by alignment? I don't get how you can say that it's a slip definitively caused by alignment when there's counter examples of that same slip happening by non-mafia members.

[ashersky]

Right. But if the definition of a scumslip is that it's a mistake that scum commits because of their alignment, doesn't the fact that a town member can, and has, committed the same mistake disprove that it's a slip caused by alignment? I don't get how you can say that it's a slip definitively caused by alignment when there's counter examples of that same slip happening by non-mafia members.

You are making a circular argument.  The fact that oranges are fruit doesn't disprove that apples are fruit.

You've seen multiple players admit to making slips due to alignment.  Are we all liars?

[Axxle]

If it's impossible to differentiate a scum tell from a townie mistake how are they different?

[ashersky]

If it's impossible to differentiate a scum tell from a townie mistake how are they different?

Not impossible, just sometimes difficult.

We don't lynch nearly enough for scum slips in my opinion.  If they are town mistakes, townies will learn to be better.  It's like LALL.  Used to work, but we've fallen off.

[yuma]

If it's impossible to differentiate a scum tell from a townie mistake how are they different?

Not impossible, just sometimes difficult.

We don't lynch nearly enough for scum slips in my opinion.  If they are town mistakes, townies will learn to be better.  It's like LALL.  Used to work, but we've fallen off.

You want town to be extremely paranoid and reread and rewrite every post to make sure their aren't mistakes? That would have a terrible chilling effect that would be awful for town.

Town should never lynch solely based off a perceived scumslip. It can be part of a case. But for me it adds about 1%--different situations will change that %--of an overall read on a player.

And to compare it to LALL is just silly. LALL has been statistically proven shown to be more likely to hit scum than town (saying shown because I don't think we have a large enough sample size to fully analyze... rather in going back to see if we had LALL day1 every game we would have had better chances of hitting scum then what actually happened). Lynching based off scumslips has not had a statistical analysis yet, but I would bet that it would lean on the side of mislynching far more often.

[yuma]

That one game when I used < > instead of [ ], was a true scumslip.  Wasn't on purpose, I was scum, had daychat and was switching back and forth.

What about the game where I was town and used < > instead of [ ]? Doesn't the fact that I did this as town mean that it's not a scumslip, just a slip that anyone can make?

Just because town can do it by accident doesn't disqualify it as a scum slip.

This.  Scum, and only scum, can commit a scumslip.  Town just makes mistakes.  The hard part is differentiating.  But the slips themselves absolutely exist.

I agree to an extent. Except that I think many slips made by scum were actually just mistakes made by scum, and not caused by their alignment. The CF example for instance was a mistake, not a slip. Your <> mistake was a true slip I believe.

[Twistedarcher]

I agree with Yuma, I am not trying to argue that scumslips don't exist, they obviously to. But I think I've seen in the past that every mistake made by scum is automatically qualified as a scumslip, because it's a mistake made by scum, which is the definition of scumslip...but I don't think that this is always the case.

Right. But if the definition of a scumslip is that it's a mistake that scum commits because of their alignment, doesn't the fact that a town member can, and has, committed the same mistake disprove that it's a slip caused by alignment? I don't get how you can say that it's a slip definitively caused by alignment when there's counter examples of that same slip happening by non-mafia members.

You are making a circular argument.  The fact that oranges are fruit doesn't disprove that apples are fruit.

You've seen multiple players admit to making slips due to alignment.  Are we all liars?

What I'm trying to say here is that how can a town member and a scum member make the exact same mistake (town/scum for example), but when scum makes it it's automatically a scumslip rather than a mistake? Is it just a disagreement on the definition, where any scum mistake is automatically considered a 'scumslip'?

[eHalcyon]

Well if you all admit that true scumslips really exist, then there is no debate... you agree with us.   The rest of it is outside the scope of the debate.

What I'm trying to say here is that how can a town member and a scum member make the exact same mistake (town/scum for example), but when scum makes it it's automatically a scumslip rather than a mistake? Is it just a disagreement on the definition, where any scum mistake is automatically considered a 'scumslip'?

The mistakes aren't exactly the same.  They appear the same, but the background behind them are different. 

If scum makes a mistake, it's not automatically a scumslip... but man, it certainly could be. 

[Voltaire]

That one game when I used < > instead of [ ], was a true scumslip.  Wasn't on purpose, I was scum, had daychat and was switching back and forth.

What about the game where I was town and used < > instead of [ ]? Doesn't the fact that I did this as town mean that it's not a scumslip, just a slip that anyone can make?

Just because town can do it by accident doesn't disqualify it as a scum slip.

This.  Scum, and only scum, can commit a scumslip.  Town just makes mistakes.  The hard part is differentiating.  But the slips themselves absolutely exist.

Then it is a technically correct, practically useless term.