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Author Topic: Does Lantern override Enchantress?  (Read 26525 times)

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crj

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Re: Does Lantern override Enchantress?
« Reply #100 on: March 22, 2020, 09:57:45 pm »
0

... Governor?
No. Governor doesn't actually apply the same number to both the current and other players. So you could, at least in theory, achieve a Chameleon-like effect by editing the card text. I was trying to illustrate a circumstance in which it would be essential to leave the card as-is but modify how its instructions are followed.
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hhelibebcnofnena

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Re: Does Lantern override Enchantress?
« Reply #101 on: March 22, 2020, 10:15:40 pm »
0

... Governor?
No. Governor doesn't actually apply the same number to both the current and other players. So you could, at least in theory, achieve a Chameleon-like effect by editing the card text. I was trying to illustrate a circumstance in which it would be essential to leave the card as-is but modify how its instructions are followed.

Ah. I understand now.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Does Lantern override Enchantress?
« Reply #102 on: March 22, 2020, 10:39:56 pm »
0

... Governor?
No. Governor doesn't actually apply the same number to both the current and other players. So you could, at least in theory, achieve a Chameleon-like effect by editing the card text. I was trying to illustrate a circumstance in which it would be essential to leave the card as-is but modify how its instructions are followed.

Ah I see the difference. This actually makes a lot of sense, and basically confirms what Jeebus said in his last post... Chameleon doesn't modify instructions; it just sets a new rule for what you personally do while following certain instructions.
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Jeebus

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Re: Does Lantern override Enchantress?
« Reply #103 on: March 24, 2020, 04:06:42 pm »
+1

I'm going to try to write some sort of summary of this very complex topic that I've spent too much time on. Now we have information telling us how the different interactions work (mostly).

After all the comments in this thread, I've modified my views somewhat, and also Lantern probably has one of the most vague card texts in Dominion, so it's natural that we might read it in different ways.

I still think it would be most intuitive if Lantern and Way of the Chameleon worked the same. We know that Lantern doesn't change (shapeshift) Border Guard, so that means it has to trigger when we play Border Guard, somehow modifying what we do. The only other cards that do this are Enchantress and all the Ways.

Enchantress and Ways trigger when you would resolve the play ability, and replace it. It's important to note that if one of them has replaced the play ability already, the other one fails. (This is what Ingix assumed early in the thread, but Donald didn't confirm it until later.) In other words, you can't ever "override" Enchantress with a Way or vice versa, you just choose which to apply first, and the other does nothing.

If Lantern worked the same way, it would do essentially the same as Chameleon: Right before we would resolve the play ability, it's replaced with a version of itself. Then the question becomes, (1) is it replaced with a modified version right now, or (2) is it replaced with an identical version and the modification effects are set up to trigger on the fly? In the first case it would seem that Enchantress should fail. In the second case it's less clear, but it would seem Enchantress should succeed (in which case Chameleon would be an exception to the rulebook statement that Ways can cancel the Enchantment).

The first option is what I've been arguing for mostly, because then all the cards would have the exact same timing. But then I realized that the card text on Chameleon seemed to suggest the second option. The two options also matter for the -$1 token and -1 Card token, which trigger on when-would just like the modification effects would do in the second option.



But it turns out that Chameleon follows the first option: All the modifications are done before you start resolving, with the same timing as Enchantress. Enchantress fails because the ability is replaced, and this is the case even if the ability can't be modified by Chameleon (because of lack of +Cards/+$). And the tokens apply after Chameleon has done all the modifications.

When it comes to Lantern, the ruling is that it works differently. It works as in the second option above, except it doesn't even do an initial replacement. When we play Border Guard and get to revealing cards, Lantern triggers and changes the number of cards, and when we get to discarding cards, Lanten triggers again, etc. This is what Hhelibebcnofnena said in the beginning (except that you can't choose to apply Lantern's modifications before a Way).



There is the question of Chameleon with another Way, like Way of the Sheep, if you apply Sheep first. I would assume that Ways work like Enchantress: As long as the ability is replaced, Chameleon can't replace it.

There is also the question of Lantern with a Way like Way of the Mole. This is different, since Lantern doesn't replace the ability. It could be seen as, Lantern still triggers after you have applied Mole, because it's still a Border Guard, and it's telling you to discard cards. But based on Donald's ruling, it seems that this is not the case: Even though we have a new discard effect, we're ignoring Border Guard's ability, so Lantern should never trigger.

Thirdly, there is the question of Lantern with Chameleon. Chameleon replaces the ability on Border Guard without making any modifications. This one is less clear, but I assume that Lantern is also like Enchantress in that it only works on the unreplaced ability of a card (in this case Border Guard). Lantern doesn't do anything with the whole ability (unlike Enchantress or Ways), but it does do something with specific effects in Border Guard's ability. This would mean that you can use Chameleon to play Border Guards "as-is" (to reveal less cards).



A way to view the card texts is then:

Chameleon: "Instead of following this card's instructions: Follow this card's instructions with the exception that effects that give you +Cards this turn give you +$ instead, and vice versa."

Lantern: "When you would resolve Border Guard's effect of revealing 2 cards, instead reveal 3. When you would resolve Border Guard's effect of discarding 1 card, instead discard 2."
« Last Edit: March 24, 2020, 04:18:16 pm by Jeebus »
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scolapasta

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Re: Does Lantern override Enchantress?
« Reply #104 on: March 24, 2020, 06:03:38 pm »
+1

This wording:

A way to view the card texts is then:

Lantern: "When you would resolve Border Guard's effect of revealing 2 cards, instead reveal 3. When you would resolve Border Guard's effect of discarding 1 card, instead discard 2."

makes me think of this phrasing for Border Guard that mxdata had several pages back:

Border Guard/Lantern is kind of like that.  Border Guard does one thing if you have the Lantern and another thing if you don't.  It would lead to a much wordier card, though, if you tried to put it all in BG's text, something like "+1 Action Reveal the top 2 cards of your deck (3 if you have the Lantern). Put one into your hand and discard the other(s). If both/all were Actions, take the Lantern or Horn", so for practical purposes, there's instead text on Lantern that tells you how it affects Border Guard

If this hypothetical text had been how Border Guard was released, then we'd have no debate at all.  It would be obvious that Lantern wouldn't override Enchantress

I think all of the rulings are consistent if BG's text had been this, so it might be a good way to think about it.

Of course, if this had been BG's actual text, then there would be no text at all on Lantern. :)
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