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Author Topic: Way of the Chameleon timing (Enchantress, -$1 token, -1 Card token)  (Read 3127 times)

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Jeebus

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I've asked Donald whether Chameleon can override Enchantress like other Ways. (Yes, the rulebook doesn't say otherwise.)

We've had a long thread (about Lantern, Enchantress and Chameleon), and there are two ways of reading Chameleon. In both cases Chameleon triggers right when you're about to follow the instructions/ability on the played card.
1) Chameleon replaces the ability with itself (identical ability) and sets up future effects to happen whenever you get to resolving +$ and +Cards.
2) Chameleon replaces the ability with a modified version where all the +$ and +Cards that you would get this turn are already changed.

Chameleon seems to read like the first interpretation. That means you're set to follow the card's instructions when Enchantress tries to replace them, so that would seem to mean that Enchantress succeeds. But maybe the ruling could still be that Chameleon wins, maybe because Enchantress somehow "loses track" of an ability that has been removed and put back?

But, there's another interaction where it absolutely matters which timing Chameleon has: your -$1 token.
If it's the second interpretation, Militia gets changed to +2 Cards and you keep your -$1 token. If it's the first interpretation, Milita is still +$2, but when you would get those $2, you can choose which to resolve first: your -$1 token, or Chameleon's effect of giving you +Cards instead of +$. So you can either lose your token and get +1 Card, or keep your token and get +2 Cards.

Edit: GendoIkari has noted that it also applies to your -1 Card token.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2020, 12:33:28 pm by Jeebus »
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hhelibebcnofnena

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Re: Way of the Chameleon timing (Enchantress, -$1 token)
« Reply #1 on: March 23, 2020, 11:27:54 am »
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Are they both "when you would get +"?
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Ingix

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Re: Way of the Chameleon timing (Enchantress, -$1 token)
« Reply #2 on: March 23, 2020, 11:38:20 am »
+2

FWIW, the online implementation works as your option 2): Way of the Chameleon first changes the effect, then applies the appropriate penalty token -1 card or -$1.

So if you have the -$1 token and play Militia using Way of the Chameleon, you get +2 Cards, but keep the -$1 token.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Way of the Chameleon timing (Enchantress, -$1 token)
« Reply #3 on: March 23, 2020, 12:03:47 pm »
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I think it's the first interpretation; but there's still a possible logical reason that Enchantress doesn't do anything. I said it at some point in the long thread; but it was buried in the middle:

When Enchantress says "the first time each other player plays an Action card [...] instead of following its instructions"; it is specifically limited in scope to the following of instructions that a player does as a direct result of playing the card. The "following instructions" that the base game rulebook tells you to do as part of how you play a card. Any other following instructions that you do, such as the following instructions you do because Way of the Chameleon told you to, are not included in that scope. That's not part of the following its instructions that was a result of playing an Action card for the first time that turn.
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Jeebus

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Re: Way of the Chameleon timing (Enchantress, -$1 token)
« Reply #4 on: March 23, 2020, 12:12:18 pm »
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Are they both "when you would get +"?

Yes, the -$1 token is when-would. In option 1, Chameleon is also when-would.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2020, 12:15:23 pm by Jeebus »
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GendoIkari

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Re: Way of the Chameleon timing (Enchantress, -$1 token)
« Reply #5 on: March 23, 2020, 12:14:18 pm »
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As for whether this leads to the choice you mention with Chameleon'd Militia... I'm not sure. I notice that the rules for the - token do not use the "when you would get " wording.. the rules say "It causes the player to get less the next time they get ". So it seems to only apply when you actually do get , not just when you "would get" . I don't know for sure if that matters... but it might; it could be that the token only triggers as you are actually getting ; while Chameleon triggers first, when you "would" get .

*Edit* Never mind; the PPE with Donald's ruling completely makes it clear.

*Edit2* Although; that ruling was to deal with the weird situation where you have multiple - card tokens; which thankfully is no longer possible. So it's possible that he could update that ruling as well, especially in the light of Chameleon.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2020, 12:17:26 pm by GendoIkari »
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Jeebus

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Re: Way of the Chameleon timing (Enchantress, -$1 token)
« Reply #6 on: March 23, 2020, 12:16:08 pm »
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I think it's the first interpretation; but there's still a possible logical reason that Enchantress doesn't do anything. I said it at some point in the long thread; but it was buried in the middle:

When Enchantress says "the first time each other player plays an Action card [...] instead of following its instructions"; it is specifically limited in scope to the following of instructions that a player does as a direct result of playing the card. The "following instructions" that the base game rulebook tells you to do as part of how you play a card. Any other following instructions that you do, such as the following instructions you do because Way of the Chameleon told you to, are not included in that scope. That's not part of the following its instructions that was a result of playing an Action card for the first time that turn.

Right, I think it's a different way of phrasing what I said, that Enchantress "loses track" of the instructions (or rather what I said is a different way of phrasing what you said, since you said it first).
« Last Edit: March 23, 2020, 12:17:44 pm by Jeebus »
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Jeebus

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Re: Way of the Chameleon timing (Enchantress, -$1 token)
« Reply #7 on: March 23, 2020, 12:20:01 pm »
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*Edit2* Although; that ruling was to deal with the weird situation where you have multiple - card tokens; which thankfully is no longer possible. So it's possible that he could update that ruling as well, especially in the light of Chameleon.

Possibly, but he already stuck to it once. I keep hoping that these rulings will be in as little flux as possible.

GendoIkari

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Re: Way of the Chameleon timing (Enchantress, -$1 token)
« Reply #8 on: March 23, 2020, 12:23:54 pm »
+1

I think a ruling that Chameleon'd Militia gives a choice between +2 cards, or +1 card and lose your token sounds fine. I don't think it's immediately intuitive to a casual player, but it follows logically if give some thought. And it doesn't sound like it would break anything else.

Of course, the same would apply to playing Moat while you have your -1 card token right? Or you could have both your - and -1 card token, and get rid of them both with a play of Militia or Moat.
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Wizard_Amul

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Re: Way of the Chameleon timing (Enchantress, -$1 token)
« Reply #9 on: March 23, 2020, 01:56:06 pm »
+3

I think a ruling that Chameleon'd Militia gives a choice between +2 cards, or +1 card and lose your token sounds fine. I don't think it's immediately intuitive to a casual player, but it follows logically if give some thought. And it doesn't sound like it would break anything else.

Of course, the same would apply to playing Moat while you have your -1 card token right? Or you could have both your - and -1 card token, and get rid of them both with a play of Militia or Moat.
Without reading every post in this thread very closely, I agree that this makes sense to me and does follow logically. At least, it seems consistent with the way that resolving multiple things at the same time works. You have two "when would" triggers (the -1 coin token and the Way of the Chameleon), and you get to pick the order in which they resolve. After playing militia with the -1 coin token, you can resolve the -1 coin token first and then change the +1 coin you would now get into +1 card. You can choose to resolve the Way of the Chameleon first and get +2 cards; since there is no more getting coins in the "when would" phase now, you have to keep the -1 coin token. Getting rid of both -1 coin and -1 card tokens makes sense the same way, but now you have 3 triggers; after playing militia, you resolve the "when would" -1 coin token first to get +1 coin only, next resolve the Way of the Chameleon to get +1 card, and lastly resolve the "when would" -1 card token to lose the card token and not draw anything.
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Donald X.

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Re: Way of the Chameleon timing (Enchantress, -$1 token, -1 Card token)
« Reply #10 on: March 23, 2020, 02:31:22 pm »
+3

The tokens apply to whatever you end up with after applying Way of the Chameleon.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Way of the Chameleon timing (Enchantress, -$1 token, -1 Card token)
« Reply #11 on: March 23, 2020, 02:32:46 pm »
+1

The tokens apply to whatever you end up with after applying Way of the Chameleon.

I agree that this is the most intuitive result that the average reader would think should happen; but how is it consistent with your previous rule that tokens are a "when you would" timing?
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Jeebus

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Re: Way of the Chameleon timing (Enchantress, -$1 token, -1 Card token)
« Reply #12 on: March 23, 2020, 03:29:08 pm »
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The tokens apply to whatever you end up with after applying Way of the Chameleon.

I agree that this is the most intuitive result that the average reader would think should happen; but how is it consistent with your previous rule that tokens are a "when you would" timing?

Well, I guess it just has to mean that Donald is thinking interpretation 2, even though the card seems to read otherwise. At least then it follows clearly that Chameleon overrides Enchantress.

So maybe something like:
"Instead of following this card's instructions: Follow this card's instructions with the exception that effects that give you +Cards this turn give you +$ instead, and vice versa."
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