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176

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Duration cards with wholly delayed effects

« on: September 08, 2016, 02:46:26 pm »

What if we simply had a delayed cantrip?

Delayed Cantrip - $2 Action/Duration
At the beginning of your next turn, +1 Card, +1 Action.

Obviously this is extremely weak.  But is it so weak that you would prefer not to have it at all?  Or are there situations where you'd want it if you can get it for free?

If you want that extra Action the card provides you play with many Action cards. If you play with many Action cards it hurts that the Delayed Cantrip is dead this turn. So the only useful thing it does for you is providing one card. But instead of getting it immediately you get it next turn.
So most of the times it is worse than a cantrip. AdrianHealey is right that it does transfer resources if you play with only one or two copies. But if you play with several it is worse than a normal cantrip as stuff is simply delayed.

Take Market Square and hyperdelayed Market Square. If I just need the buys I want some normal Market Squares. If I want some Minitacticians hyperdelayed Market Square is OK-ish. But if I want these Minitacticians to hit every turn I fool myself as I need the extra Action and extra Card just to play another hyperdelayed Market Square so I would be better off with the normal Market Square that hits earlier and doesn't miss reshuffles.

177

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Duration cards with wholly delayed effects

« on: September 08, 2016, 02:38:53 pm »

No it's not. You can't just say that. Didn't you read what LFN posted?

I did. You seemingly didn't.
He made good point about terminal draw being potentially good when delayed which is why I explicitly said non-terminals.

178

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Duration cards with wholly delayed effects

« on: September 08, 2016, 02:35:32 pm »

You play a dingy. You have 4 cards. Next turn: you have 6 cards, 2 actions and 2buys. That's pretty good. That's like, like Theta says, playing a lost village *and* a market square. And you get both of those effects... by playing one card in the previous turn. Not as good as tactician, but pretty good for a $3, I'd say.

Man, Enchantress kicks ass. It is a Double Lab next turn! For a mere 3! And with an attack on top! Totally overpowered!

Ignoring that a card is dead and just focusing on the duration effect leads you to totally misjudging any Duration card. Swamp Hag is a triple Peddler. Wharf is a Double Lab with a Market Square on top! Fishing Village is a Bazaar! Lighthouse is a Peddler!

179

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Duration cards with wholly delayed effects

« on: September 08, 2016, 02:30:07 pm »

Okay, I'm a little confused on what you are trying to prove. I think we can both agree that this isn't strictly worse, but it could be worse. And yes, at the start of your next turn: 1 Card, +2 Actions is probably better than village.

By your weird logic Fishing Village would be better than Bazaar as it is a Bazaar next turn and something now. Obviously this is preposterous.
By your logic Swamp Hag would be WORSE if it provided the 3 coins right now because IT IS A TRIPLE PEDDLER NEXT TURN !!!.

This is not a matter of opinion. A delayed effect is simply worse than the immediate effect. I want my stuff now, not next year when I am dead or next turn when the game might be already over.

Hmm, my logic could be wrong. Whether or not it was, (which it could easily be), the conclusion was right. This is probably a fine card for 3, if on the weaker side. I suggest you re-read the whole thread.

Lab is better than Caravan and Caravan is better than a card which says "At the start of your next turn: +2 Cards +1 Action. That's not my opinion but hyperobvious and reflected by the cost of Caravan and Lab.
Same with Market Square and Dingy. The former beats the latter in every respect (no delay, plus the Reaction).

Of course there are rare circumstances in which you might prefer delaying. Suppose there is an Action card which provides 4 coins. Obviously it is better than Merchant Ship but in a particular situation in which you have 6 Coins and no extra buy you would prefer playing a Merchant Ship over the hypothetical "+4 Coins".
The cases in which this happens are trivial compared to the number of cases in which the immediate 4 Coins are far better. Oh, and obviously such a card would probably be balanced around 6$.

Wait, a lab next turn is 'obviously' better than a terminal now-lab+lost village next turn? I don't think that's so obviously true.

Dingy is a terminal-next turn lab+market square. This is, again, not obviously that much worse than a market square now. In games with sufficient actions but no trashing, I might prefer dingy to make sure my engine can go off again next turn.

You are aware that Dingy is *not* a delayed market square, right? A delayed market square would be: 'at the start of your next turn: +1 Buy'. That's a delayed market square.

Yeah, it is dead card now and a Market Square sans reaction next turn, making it worse in every way than a Market Square
Surely I don't have to explain to an economist that you gotta discount the future, especially in a game which runs around 15-30 turns, do I?

IT"S NOT A MARKET SQUARE NEXT TURN, IT'S A LOST CITY + MARKET SQUARE

sorry for the caps, just trying to make a point.

Yep and it is a dead card this turn.
Anything non-terminal that is dead this turn and does the stuff which card XYZ does on turn 1 instead on turn 2 is worse than card XYZ.

By your weird logic Fishing Village is better than Bazaar. It is a Bazaar next turn which makes it in your opinion better than Bazaar but instead of being a deed card it even does something this turn. Hell, Fishing Village should cost 6!

180

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Duration cards with wholly delayed effects

« on: September 08, 2016, 02:26:40 pm »

Okay, I'm a little confused on what you are trying to prove. I think we can both agree that this isn't strictly worse, but it could be worse. And yes, at the start of your next turn: 1 Card, +2 Actions is probably better than village.

By your weird logic Fishing Village would be better than Bazaar as it is a Bazaar next turn and something now. Obviously this is preposterous.
By your logic Swamp Hag would be WORSE if it provided the 3 coins right now because IT IS A TRIPLE PEDDLER NEXT TURN !!!.

This is not a matter of opinion. A delayed effect is simply worse than the immediate effect. I want my stuff now, not next year when I am dead or next turn when the game might be already over.

Hmm, my logic could be wrong. Whether or not it was, (which it could easily be), the conclusion was right. This is probably a fine card for 3, if on the weaker side. I suggest you re-read the whole thread.

Lab is better than Caravan and Caravan is better than a card which says "At the start of your next turn: +2 Cards +1 Action. That's not my opinion but hyperobvious and reflected by the cost of Caravan and Lab.
Same with Market Square and Dingy. The former beats the latter in every respect (no delay, plus the Reaction).

Of course there are rare circumstances in which you might prefer delaying. Suppose there is an Action card which provides 4 coins. Obviously it is better than Merchant Ship but in a particular situation in which you have 6 Coins and no extra buy you would prefer playing a Merchant Ship over the hypothetical "+4 Coins".
The cases in which this happens are trivial compared to the number of cases in which the immediate 4 Coins are far better. Oh, and obviously such a card would probably be balanced around 6$.

Wait, a lab next turn is 'obviously' better than a terminal now-lab+lost village next turn? I don't think that's so obviously true.

Dingy is a terminal-next turn lab+market square. This is, again, not obviously that much worse than a market square now. In games with sufficient actions but no trashing, I might prefer dingy to make sure my engine can go off again next turn.

You are aware that Dingy is *not* a delayed market square, right? A delayed market square would be: 'at the start of your next turn: +1 Buy'. That's a delayed market square.

Yeah, it is dead card now and a Market Square sans reaction next turn, making it worse in every way than a Market Square.

That extra Action and Card which the hyperdelayed Market Square provides are not a supervaluable asset that it makes it stronger than a normal Market Square. It is the very stuff which a normal Market Square would provide in the FIRST instead of just the second turn.

Surely I don't have to explain to an economist that you gotta discount the future, especially in a game which runs around 15-30 turns.

181

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Taking Debt as part of an Action

« on: September 08, 2016, 02:18:45 pm »

Thanks for the links, I also found your Armada.
Maybe the best comparison card is Envoy? Investment can be thought of an Envoy that lets you discard a Gold.

Yeah, a little bit proud that I did stuff that is now an obvious fan card design path (although there are slight mechanical differences and as usual novel ideas were not accepted by the rule lawyer fraction on this board ).
Envoy is also a good comparison. When I first got it thought it was crazy and far stronger than Smithy until playing experience showed its downsides. Similar with Armada/Investment. I also feared that it is too strong but it turned out to be perfectly fine for 4.

182

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Duration cards with wholly delayed effects

« on: September 08, 2016, 02:13:28 pm »

Okay, I'm a little confused on what you are trying to prove. I think we can both agree that this isn't strictly worse, but it could be worse. And yes, at the start of your next turn: 1 Card, +2 Actions is probably better than village.

By your weird logic Fishing Village would be better than Bazaar as it is a Bazaar next turn and something now. Obviously this is preposterous.
By your logic Swamp Hag would be WORSE if it provided the 3 coins right now because IT IS A TRIPLE PEDDLER NEXT TURN !!!.

This is not a matter of opinion. A delayed effect is simply worse than the immediate effect. I want my stuff now, not next year when I am dead or next turn when the game might be already over.

Hmm, my logic could be wrong. Whether or not it was, (which it could easily be), the conclusion was right. This is probably a fine card for 3, if on the weaker side. I suggest you re-read the whole thread.

Lab is better than Caravan and Caravan is better than a card which says "At the start of your next turn: +2 Cards +1 Action. That's not my opinion but hyperobvious and reflected by the cost of Caravan and Lab.
Same with Market Square and Dingy. The former beats the latter in every respect (no delay, plus the Reaction).

Of course there are rare circumstances in which you might prefer delaying. Suppose there is an Action card which provides 4 coins. Obviously it is better than Merchant Ship but in a particular situation in which you have 6 Coins and no extra buy you would prefer playing a Merchant Ship over the hypothetical "+4 Coins".
The cases in which this happens are trivial compared to the number of cases in which the immediate 4 Coins are far better. Oh, and obviously such a card would probably be balanced around 6$.

183

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Duration cards with wholly delayed effects

« on: September 08, 2016, 09:42:30 am »

Okay, I'm a little confused on what you are trying to prove. I think we can both agree that this isn't strictly worse, but it could be worse. And yes, at the start of your next turn: 1 Card, +2 Actions is probably better than village.

By your weird logic Fishing Village would be better than Bazaar as it is a Bazaar next turn and something now. Obviously this is preposterous.
By your logic Swamp Hag would be WORSE if it provided the 3 coins right now because IT IS A TRIPLE PEDDLER NEXT TURN !!!.

This is not a matter of opinion. A delayed effect is simply worse than the immediate effect. I want my stuff now, not next year when I am dead or next turn when the game might be already over.

184

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Duration cards with wholly delayed effects

« on: September 08, 2016, 09:31:43 am »

I think I might be winning the Necro Wars:

This has to cost 2 as it is strictly weaker than Market Square.

No it's not. Next turn it's a super-lost-city. Remember that duration effects on your next turn have a +1 Card +1 Action built in. That's why caravan is considered a lab variant.

Yes it is. Anything now is better than anything latter.
This why a delayed Lab like Caravan costs 4 instead of 5 and why a delayed Peddler (with a bonus!) like Caravan Guard costs 3 instead of 4.

By your logic "At the start of your next turn: +2 Cards" is superstrong as it is a Double Lab next turn, ignoring that now it is a dead card and worse than Moat sans reaction.
Your card is a delayed Market Square sans reaction so it is worse in every aspect. Now if it provided something on the current turn it would be a different thing.

No, next turn it's a Lost City AND a Market Square.

You are right, a delayed Market Square would be +1 Card, +1 Action and the +1 Buy in the next turn.
Your card is even worse than that as it doesn't just postpone the extra buy but even the cantrip; in the current turn it is dead and you have a much harder time playing Dinghies consistenly than with Market Square.

By your logic At the start of your next turn: +1 Card, +2 Actions would be far better than Village as it is TWO VILLAGES AND A LAB !!!! next turn, again ignoring that it is a dead card in the current turn.

If by now you still don't see that anything latter is strictly worse than anything now I cannot help you.

185

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Duration cards with wholly delayed effects

« on: September 08, 2016, 09:23:29 am »

I think I might be winning the Necro Wars:

This has to cost 2 as it is strictly weaker than Market Square.

No it's not. Next turn it's a super-lost-city. Remember that duration effects on your next turn have a +1 Card +1 Action built in. That's why caravan is considered a lab variant.

Yes it is. Anything now is better than anything latter.
This why a delayed Lab like Caravan costs 4 instead of 5 and why a delayed Peddler (with a bonus!) like Caravan Guard costs 3 instead of 4.

By your logic "At the start of your next turn: +2 Cards" is superstrong as it is a Double Lab next turn, ignoring that now it is a dead card and worse than Moat sans reaction.
Your card is a delayed Market Square sans reaction so it is worse in every aspect. Now if it provided something on the current turn it would be a different thing.

186

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Duration cards with wholly delayed effects

« on: September 08, 2016, 09:05:35 am »

I think I might be winning the Necro Wars:

This has to cost 2 as it is strictly weaker than Market Square.

187

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Aleimon Thimble's top 30 favorite cards

« on: September 08, 2016, 09:03:59 am »

7. Miser

Before I get to Miser, let me tell you something about Pirate Ship. When I spent countless hours browsing the Wiki, I slowly but surely learned about all the cards that existed. Pirate Ship was the final card I learned about. I had seen it a couple of times already, but I was always like ‘wall of text, people say it’s weak, never mind already’. Of course, in the end I learned what its gimmick was all about. I thought it was pretty cool, if a bit convoluted and weak in the same way Thief is. Well what do you know, Miser has a similar gimmick but it actually helps yourself instead of your opponent. Not a power card, but definitely one of the cooler ones. Yay Miser!

Ehm, you never played with these cards? OK. ^^

About Miser, I think it is wrose than Pirate Ship. Not in terms of strength, it is probably better on average, and not in terms of being too different (both are slow build-up cards) but in terms of creating interaction and shaping the game. The very presence of Pirate Ship significantly influences the game and makes these Kingdoms often fun to play.

That's rather presumptuous of you, to assume I've never played with Miser or Pirate Ship just because I have a different opinion than you.

Presuming? You said yourself that you read about the card on the Wiki. ^^
Nice that you clarified your background though and that your opinion concerning pirate ship is informed by play and not by reading alone.

You can do all the theory you want based on effect but you will lose a lot of games without experience using a card if you try to build your deck around it - and that is even assuming that building your deck around that card is the right thing to do.

I never sad that Pirate Ship is a good card (you are the one with the extreme opinion that Pirate Ship is always bad without taking account that player count and Kingdom can very well make Pirate Ship a decent card) or that it should make you NOT buy Treasure at all.
What I said is that the presence of Pirate Ship always DISINCENTIVIZES you (of course not totally) from buying Treasure (just like the e.g. presence of a junker makes trashers even more valuable or just like the presence of Knights makes buying 2s a tiny bit better). Even if the guy who buy Pirate Ship loses he might trash some Silvers and Gold of yours.

188

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Coins -> VP tokens

« on: September 08, 2016, 08:49:31 am »

I believe this encounters the problem of not wanting you to end the game. If your spending all your money on VP, and then if your not buying anything to discard your delusions, then how will the game end?

The coin-VP ratio has to be low enough to make this sometimes worthwhile and high enough to prevent you from not greening at all.

So? It's still encourages you not to end the game. It even punishes you for buying cards and not using it's ability. Monument, plunder, and bishop all give you money. This takes away your money and makes it hard for you to end the game.

That's a feature and not a bug. As I already said, the ratio has to be low enough (and most like is low enough) such that you cannot rely on the VPs you get from Druid to win you the game. You'd have to produce 18 to get the VP equivalent of a Province. Even at the advantage of not having a dead card in your deck this seems inefficient enough not be a mono-strategy enabler.
It should rather be a support card, something that might get you some extra VPs (at an obvious high cost) but not something that makes you able to win the game without greening at all (or pursuing other ways to get at VPs).

189

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Taking Debt as part of an Action

« on: September 08, 2016, 08:42:17 am »

Embassy is better in bm than investment. But in a engine it isn't even close.

I never play an "engine" or "big money". I play decks with different Action and Treasure card densities. Sorry, but I just hate these terms as they ignore everything between those two extremes.
Embassy is also good in games with junking / no trashing. You can e.g. play with many Action cards but rely on that Embassy for terminal draw. As you haven't trashed you can discard Coppers and Estates with it even during the middlegame.

If i want to draw my deck investment is very good at this. If  I don't care about drawing five cards and would rather discard I like embassy. Engine likes investment. Other decks probably prefer Embassy.

If you think that Dominion is so one-dimensional on the "BM"-"engine" axis and that other game elements like junking or whatever don't matter that's your prerogative.

190

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Coins -> VP tokens

« on: September 08, 2016, 08:39:00 am »

I believe this encounters the problem of not wanting you to end the game. If your spending all your money on VP, and then if your not buying anything to discard your delusions, then how will the game end?

The coin-VP ratio has to be low enough to make this sometimes worthwhile and high enough to prevent you from not greening at all.

191

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Taking Debt as part of an Action

« on: September 07, 2016, 10:15:56 pm »

Embassy is better in bm than investment. But in a engine it isn't even close.

I never play an "engine" or "big money". I play decks with different Action and Treasure card densities. Sorry, but I just hate these terms as they ignore everything between those two extremes.
Embassy is also good in games with junking / no trashing. You can e.g. play with many Action cards but rely on that Embassy for terminal draw. As you haven't trashed you can discard Coppers and Estates with it even during the middlegame.

192

Variants and Fan Cards / Coins -> VP tokens

« on: September 07, 2016, 09:58:54 pm »

Druid - Action -

+1 Card
+1 Action
Play a Delusion from the Delusion pile.
----------------
While this is in play, during your Buy phase pay any amount of .
+1 per paid.


The idea is fairly straightforward, convert Coins into VP tokens (I obviously play too many resource conversion Euros). Such a card should obviously not stack (not sure whether this is achieved rule-wise with my Storyteller-ish pay formulation)
The coin-VP ratio has to be low enough to make this sometimes worthwhile and high enough to prevent you from not greening at all. 2:1 would be crazy but at 3:1 you really have to think whether you want that Gold or that 2VPs respectively whether you really forsake a Province and get 3VP tokens if you hit 9.
I have some doubts that the ratio is too low or that the card is too expensive but you gotta start conservative with such an idea and I didn't want to do something like 5:2 as it is not continuous enough for my taste.

The card uses weavile's Delusion to punish you if you play but don't use Druid's conversion and buy a card instead.

193

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Taking Debt as part of an Action

« on: September 07, 2016, 09:11:52 pm »

Discarding cards hurts on average more than taking a Debt.

Wouldn't this indicate that Investment is stronger than Embassy?

That was obvious nonsense which I wrote. Discarding hurts less as you can discard Victory cards and junk.

Well, depends how strong your deck is, how much junk you have and how many of them you want to play.

Sure. But on average (actually: most often) a massive terminal draw prefers discarding cards to taking debt.

I really like the idea of a strong engine piece that gives you debt.  In a standard engine, you try to draw your deck and then you stuff it with payoff, but now you need payoff just to keep your engine afloat.  In a way, Storyteller already fills this role, but there's obviously more design-space remaining.

There are already several fan cards which transform coins (to be more precise, potentially not yet existing coins via Debt) into cards. Investment/Armada as well as my Waterfall, a semi-permaduration debt->card converter, and Asper's Scientist which is to Waterfall as Lab is to Hireling.

194

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Aleimon Thimble's top 30 favorite cards

« on: September 07, 2016, 09:07:17 pm »

It is the other way around, Pirate Ship is nearly always (unless there are ample of cards that provide virtual coins) relevant,

This segment just isn't true.

Nope. You disavow that the mere presence of Pirate Ship often disincentivizes you from buying Treasure cards, independent of whether somebody will actually open with Pirate Ship or not. And if nobody opens with it there is still a little bit of a waiting game going on (more so admittedly in a 3P game).
This is the kind of indirect interacttion I want Dominion cards to provide. Miser is in comparison just bland; it is a card which could have been in the base set instead of Moneylender.

195

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Taking Debt as part of an Action

« on: September 07, 2016, 07:42:54 pm »

Discarding cards hurts on average more than taking a Debt.

Wouldn't this indicate that Investment is stronger than Embassy?

That was obvious nonsense which I wrote. Discarding hurts less as you can discard Victory cards and junk.

196

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Aleimon Thimble's top 30 favorite cards

« on: September 07, 2016, 07:13:54 pm »

The very few boards where Pirate Ship is relevant are decidedly not fun to play if both players realize it.

It is the other way around, Pirate Ship is nearly always (unless there are ample of cards that provide virtual coins) relevant, independent of whether somebody goes for it or not. With 3 players it is even more interesting than with 2.
Miser on the other hand is not interactive and thus a boring card. Now if Miser had come along before Pirate Ship, in the base game or Intrigue, it would have been fine. But as it is I view it as a fairly bland card.

197

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Taking Debt as part of an Action

« on: September 07, 2016, 07:10:55 pm »

I have the very same card as Investment and found it to be balanced at 4$.

Oh, that surprises me. I compared it to Embassy. Okay, you can discard dead cards to Embassy, but this one actually increases the handsize more than Hunting Grounds!

Discarding cards hurts on average more than taking a Debt. Cards like Embassy and Vault enable you to green fairly early whereas Investment does not.
OK, you probably don't wanna start with Embassy but Vault is fine in any 2/5 opening whereas Investment is something you don't want early.
Of course it is situationally brilliant (probably Colony games) but I played it with Smithy as direct comparison and Smithy was often the better choice.

198

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Aleimon Thimble's top 30 favorite cards

« on: September 07, 2016, 05:27:42 pm »

7. Miser

Before I get to Miser, let me tell you something about Pirate Ship. When I spent countless hours browsing the Wiki, I slowly but surely learned about all the cards that existed. Pirate Ship was the final card I learned about. I had seen it a couple of times already, but I was always like ‘wall of text, people say it’s weak, never mind already’. Of course, in the end I learned what its gimmick was all about. I thought it was pretty cool, if a bit convoluted and weak in the same way Thief is. Well what do you know, Miser has a similar gimmick but it actually helps yourself instead of your opponent. Not a power card, but definitely one of the cooler ones. Yay Miser!

Ehm, you never played with these cards? OK. ^^

About Miser, I think it is wrose than Pirate Ship. Not in terms of strength, it is probably better on average, and not in terms of being too different (both are slow build-up cards) but in terms of creating interaction and shaping the game. The very presence of Pirate Ship significantly influences the game and makes these Kingdoms often fun to play.

199

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Taking Debt as part of an Action

« on: September 07, 2016, 04:44:24 pm »

Trading Village seems fine.

I have the very same card as Investment and found it to be balanced at 4$.

Pawnshop looks like an interesting Remodel variant.
Remodel allows you to remodel Remodels into Golds and Golds into Province. So Pawnshop could pawnshop Pawnshops into Provinces for 4D in the endgame so a massive Pawnshop strategy might be broken. This is why I would consider giving it a Debt Cost, 4 or 5.

I like Freelancer for the novel "discard Debt" and the "take Debt to moat" idea.

200

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Aleimon Thimble's top 30 favorite cards

« on: September 06, 2016, 09:04:27 pm »

The way you build a deck that can play a bunch of terminal payload is similar. Also they both want the ability to but lot of things in one turn.

So does Bridge. Doesn't mean that it has a whole lot in common though with Merchant Guild except for providing coins and an extra buy,