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Author Topic: Gathering, Debt and Semi-perma-durations  (Read 2811 times)

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tristan

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Gathering, Debt and Semi-perma-durations
« on: June 29, 2016, 12:14:14 pm »
+1

Farmer's Market triggers and self-trashes automatically. Temple provides a trade-off between having an on-play effect which is good in the early game and gaining VPs via gaining the card late in the game. Wild Hunt can gain the VPs at any time but at the cost of self-junking.
Here is another Gathering card, a simple Peddler variant which accumulates Coin tokens and self-trashes whenever you want them. It is part of a 4-6 split pile with a "resurrecter" on top of it:


Voodoo Priestess
Types: Action-Duration
Cost:
+1 Card
+1 Action
You may gain a non-Victory card from the trash, putting it into your hand. If you don't, at the start of your next turn:
+1 Buy
覧覧覧覧覧覧
While this is in play, when you trash a Demon Pirate, gain a Demon Pirate from the trash.

Demon Pirate
Types: Action-Gathering
Cost: 6D
Choose one: Trash this and take the Coin tokens on the Usurer Supply pile; or
+1 Card, +1 Action, + and add a Coin token to the Usurer Suppy pile.


Here are two (semi)-perma-durations with card-coin conversion and vice versa. As both imply a cost you can stop to play them at the cost of them ending to be perma-durations and being discarded.

Pirate Hideout
Types: Action-Duration
Cost:
At the start of your next turn(s):
You may discard a card and take a Coin token. If you do this stay in play. If you don't, discard this at the end of the turn.

Waterfall
Types: Action-Duration
Cost:
At the start of your next turn(s):
You may take and draw a card. If you do this stay in play. If you don't, discard this at the end of the turn.

The cantrip version of Pirate Hideout, i.e. "+1 Card, +1 Action, discard a card and take a Coin token", is to Baker what Oasis is to Peddler so it would probably cost 4$. The perma-duration version would probably be roughly balanced at 5$ (taking Lab-Hireling as rough benchmark while taking into account that a prince increase from 4 to 5 is of course not the same as from 5 to 6).

I have a harder time with Waterfall. It is basically coins for cards which has so far only been done via Storyteller. I think that the card is on average weaker than Pirate Hideout but in some Kingdoms, e.g. in Colony games, it is pretty good.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2016, 08:51:38 pm by tristan »
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AdrianHealey

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Re: Gathering, Debt and Semi-perma-durations
« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2016, 12:22:07 pm »
0

Interesting cards. I like where you are going with this.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Gathering, Debt and Semi-perma-durations
« Reply #2 on: June 30, 2016, 01:55:22 pm »
+3

Suggested wording for Pirate Hideout
Cost: 
At the start of your next turn:
You may discard a card and take a Coin token. If you do play this again.

I believe this will work as you intend (with the side effect of impacting play counts for Conspirator). But simply saying "this stays in play" wouldn't cause you to use it at the start of every turn.
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tristan

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Re: Gathering, Debt and Semi-perma-durations
« Reply #3 on: July 01, 2016, 05:08:05 am »
0

Suggested wording for Pirate Hideout
Cost: 
At the start of your next turn:
You may discard a card and take a Coin token. If you do play this again.

I believe this will work as you intend (with the side effect of impacting play counts for Conspirator). But simply saying "this stays in play" wouldn't cause you to use it at the start of every turn.
"This stays in play" is the wording used on Hireling.
Perhaps I should add something though to avoid unclarity. Something like "At the start of each of your turn(s), i.e. for as long as you do not discard this"

Your version might be read wrongly, i.e. that you can play the card several times during one turn so I guess it should be phrased as "If you do, play this again at the start of your next turn".
I don't like the "play again" wording though as it is pretty ambiguous. It might confuse folks such that they assume that they play the "first turn" part of the duration again and that the "next turn" part thus only hits every second turn.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Gathering, Debt and Semi-perma-durations
« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2016, 10:49:57 am »
0

Suggested wording for Pirate Hideout
Cost: 
At the start of your next turn:
You may discard a card and take a Coin token. If you do play this again.

I believe this will work as you intend (with the side effect of impacting play counts for Conspirator). But simply saying "this stays in play" wouldn't cause you to use it at the start of every turn.
"This stays in play" is the wording used on Hireling.
Perhaps I should add something though to avoid unclarity. Something like "At the start of each of your turn(s), i.e. for as long as you do not discard this"

Your version might be read wrongly, i.e. that you can play the card several times during one turn so I guess it should be phrased as "If you do, play this again at the start of your next turn".
I don't like the "play again" wording though as it is pretty ambiguous. It might confuse folks such that they assume that they play the "first turn" part of the duration again and that the "next turn" part thus only hits every second turn.

Hireling works because it says "at the start of each of your turns for the rest of the game". The "this stays in play" is just an italicized, parenthesized reminder that doesn't actually do anything; the card would work exactly the same without it. With Pirate Hideout, you can't use "at the start of each of your turns" because the effect isn't permanent. You can possibly say "at the start of each of your turns until this leaves play" though.

At the start of each of your turns until this leaves play:
You may discard a card and take a Coin token. If you don't, discard this at the end of the turn.

Of course that version doesn't allow you to use Procession on it successfully. Instead of "until this leaves play" you could say "until this is discarded from play" possibly, but that would feel like a weird circular logic (Durations are discarded when they're done doing things; this one is doing doing things when it is discarded).

Another thing you could do to simplify it is just make the effect non-optional, like Hireling:


At the start of each of your turns for the rest of the game:
Discard a card and take a coin token.
(This stays in play)

Obviously this makes it weaker, but I'm not sure it's really that much weaker, you're pretty likely to have at least 1 card in your hand that you'd happily trade for a coin token.

« Last Edit: July 01, 2016, 10:52:34 am by GendoIkari »
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mameluke

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Re: Gathering, Debt and Semi-perma-durations
« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2016, 11:35:23 am »
0

Suggested wording for Pirate Hideout
Cost: 
At the start of your next turn:
You may discard a card and take a Coin token. If you do play this again.

I believe this will work as you intend (with the side effect of impacting play counts for Conspirator). But simply saying "this stays in play" wouldn't cause you to use it at the start of every turn.
"This stays in play" is the wording used on Hireling.
Perhaps I should add something though to avoid unclarity. Something like "At the start of each of your turn(s), i.e. for as long as you do not discard this"

Your version might be read wrongly, i.e. that you can play the card several times during one turn so I guess it should be phrased as "If you do, play this again at the start of your next turn".
I don't like the "play again" wording though as it is pretty ambiguous. It might confuse folks such that they assume that they play the "first turn" part of the duration again and that the "next turn" part thus only hits every second turn.

Hireling works because it says "at the start of each of your turns for the rest of the game". The "this stays in play" is just an italicized, parenthesized reminder that doesn't actually do anything; the card would work exactly the same without it. With Pirate Hideout, you can't use "at the start of each of your turns" because the effect isn't permanent. You can possibly say "at the start of each of your turns until this leaves play" though.


Rules question: if Hireling were to be trashed on some future turn after it's been played (say, via Bonfire or some future card), you would still get the +1 Card at the beginning of each turn, right?
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trivialknot

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Re: Gathering, Debt and Semi-perma-durations
« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2016, 11:57:21 am »
0

One of the big weaknesses of Pirate Hideout and Waterfall is that they go back into your deck if you decide not to use the ability.  In the late game, I might willingly discard silver to get a coin token, because it might still be better than shuffling Pirate Hideout back in.

I would buy Waterfall early in the game.  It cycles your deck faster, and it isn't long before the money density of your deck exceeds $1/card.

As far as wording goes, I agree with GendoIkari that it needs modification.  I would handle it as a "below the dividing line" ability, although there would be nothing above the dividing line.

Pirate Hideout - Action/Duration - $4+3D
This does not get discarded during your cleanup phase.  If this is in play at the beginning of your turn, you may discard a card.  If you did, take a coin token.  If you didn't, discard this.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Gathering, Debt and Semi-perma-durations
« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2016, 12:02:45 pm »
0

Suggested wording for Pirate Hideout
Cost: 
At the start of your next turn:
You may discard a card and take a Coin token. If you do play this again.

I believe this will work as you intend (with the side effect of impacting play counts for Conspirator). But simply saying "this stays in play" wouldn't cause you to use it at the start of every turn.
"This stays in play" is the wording used on Hireling.
Perhaps I should add something though to avoid unclarity. Something like "At the start of each of your turn(s), i.e. for as long as you do not discard this"

Your version might be read wrongly, i.e. that you can play the card several times during one turn so I guess it should be phrased as "If you do, play this again at the start of your next turn".
I don't like the "play again" wording though as it is pretty ambiguous. It might confuse folks such that they assume that they play the "first turn" part of the duration again and that the "next turn" part thus only hits every second turn.

Hireling works because it says "at the start of each of your turns for the rest of the game". The "this stays in play" is just an italicized, parenthesized reminder that doesn't actually do anything; the card would work exactly the same without it. With Pirate Hideout, you can't use "at the start of each of your turns" because the effect isn't permanent. You can possibly say "at the start of each of your turns until this leaves play" though.


Rules question: if Hireling were to be trashed on some future turn after it's been played (say, via Bonfire or some future card), you would still get the +1 Card at the beginning of each turn, right?

Yes, and similarly if you just Procession-Hireling, you keep getting the card even though Hireling isn't there.
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mameluke

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Re: Gathering, Debt and Semi-perma-durations
« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2016, 12:25:21 pm »
0

Suggested wording for Pirate Hideout
Cost: 
At the start of your next turn:
You may discard a card and take a Coin token. If you do play this again.

I believe this will work as you intend (with the side effect of impacting play counts for Conspirator). But simply saying "this stays in play" wouldn't cause you to use it at the start of every turn.
"This stays in play" is the wording used on Hireling.
Perhaps I should add something though to avoid unclarity. Something like "At the start of each of your turn(s), i.e. for as long as you do not discard this"

Your version might be read wrongly, i.e. that you can play the card several times during one turn so I guess it should be phrased as "If you do, play this again at the start of your next turn".
I don't like the "play again" wording though as it is pretty ambiguous. It might confuse folks such that they assume that they play the "first turn" part of the duration again and that the "next turn" part thus only hits every second turn.

Hireling works because it says "at the start of each of your turns for the rest of the game". The "this stays in play" is just an italicized, parenthesized reminder that doesn't actually do anything; the card would work exactly the same without it. With Pirate Hideout, you can't use "at the start of each of your turns" because the effect isn't permanent. You can possibly say "at the start of each of your turns until this leaves play" though.


Rules question: if Hireling were to be trashed on some future turn after it's been played (say, via Bonfire or some future card), you would still get the +1 Card at the beginning of each turn, right?

Yes, and similarly if you just Procession-Hireling, you keep getting the card even though Hireling isn't there.

So, leaving the card out in order to 'track' the ability isn't quite true as the FAQ says, but keeping the card in play does give you a nice bonus for cards that care about the number of cards or Actions in play.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Gathering, Debt and Semi-perma-durations
« Reply #9 on: July 01, 2016, 12:40:58 pm »
0

Suggested wording for Pirate Hideout
Cost: 
At the start of your next turn:
You may discard a card and take a Coin token. If you do play this again.

I believe this will work as you intend (with the side effect of impacting play counts for Conspirator). But simply saying "this stays in play" wouldn't cause you to use it at the start of every turn.
"This stays in play" is the wording used on Hireling.
Perhaps I should add something though to avoid unclarity. Something like "At the start of each of your turn(s), i.e. for as long as you do not discard this"

Your version might be read wrongly, i.e. that you can play the card several times during one turn so I guess it should be phrased as "If you do, play this again at the start of your next turn".
I don't like the "play again" wording though as it is pretty ambiguous. It might confuse folks such that they assume that they play the "first turn" part of the duration again and that the "next turn" part thus only hits every second turn.

Hireling works because it says "at the start of each of your turns for the rest of the game". The "this stays in play" is just an italicized, parenthesized reminder that doesn't actually do anything; the card would work exactly the same without it. With Pirate Hideout, you can't use "at the start of each of your turns" because the effect isn't permanent. You can possibly say "at the start of each of your turns until this leaves play" though.


Rules question: if Hireling were to be trashed on some future turn after it's been played (say, via Bonfire or some future card), you would still get the +1 Card at the beginning of each turn, right?

Yes, and similarly if you just Procession-Hireling, you keep getting the card even though Hireling isn't there.

So, leaving the card out in order to 'track' the ability isn't quite true as the FAQ says, but keeping the card in play does give you a nice bonus for cards that care about the number of cards or Actions in play.

I think it is accurate; the card does help "track" the ability, but being able to track the ability isn't a prerequisite for getting the ability. Like if you Procession a Wharf, Procession stays in play to help you track that Wharf will give you +2 cards twice at the start of your next turn. But if you Procession-Procession-Wharf, nothing will stay in play to remind you that you get those cards, though you still do.
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tristan

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Re: Gathering, Debt and Semi-perma-durations
« Reply #10 on: July 01, 2016, 07:07:57 pm »
0

One of the big weaknesses of Pirate Hideout and Waterfall is that they go back into your deck if you decide not to use the ability.  In the late game, I might willingly discard silver to get a coin token, because it might still be better than shuffling Pirate Hideout back in.
Sure, the option is weak. But it is better than no option at all and a forced discard respectively debt gain.
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tristan

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Re: Gathering, Debt and Semi-perma-durations
« Reply #11 on: July 05, 2016, 10:17:19 am »
0

I played twice with a cantrip version of Usurer (the choice happens after +1 Card, +1 Action) and wasn't happy with the fairly late self-trashing so I try to mitigate this via putting it in the second slot of a split pile with the top card hedging against the self-trashing risk.
The split is 4 Voodoo Priestesses and 6 Demon Pirates.


Voodoo Priestess
Types: Action-Duration
Cost:
+1 Card
+1 Action
You may gain a non-Victory card from the trash, putting it into your hand. If you don't, at the start of your next turn:
+1 Buy
覧覧覧覧覧覧
While this is in play, when you trash a Demon Pirate, gain a Demon Pirate from the trash.


Demon Pirate
Types: Action
Cost: 6D
Choose one: Trash this and take the Coin tokens on the Usurer Supply pile; or
+1 Card, +1 Action, + and add a Coin token to the Usurer Suppy pile.


Demon Pirate stayed the same but got a thematic renaming. Voodoo Priestess is fairly weak early on, it is just a duration Market Square (without the Reaction part). About the optional gaining from the trash, obviously I couldn't use the Rogue wording due to Demon Pirate's Debt costs. I don't think that this is too strong as there aren't too many deck trashers and trash for benefit cards. Of course the main idea is that you can "resurrect" a Demon Pirate which "died" but the other player could also "resurrect" yours.
I don't want too many of them as the second card is the more interesting one anyway, hence the 4-6 split.

Voodoo Priestess could be too good though such that Demon Pirates get trashed too often. Other obvious version are to make it a non-duration or to get rid of gain from the trash.
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Re: Gathering, Debt and Semi-perma-durations
« Reply #12 on: July 15, 2016, 05:10:26 pm »
0

Technically, the bottom card should cost more than the top card so you know how to order them when setting up the kingdom pile. <6> does not cost more than (3).

What if you did use the Rogue wording, but changed the cost to a coin+debt cost? Gaining huge stuff from the trash is pretty crazy.

Is the duration effect which only gets used when there's nothing good to pick there specifically to make the card worse? Getting an extra buy next turn doesn't feel like a bonus I want. I'm imagining some AP going on about whether I want the next card from my deck or to just discard the Voodoo Priestess this turn instead of next.

I also don't think the ability to prevent trashing the Demon Pirate is worth the words on the Voodoo Priestess. You could just gain the pirate back using the priestess
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tristan

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Re: Gathering, Debt and Semi-perma-durations
« Reply #13 on: July 16, 2016, 02:20:52 am »
0

I also don't think the ability to prevent trashing the Demon Pirate is worth the words on the Voodoo Priestess. You could just gain the pirate back using the priestess
It makes a huge difference whether Voodoo Priestess can only gain back Pirates from the trash when it is played or also prevent your Pirate from being trashed while it is in play.
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