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« on: July 03, 2014, 03:09:19 am »
I appreciate the constructive criticism and assure that I am listening even though I am pretty set on this as is. I spent the last 48 hours or so contemplating a lot of what you all are putting forth. Thanks for your time and feedback. And so instantaneous too! You are all addressing the very factors I've been juggling the last few days when it came to presenting a final draft of this to this website. You guys are very thorough and very spot on. Lucky for me I feel I have valid explanations for why this expansion is what it is. I don't think anybody here is trying to be overly harsh. You're just being constructively critical. I hope you don't feel I'm being too harsh or obstinate when I say I have yet to hear any criticism that is all that valid. More like a matter of taste or not quite getting the theme/design being put forth by Dominion Gunpowder. I also have to be honest in that I wonder if you guys play the game much, or play it online like I do, which is a very tough field to play in, as you seem to think trashing and preventing attacks is of little consequence when they actually effect gameplay greatly.
The 1:1 match up with Alchemy was something I thought up just recently, and ended up liking a lot, and makes my expansion a lot more playable in real life. Dominion Gunpowder IS its own expansion, but I wanted it to be accessible and easily playable to anybody who wanted to give it a try. They don't have to print out seperate version or anything like that... they just use Alchemy as replacement cards and can start playing Dominion Gunpowder just like that. If somebody wants to make up a whole separate set for Gunpowder, they can, but they can just as easily use the replacement method I suggest in this forum's initial post. I did think about how this could limit a player if they wanted Alchemy cards and Gunpowder cards in the Supply for a game. But I was okay with it because it then comes down to the classic dichotomy of magic versus guns... one or the other. I would prefer Dominion Gunpowder to be thought of as its own set though, and the 'use as replacement cards for Alchemy' idea is simply a very basic way for people to start playing this as is. Unfortunately, all the Dominion cards I own are the virtual ones over at Goko (of which I have all but Walled Village). I do play on buying Dominion in the somewhat near future, only I just recently acquired ALL of the Arkham Horror games/expansions so I probably wont be getting hard copies of Dominion for a few months. Still, I put this up here more for others to play than me. I just wish I could playtest this more myself. I'm sure I will someday.
As far as the presentation goes, it is meant to be a simple one page concept that anybody can use to play right away if they have Dominion (or Intrigue) and Alchemy. I thought of all caps and such for card titles, but in the end went for a simple no frills version that is low on presentation but at least leaves plenty of room for the imagination.
In regards to the sameness of some of the cards, that is indeed a theme in this expansion... most armies/militaries are not known for their variety. The Soldiers, Musketeers, and Grenadiers are meant to be similar and yet slightly improve on each other in rank. In this case, I feel there is plenty of variety still among the sameness. Sure, its mainly the Militia and Knight concept reworked in little ways, but that's going to be the main type of card in an expansion with the theme of warfare... Plus, that is the standard the game's creator set forth, and the Dominion is full of very similar cards that only have slight differences. Same goes for Dominion Gunpowder. Why would I get Factory over Garrison? Cuz maybe I want to build a deck about buys and coins. Why would I get Garrison over Reserves? Cuz maybe I want more Actions than Cards to sort through. My options are totally going change depending upon what is in the Supply. And although there is sameness within this expansion, it is not the same as any other expansion and is full of unique variations of cards already in the game.
Also, there are more than two concepts in this expansion. The Bomb is its own concept, as is Gunpowder. Sulfur Pit is unique to itself. General is a different type of Victory Card. Soldier, Musketeer, and Grenadier are meant to be 'samey'... they represent an army. Reserves, Garrison, and Factory are mean to be 'samey'... they represent the support/supply an army needs to be maintained. Army is based off the Reserves/Garrison/Factory idea, but it is its whole other thing, very versatile and very strong.
As for the individual criticisms of each card...
Gunpowder... Is that really such a waste to buy a treasure card that then removes itself from your deck when used? You all like being stuck with a Potion card when there's no more useful Potion cost cards to buy from the Supply? How about when you have to buy Potion just because Familiar is the only Curser in the Supply, then when the Curses are spent or all the Familiars are bought up, you are stuck with a useless Potion card. Imagine a game that has Potion and Gunpowder in it, but no cards that trash. Does Gunpowder look so bad then? Plus, it only costs 3 Coin. That is very easy to get any given round. The trash itself thing isnt automatic when used, only if played and the Gunpowder symbol produced is spent. Its also trashing itself to make the process of building a deck of Gunpowder cost cards a limited process, which is a theme throughout Dominion. To me, it totally follows the guidelines put forth by this forum for how to make Dominion cards/expansions. Its all about balance and limitation. You seem to feel these cards are too limited, while I feel all Dominion cards are meant to be limited in one way or another, and these cards are no different. You have to judge them by a few standards, not just strong/weak. Any card can become very strong if it is the only one of its kind in the Supply for a game, or matches just right with other Kingdom cards. So, yes, the Gunpowder buying/spending process is somewhat tedious at the beginning, but is actually rather cheap and can be done quickly if you have a strong deck later in the game with plenty of buys and coin to spend. I think there's a few complexities in this expansion that you are not quite grasping or fully understanding as of yet.
Bomb... Interesting this is the main point of contention, as Bomb was the first card I thought of that then lead to the whole gunpowder/warfare concept behind this expansion. All I wanted to do was make a card that can trash any card then goes away itself. I dont like being stuck with Chapel after it has made itself useful by clearing the deck, and other such cards that Trash. Let's compare Bomb to other cards that trash. Hermit is the only other card that trashes itself. But it cannot trash any card. Bomb can. And to trash Hermit, you first have to gain a card of 3 or less Coin value, and then NOT make a buy for your turn, and Hermit might not even get to trash any other card that turn before it trashes itself. Hermit then gets trashed and you get a Madman card. Madman is useful (and returns to the Supply), but still stays in your deck til used, and whatever the Hermit gained of 3 coin or less stays stuck in your hand til trashed. Death Cart cant even be brought up in comparison really, because although it trashes itself, its not a card one gets to clean up their deck by trashing. It only trashes Action cards, not the junk like estates and copper. I continue to feel Bomb is just right for its cost as it is a very powerful one time use card, with only General being the cheaper Gunpowder cost card (and General is just a Victory card that does nothing else but VP). If you dont think it is strong, I don't think you quite value how strongly trashing effects a deck's power. Nothing is more deadly than a deck with all its useless junk removed. Ever heard of the Big Move, where you gather a ton of VP in one turn? You can usually only do that with a deck thoroughly cleaned up and made super effective by selective trashing. Bomb allows for the somewhat quick creation of a small but effective deck, especially since the Gunpowder card used to buy the Bomb trashes itself too. And though Hermit would beat out Bomb in the short term, once it comes time to trash the coppers, you are out of luck when it comes to Hermit. While it takes a few turns for a Bomb to get bought and used, the end result is a small, effective deck. Indeed, the best comparison is Island, although Island sets cards aside and does not trash at all. They both cost the same conceptually, but Island is superior because it also adds 2 VP. I still think Bomb is equally useful, and only falls short of Island cuz of the VP thing. To me, I think of it as the cheapest of the Gunpowder cost cards.
Soldier... Meant to be cheap, weak, and expendable. Also meant to be used in numbers. Two of them used in one turn reduces every other player's deck to 3 cards. Urchin cant do that. Minion cant do that. Soldier in numbers can. Also, the card can both attack and react to attacks. To me that justifies the cost. If a game comes down to one attack after another, a strategically used Soldier may get trashed, but can end up shifting the balance so you win. I don't think you are quite factoring in properly how strong these cards can be in unison and in numbers. And in conjunction with the right Kingdom cards. Plus, suppose Soldier is the ONLY reaction card in the Supply to prevent attacks. Is he so useless then?
Musketeer... Not very weak at all. If he hits a good hand later in the game, a lot more than estates and coppers are going to be discarded. And if he hits a deck with most or all of its coppers and estates trashed, you're going to hit something good. Musketeer is very effective against good decks. Ya, you're right, he's not so great against weak, crappy decks full of cards that need to be trashed. But what threat is that kind of deck to anybody? Musketeer is stronger than that deck because he can damage well built decks. And again, a one time Moat at the right time can be very useful, and change the game balance in certain struggles. Suppose Musketeer is the only card in the Supply that prevents attacks? How many cards in Dominion do prevent attacks? Not many. And they certainly don't make attacks too, let alone ones with the potential to trash cards from 3 to 6 coin cost. And once again I will point out that Musketeer is meant to be used in numbers like a military. Like Soldier, the more Musketeers you get and can put into action, the more powerful your deck will become. I suppose that can be said of any card, but in this case, these cards are meant to have strength in numbers.
Grenadier... Of course it is similar to Knights. Knights set the standard for destructive attack cards. Who else am I going to model warfare type cards after except for Knights and Rogues? But do Knights have a way to prevent attacks? No. Do Knights make a player discard from hand? Only one of them does; The other 9 don't. Two Knights attack in one turn, and unless one is Sir Michael, all the other players are left with a full hand. Two Grenadiers attack in one turn, and all the other players are down to 3 cards. A Knight deck versus Grenadier deck... Grenadiers can prevent a Knight's attack. Knights can't prevent a Grenadier's attack. And if a Grenadier prevents an attack one turn, he most likely shows up in your hand the next turn. A Grenadier deck most likely beats out a Knight deck. And again, Grenadier damages strong decks like Musketeer, and is only weak against weak decks. But again, weak decks full of trashable cards are no threat to anybody, and the last standard I'd ever use to judge a Dominion card.
Artillery... Similar but a worthy variation. And it has no problems cuz its not weak and can be very destructive, especially if a player using it knows what the top card of another player's deck is and chooses that option for artillery. It can both destroy cards from 3 to 6 coin cost and at the same time lower a player's cards in hand. And adds 2 coin. Would you rather have Dame Sylvia? lol
Cannon... Militia doesnt trash cards. Cannon is extremely destructive against a strong deck of cards. You seem more worried about weak decks than strong ones. That's not the Dominion I know. The Dominion I know is full of tough, strong decks to be worried about. If Cannon were in the Supply and no other card that trashes other player's cards were in the Supply, would you really take a pass on it and let your opponent grab up a bunch of cannons instead? If so, prepare to lose when he blows apart your deck once it gets to any worthy level of strength. Cannon is the most costly and strongest of the Gunpowder cost cards, and for good reason. I really dont think you'd think it was so weak if you had to play up against it.
Reserves/Garrison/Factory... These cards are all actually your typical +1 action +1 card that cost 3 coin. They simply allow you to go through your deck and make use of useless cards you might draw (Victory Cards, extra actions cards you cant play, etc). To call these cards weak is missing the point. Not every card in an expansion is meant to be strong. Some are more supportive They are 3 coin cost cards, and they each allow a unique mechanic that other cards in the official Dominion don't have. No comparison to Spy or Ironmonger or any card that has you look at a card then choose to discard it or put it back. These cards let you choose to discard it or put it in your hand. Spy doesnt do that. Ironmonger doesnt do that. You actually put the card in hand for use if it is useful, or you make it useful if it is useless by turning it into an Action/Card/Coin/Buy. All of these 3 cards allow you to sort through your deck at a slightly faster pace and make use of otherwise unusable cards. I have no idea why you would think that is not useful because it can be incredibly useful if done right. Not gamechanging, but helpful and can lead to winning in the long run.
Army... Again, not comparable to Spy. It does not look at a card then decide to discard it or put it back. It actually gets the next card and can put it in hand, unless you'd rather discard that card to instead choose between the 4 bonuses. Due to its amount of actions it can create (+3) it becomes even more powerful the more Army cards you have. This is also the card that makes the Soldiers, Musketeers, and Grenadiers a lot more formidable if it also happens to be in the Supply.
Sulfur Pit... Didn't notice I left out the cost in all the reworking I did of this, but I edited that typo since you pointed it out. Thanks for that. Sulfur Pit costs 3 Coin and I guarantee you that you'd buy it if it was the only Curser in the Supply (unless you want to be Cursed to death by your opponents) or if you want to build a deck of Gunpowder cost cards. It actually works best in conjunction with the Gunpowder card, as it allows you to gather Gunpowder cards with free buys, buy Gunpowder from the Supply for only 2 Coin, and be able to buy Gunpowder from the trash at all. And one thing about Sulfur Pit... It cannot be accused of being too 'samey'. It is a very unique card.
General... General is indeed just meant to be the 'Vineyard' of this set. It's requirement for VP is highly specialized. Most every expansion has a Victory card or two, and I wanted one for this expansion too. General fits just right thematically, and does have its uses, but being that it is modeled after Vineyard but in a more limited way, it is what it is. There's really no territory left in Victory cards except for basing one off of Attacks. I will try to think of a way to possibly change General so that it gets more bang if it fulfills its very specific conditions, but if that approach ends up making it too powerful, I'll probably have to keep it as is. Of all the criticisms, I feel this one has been the most constructive.
Truth is, all your constructive criticisms have been very helpful and appreciated, and when I hold my own ground and critique back, it is purely from a 'debate' standpoint and not at all hostile or deaf to points you are making. Thanks for hearing me out, and I look forward to checking out your variants/expansions some day. I've only gotten to peruse a few here so far, but they were all so interesting and awesome looking that I put it aside for when I can better read up and take the time to go through each of the one that have been crafted so well. A lot of cool game design going on here. I'm curious to how some people get their prototype cards and the artwork for them. Most everything I've seen here has been outstanding and very, very cool. Thanks again for all the input and feedback.
