Dominion Strategy Forum
Miscellaneous => Forum Games => Mafia Game Threads => Topic started by: A Drowned Kernel on March 02, 2016, 07:29:57 pm
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Welcome to M78: Insomnia Mafia
This is a game for 13 players, using an Invented Open setup designed by A Drowned Kernel (with help from faust).
Signups are open.
1. Roadrunner7671 VT, lynched Day Two
2. gkrieg13 Innocent Child, killed Night One
3. faust VT, lynched Day Five
4. silverspawn VT, lynched Day Four
5. yuma VT, killed Night Two
6. 2.71828 VT, killed Night Three
7. Hydrad Mafia Goon, survived
8. EgorK VT, endgamed
9. Joseph2302 VT, lynched Day One
10. Limetime replaced by gkrieg13, Mafia Goon, lynched Day Three
11. Teproc VT, endgamed
12. Witherweaver VT, killed Night Four
13. scott_pilgrim Mafia Goon, survived
Tags: ashersky, chairs
Game State Tracker:
Day One Start (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=14877.msg574989#msg574989)
Day Two Start (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=14877.msg579232#msg579232)
Day Three Start (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=14877.msg583536#msg583536)
Day Four Start (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=14877.msg584654#msg584654)
Day Five Start (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=14877.msg589112#msg589112)
Game End (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=14877.msg590339#msg590339)
The Golden Rule:
This is a game. Everyone who signs up to play must be considerate of each other, never get personal, and focus on having fun. Once the game starts, having signed up is a commitment: inactivity is just as inconsiderate as rude comments.
The Standard Rules:
1. No communication between players outside of the game thread or shared QTs at any time. This includes passing references, jokes, or cases in other games or threads, whether in context or not.
2. If the game thread is locked, do not post. If you are unsure if something is locked, ask the mod by PM.
3. Direct or verbatim quoting of mod-provided information or the contents of shared QTs is strictly forbidden. Paraphrasing is okay.
4. Actions with instructions that do not specify a game state will be resolved in the order they are received.
5. All night actions must be submitted within 24 hours of day ending.
6. Players must post once every 24 hours.
7. Do not edit or delete posts, ever. If you need to clarify or correct something, post again.
8. Invisible text, font size less than 10, and spoiler tags are not allowed.
9. Cryptography is not allowed.
10. The time between a lynch being reached and a flip being provided is called twilight. All players may continue posting during this time, including the lynched player.
11. Dead players may not post in thread or QT. A lynched player is not "dead" until a flip has been provided.
12. Personal multimedia, such as video or audio recordings, are not allowed in the game thread.
The Voting Rules:
1. Votes should be in this format: Vote: Playername. Unambigiuous nicknames are acceptable.
2. Unvotes should be in this format: unvote or Unvote: Playername.
3. Unvotes are not required if changing your vote from one player to another.
4. You may vote: no lynch.
5. Lynches occur when a simple majority (rounded up) of living players is reached. Once reached, a lynch cannot be undone.
6. If deadline is reached without a lynch, a No-Lynch will occur.
The Rest:
1. Bold, blue text is reserved for the Mods. Players may not use it.
2. If you have an issue or problem with the game, please PM the Mods. Do not post complaints in the game thread.
3. Mods make mistakes - please point them out gently. If they can be corrected, they will. If irreversible, they will stand as final to be commiserated over after the game.
4. If a mod error disadvantages one faction greatly, the game may be called off.
5. Ask all questions and make all requests directly to the Mods via PM or in your QT. Questions deemed as "universal" (defined as questions for which the answers should be available to all players) will be requested to be re-posted in the Game Thread and answered there.
6. Prods will be issued UPON REQUEST after a player has been inactive for 24 hours. If a player receives three prods over the course of the game they are subject to a modkill.
7. All rule violations will be dealt with according to their severity, as determined by the mods.
Deadlines:
Days will last 10 IRL days, with deadlines adjusted for my own availability. Nights will last 48 hours. Neighborhood actions will be due at the 24 hour mark, mafia actions will be due at the end of the Night.
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This setup is a work in progress and may change before the game begins.
Insomnia Mafia
A game for 13 players
3 Mafia Goons
9 Vanilla Townies
1 Innocent Child
Scum has normal factional NK, as well as Daychat.
At the beginning of N0, all players except for the IC are randomly assigned to one of 4 Neighborhoods, with exactly 3 players in each one.
-During the day, players may only post votes in their neighborhoods. Posting at night is unrestricted.
-Each Neighborhood controls a PR. Each Night, the members of the Neighborhood may vote on a player NOT in the Neighborhood to target with the PR. This target is chosen by a majority vote.
-To use their PR, the Neighborhood must also vote on a member to carry out the action. Upon being selected, that player may PM the mod saying that they will secretly cancel the action, but they may NOT choose a target other than the one voted on by the Neighborhood.
-Both votes will be locked in as soon as a majority is reached, similar to the lynch vote. Players may still talk at Night after the vote has been locked in.
-If a member of a Neighborhood is lynched, then its action will be unavailable the following Night.
-If a member of a Neighborhood is Night Killed, then its action will be unavailable the next Night.
-Deadline for Neighborhood actions will be 24 hours before the end of the Night, deadline for Mafia actions will be at the end of the Night. All actions will still be resolved simultaneously. Majority votes lock in the decisions, same as for voting for the lynch. If a majority is not reached by deadline, no action will be taken.
The four Neighborhood powers are:
-Doctor (http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Doctor)
-Roleblocker (http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Roleblocker)
-Motion Detector (http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Motion_Detector) (only the player taking the action receives the result)
-Paranoid Gun Owner (http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Paranoid_Gun_Owner) (this neighborhood only votes for the player who acts as the PR, and does not vote for a target)
Role specifications:
-Motion Detector will receive results of “Motion Detected” or “Motion Not Detected”. These are both distinct from "No Result" if the Motion Detector is Roleblocked.
-If an action is Roleblocked, it will not be seen by the Motion Detector.
-Doctor protects against PGO kills. Roleblocker will stop the PGO from killing anyone.
Sample PMs:
Welcome, [player name], to Insomnia Mafia! You are a Vanilla Townie! You win when all Mafia players have been eliminated.
You are part of the [Neighborhood Link]. You may post freely there during the Night and vote on its power during the Day. Please post there at least once a Night, including Night 0.
Welcome, [player name], to Insomnia Mafia! You are an Innocent Child. You win when all Mafia playes have been eliminated. You will be mod-confirmed as town at the beginning of day one.
Welcome, [player name], to Insomnia Mafia! You are a Mafia Goon! You win when Mafia controls the Town, or nothing can happen to prevent that. You may talk with your partners [scum QT link]. This QT will be open Night and Day.
You are part of the [Neighborhood Link]. You may post freely there during the Night and vote on its power during the Day. Please post there at least once a Night, including Night 0.
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/in
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/in
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/in
The setup is basically a simplified version of ASoIaF Mafia.
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Is the Paranoid Gun Owner 1-shot?
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/in
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In. Want to read over setup but probably in.
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/in
This setup looks amazing
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/in
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So, setup talk. Each qt "may" vote on a player to target. So targeting is not compulsive, but if targeting occurs, qt "must" select a player.
Is targeting by majority, but will it occur even if only one player votes on a player to target (say 4 in qt, only one player votes. Does the action still go through)? Are ties decided by coin flip?
Just some technicalities that I think the rules should address.
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Tag
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/in
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Not sure how e already knows that he's going to be sucm, but he's doing setup talk, so he must.
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/in
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Not sure how e already knows that he's going to be sucm, but he's doing setup talk, so he must.
Vote: -1
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On deadlines: I'm still deciding how much Night deadlines should be adjusted, as well as whether to keep the Neighborhoods open during the day. I'd like to hear suggestions from anyone interested in playing on the matter.
My feedback would be twofold:
1. Keep night deadlines as short as possible. Probably still the 48 hours as usual for both the night and for processing night actions. The setup doesn't seem so complex that resolution couldn't be done in around 10 minutes for the mod. I suggest this because any game that has longer than 48 hour nights tends to have a hard time with activity.
2. To help facilitate night time discussion keep the neighborhoods open during the day ONLY for voting purposes. That is, only allow members of the neighborhood to vote during the day whether or not to use the neighborhood and who should use it. No other posting during the day would be allowed. Something like: <b>Vote: WW</b> or <b>Vote: No Action</b> would be the only things permitted during the day. Votes during the day would be binding through the night so that if a player isn't able to have a lot of access during the night there would still be the possibility for an action to take affect and would also mean that players would have to be wary of their voting as a vote in the QT could be binding even before nightfalls. This would also be interesting way to semi-communicate with neighbors in a subtle, private way.
I haven't thought this through completely and there may be issues with my suggestions, but mostly I think keeping nights at 48 hours at maximum should be sought after.
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Remember, there is additional twist with action executioner who can cancel action. That's why 24 hour deadline for group actions is added, I believe
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/in
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Remember, there is additional twist with action executioner who can cancel action. That's why 24 hour deadline for group actions is added, I believe
Main reason for that is that having mafia and neighborhood deadlines simultaneously would result in the neighborhood holding off on their decision for as long as possible in order to not give mafia an idea about whom they should target. So one needs to come before the other; having mafia go last is better balance-wise.
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Remember, there is additional twist with action executioner who can cancel action. That's why 24 hour deadline for group actions is added, I believe
Main reason for that is that having mafia and neighborhood deadlines simultaneously would result in the neighborhood holding off on their decision for as long as possible in order to not give mafia an idea about whom they should target. So one needs to come before the other; having mafia go last is better balance-wise.
I missed that twist. Still I would encourage keeping nights to a maximum of 48 hours to prevent lags. I guess people would be posting in neighborhoods theoretically during the night so that would prevent lags but it is still a concern if you start to get into the third night and day still hasn't started. Makes it hard to remember stuff that occurred in the previous night.
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Remember, there is additional twist with action executioner who can cancel action. That's why 24 hour deadline for group actions is added, I believe
Main reason for that is that having mafia and neighborhood deadlines simultaneously would result in the neighborhood holding off on their decision for as long as possible in order to not give mafia an idea about whom they should target. So one needs to come before the other; having mafia go last is better balance-wise.
I missed that twist. Still I would encourage keeping nights to a maximum of 48 hours to prevent lags. I guess people would be posting in neighborhoods theoretically during the night so that would prevent lags but it is still a concern if you start to get into the third night and day still hasn't started. Makes it hard to remember stuff that occurred in the previous night.
I agree that it's bad to have nights that are longer than 48 hours.
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I like Yuma's suggestion of only allowing voting during the day, that's a nice compromise. I'll update the rules and plaster list when I get home.
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/in
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/in
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/in
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I think it's L-1 already!
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/hammertime
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Wow that filled up super quick
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I guess I'll be scum, town and everything in between.
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Updated OPs with deadline info and Neighborhood posting restrictions. chairs, you unfortunately missed the hammer, so I'll consider that an "available for replacement."
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Also, I realized I never posted my rulings on QT posting, and here's the thing: unless people protest, I wasn't actually planning on making personal QTs for this game. It's not really necessary for the setup, as requiring people to post in their neighborhoods once a night functions as a confirmation, and no one has a PR. Some people might make a personal QT anyway and I don't think it's within my power as a mod to prevent them from quoting it. Just a full disclosure before the game begins.
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And I just realized there was still a ruling on the subject in the rules that I copy-pasted. Dammit.
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Is the Paranoid Gun Owner 1-shot?
No.
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Is the Paranoid Gun Owner 1-shot?
No.
So the person that the neighborhood chooses is always a permanent gun owner?
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Is the Paranoid Gun Owner 1-shot?
No.
So the person that the neighborhood chooses is always a permanent gun owner?
Ah, I understand what you mean. No, they're only a PGO for that night.
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Is the Paranoid Gun Owner 1-shot?
No.
So the person that the neighborhood chooses is always a permanent gun owner?
Thanks.
Ah, I understand what you mean. No, they're only a PGO for that night.
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I'm pretty busy tonight so this won't start until tomorrow at the earliest. Make sure you've read the rules before the game starts.
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And the setup, while you're at it.
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Sample PMs added to the setup post.
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Thread Locked except for tags, PMs going out shortly. Day One will begin in ~24 hours.
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PMs sent, Day One will begin at 6 pm US central (UTC-6) March 7.
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Added a bit to the setup post specifying that votes in Neighborhoods are locked in once a majority is reached.
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Day One Start
gkrieg13 is an Innocent Child!
Vote Count 1.0
Not Voting (13): Roadrunner7671, gkrieg13, faust, silverspawn, yuma, 2.71828, Hydrad, EgorK, Joseph2302, Limetime, Teproc, Witherweaver, scott_pilgrim
With 13 players alive, it takes 7 to lynch. Day One will end Thursday, March 17th, 7 pm. forum time.
THREAD UNLOCKED.
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I didn't have any neighbors :'(
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Are you actually the ic or is it really WW?
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So I think neighborhood claiming right off the bat is probably best?
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So I think neighborhood claiming right off the bat is probably best?
I don't think so at all
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No.
No neighborhood claiming
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If you claim neighborhoods, you basically tell scum what neighborhood to kill from if they want to deactivate a power.
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vote: yuma
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So I think neighborhood claiming right off the bat is probably best?
I don't think so at all
Ok. Cause in a similar game to this Harry potter1 I had the same thought as you and was ultimately proven wrong.
Odds are that mafia already know 2 of the neighborhoods, and possibly 3. And I think we will to an extent want to know who we are lynching so that we can make sure we don't eliminate a power we might want to use tonight, maybe other nights won't matter as much, but today I think it is a factor we should be ant to know about.
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vote: yuma
Phooey. At least give me a chance to explain before getting your {insert something mildly witty here}
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I was not involved in Harry Potter, and am willing to listen, but my first thoughts are not D1.
D2/D3, yes, we will want to. Not D1 though.
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And if you don't believe me go check out that mafia game. Hosted by EFHW I think M28?
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I was not involved in Harry Potter, and am willing to listen, but my first thoughts are not D1.
D2/D3, yes, we will want to. Not D1 though.
And I too am willing to listen, which is why I haven't forced the issue by claiming, but I can already tell that the two of us are thinking the same thing but approaching it from different perspectives...
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So I think neighborhood claiming right off the bat is probably best?
Probably no. And until we have decided a course of action,
Nobody should share anything that happened in their QT.
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I was not involved in Harry Potter, and am willing to listen, but my first thoughts are not D1.
D2/D3, yes, we will want to. Not D1 though.
And I too am willing to listen, which is why I haven't forced the issue by claiming, but I can already tell that the two of us are thinking the same thing but approaching it from different perspectives...
I think Harry Potter Mafia played a little bit differently because there was the power to vote in each house? Different than controlling a PR.
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So I think neighborhood claiming right off the bat is probably best?
Probably no. And until we have decided a course of action,
Nobody should share anything that happened in their QT.
Unless it's their mafia QT, which they should promptly share
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This is the thing, I crunched the number, chances that mafia does not know all neighborhood are roughly 50%. And if that's the case, I think it will be very beneficial to keep it that way.
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So I think neighborhood claiming right off the bat is probably best?
Probably no. And until we have decided a course of action,
Nobody should share anything that happened in their QT.
Oh good faust is here to declare ultimatums.
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Yes we don't want to lynch the wrong people. But that can be taken care of by letting people claim at L-1. No reason to claim everything right away.
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I confirmed in my neighborhood QT. So did the two other players.
Oops.
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I had vote: yuma typed, but I will be let myself get worked up over this.
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"I will not let myself get worked up", that should say.
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Look, yuma. You're not 100% sure that claiming is the best course of action, right? And on the chance that it's not, that means we don't want to give mafia additional information. Any talk about QTs gives away that information. So unless we have a consensus that we want to share this, we should not. Am I so off base here?
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I had vote: yuma typed, but I will be let myself get worked up over this.
good for you!
but can you see my frustration...
I make a casual suggestion and get vote for it.
You make an ultimatum in bold font and automatic agreement.
I concede my suggestion could very well be wrong and your ultimatum could very well be right, but I am honestly really tired of everything that comes out of your mouth being treated like doctrine and other player's being automatically assumed to be jack-assery. I just doesn't make the game very fun to have someone consistently hit you over the head saying, you are an idiot, go back to your cave
But sure, I'll abide your commands and play nice. But allow me to feel frustrated, please...
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Look, yuma. You're not 100% sure that claiming is the best course of action, right? And on the chance that it's not, that means we don't want to give mafia additional information. Any talk about QTs gives away that information. So unless we have a consensus that we want to share this, we should not. Am I so off base here?
No. I just want to have a discussion about my ideas. Instead I get votes and condescension. I am not looking for uber amounts of respect. Just a modicum of it.
I have to say that if you had come out with my suggestion people would have been claiming their neighborhoods left and right cause you suggested it... and maybe you wouldn't have suggested it because it actually isn't a good idea, but I think you get where I am going with this...
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So ultimately this is why I think we should neighborhood claim.
Today is probably the one and only day that we will be lynching at random... Not truly random, but from no previous information... so "semi-random."
Other days will have the previous days lynches and any information that is gleaned from night actions/interactions.
As such on those future days we may want to lynch someone who is in a neighborhood that has a power role that we may want to use more than the others. But I think we should still lynch that person regardless of their neighborhood. Because lynching is how we play and win the game as town, not allowing our preferred lynch to be dictated by other conditions.
That said, today is the only day that we don't have those preferences set by previous days. So I think it would be better to full house claim so that we can decide from which neighborhood(s) we want to lynch from the get go (I have ideas as I think others do as well) and ensure that we get to use the powers that we want tonight. Yes, to an extent we can do part of that by allowing for L-1 claims and such... but I have zero confidence in our collective ability to do that. Pessimist am I? Sure, but look around...
In addition, I don't think we will be giving mafia all that much information that is extra. They probably already know two houses. Possibly three (and possibly one) and will likely learn them relatively soon regardless.
But like I said I am not going to force this if people don't want to, but just putting the idea out there to consider...
I guess if people want to vote me for discussing... feel free... but that just feels kinda ridiculous to me...
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or maybe I am just legitimately an idiot. I was in Harry Potter Mafia where I argued against house claiming until people who knew better proved me wrong. So prove me wrong... and I'll go sit down and be quiet like a good little boy.
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Look, yuma. You're not 100% sure that claiming is the best course of action, right? And on the chance that it's not, that means we don't want to give mafia additional information. Any talk about QTs gives away that information. So unless we have a consensus that we want to share this, we should not. Am I so off base here?
No. I just want to have a discussion about my ideas. Instead I get votes and condescension. I am not looking for uber amounts of respect. Just a modicum of it.
I have to say that if you had come out with my suggestion people would have been claiming their neighborhoods left and right cause you suggested it... and maybe you wouldn't have suggested it because it actually isn't a good idea, but I think you get where I am going with this...
Sorry. I'm perfectly willing to have a discussion. But I think it is really easy to accidentally leak that info, and so I felt it was a necessary step to first remind everyone to be cautious. I was afraid that had I done all the explaining needed before making that post, some information would already have leaked. I don't want to come across as commanding, but I know some people are not thinking about the setup as much as others and may casually drop that, for instance "I have a town read on that guy because of what happened in our QT" or some such.
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So I will get into my reasoning more specifically.
Scum has one top priority neighborhood to kill from: the Doctors. As long as the Doctors can use their power, the mafia cannot get rid of the IC. There is an about 38% a priori chance that scum is not in the Doctor neighborhood. If that's the case and mafia is also not evenly distributed to the other QTs, that's a big upside for us: Scum have to guess who's a Doctor and if they get if wrong, gkrieg will remain alive one more Day.
I understand that you're worried about people not letting others claim at L-1. I am too, to an extent. I kinda hope that as long as we have an IC around, that policy is just a little more enforceable. Like, we could all agree that the hammer should come from gkrieg, and if anyone breaks that rule, they get instalynched the following day. And then we just hope that town does not mess up. And if they mess up, well at least we get to blame someone else for losing the game.
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Well I for one think the information leak would be worth the information of tow reads or scum reads based off QT interactions. That to me is an acceptable trade if it means we get a chance for a better lynch.
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hihi!
So lets see if I can figure out pros and cons or claiming.
Cons: Scum could just target a strong PR group to kill them all and we lose a good PR. (I'm not really sure what the best PR's and stuff are but I'm sure there are tiers.
We could lynch someone with a strong PR instead of a weak PR if its a 50/50 tossup. (this is a really weak point IMO. I agree with yuma that we really shouldn't use what neighbour hood they are in to influence our lynches)
They know who to kill to disable a group if they need to? (Hmm kinda the same as the first point)
They know where everyone is if they didn't have a good idea before. (but according to faust its a 50/50 so not a huge risk on this one I guess)
Not to many cons I'm thinking of.
Pros.
we can potentially coordinate PRs better maybe?
Town could publically choose who they want to lead the neighbour hood or whatever? to reduce the chance of scum choosing everything in a neighbourhood? (this could be interesting. that way even if scum has 3 people in one neighbourhood they wouldn't be able to use it like they wanted as easily)
Potentially get out of RVS easy?
Can't think of much else right now.
Overall less cons then I thought and more pros maybe? I dunno I'd be down for claiming if others agreed.
PPE2
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I concede my suggestion could very well be wrong and your ultimatum could very well be right, but I am honestly really tired of everything that comes out of your mouth being treated like doctrine and other player's being automatically assumed to be jack-assery. I just doesn't make the game very fun to have someone consistently hit you over the head saying, you are an idiot, go back to your cave
And, as an aside, that is not what I want either. People should absolutely go out and challenge me. That happens too little, and it's how I win my games as scum (which is nice), because it seems people just think of me as some kind of authority. Well, I'm not, and some people would probably get better at playing mafia if they started to disagree with me more.
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Ok. Those are fair points. I think I would agree more if the percentages were reversed. Like if it was more likely that mafia didn't know who the docs were. But as it is it is likely they already do. So they likely have an advantage. I think the risk of giving them information they likely already have is lent as significant than if we were giving the info that it was unlikely they had.
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Also if scum is already in the doc house doesn't that complicate things quite a bit for them... Have to decide whether to use doc power or not... What if are only one left in doc house?
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Ok. Those are fair points. I think I would agree more if the percentages were reversed. Like if it was more likely that mafia didn't know who the docs were. But as it is it is likely they already do. So they likely have an advantage. I think the risk of giving them information they likely already have is lent as significant than if we were giving the info that it was unlikely they had.
I get that. If they already know, we're making a big fuss over nothing. Well I think there' also minor utility in keeping other neighborhoods hidden, but the Doctor one is by and large the greatest.
It will probably not be terrible if we claim. Even if scum doesn't know who the Docs are, they know two neighborhoods already, which means that they have a 50% success chance if aiming for the Docs. I don't feel too strongly about this. But I wanted to make sure we don't stumble into a decision through some not-thought-through post.
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Also if scum is already in the doc house doesn't that complicate things quite a bit for them... Have to decide whether to use doc power or not... What if are only one left in doc house?
Not sure what you're getting at. The Docs could elect a scum player to use the power, but if they don't use it and gkrieg dies N1, then that just paints a huge target on their back, no?
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Also if scum is already in the doc house doesn't that complicate things quite a bit for them... Have to decide whether to use doc power or not... What if are only one left in doc house?
Not sure what you're getting at. The Docs could elect a scum player to use the power, but if they don't use it and gkrieg dies N1, then that just paints a huge target on their back, no?
That was what I was getting at, plus something else that doesn't make sense because I got confused for a moment.
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Also yay no rvs Vote: hydrad
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I looked on the rules but couldn't find it: when a player is lynched or night killed will they flip their respective neighborhood?
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Neighborhood claiming sucks.
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Neighborhood claiming sucks.
Vote: RR
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Neighborhood claiming sucks.
Vote: RR
Vote: Yuma
We're off to a productive start!
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I looked on the rules but couldn't find it: when a player is lynched or night killed will they flip their respective neighborhood?
I think this is what I was assuming, which makes it so claiming isn't a very good thing as far as I can see.
I'll preface my perspective with why I feel this way. I had the opportunity to think about claiming neighborhoods while everyone was talking in their neighborhoods (which is too bad because I've never been in a neighborhood :'(). So when yuma started out saying that we should claim them, my initial thought was, "only scum would say we should claim, and if they did, it would be right at the beginning to get information out of people before they had the chance to think about whether we should claim." So that is what caused the reaction and the vote against you yuma.
So this is my perspective, scum has 3 options. They know 1 house, 2 houses, or all 4 houses. I'm no mathematician, but I don't think the odds of them knowing all 4 houses is very high, and if they do, I guess they would be against claiming. But if they don't, they absolutely want to know which PRs are controlled by whom. I don't think it is that important for us to know as town except that we probably don't want to lynch from the doctor pool until I have been killed. I trust that between 3 people, even if one is scum, our townies are smart enough to know who to use their PR on. Also one of the neighborhoods is PGO. It is much better for scum to not know who is in that neighborhood, because they would try to avoid that neighborhood. Of course this goes both ways. We don't want our PRs to target someone from that neighborhood, but it is not as bad because we would still have that PR etc.
Anyway, I don't think we should be claiming neighborhoods right now. I think it is much better to just claim as is necessary (L-1 with intent to hammer). I can be the hammerer if that makes people feel better. I need the hammer stats. :P
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also vote: RR
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Yep, that is how I think RR would respond at this point. Keeping my vote here for real now.
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also vote: RR
D:
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When was last time you were mafia RR?
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When was last time you were mafia RR?
This game X-Shot Mafia.
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I'm no mathematician, but I don't think the odds of them knowing all 4 houses is very high
The odds of them knowing all houses are exactly as high as the odds of them knowing only two houses. The odds of all mafia being in one house are very slim, like <2%.
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also vote: RR
You know, you cannot be the hammerer if you go about voting people.
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But I can vote: RR
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But I can vote: RR
I'm going to claim.
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But I can vote: RR
I'm going to claim.
NO
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Your obsession with claiming is getting really annoying.
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But I can vote: RR
I'm going to claim.
NO
Just a prank bro.
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Just a prank bro.
Well, with you, one can never know. I hear you've been fakeclaiming as town before.
(by the way, so have I... a long time ago.)
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Just a prank bro.
Well, with you, one can never know. I hear you've been fakeclaiming as town before.
(by the way, so have I... a long time ago.)
That was different. You know that was different. I trusted you Faust!
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also vote: RR
You know, you cannot be the hammerer if you go about voting people.
Oh I know. It is pretty fun to be an IC so I'm just enjoying it. And I would really vote RR at that point in a regular situation
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also vote: RR
You know, you cannot be the hammerer if you go about voting people.
Oh I know. It is pretty fun to be an IC so I'm just enjoying it. And I would really vote RR at that point in a regular situation
You're the IC?
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also vote: RR
You know, you cannot be the hammerer if you go about voting people.
Oh I know. It is pretty fun to be an IC so I'm just enjoying it. And I would really vote RR at that point in a regular situation
You're the IC?
*takes palm and moves it towards face*
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also vote: RR
You know, you cannot be the hammerer if you go about voting people.
Oh I know. It is pretty fun to be an IC so I'm just enjoying it. And I would really vote RR at that point in a regular situation
You're the IC?
So you are! So now I feel comfortable claiming.
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also vote: RR
You know, you cannot be the hammerer if you go about voting people.
Oh I know. It is pretty fun to be an IC so I'm just enjoying it. And I would really vote RR at that point in a regular situation
You're the IC?
*takes palm and moves it towards face*
Are you sure it's not WW?
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dayvig: RR
That's my special IC power
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My claim: I am a Vanilla Townie.
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I'm no mathematician, but I don't think the odds of them knowing all 4 houses is very high
The odds of them knowing all houses are exactly as high as the odds of them knowing only two houses. The odds of all mafia being in one house are very slim, like <2%.
Isn't it higher than that? Like 4/20. Aren't these all the possibilities?
PPP = all three in paranoid gun owner
DDD = etc
RRR
MMM
PPD = two in paranoid, one in doc
PPR = etc
PPM
DDP
DDR
DDM
RRP
RRD
RRM
MMP
MMD
MMR
PDR = one in paranoid, one in doc, one in roleblocker
PDM = etc
PRM
DRM
Or am I missing something and doing bad math?
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That looks right to me.
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But I can vote: RR
I'm going to claim.
NO
Just a prank bro.
These two quotes are relevant:
Then focus on my serious posts and address those issues instead of skirting around the issues. You have still yet to show me a game when RR didn't Omgus vote back
We have been over this. I no longer OMGUS. I learned that it sucked. If that makes me scum, whatever bro. That's not enough evidence.
Saying "whatever, bro" is scummy, bro.
from Harry Potter II where he was a scummy bro.
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RR pretending to be unknoledgable.
Also claiming turn 1 without much reason.
vote: RR
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But I was only saying that cause I was scrambling scum bro.
PPE
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RR pretending to be unknoledgable.
Also claiming turn 1 without much reason.
vote: RR
Claiming was a joke, everyone is a VT or Mafia.
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I'm no mathematician, but I don't think the odds of them knowing all 4 houses is very high
The odds of them knowing all houses are exactly as high as the odds of them knowing only two houses. The odds of all mafia being in one house are very slim, like <2%.
Isn't it higher than that? Like 4/20. Aren't these all the possibilities?
PPP = all three in paranoid gun owner
DDD = etc
RRR
MMM
PPD = two in paranoid, one in doc
PPR = etc
PPM
DDP
DDR
DDM
RRP
RRD
RRM
MMP
MMD
MMR
PDR = one in paranoid, one in doc, one in roleblocker
PDM = etc
PRM
DRM
Or am I missing something and doing bad math?
I think your missing something I'll try to post about it a few min when I'm not on phone
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I need to write a will, don't I?
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I need to write a will, don't I?
dibs on your cool wall art
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I'm no mathematician, but I don't think the odds of them knowing all 4 houses is very high
The odds of them knowing all houses are exactly as high as the odds of them knowing only two houses. The odds of all mafia being in one house are very slim, like <2%.
Isn't it higher than that? Like 4/20. Aren't these all the possibilities?
PPP = all three in paranoid gun owner
DDD = etc
RRR
MMM
PPD = two in paranoid, one in doc
PPR = etc
PPM
DDP
DDR
DDM
RRP
RRD
RRM
MMP
MMD
MMR
PDR = one in paranoid, one in doc, one in roleblocker
PDM = etc
PRM
DRM
Or am I missing something and doing bad math?
The thing is that the events "mafia 1 is in P" and "mafia 2 is in P" are not independent. If we already know that one mafia is in P, then it is less likely that the second mafia is as well. So the scenarios you list do not all have the same probability.
This is how I calculated the probability:
Mafia 1 is in some neighborhood A. The chance that mafia 2 is in another one is 9/11 (because there are 9 spots in other neighborhoods left and 2 in the same one). The chance then that mafia 3 is in a neibhborhood different from both is 6/10 (2*2 spots in the neighborhoods that are already "occupied").
9/11*6/10=49.09%
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The thing is that the events "mafia 1 is in P" and "mafia 2 is in P" are not independent. If we already know that one mafia is in P, then it is less likely that the second mafia is as well. So the scenarios you list do not all have the same probability.
Wait what? That just seems so counter intuitive to me. But I certainly can't dispute it. Man I hate math*
*I hate that my brain wasn't trained to understand math and that I lack the patience now as an adult to understand it.
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woo maths!
Or am I missing something and doing bad math?
Yes, because the cases you listed aren't equally likely. RRR is less likely than RRM; if you are at RR and already have 2 people in the roleblocker house, there are only 2 spots left, but 4 spots in the M house (I actually did some thinking earlier where I missed this, too).
I couldn't resist to model it, and I get 1,8% for all scum in the same neighborhood.
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I looked on the rules but couldn't find it: when a player is lynched or night killed will they flip their respective neighborhood?
on phone so no vote count but I will answer this: no, players will only flip with their role names, neighborhood will remain hidden.
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I looked on the rules but couldn't find it: when a player is lynched or night killed will they flip their respective neighborhood?
on phone so no vote count but I will answer this: no, players will only flip with their role names, neighborhood will remain hidden.
Hmmm. I have no idea if that is helpful or not. Lynches we should know if we give people time to claim and if they claim accurately in the cases of mislynches. NKs we will find out eventually...
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RR pretending to be unknoledgable.
Also claiming turn 1 without much reason.
vote: RR
not reading the setup. Townie or scummy for Limetime....? Not sure.
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You know what? I think scummy. And since this is technically his second game I don't have a problem with vote: Limetime
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Specifically, odds for
Scum knowing one: 0.0182985
Scum knowing two: 0.4909258
Scum knowing four: 0.4907757
So... yeah I think I am with faust on this. I oppose claiming.
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Also-- can't we also protect the IC via paranoid gun owner, since that would kill scum? I realize that this does not work well with the doctor, though. I think that's something we should discuss.
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hmm so faust and ss basically answered it.
But i think one thing is for
PMR
there is 3 positions in each so scum could be
1P1M1R
or
2P1M1R
or
3P1M1R
or
1P2M1R
or
2P2M1R
and so on.
I think that makes it so even though something like PMR is only one possibility there are multiple ways scum could get into PMR.
So that makes it closer to 50 then 4/20
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Also-- can't we also protect the IC via paranoid gun owner, since that would kill scum? I realize that this does not work well with the doctor, though. I think that's something we should discuss.
Yes. I do agree we need to discuss this. I am totally opposed to trying to direct what a neighborhood should ultimately do, but I think a discussion is warranted. Then the neighborhoods can choose themselves.
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Also-- can't we also protect the IC via paranoid gun owner, since that would kill scum? I realize that this does not work well with the doctor, though. I think that's something we should discuss.
How would that even work?
PGO isnt a targeting ability. It is passively on the person who has it, which can't be the IC cause the IC can't be in the pgo qt
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Also-- can't we also protect the IC via paranoid gun owner, since that would kill scum? I realize that this does not work well with the doctor, though. I think that's something we should discuss.
How would that even work?
PGO isnt a targeting ability. It is passively on the person who has it, which can't be the IC cause the IC can't be in the pgo qt
Oh yeah.....well now we know who is NOT in the PGO neighborhood....
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You know what? I think scummy. And since this is technically his second game I don't have a problem with vote: Limetime
I agree but I'm to much of a Nature Valley bar to say anything!
E=MVP
Vote: Limetime
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Also-- can't we also protect the IC via paranoid gun owner, since that would kill scum? I realize that this does not work well with the doctor, though. I think that's something we should discuss.
How would that even work?
PGO isnt a targeting ability. It is passively on the person who has it, which can't be the IC cause the IC can't be in the pgo qt
oh oups. you're right.
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Also-- can't we also protect the IC via paranoid gun owner, since that would kill scum? I realize that this does not work well with the doctor, though. I think that's something we should discuss.
How would that even work?
PGO isnt a targeting ability. It is passively on the person who has it, which can't be the IC cause the IC can't be in the pgo qt
oh oups. you're right.
it was a nice idea though... town points to you!
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You know what? I think scummy. And since this is technically his second game I don't have a problem with vote: Limetime
I agree but I'm to much of a Nature Valley bar to say anything!
I am trying to understand this joke....I feel like it should be obvious...but it isnt.....at least to me.....
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yay!
also vote: RR
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You know what? I think scummy. And since this is technically his second game I don't have a problem with vote: Limetime
I agree but I'm to much of a Nature Valley bar to say anything!
I am trying to understand this joke....I feel like it should be obvious...but it isnt.....at least to me.....
Maybe it's code!
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yay!
also vote: RR
When I die, you get nothing.
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yay!
also vote: RR
When I die, you get nothing.
Do I get something if you stay alive?
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yay!
also vote: RR
When I die, you get nothing.
Do I get something if you stay alive?
Yes! Yes you do!
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RR, why do you always have to be so scummy when you are town? You know I am the only one who can read you, right? Everyone else will just lynch you no questions asked.
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yay!
also vote: RR
When I die, you get nothing.
Do I get something if you stay alive?
Yes! Yes you do!
Is it a bullet in the head?
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Are you actually the ic or is it really WW?
It's really me.
I think tentatively that we want to claim neighborhoods. At least, I believe there is reason in my case.
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I haven't looked at everything carefully, though, so not 100%.
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Are you actually the ic or is it really WW?
It's really me.
I think tentatively that we want to claim neighborhoods. At least, I believe there is reason in my case.
ohhoohho? look harder. I'm curious now.
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Are you actually the ic or is it really WW?
It's really me.
I think tentatively that we want to claim neighborhoods. At least, I believe there is reason in my case.
Which case? The one that you are IC or the one that we claim neighborhoods?
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RR, why do you always have to be so scummy when you are town? You know I am the only one who can read you, right? Everyone else will just lynch you no questions asked.
He is plenty scummy when he is scum too. To me, this feels way more like scum RR than town rr
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Vote: WW
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Vote: WW
That is antithetical to the idea I have in mind.
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Look, yuma. You're not 100% sure that claiming is the best course of action, right? And on the chance that it's not, that means we don't want to give mafia additional information. Any talk about QTs gives away that information. So unless we have a consensus that we want to share this, we should not. Am I so off base here?
No. I just want to have a discussion about my ideas. Instead I get votes and condescension. I am not looking for uber amounts of respect. Just a modicum of it.
I have to say that if you had come out with my suggestion people would have been claiming their neighborhoods left and right cause you suggested it... and maybe you wouldn't have suggested it because it actually isn't a good idea, but I think you get where I am going with this...
I don't think this is true, at least I hope it isn't. Faust asked people not to do something (without discussing it first), you asked them to do something. Well you didn't actually ask them to do something, you suggested hey maybe it's a good idea. But the consequences of people doing it are potentially significant, whereas if it's not done, nothing is lost (except maybe if it's not done for a really long time). So it's reasonable for people to respond to your idea with "No wait let's be careful!" and to faust's post with "Yes let's wait and be careful"; it has nothing to do with the fact that it was you and faust who posted it.
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So ultimately this is why I think we should neighborhood claim.
Today is probably the one and only day that we will be lynching at random... Not truly random, but from no previous information... so "semi-random."
Other days will have the previous days lynches and any information that is gleaned from night actions/interactions.
As such on those future days we may want to lynch someone who is in a neighborhood that has a power role that we may want to use more than the others. But I think we should still lynch that person regardless of their neighborhood. Because lynching is how we play and win the game as town, not allowing our preferred lynch to be dictated by other conditions.
That said, today is the only day that we don't have those preferences set by previous days. So I think it would be better to full house claim so that we can decide from which neighborhood(s) we want to lynch from the get go (I have ideas as I think others do as well) and ensure that we get to use the powers that we want tonight. Yes, to an extent we can do part of that by allowing for L-1 claims and such... but I have zero confidence in our collective ability to do that. Pessimist am I? Sure, but look around...
In addition, I don't think we will be giving mafia all that much information that is extra. They probably already know two houses. Possibly three (and possibly one) and will likely learn them relatively soon regardless.
But like I said I am not going to force this if people don't want to, but just putting the idea out there to consider...
I guess if people want to vote me for discussing... feel free... but that just feels kinda ridiculous to me...
This is the main advantage to claiming that I see. The thing is though, I think we can accomplish this roughly by having people claim at L-1, and still reveal a lot less information that way. It just means we need to be careful about hammers.
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Scum has one top priority neighborhood to kill from: the Doctors. As long as the Doctors can use their power, the mafia cannot get rid of the IC. There is an about 38% a priori chance that scum is not in the Doctor neighborhood. If that's the case and mafia is also not evenly distributed to the other QTs, that's a big upside for us: Scum have to guess who's a Doctor and if they get if wrong, gkrieg will remain alive one more Day.
I think the 38% is not quite right. If scum is in 3 separate neighborhoods (49.09% chance), they can deduce who is in the fourth neighborhood, even if that fourth neighborhood is the Doc neighborhood; so the relevant probability should be greater than 49%.
But yes, I think I agree with this argument. I don't think we lose anything by keeping neighborhoods secret, at least for D1.
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Well I for one think the information leak would be worth the information of tow reads or scum reads based off QT interactions. That to me is an acceptable trade if it means we get a chance for a better lynch.
I actually think this might be true...it probably depends on how strong of a read you have. Keep in mind you can also share who is in your QT (and therefore some neighborhood-based reads), without actually revealing what power your neighborhood is. Although I suppose that outs everyone after one of them flips...
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Well I for one think the information leak would be worth the information of tow reads or scum reads based off QT interactions. That to me is an acceptable trade if it means we get a chance for a better lynch.
I actually think this might be true...it probably depends on how strong of a read you have. Keep in mind you can also share who is in your QT (and therefore some neighborhood-based reads), without actually revealing what power your neighborhood is. Although I suppose that outs everyone after one of them flips...
they don't flip with their neighborhood info
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The thing is that the events "mafia 1 is in P" and "mafia 2 is in P" are not independent. If we already know that one mafia is in P, then it is less likely that the second mafia is as well. So the scenarios you list do not all have the same probability.
Wait what? That just seems so counter intuitive to me. But I certainly can't dispute it. Man I hate math*
*I hate that my brain wasn't trained to understand math and that I lack the patience now as an adult to understand it.
Think of it this way: you listed off all the possibilities, counting different orderings as the same. But AAA should be only 1/3 as likely as two A's and a B, since you could get AAB, ABA, or BAA. The same reason rolling a 5 and a 6 is twice as likely as rolling two 6's.
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Well I for one think the information leak would be worth the information of tow reads or scum reads based off QT interactions. That to me is an acceptable trade if it means we get a chance for a better lynch.
I actually think this might be true...it probably depends on how strong of a read you have. Keep in mind you can also share who is in your QT (and therefore some neighborhood-based reads), without actually revealing what power your neighborhood is. Although I suppose that outs everyone after one of them flips...
they don't flip with their neighborhood info
Aha, you're right! I just got to that part. That changes things...
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Specifically, odds for
Scum knowing one: 0.0182985
Scum knowing two: 0.4909258
Scum knowing four: 0.4907757
So... yeah I think I am with faust on this. I oppose claiming.
Simulations are lame...the probability of scum knowing 2 neighborhoods vs. 4 should be EXACTLY the same, not just super close!
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Hooray, I'm caught up now. I think silverspawn's "not-a-PGO"-slip is reasonably likely to be a townslip too, it seems like the sort of thing that might have come up for scum pre-game.
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I think this thing is super close to 50/50.
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Vote Count 1.1
Roadrunner7671 (4): yuma, gkrieg13, Limetime, silverspawn
Limetime (2): 2.71828, Roadrunner7671
Witherweaver (1): faust
Not Voting (6): Hydrad, EgorK, Joseph2302, Teproc, Witherweaver, scott_pilgrim
With 13 players alive, it takes 7 to lynch. Day One will end Thursday, March 17th, 7 pm. forum time.
I didn't have any neighbors :'(
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vtc7A67kZlQ
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yay!
also vote: RR
When I die, you get nothing.
Do I get something if you stay alive?
Yes! Yes you do!
Is it a bullet in the head?
No, it's four victory cards in your hand!
-
Oh and what's the case against me?
-
I'd encourage everyone to create some form of cryptology in their neighborhood to make it a day chat. Is this legal?
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I'd encourage everyone to create some form of cryptology in their neighborhood to make it a day chat. Is this legal?
9. Cryptography is not allowed.
And this seems like a grab for towncred. I pointed you to the same rule when you had that question in GOP Mafia.
Vote: RR
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I'd encourage everyone to create some form of cryptology in their neighborhood to make it a day chat. Is this legal?
9. Cryptography is not allowed.
And this seems like a grab for towncred. I pointed you to the same rule when you had that question in GOP Mafia.
Vote: RR
I...wasn't in GOP Mafia
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Ah, right. I confuse my own games. I mean Making Fun of course.
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Ah, right. I confuse my own games. I mean Making Fun of course.
Grabbing for towncred as town is a thing, yes? And I wasn't positive on the rules, some people have different interpretations, where/when do they apply, etc.
But man, I didn't do anything ever. And I'm getting lynched for it.
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Ah, right. I confuse my own games. I mean Making Fun of course.
Grabbing for towncred as town is a thing, yes? And I wasn't positive on the rules, some people have different interpretations, where/when do they apply, etc.
But man, I didn't do anything ever. And I'm getting lynched for it.
Not reading the rules is a scum tell.
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My claim: I am a Vanilla Townie.
So am I
-
So my reading of the game so far produced this:
Arguments about claiming or not with some probability discussions too: I think don't claim now, scum knows something now, but let's not give them everything for free right now.
It'll probably be good for town to do this at some point though.
RR: so RR appears to be being crazy RR again. What's the actual case though? I've read all his posts, and most seem like jokes.
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We should not claim neighborhoods, and we should really stop talking about it, or at least be a lot more careful about it. Because really, there have already been a few slips, and those make the whole "not claiming" completely pointless.
yuma is wrong and therefore town.
faust is right and therefore null.
Hydrad is enthusitatic and trying to be helpful, therefore town.
I have no idea how you guys are able to read RR.
vote: Limetime
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yuma is wrong and therefore town.
Man. This is exactly what I am talking about. I mean look at what you are saying. I don't mind being wrong and concede that I probably am, partially due to some bad math and poor assumptions about the setup, but that is fine. But I just really don't like this sort of condescention.
You say I am wrong and therefore town. So you think that when I am my most authentic self and best able to read me it is when I am stupid and wrong. Thanks man. Thanks. And thanks for your lovely words about me in your M75 QT. they just warmed my heart.
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Hooray, I'm caught up now. I think silverspawn's "not-a-PGO"-slip is reasonably likely to be a townslip too, it seems like the sort of thing that might have come up for scum pre-game.
I thought the same.
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Great. I'll reformulate.
yuma disagrees with me and is therefore town.
Better ?
It's just that I have noticed that the more i disagree with you, the more likely you are to be town. Nothing condescending about that. I say you're wrong because, well, that's what I think.
I don't remember what I said there but at any rate this is not the place to discuss them, I think you'll agree ?
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I stand by my RR vote because he continues to pretend to not know the rules.
Even if he doesn't actually know the rules he should be lynched because you are supposed to read the rules.
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I stand by my RR vote because he continues to pretend to not know the rules.
Even if he doesn't actually know the rules he should be lynched because you are supposed to read the rules.
Yay, policy lynches!
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I stand by my RR vote because he continues to pretend to not know the rules.
Even if he doesn't actually know the rules he should be lynched because you are supposed to read the rules.
That I think isn't a great reason to lynch RR, compared to the numerous other reasons which are pretty good.
-
So... what do we think about neighborhood claiming without saying which PR you have? That seems to avoid some problems that full-claiming has while still giving us an opportunity to share QT-based reads.
-
So... what do we think about neighborhood claiming without saying which PR you have? That seems to avoid some problems that full-claiming has while still giving us an opportunity to share QT-based reads.
I'll think about this more. Of course it makes it so that once mafia hits once, they know all the neighborhoods.
-
So... what do we think about neighborhood claiming without saying which PR you have? That seems to avoid some problems that full-claiming has while still giving us an opportunity to share QT-based reads.
I'll think about this more. Of course it makes it so that once mafia hits once, they know all the neighborhoods.
Why?
-
So... what do we think about neighborhood claiming without saying which PR you have? That seems to avoid some problems that full-claiming has while still giving us an opportunity to share QT-based reads.
I'll think about this more. Of course it makes it so that once mafia hits once, they know all the neighborhoods.
Why?
I had just woken up when I posted this. I have no idea
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Are you actually the ic or is it really WW?
It's really me.
I think tentatively that we want to claim neighborhoods. At least, I believe there is reason in my case.
I also didn't know there was already 3--4 pages of content when I posted this, and I hadn't read past the post I was responding to. (Was on phone.)
-
My claim: I am a Vanilla Townie.
So am I
Why are you claiming this?
-
Okay nevermind.
-
I think I'm around to agreeing with no neighborhood claim.
-
It's nice to have you in a game scott!
-
So my reading of the game so far produced this:
Arguments about claiming or not with some probability discussions too: I think don't claim now, scum knows something now, but let's not give them everything for free right now.
It'll probably be good for town to do this at some point though.
RR: so RR appears to be being crazy RR again. What's the actual case though? I've read all his posts, and most seem like jokes.
This post is scummy by the way. Way too generic.
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So my reading of the game so far produced this:
Arguments about claiming or not with some probability discussions too: I think don't claim now, scum knows something now, but let's not give them everything for free right now.
It'll probably be good for town to do this at some point though.
RR: so RR appears to be being crazy RR again. What's the actual case though? I've read all his posts, and most seem like jokes.
This post is scummy by the way. Way too generic.
Surprised I actually strung that many words together coherently at that time (7:35am)
-
And it's kind of generic, but I agree with the not claiming arguments. Sure, scum knows stuff now, but let's not give them complete information straight away.
-
Oh and what's the case against me?
-
Oh and what's the case against me?
Its day1 there isn't a "CASE"
But there are a handful of scummy posts that you have made that people have pointed out. I am sure if you went back and reread you could find them all on your lonesome. But there isn't a case. And there probably won't be one any time soon either. And that is ok, it is Day1.
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Oh and what's the case against me?
Its day1 there isn't a "CASE"
But there are a handful of scummy posts that you have made that people have pointed out. I am sure if you went back and reread you could find them all on your lonesome. But there isn't a case. And there probably won't be one any time soon either. And that is ok, it is Day1.
True.
But just because RR is a lunatic, that doesn't make him actually scum.
He posts random things, but nothing so far screams "scummy" to me.
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Alright... a case on RR... An unnecessary case, but if that is what is needed then here:
First post:
Neighborhood claiming sucks.
adds nothing new, is preemptively aggressive, piggy backs on other people's opinions, doesn't give his own reasoning for why it is bad.
I vote for him with a theory in mind that town RR will go to the woe is me mode and that scum RR will OMGUS. Keep in mind that I came to this conclusion because it is the opposite of what I expected from previous RR incarnations. This is because from what I have seen RR has wild oscillations in his behavior going from one extreme to the other and it looks like he is due for a swing in this direction.
His second post is the anticipated OMGUS vote:
Neighborhood claiming sucks.
Vote: RR
Vote: Yuma
We're off to a productive start!
Next two posts are emoticons and jokes about him being scum--scummy stuff there.
Then states he is going to claim. Immediately backs of his stance and states it is a joke.
Feigns ignorance of the IC. joke, joke, joke, explaining jokes
and then this to me is the second most indicative post, the vote on Lifetime where he combines a joke with a sheeping, serious vote on someone who might be a counter wagon to him.
You know what? I think scummy. And since this is technically his second game I don't have a problem with vote: Limetime
I agree but I'm to much of a Nature Valley bar to say anything!
E=MVP
Vote: Limetime
jokes, jokes, jokes, jokes
wants to know the case on him, presuming that there should be a case if people are voting as if he is having a hard time understanding that people are just genuinely finding him scummy.
wants to break game rules, thinks his lynch is a policy lynch (trying to de-legitimize the votes on him) and then again wants a case on him (here it is)
In summation:
- zero town play - RR has progressed enough in the games that I have seen him as town to have a modicum of towniness and town attributes. He has had zero here through his 30 posts.
- over zealous posting and joking - again I have seen enough from town RR where he doesn't do this and should know that if he is town doing this won't help anything, whereas if he is scum I don't know if he feels he can say anything else
- the OMGUS vote - like I said, looks like a oscillation in the behavior that caught him out before
- only serious post was a sheeping attempting to get a wagon started on someone that wasn't him
- posts that attempt to remove credibility from votes on him and the wagon forming on him
He is a pretty decent lynch candidate to me.
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So of the 50% that mafia is only in 2 neighborhoods, 50% of that is they are in the doctor neighborhood already. They would know who to kill already, right?
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My claim: I am a Vanilla Townie.
So am I
Why are you claiming this?
scummy scumslip is scummy vote: WW
I am a VT. But if you are not, you could have an easier time forgetting that every town player is.
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My claim: I am a Vanilla Townie.
So am I
Why are you claiming this?
scummy scumslip is scummy vote: WW
I am a VT. But if you are not, you could have an easier time forgetting that every town player is.
This seems like a stretch
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vote: gkrieg
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My claim: I am a Vanilla Townie.
So am I
Why are you claiming this?
scummy scumslip is scummy vote: WW
I am a VT. But if you are not, you could have an easier time forgetting that every town player is.
That makes zero sense.
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vote: gkrieg
is an IC?
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vote: gkrieg
??? :o ::) :-X >:( :o :o
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That makes zero sense.
how so?
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That makes zero sense.
how so?
What part of being a VT makes you think that all player are VTs?
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Oh, right. Never mind then.
unvote
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3 Mafia Goons
9 Vanilla Townies
1 Innocent Child
Either you are a VT a Mafia Goon or gkrieg
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vote: ww
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ya actually that last part was pretty bad from WW.
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well, I was first like 'mh VT :(' but then I had the neighborhood and that made me think 'maybe there are no powers' and then I read the setup.
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No, I mean in general Mafia. To follow Silver's argument, that a Mafia here is more likely to not know there are no PRs than a VT is.
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ya actually that last part was pretty bad from WW.
at first I thought he was asking,
"why are you claiming this, everyone knows everyone will claim VT"
But his response to ss is much more telling.
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No, I mean in general Mafia. To follow Silver's argument, that a Mafia here is more likely to not know there are no PRs than a VT is.
yes I think that
Oh, right. Never mind then.
unvote
mh I believe that this is unintentional, but I don't think it's a town slip; I forgot who the IC was as scum before.
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ya actually that last part was pretty bad from WW.
at first I thought he was asking,
"why are you claiming this, everyone knows everyone will claim VT"
But his response to ss is much more telling.
Telling of what? I'm explaining why Silver's argument is bad.
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mh I believe that this is unintentional, but I don't think it's a town slip; I forgot who the IC was as scum before.
totally agree...
ss is a super townie dude today.
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That makes zero sense.
how so?
What part of being a VT makes you think that all player are VTs?
To answer this, same as ss, I received a PM stating that I was a VT... and I was like? what how am I a VT aren't I in a neighborhood... and then went and looked at the setup. I think people that got VT abilities are more likely to think like that
and also not be wondering why people are being silly when claiming VT...
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well, I was first like 'mh VT :(' but then I had the neighborhood and that made me think 'maybe there are no powers' and then I read the setup.
Funnily enough, I did more or less the same but starting with "sweet, VT !".
PPE : Not sure why pointing out the obvious is townie.
WW, please tell us more.
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PPE : Not sure why pointing out the obvious is townie.
Hey if you can have a town read for disagreeing with me I can have a town read on ss for agreeing with me.
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I don't understand what is unclear.
In a vacuum, Mafia games have PRs. When I get VT I don't think it's more likely that there are not PRs. Rolling VT or scum here wouldn't affect this understanding.
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You're going with "didn't read the setup, I'm clearly obtown", then ?
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Yeah, I don't really buy it.
vote: WW
Such a shame ash isn't in this game.
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And getting VT doesn't motivate me to go read the setup. I would think a PR would prompt me to do so more. The neighborhood mechanics did make me need to go read the setup, but I didn't go do that; I made a mental note that I needed to do that. I posted in my QT (because a confirmation was required), then posted a thought based upon the info in my QT, then didn't get back to this until the game started.
PPEs
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You're going with "didn't read the setup, I'm clearly obtown", then ?
No, I'm going with I didn't read the setup because I was busy.
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This is very, very, very
very very very very very very
very very very
bad
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Yeah uh. I don't buy that anyone who confirmed in their neighborhood would be oblivious to what the setup is. Which is everyone, except gkrieg. So I think WW is lying here.
Vote: WW
gkrieg, have you reached a decision yet on neighborhood claiming? It may be relevant here.
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This is very, very, very
very very very very very very
very very very
bad
Is that a softclaim ?
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Cases are always necessary.
Good cases, not so much. As it is, I do like your [yuma'a] case
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Yeah uh. I don't buy that anyone who confirmed in their neighborhood would be oblivious to what the setup is. Which is everyone, except gkrieg. So I think WW is lying here.
Vote: WW
gkrieg, have you reached a decision yet on neighborhood claiming? It may be relevant here.
No neighborhood claiming.
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Re : L-1+intent claiming, I'm in favour of not claiming anything on D1, FWIW.
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Cases are always necessary.
Good cases, not so much. As it is, I do like your [yuma'a] case
Read faster e, entertaining things are happening.
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Also this:
Are you actually the ic or is it really WW?
It's really me.
I think tentatively that we want to claim neighborhoods. At least, I believe there is reason in my case.
How does someone who doesn't know the setup have an opinion on setup theory?
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Facts for future:
My firstpost in the neighborhood QT was at 10:20 PM (EST) on March 6. Both other neighbors posted (one message each) before me. I posted a thought in there and there was no response.
There was no mod announcement to say who was in the neighborhood.
Thread locked at 7:00 PM (EST) on March 7. I'm assuming all of these (including scum QT) closed around the same time. That's enough time for scum to share who was in my neighborhood if one of my neighbors is scum.
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Also this:
Are you actually the ic or is it really WW?
It's really me.
I think tentatively that we want to claim neighborhoods. At least, I believe there is reason in my case.
How does someone who doesn't know the setup have an opinion on setup theory?
Because of ADK's first post in the QT.
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Re : L-1+intent claiming, I'm in favour of not claiming anything on D1, FWIW.
Not even at L-1? I am pretty sure that that's a bad course of action.
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Which explains how the role works.
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Also this:
Are you actually the ic or is it really WW?
It's really me.
I think tentatively that we want to claim neighborhoods. At least, I believe there is reason in my case.
How does someone who doesn't know the setup have an opinion on setup theory?
Also note 'tentatively' and my next post:
I haven't looked at everything carefully, though, so not 100%.
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Facts for future:
My firstpost in the neighborhood QT was at 10:20 PM (EST) on March 6. Both other neighbors posted (one message each) before me. I posted a thought in there and there was no response.
There was no mod announcement to say who was in the neighborhood.
Thread locked at 7:00 PM (EST) on March 7. I'm assuming all of these (including scum QT) closed around the same time. That's enough time for scum to share who was in my neighborhood if one of my neighbors is scum.
Cool, and now you're leaking info about who is in your neighborhood even though there is no consensus about whether we want that info to be public? Vote: WW
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Facts for future:
My firstpost in the neighborhood QT was at 10:20 PM (EST) on March 6. Both other neighbors posted (one message each) before me. I posted a thought in there and there was no response.
There was no mod announcement to say who was in the neighborhood.
Thread locked at 7:00 PM (EST) on March 7. I'm assuming all of these (including scum QT) closed around the same time. That's enough time for scum to share who was in my neighborhood if one of my neighbors is scum.
Cool, and now you're leaking info about who is in your neighborhood even though there is no consensus about whether we want that info to be public? Vote: WW
What the fuck are you taliking about?
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Re : L-1+intent claiming, I'm in favour of not claiming anything on D1, FWIW.
Not even at L-1? I am pretty sure that that's a bad course of action.
What is there to be gained ? I don't think we should refrain from lynching people solely because they are in more useful QTs, if that's the idea. Other than that I like the possiblity that scum might not know which power is turned off. Claiming neighbours, maaaybe but I don't really see the point, on D1 anyway.
PPE : Yeah, thought taht for a second too, but ADK is the mod, remember ?
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He didn't leak any info
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Cases are always necessary.
Good cases, not so much. As it is, I do like your [yuma'a] case
Read faster e, entertaining things are happening.
I am trying to, but on my phone
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Re : L-1+intent claiming, I'm in favour of not claiming anything on D1, FWIW.
Not even at L-1? I am pretty sure that that's a bad course of action.
What is there to be gained ? I don't think we should refrain from lynching people solely because they are in more useful QTs, if that's the idea. Other than that I like the possiblity that scum might not know which power is turned off. Claiming neighbours, maaaybe but I don't really see the point, on D1 anyway.
PPE : Yeah, thought taht for a second too, but ADK is the mod, remember ?
I don't mean that. I mean the time stamps. Based on WW's claims about when he posted you can draw conclusions about the time zone of his neighbors. Also about their general activity level.
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Scum!ww is not an obvious lynch
Just sayin'
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He didn't leak any info
Well he did. We know that people in his neighborhood only posted once, which means it isn't faust or yuma or ss probably
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That's stretching it a bit faust, but fine.
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That's stretching it a bit faust, but fine.
Well, it's exactly the kind of thing I wanted to prevent with my first post.
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Facts for future:
My firstpost in the neighborhood QT was at 10:20 PM (EST) on March 6. Both other neighbors posted (one message each) before me. I posted a thought in there and there was no response.
There was no mod announcement to say who was in the neighborhood.
Thread locked at 7:00 PM (EST) on March 7. I'm assuming all of these (including scum QT) closed around the same time. That's enough time for scum to share who was in my neighborhood if one of my neighbors is scum.
Cool, and now you're leaking info about who is in your neighborhood even though there is no consensus about whether we want that info to be public? Vote: WW
I don't tlike this post from faust though
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Why not?
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I believe Yuma has been the worst so far.
Vote: Yuma
I agree with you about Faust's post initially, but I could see this from him as town too. Teproc's joining was a little questionable as well. Silver's is probably the most benign.
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Actually I'm not sure about Silver.
Going to throw out some predictions:
*One of my neighbors is scum
*Someone on my wagon is scum
Those may or may not be different someones.
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silver's is probably the most benign.
*looks up word*
ah that's so nice <3
PPE: :(
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More seriously, I don't think this slip is overwhelming evidence, but better than anything else that has happened so far.
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Just here to say hi and that I have 6 pages to go
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More seriously, I don't think this slip is overwhelming evidence, but better than anything else that has happened so far.
Someone said it ! Not the full word though, so you only get half-credit.
Anyway I agree, and also I'm in favor of a short day 1, so there.
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Well, meh. I am upset because people mess up. It's not a first from WW though. Doing some research... WW was scum in M63, where he actually called someone out (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13318.msg496322#msg496322) for not having read the setup. That's not much, but it makes me question whether scum!WW is the type to fabricate "haven't read the setup"-townslips.
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And I honestly don't like all the enthusiasm.
Vote: Teproc
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Well, meh. I am upset because people mess up. It's not a first from WW though. Doing some research... WW was scum in M63, where he actually called someone out (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13318.msg496322#msg496322) for not having read the setup. That's not much, but it makes me question whether scum!WW is the type to fabricate "haven't read the setup"-townslips.
I love a good fabricated slip, actually.
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Well, meh. I am upset because people mess up. It's not a first from WW though. Doing some research... WW was scum in M63, where he actually called someone out (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13318.msg496322#msg496322) for not having read the setup. That's not much, but it makes me question whether scum!WW is the type to fabricate "haven't read the setup"-townslips.
I love a good fabricated slip, actually.
Well, yeah. But what happened here wasn't a good slip.
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I believe Yuma has been the worst so far.
Vote: Yuma
I agree with you about Faust's post initially, but I could see this from him as town too. Teproc's joining was a little questionable as well. Silver's is probably the most benign.
THis is a vote on me followed by discussion of others. I fail to see the correlation.
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I think the case on WW is reasonable. Well actually I think the reasoning is a little off, because I don't think it's a scumslip; scum should be at least as likely to have read the set-up as town (but really come on guys, just everyone read the set-up; why are you playing if you don't want to know what you're playing). To me it looks like a fake slip. It could be real, but it looks fake because of when and how it happened. Like, there was already another joke VT claim, and WW had already posted stuff in thread (including an opinion about the set-up), and it's like, if you have to post in your neighborhood, I really feel like that should prompt you to go read the set-up. Just nothing about the "slip" really makes sense. The issue for me is I can't quite piece together why he would do it as scum either. It could have been something he was planning from the beginning, but it was such an ugly slip I feel like he would have known better. Still somewhat scummy overall, I think, just because the town narrative makes even less sense than the scum narrative.
But then there's this post that bothers me:
Facts for future:
My firstpost in the neighborhood QT was at 10:20 PM (EST) on March 6. Both other neighbors posted (one message each) before me. I posted a thought in there and there was no response.
There was no mod announcement to say who was in the neighborhood.
Thread locked at 7:00 PM (EST) on March 7. I'm assuming all of these (including scum QT) closed around the same time. That's enough time for scum to share who was in my neighborhood if one of my neighbors is scum.
Cool, and now you're leaking info about who is in your neighborhood even though there is no consensus about whether we want that info to be public? Vote: WW
What I saw here when I first read it is faust looking for more reasons to incriminate WW, like he needs to justify his vote on him even more, with flimsy reasons. But actually after thinking about it, I think this isn't faust trying to incriminate WW, because leaking info isn't something that scum needs to do here (they already would have shared everything they know with each other; and even if they didn't, doing it in thread seems like a completely unnecessary risk). I think he's just expressing his (completely understandable) frustration with WW for including unnecessary details that could potentially give scum some extra info.
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I believe Yuma has been the worst so far.
Vote: Yuma
I agree with you about Faust's post initially, but I could see this from him as town too. Teproc's joining was a little questionable as well. Silver's is probably the most benign.
THis is a vote on me followed by discussion of others. I fail to see the correlation.
They're correlated because those were all people voting for me.
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I believe Yuma has been the worst so far.
Vote: Yuma
I agree with you about Faust's post initially, but I could see this from him as town too. Teproc's joining was a little questionable as well. Silver's is probably the most benign.
THis is a vote on me followed by discussion of others. I fail to see the correlation.
They're correlated because those were all people voting for me.
Ah. Well I don't know if the others are necessarily scummy, I think it a bit presumptive to assume that scum must be on your wagon... But why am I the worst?
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I believe Yuma has been the worst so far.
Vote: Yuma
I agree with you about Faust's post initially, but I could see this from him as town too. Teproc's joining was a little questionable as well. Silver's is probably the most benign.
THis is a vote on me followed by discussion of others. I fail to see the correlation.
They're correlated because those were all people voting for me.
Ah. Well I don't know if the others are necessarily scummy, I think it a bit presumptive to assume that scum must be on your wagon... But why am I the worst?
For one, I have trouble seeing town!you going for a scumslip argument.
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For one, I have trouble seeing town!you going for a scumslip argument.
I normally don't. And when you initially made the first statement I didn't think anything of it. But it was your further explanations that made me think otherwise. It felt less like a slip which implies that you should know the information and more like it was an error where you didn't know or didn't have immediate access to information that you should know.
And do you see scum!me going for a scumslip argument?
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For one, I have trouble seeing town!you going for a scumslip argument.
I normally don't. And when you initially made the first statement I didn't think anything of it. But it was your further explanations that made me think otherwise. It felt less like a slip which implies that you should know the information and more like it was an error where you didn't know or didn't have immediate access to information that you should know.
And do you see scum!me going for a scumslip argument?
I see scum you going for "I don't think it was a scumslip but it was a scummy reaction to being called a scumslip".
I also don't see how "it was an error where you didn't know or didn't have immediate access to information that you should know." is alignment-indicative one way or the other.
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I think this is a case where I am going to have to do a quote by quote thing to get what I am thinking across, cause I feel like I am talking past you a bit... I'll get to it in a bit, got a couple things need to get to first...
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I think this is a case where I am going to have to do a quote by quote thing to get what I am thinking across, cause I feel like I am talking past you a bit... I'll get to it in a bit, got a couple things need to get to first...
Okay. I feel like also you may have misinterpreted what I initially said to Silverspawn, given that you posted that setup quote.
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FWIW, I have no idea how this could possibly be a "fake townslip". It's either a scumslip or nothing at all. So far I'm liking the odds.
I do think S_P is pretty scummy for having a long post after which I have very little idea where he stands on anything.
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FWIW, I have no idea how this could possibly be a "fake townslip". It's either a scumslip or nothing at all. So far I'm liking the odds.
I do think S_P is pretty scummy for having a long post after which I have very little idea where he stands on anything.
Well I think WW's "slip" is the biggest thing that's happened this game, and right now I'm leaning scummy on it.
When I started writing that post I thought that faust's post that I pointed out was scummy, but as I was thinking about it I ended up deciding it didn't really mean anything.
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FWIW, I have no idea how this could possibly be a "fake townslip". It's either a scumslip or nothing at all. So far I'm liking the odds.
I do think S_P is pretty scummy for having a long post after which I have very little idea where he stands on anything.
This is what you think? You previous post sounded like you believe it's a fake townslip:
You're going with "didn't read the setup, I'm clearly obtown", then ?
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There is no slip at all.
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FWIW, I have no idea how this could possibly be a "fake townslip". It's either a scumslip or nothing at all. So far I'm liking the odds.
I do think S_P is pretty scummy for having a long post after which I have very little idea where he stands on anything.
This is what you think? You previous post sounded like you believe it's a fake townslip:
You're going with "didn't read the setup, I'm clearly obtown", then ?
Well that's WW's defense obviously, that he didn't really register that everyone was claiming VT by default anyway because he didn't read the setup and didn't see that all townies (except gkrieg) were VTs. I don't think WW constructed anything : he either scumslipped or screwed up. That post was me making fun of WW because I think that defense is pretty horrible, hence my voting WW.
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FWIW, I have no idea how this could possibly be a "fake townslip". It's either a scumslip or nothing at all. So far I'm liking the odds.
I do think S_P is pretty scummy for having a long post after which I have very little idea where he stands on anything.
This is what you think? You previous post sounded like you believe it's a fake townslip:
You're going with "didn't read the setup, I'm clearly obtown", then ?
Well that's WW's defense obviously, that he didn't really register that everyone was claiming VT by default anyway because he didn't read the setup and didn't see that all townies (except gkrieg) were VTs. I don't think WW constructed anything : he either scumslipped or screwed up. That post was me making fun of WW because I think that defense is pretty horrible, hence my voting WW.
I did not make that defense. You created that defense out of nothing and then misappropriated it on me. And you're continuing to do so.
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Em, ok ? Isn't your explanation for not understanding the "I claim VT" joke that you didn't read the setup ?
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Em, ok ? Isn't your explanation for not understanding the "I claim VT" joke that you didn't read the setup ?
No, not that defense. The "didn't read the setup, I'm clearly obtown" thing.
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Right. That was supposed to be tongue-in-cheek, though I get how you could read that as misrepresenting you.
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I guess you thought, like faust, that I was saying you were trying to fake a townslip. That didn't even occur to me really, and I still don't see it as a real possiblity, so there you go.
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I didn't know (well, more accurately, didn't remember; I did look over the setup back when the game was first posted) that we had no PRs when Roadrunner claimed. I thought it was weird, but RR does this thing all the time. It then struck me as really weird when someone responded by claiming, so I pointed this out. Then I went back and checked and realized it was all a joke.
It's not a townslip or a scumslip (well, unless you're in the scum QT and know you talked about everyone being a QT, in which case it has to be a townslip, in which case it's moot because you already know I'm town), or even a screw up. It's a nothing, and these arguments are bad.
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*everyone being a VT
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Here's what it is. It's you not being aware we're all claiming VTs by default. Which could either be because
a) What you just said (not really into the game yet, basically)
b) You're scum so you didn't really think about that
Now it all comes down to how likely we think a is versus b. I don't think a is incredibly likely, because we have neighborhoods and everyone posted in them and because of that, everyone should more or less be in the game already. That's why we didn't have RVS this game (well, partially because of that). There's no need for it, the game started before the day did. That's why a) doesn't seem incredibly likely to me. Combine that with your theory post that shows you had done some thinking about the setup, and I buy it even less.
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Here's what it is. It's you not being aware we're all claiming VTs by default. Which could either be because
a) What you just said (not really into the game yet, basically)
b) You're scum so you didn't really think about that
Now it all comes down to how likely we think a is versus b. I don't think a is incredibly likely, because we have neighborhoods and everyone posted in them and because of that, everyone should more or less be in the game already. That's why we didn't have RVS this game (well, partially because of that). There's no need for it, the game started before the day did. That's why a) doesn't seem incredibly likely to me. Combine that with your theory post that shows you had done some thinking about the setup, and I buy it even less.
Why would I not think about that any more as scum than town?
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Because you didn't get a VT PM, you didn't wonder what PR you could have rolled (and realized there was none), you didn't think about how you were going to have to play (because playing VT and playing town PR isn't the same, and playing VT in a game where everyone is a VT is also something else). If you're scum, you thought about neighborhoods, wether or not a claim was beneficial to you and wether or not you should push for it regardless etc.
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Ok:
Here is what I think happened. But first some background.
Within the rules of the game there are these statements made by the mod:
3 Mafia Goons
9 Vanilla Townies
1 Innocent Child
Sample PMs:
Welcome, [player name], to Insomnia Mafia! You are a Vanilla Townie! You win when all Mafia players have been eliminated.
You are part of the [Neighborhood Link]. You may post freely there during the Night and vote on its power during the Day. Please post there at least once a Night, including Night 0.
Welcome, [player name], to Insomnia Mafia! You are an Innocent Child. You win when all Mafia playes have been eliminated. You will be mod-confirmed as town at the beginning of day one.
Welcome, [player name], to Insomnia Mafia! You are a Mafia Goon! You win when Mafia controls the Town, or nothing can happen to prevent that. You may talk with your partners [scum QT link]. This QT will be open Night and Day.
You are part of the [Neighborhood Link]. You may post freely there during the Night and vote on its power during the Day. Please post there at least once a Night, including Night 0.
These show that there are certainly only VTs, Mafia and IC within the game. It also shows what de facto VTs (such as myself) received in their PMs. But as is known, setup information is often glossed over by players of all types from when they sign up to even when they are given their PM for various reasons.
Ok now on to what actually happened:
RR claims:
Followed by Joseph:
From there WW responds at a later juncture with a statement that I initially read this response to be a: "Why are you claiming this. It is pointless. Everyone knows that all players will claim VT."
But afterward ss states this (along with all the other quotes for context):
My claim: I am a Vanilla Townie.
So am I
Why are you claiming this?
scummy scumslip is scummy vote: WW
I am a VT. But if you are not, you could have an easier time forgetting that every town player is.
From which ss states that VTs should be better able to know that all other town players are VTs. This is implied that when a player receives a VT role they will do what apparently both ss and I did, wonder how they could be VTs when they were also part of a neighborhood. Mafia players don't need to worry about whether or not they are given VT roles and not neighbors because they are VTs.
WW responds with this:
That makes zero sense.
how so?
What part of being a VT makes you think that all player are VTs?
And this to me is the big crux. He asks why being a VT makes you think that all other players are VTs. Aside from the given setup and the information provided above (and provided to WW after this post), it seems to indicate from WW that he isn't, or might not be a VT--when in fact he must be if he is town.
In the last post WW doesn't seem to know that he should be claiming VT if he is town. That seems like something that mafia would do far and away.
PPE: lost of posts that seem to be talking about the same thing I am. But I bet mine looks prettier. You don't necessarily need to respond to my post individually WW if the other posts are all saying the same things...
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okay, this exchange makes me lean much more scum on WW. I usually always get town vibes if people are defending themselves in situations like these; here it feels neutral.
PEE big post from yuma
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Because you didn't get a VT PM, you didn't wonder what PR you could have rolled (and realized there was none), you didn't think about how you were going to have to play (because playing VT and playing town PR isn't the same, and playing VT in a game where everyone is a VT is also something else). If you're scum, you thought about neighborhoods, wether or not a claim was beneficial to you and wether or not you should push for it regardless etc.
How often do you ever wonder what PR you could have rolled when you get a VT PM?
and playing VT in a game where everyone is a VT is also something else
This is begging the question.
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Here's what it is. It's you not being aware we're all claiming VTs by default. Which could either be because
a) What you just said (not really into the game yet, basically)
b) You're scum so you didn't really think about that
Now it all comes down to how likely we think a is versus b. I don't think a is incredibly likely, because we have neighborhoods and everyone posted in them and because of that, everyone should more or less be in the game already. That's why we didn't have RVS this game (well, partially because of that). There's no need for it, the game started before the day did. That's why a) doesn't seem incredibly likely to me. Combine that with your theory post that shows you had done some thinking about the setup, and I buy it even less.
Honestly I don't see b at all. Everyone already should be at least a little invested in the game N0 in the neighborhoods, and scum is probably even more so. So just based on that, really no one should be making a slip like that, but if they do, it should be more likely town. The thing is, it doesn't make sense coming from town in the context that WW posted it in either, for the reasons you mentioned.
That's why I'm left thinking it's fake. You keep dismissing that possibility, and I guess I understand why you think it's also unlikely, it's just, it seems the least unlikely out of the three possibilities to me. Really I don't think there's a clean explanation for what happened no matter how you look at it.
PPE 5
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vote: WW
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Here's what it is. It's you not being aware we're all claiming VTs by default. Which could either be because
a) What you just said (not really into the game yet, basically)
b) You're scum so you didn't really think about that
Now it all comes down to how likely we think a is versus b. I don't think a is incredibly likely, because we have neighborhoods and everyone posted in them and because of that, everyone should more or less be in the game already. That's why we didn't have RVS this game (well, partially because of that). There's no need for it, the game started before the day did. That's why a) doesn't seem incredibly likely to me. Combine that with your theory post that shows you had done some thinking about the setup, and I buy it even less.
Honestly I don't see b at all. Everyone already should be at least a little invested in the game N0 in the neighborhoods, and scum is probably even more so. So just based on that, really no one should be making a slip like that, but if they do, it should be more likely town. The thing is, it doesn't make sense coming from town in the context that WW posted it in either, for the reasons you mentioned.
That's why I'm left thinking it's fake. You keep dismissing that possibility, and I guess I understand why you think it's also unlikely, it's just, it seems the least unlikely out of the three possibilities to me. Really I don't think there's a clean explanation for what happened no matter how you look at it.
PPE 5
if It were fake, why wouldn't town!WW have admitted that already?
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PPE: lost of posts that seem to be talking about the same thing I am. But I bet mine looks prettier.
True.
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PEE big post from yuma
That's offensive
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Here's what it is. It's you not being aware we're all claiming VTs by default. Which could either be because
a) What you just said (not really into the game yet, basically)
b) You're scum so you didn't really think about that
Now it all comes down to how likely we think a is versus b. I don't think a is incredibly likely, because we have neighborhoods and everyone posted in them and because of that, everyone should more or less be in the game already. That's why we didn't have RVS this game (well, partially because of that). There's no need for it, the game started before the day did. That's why a) doesn't seem incredibly likely to me. Combine that with your theory post that shows you had done some thinking about the setup, and I buy it even less.
Honestly I don't see b at all. Everyone already should be at least a little invested in the game N0 in the neighborhoods, and scum is probably even more so. So just based on that, really no one should be making a slip like that, but if they do, it should be more likely town. The thing is, it doesn't make sense coming from town in the context that WW posted it in either, for the reasons you mentioned.
That's why I'm left thinking it's fake. You keep dismissing that possibility, and I guess I understand why you think it's also unlikely, it's just, it seems the least unlikely out of the three possibilities to me. Really I don't think there's a clean explanation for what happened no matter how you look at it.
PPE 5
if It were fake, why wouldn't town!WW have admitted that already?
Because faking a slip is scummy, is the assumption I'm making. Well really I guess I'm assuming you only make a fake slip as scum, maybe that's not actually true in general.
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Here's what it is. It's you not being aware we're all claiming VTs by default. Which could either be because
a) What you just said (not really into the game yet, basically)
b) You're scum so you didn't really think about that
Now it all comes down to how likely we think a is versus b. I don't think a is incredibly likely, because we have neighborhoods and everyone posted in them and because of that, everyone should more or less be in the game already. That's why we didn't have RVS this game (well, partially because of that). There's no need for it, the game started before the day did. That's why a) doesn't seem incredibly likely to me. Combine that with your theory post that shows you had done some thinking about the setup, and I buy it even less.
Honestly I don't see b at all. Everyone already should be at least a little invested in the game N0 in the neighborhoods, and scum is probably even more so. So just based on that, really no one should be making a slip like that, but if they do, it should be more likely town. The thing is, it doesn't make sense coming from town in the context that WW posted it in either, for the reasons you mentioned.
That's why I'm left thinking it's fake. You keep dismissing that possibility, and I guess I understand why you think it's also unlikely, it's just, it seems the least unlikely out of the three possibilities to me. Really I don't think there's a clean explanation for what happened no matter how you look at it.
PPE 5
I'm dismissing it because it makes no sense to make that play from scumWW's perspective. Any setup mistake isn't a townslip (case in point : my vote on gkrieg earlier which isn't indicative of anything other than "I forgot which player rolled IC"). Why would WW think forgetting all townies are VTs would be taken as a townslip ?
The other scenarios make more sense because they feature WW inadvertently making a mistake. That's more likely than him consciously making a bad strategic choice.
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PEE big post from yuma
That's offensive
????????????????????????
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From which ss states that VTs should be better able to know that all other town players are VTs. This is implied that when a player receives a VT role they will do what apparently both ss and I did, wonder how they could be VTs when they were also part of a neighborhood. Mafia players don't need to worry about whether or not they are given VT roles and not neighbors because they are VTs.
The whole premise is flawed from the first place, is my point. You get a PM saying "Hey, you're a VT. Hey, here is a neighborhood QT link. Check in on it." No where are you automatically more motivated to go "hey, what PRs are in this game?" than if you had instead received a PM saying you're a PR, or even if you roll Mafia. The whole argument is bunk from the beginning.
Or are you wondering why I wasn't surprised I'm not a neighbor? I remembered that this game had some neighborhood component to it. I didn't remember that there weren't any proper PRs.
And this to me is the big crux. He asks why being a VT makes you think that all other players are VTs. Aside from the given setup and the information provided above (and provided to WW after this post), it seems to indicate from WW that he isn't, or might not be a VT--when in fact he must be if he is town.
In the last post WW doesn't seem to know that he should be claiming VT if he is town. That seems like something that mafia would do far and away.
I'm explaining why Silverspawn's argument doesn't make sense. Getting a VT PM does not a priori make you more likely to make assumptions or go look at what PRs are available in the game than getting a Mafia PM.
I wasn't asking why being a VT makes you think all other players are VTs *IN THIS GAME*. That much has already become clear by this point. Silverspawn's premise is that me being Mafia makes me more likely to not know/forget that everyone is a VT than me being a VT, and this is just completely and utterly false. That was what I was saying with my response.
PPE:s
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Hi
I DID NOT MAKE ANY MISTAKES.
I just can't always keep every bit of knowledge in my head.
Jesus.
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PEE big post from yuma
That's offensive
????????????????????????
It was a joke because you wrote PEE instead of PPE
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It was a joke because you wrote PEE instead of PPE
Oh. what does PEE mean?
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I feel like limetime has had an incredibly small amount of questions for a newbie
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I feel like limetime has had an incredibly small amount of questions for a newbie
hm.
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The problem with WW's defense is that he isn't going like
This is what happened:
Instead he's going
This is why I don't think that argument makes sense
I expect town to do the former.
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The problem with WW's defense is that he isn't going like
This is what happened:
Instead he's going
This is why I don't think that argument makes sense
I expect town to do the former.
That's fair, if wrong in this case. But also, the argument doesn't make sense.
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I expect WW to do the later. As town or scum
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I still like the Yuma vote. I think more people should like it, too.
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Here's what it is. It's you not being aware we're all claiming VTs by default. Which could either be because
a) What you just said (not really into the game yet, basically)
b) You're scum so you didn't really think about that
Now it all comes down to how likely we think a is versus b. I don't think a is incredibly likely, because we have neighborhoods and everyone posted in them and because of that, everyone should more or less be in the game already. That's why we didn't have RVS this game (well, partially because of that). There's no need for it, the game started before the day did. That's why a) doesn't seem incredibly likely to me. Combine that with your theory post that shows you had done some thinking about the setup, and I buy it even less.
Honestly I don't see b at all. Everyone already should be at least a little invested in the game N0 in the neighborhoods, and scum is probably even more so. So just based on that, really no one should be making a slip like that, but if they do, it should be more likely town. The thing is, it doesn't make sense coming from town in the context that WW posted it in either, for the reasons you mentioned.
That's why I'm left thinking it's fake. You keep dismissing that possibility, and I guess I understand why you think it's also unlikely, it's just, it seems the least unlikely out of the three possibilities to me. Really I don't think there's a clean explanation for what happened no matter how you look at it.
PPE 5
I'm dismissing it because it makes no sense to make that play from scumWW's perspective. Any setup mistake isn't a townslip (case in point : my vote on gkrieg earlier which isn't indicative of anything other than "I forgot which player rolled IC"). Why would WW think forgetting all townies are VTs would be taken as a townslip ?
The other scenarios make more sense because they feature WW inadvertently making a mistake. That's more likely than him consciously making a bad strategic choice.
You're only saying this because you've been assuming this whole time that the slip is more likely to come from scum than from town (independently of the context). I'm saying scum wants to fake it because it's more likely to come from town than scum. But the particular circumstances make it unlikely to have been a legit slip in the first place, from either town or scum. So it's more likely to have been faked, which implies it came from scum.
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Here's what it is. It's you not being aware we're all claiming VTs by default. Which could either be because
a) What you just said (not really into the game yet, basically)
b) You're scum so you didn't really think about that
Now it all comes down to how likely we think a is versus b. I don't think a is incredibly likely, because we have neighborhoods and everyone posted in them and because of that, everyone should more or less be in the game already. That's why we didn't have RVS this game (well, partially because of that). There's no need for it, the game started before the day did. That's why a) doesn't seem incredibly likely to me. Combine that with your theory post that shows you had done some thinking about the setup, and I buy it even less.
I don't buy that case like at all. Scum talks way more about the setup than town does in their QT.
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I still like the Yuma vote. I think more people should like it, too.
Eh. How do you feel about Teproc? Out of the two, he comes across as more disingenuous to me.
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Facts for future:
My firstpost in the neighborhood QT was at 10:20 PM (EST) on March 6. Both other neighbors posted (one message each) before me. I posted a thought in there and there was no response.
There was no mod announcement to say who was in the neighborhood.
Thread locked at 7:00 PM (EST) on March 7. I'm assuming all of these (including scum QT) closed around the same time. That's enough time for scum to share who was in my neighborhood if one of my neighbors is scum.
So, readin through I noticed that WW either had not noticed that scum has a daychat or cleverly planted fake townslip
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Facts for future:
My firstpost in the neighborhood QT was at 10:20 PM (EST) on March 6. Both other neighbors posted (one message each) before me. I posted a thought in there and there was no response.
There was no mod announcement to say who was in the neighborhood.
Thread locked at 7:00 PM (EST) on March 7. I'm assuming all of these (including scum QT) closed around the same time. That's enough time for scum to share who was in my neighborhood if one of my neighbors is scum.
So, readin through I noticed that WW either had not noticed that scum has a daychat or cleverly planted fake townslip
Well now. That is what a proper townslip (whether fake or real) looks like.
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Facts for future:
My firstpost in the neighborhood QT was at 10:20 PM (EST) on March 6. Both other neighbors posted (one message each) before me. I posted a thought in there and there was no response.
There was no mod announcement to say who was in the neighborhood.
Thread locked at 7:00 PM (EST) on March 7. I'm assuming all of these (including scum QT) closed around the same time. That's enough time for scum to share who was in my neighborhood if one of my neighbors is scum.
So, readin through I noticed that WW either had not noticed that scum has a daychat or cleverly planted fake townslip
that is actually really quite good.
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the only way it could be fake is if ADK posted into the Mafia QT that he was closing all the other QTs... or if WW put 2+2 together with the start of day1 at 7:02...
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the only way it could be fake is if ADK posted into the Mafia QT that he was closing all the other QTs... or if WW put 2+2 together with the start of day1 at 7:02...
What? Scum is in the other QTs as well... they know when the neighborhoods close. Is this supposed to be some townslipfest?
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the only way it could be fake is if ADK posted into the Mafia QT that he was closing all the other QTs... or if WW put 2+2 together with the start of day1 at 7:02...
What? Scum is in the other QTs as well... they know when the neighborhoods close. Is this supposed to be some townslipfest?
Oh duh...
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Oh... I completely thought a different part of WW's/EgorK's post was the townslip... I didn't even read to the daytalk part, which makes sense cause that is what EgorK was talking about...
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Facts for future:
My firstpost in the neighborhood QT was at 10:20 PM (EST) on March 6. Both other neighbors posted (one message each) before me. I posted a thought in there and there was no response.
There was no mod announcement to say who was in the neighborhood.
Thread locked at 7:00 PM (EST) on March 7. I'm assuming all of these (including scum QT) closed around the same time. That's enough time for scum to share who was in my neighborhood if one of my neighbors is scum.
So, readin through I noticed that WW either had not noticed that scum has a daychat or cleverly planted fake townslip
Damn. I wish that was fake, because that would be impressive.
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^WW is just arriving to his QT
"Hey guys! No idea we had day talk!"
Haha... jk... maybe?
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I still like the Yuma vote. I think more people should like it, too.
Eh. How do you feel about Teproc? Out of the two, he comes across as more disingenuous to me.
I don't know, I could see him believing what he's saying. I'd say it's like Yuma > Teproc > Faust > Silver.
Not sure yet where e (playing defense) and Scott (commenting but not voting) come in.
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I think WW is pretty solidly town at this point. Do not want to lynch.
I still want to discuss neighborhood claiming at some point... but I'm fine simply leaving the decision up to gkrieg.
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I'd say it's like Yuma > Teproc > Faust > Silver.
For me it's more like Teproc > silver > yuma (> faust obviously). I don't really want to switch my vote to the least favorite option. Also all of these are players that I often read as scum when they're town.
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I think WW is pretty solidly town at this point. Do not want to lynch.
I still want to discuss neighborhood claiming at some point... but I'm fine simply leaving the decision up to gkrieg.
I think we can just leave it alone for a bit. I'll think about it more and get back to you.
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back to vote: rr
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I still like the Yuma vote. I think more people should like it, too.
Eh. How do you feel about Teproc? Out of the two, he comes across as more disingenuous to me.
I don't know, I could see him believing what he's saying. I'd say it's like Yuma > Teproc > Faust > Silver.
Not sure yet where e (playing defense) and Scott (commenting but not voting) come in.
Well I would have voted but it seemed like there were a lot of people voting for you and I was too lazy to check the vote count.
But anyway, the daychat thing makes you look pretty solidly towny to me now. I mean I suppose it's possible that you did some crazy mastermind nested fake slip thing, but if that's the case, I'm pretty sure we just lose and you get MVP.
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I think WW is pretty solidly town at this point. Do not want to lynch.
I still want to discuss neighborhood claiming at some point... but I'm fine simply leaving the decision up to gkrieg.
I think we can just leave it alone for a bit. I'll think about it more and get back to you.
That's fine. I just wanted to make sure that it's still on the table.
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I still like the Yuma vote. I think more people should like it, too.
Eh. How do you feel about Teproc? Out of the two, he comes across as more disingenuous to me.
I don't know, I could see him believing what he's saying. I'd say it's like Yuma > Teproc > Faust > Silver.
Not sure yet where e (playing defense) and Scott (commenting but not voting) come in.
Well I would have voted but it seemed like there were a lot of people voting for you and I was too lazy to check the vote count.
But anyway, the daychat thing makes you look pretty solidly towny to me now. I mean I suppose it's possible that you did some crazy mastermind nested fake slip thing, but if that's the case, I'm pretty sure we just lose and you get MVP.
I wouldn't give up that easily. I think WW is smart enough to leave in a townslip like the one above. Especially with daychat
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huh. While sleeping you guys did like 3 pages...
So I've caught up and I guess I'll do a mini post of what I thought.
So basically WW does his slip thing. I first think nothing of it.
Then people start making points to it and I'm like hey this is ok I could do a day 1 lynch for this.
Then people keep making even more points for it and I'm like dang did we catch day 1 scum here?
And then egork comes out of nowhere and makes me think oh... So unless WW is a god of slipping I think hes town. And I think egork is town as well then because if WW is town I think scum!egork would or kept quiet.
If WW flips scum I'd have to revisit that but right now i think both are town.
PPE:7
calm down you guys (I've updated this PPE thing like 3 times...)
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I think WW is pretty solidly town at this point. Do not want to lynch.
I still want to discuss neighborhood claiming at some point... but I'm fine simply leaving the decision up to gkrieg.
I think we can just leave it alone for a bit. I'll think about it more and get back to you.
That's fine. I just wanted to make sure that it's still on the table.
I agree. I just think we are having better conversation right now without talking about it.
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I still like the Yuma vote. I think more people should like it, too.
Eh. How do you feel about Teproc? Out of the two, he comes across as more disingenuous to me.
I don't know, I could see him believing what he's saying. I'd say it's like Yuma > Teproc > Faust > Silver.
Not sure yet where e (playing defense) and Scott (commenting but not voting) come in.
Well I would have voted but it seemed like there were a lot of people voting for you and I was too lazy to check the vote count.
But anyway, the daychat thing makes you look pretty solidly towny to me now. I mean I suppose it's possible that you did some crazy mastermind nested fake slip thing, but if that's the case, I'm pretty sure we just lose and you get MVP.
Vote: scott seems alright. Giving too much credit for a town slip is a scum tell.
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huh I have no idea where the votes are at.
request a vote count I guess
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huh. While sleeping you guys did like 3 pages...
So I've caught up and I guess I'll do a mini post of what I thought.
So basically WW does his slip thing. I first think nothing of it.
Then people start making points to it and I'm like hey this is ok I could do a day 1 lynch for this.
Then people keep making even more points for it and I'm like dang did we catch day 1 scum here?
And then egork comes out of nowhere and makes me think oh... So unless WW is a god of slipping I think hes town. And I think egork is town as well then because if WW is town I think scum!egork would or kept quiet.
If WW flips scum I'd have to revisit that but right now i think both are town.
PPE:7
calm down you guys (I've updated this PPE thing like 3 times...)
This reads mildly townie, or maybe I'm just biased because I agree.
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huh I have no idea where the votes are at.
request a vote count I guess
I think rr lost one or two votes but I am to lazy to check
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Really? I mean, the thing is, he worked it into his defense of how his other thing wasn't a fake town slip. Like, I get that either of those isn't the most amazing trick by themselves, but I feel like putting them together would take a lot of really clever planning.
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Really? I mean, the thing is, he worked it into his defense of how his other thing wasn't a fake town slip. Like, I get that either of those isn't the most amazing trick by themselves, but I feel like putting them together would take a lot of really clever planning.
Certainly good enough for a D1 pass. Certainly not good enough for "I'll just consider you an IC for the rest of the game".
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Anyway, I think vote: Teproc is best for now. The whole thing looks to me like he's really trying to catch someone for something, trying to get a big case rolling, but the actual arguments he makes, aside from not really making sense, just sound...fake.
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Well, I want to sleep on what I just finished reading. At first I thout that how that slip was construed was scummy (as he had to use parenthes to include scum QT), but rereading post it makes more sense now
Also I think we should of course discuss setup/general things, but if there is any decision involved I would trust gkrieg calling shots. Well, I would trust myself as well, but not town as whole as it is tainted
Ppe 6
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ADK isn't online and I don't know where we stand either, so I'll do one
RR: gkrieg, limetime, yuma
limetime: 2.7, rr
ww: ss, teproc
yuma: ww
scott: faust
teproc: scott
I think this is where we are at
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oh lulz scum has daychat.
well in that case vote: Limetime
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ADK isn't online and I don't know where we stand either, so I'll do one
RR: gkrieg, limetime, yuma
limetime: 2.7, rr
ww: ss, teproc
yuma: ww
scott: faust
teproc: scott
I think this is where we are at
ah thanks.
Vote: RR
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Really? I mean, the thing is, he worked it into his defense of how his other thing wasn't a fake town slip. Like, I get that either of those isn't the most amazing trick by themselves, but I feel like putting them together would take a lot of really clever planning.
Certainly good enough for a D1 pass. Certainly not good enough for "I'll just consider you an IC for the rest of the game".
No, I mean obviously it's an overstatement. I just meant leave him alone for a while.
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Is this supposed to be some townslipfest?
So far (by my count) we have silverspawn, myself, WW, yuma...along with gkrieg as the real IC we should have no problem winning
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oh lulz scum has daychat.
well in that case vote: Limetime
Can you explain how these two things are related?
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Really? I mean, the thing is, he worked it into his defense of how his other thing wasn't a fake town slip. Like, I get that either of those isn't the most amazing trick by themselves, but I feel like putting them together would take a lot of really clever planning.
Certainly good enough for a D1 pass. Certainly not good enough for "I'll just consider you an IC for the rest of the game".
No, I mean obviously it's an overstatement. I just meant leave him alone for a while.
It is by the way definitely more likely to construct a fake like that if scum has daychat.
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RR has been remarkably absent these last couple of hours.
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RR has been remarkably absent these last couple of hours.
Yep? What do you need?
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RR has been remarkably absent these last couple of hours.
Yep? What do you need?
Your thoughts on what happened.
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oh lulz scum has daychat.
well in that case vote: Limetime
Can you explain how these two things are related?
that's easy; WW isn't scum, so it's someone else. Limetime is the first choice that comes to mind.
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oh lulz scum has daychat.
well in that case vote: Limetime
Can you explain how these two things are related?
that's easy; WW isn't scum, so it's someone else. Limetime is the first choice that comes to mind.
And WW isn't town because of the townslip, or something else?
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oh lulz scum has daychat.
well in that case vote: Limetime
Can you explain how these two things are related?
that's easy; WW isn't scum, so it's someone else. Limetime is the first choice that comes to mind.
And WW isn't scum because of the townslip, or something else?
because of the slip.
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RR has been remarkably absent these last couple of hours.
Yep? What do you need?
Your thoughts on what happened.
Oh yeah: lynch Linetime first, ask questions later.
And stop joking around.
And the only person with a townslip is WW.
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sigh...
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oh lulz scum has daychat.
well in that case vote: Limetime
Can you explain how these two things are related?
that's easy; WW isn't scum, so it's someone else. Limetime is the first choice that comes to mind.
So I read more in your words then there are (like he plays first time here, but has no questions, can he ask them in scum QT?)
Actually vote: limetime. Limetime, can you answer, do you have any experience playing forum mafia?
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RR has been remarkably absent these last couple of hours.
Yep? What do you need?
Your thoughts on what happened.
Oh yeah: lynch Linetime first, ask questions later.
And stop joking around.
And the only person with a townslip is WW.
Those are your thoughts on everything that happened?
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And the only person with a townslip is WW.
False
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oh lulz scum has daychat.
well in that case vote: Limetime
Can you explain how these two things are related?
that's easy; WW isn't scum, so it's someone else. Limetime is the first choice that comes to mind.
So I read more in your words then there are (like he plays first time here, but has no questions, can he ask them in scum QT?)
Actually vote: limetime. Limetime, can you answer, do you have any experience playing forum mafia?
If Limetime started asking question in the mafia QT, his partners would just tell him to post them in the main thread. I don't really see any reason to believe this is scum!Limetime.
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oh lulz scum has daychat.
well in that case vote: Limetime
Can you explain how these two things are related?
that's easy; WW isn't scum, so it's someone else. Limetime is the first choice that comes to mind.
And WW isn't scum because of the townslip, or something else?
because of the slip.
I agree, that's got to be one of the biggest townslips I've seen.
WW seems town right now.
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Lol it's time for me to get almost lynched. Is the scummiest thing I've done is not post very much. I am doing that because I don't find much reason to post. You guys have a lot more experience then me. Yes I did notice the Townslip.
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Vote Count 1.2
Roadrunner7671 (4): gkrieg13, Limetime, yuma, Hydrad
Limetime (4): 2.71828, Roadrunner7671, silverspawn, EgorK
Witherweaver (1): Teproc
yuma (1): Witherweaver
scott_pilgrim (1): faust
Teproc (1):scott_pilgrim
Not Voting (1): Joseph2302
With 13 players alive, it takes 7 to lynch. Day One will end Thursday, March 17th, 7 pm. forum time.
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Lol it's time for me to get almost lynched. Is the scummiest thing I've done is not post very much. I am doing that because I don't find much reason to post. You guys have a lot more experience then me. Yes I did notice the Townslip.
Just make bad jokes!
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Lol it's time for me to get almost lynched. Is the scummiest thing I've done is not post very much. I am doing that because I don't find much reason to post. You guys have a lot more experience then me. Yes I did notice the Townslip.
Just make bad jokes!
No. Don't do that.
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I know people disagree with me but I personally find newbie lynches Day1 to be in poor taste unless they are particularly compelling. In addition they tend to be more random as we don't have any prior meta to base play off, additional days tend to be useful in more accurately assessing them.
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I know people disagree with me but I personally find newbie lynches Day1 to be in poor taste unless they are particularly compelling. In addition they tend to be more random as we don't have any prior meta to base play off, additional days tend to be useful in more accurately assessing them.
I pretty much agree with you.
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who said anything about lynching Limetime? Oh yeah....me....
Anyway, while lynching new players is not that kosher, voting for them to get some reactions is. L-3 is not that threatening.
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/tag
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Lol it's time for me to get almost lynched. Is the scummiest thing I've done is not post very much. I am doing that because I don't find much reason to post. You guys have a lot more experience then me. Yes I did notice the Townslip.
But yeah, this does not sound like someone being coached through the game by his scum buddies. Who have daychat.
unvote
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I don't see a reason to lynch limetime.
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Really? I mean, the thing is, he worked it into his defense of how his other thing wasn't a fake town slip. Like, I get that either of those isn't the most amazing trick by themselves, but I feel like putting them together would take a lot of really clever planning.
Certainly good enough for a D1 pass. Certainly not good enough for "I'll just consider you an IC for the rest of the game".
No, I mean obviously it's an overstatement. I just meant leave him alone for a while.
It is by the way definitely more likely to construct a fake like that if scum has daychat.
That's a good point.
I guess I was thinking of it more like both slips would have had to have been constructed in advance, but in reality I guess it would be like, he made one slip, then kind of just worked another slip in there. Anyway I still think it's pretty unlikely.
Lol it's time for me to get almost lynched. Is the scummiest thing I've done is not post very much. I am doing that because I don't find much reason to post. You guys have a lot more experience then me. Yes I did notice the Townslip.
Just make bad jokes!
No. Don't do that.
Yeah, make good jokes instead!
I know people disagree with me but I personally find newbie lynches Day1 to be in poor taste unless they are particularly compelling. In addition they tend to be more random as we don't have any prior meta to base play off, additional days tend to be useful in more accurately assessing them.
Yeah, I think that last point is worth emphasizing. Newbies are a lot more likely to be obv!town or obv!scum later in the game, which makes lynching them early usually bad.
Anyway, what is the actual case on Limetime? I don't actually remember like anything from him so far.
And RR looks like the other major wagon. Isn't this pretty much what he's always like? Has he ever been scum? I feel like he has, but don't remember what he's like as scum (or if he's noticeably different at all).
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Harry Potter Mafia was where I made a lot of mistakes as new scum.
X-Shots was better, but I still didn't win.
I think I joke less when I'm scum? I don't think I'm scum here.
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I don't think I'm scum here.
Well, it's a good thing you're confident about this.
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Harry Potter Mafia was where I made a lot of mistakes as new scum.
X-Shots was better, but I still didn't win.
I think I joke less when I'm scum? I don't think I'm scum here.
How many QTs are you in? If it's 2, then you're scum.
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oh lulz scum has daychat.
well in that case vote: Limetime
Can you explain how these two things are related?
that's easy; WW isn't scum, so it's someone else. Limetime is the first choice that comes to mind.
So I read more in your words then there are (like he plays first time here, but has no questions, can he ask them in scum QT?)
Actually vote: limetime. Limetime, can you answer, do you have any experience playing forum mafia?
If Limetime started asking question in the mafia QT, his partners would just tell him to post them in the main thread. I don't really see any reason to believe this is scum!Limetime.
Or it was too late to do that. Anyway, I'd wait for answer on my question
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vote: S_P
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So, noone has more to say about this?
I find the whole backing off of the WW wagon after the "slip" highly suspect. Like if WW was your top scum read before it happened, the slip just isn't enough to justify a full 180° turn. And even if it was, you know, people have confirmation bias, and I expected at least some to maintain scum!WW as an option.
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You're forgetting all of this happened in the space of, what, 24 hours ?
S_P's reaction to it all is easily the scummiest thing now. First he's egging on but not really taking a stance (or taking a very convenient stance that doesn't involve commiting himself), which make a lot of sense for scum if WW is town. And really it makes a lot of sense for scum if WW is scum too, now that I think about it.
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You're forgetting all of this happened in the space of, what, 24 hours ?
S_P's reaction to it all is easily the scummiest thing now. First he's egging on but not really taking a stance (or taking a very convenient stance that doesn't involve commiting himself), which make a lot of sense for scum if WW is town. And really it makes a lot of sense for scum if WW is scum too, now that I think about it.
that's true, I just have an inner resistance to vote for SP after he just came back from a hiatus. We don't want to demoralize him from mafia :/
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It always scares me when faust and Teproc and ss agree.
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I don't agree with faust's point at all. I think the slip is massive evidence for day 1.
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Vote: Scott Pilgrim
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It always scares me when faust and Teproc and ss agree.
I don't agree with faust's point at all. I think the slip is massive evidence for day 1.
That was actually in PPE
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It always scares me when faust and Teproc and ss agree.
I don't think faust really agrees with me if that makes you feel better. Isn't he voting for me ?
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well, I do agree with you. vote: SP
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Where does that put him votes-wise?
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Unofficial Vote Count:
Limetime (2): Roadrunner7671, Egork
Teproc (1): scott_pilgrim
Roadrunner7671 (4): gkrieg13, Limetime, yuma, Hydrad
scott_pilgrim (4): faust, Teproc, Witherweaver, silverspawn
Not Voting (2): Joseph2302, e
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I still like the RR lynch better.
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It always scares me when faust and Teproc and ss agree.
I don't think faust really agrees with me if that makes you feel better. Isn't he voting for me ?
No, but I should be.
Vote: Teproc
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I also need more input from Joseph. All he's done so far is defend RR and say WW had a big townslip.
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I also need more input from Joseph. All he's done so far is defend RR and say WW had a big townslip.
Yh he's been pretty useless.
Will contribute later this evening.
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I know people disagree with me but I personally find newbie lynches Day1 to be in poor taste unless they are particularly compelling. In addition they tend to be more random as we don't have any prior meta to base play off, additional days tend to be useful in more accurately assessing them.
I pretty much agree with you.
Agree here as well.
We should only lynch newbies if there's compelling evidence that they're scum - better than the usual cases for D1, which tend to be "you were a bit scummy".
I wouldn't lynch Limetime right now.
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I also need more input from Joseph. All he's done so far is defend RR and say WW had a big townslip.
WW did have a big townslip, and I definitely believe that it wouldn't have been faked there.
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Can people do scummy things to help us find scum?
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So maybe this will help people understand where I'm coming from. I was actually thinking about this on the way to work yesterday, but didn't end up posting it because when I checked the thread again everyone was going nuts about the daychat slip thing and I thought that rendered this irrelevant, but maybe it will still help people understand my perspective.
For me, the whole appeal to mafia is the theory, the role interactions and how you should use them, that sort of thing. I don't really enjoy the scumhunting aspect of it, it just sort of gets in the way of the fun part. So when I sign up for a game, it's because I'm expecting the set-up to be really interesting. It wouldn't make sense to me to sign up for a game without looking at the set-up first. It's part of why I haven't played in a (non-bastard) closed set-up before. So even though I consciously know that other people aren't like that, I tend to assume subconsciously that their experience is roughly the same as mine.
That's why when WW slipped something that very clearly implied he hadn't even looked at the set-up, I assumed it must be fake. It's hard for me to imagine people signing up for a game if they don't already have an interest in the set-up first, and they can't do that without knowing something as fundamental to the set-up as the fact that everyone is a VT and has a neighborhood for powers. As I said before, if I had to assume that the slip was not fake, then I think it is very clearly much, much more likely to come from town than scum. So the real question for me there was just whether it was or was not fake. I thought it pretty clearly had to be fake, because how could someone just totally ignore the set-up like that? But as I was thinking about it in the car, I thought you know, a lot of people (probably including WW) just automatically sign up for every game, because they want to play mafia in general, not just some particular set-up. And not reading the set-up is (sadly) a pretty common practice, even if it makes no sense to me at all.
When EgorK brought up the other town slip, that solidified it for me, and then I felt that was compelling enough that that whole point was irrelevant, but maybe it still helps other people understand where I'm coming from on this.
So now this brings me to the people who said the slip was real, and was more likely to come from scum than town. Can anyone explain to me what the reasoning is there? Scum is a lot more invested in the game before it starts (though really town should be too, especially in a set-up like this). They should be discussing stuff pre-game, they should have at least a basic understanding of how the game works going into it.
This is why Teproc looks scummy to me. The whole time, he's trying to take WW's slip and turn it into something scummy. His reasoning not only doesn't make sense, but really feels like he's trying to spin something as scummy and take advantage of an opportunity to push an easy wagon.
At least that's what stood out to me, I think I'm going to want to reread that whole incident at some point because there's probably a lot of info to be gotten there about other players too.
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You're forgetting all of this happened in the space of, what, 24 hours ?
S_P's reaction to it all is easily the scummiest thing now. First he's egging on but not really taking a stance (or taking a very convenient stance that doesn't involve commiting himself), which make a lot of sense for scum if WW is town. And really it makes a lot of sense for scum if WW is scum too, now that I think about it.
I don't think I was non-committal. I think I was late to the party and didn't feel like tracking where all the votes were. I made my stance pretty clear at the time, and then changed my mind in light of new evidence.
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It made perfect sense : I don't agree that scum would be more invested in the game in this particular case (beause veryone except gkrieg got a QT with people in it), and the point is that scum, while invested, wouldn't specifically hav thought about town all being VTs.
If it's hard for you to imagine people signing up for a game without specific interest for its setup, here you go : I didn't start reading the setup before I got my PM. I believe this is the case for at least half the people playing mafia around here, at least for normal games.
WW's semi-townslip cancels out his semi-scumslip though.
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You didn't vote. That's the definition of non-commital. Votes are the only thing that really mark commitment in mafia.
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I think the case on WW is reasonable. Well actually I think the reasoning is a little off, because I don't think it's a scumslip; scum should be at least as likely to have read the set-up as town (but really come on guys, just everyone read the set-up; why are you playing if you don't want to know what you're playing). To me it looks like a fake slip. It could be real, but it looks fake because of when and how it happened. Like, there was already another joke VT claim, and WW had already posted stuff in thread (including an opinion about the set-up), and it's like, if you have to post in your neighborhood, I really feel like that should prompt you to go read the set-up. Just nothing about the "slip" really makes sense. The issue for me is I can't quite piece together why he would do it as scum either. It could have been something he was planning from the beginning, but it was such an ugly slip I feel like he would have known better. Still somewhat scummy overall, I think, just because the town narrative makes even less sense than the scum narrative.
But then there's this post that bothers me:
Facts for future:
My firstpost in the neighborhood QT was at 10:20 PM (EST) on March 6. Both other neighbors posted (one message each) before me. I posted a thought in there and there was no response.
There was no mod announcement to say who was in the neighborhood.
Thread locked at 7:00 PM (EST) on March 7. I'm assuming all of these (including scum QT) closed around the same time. That's enough time for scum to share who was in my neighborhood if one of my neighbors is scum.
Cool, and now you're leaking info about who is in your neighborhood even though there is no consensus about whether we want that info to be public? Vote: WW
What I saw here when I first read it is faust looking for more reasons to incriminate WW, like he needs to justify his vote on him even more, with flimsy reasons. But actually after thinking about it, I think this isn't faust trying to incriminate WW, because leaking info isn't something that scum needs to do here (they already would have shared everything they know with each other; and even if they didn't, doing it in thread seems like a completely unnecessary risk). I think he's just expressing his (completely understandable) frustration with WW for including unnecessary details that could potentially give scum some extra info.
This is the post in question. If that isn't non-commital, I don't know what it is. You're saying WW is slightly scummy but also faust is... not scummy nor townie.
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It made perfect sense : I don't agree that scum would be more invested in the game in this particular case (beause veryone except gkrieg got a QT with people in it), and the point is that scum, while invested, wouldn't specifically hav thought about town all being VTs.
If it's hard for you to imagine people signing up for a game without specific interest for its setup, here you go : I didn't start reading the setup before I got my PM. I believe this is the case for at least half the people playing mafia around here, at least for normal games.
WW's semi-townslip cancels out his semi-scumslip though.
So I'm back to my original status of IC. Good deal.
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Yeah. WW, silverspawn, yuma, and myself are all ICs along with gkrieg
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If it's hard for you to imagine people signing up for a game without specific interest for its setup, here you go : I didn't start reading the setup before I got my PM. I believe this is the case for at least half the people playing mafia around here, at least for normal games.
Right, and realizing this is for me what made it much more believable that the slip could be real. I don't really understand it in the sense that it's so different from my personal experience that I can't relate to it, and that's why I had trouble accepting it before.
It made perfect sense : I don't agree that scum would be more invested in the game in this particular case (beause veryone except gkrieg got a QT with people in it), and the point is that scum, while invested, wouldn't specifically hav thought about town all being VTs.
It's just...such a stretch. Like, why would a VT assume that everyone is a VT, while scum wouldn't? If you have enough of an understanding of the set-up to make a coherent post about it (in your neighborhood or scum QT), then you realize that everyone is a VT. Otherwise, there's no reason scum would be more likely to be ignorant of it than town. In fact, if anything, I think scum would be more likely to say "Hey I'm in a neighborhood with townies, I better make sure I know what's going on" and then go back and check the set-up.
Don't you understand like this looks to me like you're trying to spin a town slip as a scum slip? I feel like that it is a town slip is the obvious interpretation, and you have to really work to make it look bad.
BTW, I don't agree with you either that scum and town are equally invested pre-game. It is true that town has more reason than normal to be invested pre-game in this particular set-up, but I think in pretty much any set-up, scum is more invested pre-game than town.
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You didn't vote. That's the definition of non-commital. Votes are the only thing that really mark commitment in mafia.
I disagree. If someone is at L-1, can you not commit to a stance on that person without hammering them? I didn't know how many votes were on WW, but I thought I made it clear that I thought he was scummy.
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You made clear that you maybe thought he could potentially be kinda scummy. Voting is the only thing that counts in the end, and it's not that hard to do a votecount if you're that worried.
As for the above : it is still insane to me that you see it as "obviously a townslip" (in tat you think that's the clear first interpretation). I think you're the only one here to hold that view, so clearly it's not that obvious to everyone else.
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I think the case on WW is reasonable. Well actually I think the reasoning is a little off, because I don't think it's a scumslip; scum should be at least as likely to have read the set-up as town (but really come on guys, just everyone read the set-up; why are you playing if you don't want to know what you're playing). To me it looks like a fake slip. It could be real, but it looks fake because of when and how it happened. Like, there was already another joke VT claim, and WW had already posted stuff in thread (including an opinion about the set-up), and it's like, if you have to post in your neighborhood, I really feel like that should prompt you to go read the set-up. Just nothing about the "slip" really makes sense. The issue for me is I can't quite piece together why he would do it as scum either. It could have been something he was planning from the beginning, but it was such an ugly slip I feel like he would have known better. Still somewhat scummy overall, I think, just because the town narrative makes even less sense than the scum narrative.
But then there's this post that bothers me:
Facts for future:
My firstpost in the neighborhood QT was at 10:20 PM (EST) on March 6. Both other neighbors posted (one message each) before me. I posted a thought in there and there was no response.
There was no mod announcement to say who was in the neighborhood.
Thread locked at 7:00 PM (EST) on March 7. I'm assuming all of these (including scum QT) closed around the same time. That's enough time for scum to share who was in my neighborhood if one of my neighbors is scum.
Cool, and now you're leaking info about who is in your neighborhood even though there is no consensus about whether we want that info to be public? Vote: WW
What I saw here when I first read it is faust looking for more reasons to incriminate WW, like he needs to justify his vote on him even more, with flimsy reasons. But actually after thinking about it, I think this isn't faust trying to incriminate WW, because leaking info isn't something that scum needs to do here (they already would have shared everything they know with each other; and even if they didn't, doing it in thread seems like a completely unnecessary risk). I think he's just expressing his (completely understandable) frustration with WW for including unnecessary details that could potentially give scum some extra info.
This is the post in question. If that isn't non-commital, I don't know what it is. You're saying WW is slightly scummy but also faust is... not scummy nor townie.
"Somewhat scummy" is more committal than "slightly scummy", but whatever.
The faust thing was just me thinking out loud. At first I thought it was scummy but as I was typing I realized that my reasoning didn't make sense. I actually like stream of consciousness posting like that because it makes it easier for people to read you when you do that.
Think of it this way: if I just had left that part out, you wouldn't have said anything about it. I included it because it's a little extra thing that people can use to look at my thought process. But because I didn't end up taking a stance on faust, you said it's scummy. But if I just hadn't said anything about faust, I also wouldn't be taking a stance on him, and then you wouldn't have said it was scummy. I'm just giving you more information because more information is better than less.
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Freaking boards ate my answer. It was something like this : if you had asked WW at the start of the game "Are all townies VTs ?" he would have said "Well yeah, duh", but that doesn't mean he had that thought specifically. I think scum is much more likely to specifically have that thought.
I have no problem with you think out loud, I'm just saying that this post IS non-commital, both its points.
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Scum is much less* likely etc.
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Yeah. WW, silverspawn, yuma, and myself are all ICs along with gkrieg
Isn't creating ICs really scummy?
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You made clear that you maybe thought he could potentially be kinda scummy. Voting is the only thing that counts in the end, and it's not that hard to do a votecount if you're that worried.
Look dude. If you weren't voting for me right now, I wouldn't say you're not committing. You're very clearly committing to a scum read on me based on your posts, regardless of whether you're voting for me.
I didn't see a reason to vote for WW, because there was clearly pressure on him already and I wouldn't want to risk a derphammer (especially in this kind of set-up). What is the benefit of me voting for him there?
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I have no problem with you think out loud, I'm just saying that this post IS non-commital, both its points.
It's me going back and forth and trying to decide whether there's another reasonable explanation for something. I'm trying to consider all sides of the situation to see if there's one that makes more sense than what seemed like the natural conclusion to me. I ended up deciding, no, my first instinct is most likely right, that's why I ended up saying he was scummy.
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@SP if you're more interested in setup discussion than scumhunting, how do we catch you if you are in fact scum?
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Sorry, I'm just frustrated because I disagree with you on like every single thing you've said this game basically. I mean maybe you're scum trying to manipulate me, or maybe you really are town and we just see things differently. It's just frustrating because I'm trying to be honest and helpful and explain what it's like to think like how I do, and you don't seem to understand it.
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Eh,
Vote: Teproc
e, why is Yuma among the ICs?
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@SP if you're more interested in setup discussion than scumhunting, how do we catch you if you are in fact scum?
Well I mean, in theory, catch me taking scummy night actions? I don't know.
But I mean, I'm not saying that I won't scumhunt. Just that it's not my favorite part of the game.
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bhlvbdsjlfcnsdjkcnsdjkcsdnjsdm
(that's me being angry at the Internet/the forums, not you)
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Ok. Let's try this again.
Voting is mafia 101, I have no idea why we're even arguing about this. If you don't vote for the people who you think are scum, what's to pressure mafia into voting for their partners ? How do we get voting patterns to analyse ? Why are we even playing the game ? Voting is everything, voting is life.
My case on you is : there was a thing going, you came in, said some seemingly productive stuff leading you to a consensual position (leaning scummy on WW) while not commiting yourself. So you're there, no one can say you're not participating, but you don't look too bad if WW gets lynched, and you don't look too bad if there's a backlash against the wagon. Seems like typical day 1 scum play to me.
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I agree with Scott more. Voting is bad. It indicates a wish to lynch, causes hammers and brings things like policy voting and sheeping.
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grgrnjkgnrejrkenrejgnkgr
This is me being angry at people not wanting to play the game of mafia.
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I agree with Scott more. Voting is bad. It indicates a wish to lynch, causes hammers and brings things like policy voting and sheeping.
Like, seriously. You have never been as wrong as you are right now.
"Water is bad. It indicates a wish to live, causes peeing and brings things like thirst and wetness."
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I agree with Scott more. Voting is bad. It indicates a wish to lynch, causes hammers and brings things like policy voting and sheeping.
Like, seriously. You have never been as wrong as you are right now.
"Water is bad. It indicates a wish to live, causes peeing and brings things like thirst and wetness."
I always get pressured to vote even if I don't want to.
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You know those vt pms? You know the ones that tell you your only power is your vote?
Yeah. Voting is powerful. And townie. And helps catch scum on later days.
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Ok. Let's try this again.
Voting is mafia 101, I have no idea why we're even arguing about this. If you don't vote for the people who you think are scum, what's to pressure mafia into voting for their partners ? How do we get voting patterns to analyse ? Why are we even playing the game ? Voting is everything, voting is life.
My case on you is : there was a thing going, you came in, said some seemingly productive stuff leading you to a consensual position (leaning scummy on WW) while not commiting yourself. So you're there, no one can say you're not participating, but you don't look too bad if WW gets lynched, and you don't look too bad if there's a backlash against the wagon. Seems like typical day 1 scum play to me.
So you're case is...I'm scum because I did what everyone else did? I mean obviously if I was trying to just blend in, it didn't work, because I am (or at least was) the leading wagon. But I guess I can sort of see where you're coming from, I just don't see myself being any different there from everyone else, and I guess I'm biased because I know you're wrong.
Voting is obviously good, up to a certain point. If someone's at L-1 and you think they're scummy, and there's a lot of time left before deadline, you don't vote for them. If someone's at L-2, you might not vote for them if you're worried about derphammers. I didn't know at the time and still don't know how many votes were on WW when I made that post. But obviously we didn't want him lynched right then either way, so a vote is just another way of posting "I think he's the scummiest option right now". Well, I did that, just without putting more votes on him.
Of course there's also a benefit to voting someone who has no or few votes on them, because someone has to start a wagon for it to get anywhere. But that wasn't the case there.
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I mean I think this isn't really relevant to the game anymore anyway, but just to illustrate what I'm trying to say.
If everyone substituted every time they voted with the statement, "I'd like to vote for X right now", the game would be the same, as long as people still actually voted before deadline (and lynched people that got a sufficient number of "I'd like to vote for X" statements).
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I mean I think this isn't really relevant to the game anymore anyway, but just to illustrate what I'm trying to say.
If everyone substituted every time they voted with the statement, "I'd like to vote for X right now", the game would be the same, as long as people still actually voted before deadline (and lynched people that got a sufficient number of "I'd like to vote for X" statements).
That's not really true, in practice. Because "I'd like to vote for X right now" is not actually counted, so, one, counts get confusing, and two, it changes the control of when the lynch happens. Also, some roles are affected by votes.
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It's also pretty clear that you want standardized notation, not just for the mod, but so we can get information more easily (and less ambiguously) on rereading.
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Yuma's townslip:
the only way it could be fake is if ADK posted into the Mafia QT that he was closing all the other QTs... or if WW put 2+2 together with the start of day1 at 7:02...
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Yuma's townslip:
the only way it could be fake is if ADK posted into the Mafia QT that he was closing all the other QTs... or if WW put 2+2 together with the start of day1 at 7:02...
Is that actually?
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Yuma's townslip:
the only way it could be fake is if ADK posted into the Mafia QT that he was closing all the other QTs... or if WW put 2+2 together with the start of day1 at 7:02...
Is that actually?
So the context is talk concerning timing of when qts close, etc. He was assuming that scum would not know when the town prs qt closes, which means that info would have to be provided by the mod to scum.
If he were scum, this thought would not have occurred, because he would be intimately familiar with the fact that he is in a town pr qt
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I think i should unvote for now.
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So he is town because he made the assumption that ADK had to inform scum when he closed the town pr qts.
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You know, if you believe in slips and all
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I only believe in slips when they clear me~
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I agree with Scott more. Voting is bad. It indicates a wish to lynch, causes hammers and brings things like policy voting and sheeping.
Lol
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I mean I think this isn't really relevant to the game anymore anyway, but just to illustrate what I'm trying to say.
If everyone substituted every time they voted with the statement, "I'd like to vote for X right now", the game would be the same, as long as people still actually voted before deadline (and lynched people that got a sufficient number of "I'd like to vote for X" statements).
Tell that to all the people who disliked my pseudo voting system that I made in a game with treestumps to give everyone a vote.
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I agree with Scott more. Voting is bad. It indicates a wish to lynch, causes hammers and brings things like policy voting and sheeping.
Like, seriously. You have never been as wrong as you are right now.
"Water is bad. It indicates a wish to live, causes peeing and brings things like thirst and wetness."
Strongly disagree with RR, voting encourages wagons, which can then be analysed for information, therefore voting gives information, which is pro-town.
On that note, I should vote more.
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So he is town because he made the assumption that ADK had to inform scum when he closed the town pr qts.
Logic makes sense to me.
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So that's yuma and WW with townslips, and Gkrieg is IC. All of these I wouldn't vote for.
SP's logic made some sense, as I could understand the perspective that he's viewing the game from, and from that it makes sense that WW is scummy in his mind.
However from the perspective I have, lots of people don't read setup/flavour on here, and seems that WW was in that boat here.
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Also, Vote: RR- voting is pro-town per my argument above, and so encouraging not to vote is anti -town.
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I mean I think this isn't really relevant to the game anymore anyway, but just to illustrate what I'm trying to say.
If everyone substituted every time they voted with the statement, "I'd like to vote for X right now", the game would be the same, as long as people still actually voted before deadline (and lynched people that got a sufficient number of "I'd like to vote for X" statements).
Tell that to all the people who disliked my pseudo voting system that I made in a game with treestumps to give everyone a vote.
That system worked well, right up until the point were no-one actually did any real votes.
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I am also counting silverspawn and my non-PGO slip as town slips.
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Although those are much weaker. I think yuma's slip is the strongest.
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Vote Count 1.3
Roadrunner7671 (4): gkrieg13, yuma, Hydrad, Joseph2302
Limetime (2): Roadrunner7671, EgorK
scott_pilgrim (2): Teproc, silverspawn
Teproc (3): scott_pilgrim, faust, Witherweaver
Not Voting (2): 2.71828, Limetime
With 13 players alive, it takes 7 to lynch. Day One will end Thursday, March 17th, 7 pm. forum time.
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I greatly sympathize with SP here and as a bias don't want to lynch him.
But I don't think I want to lynch him anyways...
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I agree with Scott more. Voting is bad. It indicates a wish to lynch, causes hammers and brings things like policy voting and sheeping.
This is RR taking a stance by SP and just running away with it wildly into the wind...
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I agree with Scott more. Voting is bad. It indicates a wish to lynch, causes hammers and brings things like policy voting and sheeping.
This is RR taking a stance by SP and just running away with it wildly into the wind...
On my meta list, two of the items are 'misses the point' and 'voices his opinion.'
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It is hard for me to comment on my "townslip" itself. I mean... I am town and therefore don't really see it is a slip of revelation to me of my alignment, but I can see why people would be able to make some sort of a decision (or some type of pass) about me based upon it.
So I'll take it and run with it and expect WW to do the same.
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I mean I think this isn't really relevant to the game anymore anyway, but just to illustrate what I'm trying to say.
If everyone substituted every time they voted with the statement, "I'd like to vote for X right now", the game would be the same, as long as people still actually voted before deadline (and lynched people that got a sufficient number of "I'd like to vote for X" statements).
Tell that to all the people who disliked my pseudo voting system that I made in a game with treestumps to give everyone a vote.
I disliked it and refused to use it because I was scum and it fit my meta of being purposefully disagreeable and worked to my (our advantage), but otherwise it probably would have worked, except that it was a system and system's consistently fail around here.
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So a few things from rereading. Everyone should almost always be voting for someone. There are like two reasons you shouldn't:
- You are at LYLO, in which case you don't want to give scum a quicklynch
- Someone is at L-1 and you want to give them a chance to claim.
But ya not voting is anti-town.
That being said, I don't think it makes RR any more scummy than he has already been this game. I do think that Joseph voting him for that reason is slightly scummy.
So reads time:
1. Roadrunner7671 - is definitely on the scummier side of things.
2. gkrieg13 - obv IC. But for reals
3. faust - Something seems off about him. He doesn't scream town to me like he usually does.
4. silverspawn - Seems pretty towny to me.
5. yuma - Seems towny to me, but I think the couple of slips could easily be fabricated. Especially with Daychat.
6. 2.71828 - pretty null for me. I don't feel like I have played enough with e to understand his D1 meta.
7. Hydrad - Also on my scummy list
8. EgorK - I don't remember anything
9. Joseph2302 - On my scummy list.
10. Limetime - D1 pass, but I would watch him carefully on subsequent days.
11. Teproc - Have not gotten the town vibes from Teproc
12. Witherweaver - I don't give much credit to the slip, but I think he has been relatively townie.
13. scott_pilgrim - pretty null on him, which is surprising given the amount of posting he has done.
So my current scum reads are the people I generally find scummy, which is not very good.
About neighborhood claiming, I think it would be best to claim neighborhood at L-1. There is no incentive to fake-claim neighborhood (or at least not one I can think of), and I don't think it will be very important on later days to have everyone claim right now.
The reason to claim neighborhoods is to use that as evidence against other people, but you can probably find a way around it.
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I think scott makes way more sense in the whole Teproc/scott argument. Of course I've been going biased into the whole thing.
e seems much like town!e from M75.
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Although those are much weaker. I think yuma's slip is the strongest.
I don't know. yuma slips after WW. At that point, scum could have thought of constructing a slip for themselves. On the other hand, with daychat around, I think it somewhat likely that scum would let another one of their own make a slip because yuma is one of the guys people will expect to fake slips.
So not that strong. I agree however that yuma should not be a candidate today.
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I think scott makes way more sense in the whole Teproc/scott argument. Of course I've been going biased into the whole thing.
Specifics ? What is it you disagree with me about ? THat S_P has been scummy ? Or the other less relevant stuff ?
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I think scott makes way more sense in the whole Teproc/scott argument. Of course I've been going biased into the whole thing.
Specifics ? What is it you disagree with me about ? THat S_P has been scummy ? Or the other less relevant stuff ?
Both.
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Sorry, unexpected trip until Saturday. Would still have time to read and probably post a little/
Also between Teproc ans SP I think SP comes out as scummy, but this is more of a gut feeling. Still want answer from Limetime
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Although those are much weaker. I think yuma's slip is the strongest.
I don't know. yuma slips after WW. At that point, scum could have thought of constructing a slip for themselves. On the other hand, with daychat around, I think it somewhat likely that scum would let another one of their own make a slip because yuma is one of the guys people will expect to fake slips.
So not that strong. I agree however that yuma should not be a candidate today.
I have never intentionally made a slip before in the history of my mafia games. So I don't know why you would think that.
I have intentionally made a mistake. See joth's MXIX game where I pretended to send the night action to the wrong mod name. But that wasn't a slip that was an attempt to explain crazy behavior. And in that game I was accused of intentionally making a slip by consistently misspelling the name of the scum team, but that was just because I thought it was spelled that way and not be deliberately trying to do that.
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So I feel like Faust is acting like he does he he has a PR instead of a VT role. In the context of this game, without PRs that makes him seem a bit scummier to me.
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I have never intentionally made a slip before in the history of my mafia games. So I don't know why you would think that.
Mostly because I think you're a good scum player I suppose?
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So I feel like Faust is acting like he does he he has a PR instead of a VT role. In the context of this game, without PRs that makes him seem a bit scummier to me.
Why do you think I act like I have a PR? I mean, it's true that in general I may act differently when I'm a PR, but that's not what I try to do here, so I wonder where that impression comes from.
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So I feel like Faust is acting like he does he he has a PR instead of a VT role. In the context of this game, without PRs that makes him seem a bit scummier to me.
Why do you think I act like I have a PR? I mean, it's true that in general I may act differently when I'm a PR, but that's not what I try to do here, so I wonder where that impression comes from.
I feel like I have a hard time reading you in general. But the couple of times that I have read you better have been when you have had a town PR, specifically Marvel and Harry Potter II... especially Harry Potter II, where despite your persistent tunneling of me and trying to move me away from a solid lynch on RR I more or less maintained a neutral position on you... and all of this was because, I think, you were the vig and weren't acting your normal townie or your normal scummy.
It feels the same here. Aggressiveness, but not in a super scummy way. Questioning.... everything. But being all Mr. Pro-town going to get Night killed Night1 sort of way.
I don't know if that makes sense. But it is how I am reading you, but since there aren't any PRs in this game I don't really know what to make of it.
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So I feel like Faust is acting like he does he he has a PR instead of a VT role. In the context of this game, without PRs that makes him seem a bit scummier to me.
Why do you think I act like I have a PR? I mean, it's true that in general I may act differently when I'm a PR, but that's not what I try to do here, so I wonder where that impression comes from.
I feel like I have a hard time reading you in general. But the couple of times that I have read you better have been when you have had a town PR, specifically Marvel and Harry Potter II... especially Harry Potter II, where despite your persistent tunneling of me and trying to move me away from a solid lynch on RR I more or less maintained a neutral position on you... and all of this was because, I think, you were the vig and weren't acting your normal townie or your normal scummy.
It feels the same here. Aggressiveness, but not in a super scummy way. Questioning.... everything. But being all Mr. Pro-town going to get Night killed Night1 sort of way.
I don't know if that makes sense. But it is how I am reading you, but since there aren't any PRs in this game I don't really know what to make of it.
Oh, so HP is your basis for this. Hm. I went back to check out my play there. Well. I'd say usually I hold back a bit more as a PR, trying to you know not get night killed early. In HP it so happened that I was decently scummy after D1 already. I didn't purposefully try to act different there, at least not that I remember (and I didn't say something to that effect in my QT, which I normally would). A prime example of a game where I really tried to act differently as a PR is Paris mafia (M66). So well... maybe you just read me as townie? That would be good.
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So, my view on the Teproc/SP is that I kind of agree with Teproc- SP was being non-commital, and that's kind of anti-town. But I don't agree with it being a super-scummy thing- it's mildly scummy not to vote (per things I said late yesterday), but there are worse things to do.
I think this is a case of making a mountain out of a molehill (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Make_a_mountain_out_of_a_molehill), so I'm going to Vote: Teproc.
PPE:1
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Rereading the yuma/faust thing now.
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The Teproc votes are scummy business.
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The Teproc votes are scummy business.
I disagree.
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The Teproc votes are scummy business.
I disagree.
As do I.
Maybe he's prefer some votes on him instead? Vote: ss.
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yuma/faust:
So yuma thinks faust is playing like faust does when he's PR, and that's odd because there aren't any PRs (although in a sense we're all semi-PRs).
It's interesting, but not not giving me alignment tells on either of them from that.
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There is a sense in which we're all PRs.
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The Teproc votes are scummy business.
I disagree.
As do I.
Maybe he's prefer some votes on him instead? Vote: ss.
I do think that vote is less scummy, yes.
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The Teproc votes are scummy business.
Meh. S_P's vote felt OMGUSsy, but the others are fine I think. Maybe Joseph, but even then, trying to lynch me on day 1 is hard position for scum to take. faust doing it, sure, but Joseph ? Feels townie to me.
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Though he's moved on. Back to null I guess ?
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Oh, and making mountains out ofmolehills is what day 1 is. Which is fine.
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The Teproc votes are scummy business.
Meh. S_P's vote felt OMGUSsy, but the others are fine I think. Maybe Joseph, but even then, trying to lynch me on day 1 is hard position for scum to take. faust doing it, sure, but Joseph ? Feels townie to me.
I don't agree with the thing about trying to lynch you. You're not much of a Day 1 lynch candidate, so scum going after town!you is a way to be quite active with little consequence. I suppose the detrimental part would be you deciding they're scummy. Though, scum going after scum!you would be even better.
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yuma/faust:
So yuma thinks faust is playing like faust does when he's PR, and that's odd because there aren't any PRs (although in a sense we're all semi-PRs).
It's interesting, but not not giving me alignment tells on either of them from that.
What is odd is that you felt compelled to specifically state that you wanted to reread this "thing" and specifically comment on it when really it isn't a thing at all... like four posts top that had no significant impact on the game.
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yuma/faust:
So yuma thinks faust is playing like faust does when he's PR, and that's odd because there aren't any PRs (although in a sense we're all semi-PRs).
It's interesting, but not not giving me alignment tells on either of them from that.
What is odd is that you felt compelled to specifically state that you wanted to reread this "thing" and specifically comment on it when really it isn't a thing at all... like four posts top that had no significant impact on the game.
Yh I thought it was longer than that. Wasn't worth rereading at all.
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RR has been remarkably absent these last couple of hours.
Yep? What do you need?
So I still think a RR lynch is in order. Not only is he a good lynch candidate from stuff before, but now he has become a good lurker lynch candidate... lurking in the background hoping we will forget about him. Since getting called out for not posting or giving anything about all the stuff from before he has had this to say:
RR has been remarkably absent these last couple of hours.
Yep? What do you need?
Your thoughts on what happened.
Oh yeah: lynch Linetime first, ask questions later.
And stop joking around.
And the only person with a townslip is WW.
Lol it's time for me to get almost lynched. Is the scummiest thing I've done is not post very much. I am doing that because I don't find much reason to post. You guys have a lot more experience then me. Yes I did notice the Townslip.
Just make bad jokes!
Harry Potter Mafia was where I made a lot of mistakes as new scum.
X-Shots was better, but I still didn't win.
I think I joke less when I'm scum? I don't think I'm scum here.
Yeah. WW, silverspawn, yuma, and myself are all ICs along with gkrieg
Isn't creating ICs really scummy?
I agree with Scott more. Voting is bad. It indicates a wish to lynch, causes hammers and brings things like policy voting and sheeping.
I agree with Scott more. Voting is bad. It indicates a wish to lynch, causes hammers and brings things like policy voting and sheeping.
Like, seriously. You have never been as wrong as you are right now.
"Water is bad. It indicates a wish to live, causes peeing and brings things like thirst and wetness."
I always get pressured to vote even if I don't want to.
I agree with Scott more. Voting is bad. It indicates a wish to lynch, causes hammers and brings things like policy voting and sheeping.
This is RR taking a stance by SP and just running away with it wildly into the wind...
On my meta list, two of the items are 'misses the point' and 'voices his opinion.'
To summarize:
attempt at activity... fluffy fluff
a bad joke about bad jokes
self reflection
the one point that isn't fluff, but just a repetition of what someone already said
bad voting principle
soft defense of principle
more soft defense of principle
So... there has been a lot going on. RR has had pretty much nothing to say about any of it. This is fluffy lurking even for RR. And to answer the lingering question I am sure he is asking... "No we aren't going to forget about you, cause I am not going to let us."
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I don't want anyone to forget about me.
Sometimes I have nothing to say. Acti-lurking and spamming the thread are both scummy.
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Sometimes I have nothing to say.
Somtimes is fine. But there has been a lot going on. I am not saying you need to comment on every single thing that is happening. But if you don't voice your opinion here and there who knows what you are thinking... and that is scummy.
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Sometimes I have nothing to say.
Somtimes is fine. But there has been a lot going on. I am not saying you need to comment on every single thing that is happening. But if you don't voice your opinion here and there who knows what you are thinking... and that is scummy.
I guess that's true. I'll have computer access later today.
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Sorry, like no access today. Post probably late tonight
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vote: rr
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I don't want anyone to forget about me.
Sometimes I have nothing to say. Acti-lurking and spamming the thread are both scummy.
Really? I've never seen you have nothing to say before.
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I don't want anyone to forget about me.
Sometimes I have nothing to say. Acti-lurking and spamming the thread are both scummy.
Really? I've never seen you have nothing to say before.
Do you want to talk? We can talk if you feel lonely.
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I don't want anyone to forget about me.
Sometimes I have nothing to say. Acti-lurking and spamming the thread are both scummy.
Really? I've never seen you have nothing to say before.
Do you want to talk? We can talk if you feel lonely.
I'm going to bed, so no thanks.
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It's 01:14 in Johannesburg
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And 05:00 in Kathmandu
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Vote Count 1.4
Roadrunner7671 (4): gkrieg13, yuma, Hydrad, Limetime
Limetime (2): Roadrunner7671, EgorK
scott_pilgrim (2): Teproc, silverspawn
Teproc (3): scott_pilgrim, faust, Witherweaver
silverspawn (1): Joseph2302
Not Voting (1): 2.71828
With 13 players alive, it takes 7 to lynch. Day One will end Thursday, March 17th, 7 pm. forum time.
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So I got a chance to reread but not so much to make a post. It seems like Teproc has been tunnely, and I can't say I like that. The wagon on me is shockingly large, but no one seems to want to talk about it.
I don't know guys. I don't know what to talk about. I want to lynch outside of Scott and Teproc, but if it came down to it, I'd Vote: Teproc.
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vote: RR
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The wagon on me is shockingly large, but no one seems to want to talk about it.
That is completely untrue.
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The wagon on me is shockingly large, but no one seems to want to talk about it.
That is completely untrue.
Want to talk about it?
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The wagon on me is shockingly large, but no one seems to want to talk about it.
That is completely untrue.
Want to talk about it?
I have said so many things about you. Go do a Control F of my posts if you forgot. Your response is the one that has been lacking. Don't try and spin this as a"woe is me, everyone is voting for but I don't know why" thing.
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The wagon on me is shockingly large, but no one seems to want to talk about it.
That is completely untrue.
Want to talk about it?
I have said so many things about you. Go do a Control F of my posts if you forgot. Your response is the one that has been lacking. Don't try and spin this as a"woe is me, everyone is voting for but I don't know why" thing.
Control F is hard from an iPod.
I think my best defense is that I would be defending myself more as scum, andI would've been posting more content as well as higher quality content than I have been.
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Man things got pretty heated and then just completely died down. I still like my vote where it is.
I do agree that RR should be saying more stuff. Like, there's plenty of stuff this game to comment on, he hasn't really taken any stances. Same goes for Limetime and EgorK I think.
BTW after tonight I'll probably gone-ish for a few days. I usually work Friday afternoons and nights and Saturday mornings and afternoons, so it's hard for me to post in that time and I'm usually super tired by Saturday evening.
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Roadrunner seems like an ok lynch, but I can't say I'm enthusiastic about it. I have no idea what the difference between town and scum RR is (everything yuma describes in his big post seems to apply to both to me).
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Roadrunner seems like an ok lynch, but I can't say I'm enthusiastic about it. I have no idea what the difference between town and scum RR is (everything yuma describes in his big post seems to apply to both to me).
From experience, there's not a lot of difference. He still tends to joke around, and complain about getting votes, regardless of alignment.
But RR being on here and not really posting is certainly different, seems a little odd to me.
Although, he does seem to be the default lynch target in lots of games, which means that if he's good, he's going to be an easy mislynch.
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My issue with the RR wagon is mainly that it gives people an easy out. It started early, andas usual RR fails to do anything to make the wagon dissolve. That means that we have people on that wagon that didn't really do much of anything today and sit idly on their RR vote. Like Hydrad, I can't remember the last time he posted. Limetime has similar issues. Even silver's contributions so far have been sparse. yuma is really the only player on that wagon that seems genuinely interested in discussing other players.
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Roadrunner seems like an ok lynch, but I can't say I'm enthusiastic about it. I have no idea what the difference between town and scum RR is (everything yuma describes in his big post seems to apply to both to me).
This seems worth exploring...
- zero town play - RR has progressed enough in the games that I have seen him as town to have a modicum of towniness and town attributes. He has had zero here through his 30 posts.
seen at least a modicum of towniness, or at least the appearance of town play. I mean, he isn't screaming town to me. But frankly, Teproc never, ever does. Even when I know he is town I get scummy vibes from him.
- over zealous posting and joking - again I have seen enough from town RR where he doesn't do this and should know that if he is town doing this won't help anything, whereas if he is scum I don't know if he feels he can say anything else
haven't seen this from Teproc. I read through Teproc's posts. There was maybe one joke and maybe 5 fluffy posts, out like 40. Teproc's other posts have moved the game somewhere and stated definitive statements.
- the OMGUS vote - like I said, looks like a oscillation in the behavior that caught him out before
Teproc has OMGUSed SP's vote on him in a strict classification of the word (that he voted for the person voting for him). But compared to RR's vote on me there is analysis and reasoning beyond the vote on Teproc for it. I don't necessarily agree with the analysis and reasoning but it is there and so it isn't just strict OMGUS. And actually when looking at it, Teproc has a scum read on SP even before SP votes for him, so if anything you could classify it as pre-OMGUS for SP.
- only serious post was a sheeping attempting to get a wagon started on someone that wasn't him
when Teproc voted for SP there was only the one vote on him, so this point doesn't apply. Same as his other votes.
- posts that attempt to remove credibility from votes on him and the wagon forming on him
Does the opposite. Argues most of the votes on him are fine except, maybe for SP's (he calls it OMGUSy, which I kinda agree with)
attempt at activity... fluffy fluff
a bad joke about bad jokes
self reflection
the one point that isn't fluff, but just a repetition of what someone already said
bad voting principle
soft defense of principle
more soft defense of principle
and didn't really see any of this from Teproc. Activity was good. Little self reflection, rarely repeats what others said. Argued strongly against the bad voting principle and defended that argument.
He is a pretty decent lynch candidate to me.
so I mean... he isn't a great scum candidate. I think if it came down to SP or Teproc I would probably choose Teproc--mostly because I think I would have a better chance of correctly reading SP later down the road, but that doesn't sound like a great lynch option to me. Really the only thing making me suspicious of Teproc is that he made this post comparing himself to RR. I don't really get what this about.
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My issue with the RR wagon is mainly that it gives people an easy out. It started early, andas usual RR fails to do anything to make the wagon dissolve. That means that we have people on that wagon that didn't really do much of anything today and sit idly on their RR vote. Like Hydrad, I can't remember the last time he posted. Limetime has similar issues. Even silver's contributions so far have been sparse. yuma is really the only player on that wagon that seems genuinely interested in discussing other players.
This is a fair point. In the Harry Potter game you well played being the town foil to the wagon--and ended up being suspected by others because of it to an extent, and almost got me mislynched in the process--but it revealed some good stuff about the rest of town that could be applied to the next days. This hasn't really happened here, but maybe it can start?
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(everything yuma describes in his big post seems to apply to both to me).
^483...
I just reread this and realized I completely interpreted it the wrong way. I thought Teproc was saying everything applies "both to me" instead of saying that everything I said applied to both town!RR and scum!RR...
So that huge post wasn't really necessary... oh well. It was a nice excuse to do a Teproc reread... I'll maybe respond to this in a bit, but maybe per faust's post the other people voting for RR want to take a crack at it?
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I wasn't comparing myself to RR at all, but that was fun to read.
I guess the "to me" is what made it seem like that ? I was saying RR's play doesn't seem different from his usual play... to me. ie I don't see a difference between his town and scum play.
PPE : There you go.
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I wasn't comparing myself to RR at all, but that was fun to read.
I guess the "to me" is what made it seem like that ? I was saying RR's play doesn't seem different from his usual play... to me. ie I don't see a difference between his town and scum play.
PPE : There you go.
yeah... the whole time I was like "that was an odd thing for Teproc to say, there isn't really anything to compare him to RR..." but I didn't question it until I saw Joseph's response a bit later. And like I said, was a good chance to reread you, so worth the time and effort even if presented a bit oddly...
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My issue with the RR wagon is mainly that it gives people an easy out. It started early, andas usual RR fails to do anything to make the wagon dissolve. That means that we have people on that wagon that didn't really do much of anything today and sit idly on their RR vote. Like Hydrad, I can't remember the last time he posted. Limetime has similar issues. Even silver's contributions so far have been sparse. yuma is really the only player on that wagon that seems genuinely interested in discussing other players.
This is a fair point. In the Harry Potter game you well played being the town foil to the wagon--and ended up being suspected by others because of it to an extent, and almost got me mislynched in the process--but it revealed some good stuff about the rest of town that could be applied to the next days. This hasn't really happened here, but maybe it can start?
Well, this time my heart isn't really in it I fear. I just don't think RR has shown signs of townieness. Maybe I can do a Teproc reread to support my read there though.
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So, let's read Teproc.
His first post in the game comes relatively late. It has some reads already:
yuma is wrong and therefore town.
faust is right and therefore null.
Hydrad is enthusitatic and trying to be helpful, therefore town.
I have no idea how you guys are able to read RR.
vote: Limetime
Including the "talk about a bunch of people, then vote for someone else" thing... have we ever decided whether that's a town or a scum trait?
Then he votes for the IC. Forgetting who's the IC is not a tell either way I believe. Here's another post:
well, I was first like 'mh VT :(' but then I had the neighborhood and that made me think 'maybe there are no powers' and then I read the setup.
Funnily enough, I did more or less the same but starting with "sweet, VT !".
This plays into the meta that Teproc prefers VTs to PRs. It is rather well-known (I think? Well I know it) and I can see scum!Teproc going for this. But it could come from town too.
Now starts the whole WW thing. And with it the major weird vibes I get form Teproc.
You're going with "didn't read the setup, I'm clearly obtown", then ?
This is followed by a vote for WW, in which Teproc states that he "doesn't 'buy it'". I thought at first this was him thinking we have a fake slip here. But upon closer examination, he does say "I wish ash was in the game", and as ash is known for scumslip arguments, that should mean that his did think it's a scumslip. Now for some rolefishing:
Is that a softclaim ?
Note how this is in direct contrast to what Teproc said earlier:
We should not claim neighborhoods, and we should really stop talking about it, or at least be a lot more careful about it. Because really, there have already been a few slips, and those make the whole "not claiming" completely pointless.
Then I have some theory disagreement with Teproc. He says we should not claim today, even at L-1. I think that's bad. We don't want to lynch a Doctor. Even if that means lynching only the second most scummy player on my list, I think keeping the Doctors alive is worth it. Scum HAS to kill a Doc sooner or later if they want to get rid of gkrieg. Getting a Doc lynched D1 is potentially quite good for scum.
Then Teproc finds scott scummy for a post that I thought was relatively townie because it was stream-of-consciousness-like. Then follows the argument that VTs with a neighborhood are more likely to read the setup than scum. I don'tknow, I don't think so. But on second thought, it also seems weird that scum!Teproc, coming out of a mafia QT where these things were discussed, would think that such an argument is any good.
Then there's his stance on "this is not a fake townslip". Which is also a bit strange coming from scum. If you start that wagon as scum, don't you accept any reason people find to jump it?
After WW's townslip, Teproc moves on to scott. Okay, that was the other thing i found weird. Maybe there's more to see here.
I agree with the point that not voting is generally bad. The rest is... maybe just Teproc not seeing the thing I see in that post? The points he makes are generally fine, only he misses the other points that I think point more to town!scott. And well since nobody points them out, that's fine.
So I guess this reread turned out differently from what I expected? I don't have a town read on Teproc now, mind you, but I also don't think he's the best lynch anymore.
So I still don't want to join the RR wagon... maybe vote: silver? I can reread him next and then see my read crumble there as well. That will be fun.
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The softclaim comment was a joke, implying that WW was softclaiming a non-existent PR.
Silver... I don't know what to do with silver. He used to be someone I was very good at reading, but recently he's developped this meta of not really being involved in games. I'm tempted to say it's scummy because silver is known for preferring being town, but he's done it recently in games where he was town too.
I just don't have reads this game (beside S_P and Hydrad), it's a bit problematic.
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The softclaim comment was a joke, implying that WW was softclaiming a non-existent PR.
Alright. Well there are still more important and less important neighborhoods, so I thought it was genuine.
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Looking at it, silver has actually been relatively present this game, that's probably townie.
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Egork continues to have excuses to not post.
He asks whether I have had experience with mafia. I try to answer with this
You guys have a lot more experience then me.
He continues to not acknowledge my answer...
If that is too ambiguous I will say that this is one of my first mafia games and that I have had no experience outside this forum.
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So how about silver? I feel that one will be quicker.
Starts out discussing probabilities. And he uses models to calculate it. Ugh. Doesn't know how PGOs work. I don't think that necessarily implies anything, as long as you didn't use your power, you might not have checked how it actually works. Vote for RR, no reason given. Calls WW's thing a scumslip first and votes for him. Says the slip is not "overwhelming evidence". Well that will make you look better if WW flips town. Then this:
okay, this exchange makes me lean much more scum on WW. I usually always get town vibes if people are defending themselves in situations like these; here it feels neutral.
PEE big post from yuma
You're scummy because you read neutral? That doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Further argues against WW. Switches to Limetime after WW's slip, no reason given. This slip he calls "massive evidence"; interesting contrast to how he viewed the first "slip". Sheeps Teproc on scott.
Comments that it's problematic that scott is more interested in setup discussion than scumhunting. Coming from a guy who did nothing so far but push a player for a "scumslip". Calls Teproc votes "scummy business", again, no reason given. Votes RR again after he joins the Teproc wagon.
So all his given reads amount to:
WW is first scummy, then townie.
scott is scummy
RR is scummy
Teproc is apparently townie (at least voting for him is scummy)
That's pretty bad. And there's a whole lot of fluff in between. I'm okay keeping my vote there for now.
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Egork continues to have excuses to not post.
You shouldn't make implicit accusations like this. If someone says they're busy, then they're busy. We are counting on people t not be jerks that make up business trips in order to lurk.
He asks whether I have had experience with mafia. I try to answer with this
You guys have a lot more experience then me.
He continues to not acknowledge my answer...
If that is too ambiguous I will say that this is one of my first mafia games and that I have had no experience outside this forum.
I have to say that I did not realize that the quoted post was supposed to be a response to Egor. Stating it explicitly like this is probably better.
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Oh, and Hydrad last post was 2.5 days ago.
Request prod on Hydrad
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Oh, and Hydrad last post was 2.5 days ago.
Request prod on Hydrad
I forgot what lurky Hydrad means
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Oh, and Hydrad last post was 2.5 days ago.
Request prod on Hydrad
I forgot what lurky Hydrad means
It means he's Hydrad.
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His one post was very townie though. Actually constructive and stuff. I think scum!Hydrad is probably more concerned to notn super lurk like that too.
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His one post was very townie though. Actually constructive and stuff. I think scum!Hydrad is probably more concerned to notn super lurk like that too.
I just went through and reread his post in the two most recent games, M75 and M76 (he was mafia and then town) and to an extent I think you were right. While the substance of the posts were pretty similar in the mafia game he had significantly more posts despite being the Day1 lynch compared to living part way through the game as town. Although about 1/3 of the posts as mafia where when he was under pressure of being lynched... that tends to get people posting.
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I do feel like we are in an ok position PoE wise. I think sometimes we get too caught up in trying to find mafia on Day1 when Day1 is best served in trying to find town:
So PoE:
gkrieg as IC;
WW and myself most people seem to agree are off limits for today for slip reasons.
Limetime is newbie and really hasn't indicated he is necessarily scummy regardless.
SP, faust, teproc, silver and 2.7 are all in the middling category of townyish (I could support a lynch of any of them if one started to become more scummy than the rest)
The big question marks are: RR, hydrad, joseph and EgorK.
I guess unsurprisingly this is the "lurker" list and unless I see a good reason to move to a person in the townyish category is where I think we should ultimately lynch. Too bad this game isn't great for a deadline quicklynch as I think that would probably end up being pretty useful.
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post post post
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Starts out discussing probabilities. And he uses models to calculate it. Ugh. Doesn't know how PGOs work. I don't think that necessarily implies anything, as long as you didn't use your power, you might not have checked how it actually works.
Hey. I reached the right results, and I did it without cluttering the thread in the slightest. I don't want to hear complaints!
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ok but seriously my bad :( I did not think it had been 2.5 days. time flys when your having fun I guess.
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Silver... I don't know what to do with silver. He used to be someone I was very good at reading, but recently he's developped this meta of not really being involved in games.
But that was just because exams! Now, I have all the time in the world! I'm super involved.
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Starts out discussing probabilities. And he uses models to calculate it. Ugh. Doesn't know how PGOs work. I don't think that necessarily implies anything, as long as you didn't use your power, you might not have checked how it actually works.
Hey. I reached the right results, and I did it without cluttering the thread in the slightest. I don't want to hear complaints!
Do you also have a substantial response to that post?
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Silver... I don't know what to do with silver. He used to be someone I was very good at reading, but recently he's developped this meta of not really being involved in games.
But that was just because exams! Now, I have all the time in the world! I'm super involved.
No, you're not.
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Do you also have a substantial response to that post?
Let's see
You're scummy because you read neutral? That doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
Well, it does make sense. Whenever someone is under a lot of pressure, I usually get town vibes-- so that changes the standard. if I only get neutral vibes, that's a scum sign
That's pretty bad.
I mean, you're just saying I did X, Y, Z, etc which is all true, and then you say it's bad. I did all that, but why is it bad?
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I have not been able to follow like I should. I will reread tonight
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I have not been able to follow like I should. I will reread tonight
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That's pretty bad.
I mean, you're just saying I did X, Y, Z, etc which is all true, and then you say it's bad. I did all that, but why is it bad?
Because you didn't do more. All you ever did today was sheep people (mostly Teproc).
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That's true, but the stuff you listed also included taking various stances. I don't think it's unusual for me not having done much more than taking stances and sheeping people a few days into day 1.
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That's true, but the stuff you listed also included taking various stances. I don't think it's unusual for me not having done much more than taking stances and sheeping people a few days into day 1.
Vote: ss
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That's true, but the stuff you listed also included taking various stances. I don't think it's unusual for me not having done much more than taking stances and sheeping people a few days into day 1.
Stances that you fail to support with reasoning. They could as well be arbitrary, because we don't actually know what you're thinking. It's the Awaclus problem.
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That's true, but the stuff you listed also included taking various stances. I don't think it's unusual for me not having done much more than taking stances and sheeping people a few days into day 1.
Stances that you fail to support with reasoning. They could as well be arbitrary, because we don't actually know what you're thinking. It's the Awaclus problem.
That doesn't make it a scum tell.
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well I think I'll be the foil and say that I don't like the ss wagon. He has felt townie to me.
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I'm not a fan of lynching SS here either.
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(Fixed) Vote Count 1.5
Roadrunner7671 (5): gkrieg13, yuma, Hydrad, Limetime, silverspawn
Limetime (1): EgorK
scott_pilgrim (1): Teproc
Teproc (3): scott_pilgrim, Witherweaver, Roadrunner7671
silverspawn (2): Joseph2302, faust
Not Voting (1): 2.71828
With 13 players alive, it takes 7 to lynch. Day One will end Thursday, March 17th, 7 pm. forum time.
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L-2 is a bad deal.
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L-2 is a bad deal.
You're right.
Vote: Roadrunner
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L-2 is a bad deal.
You're right.
Vote: Roadrunner
Neighborhood claim?
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Vote: WW
Why would you force a neighborhood claim?
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I'm a bad kid.
Also, what?
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I'm a bad kid.
Also, what?
You put me at L-1, so I have to claim my neighborhood. Forcing me to do so is scummy.
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I'm a bad kid.
Also, what?
You put me at L-1, so I have to claim my neighborhood. Forcing me to do so is scummy.
Some of those words don't mean what you think they mean.
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I'm a bad kid.
Also, what?
You put me at L-1, so I have to claim my neighborhood. Forcing me to do so is scummy.
Some of those words don't mean what you think they mean.
Vote: Awaclus
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Vote Count 1.5
Roadrunner7671 (5): gkrieg13, yuma, Hydrad, Limetime
Limetime (1): EgorK
scott_pilgrim (1): Teproc
Teproc (3): scott_pilgrim, Witherweaver, Roadrunner7671
silverspawn (2): Joseph2302, faust
Not Voting (1): 2.71828
With 13 players alive, it takes 7 to lynch. Day One will end Thursday, March 17th, 7 pm. forum time.
This does not list silverspawn as voting for RR, even though it should.
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At first I thought the number was wrong, and I was so close to fakehammering RR for reactions... well, good thing I didn't.
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Are you saying I hammered him?
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Oh, no, it said 5 but didn't list all five.
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gkrieg I think we need a decision about how we wish to proceed with the neighborhoods soon. Before the day ends, that is.
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Oh, no, it said 5 but didn't list all five.
Yes, I thought it wasn't actually L-1 right now, and was so close to hammering. That would have been.... bad.
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I'm in the roleblocker neighborhood. Don't lynch me.
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I'm in the roleblocker neighborhood. Don't lynch me.
DON'T... don't do that without the IC's consent!
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Intent to hammer
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And make no mistake RR, if you spill any more information than you already have, you're dead.
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And make no mistake RR, if you spill any more information than you already have, you're dead.
You have intent to hammer. Aren't I already dead?
But no, I'm not going to tell you who's in my neighborhood. But Gkrieg isn't!
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Who here is a 'RR expert?' The town could use your expertise right now!
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Who here is a 'RR expert?' The town could use your expertise right now!
erm, here. I don't think you're particularly scummy. I didn't know I was voting for you, unvote
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Intent to hammer also
I'd like to hear from Gkrieg first though.
Seriously RR, don't claim unless you have to. Now when we lynch you as anti-town/scum, that tells scum there's no RB tonight.
PPE: 1
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Intent to hammer also
I'd like to hear from Gkrieg first though.
Seriously RR, don't claim unless you have to. Now when we lynch you as anti-town/scum, that tells scum there's no RB tonight.
PPE: 1
Here's a neat trick: don't lynch me! I thought you were an expert as well.
But I think I had to claim there. L-1, with a lot of people who thought RR was scummy not even on wagon.
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Who here is a 'RR expert?' The town could use your expertise right now!
erm, here. I don't think you're particularly scummy. I didn't know I was voting for you, unvote
RR claiming a few posts after faust had asked for IC's input on neighbourhoods is an awful thing to do.
We should let Gkrieg work out what he think is best for town, as he's the only person we can definitely trust.
PPE:1
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Intent to hammer also
I'd like to hear from Gkrieg first though.
Seriously RR, don't claim unless you have to. Now when we lynch you as anti-town/scum, that tells scum there's no RB tonight.
PPE: 1
Here's a neat trick: don't lynch me! I thought you were an expert as well.
But I think I had to claim there. L-1, with a lot of people who thought RR was scummy not even on wagon.
Just because you get put onto L-1 doesn't mean you have to claim before anyone can do anything.
If you'd waited 15 minutes, ss would have unvoted you, and you wouldn't have given away any information.
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Vote: RR, this is L-1 again.
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This wagon seems a bit too easy to be town driven.
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A lot of the time I feel like RR picks phrases that he's seen in other Mafia games and drops them in in marginally relevant situations.
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A lot of the time I feel like RR picks phrases that he's seen in other Mafia games and drops them in in marginally relevant situations.
Ha ha.
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My apologies for the mistake.
Vote Count 1.5
Roadrunner7671 (6): gkrieg13, yuma, Hydrad, Limetime, Witherweaver, Joseph2302 (L-1)
Limetime (1): EgorK
scott_pilgrim (1): Teproc
Teproc (2): scott_pilgrim, Roadrunner7671
silverspawn (1): faust
Not Voting (2): 2.71828, silverspawn
With 13 players alive, it takes 7 to lynch. Day One will end Thursday, March 17th, 7 pm. forum time.
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A lot of the time I feel like RR picks phrases that he's seen in other Mafia games and drops them in in marginally relevant situations.
Agree.
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That being said, I'm not super convinced of scum RR. But I really can't read him.
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I still like looking at Teproc or Faust.
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And possibly e, though I think he's played much like this as town before.
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This wagon seems a bit too easy to be town driven.
This argument might have some merit, if it was being argued by someone other than the person who the wagon is on.
PPE:3
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He still seems like scum to me.
I think we should wait until tomorrow to neighborhood claim. I think we can safely lynch someone from the rb neighborhood though
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I still like looking at Teproc or Faust.
Why faust? I understand Teproc, but faust has seemed pretty townie to me
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He still seems like scum to me.
I think we should wait until tomorrow to neighborhood claim. I think we can safely lynch someone from the rb neighborhood though
Agree with all of this.
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This wagon seems a bit too easy to be town driven.
I think I've only used this argument as scum. Also I was the one initially driving it, and I'm IC
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I'm good with the hammer. I don't htink there is anything else to discuss at this point.
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I would rather hammer someone else. RR has done nothing to make me think he's scum.
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I would rather hammer someone else. RR has done nothing to make me think he's scum.
What has he done to make you think he isn't?
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I would rather hammer someone else. RR has done nothing to make me think he's scum.
What has he done to make you think he isn't?
He's been jumpy and doesn't feel fake. I'll reread, maybe I'll change my mind or find more.
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Who would you rather lynch?
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1) I have not been impressed with the IC so far this game. Opening up with a gut reaction vote against yuma was very bad. I didn't condemn it immediately because I wanted to see how it would play out to see if scum jumped on the wagon and ran with it. They did not. They are running on this RR wagon though.
2) Waiting around for an IC to make decisions for you is scummy. I think scum!RR would have waited for gkrieg to tell him to claim. Town!RR just claims. Well, maybe town!RR is different, but I am not convinced.
3) Why is the IC the first person on the wagon? Maybe I have different ideas on how an IC should operate, but I don't like ICs to vote as much as other town people. We get reads from votes. The IC on the wagon forces one less person (scum) to commit to a lynch. Thats a big commitment.
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Mh yeah, jumpy and funny and says silly stuff. Mild town.
Who would you rather lynch?
everyone who isn't Teproc or you or me or had a town slip.
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Also, there is no reason we need to rush and jump into this lynch. It could be scum, sure, but RB is a pretty dang good role that we have, and nullifying it is a huge bonus to scum.
Granted, we hate to nullify any role, and we have to lynch someone eventually. But I don't think we need to rush to lynch RR. I need to reread him anyway. I honestly don't really know much at all of what has gone on the entire RR wagon.
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Like, from my recollection RR has just been a random one or two person voting, nobody unvoting because they don't want to try to look and read and find other scum. That is lazy town.
I am honest lazy town and am not even voting.
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1) I have not been impressed with the IC so far this game. Opening up with a gut reaction vote against yuma was very bad. I didn't condemn it immediately because I wanted to see how it would play out to see if scum jumped on the wagon and ran with it. They did not. They are running on this RR wagon though.
2) Waiting around for an IC to make decisions for you is scummy. I think scum!RR would have waited for gkrieg to tell him to claim. Town!RR just claims. Well, maybe town!RR is different, but I am not convinced.
3) Why is the IC the first person on the wagon? Maybe I have different ideas on how an IC should operate, but I don't like ICs to vote as much as other town people. We get reads from votes. The IC on the wagon forces one less person (scum) to commit to a lynch. Thats a big commitment.
I agree I'm not a very good IC. I'm also a bad D1 town player.
Who would you like to lynch?
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I definitely see your point on 3.
unvote
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1) I have not been impressed with the IC so far this game. Opening up with a gut reaction vote against yuma was very bad. I didn't condemn it immediately because I wanted to see how it would play out to see if scum jumped on the wagon and ran with it. They did not. They are running on this RR wagon though.
2) Waiting around for an IC to make decisions for you is scummy. I think scum!RR would have waited for gkrieg to tell him to claim. Town!RR just claims. Well, maybe town!RR is different, but I am not convinced.
3) Why is the IC the first person on the wagon? Maybe I have different ideas on how an IC should operate, but I don't like ICs to vote as much as other town people. We get reads from votes. The IC on the wagon forces one less person (scum) to commit to a lynch. Thats a big commitment.
Discrediting the IC is scummy!
... (that was a jokey reference, but I'm not sure who among those that are playing here gets it)
I agree that I would play differently than gkrieg if I were the IC.
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Only when Robz is IC is it scummy.
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I've also been busy this week.
Anyway, I will try to be better for the rest of the day
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silver's flipflopping is highly interesting though. I don't really see why scum!silver would do this. Unless like he's partners with Joseph and gets off the wagon so Joseph can get on for weird towncred... that doesn't sound plausible. But we have to remember that things like silver unvoting and Joseph stating intent to hammer afterwards can be orchestrated with daytalk. I think there is a tendency to ignore the impact daytalk has on scum play. Well. It doesn't really make sense to orchestrate what happened here. But keep daytalk in mind.
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With 13 players alive, it takes 7 to lynch. Day One will end Thursday, March 17th, 7 pm. forum time.
Also, we have plenty of time. I will get around to a reread later. Most likely tomorrow.
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After my initial rage-intent-to-hammer... I don't know, I certainly don't want the day over yet.
I think neighborhood claiming should be off the table now, with RR's claim, it gives too much information to scum.
I have to remind myself who is in this game. Let's see:
Roadrunner7671 - well who knows. One could argue that scumpartners would encourage him to be more active. His reaction to the intent to hammer is tentatively townie.
gkrieg13 - IC
faust - also IC!
silverspawn - well as a said not a lot of content, but that recent episode seemed genuine.
yuma - has a slip going on and he's overall active and making sense and posting good stuff.
2.71828 - I remember initially having a town read on him. Felt like in the other game... M75?
Hydrad - there was one post in the beginning that read tonwie to me. Nothing since then though.
EgorK - the one thing he has going for himself is pointing out WW's slip. That makes him a bad choice compared to other lurkers.
Joseph2302 - I remember very little about the guy. Which, given the amount of townreads I have, makes him very lynchable.
Limetime - see above.
Teproc - could go either way really. I'm bad at reading him and honestly I'd prefer to lynch a lurker.
Witherweaver - slip makes him unlynchable today.
scott_pilgrim - had one post that read townie and little else.
So overall...
Want to lynch: Limetime, Joseph
Would lynch: Teproc, Hydrad, RR, scott
Might be persuaded to lynch: e, silver, Egor
Won't lynch: yuma, WW
Let's try a vote: Joseph
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That reads list actually made me find Faust more scummy. What do people think about Faust?
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That reads list actually made me find Faust more scummy. What do people think about Faust?
He was my top scumread until recently, mostly based on fighting the creation of IC's and wanting to hammer RR-- but I think this reads list made him a lot townier. What's scummy about it?
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That reads list actually made me find Faust more scummy. What do people think about Faust?
But why? Because it is a reads list? Or because of the content? If so, which content?
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fighting the creation of IC's
???
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Also how have I been your top scumread when you never voted for me?
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Also how have I been your top scumread when you never voted for me?
My thought process was that if I don't vote you'll seen like a universal town read and would die in the following night. Then, if you did not die, I'd have made a case day 2.
I forgot that we have an IC that will probably be killed instead... oh well.
Also, wanted to avoid OMGUS arguments after you voted for me.
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That reads list actually made me find Faust more scummy. What do people think about Faust?
But why? Because it is a reads list? Or because of the content? If so, which content?
I just disagree with some of your reads. I also don't think that only putting lurkers that are easy to lynch on your want to lynch and mostly easily mislynched people on your would lynch list
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fighting the creation of IC's
???
You did do that-- e started to call a bunch of people IC's, and you fought it.
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fighting the creation of IC's
???
You did do that-- e started to call a bunch of people IC's, and you fought it.
Can you provide that quote? I remember e's post, but I don't think I responded.
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Also how have I been your top scumread when you never voted for me?
My thought process was that if I don't vote you'll seen like a universal town read and would die in the following night. Then, if you did not die, I'd have made a case day 2.
I forgot that we have an IC that will probably be killed instead... oh well.
Also, wanted to avoid OMGUS arguments after you voted for me.
This seems slightly townie, but of course in this setup scum needs to go for things other than "who looks the most townie?"
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Weird this thread wasn't showing up on my new replies thread... I missed like that last page and a half... catching up... cause things happened...
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I'm in the roleblocker neighborhood. Don't lynch me.
DON'T... don't do that without the IC's consent!
I have to say that this feels like fake indignation. Maybe it is real and I am just seeing it at a later time and finding it over the top as I already know a bit of what happened after... so just saying...
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A lot of the time I feel like RR picks phrases that he's seen in other Mafia games and drops them in in marginally relevant situations.
Agree.
HA!
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1) I have not been impressed with the IC so far this game. Opening up with a gut reaction vote against yuma was very bad. I didn't condemn it immediately because I wanted to see how it would play out to see if scum jumped on the wagon and ran with it. They did not. They are running on this RR wagon though.
2) Waiting around for an IC to make decisions for you is scummy. I think scum!RR would have waited for gkrieg to tell him to claim. Town!RR just claims. Well, maybe town!RR is different, but I am not convinced.
3) Why is the IC the first person on the wagon? Maybe I have different ideas on how an IC should operate, but I don't like ICs to vote as much as other town people. We get reads from votes. The IC on the wagon forces one less person (scum) to commit to a lynch. Thats a big commitment.
Discrediting the IC is scummy!
... (that was a jokey reference, but I'm not sure who among those that are playing here gets it)
I agree that I would play differently than gkrieg if I were the IC.
I get the joke... but your statement is true (been there, done that....)
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That reads list actually made me find Faust more scummy. What do people think about Faust?
But why? Because it is a reads list? Or because of the content? If so, which content?
I just disagree with some of your reads. I also don't think that only putting lurkers that are easy to lynch on your want to lynch and mostly easily mislynched people on your would lynch list
That that impression just comes from the fact that yuma and WW slipped, so there's to hard to lynch people gone. I think other "hard to lynch" people are relatively evenly distributed. And yes I'm putting lurkers on my want to lynch. I have given my reasons, and I think they're pretty good.
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oh hey more stuff happened.
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hmm so RR almost got lynched kinda. thats interesting. He claimed. And while people are annoyed at him it seems to have partly done its job so you can't fully blame him.
Although there seems to be a decent chance he would still be fine even if he didn't claim. So I guess we will never know.
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Vote: Faust
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1) I have not been impressed with the IC so far this game. Opening up with a gut reaction vote against yuma was very bad. I didn't condemn it immediately because I wanted to see how it would play out to see if scum jumped on the wagon and ran with it. They did not. They are running on this RR wagon though.
2) Waiting around for an IC to make decisions for you is scummy. I think scum!RR would have waited for gkrieg to tell him to claim. Town!RR just claims. Well, maybe town!RR is different, but I am not convinced.
3) Why is the IC the first person on the wagon? Maybe I have different ideas on how an IC should operate, but I don't like ICs to vote as much as other town people. We get reads from votes. The IC on the wagon forces one less person (scum) to commit to a lynch. Thats a big commitment.
I agree I'm not a very good IC. I'm also a bad D1 town player.
Who would you like to lynch?
Don't worry I trust you as IC more then me. That was really the one role I didn't want.
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Vote: Faust
any reasons?
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Vote: Faust
any reasons?
-Intent to hammer me but backs off when the wagon loses gusto.
-Reads
-Not saying anything similar to what 2.7 said at any point during the game.
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\\\\\\\
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yumas picture looks like iguana's for some reason.
Anyone think that he is scum! He is an IC so you are wrong.
vote: hydrad?
I ma reareading tomorrrown
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Vote: Faust
any reasons?
-Intent to hammer me but backs off when the wagon loses gusto.
-Reads
-Not saying anything similar to what 2.7 said at any point during the game.
similar to stuff i dais? look at my iritcal reocrds. I am terible at lynching ucm.
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PST is awesome. Eeryone else is sleeping.
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Vote: Faust
any reasons?
-Intent to hammer me but backs off when the wagon loses gusto.
-Reads
-Not saying anything similar to what 2.7 said at any point during the game.
- I mainly stated intent to hammer to see how you would react.
- "reads"... what does it even mean?
- and what does that even mean?
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1) I have not been impressed with the IC so far this game. Opening up with a gut reaction vote against yuma was very bad. I didn't condemn it immediately because I wanted to see how it would play out to see if scum jumped on the wagon and ran with it. They did not. They are running on this RR wagon though.
2) Waiting around for an IC to make decisions for you is scummy. I think scum!RR would have waited for gkrieg to tell him to claim. Town!RR just claims. Well, maybe town!RR is different, but I am not convinced.
3) Why is the IC the first person on the wagon? Maybe I have different ideas on how an IC should operate, but I don't like ICs to vote as much as other town people. We get reads from votes. The IC on the wagon forces one less person (scum) to commit to a lynch. Thats a big commitment.
I agree I'm not a very good IC. I'm also a bad D1 town player.
Who would you like to lynch?
Don't worry I trust you as IC more then me. That was really the one role I didn't want.
Same. I was IC once, away/busy most of the week, contributed very little and then died N1. Glad someone other than me is IC.
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Joseph reread.
He has a scummy, sort fo blending in and generic opening post. He defends RR fro a bit. He calls WW's slip "one of the biggest townslips" that he has seen. Argues against lynching newbies (i.e. Limetime). Then votes for RR for arguing that voting is bad. That is one bad vote. Earlier he was defending RR because he's "crazy, but not scummy", and now he's voting him over a weak case like that to join a popular wagon? That looks bad.
Then he votes for Teproc because he's "making a mountain out of a molehill". How is that even scummy? That's exactly how a good townie plays D1. Then he votes silver for... thinking Teproc votes are scummy? I don't even know. Is that OMGUS? Then a hedgy post about RR:
Roadrunner seems like an ok lynch, but I can't say I'm enthusiastic about it. I have no idea what the difference between town and scum RR is (everything yuma describes in his big post seems to apply to both to me).
From experience, there's not a lot of difference. He still tends to joke around, and complain about getting votes, regardless of alignment.
But RR being on here and not really posting is certainly different, seems a little odd to me.
Although, he does seem to be the default lynch target in lots of games, which means that if he's good, he's going to be an easy mislynch.
Then we have RR's claim. And Joseph states intent to hammer. After I stated intent to hammer. Why would you do that? Also, he votes RR basically for the claim, but the claim does not make any more sense for scum!RR than it does for town!RR. If RR is scum, then scum already knows who the Roleblockers are. That is just bad reasoning.
That is all. Joseph's whole stance on RR during all of the game feels so off, it gets me wondering if they are partners. But it's too early for that I guess. Joseph also votes on basically all popular wagons (RR, Teproc, silver) - he doesn't vote on WW because he's not online between the first "slip" and the second. Everything seems rather scummy here.
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Don't really have time for this in the week-end, but quickly :
e is townie
faust is scummy (not sure exactly why, but he is, will investigate later)
RR is scummier now (his reactions to L-1 reminded me of the endgame of... whatever game it was where he got lynched at lylo as scum recently).
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Vote: Teproc
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He asks whether I have had experience with mafia. I try to answer with this
You guys have a lot more experience then me.
He continues to not acknowledge my answer...
If that is too ambiguous I will say that this is one of my first mafia games and that I have had no experience outside this forum.
I have to say that I did not realize that the quoted post was supposed to be a response to Egor. Stating it explicitly like this is probably better.
This
PPE: 5 pages
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This wagon seems a bit too easy to be town driven.
This argument might have some merit, if it was being argued by someone other than the person who the wagon is on.
PPE:3
Commenting as I read
It seems so from here as well
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That reads list actually made me find Faust more scummy. What do people think about Faust?
I think lynching faust D1 is generally counterproductive
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That reads list actually made me find Faust more scummy. What do people think about Faust?
I think lynching faust D1 is generally counterproductive
Lynching Teproc D1, on the other hand, highly productive.
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Also how have I been your top scumread when you never voted for me?
My thought process was that if I don't vote you'll seen like a universal town read and would die in the following night. Then, if you did not die, I'd have made a case day 2.
I forgot that we have an IC that will probably be killed instead... oh well.
Also, wanted to avoid OMGUS arguments after you voted for me.
I think we should not make general assumptions of who would be killed at night. Most likely first 2 kills would be from doctor neighborhood and IC, in that order (unless scum can just cancel out doctor or scum does not know for sure who's in doctor neighborhood)
tldr, scum much more constrained on who to kill in this setup
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I agree with faust on Joseph. I think this warrants Vote: Joseph
I still find Limetime scummy, but between them I'd choose Joseph.
Also, can someone educate me on how to read RR? I honestly can't
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That reads list actually made me find Faust more scummy. What do people think about Faust?
I think lynching faust D1 is generally counterproductive
Lynching Teproc D1, on the other hand, highly productive.
Historically you're wrong (the one time I was lynched on day 1 was a mislynch).
One thing I forgot : yuma is back to null (he was townie before). Joseph might be somewhat scummy, and I think S_P's disappearance is mighty convenient, because everyone's forgotten about him and my awesome case against him. Ok, people weren't convinced evne when he was around but still, he did disappear and that is significant.
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One thing I forgot : yuma is back to null (he was townie before).
Why is that?
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I don't think Teproc is scummy here.
I'd be up for voting for Yuma. I'm also going to do some reading.
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I'd be up for voting for Yuma.
Why is that?
Other than blatant OMGUS?
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That reads list actually made me find Faust more scummy. What do people think about Faust?
I think lynching faust D1 is generally counterproductive
unless he is scum
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One thing I forgot : yuma is back to null (he was townie before).
Why is that?
You're agreeable again. I know this must be infuriating to hear, but my ability to read you is kinda limited to that. I guess you do have kind of a townslip, but I'm not super confident you're town.
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I'd be up for voting for Yuma.
Why is that?
Other than blatant OMGUS?
PPE
Nevermind, in rereading I rediscovered your townslip, so you're cool.
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That reads list actually made me find Faust more scummy. What do people think about Faust?
I think lynching faust D1 is generally counterproductive
unless he is scum
I agree that not lynching faust because he's faust is not a sound policy. He is just likely as anyone else to roll scum, and yeah he's a good townie, but if he's in a position to be lynched he's not getting NKed anyway, so his town meta shouldn't stop you.
I think S_P and RR are both better lynches, but I could do that.
While we're at it, since no one else is buying S_P as scum, I'll vote: RR.
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I think letting faust and similar players live one day is generally a good idea-- even empirically, given how often he died early.
However, in this case, since we have an IC, that makes him more lynchable. Unfortunately my scum read on him has diminished.
SP being conveniently absent is good point. vote: SP
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Been busy today, will contribute tomorrow.
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I'm not sure what people mean by conveniently absent...it's not like I'm trying not to post anything, and I also don't really get what the advantage to me not being here is. I just haven't had time to post recently. This will probably be a general thing for me on Fridays/Saturdays.
I don't know how to read Roadrunner. I think the case on him is pretty solid in a vacuum, but RR is the sort of player to do those things as town too I think. I think he's a decent lynch, but I think we can do better.
Besides Teproc, I think Joseph is the next best lynch. He's been contributing but he seems to always be sort of in the background, taking popular opinions, etc. That's the feeling I get from him anyway.
I want to go back and reread stuff (especially the almost lynch on RR since I only sort of skimmed it) but don't really feel like it right now. I think this has been a really great day for PoE though. Maybe later tonight.
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I like S_P this game. Your town. It should also play more games
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I want to go back and reread stuff (especially the almost lynch on RR since I only sort of skimmed it) but don't really feel like it right now. I think this has been a really great day for PoE though. Maybe later tonight.
Okay I know I'm not doing myself any favors here but I think I'm just too tired to do this tonight, and I feel like I can't really add anything new until I do. And I probably won't be around much tomorrow. So Monday hopefully. We still have a while before deadline at least.
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Don't really have time for this in the week-end, but quickly :
e is townie
faust is scummy (not sure exactly why, but he is, will investigate later)
RR is scummier now (his reactions to L-1 reminded me of the endgame of... whatever game it was where he got lynched at lylo as scum recently).
"faust is scummy, but I'm not sure why" seems like a scummy sort of argument to me.
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That reads list actually made me find Faust more scummy. What do people think about Faust?
I think lynching faust D1 is generally counterproductive
Lynching Teproc D1, on the other hand, highly productive.
Could be. Generally faust is pro-town, because he posts a lot, so we probably don't want to lynch him early unless he's obviously scum.
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I agree with faust on Joseph. I think this warrants Vote: Joseph
I still find Limetime scummy, but between them I'd choose Joseph.
Also, can someone educate me on how to read RR? I honestly can't
When was the last time Limetime posted? Seems like ages ago.
Also, God knows with RR- he's crazy and often impulsive whenever he gets votes on him, regardless of alignment.
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And on SP: He's not been that active, but the same is true for about half the players. Generally, I'm leaning towards town on him
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let me vote: Joseph
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So after the reread I guess I'll go Vote: Teproc.
PPE:1
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Unofficial Vote Count:
faust (1): Roadrunner7671
Teproc (3): scott_pilgrim, Witherweaver, Joseph2302
Hydrad (1): e
Joseph2302 (3): faust, Egork, silverspawn
Roadrunner7671 (4): yuma, Hydrad, Limetime, Teproc
Not Voting (1): gkrieg13
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Vote Count 1.6
Roadrunner7671 (4): yuma, Hydrad, Limetime, Teproc
Teproc (3): scott_pilgrim, Witherweaver, Joseph2302
Joseph2303 (3): faust, EgorK, silverspawn
faust (1): Roadrunner7671
Hydrad (1): 2.71828
Not Voting (1): gkrieg13,
With 13 players alive, it takes 7 to lynch. Day One will end Thursday, March 17th, 7 pm. forum time.
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I will reread this afternoon
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That reads list actually made me find Faust more scummy. What do people think about Faust?
I think lynching faust D1 is generally counterproductive
unless he is scum
I agree that not lynching faust because he's faust is not a sound policy. He is just likely as anyone else to roll scum, and yeah he's a good townie, but if he's in a position to be lynched he's not getting NKed anyway, so his town meta shouldn't stop you.
I think S_P and RR are both better lynches, but I could do that.
While we're at it, since no one else is buying S_P as scum, I'll vote: RR.
I just think he is not likely to play so bad as to be outed as scum D1 while D2-D3 with more info it may be more viable. I do not say that we should not lynch him would he play really scummy
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PPE: about a page
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Nothing prompted me to change vote yet
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That reads list actually made me find Faust more scummy. What do people think about Faust?
I think lynching faust D1 is generally counterproductive
Lynching Teproc D1, on the other hand, highly productive.
Could be. Generally faust is pro-town, because he posts a lot, so we probably don't want to lynch him early unless he's obviously scum.
... couldn't the same argument be made for Teproc, and yet you're voting for him?
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Out of the current wagons, RR is still my preference. Teproc would be a distant second. I mean it would basically be a random lynch for me. I don't know how to read him... ever, so for me personally it would be beneficial to get an alignment flip from him over someone that I feel more confident in being able to read... but that really isn't a reason to lynch someone
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Out of the current wagons, RR is still my preference. Teproc would be a distant second. I mean it would basically be a random lynch for me. I don't know how to read him... ever, so for me personally it would be beneficial to get an alignment flip from him over someone that I feel more confident in being able to read... but that really isn't a reason to lynch someone
What do you think about Joseph?
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Out of the current wagons, RR is still my preference. Teproc would be a distant second. I mean it would basically be a random lynch for me. I don't know how to read him... ever, so for me personally it would be beneficial to get an alignment flip from him over someone that I feel more confident in being able to read... but that really isn't a reason to lynch someone
What do you think about Joseph?
Would need to reread. But gut feel of what I remember is that it felt hodge podge and that I didn't really like it. I mean... He is in my PoE pool so there is that... But I don't think I like it.
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well I think I'll be the foil and say that I don't like the ss wagon. He has felt townie to me.
Actually this was the gut reaction to a wagon I didn't like... Mixed them up. I'll look more closely at the Joseph wagon hen at computer...
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Out of the current wagons, RR is still my preference. Teproc would be a distant second. I mean it would basically be a random lynch for me. I don't know how to read him... ever, so for me personally it would be beneficial to get an alignment flip from him over someone that I feel more confident in being able to read... but that really isn't a reason to lynch someone
I find this very townie. Yuma's never really emntioned not being able to read me before, but it makes a lot of sense to me (he basically always thinks I'm scum), and I don't think scum!yuma would notice this all of a sudden, it's the kind of thought that comes from, you know, actually wondering about someone's alignment.
I like lynching Joseph now. His position on faust feels completely artificial, especially contrasted with his vote on me. I'll readily accept that faust is a better town player than I am, but his reasoning for not lynching faust seems like it would cover yuma and myself, probably WW and silver too... which, yeah, that should tell you right there that it's a pretty poor way of scumhunting by the way.
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Out of the current wagons, RR is still my preference. Teproc would be a distant second. I mean it would basically be a random lynch for me. I don't know how to read him... ever, so for me personally it would be beneficial to get an alignment flip from him over someone that I feel more confident in being able to read... but that really isn't a reason to lynch someone
I find this very townie. Yuma's never really emntioned not being able to read me before, but it makes a lot of sense to me (he basically always thinks I'm scum), and I don't think scum!yuma would notice this all of a sudden, it's the kind of thought that comes from, you know, actually wondering about someone's alignment.
I like lynching Joseph now. His position on faust feels completely artificial, especially contrasted with his vote on me. I'll readily accept that faust is a better town player than I am, but his reasoning for not lynching faust seems like it would cover yuma and myself, probably WW and silver too... which, yeah, that should tell you right there that it's a pretty poor way of scumhunting by the way.
And I think your response to me feels townie. (although this could just be a case of giving town points to someone that already has them and doesn't really need more so it doesn't hurt to give them) as I could see someone easily twisting my statement into a "he is scummy for using his meta of not reading teproc as a cover for giving a solid opinion on him."
As for what Joseph has stated, I needled to not like passes for what people sometimes treat as "first tier players" as I feel that is an artificial construct that I have seen backfire far too often. But I don't know if I get an actual read off it.
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I like the Joseph lynch
vote: joseph
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In my reread he popped up pretty opportunistically, with very bland townie reads. Seems like what scum might do
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Not lynching
gkrieg13 - this guy is the IC
silverspawn - I like his play today
yuma - He also had a slip
2.71828 - this is me
EgorK - he really brought just how much of a slip WW's statement was. Before that WW was still a lynch candidate. I don't see scum doing that.
Limetime - Not going to lynch today. Needs to post more though
Witherweaver - that slip thing
Don't really want to lynch. But I could
scott_pilgrim - I don't think he has done anything really scummy. Plus I like the posts he has made.
Teproc - Eh, not a fan of lynching D1
faust - Eh, not a fan of lynching D1
Roadrunner7671 - I feel like we can always get a lynch on RR. Him pulling in a big wagon D1 could easily be scum driven
These are people I would lynch
Hydrad
Joseph2302
Oh look. Only two people left. Plus the other 4. But this is about where I stand right now.
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I'd be up for a Joseph lynch.
I also have been following this game but I really don't have anything to add.
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So after the reread I guess I'll go Vote: Teproc.
PPE:1
This post also feels weird. Not the Teproc vote, but the PPE. Because PPE was silver's vote for Joseph. So Joseph sees that silver votes for him without really giving a reason and then just walks away? That is so not what I expect from town.
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Have we come to a consensus on neighborhood claiming? If someone is at L-1, do we expect them to claim? Or for certain neighborhoods?
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I dont think we have come to a consensus. I don't think they should claim at all
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Have we come to a consensus on neighborhood claiming? If someone is at L-1, do we expect them to claim? Or for certain neighborhoods?
I think gkreig said he prefers not claiming today. But claiming tomorrow.
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Have we come to a consensus on neighborhood claiming? If someone is at L-1, do we expect them to claim? Or for certain neighborhoods?
I think gkreig said he prefers not claiming today. But claiming tomorrow.
I think no claim is best
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All right I'm here now, I think I'm going to go back and reread and comment on stuff, probably starting from roughly Friday evening or so.
Just because I see some recent posts about it, I want to chime in and say that not claiming is probably right. It's funny because for any particular claim, it's unlikely that that claim gives scum any new info. But in the case that it does, the info it gives them is potentially huge, and I don't think we gain enough worthwhile info from it to make it good in the average case.
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Just because I see some recent posts about it, I want to chime in and say that not claiming is probably right. It's funny because for any particular claim, it's unlikely that that claim gives scum any new info. But in the case that it does, the info it gives them is potentially huge, and I don't think we gain enough worthwhile info from it to make it good in the average case.
Hang on, I forgot that the lynched power can't do their thing the next day, and that's the main advantage to claiming. So it might be correct for docs to claim at L-1 at least (so claim doc or not doc at L-1), because lynching a doc probably means the IC dying the next night. But I guess gkrieg has thought about it and decided no claim is best.
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Then there's his stance on "this is not a fake townslip". Which is also a bit strange coming from scum. If you start that wagon as scum, don't you accept any reason people find to jump it?
This is actually a good point. Though I think at the time he suggested it, the popular opinion was that it was a scumslip, and maybe he thought that was sufficient to get the wagon going.
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I do agree that silverspawn has felt different this game. Like, not as invested in the game I guess. I think this is more likely to come from town!silver than scum!silver though.
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Silver... I don't know what to do with silver. He used to be someone I was very good at reading, but recently he's developped this meta of not really being involved in games.
But that was just because exams! Now, I have all the time in the world! I'm super involved.
Oh, well then there's this I guess.
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That's true, but the stuff you listed also included taking various stances. I don't think it's unusual for me not having done much more than taking stances and sheeping people a few days into day 1.
Stances that you fail to support with reasoning. They could as well be arbitrary, because we don't actually know what you're thinking. It's the Awaclus problem.
That doesn't make it a scum tell.
Maybe not in practice, but it definitely should in theory. If nothing else, it's annoying and anti-town. If scum can get away with not having to post their reasoning, it makes it impossible to read them. To prove you are town, you want to give everyone else as much info as possible.
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L-2 is a bad deal.
You're right.
Vote: Roadrunner
Then WW puts RR to L-1. This could be scum!WW thinking he can get away with it after how people reacted to him earlier in the day. What's the motive there? I guess either a derphammer (especially with the messed up vote count), or to force a claim? I don't actually think that's likely to have been what happened there, but it seemed like a thought worth entertaining.
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I'm in the roleblocker neighborhood. Don't lynch me.
Well I don't like this, but I don't think it means anything in terms of RR's alignment. I might have done the same thing in his position.
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Intent to hammer also
I'd like to hear from Gkrieg first though.
Seriously RR, don't claim unless you have to. Now when we lynch you as anti-town/scum, that tells scum there's no RB tonight.
PPE: 1
So this is a good example of what I've seen a lot of from Joseph this game. Taking a stance on something, but only after someone else has sort of cleared the way for him. That way no one can say he's not contributing anything, but if something happens that looks bad for him, he can put the blame on the bigger proponent of the bad thing. Here, it's him stating intent to hammer only after faust has already done so, and there's already several people mad at RR, so he knows he can't be singled out for it. But this is sort of the feeling I got from him with other stuff too.
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I'm going to take a break from reading for now because it's getting late and I want to go to bed soon. I only got through a few pages but I feel like I've finally gotten a chance to comment on some stuff so I'm getting somewhere. Here's where I'm at right now I think:
1. Roadrunner7671 - No idea how to read RR; hasn't contributed much, but I'm not sure that means he's scum
2. gkrieg13 - IC
3. faust - I want to say towny, but I know I have a tendency to think people are town when I agree with them, and I've agreed with him a lot this game. Still going to say slight town though.
4. silverspawn - Slight town read, plus the slip at the beginning which makes him a little more likely to be town I think.
5. yuma - Early town slip makes him a bad D1 lynch
6. 2.71828 - I remember surprisingly littler from e, despite him being reasonably active...hmm...
7. Hydrad - Has posted like nothing this whole game, that I remember anyway...
8. EgorK - Also hasn't posted much
9. Joseph2302 - I feel like I remember getting scum vibes from him earlier, plus the thing I just posted
10. Limetime D1 newbie pass, though he really really needs to be posting more
11. Teproc - Did some scummy stuff early, though recently has been more null. I'm thinking about switching my vote to Joseph.
12. Witherweaver - early town slips and stuff
13. scott_pilgrim obv!town
Now watch this, I'm going to go check where all the votes are at before voting so that no one can complain about me saying stuff and not voting.
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There's four votes on Joseph now, let's make it 5.
vote: Joseph
This is L-2!
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5. yuma - Early town slip makes him a bad D1 lynch
What was this actually? I feel like there was something that happened early on that made me say yuma was a bad D1 lynch but I can't remember what it was.
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Vote: Joseph
L-1!
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Intent to reread and potentially intent to hammer...
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Intent to reread and potentially intent to hammer...
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5. yuma - Early town slip makes him a bad D1 lynch
What was this actually? I feel like there was something that happened early on that made me say yuma was a bad D1 lynch but I can't remember what it was.
My response to egork's point about ww implied that I had forgotten scum had access to the PR QTs
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So after the reread I guess I'll go Vote: Teproc.
PPE:1
This post also feels weird. Not the Teproc vote, but the PPE. Because PPE was silver's vote for Joseph. So Joseph sees that silver votes for him without really giving a reason and then just walks away? That is so not what I expect from town.
This criticism of joseph feels opportunistic. Both faust and I rarely walk away from votes on us, but I have seen plenty of others do so
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Intent to reread and potentially intent to hammer...
and feeling less likely to intent to hammer after seeing RR is saying the same...
reread Joseph and there were some flags, he isn't #1 townie guy, but he didn't feel super scummy. He wouldn't be a terrible lynch and alignment aside I dont' know if we could do better, but I am not feeling it that much.
Part of this I will concede is my read of people on the wagon
Joseph2303 (6): faust, EgorK, silverspawn, 2.7, SP, Hydrad.
The only person that I have a town read on this wagon is ss. my other town reads: gkrieg (obviously), WW, Teproc aren't on it. That is concerning to me.
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I know I haven't been super-towny, but lynching me would be bad for town.
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I know I haven't been super-towny, but lynching me would be bad for town.
Is that all you have to say in your defense?
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I know I haven't been super-towny, but lynching me would be bad for town.
Is that all you have to say in your defense?
I'm busy, so cannot long post now.
All I know is I'm town and I'm not going to claim my neighbourhood (unless IC wants me to).
So there's not much I can say, except lynching anyone else is probably strictly better.
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I like the Joseph lynch.
One more thing-- he posted some stuff, I casted an unexplained vote on him as a result, he didn't confront me. I give scum points for that; I know I like to avoid confrontations as scum, you rarely get in trouble for doing so.
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Vote Count 1.7
Roadrunner7671 (3): yuma, Limetime, Teproc
Teproc (2): Witherweaver, Joseph2302
Joseph2303 (6): faust, EgorK, silverspawn, 2.71828, scott_piglrim, Hydrad (L-1)
faust (1): Roadrunner7671
Not Voting (1): gkrieg13,
With 13 players alive, it takes 7 to lynch. Day One will end Thursday, March 17th, 7 pm. forum time.
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I would agree that Hydrad's jump on the wagon does not look too good... but eh. L-1 and L-2's often look a bit scummy.
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So I guess I am the only one concerned that the wagon is completely devoid of ICish players (gkrieg, myself, WW)?
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I'm on the wagon! I'm much more ICish than you or WW.
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still, wagon is not overly towny, I agree. But Joseph is scummy.
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I'm on the wagon! I'm much more ICish than you or WW.
As I said, I think you are the only player on wagon that I have a town read on. But I am not talking about individual reads... I am talking about a collective town read on, upon which both myself and WW have much more of a collective town read than you do.
And I guess my point has more to do with that I don't really see Joseph being that scummy AND the wagon on him not seeming that townie. Those two points together are concerning, not necessarily one in isolation.
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Wait, I'm not voting Joseph ?
vote: Joseph
There you go. The softclaiming only solidified it for me. Don't care about the wagon itself, that's putting way too much trust in day 1 reads if you don't want to lynch a wagon just because your town reads (which are just that, because gkrieg is the only IC here) aren't on it.
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I like the Joseph lynch.
One more thing-- he posted some stuff, I casted an unexplained vote on him as a result, he didn't confront me. I give scum points for that; I know I like to avoid confrontations as scum, you rarely get in trouble for doing so.
I've been a lot less confrontational recently- before, I was being confrontational about everything, getting in arguments and getting lynched too much.
Not really a scum tell.
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hammer.
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Wait, I'm not voting Joseph ?
vote: Joseph
There you go. The softclaiming only solidified it for me. Don't care about the wagon itself, that's putting way too much trust in day 1 reads if you don't want to lynch a wagon just because your town reads (which are just that, because gkrieg is the only IC here) aren't on it.
Well thanks, that's the hammer right?
I'm VT, and I wasn't going to claim against the wishes of the IC.
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THREAD LOCKED
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Joseph2302 has been lynched! He was a Vanilla Townie!
Final Vote Count
Roadrunner7671 (2): yuma, Limetime
Teproc (2): Witherweaver, Joseph2302
Joseph2303 (7): faust, EgorK, silverspawn, 2.71828, scott_piglrim, Hydrad, Teproc
faust (1): Roadrunner7671
Not Voting (1): gkrieg13,
With 13 players alive, it took 7 to lynch.
Night One begins now and will end at 7 pm forum time on Wed, Mar 16 (extra time due to my own schedule). Neighborhood actions are due at 11 am forum time, Tue Mar 15.
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Wasn't here for two days time to catch up.
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Wasn't here for two days time to catch up.
Thread is locked so we can't post.
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Day Two Start
Sorry for the delay, the thread was originally locked by ash so I had to wait for him to unlock it.
gkrieg13 the Innocent Child was killed in the Night!
Vote Count 2.0
Not Voting (11): Roadrunner7671, faust, silverspawn, yuma, 2.71828, Hydrad, EgorK, Limetime, Teproc, Witherweaver, scott_pilgrim
With 11 players alive, it takes 6 to lynch. Day Two will end Sunday, March 27th, 7 am. forum time.
THREAD UNLOCKED.
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Where the Doctors at?
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gkrieg13 the Innocent Child was killed in the Night![/b][/color]
I think this means it is highly likely that there is scum in the Doctor group.
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Whoever performed the action in the Doctor neighborhood is presumably scum Or they didn't target gkrieg, which would be so terrible.
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Whoever performed the action in the Doctor neighborhood is presumably scum Or they didn't target gkrieg, which would be so terrible.
That would be the implication. We don't have an IC to make executive decisions anymore, but I do think that we should consider at this point claiming neighborhoods and then lynch from among the claimed doctors as it appears something is rotten in the neighborhood of doctors.
There is conceivably another explanation, but I don't want to be the one to provide it...
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There is conceivably another explanation, but I don't want to be the one to provide it...
Actually there are two... one involves the Roleblocker, but I think that would implicate both the doctor and roleblocker neighborhoods...
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Whoever performed the action in the Doctor neighborhood is presumably scum Or they didn't target gkrieg, which would be so terrible.
That would be the implication. We don't have an IC to make executive decisions anymore, but I do think that we should consider at this point claiming neighborhoods and then lynch from among the claimed doctors as it appears something is rotten in the neighborhood of doctors.
There is conceivably another explanation, but I don't want to be the one to provide it...
Doc could've been roleblocked.
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Whoever performed the action in the Doctor neighborhood is presumably scum Or they didn't target gkrieg, which would be so terrible.
That would be the implication. We don't have an IC to make executive decisions anymore, but I do think that we should consider at this point claiming neighborhoods and then lynch from among the claimed doctors as it appears something is rotten in the neighborhood of doctors.
There is conceivably another explanation, but I don't want to be the one to provide it...
Doc could've been roleblocked.
Sure... But I for one don't buy into coincidences. First what was the roleblock neighborhood doing trying to roleblock someone in the first place?
Second... how did the mafia know the doctor was going to be blocked or who they should block? That is a risky move if they aren't sure they will be able to get the block through. In the end the Doctor group still looks the worst.
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Vote: Teproc
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Oh yeah. Scum would've just reported who the Doctor was saving and their plans could've been made around that.
So there's definitely Mafia in the Doctor QT.
PPE
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Sure... But I for one don't buy into coincidences. First what was the roleblock neighborhood doing trying to roleblock someone in the first place?
Second... how did the mafia know the doctor was going to be blocked or who they should block? That is a risky move if they aren't sure they will be able to get the block through. In the end the Doctor group still looks the worst.
YOu do know that the mafia can issue their kill after all neighborhood actions are locked in?
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The by far most likely explanation is that Joseph was in the Doctor neighborhood, and scum wanted him dead. I think if Joseph was in that neighborhood, then one of the Docs needs to claim that.
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Whoever performed the action in the Doctor neighborhood is presumably scum Or they didn't target gkrieg, which would be so terrible.
That would be the implication. We don't have an IC to make executive decisions anymore, but I do think that we should consider at this point claiming neighborhoods and then lynch from among the claimed doctors as it appears something is rotten in the neighborhood of doctors.
There is conceivably another explanation, but I don't want to be the one to provide it...
Doc could've been roleblocked.
Wait... you are a Roleblocker, right? Did you perform a roleblock tonight?
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You = your neighborhood
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Sure... But I for one don't buy into coincidences. First what was the roleblock neighborhood doing trying to roleblock someone in the first place?
Second... how did the mafia know the doctor was going to be blocked or who they should block? That is a risky move if they aren't sure they will be able to get the block through. In the end the Doctor group still looks the worst.
YOu do know that the mafia can issue their kill after all neighborhood actions are locked in?
I did know this, but I am not sure what you are signifying with it?
And there is one other possible explanation, but I want to hear it, not give that explanation. Faust do you agree that the doc neighborhood should come forward as a group, and if not we force it by having everyone else claim their neighborhood...?
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Sure... But I for one don't buy into coincidences. First what was the roleblock neighborhood doing trying to roleblock someone in the first place?
Second... how did the mafia know the doctor was going to be blocked or who they should block? That is a risky move if they aren't sure they will be able to get the block through. In the end the Doctor group still looks the worst.
YOu do know that the mafia can issue their kill after all neighborhood actions are locked in?
I did know this, but I am not sure what you are signifying with it?
And there is one other possible explanation, but I want to hear it, not give that explanation. Faust do you agree that the doc neighborhood should come forward as a group, and if not we force it by having everyone else claim their neighborhood...?
I mean that mafia could have known whether the Roleblockers blocked the Doc when they decided who to kill. I guess there is still a chance that the Roleblocker doesn't perform their action.
I think first we need to know whether Joseph was a Doctor. For this, it suffices to have a single Doc claim.
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Sure... But I for one don't buy into coincidences. First what was the roleblock neighborhood doing trying to roleblock someone in the first place?
Second... how did the mafia know the doctor was going to be blocked or who they should block? That is a risky move if they aren't sure they will be able to get the block through. In the end the Doctor group still looks the worst.
YOu do know that the mafia can issue their kill after all neighborhood actions are locked in?
I did know this, but I am not sure what you are signifying with it?
And there is one other possible explanation, but I want to hear it, not give that explanation. Faust do you agree that the doc neighborhood should come forward as a group, and if not we force it by having everyone else claim their neighborhood...?
I mean that mafia could have known whether the Roleblockers blocked the Doc when they decided who to kill. I guess there is still a chance that the Roleblocker doesn't perform their action.
I think first we need to know whether Joseph was a Doctor. For this, it suffices to have a single Doc claim.
I guess what I am saying is for that to happen there would need to be at least one scum in both the RB neighborhood and at least one scum in the doc neighborhood. Right now it looks like there is just one in the scum, but if the roleblockers did block the doc... again why were they blocking at all is a valid question... it would either require a conincidence (unlikely) or scum in both neighborhoods (more likely)...
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Agreed that it's not a very likely scenario. And scum would have to work to get them to block the right person, which would be very suspicious.
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I know I haven't been super-towny, but lynching me would be bad for town.
This indicates that Joseph is as Doc.
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I know I haven't been super-towny, but lynching me would be bad for town.
This indicates that Joseph is as Doc.
And if mafia knew this beforehand, this either means scum is in the Doc neighborhood OR is in all three of the others and could deduce.
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I know I haven't been super-towny, but lynching me would be bad for town.
This indicates that Joseph is as Doc.
And if mafia knew this beforehand, this either means scum is in the Doc neighborhood OR is in all three of the others and could deduce.
Or that they correctly interpreted the quote above.
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I know I haven't been super-towny, but lynching me would be bad for town.
This indicates that Joseph is as Doc.
And if mafia knew this beforehand, this either means scum is in the Doc neighborhood OR is in all three of the others and could deduce.
Or that they correctly interpreted the quote above.
Well, yes. But I thought you were arguing that mafia pushed for his lynch from the beginning of day. He made that statement at L-1. Mafia wouldn't have known without insider information his neighborhood before this... Oh, this is why you are voting Teproc, because he hammered Joseph? I could see that argument...
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I do think we should claim now.
And yes, Joseph's statement was a softclaim that probably meant he was a Doctor. It was also super scummy, precisely because it was a softclaim and those are the worst : they're all self-preservation with no clarity for town.
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I do think we should claim now.
Who's "we"? I'm all for scum claiming, yes.
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I do think we should claim now.
Who's "we"? I'm all for scum claiming, yes.
What's with the agressivity ?
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I do think we should claim now.
Who's "we"? I'm all for scum claiming, yes.
What's with the agressivity ?
Your hammer is far and wide the scummiest thing that happened.
And again, what do you mean "we" should claim? Everyone should claim? Why?
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I do think we should claim now.
Who's "we"? I'm all for scum claiming, yes.
What's with the agressivity ?
Your hammer is far and wide the scummiest thing that happened.
And again, what do you mean "we" should claim? Everyone should claim? Why?
What's scummy about it ? Aside from, you know, Joseph flipping town ?
Yes. Once we start claiming, it seems to me we should go all the way. I might be wrong on that... I'm frankly a bit skeptical that our PRs can be used in any effective manner at all frankly. Is there a reason to only claim Doctors ?
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Vote: Limetime
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Joseph was Doctor, hence me not wanting to lynch him yesterday. I actually thought he was scum, but I thought it best to not pursue him until later, obviously.
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What's scummy about it ? Aside from, you know, Joseph flipping town ?
- not waiting until the IC had a chance to comment.
- making it look like a derphammer in case you want to play that card later on
- the IC dying tonight.
Is that enough for you?
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If not, add lynching a softclaimed Doctor.
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Yes. Once we start claiming, it seems to me we should go all the way. I might be wrong on that... I'm frankly a bit skeptical that our PRs can be used in any effective manner at all frankly. Is there a reason to only claim Doctors ?
Is there a reason to claim anything else?
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Making it look like a derphammer ? What ?
I got that he softclaimed Doctor. That is in fact why I wanted to lynch him (well, I already thought he was scummy before). I completely disagree with the idea that we shouldn't lynch pepole because they held speicfic roles. Let's be clear : our roles all suck anyway. Also, the IC dying isn't that big of a deal. Is it so much worse to have gkrieg die than yuma ? It's worse, but come on, it's not that different.
Why would the IC... what ? Comment on what ? There was a clear consensus against claiming. If anyting, your obsession with gkrieg deciding anything is scummy. He's the least qualified player in the game to take a decision, as he has the least information.
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Is it so much worse to have gkrieg die than yuma ? It's worse, but come on, it's not that different.
it's quite a bit worse. If yuma was shot today, then scum would have trouble killing the IC tomorrow, and maybe we have a no-kill.
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Vote: Teproc
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I mean I've talked about reading yuma before, it's not really something I can do, so I'm completely neutral about this lynch. I've no idea if scum!teproc is more likely to do this anti town hammer than town!teproc
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He was scumzorz yesterday and scumzorzer today.
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Making it look like a derphammer ? What ?
Wait, I'm not voting Joseph ?
vote: Joseph
There you go. The softclaiming only solidified it for me. Don't care about the wagon itself, that's putting way too much trust in day 1 reads if you don't want to lynch a wagon just because your town reads (which are just that, because gkrieg is the only IC here) aren't on it.
Nothing in this post indicates to me that you are aware it is a hammer vote.
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I mean I've talked about reading yuma before, it's not really something I can do, so I'm completely neutral about this lynch. I've no idea if scum!teproc is more likely to do this anti town hammer than town!teproc
It's not an anti-town hammer ! That's confirmation bias talking because Joseph flipped town talking.
Your point above is ridiculous because it assumes we never lynch anyone in the doctor QT, which assumes we claim the Doctor QT? which we weren't doing !
This is insane.
PPE : Well, always assume I am aware of the vote count, because I generally am, and I was.
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He was scumzorz yesterday and scumzorzer today.
You're better at reading me than this.
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Your point above is ridiculous because it assumes we never lynch anyone in the doctor QT, which assumes we claim the Doctor QT? which we weren't doing !
We absolutely should not have lynched a Doctor D1, and I spent multiple posts on D1 explaining why.
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It's not an anti-town hammer ! That's confirmation bias talking because Joseph flipped town talking.
I don't know about that, we have an IC, he should be giving last words to lynches.
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And if nothing else, the hammer was anti-town because it cut the day short at a point where lots of interesting discussion could have happened.
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Also it prevented us from lynching Teproc yesterday!
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Maybe hinsight and not confirmation bias, but you get what I mean. There's nothing anti-town about my hammer in principle. It was a lynch of the scummiest player around.
Do I really need to explain why his softclaim was scummy as hell ? Or is that somehow not relevant because I turned out to be wrong ?
PPE : Right, so "anti-town" is "I disagree with faust on theory", got it.
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I'm also fairly suspicious of how the RR wagon dissolved after Joseph started tto gain traction. If for some reason we decide to not lynch Teproc, this should be the alternative.
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Do I really need to explain why his softclaim was scummy as hell ? Or is that somehow not relevant because I turned out to be wrong ?
No, please. Explain.
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Your point above is ridiculous because it assumes we never lynch anyone in the doctor QT, which assumes we claim the Doctor QT? which we weren't doing !
We absolutely should not have lynched a Doctor D1, and I spent multiple posts on D1 explaining why.
You did. I disagreed. Deal with it.
Waiting for the IC to hammer is not a thing, it's never been a thing and it will never be a thing because ICs are the least insightful people around.
PPE : We had agreed not to claim, so Joseph's softclaim was threatening to break the only upside we had from not claiming, which was that scum didn't control our PRs if they didn't know who had which roles. So Joseph was doing this out of pure self-preservation, which is fine, but also trying to appear as if he was not doing that (because he was softclaiming rather than actualclaiming, which is very scummy : it's trying to not get lynched, breaking town consensus without having to be held accountable for it.
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PPE : We had agreed not to claim, so Joseph's softclaim was threatening to break the only upside we had from not claiming, which was that scum didn't control our PRs if they didn't know who had which roles. So Joseph was doing this out of pure self-preservation, which is fine, but also trying to appear as if he was not doing that (because he was softclaiming rather than actualclaiming, which is very scummy : it's trying to not get lynched, breaking town consensus without having to be held accountable for it.
1. There was no consensus.
2. "scum didn't control our PRs if they didn't know who had which roles" - what does that even mean?
3. There is always accountability if two other players know your role, so your argument does not hold water.
4. If you thought Joseph softclaimed an important role, why did you not try to get confirmation (and acountability) by forcing him to claim?
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1. Wrong. There was you, and everyone else, and you were trying to say "but the IC must decide", and gkrieg wasn't taking a strong position.
2. If scum knows player A holds power X, they can neutralize power X by kiling player A. That's, like, the whole point to not claiming...
3. Fine. He was still trying to have his cake and eat it too, as it were. Basically he was trying not to appear as if he was claiming because he knew we weren't supposed to (because there was a consensus among non-faust players about that), but still get the pass from being a doctor.
4. I didn't want him to claim who else was in the neighborhood, whcih I thought was where he would be going if pressed.
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1. Wrong. There was you, and everyone else, and you were trying to say "but the IC must decide", and gkrieg wasn't taking a strong position.
That doesn't fit the definition of consensus to me, even if it were true.
2. If scum knows player A holds power X, they can neutralize power X by kiling player A. That's, like, the whole point to not claiming...
This is irrelevant because there is no single player A holding power X.
4. I didn't want him to claim who else was in the neighborhood, whcih I thought was where he would be going if pressed.
If you assume he is scum, then there would be no downside to him claiming his neighbors...
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Also I think my intent-to-hammer RR post very clearly set a precedent for how you should be going about preventing people at L-1 from claiming their neighbors.
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2. If scum knows player A holds power X, they can neutralize power X by kiling player A. That's, like, the whole point to not claiming...
This is irrelevant because there is no single player A holding power X.
4. I didn't want him to claim who else was in the neighborhood, whcih I thought was where he would be going if pressed.
If you assume he is scum, then there would be no downside to him claiming his neighbors...
To 3 : are you being purposefully obtuse ? If someone in the Doctor neighborhood is killed, then there's no Doctor power the next night, that's what I mean...
To 4 : I thought he was scum, I didn't asume so, because that's mafia 101...
I need a reality check here : am I the only one who thinks faust is grasping at straws here ?
PPE : I don't know why we nee dintent to hammer when people are not supposed to claim. To be more precise : I know we don't.
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2. If scum knows player A holds power X, they can neutralize power X by kiling player A. That's, like, the whole point to not claiming...
This is irrelevant because there is no single player A holding power X.
I think I may have gotten you wrong. You say you were afraid of scum "controlling" the power Joseph held...? Why did you not just let them try then? Having Joseph killed by scum seems way better than lynching him.
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PPE : I don't know why we nee dintent to hammer when people are not supposed to claim. To be more precise : I know we don't.
You claim that the softclaim was bad because it brings all the downsides of a claim without the upsides. If that's so, it makes no sense to not have a player who already softclaimed full claim.
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That's the reason I was against claiming. THe reson I wanted to lynch Joseph was because I thought he was scum. Do you generally let people alive to see if scum will kill them ? Not really, because there's massive WIFOM there, especially in this setup where scum might not carein the least about Doctors, because if they have someone in that neighborhood they'll never get a kill blocked anyway.
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PPE : I don't know why we nee dintent to hammer when people are not supposed to claim. To be more precise : I know we don't.
You claim that the softclaim was bad because it brings all the downsides of a claim without the upsides. If that's so, it makes no sense to not have a player who already softclaimed full claim.
I'mnot sure what you mean. Do you mean Joseph should have claimed who else was in the Doctor neighborhood ?
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That's the reason I was against claiming. THe reson I wanted to lynch Joseph was because I thought he was scum. Do you generally let people alive to see if scum will kill them ? Not really, because there's massive WIFOM there, especially in this setup where scum might not carein the least about Doctors, because if they have someone in that neighborhood they'll never get a kill blocked anyway.
But they have to leave the IC alive all game...
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PPE : I don't know why we nee dintent to hammer when people are not supposed to claim. To be more precise : I know we don't.
You claim that the softclaim was bad because it brings all the downsides of a claim without the upsides. If that's so, it makes no sense to not have a player who already softclaimed full claim.
I'mnot sure what you mean. Do you mean Joseph should have claimed who else was in the Doctor neighborhood ?
No, he should have claimed to be a Doctor.
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PPE : I don't know why we nee dintent to hammer when people are not supposed to claim. To be more precise : I know we don't.
You claim that the softclaim was bad because it brings all the downsides of a claim without the upsides. If that's so, it makes no sense to not have a player who already softclaimed full claim.
I'mnot sure what you mean. Do you mean Joseph should have claimed who else was in the Doctor neighborhood ?
No, he should have claimed to be a Doctor.
He had done that already with his softclaim. I guess I could have asked him clearly in case he wanted to claim something else, which would have made him even more obvscum, but since I was pretty convinced already, I didn't see the point.
@faust : Only if we agree to never lynch anyone in the DOctor QT, which I think is dumb.
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Also, I'm done with this, because my Internet connection is poor and I've made my points.
You guys are way, way overestimating the usefulness of our PRs. They only get somewhat good once we lynch scum.
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Sure... But I for one don't buy into coincidences. First what was the roleblock neighborhood doing trying to roleblock someone in the first place?
This is ridiculous. Using prs is a thing. Implying that certain neighborhoods should not use a pr is ridiculous in my opinion.
Like the saying goes, "vigs gonna vig"
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I'm also fairly suspicious of how the RR wagon dissolved after Joseph started tto gain traction. If for some reason we decide to not lynch Teproc, this should be the alternative.
That was because of my great defense.
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Sure... But I for one don't buy into coincidences. First what was the roleblock neighborhood doing trying to roleblock someone in the first place?
This is ridiculous. Using prs is a thing. Implying that certain neighborhoods should not use a pr is ridiculous in my opinion.
Like the saying goes, "vigs gonna vig"
Roleblocking does literally nothing good as long as more than one scum is alive.
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He had done that already with his softclaim. I guess I could have asked him clearly in case he wanted to claim something else, which would have made him even more obvscum, but since I was pretty convinced already, I didn't see the point.
@faust : Only if we agree to never lynch anyone in the DOctor QT, which I think is dumb.
Well, I didn't get it, and would hav eunvoted in a heartbeat if I did. But I get that it's easier to pick up if you already know that Joseph is a Doc.
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lots of arguing going on. Anyone want to tl:dr
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So I also think Teproc's hammer is super scummy, given that Joseph was a doc. I'm not sure if I agree with some of the reasons faust is giving though. Let me try to explain why I think it's scummy.
It is completely possible that town would hammer there. But the thing is, if scum knows that Joseph is a doc (and I assume they did, since they killed gkrieg), and he's sitting there at L-1, they super want to hammer him. Like, that just hands them a free IC kill. So I think in that situation, with a doc at L-1, the first scum to come online and see the situation just hammers (you know, assuming they think they can get away with it, which was completely reasonable in that particular situation). So that's why I think it's a lot more likely that whoever hammered there was scum than town. It's not that town couldn't have done that, it's just that it's a lot more likely that scum would have done that. And given that that person was Teproc, who I already had a scum read on, it just makes everything look even worse for him.
vote: Teproc
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Also, I think we should think about how likely it is that scum is in the doc QT, or all three of the other QT's (or I guess if they took Joseph's soft claim as good enough evidence to kill the IC, though I think this is probably less likely). I'll try to work out the probabilities later but I don't think I really have time now. This could give us some insight as to where scum is and might make it worth mass claiming.
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Once again, way, way overestimating how scared scum must be of those PRs/how important it is for them to kill the IC.
You are in fact completely contradictory : implying I *knew* Joseph was a Doctor because I'm scum... in which case I really don't care about killing a Doctor because it means that scum is in the Doctor QT and thus doesn't care about that power at all.
PPE : didn't we do this already on day 1? It came in somewhere under 50% I think ? Well, the "scum being in 3 QTs and having full info" part at least.
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vote: S_P
Could vote faust as well. Call it OMGUS if you want, but there's crazy rationalization going on here, to the point that I can't believe it's genuine.
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I feel like ash. It's weird.
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Actually.
vote: RR
And FoS on e too, but he was very townie day 1. Coming in and commenting on unrelated stuff to the main conversation, nice way to participate but wait till they see who's lynchable in this mess. yuma at least asked people to sum up (which we won't, you'll have to read it all, so hard I know), that's vaguely passable.
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Actually.
vote: RR
And FoS on e too, but he was very townie day 1. Coming in and commenting on unrelated stuff to the main conversation, nice way to participate but wait till they see who's lynchable in this mess. yuma at least asked people to sum up (which we won't, you'll have to read it all, so hard I know), that's vaguely passable.
Vote: Teproc
Call it blatant OMGUS, but I have other reasons.
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Actually.
vote: RR
And FoS on e too, but he was very townie day 1. Coming in and commenting on unrelated stuff to the main conversation, nice way to participate but wait till they see who's lynchable in this mess. yuma at least asked people to sum up (which we won't, you'll have to read it all, so hard I know), that's vaguely passable.
Vote: Teproc
Call it blatant OMGUS, but I have other reasons.
What other reasons?
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Actually.
vote: RR
And FoS on e too, but he was very townie day 1. Coming in and commenting on unrelated stuff to the main conversation, nice way to participate but wait till they see who's lynchable in this mess. yuma at least asked people to sum up (which we won't, you'll have to read it all, so hard I know), that's vaguely passable.
Vote: Teproc
Call it blatant OMGUS, but I have other reasons.
Ugh. Ugh ugh ugh.
Just because you reference OMGUs doesn't mean it isn't. If you had "other reasons", why didn't you vote for me (or comment on the discussion relating to me at all) when you posted earlier ?
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My wagon is : people I called scummy (and WW for some reason). Good thing I hammered Joseph !
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Good thing I hammered Joseph !
What type of town player says this?
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Vote: teproc for hammering
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L-1. That way you can know the guy who votes next will be scum, because I guess that's how mafia works now ?
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L-1. That way you can know the guy who votes next will be scum, because I guess that's how mafia works now ?
Something something snarky comment about your sig ~!
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L-1. That way you can know the guy who votes next will be scum, because I guess that's how mafia works now ?
Something something snarky comment about your sig ~!
I actually did defend myself, which I usually don't do. And I'm getting lynched for something I did earlier, something which isn't even scummy !
Seriously though, look at my wagon. It's people I called scummy, two of which have long, nonsensical rationalizations of why my hammer is the scummiest thing that's happened since mafia's been invented, and a bunch of lazy, unexplained votes.
Why are you voting for me again ?
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And yes, I do realise I'm being scummy, because I always sound scummy when I defned myself, but I can't really just let myself be lynched, that doesn't help town much either.
This wagon is bad, and you should all feel bad. WW especially. faust and S_P are scum, so whatever, RR might be too and Limetime is new, so fine. But you ? Reread me, man. Your initial gut read is wrong. Remember.... whatever the game was where I quoted my QT for the first time ? Marvel Heroes. You thought I was scum there too, and you were wrong. Maybe you're not that great at reading me after all !
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vote: faust actually. RR being scummy's not really a tell, but faust, that's significant.
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Let's not lynch teproc yet guys
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I'm leaning toward not lynching Teproc period after the last couple of posts.
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Unvote
Scummy hammers are still bad.
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on faust my gut says scum. But I can't put into words why. Maybe because he's overconfident in the Teproc thing...
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Unvote
Scummy hammers are still bad.
Ok, I'm getting really annoyed now.
Either you think I'm scum or I don't.
If you do, you should be voting for me. If you don't, you shouldn't. Now maybe my latest posts have instilled doubt, in which case sure, unvote away. But if you're only unvoting because I'm at L-1 and it's "too early" or whatever, that's bullshit, and exactly the weird mentality that leads to thinking my hammer is scummy (it isn't). Lynching is part of the game. Lynching is, in fact, the way town wins ! Lynching is not a scary thing ! If you think I'm scum, you should be glad I'm at L-1 !
Because look at your votes here. You first vote for me after a wagon forms, for reasons that preceded the wagon but you weren't willing to vote before ? Why ? Then you're unvoting because people are worried I'm getting lynched. You knows what's happening ? You're being manipulated. Well either that or you're scum, but if you're town : you see how this is bad right ? You're going with whatever people who are present are saying. Think for yourself man.
Of course you might be scum, but some people in this game have to be town, so...
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Unvote
Scummy hammers are still bad.
Ok, I'm getting really annoyed now.
Either you think I'm scum or I don't.
If you do, you should be voting for me. If you don't, you shouldn't. Now maybe my latest posts have instilled doubt, in which case sure, unvote away. But if you're only unvoting because I'm at L-1 and it's "too early" or whatever, that's bullshit, and exactly the weird mentality that leads to thinking my hammer is scummy (it isn't). Lynching is part of the game. Lynching is, in fact, the way town wins ! Lynching is not a scary thing ! If you think I'm scum, you should be glad I'm at L-1 !
Because look at your votes here. You first vote for me after a wagon forms, for reasons that preceded the wagon but you weren't willing to vote before ? Why ? Then you're unvoting because people are worried I'm getting lynched. You knows what's happening ? You're being manipulated. Well either that or you're scum, but if you're town : you see how this is bad right ? You're going with whatever people who are present are saying. Think for yourself man.
Of course you might be scum, but some people in this game have to be town, so...
The problem is, because of this post, I can't re-vote. But I unvoted because we have gobs and gobs of time for talk of potential neighborhood claiming, and we do not need a quicklynch. And yes, your last few posts have made me doubtful.
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But if you're only unvoting because I'm at L-1 and it's "too early" or whatever, that's bullshit, and exactly the weird mentality that leads to thinking my hammer is scummy (it isn't). Lynching is part of the game. Lynching is, in fact, the way town wins ! Lynching is not a scary thing ! If you think I'm scum, you should be glad I'm at L-1 !
But if you lynch at the end of the day, then there is more discussion. I think the argument has merit.
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I know it has only been like 8 hours since I last posted but I am so out of this game... I'll get back to it soon... Maybe at a point when every one else isn't constantly posting...
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I know it has only been like 8 hours since I last posted but I am so out of this game... I'll get back to it soon... Maybe at a point when every one else isn't constantly posting...
see its annoying isnt it. i wake up and like 2-3 pages are posted.
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Sorry everyone can't be like you and post one in three days. That sure makes for some fun games of mafia.
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Sorry everyone can't be like you and post one in three days. That sure makes for some fun games of mafia.
sorry :(
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Never mind me, I'm just cranky because IRL stuff + this wagon here. But I'd rather people not complain about games being active. There is such a thing as too much activity, but it's much, much preferable to the reverse.
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on faust my gut says scum. But I can't put into words why. Maybe because he's overconfident in the Teproc thing...
Since when is overconfidence a scum tell for me?
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Never mind me, I'm just cranky because IRL stuff + this wagon here. But I'd rather people not complain about games being active. There is such a thing as too much activity, but it's much, much preferable to the reverse.
On that we can agree.
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vote: faust actually. RR being scummy's not really a tell, but faust, that's significant.
Why do you think I'm scummy besides OMGUS?
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ok so anyways. we are assuming Joeseph was a doctor right. If he wasn't and the doctors targetted someone other then the IC I think doctors should claim anyways as there is almost certainly a scum in your group.
The only other option is if scum either cancelled the doctor or they got roleblocked. Oh I guess they could of just not used the power either. But that would be kinda the first point where scum knew that the power wasn't used kinda thing.
So for now lets assume hes the doctor.
I guess we are at a base 50% that scum knew Joseph was a doctor by having 1 in each room.
uhhhh. I have no idea how to calculate the fact of having a scum in the doctor room... probably like another 30% or something? hmm thats just a guess from my head though.
ok so both are high chances.
But even if scum has the 1-1-1 setup there is a high chance that one of the 1's is in the doctor room still. So ya I feel like lynching from doctor is good today.
although then we might need a claim kinda thing. I think its best if only doctors claim but I guess hold off on that as someone might point something out to me and change my mind.
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Never mind me, I'm just cranky because IRL stuff + this wagon here. But I'd rather people not complain about games being active. There is such a thing as too much activity, but it's much, much preferable to the reverse.
No its fine. Hopefully you feel better soon!
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Vote Count when I get home this evening.
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Vote: Limetime
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I actually did defend myself, which I usually don't do. And I'm getting lynched for something I did earlier, something which isn't even scummy !
Regardless of my previous argument, hammering town is always scummy. The only exceptions are self-preservation and if there would be no lynch otherwise. You cannot seriously think that it's not scummy at all. You may disagree on the degree of scumminess.
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OK:
Catching up...
Questions I want to see answered as I follow-up:
Do we know if Joseph was a Doc? Because he certainly soft claimed it
WW seems to be implying he knew Joseph was a Doc. So he is a Doctor too?
Who are the other Docs, because scum is likely in that group?
Again, WW seems to be implying he was a Doc, but I am not seeing the other Doc. Maybe because they don't want to claim... but we can force the issue by having all neighborhoods claim...
Why did Teproc hammer Joseph likely knowing he was claiming Doctor?
Ok... Teproc hammered because he thought the soft claim was scummy. Ok. I guess I can see that reasoning. What I guess I don't understand is why Teproc can't even fathom why people would find it scummy. This is far more suspicious to me than the actual hammer. I think town!Teproc understands why people would find it scummy and own that.
I could vote for Teproc. But I would rather lynch from the Doctor group instead as I think it highly likely there is scum in there. Also I want to know what the Roleblockers did. RR can answer that as we know that he is from that QT. But that should happen after we find out who the Doctors are and what happened in their QT.
Also... I never said that I was annoyed with people posting... nor did Hydrad, just that neither of us had time and that given moment (Hydrad sometimes more often) to catch up to all of them immediately. Posting is almost always good... no one said it wasn't...
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I'll just do some math... if we assume scum knew that Joseph was a Doc, either they were in the Doc neighborhood or they were in all other three.
Chances that they were in all other three:
9/11*6/10*3/9=18/110=16.4%
Chances that they were in the Doc neighborhood:
2/11+9/11*2/10=38/110=34.5%
Both are not as far apart as I would have guessed.
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I'll just do some math... if we assume scum knew that Joseph was a Doc, either they were in the Doc neighborhood or they were in all other three.
I am not that concerned with them knowing Joseph was a Doc. I am concerned that they knew that gkrieg wasn't protected during the night and was thus a viable option to risk their night kill on.
If I am mafia I don't dare risk a kill on the IC unless I know for sure it isn't going through... So if gkrieg was targeted... and he was. I think it was because mafia knew that he wasn't going to be protected. How did they get that information... by having scum in the QT.
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If I am mafia I don't dare risk a kill on the IC unless I know for sure it isn't going through...
Should say "unless I know for sure it is going through...
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So our lynch pool is WW and whoever else is in his QT.
Should he tell us who it is?
PPE
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I just realized I miscalculated. Chances for scum to be in the Doc neighborhood are higher, actually 49.1%. So them knowing Joseph was a Doc because they were in his neighborhood is about three times as likely as them knowing it because they're in all other three neighborhoods.
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I'll just do some math... if we assume scum knew that Joseph was a Doc, either they were in the Doc neighborhood or they were in all other three.
I am not that concerned with them knowing Joseph was a Doc. I am concerned that they knew that gkrieg wasn't protected during the night and was thus a viable option to risk their night kill on.
If I am mafia I don't dare risk a kill on the IC unless I know for sure it isn't going through... So if gkrieg was targeted... and he was. I think it was because mafia knew that he wasn't going to be protected. How did they get that information... by having scum in the QT.
I don't follow. If scum knew that Joseph was a Doc, it follows that they also knew that gkrieg wasn't protected.
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I'll just do some math... if we assume scum knew that Joseph was a Doc, either they were in the Doc neighborhood or they were in all other three.
I am not that concerned with them knowing Joseph was a Doc. I am concerned that they knew that gkrieg wasn't protected during the night and was thus a viable option to risk their night kill on.
If I am mafia I don't dare risk a kill on the IC unless I know for sure it isn't going through... So if gkrieg was targeted... and he was. I think it was because mafia knew that he wasn't going to be protected. How did they get that information... by having scum in the QT.
I don't follow. If scum knew that Joseph was a Doc, it follows that they also knew that gkrieg wasn't protected.
Why? Just because Joseph is dead doesn't mean the Doc power stops working... Right? Or does it? I assumed that the power continued working because two players could still vote together to reach a majority and pick a target...
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sorry... just read the rules. He was lynched, thus cancelling the power... duh.
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I just realized I miscalculated. Chances for scum to be in the Doc neighborhood are higher, actually 49.1%. So them knowing Joseph was a Doc because they were in his neighborhood is about three times as likely as them knowing it because they're in all other three neighborhoods.
So then this is the number that we actually care about... But really, Joseph's soft claim really looked like a Doc claim so we are only comparing the the number of them actually knowing and the reality of them highly suspecting... Not nearly as strong as it could be...
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*sigh*
My whole theory talk D1 was based on the fact the we don't want to lynch Docs because we don't want to get the IC killed N1. I'm not sure if I can buy more of your "townslips".
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That also makes Teproc's hammer much, much worse. As it was extremely high, high risk.
This basically requires a vote on him. And even though that sounds like a policy lynch it certainly isn't... It is a reacting to scummy behavior vote. But vote count I guess is needed first...
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*sigh*
My whole theory talk D1 was based on the fact the we don't want to lynch Docs because we don't want to get the IC killed N1. I'm not sure if I can buy more of your "townslips".
Right. Cause people aren't allowed to forget things. Soooourrrrrry!
You know... sometimes it just isn't very fun to play with you.
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*sigh*
My whole theory talk D1 was based on the fact the we don't want to lynch Docs because we don't want to get the IC killed N1. I'm not sure if I can buy more of your "townslips".
Right. Cause people aren't allowed to forget things. Soooourrrrrry!
You know... sometimes it just isn't very fun to play with you.
Not all rainbows and butterflies?
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yuma, a couple of posts into the day, you post this:
That said, today is the only day that we don't have those preferences set by previous days. So I think it would be better to full house claim so that we can decide from which neighborhood(s) we want to lynch from the get go (I have ideas as I think others do as well) and ensure that we get to use the powers that we want tonight. Yes, to an extent we can do part of that by allowing for L-1 claims and such... but I have zero confidence in our collective ability to do that. Pessimist am I? Sure, but look around...
Were you aware at the time that lynching from a neighborhood blocks that power? Because it certainly reads that way...
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*sigh*
My whole theory talk D1 was based on the fact the we don't want to lynch Docs because we don't want to get the IC killed N1. I'm not sure if I can buy more of your "townslips".
Right. Cause people aren't allowed to forget things. Soooourrrrrry!
You know... sometimes it just isn't very fun to play with you.
It's just... a very crucial thing to forget. Also you softclaimed non-Doctor (which is fine I suppose, I guess if you were a Doc you would already have claimed).
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yuma, a couple of posts into the day, you post this:
That said, today is the only day that we don't have those preferences set by previous days. So I think it would be better to full house claim so that we can decide from which neighborhood(s) we want to lynch from the get go (I have ideas as I think others do as well) and ensure that we get to use the powers that we want tonight. Yes, to an extent we can do part of that by allowing for L-1 claims and such... but I have zero confidence in our collective ability to do that. Pessimist am I? Sure, but look around...
Were you aware at the time that lynching from a neighborhood blocks that power? Because it certainly reads that way...
Sure I believe that I did.
But that was 10 days ago and I am currently in 3 other games, designing two games, following one other game, have a full time job, a wife, a child, a remodel project going on, a garden to plant, a outdoor building project, three books I am reading, 4+ television shows I am watching, plus helping to plan a wedding. So please forgive me if occasionally forget a minor detail in a subset of rules in this game. A simple, yuma... you are forgetting this rule would be much nicer than this lovely condescension... I promise I'll be less passive aggressive if you stop too...
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*sigh*
My whole theory talk D1 was based on the fact the we don't want to lynch Docs because we don't want to get the IC killed N1. I'm not sure if I can buy more of your "townslips".
Right. Cause people aren't allowed to forget things. Soooourrrrrry!
You know... sometimes it just isn't very fun to play with you.
It's just... a very crucial thing to forget. Also you softclaimed non-Doctor (which is fine I suppose, I guess if you were a Doc you would already have claimed).
Or it could be an elaborate ruse to try and get mafia to not think that I am mafia so they don't kill me during the night... But I don't really do elaborate ruses as either alignment. You would think that you would know that...
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Okay. But. I don't think it really makes sense for scum!you to fake two townslips, when you were regarded as ICish after the first one already. So I guess you're town.
PPE: 1
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you're reading 3 books at a time? Interesting.
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Okay. But. I don't think it really makes sense for scum!you to fake two townslips, when you were regarded as ICish after the first one already. So I guess you're town.
PPE: 1
I think he could forget it as scum.
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yuma, a couple of posts into the day, you post this:
That said, today is the only day that we don't have those preferences set by previous days. So I think it would be better to full house claim so that we can decide from which neighborhood(s) we want to lynch from the get go (I have ideas as I think others do as well) and ensure that we get to use the powers that we want tonight. Yes, to an extent we can do part of that by allowing for L-1 claims and such... but I have zero confidence in our collective ability to do that. Pessimist am I? Sure, but look around...
Were you aware at the time that lynching from a neighborhood blocks that power? Because it certainly reads that way...
Sure I believe that I did.
But that was 10 days ago and I am currently in 3 other games, designing two games, following one other game, have a full time job, a wife, a child, a remodel project going on, a garden to plant, a outdoor building project, three books I am reading, 4+ television shows I am watching, plus helping to plan a wedding. So please forgive me if occasionally forget a minor detail in a subset of rules in this game. A simple, yuma... you are forgetting this rule would be much nicer than this lovely condescension... I promise I'll be less passive aggressive if you stop too...
Sorry if I came across that way. Just... you know, it is a game of deception, and I have to entertain the possibility that you try to manipulate me. That particular rule has been on the forefront of my mind all the time I played this game, and in fact it majorly shaped my thinking about the game (see for example my suspicion of Teproc). I guess I just assumed it was the same for others. I guess I thought I stated this loud and clear multiple times. Looking back at my posts though, it wasn't always very clear about that particular rule. So forgetting about it is probably more legitimate than I originally thought.
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Okay. But. I don't think it really makes sense for scum!you to fake two townslips, when you were regarded as ICish after the first one already. So I guess you're town.
PPE: 1
I think he could forget it as scum.
Not if scum killed gkrieg tonight, I don't think he could.
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you're reading 3 books at a time? Interesting.
/tangent
Oh yeah! Totally depends on the mood that I am in when I wake up on what book I take with me... Right now is:
Station Eleven - modern, apocalypse novel
The Story of the Lost Child - fourth book in a really good Italian series
The Insulted and Humiliated - A Dostoyevsky novel/memoir
I find it much, much easier to read the classics this way.... I have a hard time reading them straight through... which makes sense as many of them were released as serials.
/end tangent
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And I am not exactly happy that I forgot that rule. I mean... I don't like making a fool of myself. But it does explain why no one was jumping to the same conclusion that I was from the start of the game... also explains why I felt like we were talking past each other at the start of this day.
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Tss, tss.
8. Invisible text, font size less than 10, and spoiler tags are not allowed.
Ohmygosh how could you forget about that rule?
[I hope that doesn't come across as offensive in any way. I just want to poke a little fun. Lighten things up and stuff.]
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Tss, tss.
8. Invisible text, font size less than 10, and spoiler tags are not allowed.
Ohmygosh how could you forget about that rule?
[I hope that doesn't come across as offensive in any way. I just want to poke a little fun. Lighten things up and stuff.]
Ohmygosh how could you remember that rule?
I was going for the size that the quotes are in. So if font size must be 10 or larger than quotes shouldn't be allowed either...
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Remembered it due to REDACTED.
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Vote Count 2.1
Teproc (3): faust, scott_pilgrim, Limetime
faust (1): Teproc
Limetime (1): Witherweaver
Not Voting (6): silverspawn, yuma, 2.71828, Hydrad, EgorK, Roadrunner7671
With 11 players alive, it takes 6 to lynch. Day Two will end Sunday, March 27th, 7 am. forum time.
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Anyway. Teproc is scummy, but who else? Let's take a look at the Joseph wagon. First, I vote for him... others will be the jugde of that. Then:
I agree with faust on Joseph. I think this warrants Vote: Joseph
Pretty blatant sheeping. Not sure what to make of it. I think generally Egor was on the townier side D1.
While we're at it, since no one else is buying S_P as scum, I'll vote: RR.
Teproc has a chance to hop onto the wagon, but doesn't. Interesting. Same goes for silver the post after. He only later joins in on Joseph:
let me vote: Joseph
I don't know, that doesn't seem like scum play so much. Next is e.
I like the Joseph lynch
vote: joseph
Well that doesn't tell us much. Could easily be scum. Following is a typical RR post:
I'd be up for a Joseph lynch.
I also have been following this game but I really don't have anything to add.
It's fairly scummy because it doesn't fit with the whole "RR is afraid of lynches" meta.
Scott takes a whole series of posts to vote Joseph. First analyzing one of his posts, then posting a complete reads list, only to finally end up on Joseph. Well, I don't know. Scum likes to overexplain, but I also think scott does that in general.
Finally Hydrad:
Vote: Joseph
L-1!
I'm not convinced that this is scum!Hydrad. It's very ballsy if it is, because that vote will get ripped apart once Joseph flips. So on wagon, my reads are like
Teproc >> e > scott > Hydrad > Egor > silver
The award for scummiest off-wagoner goes to RR by a wide margin.
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There's an award? Do I get a prize?
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There's an award? Do I get a prize?
vote: RR
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There's an award? Do I get a prize?
vote: RR
I assumed someone would do this.
But I assumed my major award would be something more like this (NSFW):
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I just realized I miscalculated. Chances for scum to be in the Doc neighborhood are higher, actually 49.1%. So them knowing Joseph was a Doc because they were in his neighborhood is about three times as likely as them knowing it because they're in all other three neighborhoods.
Yeah, I just did it and this is what I got. Actually I got exactly three times as likely (so 0.75 chance scum is in the doc neighborhood).
Here's what I did, if for some reason someone wants to check it. The probability that scum is in the doc neighborhood is 1-(9*8*7)/(11*10*9)=0.4909 because for some reason all probabilities in this game are 0.4909. The probability that scum is in the three separate non-doc neighborhoods is (9/11)*(6/10)*(3/9)=0.1636. So assuming one of those two things happened, that gives us a 0.4909/(0.1636+0.4909)=0.75 probability that scum is in the doc neighborhood.
Okay I just realized this is wrong, because it doesn't take into account that the person making the calcs knows he is town. Here are the fixed calcs:
So first, if you're not a doc. The probability that scum is in the doc neighborhood is 1-(8*7*6)/(10*9*8)=0.5333. The probability that they are in three separate non-doc neighborhoods is (8/10)*(5/9)*(2/8)=0.1111. So the probability that scum is in the doc neighborhood is 0.8276. So that's noticeably better than the 0.75 I got before, but not by a whole lot.
Then, if you're a doc. The probability that scum is in the doc neighborhood is just 0.3. The probability that they are in three separate non-doc neighborhoods is (9/10)*(6/9)*(3/8)=0.225. So the probability that scum is in the doc neighborhood is 0.5714. So I'd think if you're a doc, you'd probably be voting the other doc right now.
Now there's also a chance that neither of those things is the case, and that they just went for gkrieg because of Joseph's soft claim. I think this is a small enough chance that it's not worth taking into account for now.
So this is actually interesting. My gut says let's make the docs claim and just lynch from among them, because 0.8276 sounds like a lot. But that's just the probability that one of the two of them is scum (it includes the possibility that both are scum, but that's pretty small). If we lynch one at random, we have a 0.4138 (slightly higher since they could both be scum) chance of hitting scum, which is only a little better than the 0.3 chance we have if we just lynch at random.
So it's something to keep in mind for later, but the difference seems small enough that it's not worth lynching someone over. If I didn't have any reads on anyone I'd probably want to lynch a doc. But I think Teproc has a much higher than 0.4 chance of being scum.
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I am out of step with everyone else I guess...
Lynching specifically out of the Doctor neighborhood is stupid. Joseph softclaimed doctor, so scum could have assumed gkrieg was a safe kill even if they weren't in there.
Furthermore, I'll adress this again : it's not so much that I can't fathom my hammer being scummy : to a certain extent any hammer on town is going to be scummy. But faust and others are behaving as if I quickhammered a PR ater 5 hours of play. I didn't, and just because YOU thought lynching people in the Doctor neighborhood doesn't mean that I thought that. In fact, I made my opinion on the subject quite clear during day 1, and no one seemed to think I was being crazy anti-town then, so... basically faust thinks I'm scum (or pretends to thinks that) because I disagree with him on theory. Which, as we all know, is a great, great way to scumhunt.
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And again S_P is producing massive content that doesn't actually commit him to anything real or amounts to any relevant interaction with anyone. Because that's the nice thing with probability, if you start with a false premise (that gkrieg being dead means there's scum in the doctor QT), you can make it say whatever you want. Why didn't we lynch him again ?
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I guess that's not super coherent : it does commit him, but in a way that gives him an excuse "well, the math said to lynch people in the doctor QT, so don't look at me".
It's also another way to appear to be active and constructive while actually doing nothing to advance the game.
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This post is so wrong (in my opinion) that I can't conceive reason for town!Teproc to do it. I have PPE: 5 pages though, so would not vote right away
2. If scum knows player A holds power X, they can neutralize power X by kiling player A. That's, like, the whole point to not claiming...
Still at the very least power may be used N1
4. I didn't want him to claim who else was in the neighborhood, whcih I thought was where he would be going if pressed.
Why would he do so? It was quite enough that no one would counterclaim him.
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So I also think Teproc's hammer is super scummy, given that Joseph was a doc.
I do not like this like at all. Assertiveness again of what is most likely but not necessarily true. This time (not like in WW slip case) not only scum know if this is true or not, but still
PPE: 4 pages
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You are in fact completely contradictory : implying I *knew* Joseph was a Doctor because I'm scum... in which case I really don't care about killing a Doctor because it means that scum is in the Doctor QT and thus doesn't care about that power at all.
Why one scum in Doctor QT neutralizes it? Even with 2 scum they have to heal IC, as otherwise 3rd player would out them
PPE: 4 pages
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Vote count?
Also I grew much more colder to Teproc lynch, but still would appreciate his comments on my points
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Ok, I guess I must be wrong ? Everyone disagrees with me apparently. What I don't get is that I made my view of this setup quite clear on day 1 and no one (except faust) batted an eye, so...
One scum in the doctor QT neutralizes it because it means doctor can never block a kill. Yes it can make it so the IC survives but... why everyone suddenly thinks ICs are the best thing since sliced bread, I have no idea.
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Ok, I guess I must be wrong ? Everyone disagrees with me apparently. What I don't get is that I made my view of this setup quite clear on day 1 and no one (except faust) batted an eye, so...
One scum in the doctor QT neutralizes it because it means doctor can never block a kill. Yes it can make it so the IC survives but... why everyone suddenly thinks ICs are the best thing since sliced bread, I have no idea.
Well, having IC is better then having no IC, don't you agree? Also this only barred us from lynching someone from Doctor QT D1, no?
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vote: Teproc
I guess I don't find what he did super scummy. To an extent it was and it wasn't ideal. But what I don't like is how he is responding to it.
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(L-2)
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I, personally, do not think Teproc is scum.
Should I claim who our neighborhood targeted?
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Should I claim who our neighborhood targeted?
I am not sure. I initially made that proposal on flawed premises... It does make that person ever so slightly less likely to be mafia...
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Ok, I guess I must be wrong ? Everyone disagrees with me apparently. What I don't get is that I made my view of this setup quite clear on day 1 and no one (except faust) batted an eye, so...
One scum in the doctor QT neutralizes it because it means doctor can never block a kill. Yes it can make it so the IC survives but... why everyone suddenly thinks ICs are the best thing since sliced bread, I have no idea.
Well, having IC is better then having no IC, don't you agree? Also this only barred us from lynching someone from Doctor QT D1, no?
Seems like a high cost to me, because it implies people claiming their role at L-1+intent, which I think was a bad idea because it removed the tiny chance our PRs might do something before N4 or so.
IC is better than no IC, but we would have lost a very townie player regardless. In fact I'm pretty sure I'd rather have a very townie non-IC player than an actual IC on day 2, because the latter has less information and is thus inevitably worse at scumhunting (because they're at a disadvantage). The later in the game it gets, the more valuable true ICness is, but gkrieg was never going to make it to the late game, so I, again, don't get why people act as if him dying was the greatest disaster of the 21st century.
Let's try and talk about something else though. WW, why Limetime ?
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I claim doctor. Joseph was a doctor. The other doctor can confirm.
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Ok. So the problem really here is two fold. One Joseph soft claimed. That compounded the problem because it gave scum an out to safely kill the IC. Second is that teproc hammered him.
This is why. Let's hypothesize that Joseph didn't soft claim but was still lynched:
there are two possibilities. Either scum knew who was in the Doc QT or they didn't.
1. If scum knew who was in the Doc QT they would know that joseph was a Doc and that they would have been able to kill gkrieg.
But would they have? I have to think they wouldn't. Why? Because the moment that gkrieg turned up dead, the rest of town would have to know that either scum was super risky (unlikely) or they had insider information (more likely). Thus the attention would turn to the Doc QT. At least someone in there would be highly suspicious. So there is some really good PoE.... Now 1 out of 2. So gkrieg would likely still be alive even though the Docs weren't able to do anything.
2. If scum didn't know who was in the Doc QT they wouldn't know that Joseph was a Doc and they wouldn't have dared to risk a NK on gkrieg. gkrieg would still be alive but we wouldn't have much information.
This is why joseph soft claiming hurt us. Not only did it cause the IC to die, but it safely gave the scum a reason to do it without the rest of us being able to pinpoint how they got that information. Because they already had it... as did everyone else. It robbed us of the chance to gain information from the IC's death. Now it is likely that scum just would have gone down route 2 regardless and not killed gkrieg. But they would have to need to kill gkrieg eventually and when they did we would get information from that kill. But right now. We have zero useful information from the IC dying. Normally that isn't something you get from an IC death. But in this game we should have
Now we can't blame Teproc for Joseph's soft claim. But we can respond to how he reacted to it. Which was to ensure that all of the above wasn't going to happen. Of course some of it wasn't going to happen regardless, once Joseph soft claimed, but some of it still could have happened... And that, to an extent is why people are suspicious of Teproc... or at least I think they should be.
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I claim doctor. Joseph was a doctor. The other doctor can confirm.
Not sure this was necessary...
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I claim doctor. Joseph was a doctor. The other doctor can confirm.
Not sure this was necessary...
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I mean, maybe not necessary but I don't think it hurts us that much. I don't think the last doctor should necessarily claim though
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I mean, maybe not necessary but I don't think it hurts us that much. I don't think the last doctor should necessarily claim though
It's WW.
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I mean, maybe not necessary but I don't think it hurts us that much. I don't think the last doctor should necessarily claim though
Pretty sure people can figure it out. I'm unclear on the general upside of claiming vs not claiming anything at this point.
PPE : Well.
Also... just talking about this is awkward which is why I'd kinda like a claim of neighborhoods, but : if the Motion Detector got a positive result, they should obviously claim it. If not... well I kinda think they should still, but then I'm in favor of claiming in general at this point.
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Actually. RR, do you know that for a fact ?
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Actually. RR, do you know that for a fact ?
He told me. I assumed he knew which QT he was in.
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Actually. RR, do you know that for a fact ?
He told me. I assumed he knew which QT he was in.
When was this ?
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Joseph was Doctor, hence me not wanting to lynch him yesterday. I actually thought he was scum, but I thought it best to not pursue him until later, obviously.
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Actually. RR, do you know that for a fact ?
He told me. I assumed he knew which QT he was in.
When was this ?
March 17th at 10:40
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Wow how did I miss that post.
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I obviously need to learn to read better.
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So in reviewing and reread there is a subset of people that I am particularly suspicious of... those who haven't gone to either side in the Teproc debate because regardless of his alignment, their silence is... well suspicious. It has been the main thing from today and their silence on it is becoming noticeable... enough for me to notice.
I generally don't like arguments that can spin either way, but I feel like in this case it works. If Teproc is scum I feel like his scum buddies aren't going to be the ones pushing this lynch as it burst out of the gates. They will be sitting back giving middling reads if saying anything at all... If he is town I can see some scum (but not all) sitting back and seeing if town can get itself into an easy mislynch (maybe with the help of one scum pushing harder than the rest):
Players who have suspected teproc strongly (strongly argued for his lynch/voted):
faust, SP
Players who have suspected teproc (voted, but with hesitation or without explanation or just strong suspicion without a vote):
ww, RR (initially voted), Limetime, EgorK (initially suspected), yuma
Players who haven't commented or have commented in the middle:
ss (says he can't read Teproc), hydrad, 2.7 (just said let's not lynch him yet)
Players who don't suspect teproc:
Egork (cooled off), RR (says he doesn't suspect now)
So... right now FOS: ss, hydrad, 2.7 and to an extent Limetime as well
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and during the reread I still feel mostly ok with a Teproc lynch.
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I actually have commented on the lynch later; I said I don't like it. I still don't like it.
and I don't your logic works in case of faust. I think scum!faust is more likely to take strong stances.
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I actually have commented on the lynch later; I said I don't like it. I still don't like it.
and I don't your logic works in case of faust. I think scum!faust is more likely to take strong stances.
ah, yes you did. I missed that.
I think my logic makes sense if Teproc is scum. Faust could be hard core bussing... But as always it is doubtful. We would need to consider it in the event that Teproc lived, but it wouldn't be my first guess..
But in the case of Teproc being town, I kinda alluded to this:
I generally don't like arguments that can spin either way, but I feel like in this case it works. If Teproc is scum I feel like his scum buddies aren't going to be the ones pushing this lynch as it burst out of the gates. They will be sitting back giving middling reads if saying anything at all... If he is town I can see some scum (but not all) sitting back and seeing if town can get itself into an easy mislynch (maybe with the help of one scum pushing harder than the rest):
It is possible that faust is scum. But I don't know if I can tell very well from how he is pushing if faust is scum or not, especially independent of Teproc's alignment. I mean... faust generally pushes hard as either alignment.
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faust generally pushes hard as either alignment.
yeah, but I think as scum he's less likely to be undecided for once.
I do agree with your approach for most other people.
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I agree with your logic yuma, but I happen to have town reads on all these people (e, HYdrad, silver). Convenient town reads, but hey, it is what it is. Silver is the only one I might consider here.
RR has had by far the scummiest response to the wagon, but... it's hard for me to know when RR being scummy means he's scum.
PPE : faust takes strong stanes as either alignment, true, because strong stances are pro-town. It feels fake to me here though. I should probably be voting S_P rather than faust though, so vote: S_P
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I don't think we should lynch him, in any case.
I might want to lynch the third doctor... or somene who's been flying under the radar. Not Teproc, SP, you, or Limetime.
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And again S_P is producing massive content that doesn't actually commit him to anything real or amounts to any relevant interaction with anyone. Because that's the nice thing with probability, if you start with a false premise (that gkrieg being dead means there's scum in the doctor QT), you can make it say whatever you want. Why didn't we lynch him again ?
I don't have time to catch up on everything else now but this makes it clear to me that you didn't even read my post, or else are trying to misrepresent it as badly as possible. I didn't start with the premise that gkrieg being dead means there's scum in the doc QT. That is literally the question I was asking: how likely is there to be scum in the doc QT, given that gkrieg was dead? My conclusion was, pretty likely. But not so likely that we should just lynch among the docs. I don't actually know what you think I was trying to do in that post, since you thought I assumed what I was asking and concluded literally the opposite of what I actually concluded.
But anyway, probability is important because sometimes you catch scum that way. It didn't happen here, but it could have, and someone needed to do it because it might have gotten us somewhere. I'm happy to go back and explain stuff in that post better if you'd like, but please don't make arguments about how I must be scum because I'm intentionally doing math in a way that's misleading, if you're not first going to actually read what I did.
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1. If scum knew who was in the Doc QT they would know that joseph was a Doc and that they would have been able to kill gkrieg.
But would they have? I have to think they wouldn't. Why? Because the moment that gkrieg turned up dead, the rest of town would have to know that either scum was super risky (unlikely) or they had insider information (more likely). Thus the attention would turn to the Doc QT. At least someone in there would be highly suspicious. So there is some really good PoE.... Now 1 out of 2. So gkrieg would likely still be alive even though the Docs weren't able to do anything.
This is actually a good point...I mean there's a lot of WIFOM there, but it is actually a good argument for them being less likely to have shot gkrieg with a someone in the doc neighborhood.
Yeah, the soft claim is really bad for us, it means the probabilities in my post are even less helpful than they would have been otherwise.
Okay I have to go now I'll finish catching up later.
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I don't think we should lynch him, in any case.
I might want to lynch the third doctor... or somene who's been flying under the radar. Not Teproc, SP, you, or Limetime.
*sigh*
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*sigh*
?
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WW is the third Doctor, you know. It was discussed just a few posts ago.
Also why should we not lynch Teproc?
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his defense reads frustrated town
vote: WW
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his defense reads frustrated town
vote: WW
I don't think it reads like town!Teproc at all. Can you provide examples of frustrated town!Teproc?
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his defense reads frustrated town
vote: WW
So I take it your impression of the "town slip" was only enough to grant one day of amnesty?
Why exactly do you want to lynch from the doctors again?
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If we aren't going the teproc route my preference would be 2.7 at this point... Or RR again
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If we aren't going the teproc route my preference would be 2.7 at this point... Or RR again
Why, exactly?
I'm not scummy.
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If we aren't going the teproc route my preference would be 2.7 at this point... Or RR again
Yeah, not so sure about this
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mhh I don't really want to try to dig up old Teproc games. I'll rather reread stuff here... such as WW and his town slip.
So far yuma and SP read towny and RR super scummy. I'll keep reasons for when I'm finished.
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mhh I don't really want to try to dig up old Teproc games. I'll rather reread stuff here... such as WW and his town slip.
So far yuma and SP read towny and RR super scummy. I'll keep reasons for when I'm finished.
SS, I think you need to face the fact that you can't read me.
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Facts for future:
My firstpost in the neighborhood QT was at 10:20 PM (EST) on March 6. Both other neighbors posted (one message each) before me. I posted a thought in there and there was no response.
There was no mod announcement to say who was in the neighborhood.
Thread locked at 7:00 PM (EST) on March 7. I'm assuming all of these (including scum QT) closed around the same time. That's enough time for scum to share who was in my neighborhood if one of my neighbors is scum.
That actually sounds kinda constructed now.
mhh I don't really want to try to dig up old Teproc games. I'll rather reread stuff here... such as WW and his town slip.
So far yuma and SP read towny and RR super scummy. I'll keep reasons for when I'm finished.
SS, I think you need to face the fact that you can't read me.
if you can make a setup probability appear that says you're town, I'll be happy to disregard my read!
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... SP is really towny. All of his posts are sober and make sense.
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... SP is really towny. All of his posts are sober and make sense.
Well except that's exactly what I expect from scum!scott. I'm not sure how big a conlusion you can draw from that.
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... SP is really towny. All of his posts are sober and make sense.
Well except that's exactly what I expect from scum!scott. I'm not sure how big a conlusion you can draw from that.
wouldn't he be less invovled?
Mh maybe I'm projecting now. I remember that we used to say scum is more involved. It's just that he seems to be legitimately trying.
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So, readin through I noticed that WW either had not noticed that scum has a daychat or cleverly planted fake townslip
I think pointing this out might be more towny than the slip itself.
Unless they're scum partners...
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I'm not saying we should lynch him... but he's really mostly null to me. Has he ever been scum?
PPE: 1
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Okay this is worse... he's not noticing it and then he casually gives it town points.... although it's still a reasonable town response, so mehhh
But anyway, the daychat thing makes you look pretty solidly towny to me now. I mean I suppose it's possible that you did some crazy mastermind nested fake slip thing, but if that's the case, I'm pretty sure we just lose and you get MVP.
I'm not saying we should lynch him... but he's really mostly null to me. Has he ever been scum?
PPE: 1
uhh I think he was scum in my first game? I'll look that up.
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Nope, he wasn't. I was thinking of Archetype. SP was in that game but was town.
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And then egork comes out of nowhere and makes me think oh... So unless WW is a god of slipping I think hes town. And I think egork is town as well then because if WW is town I think scum!egork would or kept quiet.
If WW flips scum I'd have to revisit that but right now i think both are town.
This reads like much more of a genuine reaction to me. townpoints to hydrad.
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I see that I gave WW obv!town status at that time. Well, I have a headache right now, maybe that turns me into a different person?
But really, RR seems very very scummy. Upon other things which I'll hopefully get to later look here:
And the only person with a townslip is WW.
NO NO LET US NOT CREATE MORE ICs ONE IS ENOUGH!!
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I'm actually feeling a bit sick. I think I'll have to finish later. And I'm only halfway done. This game is LONG when you read every post.
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If we aren't going the teproc route my preference would be 2.7 at this point... Or RR again
Yeah, not so sure about this
Well sure. But why shouldn't I be? Why are you townie? I have seen little reason from you to think otherwise...
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yeah... I am all on board the idea of lynching 2.7. I reread him and while that can be dangerous cause you just end up looking for scummy things and bias an all that, I still feel pretty good about it.
I mean... There just isn't much there.
For starters he is on the Joseph wagon. So were a bunch of other people. But like I said... for starters.. that just wasn't a good wagon. I said it was scummy (or at least wasn't townie) when it was going and I stand by that assertion.
But in looking at the rest....:
Day1:
- obsession with IC status, back-handily making sure he was including himself in that conversion on multiple occasions
Is this supposed to be some townslipfest?
So far (by my count) we have silverspawn, myself, WW, yuma...along with gkrieg as the real IC we should have no problem winning
And the only person with a townslip is WW.
False
Yeah. WW, silverspawn, yuma, and myself are all ICs along with gkrieg
And then like 3-4 other posts about how I am an IC and how WW is an IC in isolation, but continues to state how he is an IC as well (yes, he does give caveats, but still the implication is there)
I am also counting silverspawn and my non-PGO slip as town slips.
[snip]
Although those are much weaker. I think yuma's slip is the strongest.
Post that is delegitimizing the IC. Scummy. I don't like his throwing cold water on the RR wagon either. I still have doubts about RR (I'll admit this post is more bias than anything...) Basically he criticizes the wagon for being lazy votes... but his votes are just as lazy. Hydrad vote, the joseph vote
Day2:
Pretty much absent throughout. The day has been going for all that long I will admit, but still he has been one that was completely silent about Teproc, except to say that "we shouldn't lynch him yet"... whatever that means. If this isn't the definition of sitting back and observing to see how to make the next move I don't know what else is.
Also lurking because of Daychat is a thing in this game.
vote: 2.7
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Vote Count 2.2
Teproc (3): faust, scott_pilgrim, Limetime
Limetime (1): Witherweaver
scott_pilgrim (1): Teproc
Witherweaver (1): silverspawn
2.71828 (1): yuma
Not Voting (4): 2.71828, Hydrad, EgorK, Roadrunner7671
With 11 players alive, it takes 6 to lynch. Day Two will end Sunday, March 27th, 7 am. forum time.
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Maybe I should vote.
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Vote: Limetime
I still think going after doctors is the correct choice.
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Vote: Limetime
I still think going after doctors is the correct choice.
But why Limetime over WW?
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Vote: Limetime
I still think going after doctors is the correct choice.
Why? The doc part. Not why WW...
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Vote: Limetime
I still think going after doctors is the correct choice.
Why? The doc part. Not why WW...
I think the odds are the best for finding scum there basically.
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Vote: Limetime
I still think going after doctors is the correct choice.
Why? The doc part. Not why WW...
I think the odds are the best for finding scum there basically.
And again. I Am going to ask why?
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this case is crap because i am ic
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who is not IC?
ww is, yuma is, i am...
so loets vote for scums
vote: hydrad
always pesky scum that hides and look slitke town.
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Vote: Limetime
I still think going after doctors is the correct choice.
Why? The doc part. Not why WW...
I think the odds are the best for finding scum there basically.
And again. I Am going to ask why?
hmm. i guess if I was scum I wouldn't have caught onto Josephs semi claim there and trusted it enough to make the shot. So I just feel like scum probably was more certain to be able to do that. But maybe I'm just bad at the game :P
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I reread him and while that can be dangerous cause you just end up looking for scummy things and bias an all that, I still feel pretty good about it.
this is spuer townie. rereads to find a case are good.
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I guess the best game for frustrated town!Teproc would be College Mafia.
yuma's case on e is a bunch of things that are true but I don't find particularly scummy. Like e "pushing" for being an IC clearly feels like a joke to me, ŕ la Robz. As for the rest, well I disagree that the Joseph wagon was scummy in and of itself. I think you're glossing over a bunch of constructive posts, but I'd need to reread for myself.
I'm a little less convinced that faust is scum than I was before.
Still think Hydrad is town : every post he makes is pro-town. Granted he doesn't make a lot, but that's what you get with town!Hydrad. yuma is town, silver I'm still leaning town on...
That leaves us
RR, Limetime, EgorK, WW, S_P.
RR and S_P are by far my preferred lynches here... then faust and maybe Limetime. Don't feel strongly one way or the other about WW or EgorK.
Someone said S_P was super productive and stuff... is he though ? All his posts are certainly constructed with the goal of being perceived that way, but if you look at it he's always commenting on popular subjects and giving pretty safe opinions. Yeah he takes a stance on me, but if faust takes a strong stance you're generally pretty safe in following suit.
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Teproc, what do you think WW slip?
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*about
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Still think Hydrad is town : every post he makes is pro-town. Granted he doesn't make a lot, but that's what you get with town!Hydrad. yuma is town, silver I'm still leaning town on...
If you replace Hydrad by Egor in this, I fully agree.
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I guess the best game for frustrated town!Teproc would be College Mafia.
Thanks. I'm off to reread that one. This is how Teproc responds to pressure there:
I'm busy, and hindered by my last two scum games. I admit this is not exactly my greatest town performance ever, but that's life.
As for my reread, what exactly is so scummy about it ?
Very far off the reaction in this game. What follows is trying to convince the people voting for him that he's town, which is very different from the way he throws around loads of OMGUS here. He also rereads stuff and makes cases, whereas here most of his accusations are based on actions that happened recently... he completely ignores the Joseph wagon in his reads. Also this:
I might be getting more agressive than I mean too, sorry about that.
comes after being not nearly as aggressive as he is in this game.
Also, man, that game was awesome.
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It was not. It was the worst.
And yeah, I haven't done any rereads, because... I don't know, I don't feel like it. As far as the joseph wagon... it is worrying to me that my reads have changed very little after being wrong. But the Joseph wagon is hard for me to analyze because, well, Joseph was scummy and I don't find any of the otes on it particularly scummy.
It's a bit rich to accuse me of OMGUS here. You can't have it both ways and say my reads haven't changed from day 1 AND I'm OMGUSing people on my wagon. I suspected S_P and you before you suspected me, so how is it OMGUS on my part and not on yours ?
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REQUEST vote count
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ah I slept for over 13 hours. feel much better now
Still think Hydrad is town : every post he makes is pro-town. Granted he doesn't make a lot, but that's what you get with town!Hydrad. yuma is town, silver I'm still leaning town on...
If you replace Hydrad by Egor in this, I fully agree.
I agree with both of you! Hydrad and Egork have both been towny-- though Evork even more so
Someone said S_P was super productive and stuff... is he though ? All his posts are certainly constructed with the goal of being perceived that way, but if you look at it he's always commenting on popular subjects and giving pretty safe opinions. Yeah he takes a stance on me, but if faust takes a strong stance you're generally pretty safe in following suit.
Again, I don't feel like he's trying, I feel like he's just doing his thing genuinely.
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this case is crap because i am ic
But your PGO thing has nothing to do with your alignment.
And I don't think your posts about being an IC are jokes. He applied the same metrics to SS as himself. If it is a joke then it is getting in the way of his scum hunting and he also tried to stop the scum hunting of others. If it is a joke it has gone too far.
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I guess the best game for frustrated town!Teproc would be College Mafia.
yuma's case on e is a bunch of things that are true but I don't find particularly scummy. Like e "pushing" for being an IC clearly feels like a joke to me, ŕ la Robz. As for the rest, well I disagree that the Joseph wagon was scummy in and of itself. I think you're glossing over a bunch of constructive posts, but I'd need to reread for myself.
Still think Hydrad is town : every post he makes is pro-town. Granted he doesn't make a lot, but that's what you get with town!.
I disagree with both of these points. there wasn't much glossing over 2.7. Do what you say and reread today. There is nothing. Yesterday is mostly the IC stuff and then lazy votes and piggybacked theory talk. If you find a bunch of constructive posts let me know. Cause that means there is something wrong with by browser's search function...
And I guess I don't see the pro townness of hydrads posts.
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Vote: Limetime
I still think going after doctors is the correct choice.
Why? The doc part. Not why WW...
I think the odds are the best for finding scum there basically.
And again. I Am going to ask why?
hmm. i guess if I was scum I wouldn't have caught onto Josephs semi claim there and trusted it enough to make the shot. So I just feel like scum probably was more certain to be able to do that. But maybe I'm just bad at the game :P
Specifically I disagree about this. Not only does mafia have to realize that Joseph is a doc they have to feel confident that the rest of town will realize it as well. Otherwise we would immediately do what you are doing. Otherwise they are trading an IC kill for at least a 1:2 lynch. I don't thin that is a great deal and I don't think mafia would make it. Of course you then get into WIFOM.but this where that argument starts to fall apart due to risk perception.
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Onward.
It was a joke because you wrote PEE instead of PPE
Oh. what does PEE mean?
I still don't have an answer! You have to explain the joke!
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Faust, at some point you gotta clean up all that mess around your bookshelf. It's been there forever.
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Onward.
It was a joke because you wrote PEE instead of PPE
Oh. what does PEE mean?
I still don't have an answer! You have to explain the joke!
PEE means pee but in caps.
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Sorry, I'm an idiot, I thought this was the game that was already finished.
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I just realize now that Awaclus is not in this game. That's strange.
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Can we stop posting at night and posting from a parallel universe?
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Uhh I was preventing the RR lynch? That's ultra hyper scummy.
Who here is a 'RR expert?' The town could use your expertise right now!
erm, here. I don't think you're particularly scummy. I didn't know I was voting for you, unvote
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vote: RR let's lynch him now
Not quite finished yet, but I feel null to towny on all people who have had a big presence -- SP, Teproc, yuma, and maybe even faust
RR seemed to have a wagon for a really long time, then we seemed to come close to lynching him and the above happened. Man, my reads are crappy when I'm only reading along.
My issue with the RR wagon is mainly that it gives people an easy out. It started early, andas usual RR fails to do anything to make the wagon dissolve. That means that we have people on that wagon that didn't really do much of anything today and sit idly on their RR vote. Like Hydrad, I can't remember the last time he posted. Limetime has similar issues. Even silver's contributions so far have been sparse. yuma is really the only player on that wagon that seems genuinely interested in discussing other players.
This was kinda true at the time.
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This wagon is too easy to be town driven.
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This wagon is too easy to be town driven.
Which wagon?
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This wagon is too easy to be town driven.
Which wagon?
I plead the fifth
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RR is so confusing.
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so RR. Starts the game by joking a lot. For like his first 10 posts. Then he makes more jokes. For like his next 10 posts.
I'd encourage everyone to create some form of cryptology in their neighborhood to make it a day chat. Is this legal?
And this seems like a grab for towncred. I pointed you to the same rule when you had that question in GOP Mafia.
Nothing big so far though. This is what struck me as more significant:
Grabbing for towncred as town is a thing, yes? And I wasn't positive on the rules, some people have different interpretations, where/when do they apply, etc.
But man, I didn't do anything ever. And I'm getting lynched for it.
faust accused him of grabbing for towncred and his response is 'wouldn't I also do that as town?'
Then the second thing which struck me as significant is soon after (soon not in terms of how much stuff happens but how much stuff RR posts)
RR has been remarkably absent these last couple of hours.
Yep? What do you need?
This shows he's been actively following but not contributing. I used to do that as scum a lot; particularly back when I didn't prefer town.
Then his post which I pointed out earlier where he says WW is the only IC. Even though he is kind of right, because the people following... they are really not ICs. Think of it like this: you are scum, you notice that WW had this slip, if it was in fact a slip. Do you point it out? No, of course you don't. You hope that no-one notices it. So they could all be scum. I think the most towny one is Egork for pointing it out eventually.
But still, RR is scummy for saying it here, because I don't think he's thought it trough, I think he just doesn't want to have ICs around. Which also gives town cred to those non-ICs if RR flips scum.
Then he says he doesn't think he's scum here.
I'm a bad kid.
Also, what?
You put me at L-1, so I have to claim my neighborhood. Forcing me to do so is scummy.
and this is just really wrong
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runner-up is e for being totally in the background. The insinstance on ICs does not make him towny because if he's scum then scum doesn't mind the 'ICs'. Also doesn't make him scummy though.
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Oh, yeah. We can talk about Scout Mafia now. Until I botched my claim, SS was convinced I was town in that game.
In this game, he's convinced I'm scum.
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Vote: RR
Policy lynch for being annoying.
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Oh, yeah. We can talk about Scout Mafia now. Until I botched my claim, SS was convinced I was town in that game.
In this game, he's convinced I'm scum.
if you can make a setup probability appear that says you're town, I'll be happy to disregard my read!
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if you can make a setup probability appear that says you're town, I'll be happy to disregard my read!
[/quote]
There are 11 people still in this game. Three of them are Mafia. I have a 3/11 chance of being Mafia. Those aren't great odds.
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oh why didn't I think of that? you're so smart!
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if you can make a setup probability appear that says you're town, I'll be happy to disregard my read!
There are 11 people still in this game. Three of them are Mafia. I have a 3/11 chance of being Mafia. Those aren't great odds.
[/quote]
Well if we don't lynch anyone then there will be 3/10
Not sure who I am voting for but anyways vote: rr
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oh why didn't I think of that? you're so smart!
Yay! Where's the unvote?
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Well if 2.7 isn't going to take off, I am back to vote: Teproc
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So wagons. This is the RR wagon at peak:
Roadrunner7671 (6): gkrieg13, yuma, Hydrad, Limetime, silverspawn, Witherweaver
This is the Joseph wagon:
Joseph2303 (7): faust, EgorK, silverspawn, 2.71828, scott_pilgrim, Hydrad, Teproc
This is actually very interesting. Joseph and RR never voted for each other. Every other player voted for either RR or Joseph. silverspawn and Hydrad are the only ones who voted for both.
It does make me think that RR makes a lot of sense as scum, no? And that his wagon was probably quite townie? It seems unlikely that we had this kind of outcome if both are scum, because some scum might easily try to look townie by staying off both popular wagons, if they're in no danger of being lynched.
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It's interesting because in my head many people were switching from RR to Joseph. I guess that's wrong perception.
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Gotta stop trying to wagon town, yuma. It's against your wincon !
On a similar note, as no one else seems to be interested in lynching obvscum S_P, let's go with vote: Limetime
PPE : I never voted RR ? Huh. I might. I don't know. It feels like flipping a coin.
I also thought the wagons were pretty similar (including me being on both), which makes me a little doubtful the Joseph wagon was scum deflecting away from RR.
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Yeah yeah flipping a coin is actually great odds etc. etc. You get what I mean.
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Seriously Teproc. I would ask you to actually go back and reread and point to me one vote on Joseph that wasn't bad. Ok. Maybe more than one. Faust actually gave reasoning behind his own... and you will probably still say your vote was fine...
But go look at them.
#574 - faust's vote after a reread/read's list - gives reasoning, what you would expect from faust
#610 - egork sheeps
#628 - ss votes after a slew of joseph posts but gives no info. ss I am guessing that one of those posts made you vote for Joseph... which one was it?
#643 - 2.7 says he likes the joseph lynch... no information
#662 - SP wants to make the wagon 5 for his reasoning
#664 - Hydrad wanted to put him at L-1.
#680 - Teproc with the bad hammer
Again, not a single good vote in there except for faust, but that is null cause it is typical faust. I don't know how you can say it wans't a bad wagon. It is even worse in "quality" than what people were giving super bad beef about the RR one for... which I agree was valid. But everyone above voted and have been able to slip through and not be accountable at all except for Teproc with the hammer.
I 'm back to vote: 2.7 until I get some affirmation that people have actually reread him and have solid points to disagree with me. Right now I am just assuming everyone is glossing over and ignoring it.
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Hmm... yuma, what do you think about the thing I pointed out? It feels really big to me, am I way off in that perception?
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Hmm... yuma, what do you think about the thing I pointed out? It feels really big to me, am I way off in that perception?
Which thing is that again?
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My vote for Joseph was great, as I already explained. I seriously think JOseph was the best lynch for day 1, and still think so (on a theoretical level, obviously).
It seems you're conflating "I didn't think this guy was scum and I was right" with "this guy was obviously town and everyone on wagon is the worst". Which... I'm not gonna say you're necessarily wrong, I've done that too, but I'm just not going to agree with you on that. I see the wagon as fine because, well, I do think Joseph was very scummy, even before the softclaim. I will reread it though... sometimes today (game day).
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vote: teproc
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Such a "bad vote".
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I guess I should pay more attention to e too... let's see.
- obsession with IC status, back-handily making sure he was including himself in that conversion on multiple occasions
Hmm I guess. It makes lots of sense of silver is town, cleaning him while implicating he is town himself. Though... there is daychat. If you wanted to play the "e is IC" card, why not make another player point that out for additional legitimacy?
Basically he criticizes the wagon for being lazy votes... but his votes are just as lazy. Hydrad vote, the joseph vote
I don' think that's necessarily a scum tell.
Also lurking because of Daychat is a thing in this game.
I don't think I understand how daychat influences lurking?
Overall yeah, e doesn't look the best, but I feel a lot better about both Teproc and RR.
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Hmm... yuma, what do you think about the thing I pointed out? It feels really big to me, am I way off in that perception?
Which thing is that again?
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well again e is my second favorite option. But RR is my fav and he has the bigger wagon I think?
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On a similar note, as no one else seems to be interested in lynching obvscum S_P, let's go with vote: Limetime
And well this is such a lazy vote that it makes me want to lynch Teproc again.
Teproc, what do you think about my wagon analysis? Maybe you want to comment, seeing as that's currently the only thing keeping me from voting for you again?
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Hmm I guess. It makes lots of sense of silver is town, cleaning him while implicating he is town himself. Though... there is daychat. If you wanted to play the "e is IC" card, why not make another player point that out for additional legitimacy?
Because there is no legitimacy to be found there. He forget how the PGO worked. There is no ICness or townslip to be had there. But if you say, ss and I (along with the real ICs and people that had legit slips) are IC often enough people are going to start to absorb that. I know I did to an extent. It was only when I went back and looked for what the slip actually was... cause I coudln't remember... did I realize it was a bunch of crap.
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On a similar note, as no one else seems to be interested in lynching obvscum S_P, let's go with vote: Limetime
And well this is such a lazy vote that it makes me want to lynch Teproc again.
Teproc, what do you think about my wagon analysis? Maybe you want to comment, seeing as that's currently the only thing keeping me from voting for you again?
I will direct you to my post right after you did that wagon analysis ?
Look, I know I'm not exactly giving the best performance ever in this game, but if you ignore a third of my posts, it might explain how you find yourself wanting to vote for me.
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I don't think I understand how daychat influences lurking?
We haven't had Daychat in a game in a while. But this is the basic assumption behind it. Actually there are a few.
1. If you are talking in your daychat you aren't going to be talking here at the same time (this point is slight, but it is there. You have to read there, you have to read here.
2. This one is bigger. Let's say you have an idea. You post that you are going to post something in the day chat and then you have to wait until your partners get back to you. Sure you can post other stuff but that specific comment or idea is on hold. Say you want to buss someone, you are probably going to say in the day chat... "look out I am going to buss you, what do you think?" before you actually buss your partner. That delays your posting.
3. If people have easy access to post somewhere else they can tend to use that as a place to make sure something looks polished first. So that delays posting and leads to less posting.
And it is worth noting that this isn't just a scum phenomenon. In games where we have had people have open day talk neighborhoods or that one game where we had shared joint accounts people of town alignments did the same thing. They talked less here because they could talk somewhere else.
It doesn't always happen, but it has happened regularly that scum with day chat lurker more than scum without. Enough for me to consider it a "thing"
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Look, I know I'm not exactly giving the best performance ever in this game, but if you ignore a third of my posts, it might explain how you find yourself wanting to vote for me.
You mean this:
PPE : I never voted RR ? Huh. I might. I don't know. It feels like flipping a coin.
I also thought the wagons were pretty similar (including me being on both), which makes me a little doubtful the Joseph wagon was scum deflecting away from RR.
I don't even understand. What makes you doubtful the Joseph wagon was deflecting? That the wagons were similar? They were not, which is what I pointed out. What are the conclusions of this thought with respect to RR's alignment? I want more than some mysterious comment that could be interpreted in any way.
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Yes, no one is an IC, I thought everyone was clear on that ? WW has the most significatn townslip, but it's still just a data point, not a proof of anything.
Where is WW by the way ?
My Limetime vote is lazy why ? He fits a certain bill of newbie scum (scared to post, opportunistic voting), but I guess a vote that's not on someone you think is scum is automatically lazy and bad ?
PPE : Oh yeah, daychat. That also makes Limetime scummier. And S_P, who also intervenes once every three days because h's too busy posting there, but that's a lost cause apparently.
PPE2 : Just a second.
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I see. That makes sense. Though if e lurked here to make his posts more polished, then the result is a little disappointing.
Reminds me that RR also lurked uncharacterically much (exploiting your points for my own agenda!)
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Look, I know I'm not exactly giving the best performance ever in this game, but if you ignore a third of my posts, it might explain how you find yourself wanting to vote for me.
You mean this:
PPE : I never voted RR ? Huh. I might. I don't know. It feels like flipping a coin.
I also thought the wagons were pretty similar (including me being on both), which makes me a little doubtful the Joseph wagon was scum deflecting away from RR.
I don't even understand. What makes you doubtful the Joseph wagon was deflecting? That the wagons were similar? They were not, which is what I pointed out. What are the conclusions of this thought with respect to RR's alignment? I want more than some mysterious comment that could be interpreted in any way.
The wagon seemed to be similar, as you said, which makes me doubt it was deflecting. Basically, it seems to me the vast majority of town suspected both RR and JOseph (this is why there's the difference in perception and reality w/ regards to how similar the wagons really were). So scum didn't even need to deflect if RR was scum. I don't think it has much bearing on RR's alignment in the end.
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It does make me think that RR makes a lot of sense as scum, no? And that his wagon was probably quite townie? It seems unlikely that we had this kind of outcome if both are scum, because some scum might easily try to look townie by staying off both popular wagons, if they're in no danger of being lynched.
Well Joseph isn't scum. So I am confused what point you can draw from that. If you mistyped and meant to type "if both are town"?
I do still think that the make up for the RR wagon was townier than the Joseph wagon, just by default. WW, myself and gkrieg were all on the RR wagon, but the Joseph wagon was lacking in high probability town players...
But can you repeat/rephrase what point you are trying to make? I guess I am not completely following...
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Yes, I have not been as active here as I usually am. I apologize for that.
One point that people who don't want roleblocking to happen is that you prevent that with a RR lynch. So that is cool
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My Limetime vote is lazy why ? He fits a certain bill of newbie scum (scared to post, opportunistic voting), but I guess a vote that's not on someone you think is scum is automatically lazy and bad ?
Lazy because you're simply giving up your stronger scumread (even though it's very early in the day) instead of working more on convincing people, and switch to someone who won't give you a lot of resistance as either alignment.
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Well Joseph isn't scum. So I am confused what point you can draw from that. If you mistyped and meant to type "if both are town"?
Ah, yeah. That is what I meant. I think if both major wagons are on town, they would be tempted to stay off both (particularly with daychat) to look good. We know that didn't happen.
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One point that people who don't want roleblocking to happen is that you prevent that with a RR lynch. So that is cool
... are you still drunk?
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My Limetime vote is lazy why ? He fits a certain bill of newbie scum (scared to post, opportunistic voting), but I guess a vote that's not on someone you think is scum is automatically lazy and bad ?
Lazy because you're simply giving up your stronger scumread (even though it's very early in the day) instead of working more on convincing people, and switch to someone who won't give you a lot of resistance as either alignment.
Oh come on. I bet you anything if I had persisted on S_P you would be accusing me of tunneling. And rightly so ! I've been trying to convince people S_P is scum for most of this game, it'll happen when it'll happen, might as well make my vote do something in the meantime.
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My Limetime vote is lazy why ? He fits a certain bill of newbie scum (scared to post, opportunistic voting), but I guess a vote that's not on someone you think is scum is automatically lazy and bad ?
Lazy because you're simply giving up your stronger scumread (even though it's very early in the day) instead of working more on convincing people, and switch to someone who won't give you a lot of resistance as either alignment.
Oh come on. I bet you anything if I had persisted on S_P you would be accusing me of tunneling. And rightly so ! I've been trying to convince people S_P is scum for most of this game, it'll happen when it'll happen, might as well make my vote do something in the meantime.
Can I ask you not to make baseless assumptions about how I would read your hypothetical play? I don't get how you're "doing something" with your vote by switching from one player with zero votes to another. You could support the wagons on e and RR if you wanted something to happen.
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My Limetime vote is lazy why ? He fits a certain bill of newbie scum (scared to post, opportunistic voting), but I guess a vote that's not on someone you think is scum is automatically lazy and bad ?
Lazy because you're simply giving up your stronger scumread (even though it's very early in the day) instead of working more on convincing people, and switch to someone who won't give you a lot of resistance as either alignment.
Oh come on. I bet you anything if I had persisted on S_P you would be accusing me of tunneling. And rightly so ! I've been trying to convince people S_P is scum for most of this game, it'll happen when it'll happen, might as well make my vote do something in the meantime.
Can I ask you not to make baseless assumptions about how I would read your hypothetical play? I don't get how you're "doing something" with your vote by switching from one player with zero votes to another. You could support the wagons on e and RR if you wanted something to happen.
Which is what I mean by any vote not on your scumreads being automatically deeemed lazy just because it doesn't happen to fit your reads.
Also I believe WW is also voting Limetime.
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Vote: Hydrad
He has had a few long posts that have been great, but very generically helpful. He did put Joseph at L-1, and I really haven't seen some of the normal town signs from him
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Vote: Hydrad
Oops
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Better than teproc or RR in my opinion.
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Better than teproc or RR in my opinion.
Why?
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I think it terms of understanding whether or not the Joseph wagon was a deflection of the RR wagon more is required than you was on/off. I remember the Joseph wagon taking off much later after the RR wagon died down... which makes me think it wasn't a deflection... but I could be misremembering.
Vote Count 1.5 #548
Roadrunner7671 (6): gkrieg13, yuma, Hydrad, Limetime, Witherweaver, Joseph2302 (L-1)
Limetime (1): EgorK
scott_pilgrim (1): Teproc
Teproc (2): scott_pilgrim, Roadrunner7671
silverspawn (1): faust
Not Voting (2): 2.71828, silverspawn
Joseph had no votes on him at this point
Vote Count 1.6 #631
Roadrunner7671 (4): yuma, Hydrad, Limetime, Teproc
Teproc (3): scott_pilgrim, Witherweaver, Joseph2302
Joseph2303 (3): faust, EgorK, silverspawn
faust (1): Roadrunner7671
Hydrad (1): 2.71828
Not Voting (1): gkrieg13
Vote Count 1.7 #674
Roadrunner7671 (3): yuma, Limetime, Teproc
Teproc (2): Witherweaver, Joseph2302
Joseph2303 (6): faust, EgorK, silverspawn, 2.71828, scott_piglrim, Hydrad (L-1)
faust (1): Roadrunner7671
Not Voting (1): gkrieg13
People who left the wagon:
gkrieg unvoted to no one
joseph left to teproc
witherweaver left to teproc
hydrad left to joseph
teproc left to joseph
If anything it felt more like Joseph was a distancing wagon from the teproc wagon.
Summary of all votes from vote count 1.5
574 - faust for joseph
592 - RR for faust
597 - 2.7 for hydrad
604 - WW for teproc
610 - egork for joseph
618 - teproc for RR
619 - ss for SP
628 - ss for joseph
629 - joseph for teproc
643 - 2.7 for joseph
662 - SP for joseph
664 - hydrad for joseph
680 - teproc for joseph
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Which is what I mean by any vote not on your scumreads being automatically deeemed lazy just because it doesn't happen to fit your reads.
Also I believe WW is also voting Limetime.
Okay. Then you could explain why you think e and RR are likely town. (or at least not as scummy as Limetime)
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i don't think it is really that much about distancing, much more that scum saw sheeping me as a safe option.
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i don't think it is really that much about distancing, much more that scum saw sheeping me as a safe option.
which means 2.7 is a better option than RR
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Which is what I mean by any vote not on your scumreads being automatically deeemed lazy just because it doesn't happen to fit your reads.
Also I believe WW is also voting Limetime.
Okay. Then you could explain why you think e and RR are likely town. (or at least not as scummy as Limetime)
Dear God. How many posts do I have in this game ? How many times do I need to state those opinions ?
e has been constructive, level-headed, and generally sounds like town!e does. He stands out, has his own views on stuff, and his point of view does not feel manufactured. It feels singular, which is particularly unlikely to come from daychathaving!scum. Because I haven't reread him, my opinion is worthless for yuma, but that's what you get. I don't find his Joseph vote lazy or scummy, because it came at a point where I was wanting to vote for Joseph myself.
RR is someone I can't read. He's been very scummy. He's an ok lynch. Not my preferred one.
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As long as you guys are doing rereads make sure you get hydrad done. He is a super fast read.
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oh dang more stuff.
hmm those wagon analysis's are interesting. I didn't really think it like that very hard.
so if the Joseph wagon is an alternate to Teproc then it would be me/S_P/e from that 1.6 vote count and pushed it along.
hmm I don't see any of these people really scummy though. I guess it could of been one of the first Joseph people before teproc really gained any traction but then thats not as much pushing Joseph because they wanted to save Teproc.
Hmm well I don't see Teproc as scummy from the vote count part of it at least.
As for RR that one makes more sense to me for the vote switch. So RR jumps up to a would lynch target now.
Speaking of which. Theres been so much talking i have no idea where the votes are now.
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Huh...the wagon analysis is interesting. How often does it happen that everyone votes for one of the two major wagons in a day? It can't be very often. I think this is actually a legitimate argument for RR being scum, since Joseph was town and there were generally townier players on RR's wagon than Joseph's. So this makes me happy with an RR lynch despite that I have no idea how to read him. Sort of like how Limetime (or maybe WW? I'm not sure what to think about him now) is a good default lynch, just because the probability there is a little better.
But really, Teproc should be the lynch today. The other good options (RR and Limetime) feel like easy defaults, which is okay because there are some decent reasons to vote for them, but we can do better.
Remind me to read the case on e tomorrow when I'm less tired. I remember like nothing from him this game. Hydrad too. Who else are people voting for? Those are the main options right?
Teproc did you ever respond to my post where I responded to your response to my post about probability? Did you understand what I was saying there? I really got the impression when I read your post that you just wanted me to be saying some particular thing because that thing would be scummy, and you didn't actually make an attempt to read what I actually said.
PPE 1
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My Limetime vote is lazy why ? He fits a certain bill of newbie scum (scared to post, opportunistic voting), but I guess a vote that's not on someone you think is scum is automatically lazy and bad ?
Lazy because you're simply giving up your stronger scumread (even though it's very early in the day) instead of working more on convincing people, and switch to someone who won't give you a lot of resistance as either alignment.
I will say this. This one feels a bit unfair. I feel like hes been pushing S_P for so long and no ones going with it. If I was in his position I would move somewhere else after a while too as his S_P vote isn't doing much at the time.
PPE:1
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What is the vote count? Faust made pretty good case on RR, I'm tempted to join
PPE: about a page
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Unofficial Vote Count:
Limetime (3): Witherweaver, Hydrad, Teproc
Teproc (2): scott_pilgrim, yuma
Hydrad (1): e
Roadrunner7671 (3): silverspawn, faust, Limetime
Not Voting (2): Egork, Roadrunner7671
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Vote Count 2.3
Teproc (2): scott_pilgrim, yuma
Limetime (3): Witherweaver, Hydrad, Teproc
Hydrad (1): 2.71828
Roadrunner7671 (3): silverspawn, faust, Limetime
Not Voting (2): EgorK, Roadrunner7671
With 11 players alive, it takes 6 to lynch. Day Two will end Sunday, March 27th, 7 am. forum time.
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that's what I said!
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Vote: Limetime
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Vote: Limetime
Really?
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Vote: Limetime
Really?
I can't say why, but yes, really.
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Vote: Limetime
FOS everyone on that wagon. If only 2.7 would vote there then all four of my scum reads would be on that wagon
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Vote: Limetime
FOS everyone on that wagon. If only 2.7 would vote there then all four of my scum reads would be on that wagon
FOS?
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Vote: Limetime
FOS everyone on that wagon. If only 2.7 would vote there then all four of my scum reads would be on that wagon
FOS?
(http://cdn.meme.am/instances2/500x/4859712.jpg)
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I'll be a little bit selfish here... A big, big reason why I don't want to lynch Limetime because if we do and if he is town I strongly think I am dead tonight... Unless he is scum then it will probably be WW.
I just don't see how eliminating the one power role that has a decent chance to actually be useful is the way to go unless we have a strong reason to do so.
It is like we are going completely opposite in this game. We spent all of yesterday not claiming until the last minute and lynched the worst possible person (well one of them) and then immediately had claims today that weren't needed and now on our way to lynching that person anyways...
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Vote: RR
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But really, Teproc should be the lynch today. The other good options (RR and Limetime) feel like easy defaults, which is okay because there are some decent reasons to vote for them, but we can do better.
Remind me to read the case on e tomorrow when I'm less tired.
So I guess this is the sort of post that teproc brings up about SP trying to post good stuff for the sake of looking townie... But when it is actually good stuff I don't think it is really possible to distinguish between the two. Like I completely agree with him on RR and limetime.
Also here is your reminder to read 2.7. He or teproc should be the lynch today
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Also here is your reminder to read 2.7. He or teproc should be the lynch today
please no. They're probably both town.
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err you said e or Teproc. Okay, e is good. I thought you said SP or teproc.
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Oh yeah.
So I just reread your (yuma's) case on e. Mostly it's just calling everyone (including himself) IC's, and then this:
Day2:
Pretty much absent throughout. The day has been going for all that long I will admit, but still he has been one that was completely silent about Teproc, except to say that "we shouldn't lynch him yet"... whatever that means. If this isn't the definition of sitting back and observing to see how to make the next move I don't know what else is.
I mean I guess it's something. It doesn't feel huge to me though.
I don't know, I feel like I've hit this point where one player just looks way scummier than the rest and everyone else just feels like a back-up option. There are probably a few players I feel are towny enough I wouldn't want to lynch them, but none of them are being considered anyway. I feel like I should be doing a reread or something but it's so much work...
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Request prod on WW
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I thought we started to run out of time... turns out that we still have almost a week time. These seems like pretty long deadlines. As I see it, there are 4 main lynch candidates right now.
Roadrunner - well I like this one. I think he's likely scum, and I think his lynch will give us a good chunk of information as we will have two dead players that everyone has taken a stance on.
Teproc - he doesn't seem like usual Teproc. His hammer was scummy. He is a decent lynch, with the caveat that I suck at reading Teproc, and he is one of our more active players.
e - really I feel like this case mostly boils down to lurking. Which is fine, I agree with yuma's explanation that lurking can be more scummy here, but if that's all there is to it, then I'd rather lynch my stronger scumreads. Would love some more participation though.
Limetime - and then we have this. Pushed by the other scummy people, this seems like your definition of a deflecting wagon. He doesn't fight back, and there's a reason to assume that people will feel good about his lynch. I reread him and didn't find anything scummy.
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e - really I feel like this case mostly boils down to lurking. Which is fine, I agree with yuma's explanation that lurking can be more scummy here, but if that's all there is to it, then I'd rather lynch my stronger scumreads. Would love some more participation though.
I don't think it boils down to lurking at all. I mean, he is to an extent, but what is tipping me off is what he is saying when he is around (or what he is explicitly avoiding talking about) along with how and when he has voted. If these flags were associated with more posts--and more townie posts in general--then it might be mitigated to an extent. But the case certainly isn't just lurking. I mean... that is what I have against the limetime lynch...
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e - really I feel like this case mostly boils down to lurking. Which is fine, I agree with yuma's explanation that lurking can be more scummy here, but if that's all there is to it, then I'd rather lynch my stronger scumreads. Would love some more participation though.
I don't think it boils down to lurking at all. I mean, he is to an extent, but what is tipping me off is what he is saying when he is around (or what he is explicitly avoiding talking about) along with how and when he has voted. If these flags were associated with more posts--and more townie posts in general--then it might be mitigated to an extent. But the case certainly isn't just lurking. I mean... that is what I have against the limetime lynch...
Alright. I guess I agree that what e posts (or rather what he does not post) is generally more on the anti-town side. I'm just not convinced that this is how scum!e would play, and attribute it more to e-who-isn't-following-the-game-closely.
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Hmm I'm warming up to an rr lynch now.
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Hmm I'm warming up to an rr lynch now.
And I am warming up to a Hydrad lynch now.
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Hmm I'm warming up to an rr lynch now.
And I am warming up to a Hydrad lynch now.
But why!
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Hmm I'm warming up to an rr lynch now.
And I am warming up to a Hydrad lynch now.
But why!
You have been the king of joining the easy lynch this game with zero accountability
- on the RR wagon yesterday
- on the joseph wagon yesterday
- on the limetime wagon today
- thinking about the RR wagon again today
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Request prod on WW
Prod sent.
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Hmm I'm warming up to an rr lynch now.
And I am warming up to a Hydrad lynch now.
But why!
You have been the king of joining the easy lynch this game with zero accountability
- on the RR wagon yesterday
- on the joseph wagon yesterday
- on the limetime wagon today
- thinking about the RR wagon again today
Hmm. I guess that's a fair reason.
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Wait what do you mean 0 accountability? Isn't joining a wagon holding me accountable in some way?
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Yeah, if Hydrad was not accountable, then how are you holding him accountable right now? That argument doesn't work.
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Ok...
"zero" accountability is a poor choice of words. But I think you get what I am getting at. The votes are such that it is harder to hold him accountable afterwards because there isn't a lot of content to judge both hydrad's votes or the people he is voting for.
And it isn't really like people are being all that accountable for having lynched Joseph (even after the voting analysis most people just kinda shrugged and moved on). I feel like I am the only one harping on it (faust is too to an extent), so I am making an effort to hold people accountable, but it isn't like accountability just magically happens...
What I am getting at is hydrad's votes are the type that if the lynch goes through and it turns up a mislynch he can just look back and say... "well they weren't posting all that much and were kinda, mysteriously but not too specifically scummy so I voted for them. Can't blame me for that!"
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Yeah. This game is interesting. So many slips, so many consequences for lynching. Lynching people is what town does, but town gets hurt for lynching people.
Anyway, I am sticking with my reread from earlier and my D1 read, and like the hydrad lynch.
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e... I am still waiting for an answer.
Better than teproc or RR in my opinion.
Why?
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e... I am still waiting for an answer.
Better than teproc or RR in my opinion.
Why?
Ah, yes. Well, I have come around to RR a bit more since then. Particularly if we want to block the blockers. Teproc probably because he has been keeping this game alive and active and I have a soft spot for that. While bit an alignment tell necessarily, I don't find what he has posted to be scummy
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Particularly if we want to block the blockers.
Why do you keep saying this? Is there like any advantage to doing this that isn't ridiculously edge case-y? If Roleblocking is anti-town, then they can just not do it. Blocking the roleblockers is only a good thing if there is a majority scum in that neighborhood, or if you think they are town with particularly bad judgment for some reason.
I think it's like a 10-15% chance that scum is a majority in the RB neighborhood, and even then (assuming it's 2 scum 1 town since 3 scum is extremely unlikely), it will look scummy to the town RB if scum deliberately makes an anti-town move, and the most they can do is block one power anyway, and none of the powers are so great that it will be like game warping if they get it through.
My point is, this is just such a minor thing that it's silly to take it into consideration at all.
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First what was the roleblock neighborhood doing trying to roleblock someone in the first place?
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Not for yuma it isn't silly to take into consideration
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I did kind of grab onto that quote and run with it. You can go back and read my original response to see what I think about it.
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First what was the roleblock neighborhood doing trying to roleblock someone in the first place?
Well this was posted when I had originally thought that the docs still had an action they could use that could have been blocked by the role blockers, either via manipulation from mafia or just purely by accident...
But since my premise was in error it doesn't have as much meaning
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First what was the roleblock neighborhood doing trying to roleblock someone in the first place?
Well this was posted when I had originally thought that the docs still had an action they could use that could have been blocked by the role blockers, either via manipulation from mafia or just purely by accident...
But since my premise was in error it doesn't have as much meaning
But it has meaning for you tonight. I mean, you sound pretty clear that even if the roleblocking could, they should not use their pr except when there are fewer scum (like one) around. So if you think RR is scum, now is the time to lynch him.
I am still not convinced that he is scum
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First what was the roleblock neighborhood doing trying to roleblock someone in the first place?
Well this was posted when I had originally thought that the docs still had an action they could use that could have been blocked by the role blockers, either via manipulation from mafia or just purely by accident...
But since my premise was in error it doesn't have as much meaning
But it has meaning for you tonight. I mean, you sound pretty clear that even if the roleblocking could, they should not use their pr except when there are fewer scum (like one) around. So if you think RR is scum, now is the time to lynch him.
I am still not convinced that he is scum
Well, yeah, I think that. But others are going to disagree.
Here is what I see possibly happening from a roleblocker.
1. block the doctor (possibly prevent doc from saving, but of course that would require the doc to actually be targeting the person being killed... so odds aren't great)
2. block the motion detector (possibly prevent MD from getting investigative result of some sort)
3. target the PGO and die (if PGO is active)
4. block the mafia kill - no one dies - hooray! - this player is more likely to be mafia and is likely to be correctly lynched.
5. block mafia - NK goes through - this player is less likely to be mafia, but that assumption is incorrect
6. block town - NK goes through - this player is less likely to be mafia, and that assumption is correct
7. block town - no NK because Doc successfully protected - this player is thought to be mafia and is mislynched because of it.
Each of these have different probabilities, some higher, some lower of course. i am not going to calculate them out. But what I am getting at is that number 6 and number 4 are the useful instances. Everything else is harmful or useless.
All of this of course is even further complicated by whether or not mafia is in the RB QT and what else the mafia knows about what is going on in other PR QTs...
But morale of the story is I don't think the assumption should just be to have the RB QT use their power. There should be a discussion and the individuals who make that decision will be held accountable for what they decide once we have a full reveal of who is where.
But I don't think that is a worthwhile reason to lynch RR--or any other RB--in isolation, or even whether or not it should be a minor factor...
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Wait, before we make an official decision on the best option we need someone to come in and do the math on all the probabilities on all these options.
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Wait, before we make an official decision on the best option we need someone to come in and do the math on all the probabilities on all these options.
Not it
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if you can make a setup probability appear that says you're town, I'll be happy to disregard my read!
There are 11 people still in this game. Three of them are Mafia. I have a 3/11 chance of being Mafia. Those aren't great odds.
Well if we don't lynch anyone then there will be 3/10
Not sure who I am voting for but anyways vote: rr
request prod on Limetime
Vote: Limetime
FOS everyone on that wagon. If only 2.7 would vote there then all four of my scum reads would be on that wagon
FOS?
request prod on RR
Which is what I mean by any vote not on your scumreads being automatically deeemed lazy just because it doesn't happen to fit your reads.
Also I believe WW is also voting Limetime.
Okay. Then you could explain why you think e and RR are likely town. (or at least not as scummy as Limetime)
Dear God. How many posts do I have in this game ? How many times do I need to state those opinions ?
e has been constructive, level-headed, and generally sounds like town!e does. He stands out, has his own views on stuff, and his point of view does not feel manufactured. It feels singular, which is particularly unlikely to come from daychathaving!scum. Because I haven't reread him, my opinion is worthless for yuma, but that's what you get. I don't find his Joseph vote lazy or scummy, because it came at a point where I was wanting to vote for Joseph myself.
RR is someone I can't read. He's been very scummy. He's an ok lynch. Not my preferred one.
request prod on Teproc
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Valid points. I hope the RB people take that into account tonight (*cough*RR*cough*)
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How have I not posted here long enough to get a orod?
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So I think Teproc is the best wagon and Limetime is the second best, so I do plan to move my vote to Teproc. He seems to be passively buddying me and trying to point out why my posts are bad or futile, which doesn't seem towny from Teproc. So for now Unvote but I would be pleased with a Teproc lynch.
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How have I not posted here long enough to get a orod?
too busy partying in the day chat?
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So I think Teproc is the best wagon and Limetime is the second best, so I do plan to move my vote to Teproc. He seems to be passively buddying me and trying to point out why my posts are bad or futile, which doesn't seem towny from Teproc. So for now Unvote but I would be pleased with a Teproc lynch.
Switch to Hydrad. We need some good wagons
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How have I not posted here long enough to get a orod?
too busy partying in the day chat?
Oh yeah, day chat.
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How have I not posted here long enough to get a orod?
too busy partying in the day chat?
Oh yeah, day chat.
Was that supposed to be a "oh, I forgot about daychat" post? Because it has the opposite affect on me
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How have I not posted here long enough to get a orod?
too busy partying in the day chat?
Oh yeah, day chat.
Was that supposed to be a "oh, I forgot about daychat" post? Because it has the opposite affect on me
No, it was clearly an 'oops, better go talk to my scum buddies in the daychat' post.
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RR, are you trying to get lynched or what? I do not think there is jester in this setup
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Wait, before we make an official decision on the best option we need someone to come in and do the math on all the probabilities on all these options.
If that's what you want. I'll only do the calculations for the case that there is no mafia in the RB QT, since in all other instances it is obviously bad to use the blocking as mafia is guaranteed to invade it.
The chance that there is no mafia in the RB QT, assuming you are a townie in the RB QT, is at the end of this day
- if we lynch non-RB town: 41.7%
- if we lynch non-RB scum: 58.3%
No odds for the specific instances, all assuming no RB is lynched today:
1. block the doctor (possibly prevent doc from saving, but of course that would require the doc to actually be targeting the person being killed... so odds aren't great) - 14.3% (if we don't lynch a Doc) or 0% (if we do)
2. block the motion detector (possibly prevent MD from getting investigative result of some sort) - 14.3% (if we don't lynch a Motion Detector) or 0% (if we do)
3. target the PGO and die (if PGO is active) - 14.3% (if we don't lynch a PGO) or 0% (if we do)
4. block the mafia kill - no one dies - hooray! - this player is more likely to be mafia and is likely to be correctly lynched. - 14.3%
5. block mafia - NK goes through - this player is less likely to be mafia, but that assumption is incorrect - 14.3% (if mafia is lynched today) or 28.6% (if not)
6. block town - NK goes through - this player is less likely to be mafia, and that assumption is correct - 71.4% (if mafia is lynched today) or 57.1% (if not)
7. block town - no NK because Doc successfully protected - this player is thought to be mafia and is mislynched because of it. - the odds are (odds that no scum is in Doc neighborhood)*(odds that the Docs choose the right target)*(odds that RB blocks town that isn't the Doc performing the night action)*(odds that mafia does not NK a Doc). Leaving the last one out because it's impossible to calculate, we get 3.4% (if we lynch non-Doc scum today) or 1.5% (if we lynch non-Doc town) or 0% (if we lynch a Doc)
All things combined, the really useful instance (4) has a 6.0% chance of occuring if we lynch non-RB town, and a 8.3% chance if we lynch non-RB scum.
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*invade=evade
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(I forgot to post that I was joking about the math thing.)
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But thanks
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Vote: Limetime
FOS everyone on that wagon. If only 2.7 would vote there then all four of my scum reads would be on that wagon
What is wrong with this wagon?
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Vote: Limetime
FOS everyone on that wagon. If only 2.7 would vote there then all four of my scum reads would be on that wagon
What is wrong with this wagon?
I think it is an incredibly weak wagon for where we are in the game. And as stated pretty much all my scum reads are on it. You are the lone exception.
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I claim doctor. Joseph was a doctor. The other doctor can confirm.
No one noticed I claimed this at the beginning of the day?
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Has Limetime done anything indicative of town?
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Has Limetime done anything indicative of town?
I am not at the point of wanting to lynch for lack of indicativeness of being town. I am looking for indicatives of being scum, of which I think other players have much more and of which I haven't seen any from Limetime. Frankly we haven't seen anything from Limetime. I would like to see more from him. 14 posts certainly isn't a lot.
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I claim doctor. Joseph was a doctor. The other doctor can confirm.
No one noticed I claimed this at the beginning of the day?
Multiple people noticed.
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It was a softclaim, wasn't it ? Softclaims are the worst.
Anyhow, I haven't been giving this game the attention it deserves for some strange reason... I really should reread e, he has been scummy lately.
LImetime has done plenty of stuff indicative of being stuff, this isn't a default lynch, at least not for me. His posting/voting patterns conform exactly to what I'd expect from newbie scum with daychat.
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of being scum*
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It was a softclaim, wasn't it ? Softclaims are the worst.
Anyhow, I haven't been giving this game the attention it deserves for some strange reason... I really should reread e, he has been scummy lately.
LImetime has done plenty of stuff indicative of being stuff, this isn't a default lynch, at least not for me. His posting/voting patterns conform exactly to what I'd expect from newbie scum with daychat.
Mine wasn't a softclaim.
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Joseph was Doctor, hence me not wanting to lynch him yesterday. I actually thought he was scum, but I thought it best to not pursue him until later, obviously.
To be clear you didn't actually claim for yourself. You stated that Joseph was Doctor and then by deduction (which sometimes people miss) we could tell that you were claiming Doctor.
But why exactly is this an issue?
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Joseph was Doctor, hence me not wanting to lynch him yesterday. I actually thought he was scum, but I thought it best to not pursue him until later, obviously.
To be clear you didn't actually claim for yourself. You stated that Joseph was Doctor and then by deduction (which sometimes people miss) we could tell that you were claiming Doctor.
But why exactly is this an issue?
Yay! For once I didn't miss something!
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Well it's not; I had just found it odd that there weren't initial reactions. I didn't intend for it to be a subtle claim.
I'm not certain about lynching Limetime, but based on how the case on me went yesterday, I suspected there was scum in my neighborhood. Gkrieg dying added to that.
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but based on how the case on me went yesterday, I suspected there was scum in my neighborhood. Gkrieg dying added to that.
What's the logic there ?
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I'm not certain about lynching Limetime, but based on how the case on me went yesterday, I suspected there was scum in my neighborhood. Gkrieg dying added to that.
What do you mean?
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Did Limetime perform the action or something?
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Did Limetime perform the action or something?
Doctors didn't have any action last night due to Joseph dying. (took me a while too...)
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Did Limetime perform the action or something?
Doctors didn't have any action last night due to Joseph dying. (took me a while too...)
Tricky tricky tricky. Also bad.
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Anyhow, I haven't been giving this game the attention it deserves for some strange reason...
Is the strange reason that you don't like being scum?
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It was what made me say this:
Actually I'm not sure about Silver.
Going to throw out some predictions:
*One of my neighbors is scum
*Someone on my wagon is scum
Those may or may not be different someones.
Those were indeed different someones, but I didn't want to give anything away. My thought was something felt pretty scummy about my wagon; I could see town deciding to jump on and see what happened, but things felt forced and not genuine. So I began to think that scum knew I was doctor, and they saw an opportunity to get a lynch. Most likely explanation is that a neighbor is scum, though scum having a member in each other QT is an explanation as well.
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Anyhow, I haven't been giving this game the attention it deserves for some strange reason...
Is the strange reason that you don't like being scum?
zing
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Anyhow, I haven't been giving this game the attention it deserves for some strange reason...
Is the strange reason that you don't like being scum?
It's that I don't like being lynched.
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I don't particularly like Teproc going after Limetime here, because it doesn't seem bussy and Teproc seemed the scummiest other person.
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I mean, I don't like it in the sense that it's inconsistent with what I had imagined before.
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Reads contigent on other reads are bad.
PPE : Well then, the correct play would be to reconsider what yuo had imagined before.
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It was what made me say this:
Actually I'm not sure about Silver.
Going to throw out some predictions:
*One of my neighbors is scum
*Someone on my wagon is scum
Those may or may not be different someones.
Those were indeed different someones, but I didn't want to give anything away. My thought was something felt pretty scummy about my wagon; I could see town deciding to jump on and see what happened, but things felt forced and not genuine. So I began to think that scum knew I was doctor, and they saw an opportunity to get a lynch. Most likely explanation is that a neighbor is scum, though scum having a member in each other QT is an explanation as well.
Man... I kinda forgot about the wagon on you... But this to me just seems too self aware to be credible. And by that I mean, that I don't doubt that you actually think that and I am not calling you scummy, I just don't buy your reasoning. Because from a non-you point of view I don't remember thinking your wagon was forced at all... And in rereading it just now, I still dont' think that. It felt as if people were legitimately finding posts that you made to be scummyish slips. Just because "you know" you are town doesn't mean that other townies couldn't find you scummy.
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It was what made me say this:
Actually I'm not sure about Silver.
Going to throw out some predictions:
*One of my neighbors is scum
*Someone on my wagon is scum
Those may or may not be different someones.
Those were indeed different someones, but I didn't want to give anything away. My thought was something felt pretty scummy about my wagon; I could see town deciding to jump on and see what happened, but things felt forced and not genuine. So I began to think that scum knew I was doctor, and they saw an opportunity to get a lynch. Most likely explanation is that a neighbor is scum, though scum having a member in each other QT is an explanation as well.
Even if they didn't know that you were a Doctor the odds should have been pretty good. I don't think too many conclusions should be drawn from that line of thinking.
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It was what made me say this:
Actually I'm not sure about Silver.
Going to throw out some predictions:
*One of my neighbors is scum
*Someone on my wagon is scum
Those may or may not be different someones.
Those were indeed different someones, but I didn't want to give anything away. My thought was something felt pretty scummy about my wagon; I could see town deciding to jump on and see what happened, but things felt forced and not genuine. So I began to think that scum knew I was doctor, and they saw an opportunity to get a lynch. Most likely explanation is that a neighbor is scum, though scum having a member in each other QT is an explanation as well.
Man... I kinda forgot about the wagon on you... But this to me just seems too self aware to be credible. And by that I mean, that I don't doubt that you actually think that and I am not calling you scummy, I just don't buy your reasoning. Because from a non-you point of view I don't remember thinking your wagon was forced at all... And in rereading it just now, I still dont' think that. It felt as if people were legitimately finding posts that you made to be scummyish slips. Just because "you know" you are town doesn't mean that other townies couldn't find you scummy.
It was also five minutes into day 1, so WW's slip, while not a huge deal, was comparatively huge because, you know, there's nothing else to talk about at that point.
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It was what made me say this:
Actually I'm not sure about Silver.
Going to throw out some predictions:
*One of my neighbors is scum
*Someone on my wagon is scum
Those may or may not be different someones.
Those were indeed different someones, but I didn't want to give anything away. My thought was something felt pretty scummy about my wagon; I could see town deciding to jump on and see what happened, but things felt forced and not genuine. So I began to think that scum knew I was doctor, and they saw an opportunity to get a lynch. Most likely explanation is that a neighbor is scum, though scum having a member in each other QT is an explanation as well.
Even if they didn't know that you were a Doctor the odds should have been pretty good. I don't think too many conclusions should be drawn from that line of thinking.
Ah, well that's a point I hadn't considered.
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It is notable that two out of three Doctors had major wagons on D1, and the third one did not.
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It is notable that two out of three Doctors had major wagons on D1, and the third one did not.
And that one barely commented.
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It is notable that two out of three Doctors had major wagons on D1, and the third one did not.
But does now.
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Limetime actually received a fair bit of suspicion on day 1 too, pretty sure the only reason there was never a wagon was because this is is first game here (or second ?).
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Limetime actually received a fair bit of suspicion on day 1 too, pretty sure the only reason there was never a wagon was because this is is first game here (or second ?).
Guess this town just hates doctors.
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It is notable that two out of three Doctors had major wagons on D1, and the third one did not.
But does now.
Hm. I don't think getting Doctors lynched is high on scum's agenda now.
I think there is a reason for many people to think that Limetime is scum, but these people should consider that scum has daychat in this game.
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It is notable that two out of three Doctors had major wagons on D1, and the third one did not.
But does now.
Hm. I don't think getting Doctors lynched is high on scum's agenda now.
I think there is a reason for many people to think that Limetime is scum, but these people should consider that scum has daychat in this game.
I know you're automatically disocunting anything I say this game, but daychat is actually a big reason why Limetime is scummy to me, so I'm not sure what you're getting at and I don't see the point in being coy.
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It is notable that two out of three Doctors had major wagons on D1, and the third one did not.
But does now.
Hm. I don't think getting Doctors lynched is high on scum's agenda now.
But isn't that the entire premise of WW's case against Limetime... that he informed his partners that WW/Joseph was scum so they wanted to push to get a Doctor lynched?
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It is notable that two out of three Doctors had major wagons on D1, and the third one did not.
But does now.
Hm. I don't think getting Doctors lynched is high on scum's agenda now.
But isn't that the entire premise of WW's case against Limetime... that he informed his partners that WW/Joseph was scum so they wanted to push to get a Doctor lynched?
They already did that
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I know you're automatically disocunting anything I say this game, but daychat is actually a big reason why Limetime is scummy to me, so I'm not sure what you're getting at and I don't see the point in being coy.
Well uh I'm afraid you just have to think about it some more. I can't go into any more detail.
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It is notable that two out of three Doctors had major wagons on D1, and the third one did not.
But does now.
Hm. I don't think getting Doctors lynched is high on scum's agenda now.
But isn't that the entire premise of WW's case against Limetime... that he informed his partners that WW/Joseph was scum so they wanted to push to get a Doctor lynched?
They already did that
This.
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That you guys think scum went about day 1 of this game with a "Must. Lynch. Doctors" state of mind is already insnae, but it's even moreso when you're applying to me. Have you met scum!Teproc ?
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It is notable that two out of three Doctors had major wagons on D1, and the third one did not.
But does now.
Hm. I don't think getting Doctors lynched is high on scum's agenda now.
But isn't that the entire premise of WW's case against Limetime... that he informed his partners that WW/Joseph was scum so they wanted to push to get a Doctor lynched?
They already did that
But why would they not want to do it again? If it was good yesterday, it would be good today.
But really the argument that we are having is dumb. We are both saying that scum wouldn't be targeting Limetime today for a mislynch because he is a doctor. And I am taking that further to say that I think it unlikely the WW's theory that scum was purposefully trying to get a doctor mislynch yesterday is unlikely
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That you guys think scum went about day 1 of this game with a "Must. Lynch. Doctors" state of mind is already insnae, but it's even moreso when you're applying to me. Have you met scum!Teproc ?
Nobody is applying it to you.
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That you guys think scum went about day 1 of this game with a "Must. Lynch. Doctors" state of mind is already insnae, but it's even moreso when you're applying to me. Have you met scum!Teproc ?
Nobody is applying it to you.
This. Especially since I don't have that state of mind. You are scummy of your own accord.
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I thought the whole reason my hammer was supposedly scummy was because lynching a Doctor was something only scum would want ?
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It is notable that two out of three Doctors had major wagons on D1, and the third one did not.
But does now.
Hm. I don't think getting Doctors lynched is high on scum's agenda now.
But isn't that the entire premise of WW's case against Limetime... that he informed his partners that WW/Joseph was scum so they wanted to push to get a Doctor lynched?
They already did that
But why would they not want to do it again? If it was good yesterday, it would be good today.
But really the argument that we are having is dumb. We are both saying that scum wouldn't be targeting Limetime today for a mislynch because he is a doctor. And I am taking that further to say that I think it unlikely the WW's theory that scum was purposefully trying to get a doctor mislynch yesterday is unlikely
Yesterday we had an IC.
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It is notable that two out of three Doctors had major wagons on D1, and the third one did not.
But does now.
Hm. I don't think getting Doctors lynched is high on scum's agenda now.
But isn't that the entire premise of WW's case against Limetime... that he informed his partners that WW/Joseph was scum so they wanted to push to get a Doctor lynched?
They already did that
But why would they not want to do it again? If it was good yesterday, it would be good today.
But really the argument that we are having is dumb. We are both saying that scum wouldn't be targeting Limetime today for a mislynch because he is a doctor. And I am taking that further to say that I think it unlikely the WW's theory that scum was purposefully trying to get a doctor mislynch yesterday is unlikely
The main upside was getting the IC killed without having to shoot a Doc. Now the IC is dead. The only way they want another Doctor dead is if they have noone in that neighborhood, because then there's a danger of accidentally killing the player they protect. But the same is true of any neighborhood: They're more dangerous to scum if scum isn't in them.
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I thought the whole reason my hammer was supposedly scummy was because lynching a Doctor was something only scum would want ?
There is a difference between "Must. Lynch. Doctors." and conveniently hammering a Doctor when the opportunity arises, you know.
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Vote: Teproc and we're back at it.
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That you guys think scum went about day 1 of this game with a "Must. Lynch. Doctors" state of mind is already insnae, but it's even moreso when you're applying to me. Have you met scum!Teproc ?
Yes, when you state it that way it is insane, but when you construct any strawman to satisfy preset conditions, those preset conditions are satisfied.
I don't think it's such an unlikely scenario that scum knows who the doctor neighborhood is and things it's a good idea to lynch from there. It doesn't have to be an uncompromisable game plan.
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I thought the whole reason my hammer was supposedly scummy was because lynching a Doctor was something only scum would want ?
There is a difference between "Must. Lynch. Doctors." and conveniently hammering a Doctor when the opportunity arises, you know.
My point is that you guys are thinking about the setup in ways that make no sense to me. Scum doesn't need to do anything for the PRs to be awful, pretty sure the only thing they're concerned with is watching town self-destruct and not be lynched, since the only way our PRs are any good is if we lynch scum first.
Why are we not lynching Limetime again ?
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Why are we not lynching Limetime again ?
Because we're lynching you.
Also, why would we?
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I thought the whole reason my hammer was supposedly scummy was because lynching a Doctor was something only scum would want ?
There is a difference between "Must. Lynch. Doctors." and conveniently hammering a Doctor when the opportunity arises, you know.
My point is that you guys are thinking about the setup in ways that make no sense to me. Scum doesn't need to do anything for the PRs to be awful, pretty sure the only thing they're concerned with is watching town self-destruct and not be lynched, since the only way our PRs are any good is if we lynch scum first.
Why are we not lynching Limetime again ?
I don't buy "the only way our PRs are any good is if we lynch scum first." A PR of IC is intrinsically good.
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That you guys think scum went about day 1 of this game with a "Must. Lynch. Doctors" state of mind is already insnae, but it's even moreso when you're applying to me. Have you met scum!Teproc ?
Yes, when you state it that way it is insane, but when you construct any strawman to satisfy preset conditions, those preset conditions are satisfied.
I don't think it's such an unlikely scenario that scum knows who the doctor neighborhood is and things it's a good idea to lynch from there. It doesn't have to be an uncompromisable game plan.
It's not a strawman, dude. 80% of faust's posts in this game are about the setup (completely made-up staistic, its probably less but still). This is not a complex setup : town basically can't do anything with any degree of certainty before scum loses one of their members.
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Why are we not lynching Limetime again ?
Because we're lynching you.
Also, why would we?
Because scum is wathcing us self-destruct, was my point.
IC is not that good a PR, but I was talking about the neighborhood PRs there anyway.
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That you guys think scum went about day 1 of this game with a "Must. Lynch. Doctors" state of mind is already insnae, but it's even moreso when you're applying to me. Have you met scum!Teproc ?
Yes, when you state it that way it is insane, but when you construct any strawman to satisfy preset conditions, those preset conditions are satisfied.
I don't think it's such an unlikely scenario that scum knows who the doctor neighborhood is and things it's a good idea to lynch from there. It doesn't have to be an uncompromisable game plan.
It's not a strawman, dude. 80% of faust's posts in this game are about the setup (completely made-up staistic, its probably less but still). This is not a complex setup : town basically can't do anything with any degree of certainty before scum loses one of their members.
It's a strawman because you're misrepresenting (by gross exaggeration) the position.
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I am not. A lot of the "scumhunting" in this game has been based on assumptions about how scum approaches the setup. I think that's irremediably dumb.
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That you guys think scum went about day 1 of this game with a "Must. Lynch. Doctors" state of mind is already insnae, but it's even moreso when you're applying to me. Have you met scum!Teproc ?
Yes, when you state it that way it is insane, but when you construct any strawman to satisfy preset conditions, those preset conditions are satisfied.
I don't think it's such an unlikely scenario that scum knows who the doctor neighborhood is and things it's a good idea to lynch from there. It doesn't have to be an uncompromisable game plan.
It's not a strawman, dude. 80% of faust's posts in this game are about the setup (completely made-up staistic, its probably less but still). This is not a complex setup : town basically can't do anything with any degree of certainty before scum loses one of their members.
I posit that you have a higher percentage of setup posts than me by now.
"Town can't do anything" is bullshit. There are 4 QTs and 3 scum, so town is at the very least able to perform one night action without scum knowing.
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Why are we not lynching Limetime again ?
Because we're lynching you.
Also, why would we?
Because scum is wathcing us self-destruct, was my point.
IC is not that good a PR, but I was talking about the neighborhood PRs there anyway.
IC is a good PR. If IC was alive today we'd have a key piece of information to use for PoE (the alignment of the person that died in his stead). And the doctor neighborhood in particular allows the IC to stay alive.
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I am not. A lot of the "scumhunting" in this game has been based on assumptions about how scum approaches the setup. I think that's irremediably dumb.
Well, how about you tell me which way we are supposed to be looking for scum if not by looking for posts that seem like something scum would post?
Ah I forgot. We just lynch someone who doesn't post at all. Because that never backfires.
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I thought the whole reason my hammer was supposedly scummy was because lynching a Doctor was something only scum would want ?
I mean what WW was getting at that from the beginning of the game scum tried to move a mislynch toward a Doctor. That I don't see,. But an opportunity to hammer a softclaimed Doctor with the explanation of "he softclaimed! That is scummy!" might have been too hard to pass up.
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"he softclaimed! That is scummy!"
That reasoning by the way. And Teproc is accusing us of bad scumhunting.
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It would be kinda funny if scum!Teproc didn't think about the Doctors at all with the hammer and is now annoyed because he's "lynched for the wrong reasons".
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What am I not understanding about the setup? Is it not the case that the first thing for scum to do is get rid of IC, which necessarily involves getting rid of doctor?
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What am I not understanding about the setup? Is it not the case that the first thing for scum to do is get rid of IC, which necessarily involves getting rid of doctor?
I think if it is convenient for them they do so. But I don't see scum going in with a game plan. Directing mislynches as scum is hard, hard work... and often doesn't even work out. As scum you have to take the mislynches you can get and if it is on a Doctor then great. If not... you night kill a doctor and take out the IC Night2.
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What am I not understanding about the setup? Is it not the case that the first thing for scum to do is get rid of IC, which necessarily involves getting rid of doctor?
I don't think you're the one who doesn't understand stuff about the setup.
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Maybe I hav emore setup posts than you faust, but I doubt it. I've been forced to talk about it because that's the only argument I've been hearing to say I'm obvscum, and since it's all the most prominent players in the game saying it I do have to respond to it.
I am accusingyou of bad scumhunting yes. It is leading you to spend all day 2 pushing for town, I'd say taht's evdence of pretty bad freaking scumhunting, wouldn't you ?
Softclaiming is scummy, yes... because it's plainly anti-town in every way imaginable and has only one purpose which is survival ? Town wants to survive too, obviously, but scum wants it more and is more ready to go against consensus to do it.
I just don't think scumcares baout an IC being alive at all, and thus don't care all that much about doctors (assuming they didn't get a 2-1-0-0 distribution, but Joseph's softclaiming and subsequent lynch threw that scenario out of the window, mostly.
PPE : Well, since I'm scum I must know better than you what scum did or did not do right ?
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I don't think anyone is saying that Joseph softclaiming there was a good idea. What I am saying is that the natural reaction to that should not have been to hammer. It should have been to take a step back and ask... "Do we want to hammer?"
You have stated that you feared he would claim more... But I don't think that is a valid fear or reason to hammer someone.
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I remember why I was avoiding this game now. Be back later, but it'd be easier if three of the four active players didn't infuriate me at every point (by which I mean the non-crazy people should post more).
PPE : I did ask myself that. i decided I wanted to. I said that but I never said it was my primary reason to want to hammer him. I thought he was scum an dI didn't see any poit in waiting because, and this is the point you seem not to be understanding : I didn't think there was any reason to wait since the fact that he was a doctor was completely irrelevant to me, as I think this setup is about scumhunting and basically nothing else for the first two days. Clearly you guys disagree, but that's what I thoguht (and think).
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Softclaiming is scummy, yes... because it's plainly anti-town in every way imaginable and has only one purpose which is survival ? Town wants to survive too, obviously, but scum wants it more and is more ready to go against consensus to do it.
Point me to a game where scum softclaimed.
(assuming they didn't get a 2-1-0-0 distribution, but Joseph's softclaiming and subsequent lynch threw that scenario out of the window, mostly.
I genuinely don't understand what you're trying to say here.
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Not completely irrelvant in the sense that it informs a lot of what was going on... but irrelevant in the sense that I never thought not lynching doctors just because they're doctors was a good idea. And I said it multiple times in day 1. So maybe I'm the dumbest person ever for thinking that, but I said it and basically no one seemed so shocked by it.
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Softclaiming is scummy, yes... because it's plainly anti-town in every way imaginable and has only one purpose which is survival ? Town wants to survive too, obviously, but scum wants it more and is more ready to go against consensus to do it.
Point me to a game where scum softclaimed.
(assuming they didn't get a 2-1-0-0 distribution, but Joseph's softclaiming and subsequent lynch threw that scenario out of the window, mostly.
I genuinely don't understand what you're trying to say here.
Point me to a game where scum said "you're lynching me for the wrong reasons". That's an awful argument ad you know it. Also I'm sure there are plenty.
The second thing is quite clear... THe only way our PRs do something is if scum got two peoplein one neighborhood (or three I guess). That was the whole point of not claiming day 1, remember ?
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Point me to a game where scum said "you're lynching me for the wrong reasons". That's an awful argument ad you know it. Also I'm sure there are plenty.
sudgy in this game. (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9409.0) But I wasn't even making an argument, just stating a random thought. Even though I am able to provide a precedent of that happening and you are not.
The second thing is quite clear... THe only way our PRs do something is if scum got two peoplein one neighborhood (or three I guess). That was the whole point of not claiming day 1, remember ?
Why would our PRs do nothing if it was 1-1-1? The argument D1 was that hiding our neighborhoods does nothing in that case.
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Very little makes me want to rethink my positions more than being called crazy by someone who by the same metrics could have the same label applied to them. I mean... name calling is a really good way to communicate. (So is being passive aggressive... this one is directed at me...)
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Very little makes me want to rethink my positions more than being called crazy by someone who by the same metrics could have the same label applied to them. I mean... name calling is a really good way to communicate. (So is being passive aggressive... this one is directed at me...)
Being passive aggressive at yourself should be called possessive aggressive.
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sudgy in this game. (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9409.0)
That was the exact game I was thinking of. I also know I have done that. I think my game was the Wibbly Wobbely Mafia game... Although I think in both of those cases the player in question was a SK, so the gripe was somewhat legitimate...
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Look, I even have the post right there:
I am the SK. You guys caught me for the entirely wrong reasons.
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You don't believe scum never softclaimed ever ? Beside I wasn't arguing that it's scummy is in a vacuum, because you know, nothing is.
Our PRs do nothing in a 1-1-1 setup because scum knows who they are targeting... except one, so it's 3goons against one Roleblocker/Doctor/PGO/Motion Detector... and even then it can't be that hard to guess who gets the role because it's based on a vote. So yeah, good luck getting a PR to do anything in those conditions.
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Very little makes me want to rethink my positions more than being called crazy by someone who by the same metrics could have the same label applied to them. I mean... name calling is a really good way to communicate. (So is being passive aggressive... this one is directed at me...)
Crazy is an insult now ? Is "wrong" an insult, or am I not allowed to say you're wrong either ?
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Very little makes me want to rethink my positions more than being called crazy by someone who by the same metrics could have the same label applied to them. I mean... name calling is a really good way to communicate. (So is being passive aggressive... this one is directed at me...)
Crazy is an insult now ? Is "wrong" an insult, or am I not allowed to say you're wrong either ?
I never said it was an insult, nor that I was insulted. Just that your techniques to convince me that I am wrong aren't working.
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Very little makes me want to rethink my positions more than being called crazy by someone who by the same metrics could have the same label applied to them. I mean... name calling is a really good way to communicate. (So is being passive aggressive... this one is directed at me...)
Crazy is an insult now ? Is "wrong" an insult, or am I not allowed to say you're wrong either ?
I never said it was an insult, nor that I was insulted. Just that your techniques to convince me that I am wrong aren't working.
Yeah, well, I gave up on that a while ago. I did try, numerous times, but yes I am fed up with hitting a brick wall over and over again.
I thought "name-calling" meant insulting ?
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You don't believe scum never softclaimed ever ?
I don't remember any scum softclaim, and I remember town softclaims, and that makes me think that softclaims are townie. If you think softclaims are scummy, then you seem to have different memories, and then you would be able to provide a link to such a game from that memory.
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You don't believe scum never softclaimed ever ?
I don't remember any scum softclaim, and I remember town softclaims, and that makes me think that softclaims are townie. If you think softclaims are scummy, then you seem to have different memories, and then you would be able to provide a link to such a game from that memory.
Well that's... crazy. Of course scum has softclaimed, softclaims happen in every game, just by sheer numbers it must have happened.
And again I wasn't arguing it was scumy in a vacuum (nothing is), I was saying softclaiming in this game is very scummy, but since I've explained that about 5 times this day alone I'm guessing you're not interested in taht argument.
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I thought "name-calling" meant insulting ?
Hmmm... I think in general it is used as that. But I think it can be more broadly applied. I tend to think of "name-calling" as play ground stuff that is eye-roll worthy but not actually an insult.
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You don't believe scum never softclaimed ever ?
I don't remember any scum softclaim, and I remember town softclaims, and that makes me think that softclaims are townie. If you think softclaims are scummy, then you seem to have different memories, and then you would be able to provide a link to such a game from that memory.
Well that's... crazy. Of course scum has softclaimed, softclaims happen in every game, just by sheer numbers it must have happened.
That has nothing to do with what I said.
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well i am going to take a break and let the non-crazy people catch up...
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And again I wasn't arguing it was scumy in a vacuum (nothing is)
My next game will be space themed, and noone will be able to catch scum ever.
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You don't believe scum never softclaimed ever ?
I don't remember any scum softclaim, and I remember town softclaims, and that makes me think that softclaims are townie. If you think softclaims are scummy, then you seem to have different memories, and then you would be able to provide a link to such a game from that memory.
Well that's... crazy. Of course scum has softclaimed, softclaims happen in every game, just by sheer numbers it must have happened.
That has nothing to do with what I said.
...
Great. I guess this is another one of these things I'm suposed to figure out by myself because the great and powerful faust won't deign to come down and explain it to mere mortals ?
PPE : You should do a dust-based game instead.
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Right, well I don't know why I stayed arguing when it was clearly not being productive (to be clear I do realize this is largely my fault as well). Sorry about that.
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So, faust and teproc have been arguing. I honestly did not read it all too carefully at this point. I will, though.
Why is everyone giving hydrad a pass here? I mean, not a real pass, but a "I am just going to ignore him" pass. All these great discussions, at least reread hydrad enough to attempt to discredit me
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The main thing that I take away from this 1 on 1 is that I really don't want to lynch Teproc now. Gut feeling, but a really strong one, I think Teproc is town.
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So, faust and teproc have been arguing. I honestly did not read it all too carefully at this point. I will, though.
Why is everyone giving hydrad a pass here? I mean, not a real pass, but a "I am just going to ignore him" pass. All these great discussions, at least reread hydrad enough to attempt to discredit me
I have reread him, and did call him out a bit previously. But honestly... at this point I kinda lump him in with the RR and Limetime lynch.
Look, maybe I am just totally off base here, but this is generally how I approach a game.
1. at the start of the game (well more like mid-day) I look at the pool of players and try and see if there is anyone that is blatantly scummy. There rarely is. Sometimes, but rarely.
2. in the case that there is not I then attempt to do PoE and part of that PoE is sifting out who I will have a better chance of reading throughout the game than those that I don't think I will be able to read at all.
3a. The ones that I don't read very well I generally put up for a lynch (taking into consideration their play, etc, etc, etc. This isn't a hard science).
3b. My thinking is that players that I have a better time reading are those that I want to keep around for another day to get more data to assess them with.
4. So I put forward the players who are harder to read. In this case players like hyrad and RR and push for their lynch.
5. After Day1 my perspective switches. Because with some flips and some night actions and some interaction I feel more confident in being able to read those who I thought I would be able to better read with time and I assess who is scummy and who isn't and push for their lynch.
6. Those that I still can't read are just that. Players that I can't read. And my best hope for being able to read them is through solid interactions with confirmed scummy players.
Which all goes to say that early on (Day1) I am fine lynching players that I have a hard time reading (Hyrdad/RR), midgame I prefer to lynch players that I feel confident reading and late game I prefer lynching based off how anyone interacted with the players that have confirmed flipped scum. This is why I have such a hard time in games where no one has flipped scum and we are at mylo. So right now I would prefer to lynch someone that I feel confident (or at least more confident in reading) than a pure question mark in hydrad/RR/limetime. If those guys are scum I think they will be found out later and probably the only way to credibly read them, unfortunately.
Like I said, maybe I am off base, but that I how I am approaching the game.
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Giving too much weight to interactions seems problematic to me personally-- I think scum has gotten fairly skilled in not letting their interactions give them away.
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This game, RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR-- he's not even there, fighting. I think town!RR is more passionate about not being mislynched.
But okay, I keep talking about RR. How about faust? Anyone else feel like faust is... off here? Like not really genuine?
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I don't have time to read everything now but I just have a few comments.
I am not. A lot of the "scumhunting" in this game has been based on assumptions about how scum approaches the setup. I think that's irremediably dumb.
I really strongly disagree with this. This is a tough set-up to play with lots to think about for both alignments. Catching scum based on solid evidence from set-up related decisions is a lot easier than catching them from reads, in my opinion. But I know this is something people disagree with me on in general.
Maybe I hav emore setup posts than you faust, but I doubt it. I've been forced to talk about it because that's the only argument I've been hearing to say I'm obvscum, and since it's all the most prominent players in the game saying it I do have to respond to it.
I am accusingyou of bad scumhunting yes. It is leading you to spend all day 2 pushing for town, I'd say taht's evdence of pretty bad freaking scumhunting, wouldn't you ?
Softclaiming is scummy, yes... because it's plainly anti-town in every way imaginable and has only one purpose which is survival ? Town wants to survive too, obviously, but scum wants it more and is more ready to go against consensus to do it.
I just don't think scumcares baout an IC being alive at all, and thus don't care all that much about doctors (assuming they didn't get a 2-1-0-0 distribution, but Joseph's softclaiming and subsequent lynch threw that scenario out of the window, mostly.
PPE : Well, since I'm scum I must know better than you what scum did or did not do right ?
I don't think the soft claim is necessarily scummy, and certainly not a good reason to hammer someone. It is probably true that the soft claim isn't good for town if it's done by town, but it's also not good for scum if it's done by scum, so it's null. However, if you realized that Joseph was a doc based on his soft claim, that should have given you reason to be more careful with the lynch, rather than just hammering.
BTW I agree with yuma and Teproc (I think?) that scum doesn't come into the game saying "let's mislynch a doctor today". But if the opportunity arises, they certainly want to get on board with it, and that's what I think Teproc did here. He saw an easy opportunity to mislynch a doc and jumped on it.
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This game, RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR-- he's not even there, fighting. I think town!RR is more passionate about not being mislynched.
But okay, I keep talking about RR. How about faust? Anyone else feel like faust is... off here? Like not really genuine?
I'm
Not
In
Mislynch
Danger
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Vote Count 2.4
Teproc (3): scott_pilgrim, yuma, faust
Limetime (4): Witherweaver, Hydrad, Teproc, Roadrunner7671
Hydrad (1): 2.71828
Roadrunner7671 (3): silverspawn, Limetime, EgorK
With 11 players alive, it takes 6 to lynch. Day Two will end Sunday, March 27th, 7 am. forum time.
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I still think this is town!teproc.
But okay, I keep talking about RR. How about faust? Anyone else feel like faust is... off here? Like not really genuine?
interesting. I was kinda thinking that as well.
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How am I "off" or not genuine?
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This game, RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR-- he's not even there, fighting. I think town!RR is more passionate about not being mislynched.
But okay, I keep talking about RR. How about faust? Anyone else feel like faust is... off here? Like not really genuine?
I'm
Not
In
Mislynch
Danger
Pretty sure you meant to say this:
I'm
Not
Interested
In
Finding
Scum
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How am I "off" or not genuine?
I don't know how to really explain it. Usually I just get like town vibes coming from you and i'm like dang i'll just blindly trust faust kinda town vibes. But this game and I'm just not getting those vibes for some reason. And I've had this feeling before and I backed down on it since no one else thought you were scum but you turned out scum that game!
but ya as for specific reasons. I actually have no idea. SS might be able to explain it though.
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How am I "off" or not genuine?
I don't know how to really explain it. Usually I just get like town vibes coming from you and i'm like dang i'll just blindly trust faust kinda town vibes. But this game and I'm just not getting those vibes for some reason. And I've had this feeling before and I backed down on it since no one else thought you were scum but you turned out scum that game!
but ya as for specific reasons. I actually have no idea. SS might be able to explain it though.
I think I heard that in every single game for like 5 or 6 games as any alignment, so please cut the crap.
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How am I "off" or not genuine?
I don't know how to really explain it. Usually I just get like town vibes coming from you and i'm like dang i'll just blindly trust faust kinda town vibes. But this game and I'm just not getting those vibes for some reason. And I've had this feeling before and I backed down on it since no one else thought you were scum but you turned out scum that game!
but ya as for specific reasons. I actually have no idea. SS might be able to explain it though.
I think I heard that in every single game for like 5 or 6 games as any alignment, so please cut the crap.
Vote: faust
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How am I "off" or not genuine?
I don't know how to really explain it. Usually I just get like town vibes coming from you and i'm like dang i'll just blindly trust faust kinda town vibes. But this game and I'm just not getting those vibes for some reason. And I've had this feeling before and I backed down on it since no one else thought you were scum but you turned out scum that game!
but ya as for specific reasons. I actually have no idea. SS might be able to explain it though.
I think I heard that in every single game for like 5 or 6 games as any alignment, so please cut the crap.
Vote: faust
What was that for?
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How am I "off" or not genuine?
I don't know how to really explain it. Usually I just get like town vibes coming from you and i'm like dang i'll just blindly trust faust kinda town vibes. But this game and I'm just not getting those vibes for some reason. And I've had this feeling before and I backed down on it since no one else thought you were scum but you turned out scum that game!
but ya as for specific reasons. I actually have no idea. SS might be able to explain it though.
I think I heard that in every single game for like 5 or 6 games as any alignment, so please cut the crap.
sorry its really the only thing I can judge you on as I can't really read you in normal was as you play both really well.
Its also why I didn't bring it up until ss did because I know its not the most accurate thing in the world and knew if I tried to say your scummy because of that it wouldn't make anyone push to lynch you. I guess I'm more saying that i'm in agreement with ss then trying to make a case individually.
I'll also say that the one point that could be giving me this feeling is that I see teproc as town but you seem to see the opposite of that. Which feels more like scum pushing a lynch kinda thing.
-
How am I "off" or not genuine?
I don't know how to really explain it. Usually I just get like town vibes coming from you and i'm like dang i'll just blindly trust faust kinda town vibes. But this game and I'm just not getting those vibes for some reason. And I've had this feeling before and I backed down on it since no one else thought you were scum but you turned out scum that game!
but ya as for specific reasons. I actually have no idea. SS might be able to explain it though.
I think I heard that in every single game for like 5 or 6 games as any alignment, so please cut the crap.
I don't like this much. In games where we didn't suspect scum!you, you tell us that we should have later on, and that we're buying too much into the faust as leader thing. Now that we are suspecting you, you immediately discourage us in what is harsh language for your standards. So tell me, what are the scum!faust traits in your opinion, if not disingeniounsincencyness?
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How am I "off" or not genuine?
I don't know how to really explain it. Usually I just get like town vibes coming from you and i'm like dang i'll just blindly trust faust kinda town vibes. But this game and I'm just not getting those vibes for some reason. And I've had this feeling before and I backed down on it since no one else thought you were scum but you turned out scum that game!
but ya as for specific reasons. I actually have no idea. SS might be able to explain it though.
I think I heard that in every single game for like 5 or 6 games as any alignment, so please cut the crap.
I don't like this much. In games where we didn't suspect scum!you, you tell us that we should have later on, and that we're buying too much into the faust as leader thing. Now that we are suspecting you, you immediately discourage us in what is harsh language for your standards. So tell me, what are the scum!faust traits in your opinion, if not disingeniounsincencyness?
I don't have anything against being suspected, but then I want more than the same line I've been hearing over and over again that means nothing. I want to see some work done. As to what scum!faust traits are... man, that's hard. I guess I stick closer to the book, if that makes sense. I will hesitate to go for the random lurker lynch because that looks bad. I will act confident and forceful. I will make long cases and rereads. I might be less likely to change my mind about someone. But really, I don't know. You will have to figure that out.
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How am I "off" or not genuine?
I don't know how to really explain it. Usually I just get like town vibes coming from you and i'm like dang i'll just blindly trust faust kinda town vibes. But this game and I'm just not getting those vibes for some reason. And I've had this feeling before and I backed down on it since no one else thought you were scum but you turned out scum that game!
but ya as for specific reasons. I actually have no idea. SS might be able to explain it though.
I think I heard that in every single game for like 5 or 6 games as any alignment, so please cut the crap.
Vote: faust
What was that for?
I can guarantee that you have said something similar about other players, basing a read around gut reads and vibes. if you can apply it to other people, other people can certainly apply it to you.
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I don't have anything against being suspected, but then I want more than the same line I've been hearing over and over again that means nothing. I want to see some work done. As to what scum!faust traits are... man, that's hard. I guess I stick closer to the book, if that makes sense check. I will hesitate to go for the random lurker lynch because that looks bad. check I will act confident and forceful. check I will make long cases and rereads. kinda check I might be less likely to change my mind about someone. double check But really, I don't know. You will have to figure that out.
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oops... that was supposed to be more clear that I had edited the quote above. Obviously red additions are my own...
-
I can guarantee that you have said something similar about other players, basing a read around gut reads and vibes. if you can apply it to other people, other people can certainly apply it to you.
I guess I just grew tired of hearing it for the umpteenth time. I don't give out super townie vibes usually I think. Sometimes I get scum lynched D1, well then it's hard not to have a town read on me.
-
I don't know if that makes sense from your perspective, but do you think the Joseph wagon would have taken off the way it did if I was scum? Because to me it seems relatively clear that scum jumped a convenient wagon there.
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I don't know if that makes sense from your perspective, but do you think the Joseph wagon would have taken off the way it did if I was scum? Because to me it seems relatively clear that scum jumped a convenient wagon there.
I agree the wagon was convenient for scum to jump on. But I don't think that you leading it makes it any less so. I mean, I guess if you were leading it there is one less scum player to "conveniently" jump on. But there are still two other players who could....
But to that end, I still want to go back to vote: 2.7
-
This game, RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR-- he's not even there, fighting. I think town!RR is more passionate about not being mislynched.
But okay, I keep talking about RR. How about faust? Anyone else feel like faust is... off here? Like not really genuine?
I'm
Not
In
Mislynch
Danger
But, but, you are at like L-4 or something. This is a new RR we are seeing here guys. I like it
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This game, RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR-- he's not even there, fighting. I think town!RR is more passionate about not being mislynched.
But okay, I keep talking about RR. How about faust? Anyone else feel like faust is... off here? Like not really genuine?
I'm
Not
In
Mislynch
Danger
But, but, you are at like L-4 or something. This is a new RR we are seeing here guys. I like it
L-4?
Aaaaahhhhhhhhhh11!!!1!2?&4;&
-
Hellooo?
Well I'm off to reread Hydrad because e asked nicely.
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This game, RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR-- he's not even there, fighting. I think town!RR is more passionate about not being mislynched.
But okay, I keep talking about RR. How about faust? Anyone else feel like faust is... off here? Like not really genuine?
I'm
Not
In
Mislynch
Danger
But, but, you are at like L-4 or something. This is a new RR we are seeing here guys. I like it
What do you like about it?
-
I reread Hydrad's D1 and then the browser ate my post and I got discouraged. Anyway Hydrad post not a single scum read D1, and hops onto two wagons. The only thing from there that was townie was his reaction to everything that happened with WW.
-
I reread Hydrad's D1 and then the browser ate my post and I got discouraged. Anyway Hydrad post not a single scum read D1, and hops onto two wagons. The only thing from there that was townie was his reaction to everything that happened with WW.
ah perfect. that sounds like faust has a super strong town read on me. That means I'm an IC.
-
anyways I'm still fine with LT or RR. don't want teproc. thats basically it for now. I'm guessing something will happen to break the ice soon though as 4 days till Lynch? who knows.
-
if you can make a setup probability appear that says you're town, I'll be happy to disregard my read!
There are 11 people still in this game. Three of them are Mafia. I have a 3/11 chance of being Mafia. Those aren't great odds.
Well if we don't lynch anyone then there will be 3/10
Not sure who I am voting for but anyways vote: rr
request prod on Limetime
rerequest prod on Limetime
He has not posted since Saturday.
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I feel like I have not posted here in a while either. Sorry. Faust, thanks for the reread. Now I am sure I can convince you to vote hydrad.
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rerequest prod on Limetime
He has not posted since Saturday.
He hasn't even been logged into the forums since Sunday. That is problematic.
-
rerequest prod on Limetime
He has not posted since Saturday.
He hasn't even been logged into the forums since Sunday. That is problematic.
He's new to Mafia, so it's possible that he's unaware of the vacation/limited access thread.
-
if you can make a setup probability appear that says you're town, I'll be happy to disregard my read!
There are 11 people still in this game. Three of them are Mafia. I have a 3/11 chance of being Mafia. Those aren't great odds.
Well if we don't lynch anyone then there will be 3/10
Not sure who I am voting for but anyways vote: rr
request prod on Limetime
rerequest prod on Limetime
He has not posted since Saturday.
Prod sent, and my apologies for missing the first request.
-
Well the question now becomes... Do we wait and see if he is replaced or do we pre-empitvely use a lynch rather than wait for a modkill, if it gets to that point. I basically see it as a random lynch, so the equivalent of a modkill so would rather lynch someone else and let the modkill happen if it must, but having both a modkill and a lynch could put us in a non ideal situation player number wise toward the end of the game...
-
Or he could just come back, but I am becoming doubtful of that...
-
Well the question now becomes... Do we wait and see if he is replaced or do we pre-empitvely use a lynch rather than wait for a modkill, if it gets to that point. I basically see it as a random lynch, so the equivalent of a modkill so would rather lynch someone else and let the modkill happen if it must, but having both a modkill and a lynch could put us in a non ideal situation player number wise toward the end of the game...
Well, it's still Day 2, so I think we can hope for a replacement. I agree that he is unlikely to return however.
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Vote Count 2.5
Teproc (2): scott_pilgrim, faust
Limetime (4): Witherweaver, Hydrad, Teproc, Roadrunner7671
Hydrad (1): 2.71828
2.71828 (1): yuma
Roadrunner7671 (3): silverspawn, Limetime, EgorK
With 11 players alive, it takes 6 to lynch. Day Two will end Sunday, March 27th, 7 am. forum time.
Regarding Limetime: there is a replacement available, so if Limetime does not respond by tomorrow morning he will be replaced.
-
I think we should lynch Limetime. My vote expresses that, but him being inactive is the cherry on the sundae.
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I think we should lynch Limetime. My vote expresses that, but him being inactive is the cherry on the sundae.
Well his inactivity should be null, since he hasn't even been on the forums...Do you have other reasons?
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Actually, vote: Roadrunner
-
Well the question now becomes... Do we wait and see if he is replaced or do we pre-empitvely use a lynch rather than wait for a modkill, if it gets to that point. I basically see it as a random lynch, so the equivalent of a modkill so would rather lynch someone else and let the modkill happen if it must, but having both a modkill and a lynch could put us in a non ideal situation player number wise toward the end of the game...
Lynching Limetime now is equialent to no lynch later on (in case he would be modkilled). And we can always do that (no lynch). So lynching himm to keep parity seems not advisable
-
vote: teproc
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Very little makes me want to rethink my positions more than being called crazy by someone who by the same metrics could have the same label applied to them. I mean... name calling is a really good way to communicate. (So is being passive aggressive... this one is directed at me...)
Being passive aggressive at yourself should be called possessive aggressive.
Request prod on WW
Right, well I don't know why I stayed arguing when it was clearly not being productive (to be clear I do realize this is largely my fault as well). Sorry about that.
Request prod on Teproc
How am I "off" or not genuine?
I don't know how to really explain it. Usually I just get like town vibes coming from you and i'm like dang i'll just blindly trust faust kinda town vibes. But this game and I'm just not getting those vibes for some reason. And I've had this feeling before and I backed down on it since no one else thought you were scum but you turned out scum that game!
but ya as for specific reasons. I actually have no idea. SS might be able to explain it though.
I think I heard that in every single game for like 5 or 6 games as any alignment, so please cut the crap.
I don't like this much. In games where we didn't suspect scum!you, you tell us that we should have later on, and that we're buying too much into the faust as leader thing. Now that we are suspecting you, you immediately discourage us in what is harsh language for your standards. So tell me, what are the scum!faust traits in your opinion, if not disingeniounsincencyness?
request prod on silverspawn
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I don't think I have ever been in a game as lurky as this.
-
I feel like i've said anything I want to say. lynch RR. If we can't lynch RR, lynch e.
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I think we should lynch Limetime. My vote expresses that, but him being inactive is the cherry on the sundae.
He's going to be replaced. Does that make you want to switch your vote?
-
I find it really hard to decide who of Teproc/RR is scummier.
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I think we should lynch Limetime. My vote expresses that, but him being inactive is the cherry on the sundae.
He's going to be replaced. Does that make you want to switch your vote?
Sort-of-not-really.
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doing a targeted reread of Teproc. People seem convinced he is scum, but I don't see it. Confession: I do all my rereads looking for evidence of scum. People have to convince me that they are town (usually). We will see how this goes.
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I think a lot of the votes on Teproc are the fact that he can be argumentative and come across as somewhat abrasive occasionally. I mean, take his first post where he says "yuma is wrong and therefore town. (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=14877.msg575281#msg575281)" I mean, he amended it to say the same thing in more political terms "yuma disagrees with me and is therefore town. (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=14877.msg575303#msg575303)"
But lets look at a post like that. Who is going to make it? Town....or scum?
Then we have his spar with S_P that starts here (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=14877.msg576039#msg576039). Let me summarize: Teproc votes for S_P because Scott "won't commit" by voting for someone. Earlier he had a long post (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=14877.msg575508#msg575508) "after which I [Teproc] have very little idea where he stands on anything. (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=14877.msg575574#msg575574)" This whole spat back and forth turns into some theory discussion about voting and mafia theory in general. Who is having this discussion? Distracting scum!Teproc, or trying to get his point across town!Teproc. I am reading the town!Teproc. I mean, other people weigh in, and feathers are ruffled some more, but in the end, I am not reading scum!Teproc in this. I have been Teproc's scum partner. We absolutely killed it. I mean, we didn't quite have a flawless victory (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13209.0;all), but it was pretty dang close. I just don't see Teproc as scum so far here.
Then we have his hammer (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=14877.msg578197#msg578197).
And then the rest of the day he is basically defending himself. From mostly everyone. Call me crazy, but this is town!Teproc.
Sorry everyone can't be like you and post one in three days. That sure makes for some fun games of mafia.
Never mind me, I'm just cranky because IRL stuff + this wagon here. But I'd rather people not complain about games being active. There is such a thing as too much activity, but it's much, much preferable to the reverse.
This is frustrated town. This is not frustrated scum trying to get a case off their back. I don't see myself voting for teproc this game unless something crazy happens.
-
I mean, please, present a case on Teproc. I targeted Teproc with that post and maybe I missed something that you guys are picking up on. But I don't think so.
-
I think a lot of the votes on Teproc are the fact that he can be argumentative and come across as somewhat abrasive occasionally. I mean, take his first post where he says "yuma is wrong and therefore town. (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=14877.msg575281#msg575281)" I mean, he amended it to say the same thing in more political terms "yuma disagrees with me and is therefore town. (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=14877.msg575303#msg575303)"
But lets look at a post like that. Who is going to make it? Town....or scum?
Then we have his spar with S_P that starts here (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=14877.msg576039#msg576039). Let me summarize: Teproc votes for S_P because Scott "won't commit" by voting for someone. Earlier he had a long post (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=14877.msg575508#msg575508) "after which I [Teproc] have very little idea where he stands on anything. (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=14877.msg575574#msg575574)" This whole spat back and forth turns into some theory discussion about voting and mafia theory in general. Who is having this discussion? Distracting scum!Teproc, or trying to get his point across town!Teproc. I am reading the town!Teproc. I mean, other people weigh in, and feathers are ruffled some more, but in the end, I am not reading scum!Teproc in this. I have been Teproc's scum partner. We absolutely killed it. I mean, we didn't quite have a flawless victory (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13209.0;all), but it was pretty dang close. I just don't see Teproc as scum so far here.
Then we have his hammer (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=14877.msg578197#msg578197).
And then the rest of the day he is basically defending himself. From mostly everyone. Call me crazy, but this is town!Teproc.
Sorry everyone can't be like you and post one in three days. That sure makes for some fun games of mafia.
Never mind me, I'm just cranky because IRL stuff + this wagon here. But I'd rather people not complain about games being active. There is such a thing as too much activity, but it's much, much preferable to the reverse.
This is frustrated town. This is not frustrated scum trying to get a case off their back. I don't see myself voting for teproc this game unless something crazy happens.
This is just a long text of things Teproc did with an occasional "I think Teproc is town" thronw in. There is nothing in here that shows that Teproc is town. I mean, you don't even make like a single comment on the hammer, the by far most scummiest thing that happened in this game.
-
I thought it's only a spat if it's between two lovers
-
I really don't know what I should make of this non-defense of Teproc... it kinda makes me want to vote for e? It just seems very out of character for him.
-
I don't think the defense is as bad as you're making it sound. It's listing the things Teproc has done, and then stating for each one that he doesn't think it's a scum tell. I pretty much agree.
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I don't think the defense is as bad as you're making it sound. It's listing the things Teproc has done, and then stating for each one that he doesn't think it's a scum tell. I pretty much agree.
Well, I partially agree (though I do think that his aggressiveness is a scum tell), but these are just not the points why people think that Teproc is scum, and you can't make a post like that and ignore the biggest thing that everyone has been talking about for days.
-
I just reread faust, and there was a lot less concerning Teproc than I was expecting.
The casual feel that I have gotten at times is that there has been this big faust v Teproc thing going on. But I mean, not so much from faust's side. Yes, he has voted for Teproc. Yes he has disagreed with Teproc. But I get the feeling that he has been trying to scumhunt all game and get a pretty townie vibe from it.
Maybe I just want everyone to be friends. But I am getting town!faust here as well.
-
And yes, I didn't go in depth into the hammer. Why? I don't think hammers are scummy. Someone has to do it. I mean, the hammer didn't fit into your [faust's] perfect box about what was supposed to happen this game, but that is all right. I think you [faust] getting frustrated by it and your whole reaction to it is townie though. I think you would have reacted differently as scum.
-
And yes, I didn't go in depth into the hammer. Why? I don't think hammers are scummy. Someone has to do it. I mean, the hammer didn't fit into your [faust's] perfect box about what was supposed to happen this game, but that is all right. I think you [faust] getting frustrated by it and your whole reaction to it is townie though. I think you would have reacted differently as scum.
"I don't think hammers are scummy" is like saying "I don't think posts are scummy".
-
Vote: e
-
And yes, I didn't go in depth into the hammer. Why? I don't think hammers are scummy. Someone has to do it. I mean, the hammer didn't fit into your [faust's] perfect box about what was supposed to happen this game, but that is all right. I think you [faust] getting frustrated by it and your whole reaction to it is townie though. I think you would have reacted differently as scum.
"I don't think hammers are scummy" is like saying "I don't think posts are scummy".
Which....I don't. I think a collection of posts can be scummy. An individual post itself might be portrayed as scummy, but it needs a body of work to back it up.
Granted, exceptions exist (with both hammers and posts), but by and large, the whole body of work is more important. For example, I think S_P's place on that Joseph wagon is much more scummy than Teproc's. Time for me to go back and read him.
-
And yes, I didn't go in depth into the hammer. Why? I don't think hammers are scummy. Someone has to do it. I mean, the hammer didn't fit into your [faust's] perfect box about what was supposed to happen this game, but that is all right. I think you [faust] getting frustrated by it and your whole reaction to it is townie though. I think you would have reacted differently as scum.
"I don't think hammers are scummy" is like saying "I don't think posts are scummy".
Which....I don't. I think a collection of posts can be scummy. An individual post itself might be portrayed as scummy, but it needs a body of work to back it up.
Granted, exceptions exist (with both hammers and posts), but by and large, the whole body of work is more important. For example, I think S_P's place on that Joseph wagon is much more scummy than Teproc's. Time for me to go back and read him.
I fundamentally disagree I guess? Most posts are just static that doesn't tell you anything about the player's alignment. Then there are things that stand out, one way or the other, and these things are what you've got to find if you want to figure out someone's alignment.
Also, not looking at posts individually, but as a "body of work" mostly means you will fall for your confirmation bias every time.
I think I can go back to vote: Teproc though.
-
vote: RR
-
Townish
WW
yuma
silverspawn
more guys who are townish
faust
S_P
Teproc
That leaves me with
EgorK
RR
Limetime
Hydrad
I am content to wait for a replacement for Limetime, so not lynching today. EgorK pointed out WW's townslip first, so I think more townie than the others. Hydrad is somewhere. I could lynch him. RR has abruptly changed his style recently. I would love to see more of the old RR back. He has good contributions to make (even if he may feel discouraged recently by his play (I mean, I can only come up with wild theories about changes in playstyle I don't actually know the facts))
I think I will pursue a vote: hydrad at this point
-
Vote: e
Yay!
Vote: 2.7
-
And yes, I didn't go in depth into the hammer. Why? I don't think hammers are scummy. Someone has to do it. I mean, the hammer didn't fit into your [faust's] perfect box about what was supposed to happen this game, but that is all right. I think you [faust] getting frustrated by it and your whole reaction to it is townie though. I think you would have reacted differently as scum.
"I don't think hammers are scummy" is like saying "I don't think posts are scummy".
Which....I don't. I think a collection of posts can be scummy. An individual post itself might be portrayed as scummy, but it needs a body of work to back it up.
Granted, exceptions exist (with both hammers and posts), but by and large, the whole body of work is more important. For example, I think S_P's place on that Joseph wagon is much more scummy than Teproc's. Time for me to go back and read him.
I fundamentally disagree I guess? Most posts are just static that doesn't tell you anything about the player's alignment. Then there are things that stand out, one way or the other, and these things are what you've got to find if you want to figure out someone's alignment.
Also, not looking at posts individually, but as a "body of work" mostly means you will fall for your confirmation bias every time.
I think I can go back to vote: Teproc though.
Sad face
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Vote Count 2.6
gkrieg13 has replaced Limetime.
Teproc (2): yuma, faust
Roadrunner7671 (3): silverspawn, EgorK, scott_pilgrim
Hydrad (1): 2.71828
Not Voting (5): gkrieg13, Witherweaver, Hydrad, Teproc, Roadrunner7671
With 11 players alive, it takes 6 to lynch. Day Two will end Sunday, March 27th, 7 am. forum time.
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Gkrieg, make this easy for us: what was Limetime's alignment?
-
why are so many people not voting?
-
why are so many people not voting?
Limetime's wagon was mod destroyed.
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Gkrieg, make this easy for us: what was Limetime's alignment?
Town.
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I will reread later tonight
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I forgot to update the other votes, will correct that presently.
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I think I'm going to start with RR, Teproc, and Hydrad considering we are close to deadline.
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I think I'm going to start with RR, Teproc, and Hydrad considering we are close to deadline.
If you want to make yuma happy, also do e.
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hi gkreig!
Vote: gkrieg
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I think I'm going to start with RR, Teproc, and Hydrad considering we are close to deadline.
If you want to make yuma happy, also do e.
yes.
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2.7 seems different than that one game that just ended. Was it Cupcake Mafia? I think so. The LyLo with Hydrad, Witherweaver and Amaphoros? It was Cupcake Mafia.
If there are no better options, I can do 2.7.
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So D1 RR:
Has some sheeping votes.
Asks what the case on him is.
talks once again about not wanting to vote for people.
He barely talks about reads, has lots of one liners, and is generally conversational
The wagon on me is shockingly large, but no one seems to want to talk about it.
That is completely untrue.
Want to talk about it?
I have said so many things about you. Go do a Control F of my posts if you forgot. Your response is the one that has been lacking. Don't try and spin this as a"woe is me, everyone is voting for but I don't know why" thing.
Control F is hard from an iPod.
I think my best defense is that I would be defending myself more as scum, andI would've been posting more content as well as higher quality content than I have been.
This post stands out to me. I don't think people should talk about what they do as scum, because it almost always is scummy.
claims RB against gkrieg13's wishes. Little did he know gkrieg14 would come back for vengence!
When he gets to L-1, he doesn't try to defend why he was put there.
He is buddying e a TON
he finally gives some reads (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=14877.msg577740#msg577740)
follows what e wants to do (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=14877.msg578014#msg578014)
D2:
Is sure there is scum in the doctor QT
OMGUSes Teproc (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=14877.msg579465#msg579465)
Then says Teproc isn't scum.
Oh so I claimed I was a doctor... That is rather unfortunate.
His vote on limetime and his reaction to his wagon are very scummy.
Overall, I think I'll vote: RR for right now. I'll do a few more rereads tomorrow morning. It is a pretty long thread.
Other reactions I have from rereading RR.
Teproc's hammer D1 before we could get a claim was really scummy. I might switch my vote to him after I reread tomorrow.
I also need to look more at people's reactions to me being the NK. I think that will give hints to who is scum.
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Oh man I forgit gkreig was the IC. Now he's back for revenge!
But I have too many votes for me to be comfortable. Yes, I've been chatty and I've been buddying. This isn't scummy fro me! I buddy as town! I like having buddies!
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RR has abruptly changed his style recently. I would love to see more of the old RR back.
Really? How? No one informed me until now, I had no idea (not sarcasm).
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RR has abruptly changed his style recently. I would love to see more of the old RR back.
Really? How? No one informed me until now, I had no idea (not sarcasm).
It is a lot harder to read you and it seems like you aren't trying to find scum at all. I agree it looks like your style has changed.
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RR has abruptly changed his style recently. I would love to see more of the old RR back.
Really? How? No one informed me until now, I had no idea (not sarcasm).
It is a lot harder to read you and it seems like you aren't trying to find scum at all. I agree it looks like your style has changed.
I was content with lynching from the Doctor neighborhood until you came back.
I've recently looked at my statistics for finding scum, and I'm bad at it! Learning from experience doesn't seem to be the best aporoach, because then people die and I get lynched over it.
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Oh man I forgit gkreig was the IC. Now he's back for revenge!
But I have too many votes for me to be comfortable. Yes, I've been chatty and I've been buddying. This isn't scummy fro me! I buddy as town! I like having buddies!
So he has cause to get revenge on you? Slipping? ;)
PPE: half a page
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I didn't even know Egork was in this game!
Anyway, I'm gonna do those other three rereads shortly
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Teproc D1:
Votes for the IC :'(
Is in favor of not claiming anything. I think doctors definitely should have claimed at L-1
Talks a lot about WW's slip thing. I didn't really even know this was going on when reading RR.
Votes for s_p
keeps pushing his case for s_p
This post is golden (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=14877.msg576321#msg576321)
Says he could go for an RR lynch
while leaving his vote on s_p, he says that e is town, faust is scummy, RR is scummier.
gives more reads here (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=14877.msg577721#msg577721)
votes for RR
desires to lynch Joseph
Then he hammers Joseph (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=14877.msg578197#msg578197)
D2:
His reaction to his hammer and everyone else's reaction. I'll comment on this down below
This post seems strange to me. Why would Joseph claim his partners in his QT? Wouldn't his scum partners already know who else was in the QT? (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=14877.msg579325#msg579325)
His D2 he gets super defensive (I mean he is the leading lynch for a few IRL days.
This post just seems weird too. I guess he is implying that he knows who scum is because of his wagon? (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=14877.msg579468#msg579468)
His L-1 post is pretty null to me.
Starts gunning for s_p again.
He has a sudden change of heart in claiming.
Gives more reads. This reads list looks townie to me.
votes limetime
He talks again about his vote. I think it was an awful vote, but he keeps ensuring that it wasn't a bad vote. (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=14877.msg580347#msg580347)
Ok so after rereading, I think this is a good wagon. Interestingly, he keeps defending his hammer on Joseph. I think that is by far the scummiest thing he has going for him. He is giving good reads and helping the game move along. I think I want to wait until a later day to lynch him, because he is being helpful right now.
I would lynch here today if we can't decide on an RR lynch.
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Hydrad D1:
His theory post is pretty good. Seems insightful.
votes RR
says s_p is town
votes Joseph and puts him at L-1
D2:
This post is pretty townie. He gives reads and stuff (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=14877.msg579589#msg579589)
votes limetime. Thinks we should kill from the doctors. I don't think we should at all!
Another good post (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=14877.msg580390#msg580390)
He defends (kind of) himself with his growing wagon.
I get a townie vibe from Hydrad. I feel like he is contributing to the game more than I have seen Hydrad do in the past.
I don't think I would vote for him today.
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I'll reread e to make yuma happy
D1:
votes for limetime for not reading the setup
says RR is town early on.
says ss, ww, e, yuma are IC
unvotes limetime saying he probably isn't being coached by daychat
explains town slips to people.
Says he isn't impressed with the IC. Man that guy was the worst! I'm glad he's dead
says RR's claim was townie
votes Hydrad and says he will reread
votes joseph
Gives a reads list (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=14877.msg578010#msg578010). Only wants to lynch Hydrad and Joseph.
D2:
doesn't want to lynch Teproc yet.
Keeps insisting on the IC status of several people and votes Hydrad again.
says we should lynch RR if we don't want RB tonight.
keeps going for a Hydrad lynch
Doesn't want to vote Teproc this game
town read on faust
votes for RR
Says s_p is scummy in the post two before this and then says he is town again (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=14877.msg582383#msg582383) This reads list is interesting to me. Why is he tunneling Hydrad so bad?
I would lynch him, but not my top priority. I think there are better lynches.
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This is embarrassing, I completely forgot that gkrieg was the IC originally. He can't replace in. I'm going to lock the thread until I can fix this, there will be a me deadline once I sort it all out.
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gkrieg stays as the replacement. Deadline will be pushed back 24 hope to account for the delay. Thread unlocked.
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cool.
vote: teproc
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Day Two will end Sunday, March 27th, 7 am. forum time.
Deadline pushed back 24 hours means the new deadline is Monday, 7 am. That's in less than 18 hours. We probably need to get something done. I see lots of people not voting... that has got to change immediately if we want a lynch (and we do).
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ADK, could you issue a prod to all players that this game is back on?
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We should totally lynch. I think I like 2.7 the most, like I said, he's been acting very different than Cupcake Mafia.
Vote: e
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I really think it needs to be one of Teproc/RR. Their continued refusal to vote for one another is very unusual, and I don't think it would happen if both of them were town.
One thing to be cautious about: There's daychat, and we don't know if the scum QT was locked as well... so potentially scum had a whole day to prepare their end-of-day play. Look for signs.
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I can be there for the deadline, but I don't imagine many of you Americans can... so probably this needs to wrapped up tonight. I will only be around so long before going to sleep, but will hammer if needed when I wake up.
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vote: Teproc
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I'll be around for the deadline.
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I can OMGUS with the best of them
vote: RR
Better lynch than Teproc, lynches within the Roleblockers (so it won't affect the PGO or whatever Teproc's neighborhood is), and he is voting for me.
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I can OMGUS with the best of them
vote: RR
Better lynch than Teproc, lynches within the Roleblockers (so it won't affect the PGO or whatever Teproc's neighborhood is), and he is voting for me.
This guy shouldbe the lynch. I really can't fathom why it wasn't gotten more traction...
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because I am not scum
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yes, my D2 has been absolutely pathetic. I will give you that. But look back over the body of what I have done. Look back at my D1. I am not scum.
I have not seen a good reason to lynch me come from anyone. Yuma wants to lynch me, sure. But why? Because I have acted differently than I have in the past? Well, this is true. I have been less active recently, it has been harder to get into this game than games in the past for some reason. Does that make me scum?
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I have not seen a good reason to lynch me come from anyone. Yuma wants to lynch me, sure. But why? Because I have acted differently than I have in the past?
I don't think I ever said I wanted to lynch you because you were being from past games.
I want to lynch you because of scummy behavior, trying to categorize that as a "meta" case is either ignorant or disingenuous.
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Ok, yeah. But what scummy behavior? That is my question. you say scummy behavior and I say point to it.
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because I am not scum
That isn't a valid reason for why your wagon hasn't grown larger than 2 votes. Plenty of people that are town get wagons on them... Some even get lynched. I feel like there is a subset of people (as well as just townies who aren't going for it for some reason) who are scum who are blatantly refusing to consider you as a candidate. Otherwise I feel like you would be a mislynch opportunity for people who aren't your partners.
Just talked myself into vote: 2.7 again
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I am not going to go back and quote my own posts... You want to find it (because the posts are there), you do the work...
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and again this is either ignorance from not reading (or paying attention) or being disingenuous
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I might be around for deadline. But I'll try to make a post tonight anyways. Probably in like 6 hours
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Eh, I'm not really opposed to an e lynch... those last couple of posts seemed to be on the townier side though... But I think we're lucky if we get any lynch through given the current activity levels, let alone a completely new wagon. Not that I like that, but it's the way it is.
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I might be around for deadline. But I'll try to make a post tonight anyways. Probably in like 6 hours
I'd prefer earlier so that I can still read it. If you can make it.
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Unofficial Vote Count:
Teproc (2): faust, scott_pilgrim
Roadrunner7671 (3): silverspawn, EgorK, gkrieg13
Hydrad (1): 2.71828
gkrieg13 (1): Hydrad
2.71828... (2): Roadrunner7671, yuma
Not Voting (2): Witherweaver, Teproc
6 to lynch. Nowhere close that.
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WW, Teproc... are you there?
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Also Hydrad, your vote is super unhelpful. Same goes for e.
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I would go for RR. I would also vote for Teproc, but I'm not feeling the e lynch
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I'm not scum, guys.
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I'm not scum, guys.
Then go vote for Teproc.
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I'm not scum, guys.
Then go vote for Teproc.
I don't think he's scum either, but I don't really think I can read him.
But self preservation is not my interest, Teproc gives more than I do, so I'd say I'm a better lynch than him.
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Eh, I'm not really opposed to an e lynch... those last couple of posts seemed to be on the townier side though... But I think we're lucky if we get any lynch through given the current activity levels, let alone a completely new wagon. Not that I like that, but it's the way it is.
This is exactly what I am talking about
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But self preservation is not my interest, Teproc gives more than I do, so I'd say I'm a better lynch than him.
But you're (supposedly) town, and he might be scum. Self-preservation should always be in your interest. Unless you know, the other candidate is your scum partner who you think will do better than you going forward.
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Eh, I'm not really opposed to an e lynch... those last couple of posts seemed to be on the townier side though... But I think we're lucky if we get any lynch through given the current activity levels, let alone a completely new wagon. Not that I like that, but it's the way it is.
This is exactly what I am talking about
Well I just continue to think that Teproc/RR are better shots at finding scum. If that makes me Hedgy McHegdelord, then so be it.
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Eh, I'm not really opposed to an e lynch... those last couple of posts seemed to be on the townier side though... But I think we're lucky if we get any lynch through given the current activity levels, let alone a completely new wagon. Not that I like that, but it's the way it is.
I mean if you voted for 2.7 it would be the largest wagon... This isn't a completely new wagon... At all...
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But self preservation is not my interest, Teproc gives more than I do, so I'd say I'm a better lynch than him.
But you're (supposedly) town, and he might be scum. Self-preservation should always be in your interest. Unless you know, the other candidate is your scum partner who you think will do better than you going forward.
This isn't true. As a VT in a game other than this one, it's a good idea to act like a PR to draw a night kill.
Teproc is probably a better town player than I am, so I want to keep him alive.
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Eh, I'm not really opposed to an e lynch... those last couple of posts seemed to be on the townier side though... But I think we're lucky if we get any lynch through given the current activity levels, let alone a completely new wagon. Not that I like that, but it's the way it is.
I mean if you voted for 2.7 it would be the largest wagon... This isn't a completely new wagon... At all...
Yeah, the vote count was a bit surprising there. I do think that numerous people on RR/Teproc would be willing to lynch both though, and overall I feel that people are more opposed to an e lynch (like me/gkrieg). Plus other than you only RR is on that wagon currently, and that as well is not giving me the best feeling.
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And it isn't like teproc is the only alternative for him staying alive. There is 2.7... Who he is votingg for. If you want to look at someone wi no self preservation look at teproc...
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Eh, I'm not really opposed to an e lynch... those last couple of posts seemed to be on the townier side though... But I think we're lucky if we get any lynch through given the current activity levels, let alone a completely new wagon. Not that I like that, but it's the way it is.
I mean if you voted for 2.7 it would be the largest wagon... This isn't a completely new wagon... At all...
Yeah, the vote count was a bit surprising there. I do think that numerous people on RR/Teproc would be willing to lynch both though, and overall I feel that people are more opposed to an e lynch (like me/gkrieg). Plus other than you only RR is on that wagon currently, and that as well is not giving me the best feeling.
I disagree. I feel like many are either/or with teproc/RR and many have said 2.7 is scummy-that is the part that gets me feeling like there is scum who is hedging but not voting on a partner-but haven't actually voted for him...
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But self preservation is not my interest, Teproc gives more than I do, so I'd say I'm a better lynch than him.
But you're (supposedly) town, and he might be scum. Self-preservation should always be in your interest. Unless you know, the other candidate is your scum partner who you think will do better than you going forward.
This isn't true. As a VT in a game other than this one, it's a good idea to act like a PR to draw a night kill.
Teproc is probably a better town player than I am, so I want to keep him alive.
Oh yeah, self-preservation only applies in lynch scenarios (in general).
Again, what if Teproc is not town? Or do you have so many scum reads that the probability of Teproc being scum is really low for you? In that case, let's hear them.
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What happens when I flip town? Do you guys still gun for Teproc?
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But self preservation is not my interest, Teproc gives more than I do, so I'd say I'm a better lynch than him.
But you're (supposedly) town, and he might be scum. Self-preservation should always be in your interest. Unless you know, the other candidate is your scum partner who you think will do better than you going forward.
This isn't true. As a VT in a game other than this one, it's a good idea to act like a PR to draw a night kill.
Teproc is probably a better town player than I am, so I want to keep him alive.
Oh yeah, self-preservation only applies in lynch scenarios (in general).
Again, what if Teproc is not town? Or do you have so many scum reads that the probability of Teproc being scum is really low for you? In that case, let's hear them.
My scum read is 2.7. Let's lynch him then go feom there.
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I'm here. RR is still the biggest wagon. Still supporting RR.
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Eh, I'm not really opposed to an e lynch... those last couple of posts seemed to be on the townier side though... But I think we're lucky if we get any lynch through given the current activity levels, let alone a completely new wagon. Not that I like that, but it's the way it is.
I mean if you voted for 2.7 it would be the largest wagon... This isn't a completely new wagon... At all...
Yeah, the vote count was a bit surprising there. I do think that numerous people on RR/Teproc would be willing to lynch both though, and overall I feel that people are more opposed to an e lynch (like me/gkrieg). Plus other than you only RR is on that wagon currently, and that as well is not giving me the best feeling.
I disagree. I feel like many are either/or with teproc/RR and many have said 2.7 is scummy-that is the part that gets me feeling like there is scum who is hedging but not voting on a partner-but haven't actually voted for him...
I get what you mean, but doesn't this behaviour only make sense for scum if RR and Teproc are both town? Well, that's a tough sell for me.
Ultimately I don't think I'm the one you need to convince anyway. I'll go to sleep soon, and come back for the deadline, and then if e is at L-1 I will most certainly hammer him.
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I'm here. RR is still the biggest wagon. Still supporting RR.
Will you be there for the deadline? What do you think of Teproc/e? Please show a bit more interest in the game.
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But self preservation is not my interest, Teproc gives more than I do, so I'd say I'm a better lynch than him.
But you're (supposedly) town, and he might be scum. Self-preservation should always be in your interest. Unless you know, the other candidate is your scum partner who you think will do better than you going forward.
This isn't true. As a VT in a game other than this one, it's a good idea to act like a PR to draw a night kill.
Teproc is probably a better town player than I am, so I want to keep him alive.
Oh yeah, self-preservation only applies in lynch scenarios (in general).
Again, what if Teproc is not town? Or do you have so many scum reads that the probability of Teproc being scum is really low for you? In that case, let's hear them.
My scum read is 2.7. Let's lynch him then go feom there.
There are 3 scum in the game. Why can't one of them be Teproc?
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We can look at 2.7/Teproc interactions after Teproc is dead.
Vote: Teproc This is dumb though.
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I probably won't be around for deadline. We're having people over for Easter!
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I'll be here for deadline
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I'm here. RR is still the biggest wagon. Still supporting RR.
Will you be there for the deadline? What do you think of Teproc/e? Please show a bit more interest in the game.
*sigh* I've answered all of this before. Except for the deadline question. Yes, I'll be here.
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I'm here. RR is still the biggest wagon. Still supporting RR.
Will you be there for the deadline? What do you think of Teproc/e? Please show a bit more interest in the game.
*sigh* I've answered all of this before. Except for the deadline question. Yes, I'll be here.
Would it kill you to restate it again, for the people who don't have the same amazing memory you have?
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I'll be here for deadline
Other thoughts?
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Anyway, seems like we have 3-4 people for the deadline? Should be enough to get a lynch in at least.
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Quick post again. But if it's between tep/rr I'd vote rr. I'll do that when I get home and check vote counts and stuff
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What evs... I have no idea if I'll be on for deadline. I just want to publicly state that Faust had an opportunity to make 2.7 a legit wagon and declined to do so. I don't know what that means at this point but I want people to remember it
vote: 2.7
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Oops that was supposed to be voting for vote: teproc likely my last post of the game but I could be on later...
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Hi? I'm here, sorry for the absence.
Wait, am I lynched here ?
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No, looks like it's me or RR.
Well, vote: RR. Didn't have time to read, hectic stuff IRL + internet problems are not a great combo for forum mafia. I'll get to it however, this week should be quieter.
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I guess there's e too, but the RR lynch seems much better from what I remember.
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Deadline is in about 12 hours right ? I should be around a few hours before that.
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What evs... I have no idea if I'll be on for deadline. I just want to publicly state that Faust had an opportunity to make 2.7 a legit wagon and declined to do so. I don't know what that means at this point but I want people to remember it
vote: 2.7
I sure hope it means something good!
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Unofficial Vote Count 2.0:
Teproc (4): faust, scott_pilgrim, Roadrunner7671, yuma (Hydrad)
Roadrunner7671 (4): silverspawn, EgorK, gkrieg13, Teproc
Hydrad (1): 2.71828
gkrieg13 (1): Hydrad
Not Voting (1): Witherweaver
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Since I am pretty sure that e won't be lynching Teproc, this looks very much like RR is going to be lynched here. Well I would still prefer Teproc, but I don't have the energy to do more convincing. gkrieg could switch this thing one way or the other.
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WW could switch.
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Vote: Teproc
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L-1
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I will hammer for a lynch.
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I mean, I understand that lynch > no lynch in whatever scenario we are in here
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Vote Count 2.7
Teproc (5): faust, scott_pilgrim, Roadrunner7671, yuma, Witherweaver (L-1)
Roadrunner7671 (5): silverspawn, EgorK, gkrieg13, 2.71828, Teproc (L-1)
gkrieg13 (1): Hydrad
With 11 players alive, it takes 6 to lynch. Day Two will end Monday, March 28th, 7 am. forum time.
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oh boy... i should of jumped on RR before everyones at L-1. Now its actually my choice. This is annoying.
I'm still feeling like hitting RR though.
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So I'm pretty much going to be hammering RR here I think. I'll give it a bit before I do incase someone wants to say something or I dunno. But ya thats where I'm at right now.
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So I'm pretty much going to be hammering RR here I think. I'll give it a bit before I do incase someone wants to say something or I dunno. But ya thats where I'm at right now.
How about I say if you vote RR you become my number two suspect behind 2.7...
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So I'm pretty much going to be hammering RR here I think. I'll give it a bit before I do incase someone wants to say something or I dunno. But ya thats where I'm at right now.
Do not hammer me I can literally prove my innocence tomorrow
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So I'm pretty much going to be hammering RR here I think. I'll give it a bit before I do incase someone wants to say something or I dunno. But ya thats where I'm at right now.
How about I say if you vote RR you become my number two suspect behind 2.7...
What a time to be alive!
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So I'm pretty much going to be hammering RR here I think. I'll give it a bit before I do incase someone wants to say something or I dunno. But ya thats where I'm at right now.
Do not hammer me I can literally prove my innocence tomorrow
what? how in the world can you do that.
theres no PR powers that you will be able to say like oh hey I'm a cop and this is what I've done.
So if you had a way you would of brought it up by now right? I don't see how tomorrow can help.
Plus didn't you just post on like the last page of how you should be lynched over teproc? You just did like a full 180 out of nowhere.
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180s are what I do 8)
But yes, I still have a card to play. I don't want to play it but if you intend to hammer (and put it in bold) I'll play my card.
But as town, you don't want to force my hand. Trust me.
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Seriously do not hamnmer me unannounced.
I'm coming online at 6:00 AM forum time.
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Dude, RR. Your threats are completely empty. I mean, knowing the setup and everything there is absolutely nothing to what your saying.
Anyway, I am about to go to sleep and won't wake up until after the deadline. Seriously considering just voting Teproc here to be done with it.
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I can still claim Survivor.
-
I can still claim Survivor.
ha.
ha.
ha.
ha.
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nah I think I'm just going to hammer RR before I sleep.
RR if you really want to make a case or something you can do it before I sleep. Before I go to bed I'm going to hammer. So if you somehow convince me that your obv town nows the time to do it. I'll probably sleep in a 2 hours maybe longer (probably longer since I stay up to late for no reason)
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yuma is trying to bully people into lynching me, and I have no idea why. I get taht you think I'm scum, but really ?
I saw omewhere that faust was surprised at my refusal to vote for RR... that's a thing ? I'm pretty sure I voted for RR on day 1? it's just that I'm incapable of reading him and I like to lynch people who I think are scum.
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I'm tired. good night
Vote: RR
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technically, RR asked you to state intent in bold before you hammer. but whatevas, he's prob scum.
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Wouldn't go so far as "prob", but it's better than me at least.
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Well, I am quite okay with this lynch. I don't know what those last minute "prove my innocence" was supposed to be about... trying to force a no lynch? Trying to get lynched? Guess we'll never know (unless RR comes online before ADK does).
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Nah I was town.
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yuma is trying to bully people into lynching me, and I have no idea why. I get taht you think I'm scum, but really ?
It means I think RR is town, more than I think you are. But I lied about how I would read hydrad. I now read him pretty townie.
It really had more to do with trying to get a read off hydrad at this point and salvage something from this day...
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Well, I am quite okay with this lynch. I don't know what those last minute "prove my innocence" was supposed to be about... trying to force a no lynch? Trying to get lynched? Guess we'll never know (unless RR comes online before ADK does).
Well now it's bad for the town for me to tell you.
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I am lynched, right?
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THREAD LOCKED
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Roadrunner7671 has been lynched! He was a Vanilla Townie!
Final Vote Count
Teproc (5): faust, scott_pilgrim, Roadrunner7671, yuma, Witherweaver
Roadrunner7671 (6): silverspawn, EgorK, gkrieg13, 2.71828, Teproc, Hydrad
With 11 players alive, it took 6 to lynch. Night Two begins now and ends at 7 am forum time Wednesday, March 30. Deadline for Neighborhood actions is 7 am forum time, Tuesday March 29th.
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Day Three Start
yuma, the Vanilla Townie, was killed in the night!
Vote Count 3.0
Not Voting (9): faust, silverspawn, 2.71828, Hydrad, EgorK, gkrieg13, Teproc, Witherweaver, scott_pilgrim
With 9 alive it takes 5 to lynch. Day Three begins now and ends at 7 am forum time Saturday, April 9th.
THREAD UNLOCKED.
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That is... uh. Doctors, just what exactly did you do?
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Vote: gkrieg to begin with. Definitely lynching within the Doctor neighborhood is in order.
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Vote: gkrieg to begin with. Definitely lynching within the Doctor neighborhood is in order.
Why is this the obvious conclusion? I don't see it as clearly as you do
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Vote: gkrieg to begin with. Definitely lynching within the Doctor neighborhood is in order.
Why is this the obvious conclusion? I don't see it as clearly as you do
Because yuma was the obvious target for a Doctor, and scum would only feel safe killing him if they knew that he would not be saved.
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faust is jumping to conclusions, but we certainly need to hear from doctors first.
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Actually scratch that : faust is just right. No way scum just goes ahead and kills yuma without knowing for sure he wasn't protected.
Who are the doctors again ? WW and... Limetime/gkrieg, right. Well, still want to hear from them first.
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Yep, definitely want to hear gkrieg and WW stories
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That is... uh. Doctors, just what exactly did you do?
I targeted you.
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Why was Yuma an obvious target?
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Vote: Gkrieg
Gkrieg voted me to do the doctoring immediately, before any discussion. You're not really that confident someone else is town unless you're scum.
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He also suggested Faust as a target, though I don't see why that's an issue.
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The only people who know what scum are thinking are scum. Saying someone is an "obvious target" is a stretch.
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The only people who know what scum are thinking are scum. Saying someone is an "obvious target" is a stretch.
I agree.
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I thought Faust was a good target to Doctor. We only had 24 hours to make a decision so I put down an initial vote. When WW came into the neighborhood, he just agreed and that was it. I just wanted to make sure I had a vote down
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I thought Faust was a good target to Doctor. We only had 24 hours to make a decision so I put down an initial vote. When WW came into the neighborhood, he just agreed and that was it. I just wanted to make sure I had a vote down
But why would you not want to be the one taking the action?
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Why would I want you to take the action as scum? I guess there is the pgo neighborhood, but that would be the only reason.
i didn't really think it mattered who it was I guess
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Why would I want you to take the action as scum? I guess there is the pgo neighborhood, but that would be the only reason.
i didn't really think it mattered who it was I guess
If you're scum, it doesn't matter that I take the action, since you can shoot elsewhere. If you're town, you don't know that I'm town.... and actually I suppose it doesn't matter much at that point.. if you suspect I'm scum I either choose not to protect my target or shoot elsewhere. I hadn't thought of that before.
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Still, I found it odd that you voted for me.
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Why was Yuma an obvious target?
TownslipTM
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Why are we lynching from the doctor neighborhood again?
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Why are we lynching from the doctor neighborhood again?
Because yuma got killed, and yuma was the prime protection target.
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gkrieg: Did you finish rereading before picking a target?
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Also gkrieg was the Hedgemaster at the end of D2:
I would go for RR. I would also vote for Teproc, but I'm not feeling the e lynch
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yuma was an obvious target because he was everyone's top townread... I thought that was obvious.
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You miss one day of Mafia and suddenly your townslip doesn't make you an IC any more~
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You miss one day of Mafia and suddenly your townslip doesn't make you an IC any more~
If you were under the impression that your townsliip made you an IC yeah. It was about as significant as your scumslip.
Besides, if we're lynching a Doctor it's not going to be you, I'd hope.
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On that note, though I still need to catchup on some of day 1 that I've missed :
vote: gkrieg
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Also gkrieg was the Hedgemaster at the end of D2:
I would go for RR. I would also vote for Teproc, but I'm not feeling the e lynch
We were close to the deadline, so I don't think this is very hedgy. I had done a quick reread and was fine with lynching either of them because I thought both were scummy. I don't think e is scummy.
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You miss one day of Mafia and suddenly your townslip doesn't make you an IC any more~
If you were under the impression that your townsliip made you an IC yeah. It was about as significant as your scumslip.
Besides, if we're lynching a Doctor it's not going to be you, I'd hope.
I need to SK slip or something and get a trifecta.
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yuma was an obvious target because he was everyone's top townread... I thought that was obvious.
I guess I missed that part. I hadn't finished a complete reread of D2 by the time I had made my decision, and I don't really believe in townslips. I mean there are obvious things to make you seem townier, but if anyone is going to have a calculated townslip as scum, it would be yuma
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I hadn't finished a complete reread of D2 by the time I had made my decision
Why the hell not?
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I hadn't finished a complete reread of D2 by the time I had made my decision
Why the hell not?
It was Easter.
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I hadn't finished a complete reread of D2 by the time I had made my decision
Why the hell not?
It was Easter.
Fair enough I guess? But it seems weird that you were going into the QT making suggestions then... you could have just let WW decide, who has followed the whole game.
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I hadn't finished a complete reread of D2 by the time I had made my decision
Why the hell not?
It was Easter.
Fair enough I guess? But it seems weird that you were going into the QT making suggestions then... you could have just let WW decide, who has followed the whole game.
Well, I had forgotten about the Yuma thing as well. And I didn't follow a lot of yesterday.
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I hadn't finished a complete reread of D2 by the time I had made my decision
Why the hell not?
It was Easter.
Fair enough I guess? But it seems weird that you were going into the QT making suggestions then... you could have just let WW decide, who has followed the whole game.
Well I did think there would be more discussion. I said something like I'm gonna say WW doctors faust just to get something down. Then he just agreed with me, so I figured it was a good idea.
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I just do not see scum going to yuma unless they are sure he is not protected. So, Vote: gkrieg
Also, was there successful motion detection?
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I just do not see scum going to yuma unless they are sure he is not protected. So, Vote: gkrieg
Also, was there successful motion detection?
Scummy unannounced L-1 is scummy.
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I really missed the part where Yuma was a universal IC
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I'm much less convinced about this...
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This wagon feels really scummy to me.
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Two things can explain yuma's death :
- scum was in the doctor neighborhood
- scum wasn't aware that yuma was a near-universal townread
The second one is unlikely, but anyway the two people who didn't get that memo also happen to be the doctors.
WHere do you disagree ?
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scum could also try to kill him because he is a universal townread.
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scum could also try to kill him because he is a universal townread.
Given that, what would make them think he wouldn't be protected ? It all comes back to the doctors.
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they could take a risk, make mistakes, etc.
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they could take a risk, make mistakes, etc.
Why would mafia risk getting their kill blocked ? Like, what's the reward there ? Killing yuma is nice, but not that vastly superior to killing other townies, not enough to risk getting blocked anyway.
As for making a istake, it comes back to people not aware yuma was a more or less universal town read. Who were those people again ? Oh, right.
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scum could also try to kill him because he is a universal townread.
If they thought he was a universal townread, then so was WW (same townslip argument). Then killing WW>killing yuma because Doctors cannot self-protect. In fact I 100% expected WW to die. It makes zero sense to take a risk, especially because if they killed WW tonight, Doctors would be disabled the following night and they could safely kill yuma.
So you have to assume that the scum team (still 3 people mind you) made a mistake. What scum team do you have in mind that would make this kind of mistake?
PPE: 1
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This also makes me suspect WW, cause you know, why the hell is he still alive?
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But WW immediately bought into the "there has to be scum among Doctors" narrative. That's not a winning strategy for scum.
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I disagree that WW was as townie as yuma, because you are vastlt, vastly overestimating the importance of their "townslips". I for one didn't (and don't) particularly think WW was/is town, and I don't think he was unlynchable in they way yuma would have been (also because yuma is generally hard to lynch as either alignment).
PPE : Well, yeah, that's obviously where your reasoning was leading you. Nice job pretending it wasn't on purpose though !
Ignore that, I don't know why scum!you would do that, but reading that first post made me think "makes sense for faust to think WW is scum then"
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Maybe because I wasn't really present yesterday.
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I disagree that WW was as townie as yuma, because you are vastlt, vastly overestimating the importance of their "townslips". I for one didn't (and don't) particularly think WW was/is town, and I don't think he was unlynchable in they way yuma would have been (also because yuma is generally hard to lynch as either alignment).
Well yuma was definitely more pro-town, but like I said, killing a Doc has additional benefits, and I think WW would still have been a very solid night kill choice. And I was under the impression that WW was a near universal town read, whether warranted or not.
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Of course Teproc is still immensely scummy too. Don't forget that.
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vote: faust
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Of course Teproc is still immensely scummy too. Don't forget that.
How could anyone forget !
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Hm... I actually have like no townreads. I think Egor is town.. Faust seems more suspicious now.. at some point I started seeing the "frustrated town Teproc" thing over the "scum Teproc thing". I'm not sure.. everyone else save Gkrieg I have basically no opinion on.
For whatever it's worth, what I said about Gkrieg above is a retelling of my immediate reaction to the QT post, like two days ago.
Also, re: Yuma dying; scum could have also gotten the Roleblocking ability and blocked me, assuming that I would be taking the action over Gkrieg (which is sensible I think).
Actually.. maybe that latter thing doesn't make sense. If you get voted to take the action you can't change the target, right? You can only opt to not target? So, that doesn't make sense. Ignore me.
PPEs
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So we have
- Scum among doctors
- Teproc being really scummy
- WW being scummy
If we lynch all of them and don't hit scum, the game is over
Plus
In fact I 100% expected WW to die.
Because yuma was the obvious target for a Doctor, and scum would only feel safe killing him if they knew that he would not be saved.
those contradict each other.
And then there's RR whom he supported and who's town.
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It feels to me as if you're just trying to get people lynched rather than trying to find scum
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So we have
- Scum among doctors
- Teproc being really scummy
- WW being scummy
If we lynch all of them and don't hit scum, the game is over
Plus
In fact I 100% expected WW to die.
Because yuma was the obvious target for a Doctor, and scum would only feel safe killing him if they knew that he would not be saved.
those contradict each other.
And then there's RR whom he supported and who's town.
They do not contradict because Doctors cannot self-target. Please read my posts.
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RR was a roleblocker, so there was noroleblocking last night.
Also, silver, how has WW been scummy ?
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Unvote
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It feels to me as if you're just trying to get people lynched rather than trying to find scum
It feels to me as if Limetime/gkrieg is your scum partner.
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Whether or not Yuma was a better doctor choice, if I'm the best night kill choice, then Yuma dying pushing for doctor scum argument is still flawed.
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Fine, they don't contradict. But you're the player who has advocated the idea of scum making mistakes all the time in the past, and now you're saying they would surely have killed WW. Doesn't fit.
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Also, silver, how has WW been scummy ?
I was summarizing what faust has been saying. I don't think WW is scummy.
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But WW immediately bought into the "there has to be scum among Doctors" narrative. That's not a winning strategy for scum.
Well I think since yesterday, the docs should have been going pretty hard after each other, it's actually weird to me that they weren't doing that more. From their perspective it was like a 60% chance each other was scum I think instead of like 30%. Everything changes today, except I think we can't know the probabilities exactly without knowing what neighborhood yuma was in (which I'm not saying someone should claim). My intuition says that the probability a doc is scum actually goes down today relative to a random player, but the fact that yuma was NK'd is a little odd. Really it's odd in any situation though. If they went for him knowing he wasn't protected, they should be aware of how that looks for them.
It's possible I guess that scum doesn't have a doc, and they killed yuma hoping that would make it really look like they do have a doc, so it sets up two mislynches, which, if that actually happens, wins them the game. So it would be a pretty risky play but I guess they might think it's worth it if they think it could potentially win them the game.
It would have made a lot more sense in any case if RR hadn't claimed RB. They might have thought the RB's would think they blocked the kill, except RR's claim means they should have known that wasn't possible. Or maybe they just forgot about it...though honestly out of the players alive I don't think you could pick three of them that wouldn't think about those kinds of things.
I was going to vote for gkrieg but apparently he's at L-1. Well I don't think WW is off the table. I'm a little wary of how quickly the wagon on gkrieg just went. There are still some important probabilities to do today I think.
PPE like a million
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Here's a stroboscope wagon analysis. That's a thing now.
D1:
First we have two competing wagons on RR/Limetime (later gkrieg)
Roadrunner7671 (4): gkrieg13, Limetime, yuma, Hydrad
Limetime (4): 2.71828, Roadrunner7671, silverspawn, EgorK
The Limetime wagon dissolves, and instead a Teproc wagon forms, but with different people:
Roadrunner7671 (4): gkrieg13, yuma, Hydrad, Joseph2302
Limetime (2): Roadrunner7671, EgorK
Teproc (3): scott_pilgrim, faust, Witherweaver
Soon everyone jumps onto RR, which given how many townies are already on there... could be a scum move.
Roadrunner7671 (6): gkrieg13, yuma, Hydrad, Limetime, Witherweaver, Joseph2302 (silver was also here briefly)
Limetime (1): EgorK
Teproc (2): scott_pilgrim, Roadrunner7671
From this build 3 major suspects: Teproc, RR, Joseph. We know two of those are town, which makes the Teproc wagon the towniest to be on.
Roadrunner7671 (4): yuma, Hydrad, Limetime, Teproc
Teproc (3): scott_pilgrim, Witherweaver, Joseph2302
Joseph2303 (3): faust, EgorK, silverspawn
Joseph attracts more attention and leaves us with this final vote count:
Roadrunner7671 (2): yuma, Limetime
Teproc (2): Witherweaver, Joseph2302
Joseph2303 (7): faust, EgorK, silverspawn, 2.71828, scott_piglrim, Hydrad, Teproc
faust (1): Roadrunner7671
Not Voting (1): gkrieg13
Man... do you think all scum were on-wagon for Joseph? I know I don't, not when the alternative lynch was RR (or maybe Teproc I guess? Still...) And guess who wasn't on-wagon and isn't conf!town? That's right...
PPE: 9
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Fine, they don't contradict. But you're the player who has advocated the idea of scum making mistakes all the time in the past, and now you're saying they would surely have killed WW. Doesn't fit.
I don't think that is correct.
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Silver/Limetime (Gkrieg) sounds reasonable.
I feel like the wagon on me should be in that D1 analysis.
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Silver/Limetime (Gkrieg) sounds reasonable.
I feel like the wagon on me should be in that D1 analysis.
Heh. I only searched vote counts... so I guess the wagon on you happened in between vote counts.
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Silver/Limetime (Gkrieg) sounds reasonable.
I feel like the wagon on me should be in that D1 analysis.
Heh. I only searched vote counts... so I guess the wagon on you happened in between vote counts.
Yeah, it doesn't look like there was a count in it.
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I can't count apparently. Sorry for unannounced L-1
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I have some crazy conspiracy theory, but it has to do with neihgborhood claims, so I don't think it's worth sharing.
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WW: Yuma, Teproc, Faust,
Faust votes for Teproc, then:
WW: Yuma, Teproc, SS
Then it dies down.
Interesting that SS starts it but doesn't vote until later.
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By 'interesting' I mean, I would lynch Silver today.
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Gkrieg may still be better. I want to reread before we decide on a lynch today.
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so faust. I think the way he votes and reads other people is pretty bad. But let me post a summary before I look into it more, maybe I reach another conclusion.
voting history:
#93: faust votes Roadrunner7671
#145: faust votes Witherweaver
#161: faust votes Roadrunner7671
#219: faust votes Witherweaver
#231: faust votes Witherweaver
#250: faust votes Teproc
#320: faust votes scott_pilgrim
#376: faust votes Teproc
#489: faust votes silverspawn
#574: faust votes Joseph2302
#696: faust votes Teproc
#923: faust votes Roadrunner7671
#1074: faust votes Teproc
#1177: faust votes e
#1179: faust votes Teproc
#1298: faust votes gkrieg13
collection of reads:
I'd encourage everyone to create some form of cryptology in their neighborhood to make it a day chat. Is this legal?
9. Cryptography is not allowed.
And this seems like a grab for towncred. I pointed you to the same rule when you had that question in GOP Mafia.
Vote: RR
Facts for future:
My firstpost in the neighborhood QT was at 10:20 PM (EST) on March 6. Both other neighbors posted (one message each) before me. I posted a thought in there and there was no response.
There was no mod announcement to say who was in the neighborhood.
Thread locked at 7:00 PM (EST) on March 7. I'm assuming all of these (including scum QT) closed around the same time. That's enough time for scum to share who was in my neighborhood if one of my neighbors is scum.
So, readin through I noticed that WW either had not noticed that scum has a daychat or cleverly planted fake townslip
Well now. That is what a proper townslip (whether fake or real) looks like.
I think WW is pretty solidly town at this point. Do not want to lynch.
I still want to discuss neighborhood claiming at some point... but I'm fine simply leaving the decision up to gkrieg.
I'd say it's like Yuma > Teproc > Faust > Silver.
For me it's more like Teproc > silver > yuma (> faust obviously). I don't really want to switch my vote to the least favorite option. Also all of these are players that I often read as scum when they're town.
Vote: scott seems alright. Giving too much credit for a town slip is a scum tell.
About a Hydrad post:
This reads mildly townie, or maybe I'm just biased because I agree.
RR has been remarkably absent these last couple of hours.
So, noone has more to say about this?
I find the whole backing off of the WW wagon after the "slip" highly suspect. Like if WW was your top scum read before it happened, the slip just isn't enough to justify a full 180° turn. And even if it was, you know, people have confirmation bias, and I expected at least some to maintain scum!WW as an option.
e seems much like town!e from M75.
So, let's read Teproc.
[...]
So I guess this reread turned out differently from what I expected? I don't have a town read on Teproc now, mind you, but I also don't think he's the best lynch anymore.
So I still don't want to join the RR wagon... maybe vote: silver? I can reread him next and then see my read crumble there as well. That will be fun.
So how about silver? I feel that one will be quicker.
[...]
That's pretty bad. And there's a whole lot of fluff in between. I'm okay keeping my vote there for now.
silver's flipflopping is highly interesting though. I don't really see why scum!silver would do this. Unless like he's partners with Joseph and gets off the wagon so Joseph can get on for weird towncred... that doesn't sound plausible. But we have to remember that things like silver unvoting and Joseph stating intent to hammer afterwards can be orchestrated with daytalk. I think there is a tendency to ignore the impact daytalk has on scum play. Well. It doesn't really make sense to orchestrate what happened here. But keep daytalk in mind.
Reads List:
Roadrunner7671 - well who knows. One could argue that scumpartners would encourage him to be more active. His reaction to the intent to hammer is tentatively townie.
gkrieg13 - IC
faust - also IC!
silverspawn - well as a said not a lot of content, but that recent episode seemed genuine.
yuma - has a slip going on and he's overall active and making sense and posting good stuff.
2.71828 - I remember initially having a town read on him. Felt like in the other game... M75?
Hydrad - there was one post in the beginning that read tonwie to me. Nothing since then though.
EgorK - the one thing he has going for himself is pointing out WW's slip. That makes him a bad choice compared to other lurkers.
Joseph2302 - I remember very little about the guy. Which, given the amount of townreads I have, makes him very lynchable.
Limetime - see above.
Teproc - could go either way really. I'm bad at reading him and honestly I'd prefer to lynch a lurker.
Witherweaver - slip makes him unlynchable today.
scott_pilgrim - had one post that read townie and little else.
So overall...
Want to lynch: Limetime, Joseph
Would lynch: Teproc, Hydrad, RR, scott
Might be persuaded to lynch: e, silver, Egor
Won't lynch: yuma, WW
Let's try a vote: Joseph
Joseph reread.[...]Everything seems rather scummy here.
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Yeah, there are plenty of things which aren't looking good (towny) there.
Look at how he is keeping his options open. Town reads have been expressed on
WW, whom he's now going after
RR (a bit), whom he then got lynched
and I guess e and Hydrad and maybe me. Hydrad he could easily flip on, since he's been looking rather bad recently. Same is true for me. So e is the only thing which would limit his lynch options.
The people who he has pushed in some way:
Joseph who flipped town
RR who flipped town
WW who probably is town
silver who is town
Teproc who is ?
gkrieg who is ?
SP who is ?
not sure if this summary is picks or if it's fair, but I'm really leaning scum on faust.
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Roadrunner7671 (2): yuma, Limetime
Teproc (2): Witherweaver, Joseph2302
Joseph2303 (7): faust, EgorK, silverspawn, 2.71828, scott_piglrim, Hydrad, Teproc
faust (1): Roadrunner7671
Not Voting (1): gkrieg13
Man... do you think all scum were on-wagon for Joseph? I know I don't, not when the alternative lynch was RR (or maybe Teproc I guess? Still...) And guess who wasn't on-wagon and isn't conf!town? That's right...
PPE: 9
Interesting point, although I have seen all scum be on wagon before.
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There's also this
Really? I mean, the thing is, he worked it into his defense of how his other thing wasn't a fake town slip. Like, I get that either of those isn't the most amazing trick by themselves, but I feel like putting them together would take a lot of really clever planning.
Certainly good enough for a D1 pass. Certainly not good enough for "I'll just consider you an IC for the rest of the game".
No, I mean obviously it's an overstatement. I just meant leave him alone for a while.
It is by the way definitely more likely to construct a fake like that if scum has daychat.
in terms of keeping options open. He even criticized SP for giving too much weight to townslips.
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Plus, if it's going bad, lynch faust. We all forgot this rule!
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That's because rules are dumb. We can lynch faust later, right now our best odds are definitely among the doctors.
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That's because rules are dumb. We can lynch faust later, right now our best odds are definitely among the doctors.
Well, I disagree. I think WW is town and gkrieg... his response seemed totally believable.
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OH I was just about to vote gkrieg and then someone said it was l-1 now what do I do :(
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OH I was just about to vote gkrieg and then someone said it was l-1 now what do I do :(
When did you get here?
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I won't have time to defend myself today probably. This is my long day for classes :(.
But don't lynch me!
I will say that I don't have a scum read on WW, and I think people putting the blame on me for not having reread, when they aren't saying anything about him when he was in the game!
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I will say that I don't have a scum read on WW, and I think people putting the blame on me for not having reread, when they aren't saying anything about him when he was in the game!
So you don't have a scum read on WW, but you want us to have one?
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Joseph who flipped town
RR who flipped town
WW who probably is town
silver who is town
Teproc who is ?
gkrieg who is ?
SP who is ?
not sure if this summary is picks or if it's fair, but I'm really leaning scum on faust.
So this. Well I won't deny that I pushed hard for Joseph. But everyone except WW and gkrieg voted for Joseph, so that's not really saying much... and for what it's worth I think leading the charge there like I did is much townier than sheeping that read, like most others (including you) did.
RR... well, yeah... ish. I had a chance to hammer him (twice) and did not. I clearly pushed Teproc over him for most of D2. You can call that hedgy, maybe, but I don't remember a single person defending RR, so that cannot really make me scummier than any other player.
I didn't even "push" WW. I never voted for him (I think). I posted a thought that he might be scum. But mostly I still think he's town. Hence my confidence in the gkrieg lynch.
silver... uh I don't remember "pushing" you either. And even if I did well you can still be scum, so who knows, maybe I was right if I did?
Teproc and gkrieg are still very good candidates for pushing.
I never "pushed" scott. My vote ended up there once, that's hardly saying anything. I'm a jumpy voter, everyone can check this.
And finally, this list is like hugely misleading in a way I really don't like. The bottom line is "look, here's a list of people faust pushed, and none of them is scum!" Well nobody has flipped scum. Nobody's list would look better than my list here because there cannot be any conf!scum in them. Yet you use this as though it shows that my reads have been worse than everyone else's.
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OH I was just about to vote gkrieg and then someone said it was l-1 now what do I do :(
I think someone unvoted since. But it's your responsibility to check that.
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You voted for me D1.
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You voted for me D1.
Twice, actually. The second one was some kind of emphasis I guess.
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Well nobody has flipped scum. Nobody's list would look better than my list here because there cannot be any conf!scum in them.
Ehm... yes they could. They could have voted for people who's alignment is up in the air. You voted for a lot of conf!town people. As did I, but not everyone else.
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You know, I think silver is right.
vote: faust
I don't think town!faust would still be tunneling me at this point. Most notable is that I completely forgot that faust was a driving force in the Joseph wagon, because all everyone's been interesting in talking about in that wagon is my hammer. Now that's partly my fault as I haven't done rereads and have thus spent most of my time defending myself, but still, faust neatly scuttled wagon analysis by doing it all himself and going for the easy door I opened up for him by hammering in a manner that could be seen as scummy (it still isn't, by the way). Now I still do think there is scum in the doctors, and faust is intending to bus one of them... wait.
That last part might not make sense. scum!faust wants to be bussed, not the reverse.
Hmm. Maybe not then.
vote: gkrieg
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That last part might not make sense. scum!faust wants to be bussed, not the reverse.
He was vocal about this intent last time he was scum, so he may not necessarily do the same thing here.
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Well nobody has flipped scum. Nobody's list would look better than my list here because there cannot be any conf!scum in them.
Ehm... yes they could. They could have voted for people who's alignment is up in the air. You voted for a lot of conf!town people. As did I, but not everyone else.
"A lot" = 2 apparently. 2 people that almost everyone else voted for as well. Especially gkrieg=Limetime.
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faust neatly scuttled wagon analysis by doing it all himself
It's not my fault that other people are lazy.
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faust neatly scuttled wagon analysis by doing it all himself
It's not my fault that other people are lazy.
It's your fault that your analysis is no less lazy (boo hammers are bad !) and also wrong though.
@WW : Sure. Still seems pretty clear to me that lynching the doctors and hitting his partner (ideally you as it gets one more mislynch) doesn't end up a winning strategy for faust, though that depends on his other partner of course. Ultimately I think I like the odds of lynching a doctor more than lynching faust.
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OH I was just about to vote gkrieg and then someone said it was l-1 now what do I do :(
When did you get here?
Just when I posted that pretty much.
Seems like gkrieg is the lynch today. Vote: ww then
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Like, the fact that you take not hammering RR as a point of... pride ? towniness ? is a sign that your approach of wagon analysis is at best wrong, at worst fake.
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faust neatly scuttled wagon analysis by doing it all himself
It's not my fault that other people are lazy.
It's your fault that your analysis is no less lazy (boo hammers are bad !) and also wrong though.
Well that is true if I am indeed wrong. However of course we both know that the case on you isn't "boo hammers are bad".
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In fact I don't know that, but we've had this discussion already and I'm sure everyone is tired of it. I sure am.
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Like, the fact that you take not hammering RR as a point of... pride ? towniness ? is a sign that your approach of wagon analysis is at best wrong, at worst fake.
How so?
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You can't very well lynch scum if you never hammer anyone, can you ?
You act as if hammering was an inherently scummy thing to do.
RR... well, yeah... ish. I had a chance to hammer him (twice) and did not.
That's... if you're town and you think someone is scum, why wouldn't you hammer them ? JUst because RR flipped town the fact that you didn't hammer him is somehow proof of your towniness ? It is in fact quite the contrary : silver's point is that you have been keeping the lynch pool as wide open as possible, the fact hat you didn't hammer only tells me you didn't want to do the dirty work yourself, lest you lose the opportunity to get some easy mislynches out of supposedly scummy hammers. It also conveniently shifts theblame for the mislynch away from you despite your presence and activity on wagon... I mean this is all basic stuff, you know all this and your sudden... well, I don't know how to say it without being condescending, but I don't buy that you're all of a sudden clueless about how mafia works.
vote: faust
If only to pass the time beforewe lynch gkrieg since no one wants to do that too fast, because quicklynches are scaaaaary.
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Quicklynches are good if you hit scum and bad if you hit town, not unlike lynches. It's not unreasonable to take time to reread.
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I know, I know. In practice I don't think people will actually be rereading though, just look at how day 2 went.
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I know, I know. In practice I don't think people will actually be rereading though, just look at how day 2 went.
Right, well, I'd like to give it a try.
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That's... if you're town and you think someone is scum, why wouldn't you hammer them ?
Yes, it has become clear to me that this is not a concept you understand.
JUst because RR flipped town the fact that you didn't hammer him is somehow proof of your towniness ?
Proof of course not, evidence yes.
It is in fact quite the contrary : silver's point is that you have been keeping the lynch pool as wide open as possible
Is it? I thought it was that I have voted for 2 town players.
lest you lose the opportunity to get some easy mislynches out of supposedly scummy hammers.
It is also not my fault if others behave scummy, and frankly I'm growing very tired of you trying to paint a picture as though every single hammer is scummy. Have I complained one bit about the hammer on the last day?
It also conveniently shifts theblame for the mislynch away from you despite your presence and activity on wagon...
Interesting... how do you think I could have been "present" on the wagon if I could still hammer?
I mean this is all basic stuff, you know all this and your sudden... well, I don't know how to say it without being condescending, but I don't buy that you're all of a sudden clueless about how mafia works.
The irony...
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Vote Count 3.1
gkrieg13 (2): faust, EgorK
faust (2):silverspawn, Teproc
Witherweaver (1): Hydrad
Not Voting (4): 2.71828, gkrieg13, scott_pilgrim, Witherweaver
With 9 alive it takes 5 to lynch. Day Three begins now and ends at 7 am forum time Saturday, April 9th.
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oh I thought there were more vote: gkrieg
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Oh whoops
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JUst because RR flipped town the fact that you didn't hammer him is somehow proof of your towniness ?
Proof of course not, evidence yes.
Same word in French, I did mean evidence clearly. It's not. You not hammering RR when you could have is null, but you trying to get towncred off it is scummy.
As for being present on wagon, I was referring to Joseph here, not RR. The fact is that you were a driving force n the Joseph wagon, but you have managed to shift conversation in such a way that this has barely been discussed.
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Well I guess not the same word, just... of course there's no definitive proof of anything in this game, otherwise we wouldn't be playing it, would we ?
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WW: Yuma, Teproc, Faust,
Faust votes for Teproc, then:
WW: Yuma, Teproc, SS
Then it dies down.
Interesting that SS starts it but doesn't vote until later.
Oh, I was wrong about this. SS initially voted me to start. So my highest wagon was 4: SS, Yuma, Teproc, Faust.
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Relevant post:
My claim: I am a Vanilla Townie.
So am I
Why are you claiming this?
scummy scumslip is scummy vote: WW
I am a VT. But if you are not, you could have an easier time forgetting that every town player is.
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Getting towards the end of D1. Initial reactions:
Faust is coming off townier
e is coming off townier
SP is coming off scummier
Teproc is coming of nullier
SS is coming off scummier
Hydrad is coming off scummier
Limetime was so sparingly involved in D1 that it's pretty hard to tell. What he did do doesn't indicate any towniness.. I find his absence during all the 'big fights' pretty scummy.
Preliminary lynch preference is out of {Limetime/Gkrieg, SS, SP}
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Ah, there is also an Egor. Also posts very little, as is par. He actually seems town to me, though.
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Toss a Hydrad in there, so
{Limtetime/Gkrieg, SS, SP, Hydrad}
no ordering there.
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Wait, I'm not voting Joseph ?
vote: Joseph
There you go. The softclaiming only solidified it for me. Don't care about the wagon itself, that's putting way too much trust in day 1 reads if you don't want to lynch a wagon just because your town reads (which are just that, because gkrieg is the only IC here) aren't on it.
Alright, the scummy part of this is the "Wait, I'm not voting Joseph?" part. It feels faked. That being said, this post is not as scummy as my initial reaction to it.
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I mean, as I initially thought it was when it happened.
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Why was there no push to lynch from the doctors Day 2? Because of the chances of scum picking up on Joseph's softclaim?
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Why was there no push to lynch from the doctors Day 2? Because of the chances of scum picking up on Joseph's softclaim?
There was some. But there's no way scum didn't realise Joseph was a doctor. It only takes one of them, and scum pays more attention to that stuff.
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Once again, way, way overestimating how scared scum must be of those PRs/how important it is for them to kill the IC.
You are in fact completely contradictory : implying I *knew* Joseph was a Doctor because I'm scum... in which case I really don't care about killing a Doctor because it means that scum is in the Doctor QT and thus doesn't care about that power at all.
PPE : didn't we do this already on day 1? It came in somewhere under 50% I think ? Well, the "scum being in 3 QTs and having full info" part at least.
I think scum would actually place more emphasis on the importance of removing an IC. Scum Teproc in particular.. remember that one game that we let ICs live?
Going townier on Teproc from Day 2.
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Why was there no push to lynch from the doctors Day 2? Because of the chances of scum picking up on Joseph's softclaim?
There was some. But there's no way scum didn't realise Joseph was a doctor. It only takes one of them, and scum pays more attention to that stuff.
Well, I think I was the only one voting for Limetime D2.
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And again S_P is producing massive content that doesn't actually commit him to anything real or amounts to any relevant interaction with anyone. Because that's the nice thing with probability, if you start with a false premise (that gkrieg being dead means there's scum in the doctor QT), you can make it say whatever you want. Why didn't we lynch him again ?
Agreed
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I mean, maybe not necessary but I don't think it hurts us that much. I don't think the last doctor should necessarily claim though
Pretty sure people can figure it out. I'm unclear on the general upside of claiming vs not claiming anything at this point.
PPE : Well.
Also... just talking about this is awkward which is why I'd kinda like a claim of neighborhoods, but : if the Motion Detector got a positive result, they should obviously claim it. If not... well I kinda think they should still, but then I'm in favor of claiming in general at this point.
Hey, motion detector, that's a thing.
Is there any harm to claiming actions? Roleblocking and Motion Detecting targets give pseudo clearance to some people. Is this LyLo?
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I'm not saying we should lynch him... but he's really mostly null to me. Has he ever been scum?
PPE: 1
He (SP) was Werewolf scum with me back in Greater Idea.
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Is there any harm to claiming actions? Roleblocking and Motion Detecting targets give pseudo clearance to some people. Is this LyLo?
Claiming action means claiming neighborhoods (to ane extent), so yes there is harm.
Roleblocking and Motion Detecting only give any sort of clearing if scum is not part of that neighborhood.
It's not LyLo.
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Is there any harm to claiming actions? Roleblocking and Motion Detecting targets give pseudo clearance to some people. Is this LyLo?
Claiming action means claiming neighborhoods (to ane extent), so yes there is harm.
Roleblocking and Motion Detecting only give any sort of clearing if scum is not part of that neighborhood.
It's not LyLo.
Aren't we almost guaranteed at this point for scum to know neighborhoods? Doctor neighborhood is already outed, and many town are dead.
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Oh, right, that latter point is true.
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Is there any harm to claiming actions? Roleblocking and Motion Detecting targets give pseudo clearance to some people. Is this LyLo?
Claiming action means claiming neighborhoods (to ane extent), so yes there is harm.
Roleblocking and Motion Detecting only give any sort of clearing if scum is not part of that neighborhood.
It's not LyLo.
scum can also just avoid the PGO neighborhood if we all claim. But I guess the other PRs would also avoid that neighborhood at that point? Actually PGO isn't very good for town is it.
I like WW's analysis of things. I still don't think I should be counted as scummy for being in the doctor neighborhood. I think there are a few other explanations for scum killing yuma that are just as likely.
I think ss and s_p come off the scummiest from WW's reread, but I will go and reread D2 now.
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I think there are a few other explanations for scum killing yuma that are just as likely.
Would love to hear them.
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Hmm I guess. It makes lots of sense of silver is town, cleaning him while implicating he is town himself. Though... there is daychat. If you wanted to play the "e is IC" card, why not make another player point that out for additional legitimacy?
Because there is no legitimacy to be found there. He forget how the PGO worked. There is no ICness or townslip to be had there. But if you say, ss and I (along with the real ICs and people that had legit slips) are IC often enough people are going to start to absorb that. I know I did to an extent. It was only when I went back and looked for what the slip actually was... cause I coudln't remember... did I realize it was a bunch of crap.
While this point is good, scum doesn't usually insist they're ICs for things that are not very ICish. e's way of going about this is generally consistent with town e from recent games, though of course it could be replicated.
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Hydrad moving up the lynch preference.
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Especially in light of the day chat thing. His posts feel much like someone said "you should start posting something" in scum QT.
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E.g.,
oh dang more stuff.
hmm those wagon analysis's are interesting. I didn't really think it like that very hard.
so if the Joseph wagon is an alternate to Teproc then it would be me/S_P/e from that 1.6 vote count and pushed it along.
hmm I don't see any of these people really scummy though. I guess it could of been one of the first Joseph people before teproc really gained any traction but then thats not as much pushing Joseph because they wanted to save Teproc.
Hmm well I don't see Teproc as scummy from the vote count part of it at least.
As for RR that one makes more sense to me for the vote switch. So RR jumps up to a would lynch target now.
Speaking of which. Theres been so much talking i have no idea where the votes are now.
Also, hedge-o-mania, though that's basically a Hydrad trait. RR is coming up as the lynch at this point, though.
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At that point, Hydrad was on Limetime and RR was a competing wagon. Later
Hmm I'm warming up to an rr lynch now.
Though doesn't actually vote around this point. Not sure right now where he ends up.
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I know you're automatically disocunting anything I say this game, but daychat is actually a big reason why Limetime is scummy to me, so I'm not sure what you're getting at and I don't see the point in being coy.
Well uh I'm afraid you just have to think about it some more. I can't go into any more detail.
Can Faust explain what this was about now?
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I know you're automatically disocunting anything I say this game, but daychat is actually a big reason why Limetime is scummy to me, so I'm not sure what you're getting at and I don't see the point in being coy.
Well uh I'm afraid you just have to think about it some more. I can't go into any more detail.
Can Faust explain what this was about now?
Sorry, not yet.
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So from rereading the beginning of D2, I think it is very possible that Teproc and faust are scum partners. They have this big argument about how Teproc's hammer is scummy. I think they were also some of the few people who noticed Joseph's soft claim of doctor.
scum!Teproc would want to hammer so they could kill the wonderful IC we had, but would know he would get flak for it D2. faust is trying to be one of the first people on that wagon, to get towncred.
Faust's tone in that fight sounds like he knows Teproc is scum, which he would if they were partners.
Also feeling very scummy on Hydrad.
faust also gets the probability of scum being in the doc neighborhood wrong I think. It can't really be 50%, because that would mean that each neighborhood has a 50% chance of scum being in it, which doesn't seem right to me.
s_p also advocates for a lynch from the doc neighborhood.
Teproc is against lynching from the doc neighborhood.
Hydrad also for lynching from the doctors
faust switches his vote to RR for a policy lynch for being annoying.
After a while goes back to voting for Teproc
D2 finishes with RR getting lynched
At the start of D3, up until now, they both seem very buddy, buddy, like nothing happened yesterday. Everyone seems to have forgotten about Teproc.
They then have a little tussle a couple of pages ago.
vote: faust
From this reread, I think faust and Teproc are scum. I get townie reads from WW, EgorK, Hydrad. Pretty null on others.
Also from my reread, I didn't know faust helped design this game.
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vote: gkrieg
L-1 I think.
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I also think.
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So here is where Hydrad finally votes RR, for the hammer:
I'm tired. good night
Vote: RR
Before that he stayed on Limetime, even being the only one from the Limetime wagon to revote Gkrieg after replacement (which mod-dissolved the wagon).
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This is still a good point by Faust:
Joseph attracts more attention and leaves us with this final vote count:
Roadrunner7671 (2): yuma, Limetime
Teproc (2): Witherweaver, Joseph2302
Joseph2303 (7): faust, EgorK, silverspawn, 2.71828, scott_piglrim, Hydrad, Teproc
faust (1): Roadrunner7671
Not Voting (1): gkrieg13
Man... do you think all scum were on-wagon for Joseph? I know I don't, not when the alternative lynch was RR (or maybe Teproc I guess? Still...) And guess who wasn't on-wagon and isn't conf!town? That's right...
PPE: 9
Either all three scum were on Joseph Day 1 or Limetime/Gkrieg is scum.
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OH I was just about to vote gkrieg and then someone said it was l-1 now what do I do :(
When did you get here?
Just when I posted that pretty much.
Seems like gkrieg is the lynch today. Vote: ww then
I don't get this
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Faust is much scummier today.
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And again S_P is producing massive content that doesn't actually commit him to anything real or amounts to any relevant interaction with anyone. Because that's the nice thing with probability, if you start with a false premise (that gkrieg being dead means there's scum in the doctor QT), you can make it say whatever you want. Why didn't we lynch him again ?
Agreed
Okay now I'm super pissed. I asked for a response to this TWICE yesterday and never got one. I did NOT start with that premise, I don't understand how you could have possibly thought that if you actually read my post. What you are calling a false premise is exactly what I was trying to calculate the probability of.
And doing probability is not scummy. It's the best way to find scum. Sometimes, anyway. I don't think it was yesterday, because the numbers didn't come out to make a noticeable difference between one of the docs being scum, and a random person being scum. Coming to that conclusion is just being honest about what the numbers came out to, not being hedgy. If I did all those calculations, should I have not posted them because they were inconclusive? No that's silly, I still want to save other people the trouble. It's absurd that anyone is going after me because of that posted, and it's even more absurd that they are doing it in a way that has absolutely nothing to do with what I actually posted, and it's completely ridiculous that now someone else is agreeing with it and going after ME because of it, when Teproc is the one misrepresenting everything I said and refusing to respond to me when I explain to him why his post is nonsense.
I was going to do the same calcs today (although not knowing which neighborhood yuma was in means we can't get exact results), but it looks like I don't have to, because the only way I see someone going after ME for that post and not Teproc is if they are scum. Most likely scum partners.
vote: Witherweaver
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K.
Your modus operandi this game has been big posts with noncommittal stances.
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Okay sorry, I guess you were just agreeing with that first sentence and not really the context that the rest of that post came from.
I don't agree that non-commitment is scummy. It can be for some people. There's an advantage for scum not to commit, since it lets them jump on board town wagons more easily. I get that. It's just that when I post, I'm mostly just thinking out loud, and the reality is I can never be sure of anything. I think it's generally a little dishonest for town to post really confident reads on people. Either they're lying to themselves by convincing themselves something is more likely to be true than it really is, or they're lying to everyone else by misrepresenting their confidence in something. And that's not necessarily bad, it's just not how I post.
I mean really just in general, I always try to question everything. If I think something is true, I'm always trying to find all the ways I might be wrong about it. What you read as noncommittal I think is just me arguing with myself because I know I can't justify complete confidence in something, especially in a game like mafia where you're likely to have all sorts of biases about the way you read people.
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I was going to do the same calcs today (although not knowing which neighborhood yuma was in means we can't get exact results), but it looks like I don't have to, because the only way I see someone going after ME for that post and not Teproc is if they are scum. Most likely scum partners.
Man, this game is easier than I thought.
This is pretty townie though.
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faust also gets the probability of scum being in the doc neighborhood wrong I think. It can't really be 50%, because that would mean that each neighborhood has a 50% chance of scum being in it, which doesn't seem right to me.
Well... it is right.
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OH I was just about to vote gkrieg and then someone said it was l-1 now what do I do :(
When did you get here?
Just when I posted that pretty much.
Seems like gkrieg is the lynch today. Vote: ww then
I don't get this
At the time I thought gkrieg was already L1 and stuff. So I was curious if others would jump ship or try to push you wagon if I made one. But then I saw the gkrieg only had 2 votes so I went him instead
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vote: faust
Way to jump the alternate wagon. Though by what you write, if you were town, you would 100% vote Teproc.
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OH I was just about to vote gkrieg and then someone said it was l-1 now what do I do :(
When did you get here?
Just when I posted that pretty much.
Seems like gkrieg is the lynch today. Vote: ww then
I don't get this
At the time I thought gkrieg was already L1 and stuff. So I was curious if others would jump ship or try to push you wagon if I made one. But then I saw the gkrieg only had 2 votes so I went him instead
Curious... why? What did you expect to happen?
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OH I was just about to vote gkrieg and then someone said it was l-1 now what do I do :(
When did you get here?
Just when I posted that pretty much.
Seems like gkrieg is the lynch today. Vote: ww then
I don't get this
At the time I thought gkrieg was already L1 and stuff. So I was curious if others would jump ship or try to push you wagon if I made one. But then I saw the gkrieg only had 2 votes so I went him instead
Curious... why? What did you expect to happen?
Ok so basically I don't like it when there is only one lunch possibility as I think it goes us like 0 info. As scum can go along with it if it's in town and get no blame really. So I like having a second wagon to make people actually choose which one they want to go into and we can get more info. Like say gkrieg is town and you scum or vice versa. If the wagon is only on gkrieg scum either goes oh cool free town lunch. Or they go well guess I'll bus my teammate. But if I make a second wagon on you then they have to choose between oh maybe I can save gkrieg by killing ww or. Oh let's try to get some cred by not being in gkriegs wagon.
So really it gives us more things to analyze I think and I think that helps us out. Does that answer the question?
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Vote Count 3.2
gkrieg13 (4): faust, EgorK, Hydrad, Teproc
faust (2):silverspawn, gkrieg13
Witherweaver (1): scott_pilgrim
Not Voting (2): 2.71828, Witherweaver
With 9 alive it takes 5 to lynch. Day Three begins now and ends at 7 am forum time Saturday, April 9th.
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I'm okay with Gkrieg.
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Eh
Vote: Gkrieg
I'm going Gkrieg/Faust/Hydrad team.
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Maybe Silver instead. But it's so cooler if you sound certain and turn out to be right.
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I think this is a mistake.
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but hey I've been wrong before this game; let's hope I'm wrong again.
I think it's faust, and maybe... Hydrad? maybe WW.
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Well I think I'm happy with the lynch, though I would have liked some more time to think about it.
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I'll be happy about the lynch if gkrieg flips scum.
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OH I was just about to vote gkrieg and then someone said it was l-1 now what do I do :(
When did you get here?
Just when I posted that pretty much.
Seems like gkrieg is the lynch today. Vote: ww then
I don't get this
At the time I thought gkrieg was already L1 and stuff. So I was curious if others would jump ship or try to push you wagon if I made one. But then I saw the gkrieg only had 2 votes so I went him instead
Curious... why? What did you expect to happen?
Ok so basically I don't like it when there is only one lunch possibility as I think it goes us like 0 info. As scum can go along with it if it's in town and get no blame really. So I like having a second wagon to make people actually choose which one they want to go into and we can get more info. Like say gkrieg is town and you scum or vice versa. If the wagon is only on gkrieg scum either goes oh cool free town lunch. Or they go well guess I'll bus my teammate. But if I make a second wagon on you then they have to choose between oh maybe I can save gkrieg by killing ww or. Oh let's try to get some cred by not being in gkriegs wagon.
So really it gives us more things to analyze I think and I think that helps us out. Does that answer the question?
Don't see scum!Hydrad ever posting something like this.
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Well, good lynch. I'm not scum though.
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Well, good lynch. I'm not scum though.
This seems like a strange thing to say
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Thread locked, flip when I get home from work.
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gkrieg13 has been lynched! He was a Mafia Goon!
Final Vote Count
gkrieg13 (5): faust, EgorK, Hydrad, Teproc, Witherweaver
faust (2):silverspawn, gkrieg13
Witherweaver (1): scott_pilgrim
Not Voting (1): 2.71828
With 9 alive it took 5 to lynch. Night Three begins now and ends at 7 pm forum time Sunday April 3rd.
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2.71828 has been killed in the night! He was a Vanilla Townie!
Vote Count 4.0
Not Voting (7): faust, silverspawn, Hydrad, EgorK, Teproc, Witherweaver, scott_pilgrim
With 7 alive it takes 4 to lynch. Day Four begins now and ends at 7 pm forum time Wednesday, April 13th.
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:-[
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I'm surprised I'm not dead.
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Actually, I guess it doesn't matter; I can doctor someone tonight but they can just kill me.
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Well, SS and SP look worse. I'm still suspicious of Faust.. I'm back and forth there. Hydrad, well.. he was pretty consistently on Gkrieg. But I feel like when scum made the choice to kill Yuma they already were set on losing Gkrieg the next day.
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Well, SS and SP look worse. I'm still suspicious of Faust.. I'm back and forth there. Hydrad, well.. he was pretty consistently on Gkrieg. But I feel like when scum made the choice to kill Yuma they already were set on losing Gkrieg the next day.
These two statements don't seem to fit together.
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Looking at the early Limetime wagon, Egor and silver are tentatively towny (both I don't quite see as bussing their newbie partner D1).
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Which means PoE leads me to a Teproc/Hydrad scum team. Gotta reread the thread to see if that makes sense.
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Let's look at Hydrad/Teproc.
Hydrad thinks scott is town. That is like his sole read D1. He also puts Joseph to L-1. No mention of Teproc anywhere. Or Limetime for that matter.
Teproc starts out voting for Limetime. Also states right away that Hydrad is town. Then some stuff that has already been talked about. He spends a lot of time talking about things other than Hydrad, and then he says his only reads are scott (scum) and Hydrad (town). I don't think anything justifies having such a standout read on Hydrad at that point. It feels artificial. Then the hammer.
D2 has some exchange between Teproc and Hydrad. Well Teproc makes a snarky comment because Hydrad is inactive. That doesn't say anything. Then Hydrad votes for Limetime. Interesting. Apparently because "going after the Docs" is good. Could arguably be bussing, but still on the townier side. He also thinks RR is scummier than Teproc. At one point he specifically thinks "this is town!Teproc". He also hedges when silver suspects me. And finally he hammers RR. Tries to like talk himself into it, even though he clearly stated a town read on Teproc. It doesn't feel genuine.
Teproc's D2 starts with a lot of defending naturally. This post is relevant:
RR and S_P are by far my preferred lynches here... then faust and maybe Limetime. Don't feel strongly one way or the other about WW or EgorK.
And, only a little later, this:
Gotta stop trying to wagon town, yuma. It's against your wincon !
On a similar note, as no one else seems to be interested in lynching obvscum S_P, let's go with vote: Limetime
PPE : I never voted RR ? Huh. I might. I don't know. It feels like flipping a coin.
I also thought the wagons were pretty similar (including me being on both), which makes me a little doubtful the Joseph wagon was scum deflecting away from RR.
That just doesn't fit. It seems like trying to throw Limetime under the bus (note that Hydrad is voting Limetime too at that point, and well there's daychat). I mean in a Hydrad/Limetime/Teproc team, it feels like the top priority would be keeping Teproc alive. From now on Teproc is actually going after Limetime hard. I just don't see a reason for it.
D3 is short and Hydrad only does weird Hydrad things. Teproc pushes gkrieg (formerly known as Limetime) hard. This is scummy in the light of gkrieg's flip:
It feels to me as if you're just trying to get people lynched rather than trying to find scum
It feels to me as if Limetime/gkrieg is your scum partner.
Also some more defending Hydrad from Teproc. Which makes sense; I think scum cannot win this if they're down to 1 scum early because of the PRs.
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Yeah, I talked myself into voting for Teproc. Because I needed more talking into for that.
Vote: Teproc
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Well, I'm not surprised you think I have no reason for thinking Hydrad is town or having been on the Limetime wagon, since it seems you haven't been interested in reading much of my reasoning for anything all game, but still.
Hydrad is town because all his posts are pro-town. By which I mean to say : every post he makes, you get the feeling that he is trying to help, that he is trying to be constructive. So far, i have never seen scum!Hydrad convincingly fake that, therefore Hydrad is town.
I thought Limetime was scum because day 2 felt like town auto-destructing itself while scum was looking on and laughing about it in daychat. Of the 3 obvious people that would lead me to (beside S_P), you had Hydrad who was townie for reasons stated above, EgorK and Limetime. I remembered some scummy stuff Limetime I did, didn't remember much about EgorK, so I went after Limetime.
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Looking at the early Limetime wagon, Egor and silver are tentatively towny (both I don't quite see as bussing their newbie partner D1).
What ? That was a small wagon, soon deflected by the realization that Limetime was a newbie IIRC. Also, what makes you think silver in particular would not bus on day 1 ? Or EgorK, for that matter. Bussing on a small wagon is something that 95% of scum players do, it's not like they put Limetime at L-1.
silver especially was then 100% deflecting all throughout day 3, first arguing that the whole "yuma dying means scum among the doctors" reasoning was wrong-headed, then... I can't remember if he deflected from Limetime specifically, but he was certainly against his lynch (this time I really will reread, a scum flip does demand that). The only question here is : would silver be that obvious, given that if he was scum he knew they did kill uma because they knew he wouldn't be protected ? Not sure yet, but silver is the first place I'm looking a priori.
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Looking at the early Limetime wagon, Egor and silver are tentatively towny (both I don't quite see as bussing their newbie partner D1).
What ? That was a small wagon, soon deflected by the realization that Limetime was a newbie IIRC. Also, what makes you think silver in particular would not bus on day 1 ? Or EgorK, for that matter. Bussing on a small wagon is something that 95% of scum players do, it's not like they put Limetime at L-1.
I said bussing a newbie. And that's not something you do because you don't know how well they would handle the pressure. I wouldn't do it without being okay with lynching my partner D1, and I don't think silver or Egor would want to lynch their partner D1.
silver especially was then 100% deflecting all throughout day 3, first arguing that the whole "yuma dying means scum among the doctors" reasoning was wrong-headed, then... I can't remember if he deflected from Limetime specifically, but he was certainly against his lynch (this time I really will reread, a scum flip does demand that). The only question here is : would silver be that obvious, given that if he was scum he knew they did kill uma because they knew he wouldn't be protected ? Not sure yet, but silver is the first place I'm looking a priori.
Man, it was obvious that gkrieg was going down... it doesn't really make sense for scum to argue against that except for WIFOM purposes.
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Nothing is obvious until it happens. I think silver persisted long after it was possible for gkrieg not to be lnched precisely for that argument to happen, but he resisted the idea that a doctor should be lynched right away, strongly too.
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Well, SS and SP look worse. I'm still suspicious of Faust.. I'm back and forth there. Hydrad, well.. he was pretty consistently on Gkrieg. But I feel like when scum made the choice to kill Yuma they already were set on losing Gkrieg the next day.
These two statements don't seem to fit together.
They're separate ideas.
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urg... well, I don't really know if I can contradict Teproc, I'm not sure how much I'd buss as scum. Needless to say my reads are thoroughly off this game. I was certainly deflecting heavily from the wagon.
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I said bussing a newbie. And that's not something you do because you don't know how well they would handle the pressure. I wouldn't do it without being okay with lynching my partner D1, and I don't think silver or Egor would want to lynch their partner D1.
While thanks for town read I think with day chat bussing is much easier to coordinate, including on newbie
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Yeah I think at least on the surface D3 looks really bad for silverspawn...on the one hand, I sort of get the argument that why would he do that when it was clear gkrieg was going down anyway, but really I think he was pretty committed from the beginning to defending the docs, and then he just wants to look consistent (changing your mind at the end of the day looks like a desperation hammer). Plus, I feel like silverspawn is the sort of player who actually really takes hard evidence into account, and doesn't discard it in favor of reads, which is, well...why I wish I had had more time yesterday to do probabilities. But I still don't really get him just ignoring the arguments that were being made against the docs there. I guess I can sympathize with the concern that the wagon was going fast with no real opposition, although if silver is scum, then he was that opposition, so that would make sense too.
So I guess that means I agree with Teproc on something...I'm not sure how I feel about that. But I think silverspawn's D3 looks so much like what I would expect from scum. I do want to reread him later though because I honestly don't remember much else from him this game, and now we can look for other partner interactions. But I hate rereading...
vote: silverspawn
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Yeah I think at least on the surface D3 looks really bad for silverspawn...on the one hand, I sort of get the argument that why would he do that when it was clear gkrieg was going down anyway, but really I think he was pretty committed from the beginning to defending the docs, and then he just wants to look consistent (changing your mind at the end of the day looks like a desperation hammer). Plus, I feel like silverspawn is the sort of player who actually really takes hard evidence into account, and doesn't discard it in favor of reads, which is, well...why I wish I had had more time yesterday to do probabilities. But I still don't really get him just ignoring the arguments that were being made against the docs there. I guess I can sympathize with the concern that the wagon was going fast with no real opposition, although if silver is scum, then he was that opposition, so that would make sense too.
So I guess that means I agree with Teproc on something...I'm not sure how I feel about that. But I think silverspawn's D3 looks so much like what I would expect from scum. I do want to reread him later though because I honestly don't remember much else from him this game, and now we can look for other partner interactions. But I hate rereading...
vote: silverspawn
yeah, I agree... with everything except the conclusion.
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If it reasuures you S_P, I'm just saing silver is the first place we should look, not that I think he's scum. I'll start thinking things once I've reread, having a scum flip makes all your preceding reads much less relevant.
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having a scum flip makes all your preceding reads much less relevant.
Yes, I agree with this, which is why I'm a lot more suspicious of silverspawn now than of you.
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Let's look at Hydrad/Teproc.
Hydrad thinks scott is town. That is like his sole read D1. He also puts Joseph to L-1. No mention of Teproc anywhere. Or Limetime for that matter.
Teproc starts out voting for Limetime. Also states right away that Hydrad is town. Then some stuff that has already been talked about. He spends a lot of time talking about things other than Hydrad, and then he says his only reads are scott (scum) and Hydrad (town). I don't think anything justifies having such a standout read on Hydrad at that point. It feels artificial. Then the hammer.
D2 has some exchange between Teproc and Hydrad. Well Teproc makes a snarky comment because Hydrad is inactive. That doesn't say anything. Then Hydrad votes for Limetime. Interesting. Apparently because "going after the Docs" is good. Could arguably be bussing, but still on the townier side. He also thinks RR is scummier than Teproc. At one point he specifically thinks "this is town!Teproc". He also hedges when silver suspects me. And finally he hammers RR. Tries to like talk himself into it, even though he clearly stated a town read on Teproc. It doesn't feel genuine.
Teproc's D2 starts with a lot of defending naturally. This post is relevant:
RR and S_P are by far my preferred lynches here... then faust and maybe Limetime. Don't feel strongly one way or the other about WW or EgorK.
And, only a little later, this:
Gotta stop trying to wagon town, yuma. It's against your wincon !
On a similar note, as no one else seems to be interested in lynching obvscum S_P, let's go with vote: Limetime
PPE : I never voted RR ? Huh. I might. I don't know. It feels like flipping a coin.
I also thought the wagons were pretty similar (including me being on both), which makes me a little doubtful the Joseph wagon was scum deflecting away from RR.
That just doesn't fit. It seems like trying to throw Limetime under the bus (note that Hydrad is voting Limetime too at that point, and well there's daychat). I mean in a Hydrad/Limetime/Teproc team, it feels like the top priority would be keeping Teproc alive. From now on Teproc is actually going after Limetime hard. I just don't see a reason for it.
D3 is short and Hydrad only does weird Hydrad things. Teproc pushes gkrieg (formerly known as Limetime) hard. This is scummy in the light of gkrieg's flip:
It feels to me as if you're just trying to get people lynched rather than trying to find scum
It feels to me as if Limetime/gkrieg is your scum partner.
Also some more defending Hydrad from Teproc. Which makes sense; I think scum cannot win this if they're down to 1 scum early because of the PRs.
while I appreciate this reread I'm guessing its slightly biased on looking for scummy interactions already? But I'm guessing thats hard to not do as if you've already come to the idea of it being me/teproc then of course you are probably going to look for things to support that.
It actually looks good though. if I wasn't one of the people and knew that it was wrong I might go along with it.
Anyways POE for me is making me thing SS/faust now.
S_P still seems towny. Teproc still seems towny. egork is null and ww... well if ww is alive for a while then maybe but right now I don't think its him.
lets go with Vote: faust
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S_P still seems towny. Teproc still seems towny. egork is null and ww... well if ww is alive for a while then maybe but right now I don't think its him.
lets go with Vote: faust
Err... do you think I'm scummy? If yes, why? If no, why are you voting me over Egor (who is null according to you)?
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Rereading Limetime.
Starts out voting RR, only discusses him really : unvotes then revotes him... barely even reacts to the wagon on him, which was e, RR, silver, EgorK. Two confirmed town, Limetime's apparent relative lack of concern about it makes me slightly more suspicious of the other two.
First mention of a non-RR player :
Egork continues to have excuses to not post.
He asks whether I have had experience with mafia. I try to answer with this
You guys have a lot more experience then me.
He continues to not acknowledge my answer...
If that is too ambiguous I will say that this is one of my first mafia games and that I have had no experience outside this forum.
And that's it for day 1. Mostly makes me suspicious of EgorK, the above post reads like a forced attempt to create interactions between them after EgorK told Limetime in daychat that he needed to talk about his partners too.
Vote: teproc for hammering
First post of day 2, putting me to L-1. I'll let you draw your own conclusions regarding my alignment, but more importantly (to me), I think it indicated that scum discussed me as a potential lynch on day 2, and decided to push in that direction right away. I don't think Limetime would ahve necessarily have the confidence of putting me at L-1 like that if it hadn't been discussed that I was relatively likely to be lynched, and I fully expect one of the first votes on me to be scum.
My wagon when Limetime voted was :
faust, Witherweaver, scott_pilgrim, Roadrunner
Right, nothing new here, suspects are still the same as they've been since day 2, but the knowledge of Limetime's alignment might make it more obvious for you guys. I would be very surprised if Limetime was the first scum to vote on that wagon : again, newbie scum putting a wagon at L-1 right away without any scum pushing it beforehand seems pretty ballsy to me.
He then gets on RR, following silver and faust's lead.
gkrieg then replaces in. Deadline is close so he looks at the current lynch candidates (RR, Hydrad and myself).
He reads RR first and votes immediately, then reads me and says he'd be fine lynching me too, but doesn't want to lynch Hydrad. Is fine with an e lynch.
Then day 3 doesn't tell us much because scum must have realized very quickly gkrieg was a goner. The weird thing is that there wasn't more of a WW push. gkrieg even says he doesn't have a scum read on him, which would've been the easy out. He ends up going for faust. Could mean
a) WW is scum
b) Scum didn't realize the yuma kill would implicate doctors (this would mean faust is much less likely to be scum, among others)
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Then day 3 doesn't tell us much because scum must have realized very quickly gkrieg was a goner.
Interesting. And here I was, thinking
Nothing is obvious until it happens.
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And that's it for day 1. Mostly makes me suspicious of EgorK, the above post reads like a forced attempt to create interactions between them after EgorK told Limetime in daychat that he needed to talk about his partners too.
I strongly doubt that Egor of all people would say that, or much of anything really, in daychat. Mainly because Egor cannot easily access QT, see here (http://quicktopic.com/52/H/69T5d5WVgLuiM).
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So I'm now coming to faust and WW as the main suspects here. I'll still include silver in there, let's look at those guys interactions with Limetime/gkrieg.
oh lulz scum has daychat.
well in that case vote: Limetime
Can you explain how these two things are related?
oh lulz scum has daychat.
well in that case vote: Limetime
Can you explain how these two things are related?
that's easy; WW isn't scum, so it's someone else. Limetime is the first choice that comes to mind.
So I read more in your words then there are (like he plays first time here, but has no questions, can he ask them in scum QT?)
Actually vote: limetime. Limetime, can you answer, do you have any experience playing forum mafia?
If Limetime started asking question in the mafia QT, his partners would just tell him to post them in the main thread. I don't really see any reason to believe this is scum!Limetime.
Well, I like where this is going already ! Yes, I won't hide that I will be extremely satisfied if faust is scum and it undoubtedly clouds my judgment. Still, that's incriminating.
Egork continues to have excuses to not post.
You shouldn't make implicit accusations like this. If someone says they're busy, then they're busy. We are counting on people t not be jerks that make up business trips in order to lurk.
He asks whether I have had experience with mafia. I try to answer with this
You guys have a lot more experience then me.
He continues to not acknowledge my answer...
If that is too ambiguous I will say that this is one of my first mafia games and that I have had no experience outside this forum.
I have to say that I did not realize that the quoted post was supposed to be a response to Egor. Stating it explicitly like this is probably better.
Some good old fashioned coaching. Arguably scum is less likely to do this in the main thread given daychat, but you still need to interact with your partners, and I also think faust would be aware that doing it in the main thread might bring him towncred for that precise reason. Yeah ok, I'm just seeing everything with scum-colored glasses, but really I don't think this is a strong indicator either way.
Joseph2302 - I remember very little about the guy. Which, given the amount of townreads I have, makes him very lynchable.
Limetime - see above.
He also votes Joseph in that post, with Limetime as the other player in the "want to lynch" category. I wonder what the tiebreaker was between those two... really though, the reasonable tiebreaker would be that Limetime was a newbie, something that has been brought up already at this point I believe.
Sidenote : rereading the faust v me debate, still find him uncharacteristically unreasonable, FWIW.
Anyway. Teproc is scummy, but who else? Let's take a look at the Joseph wagon. First, I vote for him... others will be the jugde of that. Then:
[...]
So on wagon, my reads are like
Teproc >> e > scott > Hydrad > Egor > silver
The award for scummiest off-wagoner goes to RR by a wide margin.
When looking for an alternative to me, faust looks at the Joseph wagon (Limetime was off), though still mentions one off-wagoner in RR. Not mentioning Limetime doesn't look that bad because he was very inactive, but those reads are at the very least wrong (S_P is the only realistic scum to me in the first four here, and I don't even find him that likely to be scum anymore).
On a similar note, as no one else seems to be interested in lynching obvscum S_P, let's go with vote: Limetime
And well this is such a lazy vote that it makes me want to lynch Teproc again.
Nice chainsaw you got there, faust (chainsaw defense is when you vote for the guy voting for your partner to discredit his vote). It's not quite that, but calling Limetime votes lazy is certainly what I'd expect his partners to do.
Vote: Limetime
Really?
It's starting to look like scum wanted to make it so obvious that Limetime was his partner just so we'd doubt on the basis of "too obvious to be real".
I thought we started to run out of time... turns out that we still have almost a week time. These seems like pretty long deadlines. As I see it, there are 4 main lynch candidates right now.
Roadrunner - well I like this one. I think he's likely scum, and I think his lynch will give us a good chunk of information as we will have two dead players that everyone has taken a stance on.
Teproc - he doesn't seem like usual Teproc. His hammer was scummy. He is a decent lynch, with the caveat that I suck at reading Teproc, and he is one of our more active players.
e - really I feel like this case mostly boils down to lurking. Which is fine, I agree with yuma's explanation that lurking can be more scummy here, but if that's all there is to it, then I'd rather lynch my stronger scumreads. Would love some more participation though.
Limetime - and then we have this. Pushed by the other scummy people, this seems like your definition of a deflecting wagon. He doesn't fight back, and there's a reason to assume that people will feel good about his lynch. I reread him and didn't find anything scummy.
Yep.
I'll stop here actually, because it's very long and I'm just not going to learn anything new here. Lynchgin anyone else than faust would be a huge mistake. I will take a look at WW and silver, but come on, Occam's Razor says faust is scum.
vote: faust
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Also Egor in general doesn't strike me as the guy to dish out newbie advice.
PPE: 1
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Then day 3 doesn't tell us much because scum must have realized very quickly gkrieg was a goner.
Interesting. And here I was, thinking
Nothing is obvious until it happens.
Well, what I mean is that everything in day 3 has to be taken with a grain of salt. That doesn't mean scum knew gkrieg would die necessarily, but they knew he would be under tremendous pressure. If silver is scum, he did what he did on the off-chance it could save gkrieg, but also hoping it would be read as "too obvious". What I mean by saying it's not obvious until it happens is more that it's not inevitable before it happens, so there was upside for scum!silver to move attention away frm the doctors.
As you see, I've gone back to voting for scum though, so... ;)
PPE : Well, could've been the third scum. But I think EgorK would absolutely give advice to a newbie, especially if the third scum is absent (that would mean not you, but I think silver was sometimes absent in day 1 for example). Didn't know about the QT thing.
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Oh no, you uncovered my ingenius game plan: Defend my partner all the way through, then get him lynched to make me look really bad!
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I get that, I do, but that's just WIFOM. I also think you play scum as short-term oriented because you assume if you live too long you'll get lynched just for being alive.
You're voting for me, so what was my plan ? Hammer someone in a way that's apparently obviously scummy and then get lynched after my newbie partner puts me at L-1 five minutes into day 2 ?
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I get that, I do, but that's just WIFOM. I also think you play scum as short-term oriented because you assume if you live too long you'll get lynched just for being alive.
I don't think I ever play short-term oriented. I try to deal with the fact that I'm going to be suspected in the long run one way or the other, either by having my partners lynch me or by being just scummy enough or by making 1-1 trades or some such. I know I may get lynched, but I try to at least make that lynch beneficial for my partners.
You're voting for me, so what was my plan ? Hammer someone in a way that's apparently obviously scummy and then get lynched after my newbie partner puts me at L-1 five minutes into day 2 ?
Well, I believe for better or for worse that you did not realize how scummy that hammer was. Having your partner put you to L-1 is a neat thing to do because you wouldn't get lynched there anyway.
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Also, you didn't get Limetime lynched. My whole point is that you did everything in your power to prevent that. I guess I stopped before day 3, when you did lead his wagon, that's true. Ok, you've convinced me that's something worth looking at.
That is... uh. Doctors, just what exactly did you do?
Vote: gkrieg to begin with. Definitely lynching within the Doctor neighborhood is in order.
Right, those are the first two posts of anyone in day 3, that's pretty decisive. This does raise the question of "why would a faust-led scumteam kill yuma".... I have my theory on that, but it's not worth sharing I don't think. Speaking of which, is your secret thing ready to be shared yet ?
Howere we have established that you think killing ICs is worth... a lot. yuma wasn't an IC, but he wasn't getting lynched any time soon, you would have to kill him at some point. The only way to do that without implicating doctors is to lynch a doctor, which isn't that easy to do when at least one of them is your partner anyway. So you kill yuma, accepting that gkrieg is likely to get lynched because of it, forcing the issue by immediately making him the first wagon of the day, which as you've just astutely pointed out, is rarely the final wagon of the day. By doing so, you are able to make this very argument : you might have been the most obvious scum partner ever in days 1 and 2, but then you were the main proponent of the lynch, that's gotta count for something right ?
Except... I know that those two positions (super obvious scum partner and hard bussing) are the ones I like to be in when I'm scum, and despite evidence to the contrary in this game, we are pretty similar in the way we play mafia (especially the way we play scum). I'd need to look at your recent scum games to see how you handled your partners, but it makes sense to me. It's also well-known that radical changes in opinion are townie...
really though, I'm just convinced you're scum, I'd need overwhelming evidence to the contrary to makes me think otherwise. The points I'm making are all very WIFOM-y, but that's inevitable with scum!you, so I'll let others say what they think on the subject.
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But WW immediately bought into the "there has to be scum among Doctors" narrative. That's not a winning strategy for scum.
This (from day 3) is pretty self-serving by the way (since that a big argument for your towniness).
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Howere we have established that you think killing ICs is worth... a lot. yuma wasn't an IC, but he wasn't getting lynched any time soon, you would have to kill him at some point.
WW was as much an IC as yuma, and he was a Doctor. So this argument only makes sense if you believe that WW is my scum partner.
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I think yuma was much more of an IC than WW though. WW was and is eminently lynchable, yuma was not.
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But WW immediately bought into the "there has to be scum among Doctors" narrative. That's not a winning strategy for scum.
This (from day 3) is pretty self-serving by the way (since that a big argument for your towniness).
No, you misinterpret me here... What I was saying is that if exactly one of WW/gkrieg was scum, and it was gkrieg, then buying into that narative gets him lynched. It has nothing to do with whether scum!anyone!else would buy into that narrative, or if scum!WW would do it as gkrieg's partner.
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I think yuma was much more of an IC than WW though. WW was and is eminently lynchable, yuma was not.
Then where's the difference?
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But WW immediately bought into the "there has to be scum among Doctors" narrative. That's not a winning strategy for scum.
This (from day 3) is pretty self-serving by the way (since that a big argument for your towniness).
No, you misinterpret me here... What I was saying is that if exactly one of WW/gkrieg was scum, and it was gkrieg, then buying into that narative gets him lynched. It has nothing to do with whether scum!anyone!else would buy into that narrative, or if scum!WW would do it as gkrieg's partner.
Ah, ok.
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I think yuma was much more of an IC than WW though. WW was and is eminently lynchable, yuma was not.
Then where's the difference?
Between yuma and WW ? I just stated it ?
I'm assuming you mean something else but I don't know what it is.
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I think yuma was much more of an IC than WW though. WW was and is eminently lynchable, yuma was not.
Then where's the difference?
Between yuma and WW ? I just stated it ?
I'm assuming you mean something else but I don't know what it is.
Well, I don't see how WW was any more lynchable that yuma, and you stating it doesn't make it true.
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Right, well it's hard to know of course, but yuma is just generally very hard to lynch (much harder than WW), and I think WW was more of a consensus "townie" read, while yuma was a consensus "very townie" read.
They certainly weren't in the same category for me, but I guess I could've been alone there.
Even if you put them on the same level, I don't see why it changes my point, right ? Killing WW would also implicate the doctors by that logic, wouldn't it ? Well, I guess it would't as much, but then that leaves me to wonder why you thought yuma's death implicated gkrieg then ?
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Even if you put them on the same level, I don't see why it changes my point, right ? Killing WW would also implicate the doctors by that logic, wouldn't it ? Well, I guess it would't as much, but then that leaves me to wonder why you thought yuma's death implicated gkrieg then ?
Because WW was a Doctor, and yuma wasn't, and Doctors cannot self-target... like, we've been over all these things already.
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We have but...
Howere we have established that you think killing ICs is worth... a lot. yuma wasn't an IC, but he wasn't getting lynched any time soon, you would have to kill him at some point.
WW was as much an IC as yuma, and he was a Doctor. So this argument only makes sense if you believe that WW is my scum partner.
I guess I don't know what you're getting at here. I'm just wondering why scum!you would kill yuma with the knowledge that it would be very likely to lead to Limetime being lynched, and my answer is "well, faust thinks killing ICs is extremely valuable".
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I could see faust thinking 'I'll get rid of the IC and also get myself town cred in the process'. I could also see gkrieg suggesting it.
But the fact that he's not pushing me now seems odd for scum. That narrows down the field a lot.
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Hum...
WW, could you tell us the time stamp of when gkrieg proposed that you target me? That might give an indication of how much scum discussion happened before that.
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We have but...
Howere we have established that you think killing ICs is worth... a lot. yuma wasn't an IC, but he wasn't getting lynched any time soon, you would have to kill him at some point.
WW was as much an IC as yuma, and he was a Doctor. So this argument only makes sense if you believe that WW is my scum partner.
I guess I don't know what you're getting at here. I'm just wondering why scum!you would kill yuma with the knowledge that it would be very likely to lead to Limetime being lynched, and my answer is "well, faust thinks killing ICs is extremely valuable".
But nothing was stopping scum!me from killing WW and then yuma. And noone would have been in the least surprised by that.
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We have but...
Howere we have established that you think killing ICs is worth... a lot. yuma wasn't an IC, but he wasn't getting lynched any time soon, you would have to kill him at some point.
WW was as much an IC as yuma, and he was a Doctor. So this argument only makes sense if you believe that WW is my scum partner.
I guess I don't know what you're getting at here. I'm just wondering why scum!you would kill yuma with the knowledge that it would be very likely to lead to Limetime being lynched, and my answer is "well, faust thinks killing ICs is extremely valuable".
But nothing was stopping scum!me from killing WW and then yuma. And noone would have been in the least surprised by that.
But... your argument is that WW was as much an IC as yuma, so why wouldn't anyone be surprised by that ?
Like, I agree that WW dying wouldn't have been as bad for the doctors, but why would you think that given your stance on WW/yuma ?
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We have but...
Howere we have established that you think killing ICs is worth... a lot. yuma wasn't an IC, but he wasn't getting lynched any time soon, you would have to kill him at some point.
WW was as much an IC as yuma, and he was a Doctor. So this argument only makes sense if you believe that WW is my scum partner.
I guess I don't know what you're getting at here. I'm just wondering why scum!you would kill yuma with the knowledge that it would be very likely to lead to Limetime being lynched, and my answer is "well, faust thinks killing ICs is extremely valuable".
But nothing was stopping scum!me from killing WW and then yuma. And noone would have been in the least surprised by that.
But... your argument is that WW was as much an IC as yuma, so why wouldn't anyone be surprised by that ?
Like, I agree that WW dying wouldn't have been as bad for the doctors, but why would you think that given your stance on WW/yuma ?
Because scum would have to assume that yuma was protected... I said all those things already (and you agreed).
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I agreed because yuma, I thought, was very close to an IC, which WW was not, something you disagree with.
So yeah, I still agree with all that, I'm just wondering why you do.
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Vote Count 4.1
Teproc (1): faust
silverspawn (1): scott_pilgrim
faust (2): Hydrad, Teproc
Not Voting (4): silverspawn, EgorK, Witherweaver
With 7 alive it takes 4 to lynch. Day Four ends at 7 pm forum time Wednesday, April 13th.[/color
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I agreed because yuma, I thought, was very close to an IC, which WW was not, something you disagree with.
So yeah, I still agree with all that, I'm just wondering why you do.
The Doctors could not protect WW, but they could protect yuma, so it was clear that they'd protect yuma.
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Hum...
WW, could you tell us the time stamp of when gkrieg proposed that you target me? That might give an indication of how much scum discussion happened before that.
Two posts:
09:46 AM ET (US) (Suggest Doctoring Faust as a question)
10:57 AM ET (US) (Puts in command that I doctor Faust)
11:00 AM ET (US) is when I check the QT and put in the vote.
Thread was unlocked at 07:10 AM ET (US). This was all 3/28.
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Regarding suspecting me, I don't think it's reasonable to think I could be Limetime's partner here.
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We have but...
Howere we have established that you think killing ICs is worth... a lot. yuma wasn't an IC, but he wasn't getting lynched any time soon, you would have to kill him at some point.
WW was as much an IC as yuma, and he was a Doctor. So this argument only makes sense if you believe that WW is my scum partner.
I guess I don't know what you're getting at here. I'm just wondering why scum!you would kill yuma with the knowledge that it would be very likely to lead to Limetime being lynched, and my answer is "well, faust thinks killing ICs is extremely valuable".
But nothing was stopping scum!me from killing WW and then yuma. And noone would have been in the least surprised by that.
Unless scum thinks I'm lynchable. Killing Yuma opens the door for lynching the doctors. It's possible scum wanted to go for that but Limetime/Gkrieg got too much traction.
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I agreed because yuma, I thought, was very close to an IC, which WW was not, something you disagree with.
So yeah, I still agree with all that, I'm just wondering why you do.
The Doctors could not protect WW, but they could protect yuma, so it was clear that they'd protect yuma.
Actually this line of thinking (present from the beginning of yesterday) is what makes me suspect Faust the most. It's a lot of analyzing actions that don't involve him if he's not scum.
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Hum...
WW, could you tell us the time stamp of when gkrieg proposed that you target me? That might give an indication of how much scum discussion happened before that.
Two posts:
09:46 AM ET (US) (Suggest Doctoring Faust as a question)
10:57 AM ET (US) (Puts in command that I doctor Faust)
11:00 AM ET (US) is when I check the QT and put in the vote.
Thread was unlocked at 07:10 AM ET (US). This was all 3/28.
So not a lot of time for scum to coordinate I suppose... arguably enough if we have two scum with European timezone.
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Regarding suspecting me, I don't think it's reasonable to think I could be Limetime's partner here.
Why not? I mean I don't really think you're scum, but that isn't because I think you could not be gkrieg's partner.
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Unless scum thinks I'm lynchable. Killing Yuma opens the door for lynching the doctors. It's possible scum wanted to go for that but Limetime/Gkrieg got too much traction.
gkrieg did not go after you though. And anyway it doesn't seem like a very good plan.
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I agreed because yuma, I thought, was very close to an IC, which WW was not, something you disagree with.
So yeah, I still agree with all that, I'm just wondering why you do.
The Doctors could not protect WW, but they could protect yuma, so it was clear that they'd protect yuma.
Actually this line of thinking (present from the beginning of yesterday) is what makes me suspect Faust the most. It's a lot of analyzing actions that don't involve him if he's not scum.
Not sure I understand what you mean... is it that I spend too much time thinking about stuff that doesn't concern me? Well I like thinking. Plus we are all PRs, and well PRs interact, so without saying more, it kinda makes sense to think about what other meighborhoods will do.
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Regarding suspecting me, I don't think it's reasonable to think I could be Limetime's partner here.
Why not? I mean I don't really think you're scum, but that isn't because I think you could not be gkrieg's partner.
I was the main person behind his lynch since Day 2.
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I agreed because yuma, I thought, was very close to an IC, which WW was not, something you disagree with.
So yeah, I still agree with all that, I'm just wondering why you do.
The Doctors could not protect WW, but they could protect yuma, so it was clear that they'd protect yuma.
Actually this line of thinking (present from the beginning of yesterday) is what makes me suspect Faust the most. It's a lot of analyzing actions that don't involve him if he's not scum.
Not sure I understand what you mean... is it that I spend too much time thinking about stuff that doesn't concern me? Well I like thinking. Plus we are all PRs, and well PRs interact, so without saying more, it kinda makes sense to think about what other meighborhoods will do.
I don't usually think too much about other player's night actions, unless I have to take an action myself. Even then, I don't do any kind of diligence. It's pretty in character for you, so it's not a huge thing, but it's odd to me that this was on the forefront of your mind going into Day 3.
Also, RR had been lynched the day before, so if you were Roleblocker you didn't have a PR to consider, and PGO does not seem to relevant to the Doctor interaction.
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Hum...
WW, could you tell us the time stamp of when gkrieg proposed that you target me? That might give an indication of how much scum discussion happened before that.
Two posts:
09:46 AM ET (US) (Suggest Doctoring Faust as a question)
10:57 AM ET (US) (Puts in command that I doctor Faust)
11:00 AM ET (US) is when I check the QT and put in the vote.
Thread was unlocked at 07:10 AM ET (US). This was all 3/28.
So not a lot of time for scum to coordinate I suppose... arguably enough if we have two scum with European timezone.
What kind of coordination are you thinking of here?
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What kind of coordination are you thinking of here?
"Let's get the Docs to target someone else so we can lynch yuma."
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What kind of coordination are you thinking of here?
"Let's get the Docs to target someone else so we can lynch yuma."
Ah. But that could have been discussed before.
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ya I'm liking faust here still.
I was thinking of going SS but thats a bit lower now that I think about it. I don't know if SS really posts about how hes unsure about his reads and stuff as scum. so it might be egork as the other one.
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ya I'm liking faust here still.
And can you tell me why? Or answer my question from earlier?
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I reread Limetime. Aside from tunneling RR not much. Accuses me of making up excuses, votes Teproc. What to make up from the latter? Looks like inexperienced bussing.
Let's see what gkrieg would bring
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Gkrieg D2 rereads: pushes RR, hedging on Teproc, town on Hydrad, would lynch on e
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Though just in the next post says he would do Teproc, but would not e
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So from rereading the beginning of D2, I think it is very possible that Teproc and faust are scum partners. They have this big argument about how Teproc's hammer is scummy. I think they were also some of the few people who noticed Joseph's soft claim of doctor.
scum!Teproc would want to hammer so they could kill the wonderful IC we had, but would know he would get flak for it D2. faust is trying to be one of the first people on that wagon, to get towncred.
Faust's tone in that fight sounds like he knows Teproc is scum, which he would if they were partners.
Also feeling very scummy on Hydrad.
faust also gets the probability of scum being in the doc neighborhood wrong I think. It can't really be 50%, because that would mean that each neighborhood has a 50% chance of scum being in it, which doesn't seem right to me.
s_p also advocates for a lynch from the doc neighborhood.
Teproc is against lynching from the doc neighborhood.
Hydrad also for lynching from the doctors
faust switches his vote to RR for a policy lynch for being annoying.
After a while goes back to voting for Teproc
D2 finishes with RR getting lynched
At the start of D3, up until now, they both seem very buddy, buddy, like nothing happened yesterday. Everyone seems to have forgotten about Teproc.
They then have a little tussle a couple of pages ago.
vote: faust
From this reread, I think faust and Teproc are scum. I get townie reads from WW, EgorK, Hydrad. Pretty null on others.
Also from my reread, I didn't know faust helped design this game.
Quote for reference
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So apparently I am a lynch candidate. The two people voting for me are my two scum reads, but I certainly don't want this wagon to grow. So this is a defense.
First, let us look at my treatment of the WW wagon. I believe I was the first on the wagon (even before the whole "scumslip" thing). I actually jump onto the scumslip, which you might think is an easy scum move. But that is not considering the whole story. Because at the height of the WW wagon, and with a pretty comfortable wagon position, I actually leave it, with this reasoning:
Well, meh. I am upset because people mess up. It's not a first from WW though. Doing some research... WW was scum in M63, where he actually called someone out (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13318.msg496322#msg496322) for not having read the setup. That's not much, but it makes me question whether scum!WW is the type to fabricate "haven't read the setup"-townslips.
I really went back and researched trying to figure out WW's alignment. All this happens prior to WW's "townslip". I mean I could fake that as scum, but why bother? No, this is me looking stuff up and changing my mind as a result, and it's a very towny thing to do.
Second - earlier, Teproc called me out for defending Limetime. Well, that is a scummy thing to do per se, right? Only I don't do that. I only question votes that seem to be parking their vote lazily on a lurker without being open about it. That is certainly something I can also do as scum, but it's also perfectly standard play for town!me. If anything, that should be a null tell, yet Teproc somehow seems to think that it makes me very scummy.
Then, we have my case on Teproc. You know that I've been pushing this since D1. Is that scum!faust tunneling someone to imitate his town meta? Well it's not that easy. Just look at this post (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=14877.msg576890#msg576890). It's another instance of me looking twice and changing my mind. In this particular case,I go from a scum read to a null read. Man, that isn't something scum wants to do. Like, if you change your mind, at least do it properly. You know these posts come from town anyway, so you can easily find them towny. I feel like this post in particular is one of my towniest this game.
The next thing you should consider is when RR gets to L-1 on D1. I make this post:
At first I thought the number was wrong, and I was so close to fakehammering RR for reactions... well, good thing I didn't.
Well first, if I realized that, I probably also realized I could have gotten away with derphammering RR... but I didn't. Second - scum doesn't want to fakehammer for reactions, at least historically. Why do I think of doing that? Because I'm town.
Then RR claims, and I state intent to hammer... but I don't hammer. RR is pretty damn lynchable at this point. If you've committed as far as intent to hammer as scum, why not finish it?
Then well my Joseph vote. Gotta admit that's a classic scum move: I put Limetime and Joseph as preferred lynches, but vote for town over scum. All I can say in my defense is that I didn't want to lynch a newbie D1. I also get into tunneling mode from there on. What can I say? I had a pretty good feeling about this, and historically have been good at figuring out Joseph's alignment, so I thought I might as well go for it. But if you're seeing this as me trying to get a Doc lynched, let me ask you this: I have been a staunch supporter of letting Docs claim at L-1. For all I knew at that point, Joseph would have claimed and would not have been lynched and in the end, the whole thing would have only made me look bad.
That's D1 for you, and I think there are already plenty of reasons in this to think that I am town.
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Well, this certainly did not have the impact I was going for.
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Well, this certainly did not have the impact I was going for.
vote: silverspawn
There you go.
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Sure, why not
Vote: Silverspawn
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Can we please NOT nonchalantly put anyone to unannounced L-1? Jeez.
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What's the case on silverspawn? Has anyone looked at his interactions with Limetime prior to D3?
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My case is he's absent, which town!silverspawn wouldn't be at this stage.
I'll admit that you going after me doesn't feel like a great strategy, which is making me a bit colder about your lynch.
You're right though, i should look at interactions.
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My case is he's absent, which town!silverspawn wouldn't be at this stage.
I don't know, I have been generally disappointed in town!silverspawn lately.
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My case is he's absent, which town!silverspawn wouldn't be at this stage.
I'll admit that you going after me doesn't feel like a great strategy, which is making me a bit colder about your lynch.
You're right though, i should look at interactions.
I'm absent because I don't really have much to say in my defense.
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Request prod on scott_pilgrim
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Can we please NOT nonchalantly put anyone to unannounced L-1? Jeez.
Much chalant. Such wow.
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My case is he's absent, which town!silverspawn wouldn't be at this stage.
I'll admit that you going after me doesn't feel like a great strategy, which is making me a bit colder about your lynch.
You're right though, i should look at interactions.
I'm absent because I don't really have much to say in my defense.
Well, SAY SOMETHING ELSE THEN!
Man, what is this, mafia 101?
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My case is he's absent, which town!silverspawn wouldn't be at this stage.
I'll admit that you going after me doesn't feel like a great strategy, which is making me a bit colder about your lynch.
You're right though, i should look at interactions.
I'm absent because I don't really have much to say in my defense.
How is that a good reason ? You don't have anything to say with regards to anyone else's alignment either ?
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My case is he's absent, which town!silverspawn wouldn't be at this stage.
I'll admit that you going after me doesn't feel like a great strategy, which is making me a bit colder about your lynch.
You're right though, i should look at interactions.
I'm absent because I don't really have much to say in my defense.
Well, SAY SOMETHING ELSE THEN!
Man, what is this, mafia 101?
Indeed.
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I am so happy I decided to take a break right now. In case you were wondering, this attitude is the reason.
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I am so happy I decided to take a break right now. In case you were wondering, this attitude is the reason.
that's pretty unfair
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I am so happy I decided to take a break right now. In case you were wondering, this attitude is the reason.
that's pretty unfair
I don't know about unfair. I think it's unfair if people sign up for a game that as part of its rules says "please treat this as a commitment" and then permanently have to be poked and prodded to do anything.
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oh lulz scum has daychat.
well in that case vote: Limetime
oh lulz scum has daychat.
well in that case vote: Limetime
Can you explain how these two things are related?
that's easy; WW isn't scum, so it's someone else. Limetime is the first choice that comes to mind.
This is early day 1, just after the WW "townslip" kills that wagon.
I don't think we should lynch him, in any case.
I might want to lynch the third doctor... or somene who's been flying under the radar. Not Teproc, SP, you, or Limetime.
Midway through day 2 now. "You" is yuma. Worth noting because Limetime was in fact the third doctor.
That's it. Meh.
unvote
Let's look somewhere else.
PPE : I agree with faust. (!)
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To explicit that "meh" : the third doctor thing is actually pretty significant. Sure, you could fake it, but as a matter of fact Limetime was already out as a doctor at this point, to anyone paying attention. scum!silver would probably be aware of that.
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I am so happy I decided to take a break right now. In case you were wondering, this attitude is the reason.
that's pretty unfair
I don't know about unfair. I think it's unfair if people sign up for a game that as part of its rules says "please treat this as a commitment" and then permanently have to be poked and prodded to do anything.
It's unfair because you are using double and triple standards. This is one of my less active games and my worst performance in a long time and you're saying I am the reason you are taking a break from mafia.
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As even in this game there are several people less active than me
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Hm, these are good points.
Anyway... uh Vote: Hydrad I guess because I don't really want to lynch one of the few players who is actually invested in the game. Also people don't seem to agree anyway.
PPE: 1
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As even in this game there are several people less active than me
Well I have the fascinating ability to be pissed at multiple people at the same time.
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As even in this game there are several people less active than me
Well I have the fascinating ability to be pissed at multiple people at the same time.
right but you just told me that I'm the reason
also about commitment; I already reread the entire first 800 posts of this game. I just didn't get that much out of it. Most of the people still alive are cautious town reads, and my biggest scum read was you of whom I've recently been losing confidence
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Also people don't seem to agree anyway.
PPE: 1
They aren't? Wasn't I just at L-1?
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Also people don't seem to agree anyway.
PPE: 1
They aren't? Wasn't I just at L-1?
I was not voting for you.
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oh lulz scum has daychat.
well in that case vote: Limetime
Can you explain how these two things are related?
that's easy; WW isn't scum, so it's someone else. Limetime is the first choice that comes to mind.
So I read more in your words then there are (like he plays first time here, but has no questions, can he ask them in scum QT?)
Actually vote: limetime. Limetime, can you answer, do you have any experience playing forum mafia?
Early day one, as Limetime was developing as a wagon after WW "townslipped".
Sorry, unexpected trip until Saturday. Would still have time to read and probably post a little/
Also between Teproc ans SP I think SP comes out as scummy, but this is more of a gut feeling. Still want answer from Limetime
Prodding for an answer like that is somewhat partner-y.
I agree with faust on Joseph. I think this warrants Vote: Joseph
I still find Limetime scummy, but between them I'd choose Joseph.
As faust said earlier, a classic.
Well the question now becomes... Do we wait and see if he is replaced or do we pre-empitvely use a lynch rather than wait for a modkill, if it gets to that point. I basically see it as a random lynch, so the equivalent of a modkill so would rather lynch someone else and let the modkill happen if it must, but having both a modkill and a lynch could put us in a non ideal situation player number wise toward the end of the game...
Lynching Limetime now is equialent to no lynch later on (in case he would be modkilled). And we can always do that (no lynch). So lynching himm to keep parity seems not advisable
This is day 2, shortly before Limetime was replaced. Reasonable, though scum!EgorK is probably slightly more likely to post this.
I just do not see scum going to yuma unless they are sure he is not protected. So, Vote: gkrieg
Also, was there successful motion detection?
Gets in pretty early on the gkrieg wagon on D3 (just after faust and me here), and doesn't move.
Possible. Gets some points for being active today though. Probably a decent lynch though.
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right but you just told me that I'm the reason
No, I did not:
I am so happy I decided to take a break right now. In case you were wondering, this attitude is the reason.
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I guess I forgot to introduce the above as a Egork reread.
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Let's get back to a favorite with S_P.
10. Limetime D1 newbie pass, though he really really needs to be posting more
Convenient, but pretty null.
Aaand that's it.
vote: S_P
Not that this reread broughtme much, but I still feel reasonably confident that there's at least one scum in {faust, S_P}. I'm not sure which is more likely, but at least faust is doing stuff.
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well yes you didn't say 'you are the reason', but you were pretty close
unvote by the way
okay one thing I can do is to reexamine WW's town slip, because I'm still or again unsure of how much credit I really want to give him
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Not that this reread broughtme much, but I still feel reasonably confident that there's at least one scum in {faust, S_P}. I'm not sure which is more likely, but at least faust is doing stuff.
what about his defense?
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because without his slip, he'd be my go-to candidate. There aren't that many choices left.
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Not that this reread broughtme much, but I still feel reasonably confident that there's at least one scum in {faust, S_P}. I'm not sure which is more likely, but at least faust is doing stuff.
what about his defense?
Who, faust ? It read super scummy but all defenses read super scummy to me because they make everything townie someone has done WIFOM by virtue of them pointing out how townie those things are.
So... it didn't convince me at all, what is convincing me is that feeling that scum is quite happy watching town argue and doing nothing. scum!faust would feel some obligation to post given his meta of course, but still.
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I don't like lynching WW.
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Facts for future:
My first post in the neighborhood QT was at 10:20 PM (EST) on March 6. Both other neighbors posted (one message each) before me. I posted a thought in there and there was no response.
There was no mod announcement to say who was in the neighborhood.
Thread locked at 7:00 PM (EST) on March 7. I'm assuming all of these (including scum QT) closed around the same time. That's enough time for scum to share who was in my neighborhood if one of my neighbors is scum.
There are actually a number of explanations
- WW didn't know scum has daychat.
- WW forgot he has daychat
- WW forgot it for a moment, decided to write that post, realized it upon writing, wrote it anyway, spontaneously constructing the slip
- Scum planed for someone to construct a slip around not knowing daychat.
All of those are totally possible. None of them is particularly likely though. Mhh. I think I'll conclude something like moderate town cred.
more town cred for Egork for pointing it out though, I think I said that already. Not something you want to do unless you're both scum.
I don't like lynching WW.
Why not?
Not that this reread broughtme much, but I still feel reasonably confident that there's at least one scum in {faust, S_P}. I'm not sure which is more likely, but at least faust is doing stuff.
what about his defense?
Who, faust ? It read super scummy but all defenses read super scummy to me because they make everything townie someone has done WIFOM by virtue of them pointing out how townie those things are.
So... it didn't convince me at all, what is convincing me is that feeling that scum is quite happy watching town argue and doing nothing. scum!faust would feel some obligation to post given his meta of course, but still.
So you're basically saying it's null just because it's a defense and they never convince you? I mean the point is to not look at how he says they're towny but just look at the things he's done.
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silver: Why do you think that Teproc and Hydrad are townie?
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I have reason to believe that Egor is town due to neighborhood stuff.
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Going by the notorious game where he bussed both partners and almost won the game on its own (I think that was pony mafia), I feel like traditional towny behavior is not telling for Teproc. What he didn't have that game were more heated debates. He's had those here and they do not feel fake.
Hydrad has almost the same playstyle as both alignments in all games, except that his posts tend to I believe have more content as town, which seems to be the case here. That could be worth checking again, but I did think it upon my last reread without remembering specifics.
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Egork is really the last person I want to lynch.
I guess vote: SP is legit.
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To explicit that "meh" : the third doctor thing is actually pretty significant. Sure, you could fake it, but as a matter of fact Limetime was already out as a doctor at this point, to anyone paying attention. scum!silver would probably be aware of that.
Those are actually good points.
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I haven't considered Egor as possible scum much this game, but he's felt a lot like his town self. If Silver is out and Teproc and Faust are out, that puts it at Hydrad/SP.
scum!Hydrad took a serious bussing route towards Gkrieg/Limetime. Gut-wise, it seems believable.
I guess it's worth checking if a Hydrad/SP team is reasonable.
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because SP has done the least to make me think he's town. Makes a lot of sense and is reasonable but he could do that as scum as someone has pointed out before.
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I have reason to believe that Egor is town due to neighborhood stuff.
We had claimed neighborhoods or I missed something?
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I have reason to believe that Egor is town due to neighborhood stuff.
We had claimed neighborhoods or I missed something?
That should be "Had we claimed neighborhoods? Had I missed something?"
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Is there still an advantage to not claiming neighborhoods?
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Is there still an advantage to not claiming neighborhoods?
I think so and would prefer to claim tomorrow.
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Okay.
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Ah Faust. My reasoning on you is still mainly gut but now also POe. Also I apologize for not being very active in this game.
Anyways. Looks like Faust isn't getting lynched at GE moment. And suddenly ss is. I'd actually prefer egork over ss
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Hmm. I could see benifits for claiming now. But not that much I guess. So waiting till tomorrow is ok too
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Pretty much the only thing I could see value in claiming would be positive Motion Detecting results, and even then.
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Pretty much the only thing I could see value in claiming would be positive Motion Detecting results, and even then.
Hmm the other slight thing I was thinking is seeing what groups people were in that were killed might give us an idea where scum is. But that wouldn't be hard evidence. Just something that could give slight better odds to one person
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Ah Faust. My reasoning on you is still mainly gut but now also POe. Also I apologize for not being very active in this game.
Anyways. Looks like Faust isn't getting lynched at GE moment. And suddenly ss is. I'd actually prefer egork over ss
Egork, really? DO you think town!Egork would point out a town slip that everyone missed?
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Ah Faust. My reasoning on you is still mainly gut but now also POe. Also I apologize for not being very active in this game.
Anyways. Looks like Faust isn't getting lynched at GE moment. And suddenly ss is. I'd actually prefer egork over ss
Egork, really? DO you think town!Egork would point out a town slip that everyone missed?
Yes.
I don't particularly think EgorK is scum, but this is a ridiculous argument.
a) It wasn't a townslip. It didn't make WW unlynchable is what I mean
b) scum!EgorK is more likely to notice it in the first place.
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He's more likely to notice it, but why would he ever point it out? I would certainly never do that as scum.
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Well I would do it 99.9% of the time. Someone will notice it eventually, might as well be you.
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Or no-one notices it. players don't notice so much.
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It would have at least been noticed on rereads.
Also, it's barely significant, so the cost to pointing it out is quite small.
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It would have at least been noticed on rereads.
Also, it's barely significant, so the cost to pointing it out is quite small.
It's objectively significant based on people giving town cred to it. That doesn't change just because you don't think they should.
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I don't think people other than you are actually giving it that much credit, and more relevantly : I don't think EgorK would have expected it to be that significant, because townslips rarely matter that much in the long run. They might give you a day 1 pass, maybe even day 2, but they never last much longer than that.
Whatever, I don't particularly want to lynch EgorK so let's move on. What do you think of SP ?
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Request prod on scott_pilgrim
Prod sent.
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I don't think people other than you are actually giving it that much credit, and more relevantly : I don't think EgorK would have expected it to be that significant, because townslips rarely matter that much in the long run. They might give you a day 1 pass, maybe even day 2, but they never last much longer than that.
I recall several cases where people were NKd early because of townslips. I think saying they rarely matter is really unfactual. Also, wasn't everyone giving WW tons of towncred? e and hydrad and I think others too?
Whatever, I don't particularly want to lynch EgorK so let's move on. What do you think of SP ?
Pretty much what I said a few posts ago.
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Right, you're voting for him too, good.
Hydrad ? WW ? Thoughts on a S_P lynch ?
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Right, you're voting for him too, good.
Hydrad ? WW ? Thoughts on a S_P lynch ?
I have no reason to think he's town.
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I had a gut town read on him. And kinda like his posts. So I'd rather go elsewhere I huess
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So scott, huh? I guess I can reread him. I probably won't quote complete posts because scott's posts tend to be long.
This is the first, post-setup theory thing:
Let's look at it. His position on WW is somewhat vague, but very much mirrors what I thought there. What I think is pretty townie is the way he pulls out my quote as "this bothers me" and then talks himself into a position where it doesn't bother him. That is the kind of making up your mind as you go along that's hard to fabricate as scum.
Reaction to WW's slip thing is somewhat scummy. But I don't see WW as scott's partner here.
Here's a little WIFOM to consider:
Yeah, I think that last point is worth emphasizing. Newbies are a lot more likely to be obv!town or obv!scum later in the game, which makes lynching them early usually bad.
I assume that is what scott really thinks. But if scum!scott thinks Limetime is not going to make it, he might as well push him for towncred, right?
He also restarts the discussion about WW's slip and how Teproc's treatment was scummy... well I agree there, so bias. But with other lynch candidates like RR, pushing a Teproc wagon doesn't seem necessary strictly. He also makes some good arguments against Teproc's accusations. He sort of hedges onto Joseph, that's not too great I suppose. Also posts a reads list which is basically everyone's null or town except Teproc and Joseph, then puts Joseph to L-2. Next relevant post:
Well I certainly don't like that Limetime is sort of dangling there as the "he's also scummy" kinda type. Though to be fair, little else could be said about Limetime. But he continues to tunnel Teproc hard. Then in a crucial point in the game, he votes RR over Limetime... not good. He goes back to Teproc though after that wagon gets some traction. Well I guess that's not saying too much if we assume that Teproc is town. Which really we shouldn't but I don't think he's scott's partner.
On D3, he gets in when gkrieg is at L-1 and is suspicious of that wagon. I don't know. It's certainly a thing to try and get something onto WW as scum, but at that point it seems really difficult to do that. And scum!scott would 100% have had all the things figured out when they killed yuma. So what does that leave me with...? scum!scott means that scum knew that killing yuma would make gkrieg look very bad. If they went through with it anyway, I would assume that they push that lynch hard. scott didn't do that. In the end, this means a town read.
Yeah, he actually votes WW for this. It doesn't make a ton of sense as scum play.
I don't know man. First I thought "hey he looks town". Then I thought "well actually these things look pretty scummy" and in the end "that is not how scum would play if scott was scum". And I'm pretty sure he's not partnered with Teproc. You know, my other scum read. No, I don't think lynching scott is the way to go.
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In fact, let me make this statement:
scum!scott would not have killed yuma.
People voting for scott, please refute this.
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On D3, he gets in when gkrieg is at L-1 and is suspicious of that wagon. I don't know. It's certainly a thing to try and get something onto WW as scum, but at that point it seems really difficult to do that. And scum!scott would 100% have had all the things figured out when they killed yuma. So what does that leave me with...? scum!scott means that scum knew that killing yuma would make gkrieg look very bad. If they went through with it anyway, I would assume that they push that lynch hard. scott didn't do that. In the end, this means a town read.
You mean, like you did?
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On D3, he gets in when gkrieg is at L-1 and is suspicious of that wagon. I don't know. It's certainly a thing to try and get something onto WW as scum, but at that point it seems really difficult to do that. And scum!scott would 100% have had all the things figured out when they killed yuma. So what does that leave me with...? scum!scott means that scum knew that killing yuma would make gkrieg look very bad. If they went through with it anyway, I would assume that they push that lynch hard. scott didn't do that. In the end, this means a town read.
You mean, like you did?
Yes. And like Teproc did.
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scum!scott would not have killed yuma.
Mhpf. I agree.
He was not alone though. But yeah meh. unvote
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Catching up now
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scum!scott would not have killed yuma.
Well I know I'm biased but I think this is actually a really good point.
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scum!scott would not have killed yuma.
Well I know I'm biased but I think this is actually a really good point.
Why, what would you have done?
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I'm a little wary of faust because I feel like he's agreed with me on basically everything this game. At first I thought Teproc's case on him looked really solid, but then faust's defense looked really solid too. My gut says one of {faust, Teproc} is scum, and I think it's more likely Teproc, but at this point I'm worried that it's just a bias that I'm carrying over from earlier in the game. Otherwise, there's:
EgorK - town
Hydrad - null
Witherweaver - null
silverspawn - scum
I still think silverspawn is the best lynch just based on D3. But that's just based on my memory of it, I want to go back and reread silverspawn at some point, maybe later tonight.
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scum!scott would not have killed yuma.
Well I know I'm biased but I think this is actually a really good point.
Why, what would you have done?
I don't know...not go after a likely doc target?
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Although I guess to be fair, I don't really see any of the currently alive players doing that...
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scum!scott would not have killed yuma.
Well I know I'm biased but I think this is actually a really good point.
Why, what would you have done?
I don't know...not go after a likely doc target?
Er.. why?
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I'm a little wary of faust because I feel like he's agreed with me on basically everything this game. At first I thought Teproc's case on him looked really solid, but then faust's defense looked really solid too. My gut says one of {faust, Teproc} is scum, and I think it's more likely Teproc, but at this point I'm worried that it's just a bias that I'm carrying over from earlier in the game.
Actually...I feel like this whole game I've mentally just given faust a pass because he's agree with me on everything and assumed Teproc is scum because he disagrees with me on everything. Now I'm super worried this whole time scum!faust has been doing this to get me on his side.
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scum!scott would not have killed yuma.
Well I know I'm biased but I think this is actually a really good point.
Why, what would you have done?
I don't know...not go after a likely doc target?
Er.. why?
So that my partner doesn't get lynched when the kill goes through?
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I'm a little wary of faust because I feel like he's agreed with me on basically everything this game. At first I thought Teproc's case on him looked really solid, but then faust's defense looked really solid too. My gut says one of {faust, Teproc} is scum, and I think it's more likely Teproc, but at this point I'm worried that it's just a bias that I'm carrying over from earlier in the game.
Actually...I feel like this whole game I've mentally just given faust a pass because he's agree with me on everything and assumed Teproc is scum because he disagrees with me on everything. Now I'm super worried this whole time scum!faust has been doing this to get me on his side.
Although why does scum buddy me specifically, that seems like something people always bring up but in practice doesn't really happen.
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Well food for thought; you're scum!Doctor... do you bring up the idea of Doctoring your partner?
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Reasonable scenario is that Gkrieg (having just subbed in) didn't really look back at everything, thought Faust was townie (which, if Faust is town, one would exaggerate as scum since they know it to be true), and thought he was the most sensible Doctor target. So Gkreig just did what he would think he would do as town. Then partners thought it would be good to kill Yuma.
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It's possible scum did not consider Yuma the 'obvious' choice for Doctor anyway; I didn't, after all.
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Wait. What are we even talking about? With scum in the doc neighborhood, mafia knew that yuma was not protected, so killing him was safe.
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Why is S_P less likely than anyone else to have killed yuma ? I truly don't follow...
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If the idea is that S_P would have realised it meant gkrieg's likely death, then you're basically arguing the scum team is Hydrad and.... maybe EgorK ? Really though Hydrad is about the only player who I could see not realising that, and even then I'm not so sure.
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scott is more of a maths guy and is more likely to think of who is being protected
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Again, any team of two you can think of could've seen how killing yuma was going to put gkrieg in danger.
In fact I'd put S_P among the most likely to not think of that simply because he's had periods of inactivity, and if that happened during the night he might have not had the time to think about it that much.
I doubt this is faust's argument though.
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Wait. What are we even talking about? With scum in the doc neighborhood, mafia knew that yuma was not protected, so killing him was safe.
the argument is invalid anyway.
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Wait, ok that argument makes even less sense than the one I thought I was responding to.
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Wait, ok that argument makes even less sense than the one I thought I was responding to.
why
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If the idea is that S_P would have realised it meant gkrieg's likely death, then you're basically arguing the scum team is Hydrad and.... maybe EgorK ? Really though Hydrad is about the only player who I could see not realising that, and even then I'm not so sure.
I am arguing that if he would have realised that and gone through with it anyway, he would have pushed gkrieg the following day. He didn't. You did.
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I'm a little wary of faust because I feel like he's agreed with me on basically everything this game. At first I thought Teproc's case on him looked really solid, but then faust's defense looked really solid too. My gut says one of {faust, Teproc} is scum, and I think it's more likely Teproc, but at this point I'm worried that it's just a bias that I'm carrying over from earlier in the game.
Actually...I feel like this whole game I've mentally just given faust a pass because he's agree with me on everything and assumed Teproc is scum because he disagrees with me on everything. Now I'm super worried this whole time scum!faust has been doing this to get me on his side.
I don't agree that silver is scummy, if that helps.
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Does nobody have any opinion on Hydrad by the way? Other than "he's been productive" (which I doubt; he made longer posts than usual, but that's not being productive).
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If the idea is that S_P would have realised it meant gkrieg's likely death, then you're basically arguing the scum team is Hydrad and.... maybe EgorK ? Really though Hydrad is about the only player who I could see not realising that, and even then I'm not so sure.
I am arguing that if he would have realised that and gone through with it anyway, he would have pushed gkrieg the following day. He didn't. You did.
I don't find that convincing. You're assuming scum accepted to sacrifice gkrieg in exchange with yuma, but that's just not good strategy : it is notorious that 1:1 exchanges are bad, especially when it's the first scum flip. I think scum was aware it was dangerous, but must have been hoping to lynch WW. What you're saying is possible too, but seems less likely to me.
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If the idea is that S_P would have realised it meant gkrieg's likely death, then you're basically arguing the scum team is Hydrad and.... maybe EgorK ? Really though Hydrad is about the only player who I could see not realising that, and even then I'm not so sure.
I am arguing that if he would have realised that and gone through with it anyway, he would have pushed gkrieg the following day. He didn't. You did.
I don't find that convincing. You're assuming scum accepted to sacrifice gkrieg in exchange with yuma, but that's just not good strategy : it is notorious that 1:1 exchanges are bad, especially when it's the first scum flip. I think scum was aware it was dangerous, but must have been hoping to lynch WW. What you're saying is possible too, but seems less likely to me.
I have thrown gkrieg under a bus on D1 as scum. That's a 1:0 exchange... was that bad play too?
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I wans't in that game I don't think, but even if you drove a bus on your scumpartner on day 1, that's not the same as making a kill that gives your partner a 50% chance (at best) to be lynched. You can be clamoring for a lynch for days and have it never happen, as you're well aware of, if only because of my continuing existence in this game (and S_P's).
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I wans't in that game I don't think, but even if you drove a bus on your scumpartner on day 1, that's not the same as making a kill that gives your partner a 50% chance (at best) to be lynched. You can be clamoring for a lynch for days and have it never happen, as you're well aware of, if only because of my continuing existence in this game (and S_P's).
But that doesn't matter; if you're going for the bus, that's because you think him getting lynched will benefit your team. So, if he's not lynched, that's bad. Increasing the probability of him being lynched is a good thing within this.
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Well, I basically don't think getting your partner lynched is ever a positive outcome. That's not to say you should never do it, but I don't think scum is in the business of actively trying to get their partners lynched if they can prevent it. When I bus, it's because I think it's going to happen anyway so I might as well be on wagon.
So I don't think scum intended on gkrieg getting lynched when they killed yuma... they accepted the risk that it would happen, but must have hoped for something else, probably a WW lynch. Note that this doesn't clear you : forcing the early wagon on gkrieg would actually have been my strategy as scum in thatsituation, because early wagons that go up to L-1 are fast and can be derailed.
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Well, I basically don't think getting your partner lynched is ever a positive outcome. That's not to say you should never do it, but I don't think scum is in the business of actively trying to get their partners lynched if they can prevent it. When I bus, it's because I think it's going to happen anyway so I might as well be on wagon.
So I don't think scum intended on gkrieg getting lynched when they killed yuma... they accepted the risk that it would happen, but must have hoped for something else, probably a WW lynch. Note that this doesn't clear you : forcing the early wagon on gkrieg would actually have been my strategy as scum in thatsituation, because early wagons that go up to L-1 are fast and can be derailed.
It's certainly interesting that you know better than me how I play as scum.
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That's definitely the argument I'm making, well done.
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That's definitely the argument I'm making, well done.
Well I don't know what to tell you; you say:
"I don't think scum is in the business of actively trying to get their partners lynched if they can prevent it."
and yet I already provided a counterexample to that assumption.
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Yes, but I'm talking about scum in general, and S_P in particular (since you are saying it is impossible for S_P to be scum for that reason). There is no statement you can make about scum in general without any one player being able to contradict it, should I never make any statement about what scum do ? Should you ?
Right, so most scum players under most circumstances won't see their partners dying as a good thing, unless there are setup elements changing things (see : EFHW in your recent RMM game). I don't see those here.
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Yes, but I'm talking about scum in general, and S_P in particular (since you are saying it is impossible for S_P to be scum for that reason). There is no statement you can make about scum in general without any one player being able to contradict it, should I never make any statement about what scum do ? Should you ?
The point is that you made a statement about scum in general and then later applied it to me explaining why I was still scummy for my treatment of gkrieg, when it was very clear that the general statement doesn't even apply to me.
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Right, so you're arguing with me about something that doesn't matter in the slightest just for the pleasure of annyoing me ?
vote: faust
You have to be aware how harmful to the game our arguments have been at this point. Yet you don't care, probably because you're scum.
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It does matter if the reason you have for finding me scummy is wrong.
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Ok, I'll recap it one last time for your fucking pleasure.
I don't think scum generally wants to lynch their partner. I then note that, though my main point is that I think S_P is scum, this reasoning doesn't clear you if it applies to you.
You're saying it doesn't apply to you because you love to bus your partners, or somethign.
End result : if it applies to you, you light be scum. If it doesn't, you might be scum.
Aaaaaand we've all lost 10 minutes of our time, thanks.
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Ok, I'll recap it one last time for your fucking pleasure.
I don't quite see yet how this will improve my satisfaction level in sexual matters, but thanks I guess.
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Vote Count 4.2
silverspawn (2): scott_pilgrim, Witherweaver
faust (2): Hydrad, Teproc
Hydrad (1): faust
Not Voting (2): EgorK, silverspawn
With 7 alive it takes 4 to lynch. Day Four ends at 7 pm forum time Wednesday, April 13th.
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Ok, I'll recap it one last time for your fucking pleasure.
I don't quite see yet how this will improve my satisfaction level in sexual matters, but thanks I guess.
Awaclusian.
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Oh, we still have 5 days. That's good.
I read gkrieg long post one more time, it reinforced my town read on faust and my slight scum on Hydrad, so here we go
Vote: Hydrad
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when you bus your partner, you do it because you want town cred. That's a pretty safe bet. Why would you ever want him to get lynched? Even if you bus him as hard as you can, you'd still prefer him not getting lynched. I have a hard time believing that faust thinks otherwise.
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Actually, I've been thinking about it and I don't think silverspawn as scum makes a lot of sense. Mostly for the reason faust is saying I'm not scum, which I feel like applies much better to silverspawn, since he was actively defending gkrieg yesterday, whereas I was mostly just late to the party. Actually, I'm not really convinced that the yuma NK implies that scum was planning on gkrieg dying the next day, because why would they want that? The argument I guess is just that scum was going to bus to look good, and that's worth sacrificing one of them to do it? I just don't buy that. But on the other hand, there's not really any other good explanation for it. Let's see:
1. Scum plans on trading gkrieg for yuma, thinking the 1-for-1 trade will work out in their favor
a. They think yuma is particularly worth killing for some reason, or
b. They think gkrieg is going down anyway, or
c. They think the towncred they get from bussing gkrieg is worth it
2. Scum doesn't consider the consequences of killing yuma
a. They just didn't think about how it would look, or
b. They didn't think of yuma as a likely NK candidate
Right now I think 2b is actually the most likely option. This whole time, we've been talking about it like yuma was an IC and a super obvious doc target and of course scum would have foreseen this and so shooting him and implicating the docs was a deliberate choice, but really there's just so many assumptions in that line of reasoning that any of them could have failed and not been incriminating. So actually, in that case, that would make silver look really scummy, because there IS reason for him to defend his partner there. So now I think I've convinced myself again. I'd like to go back and look for partner interactions...I know I keep saying that but it's because I know it's important but I'm too lazy to do it.
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when you bus your partner, you do it because you want town cred. That's a pretty safe bet. Why would you ever want him to get lynched? Even if you bus him as hard as you can, you'd still prefer him not getting lynched. I have a hard time believing that faust thinks otherwise.
You don't get any town cred unless your partner dies.
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Oh, we still have 5 days. That's good.
I read gkrieg long post one more time, it reinforced my town read on faust and my slight scum on Hydrad, so here we go
Vote: Hydrad
Oh thats unfortunate.
But maybe thats exactly what gkrieg wanted you to think! or your scum.
Question for you. Do you think you would point out WW's slip as scum or as town more?
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Oh, we still have 5 days. That's good.
I read gkrieg long post one more time, it reinforced my town read on faust and my slight scum on Hydrad, so here we go
Vote: Hydrad
Oh thats unfortunate.
But maybe thats exactly what gkrieg wanted you to think! or your scum.
Question for you. Do you think you would point out WW's slip as scum or as town more?
I had not encountered anything close enough as scum so can't really answer. I probably would weight possible town cred against the fact that slip is burried like 5 pages back and it is unlikely to be discovered before reread time. That of course if WW is town. Which you imply. Which scum knows for sure if he is town
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So this is too quiet...
We have 3 people with 2 votes. Could everyone do a preference list of these? Like this:
Hydrad > silver > faust
(I guess in my case the preference was obvious.)
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It's especially unacceptable for silver not to be voting.
I refuse a choice between those three, it's not like we have two wagons with 4 votes on them,anything could still happen if people bothered to do it. As is I'd rather no lynch than lynch silver, and I'm not too enthusiastic about a Hydrad lynch either. Those are actually my two top town reads, so...
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I refuse a choice between those three, it's not like we have two wagons with 4 votes on them,anything could still happen if people bothered to do it. As is I'd rather no lynch than lynch silver, and I'm not too enthusiastic about a Hydrad lynch either. Those are actually my two top town reads, so...
You may already have done so, but could you back those reads up, preferably by pointing me to towny posts they made?
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silverspawn relies on my recent reread of him. Hydrad, I'll admit I haven't reconsidered him because I don't think I've been wrong about Hydrad being town, not in a long time. I've been wrong about Hydrad being scum, but oh well.
Besides, my argument for Hydrad is one you already rejected when you voted for him : it's the idea that while he's not posting a lot, when he posts he's being constructive and you can feel a willingness to make the game move along. That's not something I've seen from scum!Hydrad, not in a consistent manner. If you want specific posts, let's take a look...
anyways I'm still fine with LT or RR. don't want teproc. thats basically it for now. I'm guessing something will happen to break the ice soon though as 4 days till Lynch? who knows.
So I'm pretty much going to be hammering RR here I think. I'll give it a bit before I do incase someone wants to say something or I dunno. But ya thats where I'm at right now.
Typical townie behavior here, being scared of hammering is not something I see scum!Hydrad doing.
So I'm pretty much going to be hammering RR here I think. I'll give it a bit before I do incase someone wants to say something or I dunno. But ya thats where I'm at right now.
Do not hammer me I can literally prove my innocence tomorrow
what? how in the world can you do that.
theres no PR powers that you will be able to say like oh hey I'm a cop and this is what I've done.
So if you had a way you would of brought it up by now right? I don't see how tomorrow can help.
Plus didn't you just post on like the last page of how you should be lynched over teproc? You just did like a full 180 out of nowhere.
Again, a willingness to work things out openly that strikes me as very townie coming from him. scum!Hydrad is more terse in that regard, tends to take other people's arguments rather than making his own I think.
And just in general, he doesn't have as many empty posts as he usually does, again something I have not seen scum!Hydrad do so far. Admittedly this is an analsis of Hydrad's meta that I've been open about for some time now, so he could have adapted, but I'll believe it when I see a flip or very damning interactions with flipped scum.
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You know what...? You may be right. Unfortunately, that means I have to vote: Teproc
While I think that Hydrad could have changed his style (especially with daychat and a competent partner), well that partner would have to be Teproc. And then it makes more sense to vote for Teproc I guess.
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It's especially unacceptable for silver not to be voting.
oh, that's true.
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vote: SP
And I think scott > faust > Hydrad > Egork > Teproc
With low confidence all around
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vote: SP
And I think scott > faust > Hydrad > Egork > Teproc
With low confidence all around
No... that list is not good...
Can you give me anything more than "vibes" or the like to say why Teproc is towny?
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I really wish I was a Gladiator right now.
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was on all wagons, active, confrontational, authentic
Posts like those:
well, I was first like 'mh VT :(' but then I had the neighborhood and that made me think 'maybe there are no powers' and then I read the setup.
Funnily enough, I did more or less the same but starting with "sweet, VT !".
I do think we should claim now.
Who's "we"? I'm all for scum claiming, yes.
What's with the agressivity ?
Your hammer is far and wide the scummiest thing that happened.
And again, what do you mean "we" should claim? Everyone should claim? Why?
What's scummy about it ? Aside from, you know, Joseph flipping town ?
and really nothing that makes me think scum
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Let's look at his voting history, I guess
--Day 1--
#168: Teproc votes Limetime
#194: Teproc votes gkrieg13
#200: Teproc unvotes
#215: Teproc votes Witherweaver
#363: Teproc votes scott_pilgrim
#618: Teproc votes Roadrunner7671
#680: Teproc votes Joseph2302
--Day 2 --
#757: Teproc votes scott_pilgrim
#759: Teproc votes Roadrunner7671
#770: Teproc votes faust
#858: Teproc votes scott_pilgrim
#932: Teproc votes Limetime
#1261: Teproc votes Roadrunner7671
-- Day 3 --
#1323: Teproc votes gkrieg13
#1388: Teproc votes gkrieg13
#1398: Teproc votes faust
#1435: Teproc votes gkrieg13
-- Day 4 --
#1489: Teproc votes faust
#1536: Teproc votes silverspawn
#1551: Teproc unvotes
#1563: Teproc votes scott_pilgrim
#1638: Teproc votes faust
Seems rather good. Decent variety, but vehemently for the scum lynch. Also decent targets.
Let's see SP's
-- Day 1 --
#326: scott_pilgrim votes Teproc
#662: scott_pilgrim votes Joseph2302
-- Day 2 --
#754: scott_pilgrim votes Teproc
#1157: scott_pilgrim votes Roadrunner7671
#1214: scott_pilgrim votes Teproc
-- Day 3 --
#1441: scott_pilgrim votes Witherweaver
-- Day 4 --
#1480: scott_pilgrim votes silverspawn
Yeah, I don't like that nearly as much. I guess if you think Teproc is scum it looks better. Otherwise, eh.
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was on all wagons, active, confrontational, authentic
The first three are no tells either way. I very much disagree on the last one. I also don't see how these quotes are examples of townieness... could you explain?
and really nothing that makes me think scum
So what is your take on the D1 hammer?
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Seems rather good. Decent variety, but vehemently for the scum lynch. Also decent targets.
I doubt that stripping all context away helps. That D3 scum lynch in particular. Teproc has not pushed Limetime before that.
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vote: SP
And I think scott > faust > Hydrad > Egork > Teproc
With low confidence all around
Also, is WW conf!town for you?
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Seems rather good. Decent variety, but vehemently for the scum lynch. Also decent targets.
I doubt that stripping all context away helps. That D3 scum lynch in particular. Teproc has not pushed Limetime before that.
Well that's a straight-up lie, I pushed Limetime day 2 when it became obvious that I was alone on S_P.
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Seems rather good. Decent variety, but vehemently for the scum lynch. Also decent targets.
I doubt that stripping all context away helps. That D3 scum lynch in particular. Teproc has not pushed Limetime before that.
Well that's a straight-up lie, I pushed Limetime day 2 when it became obvious that I was alone on S_P.
You're right, I forgot about that. Oh well. I think I laid out how I feel about that push earlier.
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Noone has yet responded to this:
Teproc's D2 starts with a lot of defending naturally. This post is relevant:
RR and S_P are by far my preferred lynches here... then faust and maybe Limetime. Don't feel strongly one way or the other about WW or EgorK.
And, only a little later, this:
Gotta stop trying to wagon town, yuma. It's against your wincon !
On a similar note, as no one else seems to be interested in lynching obvscum S_P, let's go with vote: Limetime
PPE : I never voted RR ? Huh. I might. I don't know. It feels like flipping a coin.
I also thought the wagons were pretty similar (including me being on both), which makes me a little doubtful the Joseph wagon was scum deflecting away from RR.
That just doesn't fit.
How does that make sense as town?
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I changed my mind, I think someone (might have been you actually) brought up the daychat thing which had escaped my mind for a second, and made LImetime more suspicious to me than he had been previously. And I think I had cooled a bit on RR because the wagon seemed a bit easy (not a disqualifying thing, but doesn't inspire tremendous confidence either).
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Also, contradictions are traditionally townie, so unless you think scum!me has a meta of contradicting himself more, I don't see what that's about anyway.
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Also, contradictions are traditionally townie, so unless you think scum!me has a meta of contradicting himself more, I don't see what that's about anyway.
Oh come on. YOu can change your mind, but changing your mind within 12 hours and wihtout a given reasoning and from a lynch that you prefer "by far" to someone else... I don't think that fits town!you, no.
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Considering how this day is going, I'm warming up to a Neighborhood claim.
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What makes me more confident about my reads is the fact that nobody sheeps me. I feel that if I was actually wrong, scum would love to do that.
Of course, this argument requires you to trust that I am town.
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Also, is WW conf!town for you?
I forgot WW. No, defintiely not. Put him either after scott or after you.
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was on all wagons, active, confrontational, authentic
The first three are no tells either way.
I disagree. Active, okay, not a tell. On all wagons though-- yeah, that's what active town often does. Help to get lynches through. Active scum is more likely to stay off lynches to get town cred. And confrontational, I think that's a town tell for Teproc specifically.
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So what is your take on the D1 hammer?
Well it certainly wasn't good, but I don't think it's a huge scum tell. Is there any evidence that scum!Teproc is more likely to hammer town than town!Teproc?
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What makes me more confident about my reads is the fact that nobody sheeps me. I feel that if I was actually wrong, scum would love to do that.
If reads are really better when no-one agrees, then we've come to a strange place.
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WW, Hydrad, S_P, we need you to step it up here.
I can switch to S_P if that's the way it goes, but we're far from lynching and I don't see why we should wait any longer than we already have.
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EgorK, now that faust has seen the light on Hydrad, will you ?
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EgorK, now that faust has seen the light on Hydrad, will you ?
I would do Hydrad, but I'm wary about his treatment of Limetime/Gkrieg.
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It really annoys me that I can't quote this in the out of context thread, because it's beautiful, and I won't remember to dig it out when the game is over.
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Thanks~
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Only scum would be so self-conscious about the rules!
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I'll remember it.
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If we are doing wanna lynch kinda thing. Heres mine. Although I feel like I just said this a bit ago.
Faust > egork > SS > S_P > Teproc.
WW I don't want to lynch today as I feel like if he is town he might get killed tonight or something. But If I did lynch him he would be behind egork.
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Why is Egork so high?
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Why is Egork so high?
POE basically.
I have towny reads on most other people. Not on egork.
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How does everyone feel about neighborhood claiming?
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Silverspawn reread
Day 1
Starts with math (simulations)
Makes a not-PGO slip (suggests that the PGO give their gun to the IC from what I understand, which isn’t how it works). It’s worth noting that this isn’t really a hard slip, it’s possible he could have thought that even as a PGO, just less likely.
Votes RR, no explanation
WW questions RR’s joke claim; silver is the first to vote him and call it a scum slip
Explains why he thinks WW’s thing was a scum slip. I don’t agree with his reasoning and didn’t at the time, though that doesn’t make him scum.
Increases scum read on WW
Notices scum has daychat, votes Limetime. I tried to look for context but I have literally no idea how those two things are related. Oh wait he clarifies it in the next two posts. I guess this was after WW’s town slip.
Says he thinks the slip is huge by D1 standards, then votes for me
Calls Teproc votes scummy
Votes RR
Doesn’t understand faust’s case on him
Unvotes RR at L-1
Moves from top scum read on faust to townier on him, then explains that he was going to wait until D2 to make a case, if faust doesn’t get killed N1. This seems like a strange thing to do as town, but also a strange thing to say as scum.
Votes for me again
Votes for Joseph
Says Joseph’s wagon is scummy, but Joseph is scummier
Day 2
Calls Teproc’s hammer anti-town
Says he doesn’t want to lynch Teproc after his (Teproc’s) last few posts
Gut scum read on faust
This is interesting. “I might want to lynch the third doctor... or somene who's been flying under the radar. Not Teproc, SP, you, or Limetime.” Limetime later claims third doc, which SS would have known if he were scum. So this could be a town slip, or a very sneaky fake town slip, since we would only be able to pick up on it in a reread.
Says Teproc’s defense reads frustrated town, votes WW
Says me/Yuma are towny, RR is scummy
Says WW’s second slip sounds constructed
Says EgorK pointing out WW’s slip is townier than the slip itself, unless they’re partners. (I totally agree with this BTW.)
I get the impression from reading his posts that he was pretty convinced RR was scum D2. Or else he felt like he said that earlier and needed to be consistent.
Names e as runner-up
Strong town read on Teproc
Day 3
[Aside because I just noticed this: EgorK put gkrieg to L-1 unannounced, and there were good reasons for other people to put their votes on gkrieg too. Is that something scum ever does to a partner?]
Really trying to direct people away from the gkrieg wagon.
Rereads faust, continues finding him scummy.
And that’s pretty much all of D3…just expressing continued disapproval of the gkrieg wagon and saying faust is scummy.
Day 4
Openly agrees with the arguments being made against him
Goes back and rereads WW’s slip
Votes for me
Argues about EgorK pointing out WW’s slip
Unvotes me
Votes for me again
Compares my and Teproc’s voting history
Well really I didn’t find much of interest, except rereading his D3 really makes me feel more confident about my vote. The most interesting thing was that post D2 where he implied Limetime was not a doctor…this seems too subtle to me to come from scum, but it’s not totally unbelievable.
So I think I need to think about his D3 because without that I’d probably be leaning town on him, just from that one post and the way he’s defended himself today (which is, he hasn’t). But man his D3 looks bad. The whole day is just deflecting from gkrieg and pushing faust. If SS flips scum faust is probably town because I don’t think scum tries to defend one partner by bussing their other partner, especially when that first partner has a lot going against him. But that’s not relevant for now. The big question I think is whether his D3 is even reasonable coming from town. I mean it really comes down to how likely you are to play that way as town vs. as scum. Because I don’t see much reason to defend gkrieg there as town. Did he even give any reasons for gkrieg not being scum, besides the wagon was going too fast? There’s a lot of good reasons to vote him, silverspawn knows it, so instead of arguing against those reasons, he focuses on all the reasons faust must be scum.
The only things that’s bothering me about it is I feel like even by his first post of the day, it was already looking pretty bad for gkrieg, and that’s the point where you consider just bussing. But I guess it’s not uncommon for someone to take heat early on in the day and then die down later on. And then there’s also a question of why not redirect to WW? It would have been easy for him to say “yeah a doctor is scum, but it’s WW and not gkrieg”. I guess he could have been concerned about being consistent with things he said earlier about WW, or WW could be his partner, or maybe he thought it would be incriminating for gkrieg the next day if WW got lynched.
Well overall I don’t feel as good about a SS lynch as I did before. But to be honest there’s not really any lynch I feel better about. Maybe Teproc…anyone else I feel like I’m just shooting in the dark. Except EgorK I think is towny because of his pointing out WW’s town slip and also the thing I put above from D3. I mean I guess a gkrieg/EgorK/WW team is possible with the docs coordinating with to make their NK’s go through but that’s more like a conspiracy theory. The thing is I'm going to be super mad if we don't lynch silverspawn and he turns out to be scum, whereas I don't feel that way about anyone else.
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So what is your take on the D1 hammer?
Well it certainly wasn't good, but I don't think it's a huge scum tell. Is there any evidence that scum!Teproc is more likely to hammer town than town!Teproc?
I could vote you for just that you know. Because again you're simply boiling this down to "well he hammered town" when the circumstances are actually a lot more damning than that.
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Maybe Teproc…anyone else I feel like I’m just shooting in the dark.
Yes, let's lynch Teproc. We should have done so a long time ago.
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How does everyone feel about neighborhood claiming?
I'm fine with it.
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How does everyone feel about neighborhood claiming?
Is there any upside ?
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So what is your take on the D1 hammer?
Well it certainly wasn't good, but I don't think it's a huge scum tell. Is there any evidence that scum!Teproc is more likely to hammer town than town!Teproc?
I could vote you for just that you know. Because again you're simply boiling this down to "well he hammered town" when the circumstances are actually a lot more damning than that.
You're right, it's very damning that I hammered someone who had just done something extremely anti-town by softclaiming. Truly inacceptable, who am I to hammer people who seem very likely to be scum ?
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Can you explain why it's anti-town for scum to soft claim in Joseph's position? I get why it's bad for town to soft claim there, but if you thought it made Joseph more likely to be scum, then you also have to think it wasn't bad for scum to soft claim. I don't see any upside for scum to do that...their partners already know what QT they're in, so all it does is give town extra info.
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I don't get you. How can both of those be true ?
a) My hammer is scummy because omg we shouldn't lynch people softclaiming doctors
b) Softclaiming doctor ? Why would scum do that ?
The better question is : why would town do that ? The only reason was survival, and why town obviously wants to survive too, I though scum!Joseph was a lot more likely to do something clearly anti-town for that than town!Joseph. I was wrong.
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Why soft claiming doctor is clearly antitown?
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How does everyone feel about neighborhood claiming?
Is there any upside ?
Well yes. We know from which neighborhoods scum killed; that would give us some indication as to which neighborhoods scum is in (I wouldn't be surprised if they tried to made it so that they control one of the neighborhoods if possible). Since I was quite surprised by the e kill, it could give us some indication for why that happened.
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Why soft claiming doctor is clearly antitown?
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Rereading Hydrad. He's a little bit too nonchalant for scum Hydrad. Scum!Hydrad is more... forced nonchalant. Moving lower on my preferences.
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I still like Silverspawn, despite the points brought up.
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Why soft claiming doctor is clearly antitown?
Are we seriously going to do this again ? Softclaiming is a purely survivalist move that doesn't commit you to anything and reveals a lot to scum, making the whole decision we collectively made not to claim on day 1* pointless. I thought town!Joseph in that situation would either straight-up claim or not say anything at all, but softclaiming seemed like a 99% scum move to me. Clearly, I was wrong, but it still baffles me that this isn't obvious to everyone, softclaiming in that situation is so obviously the most anti-town thing you could do...
*and I know you don't think that's true but I don't what to tell you : the fact is that no one else claimed after lenghty discussion on the subject
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Why soft claiming doctor is clearly antitown?
Are we seriously going to do this again ? Softclaiming is a purely survivalist move that doesn't commit you to anything and reveals a lot to scum, making the whole decision we collectively made not to claim on day 1* pointless. I thought town!Joseph in that situation would either straight-up claim or not say anything at all, but softclaiming seemed like a 99% scum move to me. Clearly, I was wrong, but it still baffles me that this isn't obvious to everyone, softclaiming in that situation is so obviously the most anti-town thing you could do...
*and I know you don't think that's true but I don't what to tell you : the fact is that no one else claimed after lenghty discussion on the subject
So, to summarize, the only argument is that softclaiming is purely survivalist move. Straight claiming is survivalist as well, although in both this cases doctors can still heal that night
Next you say no one else claimed D1. First I believe RR claimed (I think it was D1). Second, no other doctor was in danger of being lynched I believe
Soft claim was obvious enough that if he was not doctor any doctor would probably just hammer.
TLDR your hammer may not be that scummy, but you justification is. Vote: Teproc
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You act as if softclaiming was the same thing as claiming. It's not. I wouldn't have hammered Joseph had he straight-up claimed.
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Also, you should maybe take a look at my interactions with flipped scum before voting for me (or anyone). That is obviously more important than anything else.
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Also, you should maybe take a look at my interactions with flipped scum before voting for me (or anyone). That is obviously more important than anything else.
I disagree with that, I think interactions tend to be overvalued. Scum has gotten quite good at fabricating them, even more so with daytalk. That could easily be misleading.
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You act as if softclaiming was the same thing as claiming. It's not. I wouldn't have hammered Joseph had he straight-up claimed.
How is it different?
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To be clear : maybe you'll find those scummy still (faust apparently did), but at least you wouldn't be lynching me for the worst reason I've ever heard in the history of mafia, that'd be nice.
PPE : You've gotta be kidding me.
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You act as if softclaiming was the same thing as claiming. It's not. I wouldn't have hammered Joseph had he straight-up claimed.
How is it different?
Please, everyone, look at this. Is this town!faust ?
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Still no opinions on neighbborhood stuff?
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To be clear : maybe you'll find those scummy still (faust apparently did), but at least you wouldn't be lynching me for the worst reason I've ever heard in the history of mafia, that'd be nice.
PPE : You've gotta be kidding me.
No, I think we just have a strong theoretical disagreement.
Also it's different if you're specifically talking about wagons. They're important. But how often you communicated to other scum, or how often you disagreed - I think that isn't that important anymore, at this point.
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Still no opinions on neighbborhood stuff?
Tentatively against it.
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No. I'll claim if others do, but I'm not particularly convinced by your reasoning.
Especially because you're scum ! I'm serious people : look at faust today. Yeah yeah there's rereads and stuff, but there's a lot of trying to wind me up. faust knows as well as I do that our continued fights are anti-town, because they completely paralyze discussion, yet faust keep stoking the fire, because... he's scum.
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To be clear : maybe you'll find those scummy still (faust apparently did), but at least you wouldn't be lynching me for the worst reason I've ever heard in the history of mafia, that'd be nice.
PPE : You've gotta be kidding me.
No, I think we just have a strong theoretical disagreement.
Also it's different if you're specifically talking about wagons. They're important. But how often you communicated to other scum, or how often you disagreed - I think that isn't that important anymore, at this point.
That PPE was not adressed to you. i do think you're wrong on that though. Interactions are still the hardest thing to do as scum, for everyone.
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No. I'll claim if others do, but I'm not particularly convinced by your reasoning.
Especially because you're scum ! I'm serious people : look at faust today. Yeah yeah there's rereads and stuff, but there's a lot of trying to wind me up. faust knows as well as I do that our continued fights are anti-town, because they completely paralyze discussion, yet faust keep stoking the fire, because... he's scum.
No; it's because you're scum. Plus you're stoking the fire as much as I do.
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Vote Count 4.3
silverspawn (2): scott_pilgrim, Witherweaver
faust (2): Hydrad, Teproc
Teproc (2): faust, EgorK
scott_pilgirm (1): silverspawn
With 7 alive it takes 4 to lynch. Day Four ends at 7 pm forum time Wednesday, April 13th.
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No. I'll claim if others do, but I'm not particularly convinced by your reasoning.
Especially because you're scum ! I'm serious people : look at faust today. Yeah yeah there's rereads and stuff, but there's a lot of trying to wind me up. faust knows as well as I do that our continued fights are anti-town, because they completely paralyze discussion, yet faust keep stoking the fire, because... he's scum.
No; it's because you're scum. Plus you're stoking the fire as much as I do.
I'll let others be the judge of that, but wow.
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You act as if softclaiming was the same thing as claiming. It's not. I wouldn't have hammered Joseph had he straight-up claimed.
How is it different?
Please, everyone, look at this. Is this town!faust ?
I'd appreciate it if you could just answer the question the way you would explain it to someone who plays mafia for the first time.
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faust knows as well as I do that our continued fights are anti-town
I really don't know about that
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You act as if softclaiming was the same thing as claiming. It's not. I wouldn't have hammered Joseph had he straight-up claimed.
How is it different?
I don't see this as particularly outrageous from faust, to be frank. It's a legit question.
of course there are differences, but the question seems to be more like what makes softlcaiming so much worse in this case.
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You act as if softclaiming was the same thing as claiming. It's not. I wouldn't have hammered Joseph had he straight-up claimed.
How is it different?
Please, everyone, look at this. Is this town!faust ?
I'd appreciate it if you could just answer the question the way you would explain it to someone who plays mafia for the first time.
I'm not interested in talking to you anymore. If you're town... I don't even know what to tell you, but you've never played a worse game of mafia in your life. Since I don't believe you're that awful a player, I'm going to assume you're scum nad it is therefore mostly pointless for me to talk to you.
PPE : Not only is the question unbelievably dumb, the implied question you're talking about is one I've answer four to five times already in this game.
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you've never played a worse game of mafia in your life
Wow.
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you've never played a worse game of mafia in your life
Wow.
I mean wow.I mean, that includes this game (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9840.0).
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PPE : Not only is the question unbelievably dumb, the implied question you're talking about is one I've answer four to five times already in this game.
Credit were credit is due
It was a softclaim, wasn't it ? Softclaims are the worst.
We had agreed not to claim, so Joseph's softclaim was threatening to break the only upside we had from not claiming, which was that scum didn't control our PRs if they didn't know who had which roles. So Joseph was doing this out of pure self-preservation, which is fine, but also trying to appear as if he was not doing that (because he was softclaiming rather than actualclaiming, which is very scummy : it's trying to not get lynched, breaking town consensus without having to be held accountable for it.
Softclaiming is scummy, yes... because it's plainly anti-town in every way imaginable and has only one purpose which is survival ? Town wants to survive too, obviously, but scum wants it more and is more ready to go against consensus to do it.
And yes, Joseph's statement was a softclaim that probably meant he was a Doctor. It was also super scummy, precisely because it was a softclaim and those are the worst : they're all self-preservation with no clarity for town.
Do I really need to explain why his softclaim was scummy as hell ? Or is that somehow not relevant because I turned out to be wrong ?
Those might not even be all
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But even though you talked a lot about it, I'm still not sure if the argument necessarily is sound. He could have soft claimed precisely because he didn't want to give scum additional information. In fact, given that he flipped town, that's probably what he did. I don't think there's a consensus on softclaims being horrible.
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PPE : Not only is the question unbelievably dumb, the implied question you're talking about is one I've answer four to five times already in this game.
Credit were credit is due
It was a softclaim, wasn't it ? Softclaims are the worst.
We had agreed not to claim, so Joseph's softclaim was threatening to break the only upside we had from not claiming, which was that scum didn't control our PRs if they didn't know who had which roles. So Joseph was doing this out of pure self-preservation, which is fine, but also trying to appear as if he was not doing that (because he was softclaiming rather than actualclaiming, which is very scummy : it's trying to not get lynched, breaking town consensus without having to be held accountable for it.
Softclaiming is scummy, yes... because it's plainly anti-town in every way imaginable and has only one purpose which is survival ? Town wants to survive too, obviously, but scum wants it more and is more ready to go against consensus to do it.
And yes, Joseph's statement was a softclaim that probably meant he was a Doctor. It was also super scummy, precisely because it was a softclaim and those are the worst : they're all self-preservation with no clarity for town.
Do I really need to explain why his softclaim was scummy as hell ? Or is that somehow not relevant because I turned out to be wrong ?
Those might not even be all
Right. THough most of these work just as well if you replace "softclaim" by "claim". I don't get how scum benefits from softclaiming.
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But even though I don't really agree with you, I still think it makes you town; the frustration about soft claims and receiving scrutiny for the hammer is clearly real. Don't you see that?
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last you = everyone who thinks Teproc is scum
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But even though I don't really agree with you, I still think it makes you town; the frustration about soft claims and receiving scrutiny for the hammer is clearly real. Don't you see that?
I don't see that at all because it doesn't fit Teproc's meta very well.
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But even though I don't really agree with you, I still think it makes you town; the frustration about soft claims and receiving scrutiny for the hammer is clearly real. Don't you see that?
I don't see that at all because it doesn't fit Teproc's meta very well.
I'm not sure of this.
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I don't have any issue with claiming neighborhoods.
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I don't get you. How can both of those be true ?
a) My hammer is scummy because omg we shouldn't lynch people softclaiming doctors
b) Softclaiming doctor ? Why would scum do that ?
The better question is : why would town do that ? The only reason was survival, and why town obviously wants to survive too, I though scum!Joseph was a lot more likely to do something clearly anti-town for that than town!Joseph. I was wrong.
How can both of what be true? The second one was a question...
Over and over again you keep saying how Joseph must have been scum because he soft claimed there, and your reasoning is that town wouldn't have soft claimed there. Not only do I think town soft claiming there is not the most unreasonable thing ever (that's easier to say after he flipped town I guess), but I'm not convince it's any more unreasonable than scum soft claiming there.
You're saying you thought Joseph was scummy because he soft claimed. That means that you think scum is more likely to do that than town. You've said why town is unlikely to do that, but the thing is, I think scum is at least as unlikely to do that. So I'm asking you, what is the benefit of scum soft claiming there?
I'm also curious how it's so much scummier than hard claiming. Calling everyone else an idiot for not getting it isn't helping you. I would think a soft claim is townier because it means that you're trying to hide info from scum; a hard claim doesn't hide anything, which is scummy, because scum doesn't need to hide anything. Scum only cares about survival, not about hiding info from scum, so they would just claim in Joseph's position.
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I'll refer you to my five thousand previous posts on the subject. You all disagree, I get it, but I've stated my position enough. If you can't be bothered to read my posts, that's your problem.
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To put it another way : if you feel I haven't answered satisfactorily, well tough luck. That's all I'm saying on the subject, feel free to lynch me for it, but it's not worth the aggravation.
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Well it's going to be your problem if it makes me vote for you, which I really want to now...
I read the posts silverspawn quoted and didn't really find an answer, I guess I could go back and reread all of your posts from D2. I just didn't think those would be hard questions...I feel like I'm doing a lot more work trying to get an answer from you than you would have had to do by just answering me in the first place.
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Poor you.
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vote: Teproc
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Actually unvote, this is not a good way of finding scum, but it is extremely annoying.
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Oh boy. I'm feeling for teproc right now. Even if he's scum I'd be annoyed as him.
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A little less then 35 hours until deadline, if I can count (which I usually can't)
I think it would be a good idea if everyone would reiterate their cases on people they are voting. Though I have to go now, so would do it (hopefully) this evening
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okay, vote: faust L-1
Would prefer SP but this is okay
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okay, vote: faust L-1
Would prefer SP but this is okay
No it's not. What's the case on me? There is none and that is why nobody was yet able to make one.
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Though if you do lynch me, all I beg of you is to lynch Teproc tomorrow.
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I think it would be a good idea if everyone would reiterate their cases on people they are voting. Though I have to go now, so would do it (hopefully) this evening
Short version:
- Teproc is generally out of character here. Usually he's way more levelheaded.
- the D1 hammer was scummy enough, and Teproc's reaction to it doesn't make it better.
- the way he jumped on Limetime D2 looks very much like scum deciding to start bussing.
- PoE: WW, Egor, scott are all pretty townie. silver and Hydrad to an extent.
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I think it would be a good idea if everyone would reiterate their cases on people they are voting. Though I have to go now, so would do it (hopefully) this evening
Short version:
- Teproc is generally out of character here. Usually he's way more levelheaded.
- the D1 hammer was scummy enough, and Teproc's reaction to it doesn't make it better.
- the way he jumped on Limetime D2 looks very much like scum deciding to start bussing.
- PoE: WW, Egor, scott are all pretty townie. silver and Hydrad to an extent.
Although I still think Teproc is the best lynch your first point I am not sure about. After all he subbed out of Cupcake after altercation with you and yuma, if I recall correctly
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I think it would be a good idea if everyone would reiterate their cases on people they are voting. Though I have to go now, so would do it (hopefully) this evening
Short version:
- Teproc is generally out of character here. Usually he's way more levelheaded.
- the D1 hammer was scummy enough, and Teproc's reaction to it doesn't make it better.
- the way he jumped on Limetime D2 looks very much like scum deciding to start bussing.
- PoE: WW, Egor, scott are all pretty townie. silver and Hydrad to an extent.
Although I still think Teproc is the best lynch your first point I am not sure about. After all he subbed out of Cupcake after altercation with you and yuma, if I recall correctly
He did, but that game is actually my point of reference here. If you compare his posts there to what he does here, it just feels completely different.
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I'd rather lynch SS, or SP.
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I'd rather lynch SS, or SP.
Which one of Teproc/me would you prefer?
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I'd rather lynch SS, or SP.
Which one of Teproc/me would you prefer?
You have both gotten townier for me. I can't really pick one there.
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If it has to be you v. Teproc I'll have to lookback to see what scum said about both of you.
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back to vote: SP then. Teproc was supportive of him. WW said he prefers him. faust should prefer him over himself. I prefer him. Let's lynch SP. I could see him being scum irregardless of faust's alignment
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back to vote: SP then. Teproc was supportive of him. WW said he prefers him. faust should prefer him over himself. I prefer him. Let's lynch SP. I could see him being scum irregardless of faust's alignment
I won't lynch scott today.
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So since Teproc couldn't be bothered to spend 1 minute answering my question, I just spent the last 30 minutes looking for an answer. Here is everything he said about the soft claim on D2:
And yes, Joseph's statement was a softclaim that probably meant he was a Doctor. It was also super scummy, precisely because it was a softclaim and those are the worst : they're all self-preservation with no clarity for town.
Do I really need to explain why his softclaim was scummy as hell ? Or is that somehow not relevant because I turned out to be wrong ?
PPE : We had agreed not to claim, so Joseph's softclaim was threatening to break the only upside we had from not claiming, which was that scum didn't control our PRs if they didn't know who had which roles. So Joseph was doing this out of pure self-preservation, which is fine, but also trying to appear as if he was not doing that (because he was softclaiming rather than actualclaiming, which is very scummy : it's trying to not get lynched, breaking town consensus without having to be held accountable for it.
It was a softclaim, wasn't it ? Softclaims are the worst.
Softclaiming is scummy, yes... because it's plainly anti-town in every way imaginable and has only one purpose which is survival ? Town wants to survive too, obviously, but scum wants it more and is more ready to go against consensus to do it.
You don't believe scum never softclaimed ever ? Beside I wasn't arguing that it's scummy is in a vacuum, because you know, nothing is.
Well that's... crazy. Of course scum has softclaimed, softclaims happen in every game, just by sheer numbers it must have happened.
And again I wasn't arguing it was scumy in a vacuum (nothing is), I was saying softclaiming in this game is very scummy, but since I've explained that about 5 times this day alone I'm guessing you're not interested in taht argument.
So I guess he does sort of indirectly answer it, by saying soft claiming is survivalist, and wanting to survive is apparently scummy. Of course this is completely ridiculous; if he wanted to survive, he would have just claimed. The only reason to soft claim is to hide info from scum, which scum doesn't need to do. But at this point I'm not even expecting to get a response. I think Teproc has reached a point where he's realized how nonsensical his justification of his hammer is, and he's just trying to direct us away from that issue. The funny thing is, I don't think he needed to rationalize it at all, if he had just said he thought Joseph was scummy and left it at that, well he still would have had other issues to deal with, but at least he wouldn't have gotten himself into all of this mess. But scum feels the need to justify everything they do, and his justification in this case was just bad.
I still like the case on silverspawn, but I don't think that's going to happen. Lynching faust seems like a mistake to me...lynching me is definitely a mistake. But I would certainly be happy with a Teproc lynch.
vote: Teproc This might be L-1
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vote: Teproc This might be L-1
Yeah this is L-1
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Seems like I'll get my wish after all.
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Vote: Scott Pilgrim
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Fun fact, this was L-1 early Day 2:
Vote: teproc for hammering
Everything before this point was on RR and Egor; didn't actually say anything about anyone else. I'm not so sure this is a bussy from Limetime.
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And Gkrieg's first going into things:
I think I'm going to start with RR, Teproc, and Hydrad considering we are close to deadline.
Well, that's a bit worse for Teproc, with the standard "one partner in the middle of a list of three" that scum is inclined to do. Does indicate Hydrad is more likely town if Teproc is scum.
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For reference (this is Limetime!Gkrieg):
Teproc D1:
Votes for the IC :'(
Is in favor of not claiming anything. I think doctors definitely should have claimed at L-1
Talks a lot about WW's slip thing. I didn't really even know this was going on when reading RR.
Votes for s_p
keeps pushing his case for s_p
This post is golden (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=14877.msg576321#msg576321)
Says he could go for an RR lynch
while leaving his vote on s_p, he says that e is town, faust is scummy, RR is scummier.
gives more reads here (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=14877.msg577721#msg577721)
votes for RR
desires to lynch Joseph
Then he hammers Joseph (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=14877.msg578197#msg578197)
D2:
His reaction to his hammer and everyone else's reaction. I'll comment on this down below
This post seems strange to me. Why would Joseph claim his partners in his QT? Wouldn't his scum partners already know who else was in the QT? (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=14877.msg579325#msg579325)
His D2 he gets super defensive (I mean he is the leading lynch for a few IRL days.
This post just seems weird too. I guess he is implying that he knows who scum is because of his wagon? (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=14877.msg579468#msg579468)
His L-1 post is pretty null to me.
Starts gunning for s_p again.
He has a sudden change of heart in claiming.
Gives more reads. This reads list looks townie to me.
votes limetime
He talks again about his vote. I think it was an awful vote, but he keeps ensuring that it wasn't a bad vote. (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=14877.msg580347#msg580347)
Ok so after rereading, I think this is a good wagon. Interestingly, he keeps defending his hammer on Joseph. I think that is by far the scummiest thing he has going for him. He is giving good reads and helping the game move along. I think I want to wait until a later day to lynch him, because he is being helpful right now.
I would lynch here today if we can't decide on an RR lynch.
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So he never actually does go for Teproc:
Roadrunner7671 has been lynched! He was a Vanilla Townie!
Final Vote Count
Teproc (5): faust, scott_pilgrim, Roadrunner7671, yuma, Witherweaver
Roadrunner7671 (6): silverspawn, EgorK, gkrieg13, 2.71828, Teproc, Hydrad
With 11 players alive, it took 6 to lynch. Night Two begins now and ends at 7 am forum time Wednesday, March 30. Deadline for Neighborhood actions is 7 am forum time, Tuesday March 29th.
He makes a point of saying again that he would do Teproc or RR:
I would go for RR. I would also vote for Teproc, but I'm not feeling the e lynch
This looks a bit worse for Teproc, as this seems to be reasonable partner play.
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Gkrieg says a lot of nothing about Faust, Silverspawn, Scott. He does a brief Hydrad reread:
Hydrad D1:
His theory post is pretty good. Seems insightful.
votes RR
says s_p is town
votes Joseph and puts him at L-1
D2:
This post is pretty townie. He gives reads and stuff (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=14877.msg579589#msg579589)
votes limetime. Thinks we should kill from the doctors. I don't think we should at all!
Another good post (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=14877.msg580390#msg580390)
He defends (kind of) himself with his growing wagon.
I get a townie vibe from Hydrad. I feel like he is contributing to the game more than I have seen Hydrad do in the past.
I don't think I would vote for him today.
I'm a little dubious about scum saying this about partner!Hydrad.
So if scum is in {Faust, Scott, Silver}, then Limetime/Gkrieg had... about zero interaction and zero things to say about both their partners? That is a bit unlikely.
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Unvote
What's the count and how much time do we have?
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Oh, that was only Gkrieg up to the end of Day <whenever we lynched RR>.
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Right, he says some more things on D3:
Is there any harm to claiming actions? Roleblocking and Motion Detecting targets give pseudo clearance to some people. Is this LyLo?
Claiming action means claiming neighborhoods (to ane extent), so yes there is harm.
Roleblocking and Motion Detecting only give any sort of clearing if scum is not part of that neighborhood.
It's not LyLo.
scum can also just avoid the PGO neighborhood if we all claim. But I guess the other PRs would also avoid that neighborhood at that point? Actually PGO isn't very good for town is it.
I like WW's analysis of things. I still don't think I should be counted as scummy for being in the doctor neighborhood. I think there are a few other explanations for scum killing yuma that are just as likely.
I think ss and s_p come off the scummiest from WW's reread, but I will go and reread D2 now.
I remember thinking this was odd, because I really didn't provide much content on my 'reread'; If I recall, I just stated a few things I was thinking.
There's some various conversation between him and Faust, him and Teproc.
Right, and then an actual post:
So from rereading the beginning of D2, I think it is very possible that Teproc and faust are scum partners. They have this big argument about how Teproc's hammer is scummy. I think they were also some of the few people who noticed Joseph's soft claim of doctor.
scum!Teproc would want to hammer so they could kill the wonderful IC we had, but would know he would get flak for it D2. faust is trying to be one of the first people on that wagon, to get towncred.
Faust's tone in that fight sounds like he knows Teproc is scum, which he would if they were partners.
Also feeling very scummy on Hydrad.
faust also gets the probability of scum being in the doc neighborhood wrong I think. It can't really be 50%, because that would mean that each neighborhood has a 50% chance of scum being in it, which doesn't seem right to me.
s_p also advocates for a lynch from the doc neighborhood.
Teproc is against lynching from the doc neighborhood.
Hydrad also for lynching from the doctors
faust switches his vote to RR for a policy lynch for being annoying.
After a while goes back to voting for Teproc
D2 finishes with RR getting lynched
At the start of D3, up until now, they both seem very buddy, buddy, like nothing happened yesterday. Everyone seems to have forgotten about Teproc.
They then have a little tussle a couple of pages ago.
vote: faust
From this reread, I think faust and Teproc are scum. I get townie reads from WW, EgorK, Hydrad. Pretty null on others.
Also from my reread, I didn't know faust helped design this game.
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Okay, we have until 7PM tomorrow, so about 25 hours.
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Anyone have thoughts on likelihood of Teproc/Silverspawn team?
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Anyone have thoughts on likelihood of Teproc/Silverspawn team?
Definitely possible just from what I remember. I could reread for partner interactions tomorrow I think. I mean, I'm mostly looking at scum in Hydrad/Teproc/silver anyway.
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Anyone have thoughts on likelihood of Teproc/Silverspawn team?
Definitely possible just from what I remember. I could reread for partner interactions tomorrow I think. I mean, I'm mostly looking at scum in Hydrad/Teproc/silver anyway.
I don't think it's Hydrad.
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I don't think it's Teproc. Man, if it's Teproc, I'm having an easy record of the most inaccurate reads ever. But it can't be.
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Look's like we're doing the survival lynch again. It's a bit better this time, but still.
vote: SP
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I guess it's not even clear that S_P is that likely to happen, don't think Hydrad or EgorK were that excited in it.
Love that newbie scum putting me at L-1 five hours into day 2 is apparently not relevant to my alignment.
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Also, yeah, I'm definitely going to be in this mess as scum!me. At least S_P has the excuse of not knowing me as scum, but faust ? Yeah right.
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One of faust's argument for me being scum is "he's different this game". From all my other games. How does that make me scum again ?
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And also, does that strike you as a town!faust type of argument ?
No. No it doesn't.
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Anyone have thoughts on likelihood of Teproc/Silverspawn team?
unlikely
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this is not rational&smart!SP talking, this is scum!SP talking. Teproc is frustrated because he's being asked about something he answered 7 times already, and SP turns it around to say that Teproc has "reached a point where he's realized how nonsensical his justification of his hammer is, and he's just trying to direct us away from that issue." Come on.
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so... I won't be here for the deadline I don't think. I think SP is the best place to leave my vote at.
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this is not rational&smart!SP talking, this is scum!SP talking. Teproc is frustrated because he's being asked about something he answered 7 times already, and SP turns it around to say that Teproc has "reached a point where he's realized how nonsensical his justification of his hammer is, and he's just trying to direct us away from that issue." Come on.
1. I think it's a mistake to assume that scum!scott is not rational and smart for some reason.
2. I totally agree with what scott said. I guess I get to be scum for that too. But you won't convince me with this.
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So we have what, both scott and Teproc at L-1, and Hydrad as a tiebreaker? Yuck.
Question? Why are Teproc and silver moving away from me and to scott? Answer: because they know that they have WW's support on that lynch.
WW, I would ask you to unvote. At least so I can reread Teproc/silver. Hydrad, I would ask you to not hammer.
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So we have what, both scott and Teproc at L-1, and Hydrad as a tiebreaker? Yuck.
Question? Why are Teproc and silver moving away from me and to scott? Answer: because they know that they have WW's support on that lynch.
WW, I would ask you to unvote. At least so I can reread Teproc/silver. Hydrad, I would ask you to not hammer.
Yes, genius. I love how you act as if it was a dirty little secreg when I've plainky acklonewdged it, but I guess that would require reading whole posts.
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So we have what, both scott and Teproc at L-1, and Hydrad as a tiebreaker? Yuck.
Question? Why are Teproc and silver moving away from me and to scott? Answer: because they know that they have WW's support on that lynch.
WW, I would ask you to unvote. At least so I can reread Teproc/silver. Hydrad, I would ask you to not hammer.
Yes, genius. I love how you act as if it was a dirty little secreg when I've plainky acklonewdged it, but I guess that would require reading whole posts.
It's really more silver's vote that's suspicious to me than yours.
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I don"t think that's accurate either though. ilver has long preferred SP I believe, and only recently moved to you because he thought you might be more likely to happen.
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Vote Count 4.4
faust (1): Hydrad
Teproc (3): faust, EgorK, scott_pilgirm
scott_pilgrim (2): silverspawn, Teproc
Not Voting (1): Witherweaver
With 7 alive it takes 4 to lynch. Day Four ends at 7 pm forum time Wednesday, April 13th.
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So we have what, both scott and Teproc at L-1, and Hydrad as a tiebreaker? Yuck.
Question? Why are Teproc and silver moving away from me and to scott? Answer: because they know that they have WW's support on that lynch.
WW, I would ask you to unvote. At least so I can reread Teproc/silver. Hydrad, I would ask you to not hammer.
I'm unvoted.
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silverspawn reread:
- the "non-PGO" slip. Well uh, I think he made that mistake, either honestly there and then or in the scum chat and decided to use it for towncred. Not much of a tell either way.
- votes for RR and WW
- feels compelled to comment on Teproc forgetting who the IC was. Which is pretty clearly a no tell; but this slightly hints towards partners.
- votes Limetime without real reason. I don't know, weak bus maybe? If there was a reason (actually I first thought there was), I would say mild town, but as it is, it's just an inconsequential vote.
- votes scott (sheeping Teproc)
- calls Teproc votes "scummy business". I mean if Teproc is his partner, he's going for defense hard. Which makes sense, since Teproc is a strong scum player and certainly more important to the team than Limetime.
- votes RR
- unvotes. Says he didn't know why he was voting for him. Ugh. Again, inconsequential voting.
- says RR has done nothing to make him think he's scum. Yet he has voted for him twice. I know inconsistency is a town tell yada yada yada, but I cannot really imagine saying that about someone I voted for.
- votes scott
- votes Joseph
- says "I know I like to avoid confrontations as scum". Funny seeing as he's doing exactly this here for like the whole game.
- says that Hydrad jumping the wagon looks bad (before the lynch went through).
- says Teproc's hammer was anti-town. Well that's at least something. Then implies that town!Teproc is just as likely to do anti-town things, which... no. Just no.
- has a gut scumread on me. I have to say I 100% expect scum!silver to push me. That is like his thing. "faust is still alive, he must be scumzorz!"
- then we have the comment where he didn't realize that Limetime claimed. Well this one is interesting, with daytalk and all. I could see it scum scum not reading that, or forgetting and thinking "I need to look like I don't know Limetime is a Doc". But only if the claim hasn't been discussed in the mafia QT. Now I guess that is possible. Still in the end it points to silver being town.
- votes WW
- calls scott "really towny". Now that's an interesting shift.
- thinks Hydrad and Egor are townie. Dude has quite a bit of townreads. Not so sure that's what you want as scum.
- calls himself "ultra hyper scummy" for unvoting RR on D1... I don't know what to make of that.
- votes RR
- also finds e scummy
aand that's D2. Now for the real WIFOM.
- when he posts D3, several people have already expressed suspicion of gkrieg. Actually, he's already at L-1. I mean, what do you do as his partner? You could jump there, but then people will certainly point that out and say he saw his partner was going down. Defending him... well, let's just say that I think bussing is better here if you're the first to go there, and vice versa defending is better when you come in late, as scum. But I guess it depends on a lot of things. What I don't like is his defense... it's like not even there. I don't see silver as the type to just wave away good cases.
- then he continues on pushing a case on me. Like, that's never going to happen that day. Another sign of an inconsequential stance.
- this is interesting:
Going by the notorious game where he bussed both partners and almost won the game on its own (I think that was pony mafia), I feel like traditional towny behavior is not telling for Teproc.
was on all wagons, active, confrontational, authentic
And that's it.
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I don"t think that's accurate either though. ilver has long preferred SP I believe, and only recently moved to you because he thought you might be more likely to happen.
I don't think that's true. If you mean today, well he has done some flip-flopping on scott and I think has pretty consistently found me scummy. Over the course of the whole game, he certainly preferred me for most of the time.
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Conclusions of the silver reread:
Well he could go either way. Which is scummy now because many other people are townie. Scum is doing a good job overall, that's for sure.
If he is Teproc's partner, they definitely go for the hardcore defense mode. I kind of feel that because his read on Teproc lacks substance. It's all gut reads and "general attitude" sort of stuff, no post that he can point me to and say "that's pretty damn townie", no refutes of my reasons to think he's scum. So I guess I'm warming up to that lynch. Still prefer Teproc, but I prefer silver over scott a whole lot more.
For now I fear that the Teproc wagon may not go through. Which is a shame, and I feel bad for leaving it when it's so close to hammer, but I feel like if I insist, then scott is going to die... so this is hard. I will vote: silver to get something going. I will be here most of tomorrow and can change back if there's enough support.
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this is not rational&smart!SP talking, this is scum!SP talking. Teproc is frustrated because he's being asked about something he answered 7 times already, and SP turns it around to say that Teproc has "reached a point where he's realized how nonsensical his justification of his hammer is, and he's just trying to direct us away from that issue." Come on.
I might have said stuff more aggressively than I normally would because I was pretty upset that Teproc thinks his time is so much more valuable than mine that he would make me dig through a million of his posts to try to find something that would have taken 5 seconds for him to just say. Plus, he really overstated how much he's answered that question already (which is actually only, like, sort of, indirectly, and an extremely unsatisfying answer at that). I'm not wasting his time by asking him that, I'm trying to be fair and give him a chance to explain himself, but he won't take it. To me it looks like he's scum and doesn't want to be involved in that issue anymore, because he knows it looks bad for him.
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Oh man If it comes down to S_P/ Teproc... I hope I don't have to choose.
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Gah Vote: silver then.
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I kind of feel that because his read on Teproc lacks substance. It's all gut reads and "general attitude" sort of stuff, no post that he can point me to and say "that's pretty damn townie", no refutes of my reasons to think he's scum. So I guess I'm warming up to that lynch. Still prefer Teproc, but I prefer silver over scott a whole lot more.
Once again, lies... JUst recently he quoted a few posts from me he finds townie, and you disagreed. Just because someone says something you dsagree with doesn't mean they said nothing.
You act as if your read on me was somehow more valuable than anyone else's... why ? Half of your reasons are crap (again, "he's different" is not what I'd call an argument", really the only argument that holds any water for some is the hammer thing, since even on the interactions front it's wobbly at best.
Not to mention that if silverspawn and I are both scum (which seems to be the only way you're approaching this, positing my being scum from the start, great scumhunting), he defended both his partners, hard.
Also, you "fear the wagon won't go through" at L-1 ? What the hell is that ? Are you scared that I'll flip town and you'll get immediately lynched ?
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faust's read :
- Debatable argument
- Awful argument
- Awful argument
- Gut
silverspawn's read :
- Debatable argument
- Gut
Yes, clealry faust is the superior being here, and silverspawn should be ashamed of himself for daring to disagree.
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Once again, lies... JUst recently he quoted a few posts from me he finds townie, and you disagreed. Just because someone says something you dsagree with doesn't mean they said nothing.
Yes I disagreed. I didn't think these posts gave any indication of alignment, and silver only dragged them out when prompted, not even mentioning them for the rest of the game (when he already had a townread on you).
You act as if your read on me was somehow more valuable than anyone else's... why ? Half of your reasons are crap (again, "he's different" is not what I'd call an argument", really the only argument that holds any water for some is the hammer thing, since even on the interactions front it's wobbly at best.
Well guess what? I don't think that my reasons are crap. I think you decided from the start to play this game in a certain fashion, and that's more likely a scum thing to do (especially seeing as there are no PRs). I mean could it be stronger? Yes. But there are no obvscum players here, and you come closest. And of course I think my read is more valuable than anyone else's, otherwise I wouldn't need to play this game and could just sheep whatever person I think has more valuable reads.
Not to mention that if silverspawn and I are both scum (which seems to be the only way you're approaching this, positing my being scum from the start, great scumhunting), he defended both his partners, hard.
WW asked what I think about a silver/Teproc team, so of course I considered this in my reread.
Also, you "fear the wagon won't go through" at L-1 ? What the hell is that ? Are you scared that I'll flip town and you'll get immediately lynched ?
Yes - everyone not on the wagon has expressed dislike of it. All those people would prefer to lynch scott. I cannot let that happen.
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Of course you trust your opinion more than other's, that's fine, but you're presenting your read as being rational and reasoned and other people's reads as being nothing more than unjustified impressions. This is, at best, a misrepresentation.
Basically,this all game you've been conflating "X disagrees with me" with "X has no possible reason for thinking this and must therefore be scum because I don't like those reasons they gave".
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ANd to go "Well I don't get his reasoning" to "He must be scum", is fine, that's not my problem here. My problem is how you're trying to warp perception taht you're good old townie, reasonable faust and everyone who disagrees with you is being tremendously anti-town. That's not what's happening here.
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I thought the deadline was quicker. In this case I'll be there after all.
Somehow I saw this late minute switch coming. Not a good idea. As scum I could have hammered Teproc. Not hard to fabricate a change of opinion, well within my town meta.
I've to go, maybe I'll say more later
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ANd to go "Well I don't get his reasoning" to "He must be scum", is fine, that's not my problem here. My problem is how you're trying to warp perception taht you're good old townie, reasonable faust and everyone who disagrees with you is being tremendously anti-town. That's not what's happening here.
I don't know where I implied that disagreeing with me is anti-town.
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But it's convenient how Teproc continues to pound me and has nothing to say about scott's post.
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Because oh no, then he'd have to admit that some people do agree with me.
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I kind of feel that because his read on Teproc lacks substance. It's all gut reads and "general attitude" sort of stuff, no post that he can point me to and say "that's pretty damn townie", no refutes of my reasons to think he's scum.
Maybe anti-town is not the right word, but you're clearly presenting it as not valid. Why ? As far as I can tell, it's only because you disagree with it, since the allaged inferiority of his read over your is completely fictitious. Enveopping a read in specious arguments makes it prettier, but a read is a read.
PPE : I never pretended you were the only one... I do think one of you is town being very, very wrong and encouraged by the other.
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My whole point is that you're being persuasive by misrepresenting people... I'm not surprised people agree with you, I think we all know you're good at convincing people.
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this is not rational&smart!SP talking, this is scum!SP talking. Teproc is frustrated because he's being asked about something he answered 7 times already, and SP turns it around to say that Teproc has "reached a point where he's realized how nonsensical his justification of his hammer is, and he's just trying to direct us away from that issue." Come on.
1. I think it's a mistake to assume that scum!scott is not rational and smart for some reason.
2. I totally agree with what scott said. I guess I get to be scum for that too. But you won't convince me with this.
which is it? Giving tow conflicting explanations for the same thing is a lie tell
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Gah Vote: silver then.
You should rethink that.
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EgorK, are you amenable to lynhing faust or SP ? Would you lynch either over silver ?
Because if so we should be able to. silver+me+Hydrad+Egork makes 4 on faust. silver+me+WW+EgorK makes 4 on SP (though I'm not sure about WW there).
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this is not rational&smart!SP talking, this is scum!SP talking. Teproc is frustrated because he's being asked about something he answered 7 times already, and SP turns it around to say that Teproc has "reached a point where he's realized how nonsensical his justification of his hammer is, and he's just trying to direct us away from that issue." Come on.
1. I think it's a mistake to assume that scum!scott is not rational and smart for some reason.
2. I totally agree with what scott said. I guess I get to be scum for that too. But you won't convince me with this.
which is it? Giving tow conflicting explanations for the same thing is a lie tell
What? I am not giving two conflicting explanations. In fact, I am not giving any explanation at all in that post.
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EgorK, are you amenable to lynhing faust or SP ? Would you lynch either over silver ?
Because if so we should be able to. silver+me+Hydrad+Egork makes 4 on faust. silver+me+WW+EgorK makes 4 on SP (though I'm not sure about WW there).
Maybe His Grand Majesty Teproc I cannot be bothered to do so, but could you tell me why you don't want to lynch silver?
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EgorK, are you amenable to lynhing faust or SP ? Would you lynch either over silver ?
Because if so we should be able to. silver+me+Hydrad+Egork makes 4 on faust. silver+me+WW+EgorK makes 4 on SP (though I'm not sure about WW there).
Maybe His Grand Majesty Teproc I cannot be bothered to do so, but could you tell me why you don't want to lynch silver?
Nice. There is exactly one issue I'm not interested in discussing anymore, and I'm the second most active player in this game by a fair margin (if not the first), but clearly I've been so opaque in my process that this is required.
I will direct you to my silverspawn reread.
oh lulz scum has daychat.
well in that case vote: Limetime
oh lulz scum has daychat.
well in that case vote: Limetime
Can you explain how these two things are related?
that's easy; WW isn't scum, so it's someone else. Limetime is the first choice that comes to mind.
This is early day 1, just after the WW "townslip" kills that wagon.
I don't think we should lynch him, in any case.
I might want to lynch the third doctor... or somene who's been flying under the radar. Not Teproc, SP, you, or Limetime.
Midway through day 2 now. "You" is yuma. Worth noting because Limetime was in fact the third doctor.
That's it. Meh.
unvote
Let's look somewhere else.
PPE : I agree with faust. (!)
To explicit that "meh" : the third doctor thing is actually pretty significant. Sure, you could fake it, but as a matter of fact Limetime was already out as a doctor at this point, to anyone paying attention. scum!silver would probably be aware of that.
Also I'm not lynching anyone outside of {S_P, faust} unless forced to because of the deadline. I refuse to believe Limetime, in his first scum game, puts someone to L-1 a few hours into the day without one of his partners being on wagon.
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Well hum. I agree that the third Doctor thing is the best silver has going for himself.
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I don't remember you responding to that point actually (the Limetime vote on me). And really, if you think I'm scum shouldn't it be even less believable ?
It should make you suspect S_P. On the off-chance that you're town, don't be fooled by his agreeing with you on virtually everything (I know the one thing making me doubt silver is exactly that).
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I don't remember you responding to that point actually (the Limetime vote on me). And really, if you think I'm scum shouldn't it be even less believable ?
Well I see that argument, but you know it loses some of its appeal with daychat. I'm not sure what you mean by that question.
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Hm. I didn't factor daychat into it, true.
What I mean by the question is : would Limetime, in his first scum game, put his partner at L-1 a few hours into day 1 ? Obviously your answer there is "yes", so then : would he do so without the there partner also bussing ?
I guess that also loses some appeal because of daychat, I could have asked him to do it in there, assuming it would scare people off.
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Also I'm not lynching anyone outside of {S_P, faust} unless forced to because of the deadline. I refuse to believe Limetime, in his first scum game, puts someone to L-1 a few hours into the day without one of his partners being on wagon.
Refused to believe? Isn't that person you?
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Also I'm not lynching anyone outside of {S_P, faust} unless forced to because of the deadline. I refuse to believe Limetime, in his first scum game, puts someone to L-1 a few hours into the day without one of his partners being on wagon.
Refused to believe? Isn't that person you?
I don't understand the question.
"refuse to believe", is just a manner of speech, I mean I think it's very unlikely.
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Also I'm not lynching anyone outside of {S_P, faust} unless forced to because of the deadline. I refuse to believe Limetime, in his first scum game, puts someone to L-1 a few hours into the day without one of his partners being on wagon.
Refused to believe? Isn't that person you?
I don't understand the question.
"refuse to believe", is just a manner of speech, I mean I think it's very unlikely.
But the person he put at L-1 is you, right? It's weirdly phrased given that.
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Also I'm not lynching anyone outside of {S_P, faust} unless forced to because of the deadline. I refuse to believe Limetime, in his first scum game, puts someone to L-1 a few hours into the day without one of his partners being on wagon.
Refused to believe? Isn't that person you?
I don't understand the question.
"refuse to believe", is just a manner of speech, I mean I think it's very unlikely.
But the person he put at L-1 is you, right? It's weirdly phrased given that.
Yes. Why ?
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Because it's not a question of believing or thinking it's unlikely for you.. you know Limetime was scum and you know your alignment.
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But I think it's unlikely regardless of my alignment. Admittedly me makingthis argument as scum would mean faust and S_P are less likely to be scum (since I want to lynch them), but whatever.
I guess your point is that it wasn't necessarily clear that I was talking about a wagon on me, but since I've brought it up a few times recently I assumed people would know that.
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Why can't 'The third doctor' be referring to me?
I don't think we should lynch him, in any case.
I might want to lynch the third doctor... or somene who's been flying under the radar. Not Teproc, SP, you, or Limetime.
*sigh*
?
WW is the third Doctor, you know. It was discussed just a few posts ago.
Also why should we not lynch Teproc?
his defense reads frustrated town
vote: WW
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But I think it's unlikely regardless of my alignment. Admittedly me makingthis argument as scum would mean faust and S_P are less likely to be scum (since I want to lynch them), but whatever.
I guess your point is that it wasn't necessarily clear that I was talking about a wagon on me, but since I've brought it up a few times recently I assumed people would know that.
My point is that 'I refuse to believe...' doesn't make sense, or apply, because there isn't any condition in which you can doubt the truth-value of the statement.
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Vote: Silverspawn
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But I think it's unlikely regardless of my alignment. Admittedly me makingthis argument as scum would mean faust and S_P are less likely to be scum (since I want to lynch them), but whatever.
I guess your point is that it wasn't necessarily clear that I was talking about a wagon on me, but since I've brought it up a few times recently I assumed people would know that.
My point is that 'I refuse to believe...' doesn't make sense, or apply, because there isn't any condition in which you can doubt the truth-value of the statement.
Yes, there is : the presence of scum on my wagon prior Limetime's vote. That's the whole point of my argument ?
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Why can't 'The third doctor' be referring to me?
Good point. I assumed he missed Limetime's claim, but from this is seems much more likely that he really missed yours. That means the thing isn't really a town tell for silver.
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Vote: Silverspawn
L-1 by the way.
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Huh, I assumed it had to be Limetime since you had been out as a doctor first...
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Huh, I assumed it had to be Limetime since you had been out as a doctor first...
Well WW's claim has been sort of hidden IIRC.
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But I think it's unlikely regardless of my alignment. Admittedly me makingthis argument as scum would mean faust and S_P are less likely to be scum (since I want to lynch them), but whatever.
I guess your point is that it wasn't necessarily clear that I was talking about a wagon on me, but since I've brought it up a few times recently I assumed people would know that.
My point is that 'I refuse to believe...' doesn't make sense, or apply, because there isn't any condition in which you can doubt the truth-value of the statement.
Yes, there is : the presence of scum on my wagon prior Limetime's vote. That's the whole point of my argument ?
Ahh.. okay.. I thought you were talking about Limetime putting you to L-1 and using that to imply that you were town since 'you don't believe' he would do that to his partner.
You're saying that the L-1 vote implies that there were other scum on the wagon.
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Huh, I assumed it had to be Limetime since you had been out as a doctor first...
Well WW's claim has been sort of hidden IIRC.
Most people missed it.
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Ahh.. okay.. I thought you were talking about Limetime putting you to L-1 and using that to imply that you were town since 'you don't believe' he would do that to his partner.
You're saying that the L-1 vote implies that there were other scum on the wagon.
Ironically, the argument yo thoght he was making actually makes more sense to me than the argumetn he was actually making.
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Huh, I assumed it had to be Limetime since you had been out as a doctor first...
Well WW's claim has been sort of hidden IIRC.
Most people missed it.
I remember mentally noting it as "did WW claim Doctor ?" and kinda forgetting about it.
ANyway, looking at the context you're right, I do think he's referring to you and not Limetime. That changes things, though I'm still not a fan of lynching silver over faust/S_P.
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Ahh.. okay.. I thought you were talking about Limetime putting you to L-1 and using that to imply that you were town since 'you don't believe' he would do that to his partner.
You're saying that the L-1 vote implies that there were other scum on the wagon.
Ironically, the argument yo thoght he was making actually makes more sense to me than the argumetn he was actually making.
It's not a terrible point. New scum, you don't really want to be bold. Seeing your partner on wagon may indicate to you that it's a good move to make.
As mentioned, though, Daychat mitigates this quite a bit.
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Vote Count 4.faust
Teproc (2): EgorK, scott_pilgirm
scott_pilgrim (2): silverspawn, Teproc
silverspawn (3): faust, Hydrad, Witherweaver
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I think town Silver would have either corrected that misunderstanding or, if it was indeed correct, used it to take a 'consider me town' type of attitude.
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I think town Silver would have either corrected that misunderstanding or, if it was indeed correct, used it to take a 'consider me town' type of attitude.
That's what I'm wondering about. It's plausible that he didn't remember too.
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silver being scum goes contrary to everything else I think about this game though. Don't like it.
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I don't think he said anything about your post at all. Town!Silver is one to argue his own towniness.
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silver being scum goes contrary to everything else I think about this game though. Don't like it.
Have you actually gone and reread all his posts?
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At least up to the end of day 2. I remembered day 3 well enough, I think I skipped it, it was basically him defending gkrieg all the way right ?
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At least up to the end of day 2. I remembered day 3 well enough, I think I skipped it, it was basically him defending gkrieg all the way right ?
Yes, and pushing a wagon on me. He only started defending gkrieg when he was at L-1 (though admittedly, that's because he got there real quickly and silver didn't post before it happened).
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I look forward to reading the mafia QT for this, whatever the outcome.
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I look forward to reading the mafia QT for this, whatever the outcome.
I guess you can't be Mafia then!
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well, I said that I would probably want to lynch me if I was someone else, but you came so close to not doing it which is awesome. Now you're ruining it and... we'll you'll lynch town.
I'll say again that I had an easy out to lynch Teproc and didn't, knowing that it could have meant my lynch. Why do that as scum?
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I look forward to reading the mafia QT for this, whatever the outcome.
I guess you can't be Mafia then!
Man, you're seeing right through me.
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I suspect SP will hammer, and then both scum are probably on wagon.
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Arguing with an implicit assumption that you're certain Teproc is town is not helping mitigate any thoughts of scum!you.
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well, I said that I would probably want to lynch me if I was someone else, but you came so close to not doing it which is awesome. Now you're ruining it and... we'll you'll lynch town.
I'll say again that I had an easy out to lynch Teproc and didn't, knowing that it could have meant my lynch. Why do that as scum?
Because he's your partner. Man, I've solved the game.
Also it goes contrary to everything you said since the game started. Wouldn't have been believable and you would have died the next day.
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I think town Silver would have either corrected that misunderstanding or, if it was indeed correct, used it to take a 'consider me town' type of attitude.
I never really understood the third doctor thing
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well, I said that I would probably want to lynch me if I was someone else, but you came so close to not doing it which is awesome. Now you're ruining it and... we'll you'll lynch town.
I'll say again that I had an easy out to lynch Teproc and didn't, knowing that it could have meant my lynch. Why do that as scum?
Because he's your partner. Man, I've solved the game.
Also it goes contrary to everything you said since the game started. Wouldn't have been believable and you would have died the next day.
Scum needs 2 mislynches, we need 2 correct lynches. I'm almost certain that I would've taken a 1-1 trade. And I am not even guaranteed to die.
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I have an accurate reputation for changing my mind and all that.
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Because he's your partner.
okay I guess you can believe that. Not very likely mathematically, though.
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Because he's your partner.
okay I guess you can believe that. Not very likely mathematically, though.
By god, there's less scum in this game than town. You've cracked it.
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I don't like being mislynched :(
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Because he's your partner.
okay I guess you can believe that. Not very likely mathematically, though.
By god, there's less scum in this game than town. You've cracked it.
Idk if you're being ironic but any particular pairing is unlikely.
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Because he's your partner.
okay I guess you can believe that. Not very likely mathematically, though.
By god, there's less scum in this game than town. You've cracked it.
Idk if you're being ironic but any particular pairing is unlikely.
Thanks, I missed third grade. Glad you could enlighten me.
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Be ironic all you want, but you've said things before that I don't think are any less false than thinking a particular pairing is likely. I have no idea what else you believe. Being passive-aggressive about that when I had no intention of starting a fight is... well.
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Okay I'm going back to not reading your posts.
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We're a bunch of grumpy people.
Well, wake me up when silver flips town and y'all are ready to lynch faust.
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A lot to read through
Teproc trying to bargain with me into lynching either faust or SP - I do not like that
I guess I can do silver, would prefer Teproc though. Consider this as intent to hammer
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Also if Teproc and faust is scum team they played this game out of this world good
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I wasn't bargaining : that would imply that I'm offering you something in exchange for something else. I was trying to figure a way to get a lynch through on someone I think has better than average odds of flipping scum.
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A lot to read through
Teproc trying to bargain with me into lynching either faust or SP - I do not like that
I guess I can do silver, would prefer Teproc though. Consider this as intent to hammer
how about we lynch SP instead?
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I guess I can do silver, would prefer Teproc though. Consider this as intent to hammer
So what's keeping you from hammering? I mean if you can convince one more player to vote for Teproc, I would also be happy to switch, but I doubt that that's going to happen.
Or... silverspanw? Do you wish to vote Teproc to save your own skin?
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I guess I can do silver, would prefer Teproc though. Consider this as intent to hammer
So what's keeping you from hammering? I mean if you can convince one more player to vote for Teproc, I would also be happy to switch, but I doubt that that's going to happen.
Or... silverspanw? Do you wish to vote Teproc to save your own skin?
... sure. vote: Teproc
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Well then?
vote: silver
Sorry.
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Damn. Too slow.
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I think Teproc is about half as likely scum as SP, maybe. That's still over 100000000000000 times as likely as me.
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Well then?
vote: silver
Sorry.
it's okay, I would have done the same if I were you.
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Man, this game is going to hurt my stats.
PPE : E-mail notifications for the win. Well. The "don't get lynched yet".
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Well I'm really sorry. I take most of the blame for this lynch. Although it's been going in the most depressing way; I've been expecting to get lynched from the start, but then you gave me hope only to come back and lynch me anyway.
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Well I'm really sorry. I take most of the blame for this lynch. Although it's been going in the most depressing way; I've been expecting to get lynched from the start, but then you gave me hope only to come back and lynch me anyway.
I know we should know them pretty clearly, but final reads ?
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Damn. Too slow.
I'm looking forward to your explanation for how scumy that hammer was by the way, should be fun !
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SP > faust > Hydrad > WW > Egork > Teproc
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Damn. Too slow.
I'm looking forward to your explanation for how scumy that hammer was by the way, should be fun !
I'll think of something. Just don't nightkill me!
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The sad thing is I could have avoided this had I played a bit more clever.
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Damn. Too slow.
I'm looking forward to your explanation for how scumy that hammer was by the way, should be fun !
Yeah, let's end that argument before it even starts. If you have to choose between your lynch and someone else's, then it's in your wincon to choose the other person every time as both scum and town.
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Well yeah, I don't seriously think anyone would have made it.
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Damn. Too slow.
I'm looking forward to your explanation for how scumy that hammer was by the way, should be fun !
Yeah, let's end that argument before it even starts. If you have to choose between your lynch and someone else's, then it's in your wincon to choose the other person every time as both scum and town.
Thanks, I missed third grade. Glad you could enlighten me.
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well, what can I say, the lesson I've been taking from the math debate is to never assume that something which I think is obvious is also obvious to other people...
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I definitely don't think taking to mockery is warranted.
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dot dot dot
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So is he hammered?
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yes
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THREAD LOCKED
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silverspawn has been lynched! He was a Vanilla Townie!
Final Vote Count
Teproc (3): EgorK, scott_pilgirm, silverspawn
silverspawn (4): faust, Hydrad, Witherweaver, Teproc
With 7 alive it took 4 to lynch. Night Four begins now and ends at 7 pm forum time Friday, April 15th. Deadline for night actions is at 7 pm forum time Thursday, April 14th.
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Witherweaver has been killed in the night! He was a Vanilla Townie!
Vote Count 5.0
Not Voting (5): faust, Hydrad, EgorK, Teproc, scott_pilgrim
With 7 alive it takes 4 to lynch. Day Five begins now and ends at 7 pm forum time Monday, April 25th.
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Well, no weird surprises at least I guess.
We should mass claim.
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I think Egor, as the closest thing we have to a consensus town read, should determine an order.
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Can scum even fakeclaim in this?
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Yeah, I don't see the point in a claiming order. I guess I can wait though.
I was really hoping WW would survive because then he would have been obvscum, but oh well. That's why I didn't want to talk about him yesterday by the way, I actually thought he'd be pretty likely to be scum, but didn't want scum to think he was lynchable. Anyway.
This is lylo, so don't vote irresponsibly. It looks... pretty hopeless, so please take the time to reread with open eyes (I know I'll try for my part).
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Yeah, I don't see the point in a claiming order. I guess I can wait though.
You can always just go first. I don't have a problem with that.
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Sure. I'm the last Roleblocker, e was also a Roleblocker.
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Wagon overview:
Roadrunner7671 (2): yuma, Limetime
Teproc (2): Witherweaver, Joseph2302
Joseph2302 (7): faust, EgorK, silverspawn, 2.71828, scott_piglrim, Hydrad, Teproc
faust (1): Roadrunner7671
Not Voting (1): gkrieg13,
Teproc (5): faust, scott_pilgrim, Roadrunner7671, yuma, Witherweaver
Roadrunner7671 (6): silverspawn, EgorK, gkrieg13, 2.71828, Teproc, Hydrad
gkrieg13 (5): faust, EgorK, Hydrad, Teproc, Witherweaver[
faust (2):silverspawn, gkrieg13
Witherweaver (1): scott_pilgrim
Teproc (3): EgorK, scott_pilgirm, silverspawn
silverspawn (4): faust, Hydrad, Witherweaver, Teproc
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Sure. I'm the last Roleblocker, e was also a Roleblocker.
So what did you do on the nights you could block?
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Guess there's no need to drag this out then. Me, scott and Egor are the PGO neighborhood. All alive. Which is important because I have a theory that I will share with you, and then hopefully Teproc and Hydrad will have easy votes today.
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Sure. I'm the last Roleblocker, e was also a Roleblocker.
So what did you do on the nights you could block?
N1 e was chosen to target you, one can assume he did do it.
N2 I was chosen to target S_P, and I did.
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That second one was N3, N2 we couldn't because of RR's lynch.
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I do think this makes S_P slightly townier (and is a part of why I was preferring faust over S_P after that point).
The N1 one isn't very relevant, I though faust was a pretty poor choice because there was enough pressure on him that he was unlikely to be chosen for the kill.
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That second one was N3, N2 we couldn't because of RR's lynch.
What do you think was it RR wanted to share shortly before he was lynched?
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That second one was N3, N2 we couldn't because of RR's lynch.
What do you think was it RR wanted to share shortly before he was lynched?
No idea. There wasn't anything particularly noteworthy in the QT. I guess there's the fact that I started some theory talk before day 1 about wether or not claiming neighborhoods was a good idea. RR didn't participate, e and I agreed that claiming on D2 or D3 was probably best.
I mean there's some other stuff like e making predictions about night actions and stuff, maybe he thought I was scum with e because we were both fine with choosing each other for the action ? Not sure.
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Okay, here is the theory:
Both remaining scum are not in the PGO neighborhood.
Why? Because think about it: If all scum are in PGO and Doctors, then the two neighborhoods that can catch scum are full of town. Then mafia's first priority has to be to take them out. That didn't happen. Another priority was to make sure the fully controlled the PGOs, which would be particularly good in the late game. They didn't do that either.
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I realize I may have formulated that wrong. Sorry. What I mean is that there is at most one scum in the PGOs.
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I guess he was saying it was something that could clear him ? RR barely posted in the QT so it's definitely not that.
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Ok, so let's recap.
Doctors : Joseph (lynched day 1), Limetime (lynched day 3), WW (killed night 4)
Roleblockers : Roadrunner (lynched day 2), e (killed night 3), Teproc
PGO : faust, scott_pilgrim, EgorK
Motion Detector : yuma (killed night 2), silverspawn (lynched day 4), Hydrad
I'm not sure I follow your reasoning. Are you saying that scum is more worried about motion detectors than doctors ? Wasn't your whole point all game that doctors are the most important thing in the world ?
Basically the only kill you find weird is the e kill, right ? But... roleblockers can catch scum too, so I don't get your point ? Unless the yuma kill is what you're basing this on, but there were others reasons to kill yuma.
I'm not even clear what your reasoning is.
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Okay, here is the theory:
Both remaining scum are not in the PGO neighborhood.
Why? Because think about it: If all scum are in PGO and Doctors, then the two neighborhoods that can catch scum are full of town. Then mafia's first priority has to be to take them out. That didn't happen. Another priority was to make sure the fully controlled the PGOs, which would be particularly good in the late game. They didn't do that either.
They already do control the PGOs if there's two of them in there.
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And frankly why would they care ? Being in the PGO neighborhood is good enough, that lets you know who to avoid.
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Okay, here is the theory:
Both remaining scum are not in the PGO neighborhood.
Why? Because think about it: If all scum are in PGO and Doctors, then the two neighborhoods that can catch scum are full of town. Then mafia's first priority has to be to take them out. That didn't happen. Another priority was to make sure the fully controlled the PGOs, which would be particularly good in the late game. They didn't do that either.
They already do control the PGOs if there's two of them in there.
Well, but they cannot use it without town knowing. And the want to use it. Which is why they want to eliminate the town witness.
We never used our power. I proposed it I think N3, but scott and Egor wouldn't go for it.
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And frankly why would they care ? Being in the PGO neighborhood is good enough, that lets you know who to avoid.
Because, for instance, if they can always PGO the one performing the kill, that's really strong: If they're roleblocked, there will still be a kill. If they are motion detected, it kills the detective.
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I mean, it should be obvious that scum controlling any meighborhood makes them stronger, and PGO is the best power for scum to have.
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Okay, here is the theory:
Both remaining scum are not in the PGO neighborhood.
Why? Because think about it: If all scum are in PGO and Doctors, then the two neighborhoods that can catch scum are full of town. Then mafia's first priority has to be to take them out. That didn't happen. Another priority was to make sure the fully controlled the PGOs, which would be particularly good in the late game. They didn't do that either.
They already do control the PGOs if there's two of them in there.
Well, but they cannot use it without town knowing. And the want to use it. Which is why they want to eliminate the town witness.
We never used our power. I proposed it I think N3, but scott and Egor wouldn't go for it.
Ah, I see. Still doesn't seem that great to me. Yeah the upside of a double kill is appealing, but I think scum should be much more concerned about PoE than trying to exploit neighborhoods.
PPE : I suppose. So what you're saying is if both scum were PGO's, they would have killed the third one, but when ? Instead of yuma or instead of e ?
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I mean, it should be obvious that scum controlling any meighborhood makes them stronger, and PGO is the best power for scum to have.
I just think all of that is about five thousand times less important than PoE, because those powers are so weak for town anyway.
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PPE : I suppose. So what you're saying is if both scum were PGO's, they would have killed the third one, but when ? Instead of yuma or instead of e ?
Probably instead of e. I still don't get the e kill anyway.
Arguably there would also have been more push for a lynch here, but the three of us basically maintained town reads on each other for most of the game.
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I mean, it should be obvious that scum controlling any meighborhood makes them stronger, and PGO is the best power for scum to have.
I just think all of that is about five thousand times less important than PoE, because those powers are so weak for town anyway.
I think Roleblock/Motion Detect is pretty strong in the hands of an all-town neighborhood. And that's what we're looking at if two scum are PGOs.
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Well here's the thing. That theory makes sense if I'm scum, maybe. Because that'd be a reason to kill e right ?
Except... seriously ? e was probably my biggest ally along with silverspawn. Granted reads can change, but killing e seems really, really dumb on my part doesn't it ?
Now if Hydrad is scum, why did he kill e specifically ? Because he was a roleblocker I guess, and that gets them rid of what's the most dangerous power to them (since they don't have access to that Qt) ?
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I mean, it should be obvious that scum controlling any meighborhood makes them stronger, and PGO is the best power for scum to have.
I just think all of that is about five thousand times less important than PoE, because those powers are so weak for town anyway.
I think Roleblock/Motion Detect is pretty strong in the hands of an all-town neighborhood. And that's what we're looking at if two scum are PGOs.
Except it's only good once we know it's an all-town neighborhood. The fact that negative results are basically meaningless before that is a very, very significant downside.
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There's also the fact atht you've been alluding to this theory for two days, which makes me think it could have very easily been planned.
I assume this wasn't discussed in the PGO neighborhood ?
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I mean, it should be obvious that scum controlling any meighborhood makes them stronger, and PGO is the best power for scum to have.
I just think all of that is about five thousand times less important than PoE, because those powers are so weak for town anyway.
I think Roleblock/Motion Detect is pretty strong in the hands of an all-town neighborhood. And that's what we're looking at if two scum are PGOs.
Except it's only good once we know it's an all-town neighborhood. The fact that negative results are basically meaningless before that is a very, very significant downside.
Scum would still be afraid.
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Well here's the thing. That theory makes sense if I'm scum, maybe. Because that'd be a reason to kill e right ?
Except... seriously ? e was probably my biggest ally along with silverspawn. Granted reads can change, but killing e seems really, really dumb on my part doesn't it ?
Now if Hydrad is scum, why did he kill e specifically ? Because he was a roleblocker I guess, and that gets them rid of what's the most dangerous power to them (since they don't have access to that Qt) ?
My working hypothesis is that the scum team is you/Hydrad, and you were afraid to shoot PGOs.
But if you have a perfect fine reasoning for Hydrad doing it, you can just vote for him.
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There's also the fact atht you've been alluding to this theory for two days, which makes me think it could have very easily been planned.
I assume this wasn't discussed in the PGO neighborhood ?
I strongly doubt that because I only had the idea last night. Which is also when I shared it in the neighborhood, in case I died.
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I mean, it should be obvious that scum controlling any meighborhood makes them stronger, and PGO is the best power for scum to have.
I just think all of that is about five thousand times less important than PoE, because those powers are so weak for town anyway.
I think Roleblock/Motion Detect is pretty strong in the hands of an all-town neighborhood. And that's what we're looking at if two scum are PGOs.
Except it's only good once we know it's an all-town neighborhood. The fact that negative results are basically meaningless before that is a very, very significant downside.
Scum would still be afraid.
It's almost as if we were seeing this setup from different perspective because we have different alignments...
In any case, what you're getting at is that we shold lynch Hydrad or me. I don't think me killing e makes much sense (I'm guessing I would have killed SP, knowing that the roleblocker result on him would eventually make him harder to lynch), and I think Hydrad killing e makes as much sense as anyone else.
PPE : Yes, I get that you want me to vote Hydrad. But I want to vote you, and Hydrad is the last guy i want to lynch. This feels like a setup to force the lylo choice to be two townies to me.
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Note that I did think about that it makes sense that all three of us are town. This was also discussed in the neighborhood, like days ago.
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There's also the fact atht you've been alluding to this theory for two days, which makes me think it could have very easily been planned.
I assume this wasn't discussed in the PGO neighborhood ?
I strongly doubt that because I only had the idea last night. Which is also when I shared it in the neighborhood, in case I died.
Wait, what was the thing you've been talking about all along then ?
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There's something else though : apparently there was mostly a consensus in the PGO neighborhood not to use it. Then it makes sense for scum to just ignore that neighborhood, because they know they'l never do anything to hurt them.
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That explains the e kill from a full-PGO scumteam : go after the more dangerous PRs, because they're actually using it. ANd e had kind of slipped that he was a roleblocker I think.
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There's something else though : apparently there was mostly a consensus in the PGO neighborhood not to use it. Then it makes sense for scum to just ignore that neighborhood, because they know they'l never do anything to hurt them.
There was not a consensus to never use it. We weighed the pros and cons each night.
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That explains the e kill from a full-PGO scumteam : go after the more dangerous PRs, because they're actually using it. ANd e had kind of slipped that he was a roleblocker I think.
Really? Where? I didn't catch it.
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I already thought this was pointless, but it's good to have your reaction be as I expected. Now for the lynch, I only have to consider which one of you is more likely to be scum!scott's partner.
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Early day 2, yuma noted that roleblockers probably didn't use their role because it was mostly anti-town, and e opposed that strongly... it's hard to say how revealing it was (since I knew he was a roleblocker and we did use it N1), but I thought it might give that info away, I'd have to take another look at it.
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I already thought this was pointless, but it's good to have your reaction be as I expected. Now for the lynch, I only have to consider which one of you is more likely to be scum!scott's partner.
Let's assume you're town. You're coming up with a theory that says that scum has to be the one guy who doesn't want to lynch me and that has been my strongest town read all game. And it's coming from my biggest scumread. And it's not exactly water-tight. Yeah.
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Just so I know if I have even the slightest chance of not being lynched : what did Egork and S_P have to say about this theory ?
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Just so I know if I have even the slightest chance of not being lynched : what did Egork and S_P have to say about this theory ?
They thought it looked good.
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Delightful.
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Delightful.
Well if it helps you I'm leaning towards lynching Hydrad over you, because I think the fight between scott and you is unlikely to be scum v scum.
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Also Egor said he's VLA until sunday, so you have the whole weekend to convince us!
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I do think our discussion on the relative power of PRs should be ample evidence of both our alignments by the way. I think they're weak because, from a town perspective : they really are : no result can be trusted before very late in the game, to the point that it feels completely pointless to even use them, as it's so likely that scum is in the neighborhood and can avoid them easily. faust, OTOH, thinks they're strong : because scum is terrified of PRs... being caught at night is the worse thing that can happen to a player like faust, because they have such control of their day play and all of a sudden here comes this thing they have very little control about : all it take is one player having the right read and they're done.
This has been going on all game by the way.
PPE : It doesn't, because I'm really convinced Hydrad is town.
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Also Egor said he's VLA until sunday, so you have the whole weekend to convince us!
Let's just say convincing you in particular isn't high on my list of priorities.
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Also Egor said he's VLA until sunday, so you have the whole weekend to convince us!
Let's just say convincing you in particular isn't high on my list of priorities.
If you're so convinced about this, you should be voting for me.
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I do want to do a full reread (or at least a reread of everyone alive), first. This is lylo, no need for unnecessary risks.
Besides, even if I edn up stillt hinking you're scum and you're town, realistically I'll have to lynch whoever the townie in {Egork, S_P} wants to lynch. Might be you, might be the other one, we'll see.
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you're scum and Hydrad is town*
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Just want to confirm that I did think faust's theory sounded reasonable...of course for me that just means the scum team isn't faust/EgorK. My first instinct was that Teproc fighting it is scummy, but I guess it's more just survivalist, since town also doesn't want to get PoE'd into a scum team here. Although I do think it should make him a lot more willing to lynch Hydrad...
I have a busy weekend so I'm not sure when I'll be able to post again.
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I'm fighting it because it also doesn't make sense to me. Scum kills based on who is townie, not based on best-case scenario mentality applied to PRs.
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e being killed is strange... I just don't see why a Hydrad/Egork team is more likely to make that kill than a faust/Egork team (or whatever).
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Like : faust says the latter team wouldn't do that because they'd rather kill the third PGO, but why would the first team do it ?
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The answer to that is : because they didn't think e was lynchable. Something that applies just as well to the first team.
I just don't think the appeal of controlling the PGO is THAT sweet that it would push scum to kill someone they see as lynchable. Which is everyone in the PGO QT.
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The answer to that is : because they didn't think e was lynchable. Something that applies just as well to the first team.
I just don't think the appeal of controlling the PGO is THAT sweet that it would push scum to kill someone they see as lynchable. Which is everyone in the PGO QT.
There were no reasons to think that e was less lynchable than, say, WW or Egor. Your argument that scum only considers "lynchability" is wrong, as demonstrated by the fact that they killed e.
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WW sure, but they might have figured his survival would be suspect and they could just kill him a night alter since doctor was turned off anyway. Killing e also had the bonus of turning off roleblocker or motion detector (depending on what they knew).
EgorK is always lynchable, e is not (not always), come on. You know this.
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The answer to that is : because they didn't think e was lynchable. Something that applies just as well to the first team.
I just don't think the appeal of controlling the PGO is THAT sweet that it would push scum to kill someone they see as lynchable. Which is everyone in the PGO QT.
There were no reasons to think that e was less lynchable than, say, WW or Egor. Your argument that scum only considers "lynchability" is wrong, as demonstrated by the fact that they killed e.
By the way, I'm not saying lynchability is the only factor, just the main one. You are the one saying scum only considers neighborhoods, since you're the one drawing definitive conclusions from it. I'm not saying it's not possible for scum to only have one member in the PGO neighborhood... I happen to think Hydrad is town, but I don't think he couldn't be scum.
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I don't know...I think if I were scum and there were two roles out there that could catch me, I'd be shooting furiously at them. Well I wouldn't because I think having control over the PGO is even better. As faust pointed out, if scum controls the PGO neighborhood, they become immune to both investigation possibilities because they end up shooting anyone who tries to investigate them. That not only eliminates their biggest fear, but turns it into a major benefit. Although I suppose they would still have to explain to the rest of town why they shot whenever there are two kills. But anyway I think this is a far bigger deal than killing based on reads or lynchability. In fact in that position I might even prefer to shoot the town PGO over the IC, except I probably wouldn't because that might make it obvious later on why I did that.
But regardless I don't think it's very likely for the scum team to be faust/EgorK anyway, so I'm probably biased in this discussion.
I was thinking it would make sense for Hydrad and Teproc to be very defensive of each other today if they were both scum, because they'd have to shoot at PGO's tonight which would be terrifying, so they want today to be their last day. But then it occurred to me that scum is probably not killing anyone tonight anyway, so they can go into the next day with 4...I wonder what the ruling is on no kill no lynch this game because I don't think the PR's prevent that situation.
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Except scum already has control of the PGO neighborhood. I understand there's a townie right there, but come on it's not that hard to come up with reasons for things, scum does it all the time.
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In that scenario I mean.
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I like, by the way, that we're not considering that there are some people scum would like to shoot over the IC... need I quote some posts from day 2 where everyone called me scum, insane or stupid for saying that exact thing ?
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now* considering
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Ok maybe I need to reread egork if hes a high town read.
I'm still thinking its faust/egork but I'll try to do my part to check on it again.
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That's also the way I'm leaning, but the tough part would be to convince S_P if that's the case.
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That's also the way I'm leaning, but the tough part would be to convince S_P if that's the case.
I thought you think scott was scum.
Also drunk Ama.
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Well, nobodoy wants to ask me, so I'll just go to sleep.
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It is very notable that Teproc and Hydrad end up voting for the same person every single time. Also these extreme mutual townreads that more or less seem to come out of nowhere (has Hydrad ever specified why he think Teproc is town? I don't think so). I mean mostly I just want to lynch Teproc/Hydrad and I think there's a good shot of winning like that. In this scenario, lynching Teproc first seems good because a scum flip there should make it more likely that me/scott are town (in the eyes of each other and Egor), so we would get it right later on probably.
Now we need to look at other pairings for sure. Egor is town for me. I won't question that read; if he's scum, man, well played.
So two of scott/Hydrad/Teproc. That last day seems most important in terms of partner interactions. Scum really doesn't want to get lynched there.
Teproc wants to go after silverspawn first. scott agrees. Which is already suspicious given that they'vebeen at each other's throats throughout the game. Hydrad thinks that Teproc and scott are townie (meh) and votes for me... that at least should give you some indication. Teproc also goes voting for me. Teproc later switches to scott. I make an argument for why scott isn't scum... man, if he's scum, I'd suspect their partner to go for that. Teproc doesn't. Hydrad does nothing (it's a theme). Then both me and Teproc are hanging at L-1 shortly, but neither scott nor Hydrad post during that time. Then Hydrad:
Oh man If it comes down to S_P/ Teproc... I hope I don't have to choose.
It's bad. I really cannot take anything from Hydrad's stance here. Well. Okay, Hydrad never is a serious lynch candidate, Teproc thinks he's town, scott doesn't really take a stance. Hydrad thinks scott/Teproc are both town. From this, any of the two could be paired with Hydrad. However, I do not think a scott/Teproc team makes sense... I mean, even if they both got sidetracked early on, they quickly switch back to accusing each other, which is not something scum wants to do here.
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So... this comes down to my main problem today: I believe Hydrad has the highest likelihood of flipping scum, but that just feels like postponing the decision. So what it really comes down to is whether we get more information tomorrow. And for that, I think we need to know if scum has to kill.
ADK: How are stalemate situations (i.e. repeated no-lynch, no-kill) resolved in this game?
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So... this comes down to my main problem today: I believe Hydrad has the highest likelihood of flipping scum, but that just feels like postponing the decision. So what it really comes down to is whether we get more information tomorrow. And for that, I think we need to know if scum has to kill.
ADK: How are stalemate situations (i.e. repeated no-lynch, no-kill) resolved in this game?
After three rounds of repeated no-lynch/no-kill, if the cycle began with a no-lynch, town will lose, if it began with a no-kill, scum will lose.
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It is very notable that Teproc and Hydrad end up voting for the same person every single time. Also these extreme mutual townreads that more or less seem to come out of nowhere
Right. As opposed to this :
Now we need to look at other pairings for sure. Egor is town for me. I won't question that read; if he's scum, man, well played.
Have you ever justified that read ? The most I can remember is you quoting my read of Hydrad and say "same but EgorK" (well, someone did that and I think it was you).
So two of scott/Hydrad/Teproc. That last day seems most important in terms of partner interactions. Scum really doesn't want to get lynched there.
Teproc wants to go after silverspawn first. scott agrees. Which is already suspicious given that they'vebeen at each other's throats throughout the game.
Unlike you, I'm capable of imagining that someone might disagree with me even if they're town. Also, I just had a "result" of sorts on S_P with the roleblocking : I thought (and still think) that meant you could not be scum together since a faust/SP scumteam would definitely have chosen SP to do the kill.
Hydrad thinks that Teproc and scott are townie (meh) and votes for me... that at least should give you some indication.
An indication of what ?
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Now we need to look at other pairings for sure. Egor is town for me. I won't question that read; if he's scum, man, well played.
Have you ever justified that read ? The most I can remember is you quoting my read of Hydrad and say "same but EgorK" (well, someone did that and I think it was you).
Two main things are pointing out the townslip and the fact that he didn't take the PGO for himself when I basically offered it. Generally he's been pretty high-content too, which I don't remember scum!Egor being.
Hydrad thinks that Teproc and scott are townie (meh) and votes for me... that at least should give you some indication.
An indication of what ?
Indication that Hydrad and I are not scum partners.
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So... this comes down to my main problem today: I believe Hydrad has the highest likelihood of flipping scum, but that just feels like postponing the decision. So what it really comes down to is whether we get more information tomorrow. And for that, I think we need to know if scum has to kill.
ADK: How are stalemate situations (i.e. repeated no-lynch, no-kill) resolved in this game?
After three rounds of repeated no-lynch/no-kill, if the cycle began with a no-lynch, town will lose, if it began with a no-kill, scum will lose.
Vote: Hydrad
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Except scum already has control of the PGO neighborhood. I understand there's a townie right there, but come on it's not that hard to come up with reasons for things, scum does it all the time.
What do you mean by "in control"?
Even if your theory is correct there is still me in PGO neighborhood. So there is still acountability for actions submitted there.
PPE: about a page me thinks
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Sure but in the end they still have the votes. They can't be blatant about it, but all you have to do is come up with reasons... and that's what scum does, all game... not sure why it'd be so hard to do it in a QT.
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I finished reading posts and will not vote until checking some specific interactions
PPE: they could. They had not
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I finished reading posts and will not vote until checking some specific interactions
PPE: they could. They had not
True. Hydrad is so townie though.
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Nothing happening?
Well, I'm going to sleep, so unvote. I don't want a quickhammer to happen before everyone had a chance to say their piece.
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Man I hate this part of the game. I plan to reread at some point...too tired now though.
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Let's reread Hydrad.
D1
Posts: 17
First post is theory. As is second and third. After WW's thing thinks Egor and WW are both town. Well that's just agreeing with the popular opinion. Votes RR, no reasons given. Lurks hard. Comments on RR's being at L-1, still without even giving a read on him. Asks RR for reasons for his vote on me; that's rich. Thinks scott is town. Puts Joseph at L-1, again no reason.
D2
Posts: 27
Starting with two empty posts. Then some thoughts about Doctors; he wants to tentatively lynch there. That would indicate that, if he's scum, they already planned on maybe losing Limetime there. Votes for Limetime. This post:
hmm. i guess if I was scum I wouldn't have caught onto Josephs semi claim there and trusted it enough to make the shot. So I just feel like scum probably was more certain to be able to do that. But maybe I'm just bad at the game :P
So he knows how he would have behaved as scum... that's interesting. Then he defends Teproc for the first time. He wants to vote RR for wagon analysis but not Teproc, and I don't really understand why. Bad. Then more defending Teproc. He also joins ship when silver starts suspecting me. You know, keeping the lynch pool open and alll that. Thinks it's "annoying" that he has to choose between Teproc and RR. But why? He has taken a pretty clear stance there already... but now he has to be accountable with the hammer.
D3
Posts: 6
Comes in when gkrieg is at L-1 and start an alternate wagon on WW. I don't really buy it. He had a scum read on Limetime before and this just feels like trying to stay within his meta. Then votes gkrieg.
D4
Posts: 14
Scumtell of thinking my case on him is good. Votes me with PoE (all his town reads have no reason given)... also he says Egor is null and still lands on silver/me for PoE, which plain makes no sense. All his cases are gut and PoE based on gut.
tl;dr: I don't really know why people think Hydrad is townie. He has done nothing for this game. The only redeeming thing is pushing Limetime/gkrieg, but at this point we know that scum bussed there.
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Vote Count 5.1
Not Voting (5): Hydrad, EgorK, Teproc, scott_pilgrim, faust
With 5 alive it takes 3 to lynch. Day Five begins now and ends at 7 pm forum time Monday, April 25th.
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Anyone home? No? Fine.
Vote: Hydrad
If you do't want to talk, you'll just go down quiet.
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So to me this feels like Faust is giving up on teproc to ty to mislynch me instead. You didn't really go after me yesterday did you? Why me today?
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So to me this feels like Faust is giving up on teproc to ty to mislynch me instead. You didn't really go after me yesterday did you? Why me today?
How about you read like all the posts I made about this and then come back here when you're caught up?
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Or how about you take a stance on my PGO theory? Or on, I don't know, anything at all? Do you have anything to prove your innocence or are you just going to continue to cook up conspiracy theories?
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So to me this feels like Faust is giving up on teproc to ty to mislynch me instead. You didn't really go after me yesterday did you? Why me today?
How about you read like all the posts I made about this and then come back here when you're caught up?
I've read posts. I'm assuming you mean the ones from today. I see where your coming from with those posts. But my question is more why not have these reasons yesterday. I don't remember you really suspecting me yesterday. If I'm wrong on this one I apologize I'm trying to do a reread on my phone.
PPE: 1
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Or how about you take a stance on my PGO theory? Or on, I don't know, anything at all? Do you have anything to prove your innocence or are you just going to continue to cook up conspiracy theories?
Well your pgo theory just doesn't make sense from my perspective. That means that teproc is scum and I feel the way Es been playing this game is not a scum one. Ya that's not good reasons and I apologize for that but that's the best I can really do at my level.
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So as to why you guys didn't kill the other pgo person. I feel like if you did that and activated it and got 2 kills you would both be heavily suspected as most I think in most spots it's bad for town to use it. And it looks like the scary neighbour hoods were mainly disabled most days anyways
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Would you mind claiming your Motion Detecting results?
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Not that it matters much. Any scum team not including Hydrad would have had enough time to orchestrate a quickhammer by now.
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Given Egork's and S_P's tremendous activity, I kinda doubt it.
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Also this is only true if you're town. Fair enough, but you know.
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Speaking of inactivity, I'm just not going to do a full reread. I could maybe find the time, but I'm not super interested in 20 pages of bickering. So I'll do targeted rereads ofpeople whose alignment are in doubt... by which I mean I'm not rereading faust, and if that loses us the game because he's somehow town I'm very sorry, but I'll live with that.
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Given Egork's and S_P's tremendous activity, I kinda doubt it.
Maybe not Egor, with his QT access problems. But scott/you I think would have planned ahead for this and would have been ready to hammer. And I don't think Egor is scum anyway.
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Speaking of inactivity, I'm just not going to do a full reread. I could maybe find the time, but I'm not super interested in 20 pages of bickering. So I'll do targeted rereads ofpeople whose alignment are in doubt... by which I mean I'm not rereading faust, and if that loses us the game because he's somehow town I'm very sorry, but I'll live with that.
How convenient.
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Question for you: if Hydrad were to flip scum, would you then reconsider your read on me?
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Convenient how ? I could reread you and say you're clearly scum, I've done that already... I just don't think I'm capable of changing my mind on this anymore, so I won't waste time.
In fact, vote: faust as a prelude.
PPE : Unlikely. Maybe. I doubt it. I'm not reconsidering it today in any case.
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Convenient how ? I could reread you and say you're clearly scum, I've done that already... I just don't think I'm capable of changing my mind on this anymore, so I won't waste time.
Convenient because you know there's nothing out that that supports your read on me.
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Funny. I reread you in day 3 or 4 I think, and made my case there. That you haven't been lynched is frankly a miracle (for you) as your posts might as well all be "HI I'M SCUM HOW'S IT GOING", so I don't really need to make a case, I just need whichever townie is too sleepy to realise this to wake the hell up.
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Like, all game I've been pointing out the way you are constantly manipulating and outright lying about stuff, and no one seems to really care. It's like no one's ever played with town!faust before, because they should know this is not it.
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How anyone can think any post you make is anywhere near genuine is frnakly beyond me.
Do you see why i'm not interested in reading you now ? Ok.
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Funny. I reread you in day 3 or 4 I think, and made my case there. That you haven't been lynched is frankly a miracle (for you) as your posts might as well all be "HI I'M SCUM HOW'S IT GOING", so I don't really need to make a case, I just need whichever townie is too sleepy to realise this to wake the hell up.
Sure. This is exactly how I play as scum. That is probably why I won the "scum player of the year" award.
I think your "case" was basically quoting two posts from me and then saying "I don't even need to continue, it's obvious from this".
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Funny. I reread you in day 3 or 4 I think, and made my case there. That you haven't been lynched is frankly a miracle (for you) as your posts might as well all be "HI I'M SCUM HOW'S IT GOING", so I don't really need to make a case, I just need whichever townie is too sleepy to realise this to wake the hell up.
Sure. This is exactly how I play as scum. That is probably why I won the "scum player of the year" award.
I think your "case" was basically quoting two posts from me and then saying "I don't even need to continue, it's obvious from this".
Well, you are going to win, so...
Besides you're a much better town than scum player, and if this is a town performance from you, it's by far (and yes I do remember DWII) your worst.
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Besides you're a much better town than scum player, and if this is a town performance from you, it's by far (and yes I do remember DWII) your worst.
Likewise.
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Oh, if we are both town we are beyond horrible at this game, that's for sure.
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Speaking of Hydrad.
Day 1
Theory talk.
huh. While sleeping you guys did like 3 pages...
So I've caught up and I guess I'll do a mini post of what I thought.
So basically WW does his slip thing. I first think nothing of it.
Then people start making points to it and I'm like hey this is ok I could do a day 1 lynch for this.
Then people keep making even more points for it and I'm like dang did we catch day 1 scum here?
And then egork comes out of nowhere and makes me think oh... So unless WW is a god of slipping I think hes town. And I think egork is town as well then because if WW is town I think scum!egork would or kept quiet.
If WW flips scum I'd have to revisit that but right now i think both are town.
PPE:7
calm down you guys (I've updated this PPE thing like 3 times...)
Speaking of faust's constant lying in this game, another example. When faust reread Hydrad, he said this post was agreeing with the consensus about WW and Egork being town. Patently false again ! No one mentions Egork being townie for pointing out WW's slip before this post (I personally don't think he is, but whatever).
This is also a constructive post. scum!Hydrad is not this constructive. Never. He hedges on everything and only has vague things to say : this is Hydrad taking a strong position as day 1 is barely starting. This is not scum!Hydrad, it just isn't.
But let's continue.
ADK isn't online and I don't know where we stand either, so I'll do one
RR: gkrieg, limetime, yuma
limetime: 2.7, rr
ww: ss, teproc
yuma: ww
scott: faust
teproc: scott
I think this is where we are at
ah thanks.
Vote: RR
That's significantly less townie.
hmm so RR almost got lynched kinda. thats interesting. He claimed. And while people are annoyed at him it seems to have partly done its job so you can't fully blame him.
Although there seems to be a decent chance he would still be fine even if he didn't claim. So I guess we will never know.
Scummy.
The Joseph vote is less scummy (everyone was wanting to lynch Joseph, Hydrad not restating what everyone else was saying is understandable).
Day 2
ok so anyways. we are assuming Joeseph was a doctor right. If he wasn't and the doctors targetted someone other then the IC I think doctors should claim anyways as there is almost certainly a scum in your group.
The only other option is if scum either cancelled the doctor or they got roleblocked. Oh I guess they could of just not used the power either. But that would be kinda the first point where scum knew that the power wasn't used kinda thing.
So for now lets assume hes the doctor.
I guess we are at a base 50% that scum knew Joseph was a doctor by having 1 in each room.
uhhhh. I have no idea how to calculate the fact of having a scum in the doctor room... probably like another 30% or something? hmm thats just a guess from my head though.
ok so both are high chances.
But even if scum has the 1-1-1 setup there is a high chance that one of the 1's is in the doctor room still. So ya I feel like lynching from doctor is good today.
although then we might need a claim kinda thing. I think its best if only doctors claim but I guess hold off on that as someone might point something out to me and change my mind.
Not a super strong argument, but not one scum wants people to believe in certainly.
Vote: Limetime
I still think going after doctors is the correct choice.
Second vote on Limetime at that point, making him a competing wagon to me.
Vote: Limetime
I still think going after doctors is the correct choice.
Why? The doc part. Not why WW...
I think the odds are the best for finding scum there basically.
And again. I Am going to ask why?
hmm. i guess if I was scum I wouldn't have caught onto Josephs semi claim there and trusted it enough to make the shot. So I just feel like scum probably was more certain to be able to do that. But maybe I'm just bad at the game :P
See, the thing is I can see scum!Hydrad playing dumb like this : maybe he didn't notice it but his partners did, so he's using that to lie. But I don't know why he'd do that to justify a bus ?
hi gkreig!
Vote: gkrieg
The vote reset could have been a way for Hydrad to get out of his bus (Limetime had 4 votes before the reset, so the wagon was threatening), but he stays on. Don't think scum!Hydrad is known for heavy bussing, will have to check on that.
oh boy... i should of jumped on RR before everyones at L-1. Now its actually my choice. This is annoying.
I'm still feeling like hitting RR though.
faust finds this scummybecause Hydrad's position on me was pretty clear (town), and he had expressed suspicion of RR multiple times before. Sure. But, as someone who was in a similar position, the RR wagon made me dislike the lynch more and more, and feel like RR was pretty much a default lynch... it was better than me, but I wasn't super enthusiastic about it, and I think this is where Hydrad's coming from here. I'm putting this down as null.
OH I was just about to vote gkrieg and then someone said it was l-1 now what do I do :(
When did you get here?
Just when I posted that pretty much.
Seems like gkrieg is the lynch today. Vote: ww then
oh I thought there were more vote: gkrieg
This is plain weird. Of course WW was an obvious target for scum theoretically, so that first one seems like deflection... but then why not stick with it (gkrieg was clearly going to be lynched there, the only reason he had ess votes was because people wanted time to reread) ? Especially given that Hydrad had bussed hard the previous day ? It doesn't really make sense, and that's townie in the case of Hydrad I think.
OH I was just about to vote gkrieg and then someone said it was l-1 now what do I do :(
When did you get here?
Just when I posted that pretty much.
Seems like gkrieg is the lynch today. Vote: ww then
I don't get this
At the time I thought gkrieg was already L1 and stuff. So I was curious if others would jump ship or try to push you wagon if I made one. But then I saw the gkrieg only had 2 votes so I went him instead
OH I was just about to vote gkrieg and then someone said it was l-1 now what do I do :(
When did you get here?
Just when I posted that pretty much.
Seems like gkrieg is the lynch today. Vote: ww then
I don't get this
At the time I thought gkrieg was already L1 and stuff. So I was curious if others would jump ship or try to push you wagon if I made one. But then I saw the gkrieg only had 2 votes so I went him instead
Curious... why? What did you expect to happen?
Ok so basically I don't like it when there is only one lunch possibility as I think it goes us like 0 info. As scum can go along with it if it's in town and get no blame really. So I like having a second wagon to make people actually choose which one they want to go into and we can get more info. Like say gkrieg is town and you scum or vice versa. If the wagon is only on gkrieg scum either goes oh cool free town lunch. Or they go well guess I'll bus my teammate. But if I make a second wagon on you then they have to choose between oh maybe I can save gkrieg by killing ww or. Oh let's try to get some cred by not being in gkriegs wagon.
So really it gives us more things to analyze I think and I think that helps us out. Does that answer the question?
See ? Why would scum do this, especially when gkrieg is scum and super likely to be lynched ?
If we are doing wanna lynch kinda thing. Heres mine. Although I feel like I just said this a bit ago.
Faust > egork > SS > S_P > Teproc.
WW I don't want to lynch today as I feel like if he is town he might get killed tonight or something. But If I did lynch him he would be behind egork.
Oh yeah, this. I was kinda furious at Hydrad for mentioning it, because I was thinking the exact same thing : I actually thought WW had a good chance of being scum, but didn't want him to be a big subject of discussion because if he was town he would definitely be killed. The more we talked about it being scum, the less strong this argument would be, because scum could conceivably try to frame him, maybe. So I do think Hydrad is being anti-town there, but I also thinks his reasoning is not something scum thinks about, not during the day.
Right, so Hydrad is town. There's some scummy stuff on day 1, but it gets easily overshadowed by the rest (and day 1 starts off very townie).
It also helps that he's someone who was resisting the silverspawn/teproc choice on day 4. Now you (speaking to the PGO townie here) don't know this of course, but scum had to be in control of lynches in day 4, because it ended with two townies at L-1. I guess it comes back to thinking faust is scum, but really you should be thinking that anyway, so...
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And now for the tough part.
EgorK
Facts for future:
My firstpost in the neighborhood QT was at 10:20 PM (EST) on March 6. Both other neighbors posted (one message each) before me. I posted a thought in there and there was no response.
There was no mod announcement to say who was in the neighborhood.
Thread locked at 7:00 PM (EST) on March 7. I'm assuming all of these (including scum QT) closed around the same time. That's enough time for scum to share who was in my neighborhood if one of my neighbors is scum.
So, readin through I noticed that WW either had not noticed that scum has a daychat or cleverly planted fake townslip
Still not swayed either way by this. Scum is more likely to notice, town might be more likely to point it out, so I just don't think it's really indicative. Worth noting that he's not actually taking a position here on the authenticity of the slip, in fact :
Well, I want to sleep on what I just finished reading. At first I thout that how that slip was construed was scummy (as he had to use parenthes to include scum QT), but rereading post it makes more sense now
Also I think we should of course discuss setup/general things, but if there is any decision involved I would trust gkrieg calling shots. Well, I would trust myself as well, but not town as whole as it is tainted
Ppe 6
scum!Egork might have hoped it would look fake ? Not super likely, but he left that option open, and posted this after most people agreed it was a townslip (yes, I didn't, sue me). The whole appealing to the IC is scummy business though. ICs know less than everybody else, and ... well faust was doing it too which makes itscummy by association in this particular game. But really, buddying the IC is traditionally a scummy thing.
oh lulz scum has daychat.
well in that case vote: Limetime
Can you explain how these two things are related?
that's easy; WW isn't scum, so it's someone else. Limetime is the first choice that comes to mind.
So I read more in your words then there are (like he plays first time here, but has no questions, can he ask them in scum QT?)
Actually vote: limetime. Limetime, can you answer, do you have any experience playing forum mafia?
oh lulz scum has daychat.
well in that case vote: Limetime
Can you explain how these two things are related?
that's easy; WW isn't scum, so it's someone else. Limetime is the first choice that comes to mind.
So I read more in your words then there are (like he plays first time here, but has no questions, can he ask them in scum QT?)
Actually vote: limetime. Limetime, can you answer, do you have any experience playing forum mafia?
If Limetime started asking question in the mafia QT, his partners would just tell him to post them in the main thread. I don't really see any reason to believe this is scum!Limetime.
Or it was too late to do that. Anyway, I'd wait for answer on my question
Sorry, unexpected trip until Saturday. Would still have time to read and probably post a little/
Also between Teproc ans SP I think SP comes out as scummy, but this is more of a gut feeling. Still want answer from Limetime
This feels like coaching... but that doesn't make a lot of sense given daychat... except EgorK apparently has trouble accessing QTs ? I land on null.
I agree with faust on Joseph. I think this warrants Vote: Joseph
I still find Limetime scummy, but between them I'd choose Joseph.
Also, can someone educate me on how to read RR? I honestly can't
Remember when faust drove the Joseph wagon all the way and then pinned it on me for hammering ? That happened. Egork feels a bit townier here, especially the thing about RR. Though he does list two people he finds scumm and chooses the town one... but Limetime wasn't under that much pressure there.
What is the vote count? Faust made pretty good case on RR, I'm tempted to join
PPE: about a page
Vote: RR
At that point in D2, it's looking like it's between RR and Limetime, so this doesn't look good.
Yep, definitely want to hear gkrieg and WW stories
Early day 3. A cautious approach, after faust already voted gkrieg and I agreed but expressed a similar sentiment to Egork here. Could be hedging, but it would make sense to me to have both scum partners bus hard here, so I think this is townie.
I just do not see scum going to yuma unless they are sure he is not protected. So, Vote: gkrieg
Also, was there successful motion detection?
L-1 (unannounced). Never mind then, back to being scummy because of the above (I think it's pretty likely both scum bussed gkrieg, can't remember what S_P did).
A lot to read through
Teproc trying to bargain with me into lynching either faust or SP - I do not like that
Leaning townie on that reaction, I do think town would be suspicious of that.
Also if Teproc and faust is scum team they played this game out of this world good
That's relatively townie too, because insane paranoia is townie.
And then there's the PGO stuff : Egork resisted using the PGO. Could easily be a ploy for towncred... the fact is, given that I think Hydrad is town, I have to believe scum decided not to use the PGO. So... if you're goint to not use it, might as well be clear about it and get towncred for it right ?
Meh. On to S_P I guess, I'm not really convinced either way on EgorK.
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Speaking of faust's constant lying in this game, another example. When faust reread Hydrad, he said this post was agreeing with the consensus about WW and Egork being town. Patently false again ! No one mentions Egork being townie for pointing out WW's slip before this post (I personally don't think he is, but whatever).
Lying = not checking posts before and after when rereading someone.
This is also a constructive post. scum!Hydrad is not this constructive. Never. He hedges on everything and only has vague things to say : this is Hydrad taking a strong position as day 1 is barely starting. This is not scum!Hydrad, it just isn't.
It's not a "strong position" by any reasonable definition of the phrase.
See, the thing is I can see scum!Hydrad playing dumb like this : maybe he didn't notice it but his partners did, so he's using that to lie. But I don't know why he'd do that to justify a bus ?
So on one hand, you don't expect scum!Hydrad to be able to take a single position, on the other hand you don't think he plays dumb?
The vote reset could have been a way for Hydrad to get out of his bus (Limetime had 4 votes before the reset, so the wagon was threatening), but he stays on. Don't think scum!Hydrad is known for heavy bussing, will have to check on that.
I feel like it happened before, cannot really point to a game though.
This is plain weird. Of course WW was an obvious target for scum theoretically, so that first one seems like deflection... but then why not stick with it (gkrieg was clearly going to be lynched there, the only reason he had ess votes was because people wanted time to reread) ? Especially given that Hydrad had bussed hard the previous day ? It doesn't really make sense, and that's townie in the case of Hydrad I think.
[...]
The whole treatment of the gkrieg wagon is just Hydrad trying to stay within his meta, no more, no less.
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In general it's rich that Teproc thinks I'm scum and then takes pretty easy-to-fake examples for why Hydrad is town. If I really was scum, with daychat I could have easily coached Hydrad into saying these things.
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Right so there's S_P's whole posting style, which I find scummy because it's all reasonable and quiet and agreeable.
We disagree early on about WW's slip : he thinks it's a fake townslip and I think if anything it's a scumslip. I still have no idea how the former makes any sense, but that's probably townie, because not making sense is townie (unless you're faust). Like, it's based on the idea that scum!WW would fake something that isn't even close to looking like a townslip (but S_P argues that it does look like a townslip at first glance). Again, makes zero sense to me...
I still like the Yuma vote. I think more people should like it, too.
Eh. How do you feel about Teproc? Out of the two, he comes across as more disingenuous to me.
I don't know, I could see him believing what he's saying. I'd say it's like Yuma > Teproc > Faust > Silver.
Not sure yet where e (playing defense) and Scott (commenting but not voting) come in.
Well I would have voted but it seemed like there were a lot of people voting for you and I was too lazy to check the vote count.
But anyway, the daychat thing makes you look pretty solidly towny to me now. I mean I suppose it's possible that you did some crazy mastermind nested fake slip thing, but if that's the case, I'm pretty sure we just lose and you get MVP.
And then when the actual townslip is found, which is to say something with which the previous argument could work, he just accepts it as a townslip. Now that I find scummy.
Anyway, I think vote: Teproc is best for now. The whole thing looks to me like he's really trying to catch someone for something, trying to get a big case rolling, but the actual arguments he makes, aside from not really making sense, just sound...fake.
Well, it is an accurate description of how I play early D1 (making mountains out of molehills to get the game rolling), but it's also OMGUS, so... null.
Then we fight a lot, whatever. Actually not whatever, rereading it I'm feeling a bit townier on S_P. It feels like what we're arguing about is completely alignment-irrelevant though, and scum obviously loves to get into that.
There are a few mentions of Limetime being inactive, nothing particularly notable.
Then there's the thing I'm still not interested in talking about. Don't get much from that aside from, you know, rage.
Noo mention of Limetime, despite him being a wagon on day 2
And then we get to day 3.
But WW immediately bought into the "there has to be scum among Doctors" narrative. That's not a winning strategy for scum.
Well I think since yesterday, the docs should have been going pretty hard after each other, it's actually weird to me that they weren't doing that more. From their perspective it was like a 60% chance each other was scum I think instead of like 30%. Everything changes today, except I think we can't know the probabilities exactly without knowing what neighborhood yuma was in (which I'm not saying someone should claim). My intuition says that the probability a doc is scum actually goes down today relative to a random player, but the fact that yuma was NK'd is a little odd. Really it's odd in any situation though. If they went for him knowing he wasn't protected, they should be aware of how that looks for them.
It's possible I guess that scum doesn't have a doc, and they killed yuma hoping that would make it really look like they do have a doc, so it sets up two mislynches, which, if that actually happens, wins them the game. So it would be a pretty risky play but I guess they might think it's worth it if they think it could potentially win them the game.
It would have made a lot more sense in any case if RR hadn't claimed RB. They might have thought the RB's would think they blocked the kill, except RR's claim means they should have known that wasn't possible. Or maybe they just forgot about it...though honestly out of the players alive I don't think you could pick three of them that wouldn't think about those kinds of things.
I was going to vote for gkrieg but apparently he's at L-1. Well I don't think WW is off the table. I'm a little wary of how quickly the wagon on gkrieg just went. There are still some important probabilities to do today I think.
PPE like a million
See, this is what I'm talking about when I say S_P's posting style. Like, read that and tell me what S_P thinks about yuma dying and what that means regarding the doctor's alignment. I'll wait.
See what I mean ? The whole post you think he's saying doctors aren't scummy from yuma's death and that it might be all a big scum gambit... and then he says he wants to vote gkrieg but he's at L-1, and WW should be possible too... and then he says he's weary of the quickwagon !
I know I said earlier that I expected both scum to bus : but this makes evenmore sense to me. faust goes hard on the bus, and S_P goes "oh my god what a quick wagon ! Abort, abort ! By the way maybe scum took a crazy gambit ! And look at how lynchable WW is !". So I find this very, very scummy.
Yeah I think at least on the surface D3 looks really bad for silverspawn...on the one hand, I sort of get the argument that why would he do that when it was clear gkrieg was going down anyway, but really I think he was pretty committed from the beginning to defending the docs, and then he just wants to look consistent (changing your mind at the end of the day looks like a desperation hammer). Plus, I feel like silverspawn is the sort of player who actually really takes hard evidence into account, and doesn't discard it in favor of reads, which is, well...why I wish I had had more time yesterday to do probabilities. But I still don't really get him just ignoring the arguments that were being made against the docs there. I guess I can sympathize with the concern that the wagon was going fast with no real opposition, although if silver is scum, then he was that opposition, so that would make sense too.
So I guess that means I agree with Teproc on something...I'm not sure how I feel about that. But I think silverspawn's D3 looks so much like what I would expect from scum. I do want to reread him later though because I honestly don't remember much else from him this game, and now we can look for other partner interactions. But I hate rereading...
vote: silverspawn
Pretty obvious, but would be so as both alignments.
I'm a little wary of faust because I feel like he's agreed with me on basically everything this game. At first I thought Teproc's case on him looked really solid, but then faust's defense looked really solid too. My gut says one of {faust, Teproc} is scum, and I think it's more likely Teproc, but at this point I'm worried that it's just a bias that I'm carrying over from earlier in the game.
Actually...I feel like this whole game I've mentally just given faust a pass because he's agree with me on everything and assumed Teproc is scum because he disagrees with me on everything. Now I'm super worried this whole time scum!faust has been doing this to get me on his side.
Although why does scum buddy me specifically, that seems like something people always bring up but in practice doesn't really happen.
This is very townie though, ugh.
Actually, I've been thinking about it and I don't think silverspawn as scum makes a lot of sense. Mostly for the reason faust is saying I'm not scum, which I feel like applies much better to silverspawn, since he was actively defending gkrieg yesterday, whereas I was mostly just late to the party. Actually, I'm not really convinced that the yuma NK implies that scum was planning on gkrieg dying the next day, because why would they want that? The argument I guess is just that scum was going to bus to look good, and that's worth sacrificing one of them to do it? I just don't buy that. But on the other hand, there's not really any other good explanation for it. Let's see:
1. Scum plans on trading gkrieg for yuma, thinking the 1-for-1 trade will work out in their favor
a. They think yuma is particularly worth killing for some reason, or
b. They think gkrieg is going down anyway, or
c. They think the towncred they get from bussing gkrieg is worth it
2. Scum doesn't consider the consequences of killing yuma
a. They just didn't think about how it would look, or
b. They didn't think of yuma as a likely NK candidate
Right now I think 2b is actually the most likely option. This whole time, we've been talking about it like yuma was an IC and a super obvious doc target and of course scum would have foreseen this and so shooting him and implicating the docs was a deliberate choice, but really there's just so many assumptions in that line of reasoning that any of them could have failed and not been incriminating. So actually, in that case, that would make silver look really scummy, because there IS reason for him to defend his partner there. So now I think I've convinced myself again. I'd like to go back and look for partner interactions...I know I keep saying that but it's because I know it's important but I'm too lazy to do it.
Also townie. Followed by a silver reread thatn concludes on not being so interested in a silver lynch anymore.
And then there's a lot of frustration aimed at me. I can empathize.
Alright. I think it's faust/EgorK. S_P took a very unfortaunte stance on day 3, one that looks even worse because of his particular posting style, but he looks very townie after that, much more than Egork ever does.
So now that I've somewhat done due diligence, I'm kinda done with this game, wake me up when you're ready to lynch someone who is not Hydrad or me, S_P.
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A Brief History of Hydrad Bussing
Mafia LI : Silo Mafia
Day 1, Hydrad votes for scum!faust, sheeping a WW case. Stays there for a long time while it doesn't get any traction. He gets lynched on day 2.
Mafia LIV : Musical Mafia
Votes for WW, sheeping an ADK (town) case. The wagon gets pretty big, Hydrad stays on it.
Mafia LV : Mafia Holiday !
Busses Awaclus on day 3. The third scum had been lynched on day 1 (with and Awaclus had defended him a lot. Hydrad bussed on day 3 as part of an ashersky-led quicklynch.
Mafia LVII : Blarnia Mafia
This in interesting. He's a scum gladiator, he challenges his scum partner Awaclus on day 3 and gets lynched.
Mafia LXI : It's a Beautiful World Mafia
Never votes for his partners.
Mafia LXIX : GOP Mafia
Votes for Edmund on day 2, sheeping TA (town). Stays on as the wagon stagnates at 2-3 votes.
Mafia LXXII : Marvel Heroes
Votes iguana day 1, a relatively popular wagon at that point, though it dies out pretty quickly and Hydrad moves on, pretty quickly putting him down as a null-to-town read.
Day 3 he votes faust early putting him at L-1. Then moves to competing wagon EgorK.
Day 4 he gets put in a situation where he no choice but to hammer faust, and does.
Mafia LXXV : Cupcake Mafia
Gets lynched day 1.
Alright. So that's more bussing than I expected, but Hydrad never makes a case on these people. Never. He did make a case on Limetime : his whole "scum is in the doctor QT" reasoning (on day 2). He talked about him more than he usually does with his partners too.
Worth noting, re faust's argument above : faust has been scum with Hydrad a lot. Everytime Hydrad is in non-constructive mode. Granted there was no daychat, but still : more lying !
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Vote Count 5.2
Hydrad (1): faust
faust (1): Teproc
Not Voting (3): Hydrad, EgorK, scott_pilgrim
With 5 alive it takes 3 to lynch. Day Five begins now and ends at 7 pm forum time Monday, April 25th.
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Worth noting, re faust's argument above : faust has been scum with Hydrad a lot. Everytime Hydrad is in non-constructive mode. Granted there was no daychat, but still : more lying !
"It's not lying, but it's still lying!"
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Huh ? You're saying if you were scum you would coach Hydrad into being constructive. In the past you have no done that.
Daychat is great and all, but it does not result in you micromanaging your partners, come on.
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Huh ? You're saying if you were scum you would coach Hydrad into being constructive. In the past you have no done that.
Daychat is great and all, but it does not result in you micromanaging your partners, come on.
Well, I guess you're the expert.
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Hilarious.
Oh, and one thing I forgot to mention in myS_P reread : he was roleblocked (by me) night 3, and the kill went through. I think this is very significant, because S_P hadn't been under tremendous pressure (apart from me) and would have been the obvious choice for killing in a faust/SP team (yeah there's WIFOM but still).
Obviously this is rather irrelevant if you think Hydrad is scum, but you shouldn't, so.
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Request prods on scott and Egor.
Come on, guys!
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On that we can agree.
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sounds good
Vote: faust
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vote: faust
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Really ? Well, we suck.
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S_P and Egork then ?
Should have made my vote a fake one.
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Or S_P/Hydrad and I decidedly should give up any hope of ever reading Hydrad.
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faust has been lynched! He was a Vanilla Townie!
The Mafia team of gkrieg13, Hydrad and scott_pilgrim wins!
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hurrah.
Sorry teproc :(
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Final Vote Count
Hydrad (1): faust
faust (3): Teproc, Hydard, scott_pilgrim
Not Voting (1): EgorK
With 5 alive it took 3 to lynch.
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Classic "Keep Faust alive until everyone assumes he's scum" tactic.
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SHould have stuck with the "scum is watching town auto-destruct" theory...
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Classic "Keep Faust alive until everyone assumes he's scum" tactic.
That had nothing to do with it... the argument was actually never brought up. Because it's a terrible argument.
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I thought Hydrad was town this game, too :(
Though I wanted to lynch SP way back in the earlier days and no one thought it was cool
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I'm pretty sure I would have messed it up and lynched Faust today, too.
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I thought Hydrad was town this game, too :(
Though I wanted to lynch SP way back in the earlier days and no one thought it was cool
As much as I'll take the fault for Hydrad, I started calling for S_P's lynch five seconds into day 1. My roleblocking result blinded me because of my Hydrad read actually.
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hurrah.
Sorry teproc :(
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Classic "Keep Faust alive until everyone assumes he's scum" tactic.
That had nothing to do with it... the argument was actually never brought up. Because it's a terrible argument.
I was only skimming, so sorry if I misrepresented your thinking. It was more my own impressions reading along in the thread. I couldn't help thinking that you and Faust looked scummy. Scott would have been my other guess, but not Hydrad.
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I thought Hydrad was town this game, too :(
Though I wanted to lynch SP way back in the earlier days and no one thought it was cool
As much as I'll take the fault for Hydrad, I started calling for S_P's lynch five seconds into day 1. My roleblocking result blinded me because of my Hydrad read actually.
That was pretty lucky for us. If you didn't RB him it might of gotten SP lynched. and in this setup if we get down to 1 scum it seems really hard to win as town will still have their PR's
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Fun fact: Hydrad always performs the Mafia kills!
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Fun fact: Hydrad always performs the Mafia kills!
shhhh
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Mod QT (http://quicktopic.com/52/H/P5tyen7KL8N)
Scum QT (http://quicktopic.com/52/H/Uc5qGNSviHct)
Speccy (http://quicktopic.com/52/H/ZVgDwXbEaHp)
Speccy 2.0 (http://quicktopic.com/52/H/vFEC3e4dsqqPu)
Roleblocker Neighborhood (http://quicktopic.com/52/H/X2QN8a9JS44)
PGO Neighborhood (http://quicktopic.com/52/H/DKtUkQGXPRDEq)
Doctor Neighborhood (http://quicktopic.com/52/H/wYkPDG7BMhr)
Motion Detector Neighborhood (http://quicktopic.com/52/H/jF98Q9nMieJ)
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Yay! Go team!
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What did people think of the setup? Interesting? Boring? Unbalanced? Is the PGO power pointless? I think scum got pretty lucky with their spread, they knew the whole setup from the start.
MVP is tough, Hydrad and scott both played very solid games. I'm leaning Hydrad but would be interested in hearing the scum team's thoughts.
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I'm really glad this is over because I was getting really stressed. I really didn't want to bus Hydrad, but I was pretty much going to have to because of PoE...I was already fairly committed to a town read on EgorK, and I don't think I could have possibly argued for a faust/Teproc scum team, which would leave Hydrad on any other possible scum team.
I started feeling bad for Teproc later on...a lot of my frustration was legitimate. I think we both just saw everything in this game very differently. Sorry if I said anything insulting or condescending.
I think this is a really cool set-up. There are a lot of powers that all have the potential to be amazing, but are extremely difficult to use. Like early on, I was terrified of the roleblockers, because I thought if we get blocked, not only does that catch scum, but all three RB's are then cleared as town. That's sort of an exaggeration, but it was still scary.
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I definitely thought that as the only all-town neighborhood the Roleblockers were going to have a much larger effect on this game but they ended up pretty neutered.
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Oh, and to answer the question at the end of the scum QT, no I would not consider attempting a kill and being blocked as a "no-kill". My ruling was to prevent the possibility of a stalemate, which the Roleblocker situation would not be.
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I feel like for me at first I thought the PR's were weak for town.
But the closer to the end of the game you get the stronger the PR's seem to become. As scum can never really get rid of powers and town will always be left with some at the end of the game. So in a way its like all we did for kills and lynches was hit VT's every day unless we killed a whole neighborhood.
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Well... that wasn't what I expected at all.
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Yay! Go team!
Didn't you win either way?
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Yay! Go team!
Didn't you win either way?
ADK said only a scum win would count for me at this point
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I should have pushed Limetime more D2. But, well stuff.
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Yay! Go team!
Didn't you win either way?
ADK said only a scum win would count for me at this point
Fair enough, you were a pretty scummy IC
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Yay! Go team!
Didn't you win either way?
ADK said only a scum win would count for me at this point
Fair enough, you were a pretty scummy IC
ya I don't really like being IC
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I guess I really cannot read Teproc.
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I think the Hydrad-not-getting-quickhammered-point should have made a bigger impact, though.
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Or maybe not, since it only holds if Faust is town.
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I think the Hydrad-not-getting-quickhammered-point should have made a bigger impact, though.
Right. But I didn't want to point it out to much because then it would turn into me vs faust pretty much. And I was hoping faust might turn onto teproc at somepoint still.
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I wonder where things would have gone if Teproc hadn't voted... scott would have had to take a stance at some point, and arguing against Hydrad didn't really make sense for him.
But I don't know if I could have convinced myself to not lynch Teproc D4, even if he successfully blocked.
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Oh, and to answer the question at the end of the scum QT, no I would not consider attempting a kill and being blocked as a "no-kill". My ruling was to prevent the possibility of a stalemate, which the Roleblocker situation would not be.
But that would have been a stalemate too if Teproc was scum: he could just always block his partner.
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Going by the speccy, I really feel like I'm playing mafia with a built-in timer: I have to lynch scum quickly enough or everyone automatically assumes that I am scum.
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Toss a Hydrad in there, so
{Limtetime/Gkrieg, SS, SP, Hydrad}
no ordering there.
Why don't I listen to myself! Or, why didn't I think this earlier.
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Going by the speccy, I really feel like I'm playing mafia with a built-in timer: I have to lynch scum quickly enough or everyone automatically assumes that I am scum.
Athletes at the top of their profession have the same problem. Have to do amazing things, have to keep winning, or else they're just one-trick ponies.
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Mafia 78 (Mar. 7, – Apr. 19, 2016) (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=14877.0;all)
Insomnia Mafia by A Drowned Kernel (MVP:)
Player list (post count): Roadrunner 7671 (127), gkrieg13- Innocent Child (72), faust (392), silverspawn (198), yuma (206), 2,71828... (94), Hydrad- Mafia Goon (75), EgorK (51), Joseph2302 (47), Limetime- Mafia Goon (14), replaced by gkrieg13 (72), Teproc (320), Witherweaver (222), scott_pilgrim- Mafia Goon (87)
Total posts: 2011 (154.69 per player)
D1 Mislynch: Joseph2302 (VT) by faust, EgorK, silverspawn, 2.71828, scott_piglrim, Hydrad, Teproc
N1 Kill: gkrieg13 (Innocent Child)
D2 Mislynch: Roadrunner7671 (VT) by silverspawn, EgorK, gkrieg13, 2.71828, Teproc, Hydrad
N2 Kill: yuma (VT)
D3 Correct Lynch: gkrieg13 (Mafia Goon) by faust, EgorK, Hydrad, Teproc, Witherweaver
N3 Kill: 2.71828...
D4 Mislynch: silverspawn (VT) by faust, Hydrad, Witherweaver, Teproc
N4 Kill: Witherweaver (VT)
D5 Mislynch: faust (VT) by Teproc, Hydrad, scott_pilgrim
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Going by the speccy, I really feel like I'm playing mafia with a built-in timer: I have to lynch scum quickly enough or everyone automatically assumes that I am scum.
Lose a few more games like this one and you may not have that problem anymore!
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Going by the speccy, I really feel like I'm playing mafia with a built-in timer: I have to lynch scum quickly enough or everyone automatically assumes that I am scum.
Lose a few more games like this one and you may not have that problem anymore!
Well, now I'll just be gone until everyone has forgotten about me!
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Going by the speccy, I really feel like I'm playing mafia with a built-in timer: I have to lynch scum quickly enough or everyone automatically assumes that I am scum.
Or maybe, just maybe it's because you played insanely scummy this game. But you know, you can keep on thinking it's just the evil fds meta.
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At least Teproc was town.
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Going by the speccy, I really feel like I'm playing mafia with a built-in timer: I have to lynch scum quickly enough or everyone automatically assumes that I am scum.
That isn't an accurate assessment of what people think. I mean, I think there were some glib remarks about lynching you cause you had survived... but those were surface jokes. The reads, at least mine, had more to do with how you were playing than that you were still alive.
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Turns out scum really didn't realise killing yuma would make doctors look bad.
I'll gloat about this because I got so many things wrong I might as well point out what I did get right : e was killed because he was townie. Also because they thought leaving every PGO alone would make the PGO townies I guess.
From S_P in the scum QT "I really wish you were a gladiator too, faust."
I had the same reaction...
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Should have kept my scum read on SP after his alteraction with Teproc
Gg
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Why did I discredit SP as scum from my reread earlier in the day? I could have called the team here!
Eh
Vote: Gkrieg
I'm going Gkrieg/Faust/Hydrad team.
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Like two pages ago I said he was scummy and then I 'didn't want to get fooled by Faust' or something silly.
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Does this game have an MVP?
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Uh I could look it over later and see if I remember anything about it