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[Eevee]

I guess that doesn't do much for people who don't know my alignment, though.

[Eevee]

and I still think TA is almost surely town even in that scenario.

[Jimmmmm]

I've asked this before, but I just realised I don't like your answer.

pps, can you please provide detailed reasons as to why you Copped TA?

[yuma]

1. It was pretty late in the day to announce a result.  Of course you don't need to come out with the result immediately, but waiting as long as he did made it look to me like "I need to come up with something before I get lynched".  Well, on the one hand, it makes sense that if he's town he would claim when the pressure builds on him, but on the other hand, it doesn't make sense why he wouldn't have claimed before that point.  I'm not saying this definitely makes him scum, just that a claim late in the day seems like it would be more characteristic of scum than of town.

I disagree. I think town results should be claimed earlier, but claiming later has no merit on distinguishing between town and scum.

2. He stated that his defense of TA was to support TA when his case on Eevee was getting no attention.  I don't think this makes any sense at all; there was never a point where people were talking about lynching TA, who would be the one benefiting from the claim.  If PPS doesn't agree with the case on Eevee (which, if I recall correctly, he did not find it compelling), then that's just totally not a reason to announce that TA is town, since Eevee is being hurt by the claim.  If PPS is actually town, I would think his reason for claiming at that point would have been to make sure the information was available to town were he to be lynched (since there had been several votes on him at that point).  If PPS is actually scum, I think his reason for claiming at that point would have been to make himself look townier.  In the former case though, I don't see why you would cover up that reason, so the latter seems more likely.

So I'm happy with my PPS vote right now.  I will switch if I need to to get a lynch through, but PPS is the only one that I feel like I have a moderately strong scum read on.

this is not what pps said and is taking a few sentences out of context... i'll quote stuff when i don't have a babe in my arms

[yuma]

further more that theory suggesting that pps claimed to move the focus to eevee isn't backed up by what pps has done... he hasn't voted for eevee and he said the case on him was weak and has instead voted for ahoppy and faust.... not eevee

I think what is going on is that people are seeing a supposed "contradiction" in him saying that he wanted to give credence to a case that he didn't agree with... where what pps I think was really trying to do was to give credence to TA who was making the case (regardless of who or what the case was) as few appeared to be taking TA seriously at the time... and then said, that even then he didn't see a lot to the case...

If scum!pps wanted to get eevee mislynched via a claim, he would have said "TA is town, I think his case is good" and would have joined the eevee wagon

[chairs]

I've never read Archetype correctly. I can't even really recall what stood out to me about his scum play in Bankers.

he subbed in for someone? and then was lurky, which was enough for me, but then he got caught out in a lie about something role related that made him obv scum. that was the one time i was right when it was completely obvious... other than then i have been clueless....

so chairs what about the last couple of pages made you vote arch.... has to have been something you can share with the class...

You've been leaning away from the Arch lynch, and I still feel like you're scum, but it's obvious your lynch is out.  You've not been SO against an Archetype lynch as to make me think it's buddying, just the right amount for me to think it's scum trying to gently nudge the needle away from his partner.

[yuma]

I've never read Archetype correctly. I can't even really recall what stood out to me about his scum play in Bankers.

he subbed in for someone? and then was lurky, which was enough for me, but then he got caught out in a lie about something role related that made him obv scum. that was the one time i was right when it was completely obvious... other than then i have been clueless....

so chairs what about the last couple of pages made you vote arch.... has to have been something you can share with the class...

You've been leaning away from the Arch lynch, and I still feel like you're scum, but it's obvious your lynch is out.  You've not been SO against an Archetype lynch as to make me think it's buddying, just the right amount for me to think it's scum trying to gently nudge the needle away from his partner.

so you are voting arch because of things I have done? That makes zero sense... if you think i am scum vote for me! tell me why arch is scummy... not why i am scumm if you are going to vote for him

[Robz888]

^Agreed, and chairs, you did not explain your scumslip accusation. What was it? Vote: chairs until you do.

[yuma]

Compiling all of PPS statements about his claim for clarity: (some are edited for readability):

Well, I'm going to give credence to TA since he is fervently pushing a case. I was a N1 cop and I investigated TA and he turned up a Town result.
I didn't see much utility in divulging this until he started flailing on this case which I'm not wholly impressed by but I admit he is Town. It's also why I gave him a pass on analyzing the D1 wagons wherein he was off-wagon.

So main points are give credence to TA, not the case, doens't like the case, but shows that TA is town... and something to look back on PPS's analysis of day1 wagons (if it corresponds this means that PPS had to establish early on that he would fake claim a result on TA at that point...) * see below

I thought I fairly well breadcrumbed this investigation yesterday. faust pretty much forced me to directly deny it. I didn't reveal my results when I did because of where my wagon was, that would be ridiculous since an obvious move is to lynch me, not to back off on the wagon. I revealed the information because I tend to agree with faust that the time was ripe for it and because TA was starting to look otherwise desperate with his efforts towards Eevee.

......

All that said, AHoppy seems to enthusiastic to move off my wagon now that my lynch looks like a done deal. Thus, he can avoid any suspicion at all tomorrow. Vote: AHoppy

Breadcrumbed yesterday... worth checking (**see below) up on as well. Again his timing makes sense given right before then faust said something about people should have claimed by that point and that TA wasn't being taken seriously... nothing about the case being good or bad or supporting the case itself. Still doesn't vote eevee, votes ahoppy

Whether it is believed or not; I didn't really even know where my wagon stood when I claimed. I claimed at the behest of faust because he had indicated that at that point in the game there must not have been any results or else we would have seen them already. That my results were on TA and TA was floundering  was additional motivation.

very believable given the lack of vote counts in this game. Remember the whole pps is at L-1 thing, panic! that happened a few days before?

I interpreted the repeated cries for an Eevee lynch as floundering since you were becoming visibly frustrated with the lack of response. Maybe it was a poor choice of words. I meant it in the sense of you were making motion to no real effect. While I never saw much to your case on Eevee I felt it deserved some attention because I knew you to be Town and thus revealing the results at least gave it the attention a known Townie deserves.

I didn't mean foundering as in you were in any risk of being lynched or under suspicion.

Consistent with the above.

My off the cuff reads:

Town, won't lynch - pps, TA
strong Town read won't lynch - yuma
slight Town would be hard pressed to lynch - Jimmmmm
null would sheep lynch - Robz, scott, chairs, Eeveee, Archetype
slight to moderate scum would lynch - faust, AHoppy

My initial lean is to sheep my 2 strongest Town reads and vote Eevee.

Considering that faust and Eevee lead the charge on Archetype makes me uneasy about it but I am not opposed to his lynch. I think the Eevee/Arch mutual votes look like they could be scum distancing. If that were the case it would give faust a much higher probability of being town and thus I am willing to Vote: Archetype to see how these 2 behave if it builds.

Eevee in the null would sheep area, but doesn't vote eevee, instead votes arch.

Next quote... consistent with the above as well.


Checking on the things I wanted to check:

*

The D1 votes were almost entirely distributed between 2 wagons. The one wagon we know was on Town and also contained a Town vote. So the distribution of scum votes gets quite limited unless scum was voting off wagon which implicates TA but I am giving him a pass right now.

So yes, I am basing my assumption on the fact that AHoppy nearly got lynched but just couldn't. I thought this much was patently obvious.

**

Do you think I'm scum, pps?

I don't know. I think you are my favorite target for discovering your alignment because if I could know you were town I would be able to set said my suspicions and discover a better focus. If I thought you were for sure scum I'd be voting you right now.

and

I am not calling scum teams and I am not asserting that if TA were scum he somehow has to have 4 partners. What I am saying is that IF TA is scum then a partner is in the mix because there appears to be enough cooperation and/or sheeping to support the idea. I have so many Town reads because when I read each player outside the TA partner lens they come off as Town which I think is a more logical way to read someone if my suspicion on TA is wrong. I mean, I did just say calling pairs is bad, right? When I put on the TA must be Town lens everyone around him appears even Townier.

My read is that PPS has been consistent in 1. his desire to investigate TA 2. investigated TA and had this in mind throughout day2 and 3. was consistent in his reasons for waiting (even if I think those reasons aren't very applicable as I think town results should be claimed in the first 2-3 days).

Yes, it is possible that PPS was very good and very well planned to have an investigation on TA... (but also keep in mind those sorts of breadcrumbs can be dangerous if they are picked up on by town and the player doesn't end up claiming for various reasons) but combined with my town read on him from before and I truly believe PPS's claim.

[faust]

Yeah, I remember how pps' breadcrumbing D1 really tipped me off, and does still. Why do you breadcrumb here? It only gives the scum team hints who to kill - or it provides a consistent narrative for a fakeclaim. pps should explain exactly what he was trying to accomplish with this breadcrumbing.

[Jorbles]

Oh cool, I would play mayo clinic. Otherwise just tagging.

[scott_pilgrim]

I'm not sure how much of what you're saying is responding to what I said.  What I was saying is that, if you're town PPS and you're claiming at the point in time that he did, your reason is that you're worried that the information you have is not going to get out before you die.  Especially since I don't think TA was really under any pressure at all, the reason that PPS gave in that regard feels made up.  I don't think where PPS stands on TA's case is all that relevant to my argument.  I brought it up, saying that if you're town PPS, and you don't like TA's case, it makes even less sense to bring that into the picture of why you're claiming now.  Why would you not just say "I'm claiming now because I don't want to die without getting this information out"?

So, that's all assuming that that's what PPS would do if he's town, and of course I don't know, maybe he actually is town and the reasons he has for claiming when he did are actually what he says they are, but I just don't feel like that would be why you claim when you do if you're town PPS.  Yeah, timing it after faust brings it up also makes sense, but that's not relevant since I think you would do that regardless of whether you're town or scum.

If you're going to argue against my case, you would be showing me why PPS's reason for claiming wouldn't be "to get the information out before he dies", or you would be showing me why TA would really need support at that time (especially given that he didn't even agree with TA's case).

Your last point is good though (that he is consistent with his D1 statement that he would like to investigate TA), I hadn't realized that so I'll think about it.  I still like my PPS vote.  Though I also agree with you and Robz that chairs' vote makes no sense at all.

[scott_pilgrim]

1. It was pretty late in the day to announce a result.  Of course you don't need to come out with the result immediately, but waiting as long as he did made it look to me like "I need to come up with something before I get lynched".  Well, on the one hand, it makes sense that if he's town he would claim when the pressure builds on him, but on the other hand, it doesn't make sense why he wouldn't have claimed before that point.  I'm not saying this definitely makes him scum, just that a claim late in the day seems like it would be more characteristic of scum than of town.

I disagree. I think town results should be claimed earlier, but claiming later has no merit on distinguishing between town and scum.

Would you like to expand on this?  It's probably not relevant now that you brought up his breadcrumbing, but it would make a lot of sense that scum wouldn't want to commit to their claims early in case more cops claim on the same day (especially if they are potentially contradictory, though obviously that's super risky for scum anyway); whereas town doesn't need to worry about it, since they are telling the truth anyway.

[Robz888]

^Agreed, and chairs, you did not explain your scumslip accusation. What was it? Vote: chairs until you do.

Chairs?

[Robz888]

Vote count? Deadline?

[pingpongsam]

I've asked this before, but I just realised I don't like your answer.

pps, can you please provide detailed reasons as to why you Copped TA?

Interesting that you, of all people, would pose this question.

I strongly perceived you and TA to be working me for a lynch early D1. I copped TA to either confirm my suspicions from D1 or to dispel them so I could start looking elsewhere with earnest. I actually had a toss-up last night between investigating TA or Jimmmmm. Both were off wagon but Jimmmmm was on AHoppy while TA was glued to Eevee even then. I interpreted his version of being off-wagon as being the scummier of the two. In fact, his continued insistence towards Eevee looks like the classic D1 off-wagon tee up for the D2 "I tried to tell you guys" mislynch so I am quite grateful I picked him and is I suppose why I even mentioned his Eevee case when I claimed my results.. While I did initially react to your voting me earlier this day I have tended to give you the benefit of the doubt because outside of the TA interactions towards me D1 I am not smelling scum on you and copping TA relieved my suspicions on you otherwise which I had to keep reminding myself of when you continued to press me hard during this day.

In short, I think my choice of target did for me exactly what I needed in order to have a decent focus going into D2.

I'll end with a question of my own, if you were a N1 cop this game who would you have targeted last night?

[Robz888]

I'll end with a question of my own, if you were a N1 cop this game who would you have targeted last night?

I'm not sure Jimm should answer that, really.

[yuma]

I'll end with a question of my own, if you were a N1 cop this game who would you have targeted last night?

I'm not sure Jimm should answer that, really.

I agree, but I can see where PPS is coming from by asking it... but don't think it will serve a conductive purpose in answering it.

[Robz888]

I'll end with a question of my own, if you were a N1 cop this game who would you have targeted last night?

I'm not sure Jimm should answer that, really.

I agree, but I can see where PPS is coming from by asking it... but don't think it will serve a conductive purpose in answering it.

Yeah, it would be different if there was a possibility we would be lynching Jimm today, but I don't think we are.

[pingpongsam]

Yeah, I remember how pps' breadcrumbing D1 really tipped me off, and does still. Why do you breadcrumb here? It only gives the scum team hints who to kill - or it provides a consistent narrative for a fakeclaim. pps should explain exactly what he was trying to accomplish with this breadcrumbing.

In actuality the intent wasn't to breadcrumb, I was being sincere. When faust highlighted how careless I was being I played the "there's no way I'm that dumb" card and I'm not sure I had a better play at that point. In retrospect it proved useful because I did survive and get a result and I was able to point back to that as a breadcrumb but I didn't intend to be quite so bold. The actual intent was to appear to be directing a cop's power to hopefully indicate to scum that I was not the cop they were looking for. Having the suspicion I caught D1 was anxiety inducing because 1) if I got lynched we would definitely lose my PR and 2) if I had to claim to keep from being lynched D1 then I could only pray a doctor existed and the doctor believed me enough to protect me otherwise why would scum not snipe me? I think I played somewhat poorly for my role in that respect but I also felt responsible for eliciting enough behavior to have a worthy target for the night because I ideally i would have copped scum.

[yuma]

Yeah, I remember how pps' breadcrumbing D1 really tipped me off, and does still. Why do you breadcrumb here? It only gives the scum team hints who to kill - or it provides a consistent narrative for a fakeclaim. pps should explain exactly what he was trying to accomplish with this breadcrumbing.

I don't think pps ever intended for it to be a surefire "breadcrumb" like I don't think he was saying "I am going to certainly investigate TA during the night" with his statements. But rather that he wanted to know what alignment TA was, expressed that in the course of day1 scum hunting and then continued along those lines later that night. So it isn't a true breadcrumb... rather it is a consistent trend that either is PPS progressing along natural lines or a very elaborate setup by scum. Given my town read on PPS regardless of all of this I think it is the former.

PPE: PPS Said the same thing

[yuma]

well not exactly the same thing, but good enough for me and obviously PPS's explanation is better as it is coming from him as I am just speculating...

[pingpongsam]

Ah, good point, guys, that does come off as fishing, shit.

Let me put words in his mouth then because I damn near did in the original post but i hate how he does that to me so I refrained.

I'm willing to bet my name was at or near the top of his target wish list. My point being we were at odds and that my choice of target is consistent with being towards those who were actively pursuing a known Townie, namely myself.

[yuma]

If you're going to argue against my case, you would be showing me why PPS's reason for claiming wouldn't be "to get the information out before he dies", or you would be showing me why TA would really need support at that time (especially given that he didn't even agree with TA's case).

Your last point is good though (that he is consistent with his D1 statement that he would like to investigate TA), I hadn't realized that so I'll think about it.  I still like my PPS vote.  Though I also agree with you and Robz that chairs' vote makes no sense at all.

Because claiming obviously gets the information out before he dies... that is a given. It isn't like he could claim and not have the information out.... So I am not sure what to say there....

and I think I have already talked about why PPS claimed in regard to TA--or showed what PPS said--that it was in conjunction and wans't a specific reason.

That is the rub.... You guys want PPS to have a specific reason, but it looks like it was a conglomeration of different things (probably combined with RL stuff) that prompted him to claim when he did. 1. faust saying stuff 2. PPS seeing TA being dismissed 3. getting close to the end of day.

I just don't see what the problem is here.... I think if you are going to convince me your votes for PPS are legitimate you need to show me how his play during day1 and day2 was scummy. Really only Jimmmm has attempted to do that, and I disagree with that case

[sudgy]

Vote Count 2.5

Eevee (4): Twistedarcher, yuma, Archetype, Jimmmmm {L-2}
pingpongsam (1): scott_pilgrim
chairs (1): Robz888
Archetype (4): Eevee, faust, pingpongsam, chairs {L-2}

Not Voting (1): AHoppy

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

Day 2 ends February 7th, 12:00 AM.  In about seven hours.