Dominion Strategy Forum
Miscellaneous => Forum Games => Mafia Game Threads => Topic started by: sudgy on December 07, 2013, 01:11:26 pm
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Welcome to MXXXVI!
This game will have whatever setup you want. Before we start playing, you may vote for any approved setup like you would vote a player. Once we have at least seven people voting and a majority of the votes are for one setup, that setup will be chosen.
We will be using the Diffusion of Power (http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Diffusion_of_Power) setup. Details lower in this post.
Rule are here (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9211.0). If they change during the course of this game, I will decide if it will change the rules of this game. If I decide so, I will post a notice in thread.
This game will have 14 day deadlines and 48 hour night deadlines.
If a majority of votes hasn't been reached by deadline, a no lynch happens.
Player list:
1. Jimmmmm Town Doctor, Killed N3
2. AHoppy
3. Robz888
4. Twistedarcher
5. Archetype
6. Voltaire Town Cop, Killed N1
7. yuma Town Cop, Killed N2
8. chairs Town Cop, Modkilled D3
9. Eevee Town Cop, Lynched D2
10. faust
11. scott_pilgrim
12. pingpongsam
13. nkirbit Teproc Town Doctor, Lynched D1
Setup:
3 Mafia Goons
4-6 Night Specific Docs
4-6 Night Specific Cops
There will be a 1/3 chance of 4 Docs and 6 Cops, 5/5, and 6/4. The mafia will be notified which of the three it is.
Each PR works on one night randomized from N1-N5. Other's player's nights have no effect on this.
Cops and Docs will flip as "Town Cop" and "Town Doc".
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/in
I vote for a small setup. Are there any small setups where almost everyone has a role of some sorts? That might be a fun experiment, something like Modern Community was but with 9-12 players?
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/in as long as it starts after Christmas. I second a small setup, and I want to try a fairly normal game, seeing as my most normal game was mean girls.
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Most likely /in. My preferences:
Medical Mafia (http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Medical_Mafia)
Won't You Be My Neighbor? (http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Won%27t_You_Be_My_Neighbor%3F)
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/in
I third small setup ;D
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"A small setup" can't be voted on...
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"A small setup" can't be voted on...
And, I mean, you can't just vote for "A small setup", you'll have to vote for a specific small setup if you want one.
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I think this would be hilarious on f.ds:
http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Scumhunter%27s_Speed_8p
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I'll likely play.
Some suggestions on setups:
Diffusion of Power (http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Diffusion_of_Power)
Twin Trap (http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Twin_Trap)
Switch Mafia (http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Switch_(Setup))
Duck, Duck, Goose (http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Duck,_Duck,_Goose!)
Bird 7p (http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Bird_7P)
In that order. Diffusion of power looks really fun, simple, but with a hint of complexity. Twin trap is very simple with trackers/watchers as the PRs. Switch Mafia has been done before in MXV, but never saw the full potential as the SK was killed off day1 (sorry Galz). It does have the draw back of potential Night0 kills... Duck, Duck, Goose looks ok and Bird 7 has been done as blitz once and was pretty interesting (it is my go to for mafia games with family/friends).
Not to be a spoil sport, but I won't play either of the two Arch suggested. From experience Medical Mafia just becomes a game that you plug into an excel spreadsheet and go from there (some people seem to like that, I for one don't) and the neighbor game is only for 5 players... To small, but might be fun for blitz? If other people want to do these, I will bow out and let someone else more interested take my spot.
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/tag
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/tag
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/in
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But please hold off for a while at least, unless people are clamoring for it. DW2 hasn't even started yet, and Wonka is only on Day 2.
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But please hold off for a while at least, unless people are clamoring for it. DW2 hasn't even started yet, and Wonka is only on Day 2.
Double meaning: Dynasty Warriors 2 and Doctor Who 2. Let's get them both started so I can open my game!
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/in
vote: c9++
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/tag
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this one is looking fun.
http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Mayo_Clinic
EDIT: and this one
http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Trouble_Communicating
/in
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Oh, sudgy! your OP is wrong. Mafia XXXVI is Dynasty Warriors mafia II. This is Mafia XXXVII.
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this one is looking fun.
http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Mayo_Clinic
EDIT: and this one
http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Trouble_Communicating
/in
Mayo Clinic = "Mayo Clinic is a chaotic 12-player game with each player having a night action to influence the game. It's possible to see a nightphase with anywhere from zero to four nightkills."
Yikes!
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Mayo Clinic = "Mayo Clinic is a chaotic 12-player game with each player having a night action to influence the game. It's possible to see a nightphase with anywhere from zero to four nightkills."
/in
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Mayo Clinic = "Mayo Clinic is a chaotic 12-player game with each player having a night action to influence the game. It's possible to see a nightphase with anywhere from zero to four nightkills."
/in
You took the words right out of my mouth off of my keyboard.
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Vote Count 0.1:
C9++ (1): nkirbit
Not voting: Everyone else.
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vote: Scumhunter Speed 8p
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vote: mayo clinic
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Vote: Duck duck goose
Vote: mayo clinic
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If we get two votes, vote: diffusion of power Otherwise, keep it on mayo clinic.
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Only one vote.
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Darn.
Vote: Mayo Clinic
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/tag
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/in
vote: mayo clinic
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Vote Count 0.2:
C9++ (1): nkirbit
Scumhunter Speed 8p (1): ashersky
mayo clinic (3): mail-mi, Archetype, chairs
Not voting: Everyone else.
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Vote: C9++
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I want something normal. So Mayo clinic doesn't sound appealing to me
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I want something normal. So Mayo clinic doesn't sound appealing to me
I'm up next in this queue, and will be introducing asher9++. You'll like it.
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Alright. I guess I'll /out from this if mayo clinic gets picked. If that's not fair, fine, I can /out now. sudgy?
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I'll wait for Asher++ too, I suppose. Mayo Clinic doesn't do it for me, either.
/out.
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Well, I wasn't trying to take away business from this game.
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Well, I don't want to be in 2 games at once... Sorry sudgy! I'll stay if it stays more normal, but mayo clinic seems a little RMM to me...
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guys I think at this point mayo clinic probably isn't happening...
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Scumhunters Speed 8P people! Fast, actually works lurking into the setup!
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Vote: Matrix or 2of4 or something simple
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guys I think at this point mayo clinic probably isn't happening...
Not with that attitude it isn't.
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guys I think at this point mayo clinic probably isn't happening...
thank goodness. I don't see how that doesn't devolve into anything other than mass chaos and unpredictable outcomes based almost entirely on luck...
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Vote: Matrix or 2of4 or something simple
Scumhunters Speed 8P people! Fast, actually works lurking into the setup!
Is small and simple.
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guys I think at this point mayo clinic probably isn't happening...
Not with that attitude it isn't.
well if it isn't, vote: diffusion of power. Archetype, you should sign up for a normal game! Mayo Clinic FTW.
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I don't think I'll be playing 'normal' games anymore. :P
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I'm fine with people playing/not playing depending on what setup gets chosen.
Also, you have to vote for specific setups, I did this because I'm too lazy to choose a setup :P
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I don't think I'll be playing 'normal' games anymore. :P
But you should mod one! I've already got 2 in the queue, so you should sign up for one for mayo clinic!
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I don't think I'll be playing 'normal' games anymore. :P
But you should mod one! I've already got 2 in the queue, so you should sign up for one for mayo clinic!
Well, we'll see.
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if we can't get enough interest in mayo clinic, i'd be down for vote: scumhunter speed 8p
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Vote: Mayo Clinic
;D
Also, I can start anytime after Friday the 13th
Stats Final that day Woo Hoo!!!
Not :P
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Vote Count 0.3:
C9++ (2): nkirbit, AHoppy
Scumhunter Speed 8p (2): ashersky, chairs
mayo clinic (2): Archetype, MercurialEnemi
Diffusion of power (1): mail-mi
I'm just going to have people not sign up for the game yet until a setup gets picked.
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What's frustrating about this concept is that I'm interested in quite a few different setups. mayo clinic, C9++, Scumhunter, Diffusion are all neat-looking.
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Oh yeah, there are seven people voting now, so it takes four to
lynch pick a setup.
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Oh yeah, there are seven people voting now, so it takes four to lynch pick a setup.
!!! vote: mayo clinic
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Vote: Matrix
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/out
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Sudgy, i think to get this game going, you should pick a format.
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Because of how long it's taking, voting is going to be finished regardless of whether or not there is a majority on Wednesday at some point.
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/in if it isn't mayo clinic.
vote: scumhunters 8p although this isn't my first choice
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What's frustrating about this concept is that I'm interested in quite a few different setups. mayo clinic, C9++, Scumhunter, Diffusion are all neat-looking.
Vote mayo clinic!
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What's frustrating about this concept is that I'm interested in quite a few different setups. mayo clinic, C9++, Scumhunter, Diffusion are all neat-looking.
Vote mayo clinic!
that's a bad idea
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What's frustrating about this concept is that I'm interested in quite a few different setups. mayo clinic, C9++, Scumhunter, Diffusion are all neat-looking.
Vote mayo clinic!
that's a bad idea
You're a bad idea!
No seriously vote mayo clinic. Everyone gets a PR and it looks so fun.
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I'd play Vote: Diffusion of Power if there is still interest.
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C9++ (2): nkirbit, AHoppy
Scumhunter Speed 8p (3): ashersky, chairs, yuma
mayo clinic (2): MercurialEnemi, mail-mi
Diffusion of power (2): mail-mi, Archetype
Matrix (1): Twistedarcher
Here's the most recent vote.
For those voting C9++, Arch's super mario game is a JK9++ variant, and my Adventure Time game will be a C9++ variant. You may want to vote for something else.
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Yeah, don't count my vote for c9 If there are other similar games coming up. /out then
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Vote: Matrix
Yuma get on board. Matrix matrix matrix
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Whatever the decision, getting it made is going to help the sign up process immensely.
Like, I won't play Matrix, for example.
Others won't play Medical Mafia.
Once it's known, you'll have enough players to play it.
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I think scumhunters and diffusion of power are the only ones people have said they refused to play... happy medium?
I think I prefer vote: diffusion of power over scumhunters.
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I think scumhunters and diffusion of power are the only ones people have said they refused to play... happy medium?
I think I prefer vote: diffusion of power over scumhunters.
You mean haven't said? I think you are right. I personally only want to play scumhunters, as far as standard set-ups go, but that's just me, and isn't limited to only this game at this point. I'm probably just in for invented/RMM and sort of out-there standards for the time being.
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I think scumhunters and diffusion of power are the only ones people have said they refused to play... happy medium?
I think I prefer vote: diffusion of power over scumhunters.
You mean haven't said? I think you are right. I personally only want to play scumhunters, as far as standard set-ups go, but that's just me, and isn't limited to only this game at this point. I'm probably just in for invented/RMM and sort of out-there standards for the time being.
yes, thanks for the correction. I think diffusion of powers is out there, but not so out there as mayo clinic. Diffusion of powers has:
3 Mafia Goons
4-6 Night Specific Cops
4-6 Night Specific Docs
with each cop/doc assigned a different night when they can use their power. I think it is very different from any game we have played here on f.ds, but isn't the sort of craziness that mayo clinic offers... which to me looks more like a Bastard game than a normal one. 4 NKs potentially night1... not my cup of tea.
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I'm probably in for something small and not crazy, and out for anything else, so I doubt I am playing this one.
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Diffusion of power doesn't sound too bad... I want something small and not crazy like twistedarcher...
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cool. vote: diffusion of power.
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I'm probably in for something small and not crazy, and out for anything else, so I doubt I am playing this one.
I would be up for another round of matrix... in fact that does sound nice, a small 9 player game, especially as it doesn't look like we will be having any small games for a while...
put me down for vote: matrix if you are ok modding that again.
if difussion of power isn't used I will consider modding it in the future. I think I like modding new setups more than I like playing them honestly.
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Final Vote Count 0.4:
C9++ (2): nkirbit, AHoppy
Scumhunter Speed 8p (2): ashersky, chairs
mayo clinic (1): MercurialEnemi
Diffusion of power (2): Archetype, mail-mi
Matrix6 (2): Twistedarcher, yuma
So... Two votes for a bunch of them... I was going to look at Diffusion of power as I've never heard of it before, but mafiascum isn't working... Wait a bit.
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Final Vote Count 0.4:
C9++ (2): nkirbit, AHoppy
Scumhunter Speed 8p (2): ashersky, chairs
mayo clinic (1): MercurialEnemi
Diffusion of power (2): Archetype, mail-mi
Matrix6 (2): Twistedarcher, yuma
So... Two votes for a bunch of them... I was going to look at Diffusion of power as I've never heard of it before, but mafiascum isn't working... Wait a bit.
Scumhunter is 8 players, matrix is 9 players. How many players in DoP?
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Alright, now that I've looked at it, Diffusion of Power is this game!
It's late, so I'll change it tomorrow.
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/in if it starts after I'm dead or the game is over for at least one of the two games of Mafia I'm currently in.
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/tag
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Ash: When is your game going up?
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Ash: When is your game going up?
When one of this or Mario is in the endgame.
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Alright. I guess I'll /in here
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How many times do I have to /in for whatever this is
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How many times do I have to /in for whatever this is
I think there is a vote to determine this
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How many times do I have to /in for whatever this is
I think there is a vote to determine this
Vote: robz can't play
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Eh, oh well.
/in
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Eh, oh well.
/in
Yay!
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/in
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thought I was already in... but /in
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thought I was already in... but /in
I'm just going to have people not sign up for the game yet until a setup gets picked.
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if there's room /in.
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And they came into the town at Bethlehem, but there was no room for them in the /inn.
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And they came into the town at Bethlehem, but there was no room for them in the /inn.
This should really be in RSP.
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And they came into the town at Bethlehem, but there was no room for them in the /inn.
This should really be in RSP.
Might not be religious at all, maybe he is just holidaying in the middle east
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I'd be in, but not for Diffusion of Power I don't think.
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Anybody else? We still need five more.
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Okay I think I'll play, but I'm not overly in love with the setup. I'd rather play JK++ or C9++ or something else that didn't feel so.. math-heavy? I know I didn't vote at all when asked and I'm sorry, I wasn't sure if I was going to play and I didn't want to have any say in case I didn't.
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I think this setup is easier than c9++? At least that was my initial impression.
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/in
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I am in Volt's RMM game so need to /out of this for now.
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I want to play this, but given my unintentional absences lately, /out.
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:(
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/in
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C'mon people! :D
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My winter break where free time abounds is quickly slipping away...
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Come on, people are starting to complain! Sign up!
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I'll play if dynasty warriors ends or I die before this starts.
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I'll play if dynasty warriors ends or I die before this starts.
This is probably me as well
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bump
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Player list:
1. Jimmmmm (If Dead In Another Game)
2. AHoppy
3. Robz888
4. Twistedarcher
5. Archetype
6. Voltaire
7. yuma (IDIAG)
8. mail-mi
9. Eevee (he thinks)
10. faust
11. liopoil (IDIAG)
12.
13.
I think this is the actual state of play. Folks might want to update their maybes and IDIAGs. Yuma and lio's are recent.
You'd need two more + some folks to die.
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I think yes, Eevee plays.
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I am completely /in if it's up for debate.
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I guess I had better fully /in to make sure I get a spot...
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I am completely /in if it's up for debate.
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/in assuming it's not too late
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/in assuming it's not too late
Woo! :D
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What the hell... /in
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Send me my pm! And please don't make me scum!
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As of now I believe there are 12 fully-in players and then there's me, who isn't playing unless I die in dynasty warriors first. Somebody can take my spot if they want of course, no problem.
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I'll take it, if you're sure Lio.
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cool, /out
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Is everybody fine with starting right away? If nobody objects within several hours, I'll get things started.
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Is everybody fine with starting right away? If nobody objects within several hours, I'll get things started.
's fine.
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Very fine!
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I got some free time now that I'm not guaranteed to have later (although I'm pretty sure I'll have it anyway), and this has been open for signups long enough.
THREAD LOCKED
PMs are going out! When you receive your PM, please confirm receipt by PM.
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PMs have been sent, D1 will start tomorrow night, maybe around midnight FT.
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I am very sorry for this, but one player accidentally discovered the alignment of another player (I will leave out whose fault it was). As such, the whole setup needs to be redone. I am going to be eating dinner soon, so I may not be able to get PMs out until late tonight or maybe tomorrow. Your new PMs will be titled "MXXXVII Role PM (NEW ROLE)" and will be the one you need to worry about. I am sorry, and I hope none of you got too attached to your role.
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I finally got all the PMs sent out. I got the mafia's done last night and the town's this morning, so you are not allowed to mention what time you got your PM. Day 1 will start tomorrow night maybe getting up to midnight. Twistedarcher said he's V/LA for a bit, so he won't be here at the start.
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Since some people seem to be confused, your first role PM is completely irrelevant. Only look at the one titled "MXXXVII Role PM (NEW ROLE)".
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I need a replacement for mail-mi. PM me if you're interested.
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chairs has replaced mail-mi. Thread will open in several hours.
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Woah, time flew. Anyway,
THREAD UNLOCKED
DAY 1 START
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Vote: Eevee
Town Eevee always posts first.
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Vote Count 1.1
Eevee (1): Jimmmmm
Not Voting (12): AHoppy, Robz888, Twistedarcher, Archetype, Voltaire, yuma, chairs, Eevee, faust, scott_pilgrim, pingpongsam, nkirbit
With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.
Day 1 ends January 16th, 12:00 AM.
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FoS: Everyone not voting.
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So the Cop/Doc split is either 6/4, 5/5 or 4/6. Clearly at some point a Cop/Doc claim is in order, to help us PoE. If we claim Today, the claim split will be 4/9, 5/8, 6/7, 7/6, 8/5 or 4/9. Scum know what the Cop/Doc split is, so have probably already decided how each of them will claim if we claim Today, and will probably ensure the claim split is 6/7 or 7/6 to minimise our ability to PoE.
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hello hello!
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQZOJ2GpIBw
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I actually think it'd be a good idea to claim. Not specifically the night, but which one you are. Thoughts?
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If we claim Today, the claim split will be 4/9, 5/8, 6/7, 7/6, 8/5 or 4/9.
Last one should be 9/4 of course.
Possible ideas for claiming:
-Everyone claim Cop/Doc.
-Cops with any result claim.
-Docs claim the Day before their action is due. That way a Cop who has their action due that Night can claim and be protected.
I think the first should happen at some point, but possibly not Today. We probably want to protect our Cops. The second is probably the way to go and I also think the third is a good idea.
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Can't sleep.... which is good since this needs to be said:
DON'T CLAIM! Claiming might end up being good, but at least have the decency to wait until we as a group can talk about it and decide if it is good. If you think it is good, argue for it. But don't just claim willy-nilly because you think you found the key to solve the game. If you found the key... tell us and respect us enough to see if we can spot any problems or flaws in it (we might see something you didn't or you might see something that we didn't).
Man... i am really glad I am not scum. I rolled it the first time around and my former partners can attest I was a bit panicked about it because I felt I was prime for being copped night1 or night2 and thus was suggesting to them that they "cop" me and buss me hard.... but thanks to a little mishap I don't have to worry about that anymore!
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DON'T CLAIM! Claiming might end up being good, but at least have the decency to wait until we as a group can talk about it and decide if it is good. If you think it is good, argue for it. But don't just claim willy-nilly because you think you found the key to solve the game. If you found the key... tell us and respect us enough to see if we can spot any problems or flaws in it (we might see something you didn't or you might see something that we didn't).
I agree with this 100%. Maybe I should have explicitly said not to claim before we discuss it and decide together, but we definitely want to talk about it first. yuma, what do you think about what I've said?
Man... i am really glad I am not scum. I rolled it the first time around and my former partners can attest I was a bit panicked about it because I felt I was prime for being copped night1 or night2 and thus was suggesting to them that they "cop" me and buss me hard.... but thanks to a little mishap I don't have to worry about that anymore!
Can you please post the link to the old Mafia QT so we all have the same information?
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DON'T CLAIM! Claiming might end up being good, but at least have the decency to wait until we as a group can talk about it and decide if it is good. If you think it is good, argue for it. But don't just claim willy-nilly because you think you found the key to solve the game. If you found the key... tell us and respect us enough to see if we can spot any problems or flaws in it (we might see something you didn't or you might see something that we didn't).
I agree with this 100%. Maybe I should have explicitly said not to claim before we discuss it and decide together, but we definitely want to talk about it first. yuma, what do you think about what I've said?
Man... i am really glad I am not scum. I rolled it the first time around and my former partners can attest I was a bit panicked about it because I felt I was prime for being copped night1 or night2 and thus was suggesting to them that they "cop" me and buss me hard.... but thanks to a little mishap I don't have to worry about that anymore!
Can you please post the link to the old Mafia QT so we all have the same information?
I will if I get the OK from sudgy. I can't imagine why it wouldn't be ok, but I want to run it by him first.
As for what has been said. I mostly see the utility of having docs... this is going to be horribly hard for me since I constantly mistype cop/doc..... claim the day of their power (so night1 docs), but not before.
I am sure ash will have done far more homework than I have (as will have other players) and I want to see their ideas before deciding which one is right.
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As for what has been said. I mostly see the utility of having docs... this is going to be horribly hard for me since I constantly mistype cop/doc..... claim the day of their power (so night1 docs), but not before.
I agree. Each Townie should claim when their ability can no longer be stopped by their death, so Docs the Day before, Cops the Day after. At some point we'll definitely want a full Cop/Doc claim, but whether we do it all at once, or just gradually at each person's designated time I'm not sure. I'm leaning towards not doing it Today at least.
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As for what has been said. I mostly see the utility of having docs... this is going to be horribly hard for me since I constantly mistype cop/doc..... claim the day of their power (so night1 docs), but not before.
I agree. Each Townie should claim when their ability can no longer be stopped by their death, so Docs the Day before, Cops the Day after. At some point we'll definitely want a full Cop/Doc claim, but whether we do it all at once, or just gradually at each person's designated time I'm not sure. I'm leaning towards not doing it Today at least.
I disagree with having the docs claim before their night action. After their claim, they are just VTs, so scum can shoot our remaining PRs by POE. Now cops obviously should claim when they have their result.
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The best plan I think is this: all of us claim doc/cop today. (This is basically a weaker Follow-the-Cop variant) Some arguments for that:
- the docs can protect the cops, which is what we want to do. If scum shoots a cop, they run a higher risk of being blocked.
- scum has to fakeclaim today. This is good because it reduces their flexibility. (Scum who claimed doc D1 can't just go "I'm a Night-3 Cop, and this person is scum!" on D4)
- the doc/cop spilt may indicate where to look for scum
Afterwards, claims should only be made in the following circumstances: Cop with a result, Doc after a night without night kill, L-1.
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vote: yuma for now. Has apparently played this setup before, but his contributions are a bit lacking original thought for that. And the whole "I'm so glad I'm not scum" thing rubs me the wrong way.
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Thinking about this some more, I believe this setup is really all about keeping the players alive that may still be useful. So any night-specifying claims are really dangerous, and everyone should consider twice before claiming their night.
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vote: yuma for now. Has apparently played this setup before, but his contributions are a bit lacking original thought for that. And the whole "I'm so glad I'm not scum" thing rubs me the wrong way.
Is this a serious post?
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vote: yuma for now. Has apparently played this setup before, but his contributions are a bit lacking original thought for that. And the whole "I'm so glad I'm not scum" thing rubs me the wrong way.
Uh, I guess I read that wrong, right? You didn't mean you've played this before, only that your first PM was scum? Well, I still don't like the comment.
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vote: yuma for now. Has apparently played this setup before, but his contributions are a bit lacking original thought for that. And the whole "I'm so glad I'm not scum" thing rubs me the wrong way.
Is this a serious post?
Why wouldn't it be?
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vote: yuma for now. Has apparently played this setup before, but his contributions are a bit lacking original thought for that. And the whole "I'm so glad I'm not scum" thing rubs me the wrong way.
Is this a serious post?
Why wouldn't it be?
I don't know, I guess you misunderstood him.
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Let me get this straight. We are considering telling scum who all the doctors are so they can NK them leaving everyone else defenseless at night?
Also Vote: Robz no explanation needed.
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Let me get this straight. We are considering telling scum who all the doctors are so they can NK them leaving everyone else defenseless at night?
Um, well, we're discussing it, but your sentence makes no sense. If scum NK all the Doctors, that means they're not killing the Cops, who will then not need the protection...
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vote: scott_pilgrim because I haven't played with him yet. Hello!
Not sure about the best route on claiming. Happy to listen to others debate it for a bit.
I was one of yuma's scum partners in the aborted game btw. Coming off my Chocolate Factory win I was actually a little excited about rolling scum for once...
Also not going to be around much this weekend fyi.
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I was one of yuma's scum partners in the aborted game btw. Coming off my Chocolate Factory win I was actually a little excited about rolling scum for once...
Do you think the scum team is stronger or weaker after the re-roll?
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I was one of yuma's scum partners in the aborted game btw. Coming off my Chocolate Factory win I was actually a little excited about rolling scum for once...
Do you think the scum team is stronger or weaker after the re-roll?
Well, it no longer has me in it, so...slightly stronger? I've only been scum twice, 50/50 on winning, and even though I was given MVP in that game I'm still not really sure what I'm doing as scum.
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Let me get this straight. We are considering telling scum who all the doctors are so they can NK them leaving everyone else defenseless at night?
Um, well, we're discussing it, but your sentence makes no sense. If scum NK all the Doctors, that means they're not killing the Cops, who will then not need the protection...
So, scum will never fake claim cop and a fake result on someone else? Sure the flip looks bad for them but if all the docs are gone the game is practically LYLO to begin with.
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Let me get this straight. We are considering telling scum who all the doctors are so they can NK them leaving everyone else defenseless at night?
Um, well, we're discussing it, but your sentence makes no sense. If scum NK all the Doctors, that means they're not killing the Cops, who will then not need the protection...
So, scum will never fake claim cop and a fake result on someone else?
I don't follow. How did I imply that?
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Let me get this straight. We are considering telling scum who all the doctors are so they can NK them leaving everyone else defenseless at night?
Um, well, we're discussing it, but your sentence makes no sense. If scum NK all the Doctors, that means they're not killing the Cops, who will then not need the protection...
So, scum will never fake claim cop and a fake result on someone else? Sure the flip looks bad for them but if all the docs are gone the game is practically LYLO to begin with.
By the time all the docs are gone, we are already at least in Day4, which is almost LYLO anyway.
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Reading the Chocolate scum QT. We need some rules.
If you are Town, read and understand the setup. Fully. Any misunderstandings will be scrutinised harshly as a likely scum ploy.
If you are Town, do not derphammer a claimed PR. Ever. Check your PPEs! Also, don't derphammer.
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Reading the Chocolate scum QT. We need some rules.
If you are Town, read and understand the setup. Fully. Any misunderstandings will be scrutinised harshly as a likely scum ploy.
If you are Town, do not derphammer a claimed PR. Ever. Check your PPEs! Also, don't derphammer.
Your second advice is a little moot here, considering we are all PRs.
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vote: yuma for now. Has apparently played this setup before, but his contributions are a bit lacking original thought for that. And the whole "I'm so glad I'm not scum" thing rubs me the wrong way.
I haven't played this setup before. I got the first PM and then a new one, like you did yes?
Here is the QT cause sudgy said I could post it... http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/jCA6WQ8g4bs4
So i don't know why you think it should have original thought... I have had as much time to think about this setup as you have (well maybe less, because for the first half I was thinking about it from a scum perspective and freaking out!)
So basically this is a lame vote
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and even more lame given that you didn't remove your vote once you realized your thinking was in error... Sure it is early game stage, but still a lame vote
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Reading the Chocolate scum QT. We need some rules.
If you are Town, read and understand the setup. Fully. Any misunderstandings will be scrutinised harshly as a likely scum ploy.
If you are Town, do not derphammer a claimed PR. Ever. Check your PPEs! Also, don't derphammer.
Your second advice is a little moot here, considering we are all PRs.
Well true. That was more general advice than specific to this game. Cops are kind of our PRs in this case.
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Reading the Chocolate scum QT. We need some rules.
If you are Town, read and understand the setup. Fully. Any misunderstandings will be scrutinised harshly as a likely scum ploy.
If you are Town, do not derphammer a claimed PR. Ever. Check your PPEs! Also, don't derphammer.
Your second advice is a little moot here, considering we are all PRs.
Well true. That was more general advice than specific to this game. Cops are kind of our PRs in this case.
But also, don't derphammer.
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and even more lame given that you didn't remove your vote once you realized your thinking was in error... Sure it is early game stage, but still a lame vote
Sorry if you think my vote is lame. How about a vote: pingpongsam? Is that better? What he says doesn't make any sense to me.
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and even more lame given that you didn't remove your vote once you realized your thinking was in error... Sure it is early game stage, but still a lame vote
Sorry if you think my vote is lame. How about a vote: pingpongsam? Is that better? What he says doesn't make any sense to me.
Definitely an improvement.
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It doesn't make sense to argue against broadcasting who the doctors are?
It doesn't make sense to me to posit something within the first hours of the game and then demonize anyone who thinks it might be a bad idea.
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Hello everyone!
So I'm thinking we definitely don't need to claim the days that our abilities work. However, I do agree with Jimmmmm that Docs should claim the day before they can doc. They may be a VT afterwards and scum can POE, but if the cop who they protect can get a positive result, that would balance that out. I'm still not sure about claiming roles D1. It will give us more information to give us a more informed lynch D1 (which I'm all for, I hate D1...), but it does open up our cops to get NK'd by scum... We don't know if we have enough docs to protect all our cops or not so we could pretty easily lose our key players.
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It doesn't make sense to me to posit something within the first hours of the game and then demonize anyone who thinks it might be a bad idea.
Wait, are you talking about me?
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I don't think claiming when your night is is a good idea. Scum can easily say "Yeah I'm a N1 Doc" to get a free pass for the day. Plus if they Town claims, it seems like it would help scum decide who's a threat and who isn't. So I think we should just say whether we are a Doc or a Cop and that's it unless the Cop gets an investigation.
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I don't think claiming when your night is is a good idea. Scum can easily say "Yeah I'm a N1 Doc" to get a free pass for the day. Plus if they Town claims, it seems like it would help scum decide who's a threat and who isn't. So I think we should just say whether we are a Doc or a Cop and that's it unless the Cop gets an investigation.
This. If scum claims N1 Doc, they get a pass and an excuse why they are never night-killed.
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Also, what if someone claims N1 doc, and then it turns out we don't even have a N1 cop? Then the claim was for nothing, and all we've done is given scum more information.
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It doesn't make sense to me to posit something within the first hours of the game and then demonize anyone who thinks it might be a bad idea.
Wait, are you talking about me?
No, I am willing to discuss the merits of your idea. faust is the one throwing votes on the guy who wants to discuss the merits of your idea. You seem complicit with this approach though...
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It doesn't make sense to me to posit something within the first hours of the game and then demonize anyone who thinks it might be a bad idea.
Wait, are you talking about me?
No, I am willing to discuss the merits of your idea. faust is the one throwing votes on the guy who wants to discuss the merits of your idea. You seem complicit with this approach though...
Still demonise is a very strong word. I found both your posts difficult to understand and then didn't really agree with the reasons given, or at least my understanding of them.
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yeah... I am going to vote: faust for discouraging talking about the setup when this is obviously a setup where town is best benefited by at least discussing what we as a town want to do. It is either anti-town behavior or scum trying to curtail town's figuring out the best use of their PRs and information. It is probably the first, but could easily be the second.
If he didn't understand PPS's comment he should have asked for clarification, instead of voting. As for his vote on me... well I already said it was lame.
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I don't think claiming when your night is is a good idea. Scum can easily say "Yeah I'm a N1 Doc" to get a free pass for the day. Plus if they Town claims, it seems like it would help scum decide who's a threat and who isn't. So I think we should just say whether we are a Doc or a Cop and that's it unless the Cop gets an investigation.
Ah never thought of that. Good point. So no claiming night unless you have an investigation result.
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yeah... I am going to vote: faust for discouraging talking about the setup when this is obviously a setup where town is best benefited by at least discussing what we as a town want to do. It is either anti-town behavior or scum trying to curtail town's figuring out the best use of their PRs and information. It is probably the first, but could easily be the second.
If he didn't understand PPS's comment he should have asked for clarification, instead of voting. As for his vote on me... well I already said it was lame.
I do not discourage talking about the setup. What I do is make votes based on something instead of RVSing. Well, there's not much to base your vote on right now, so I have to evaluate what I have, and that is setup talk. PPS took a strong stance that was apparently not well thought trough, which is slightly scummy.
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I thought it through. Maybe not thoroughly but I did think it through. Jimmmmm asked a decent question which I haven't exactly responded to and I will get to that in a second.
faust jumped right at it, more or less duplicated exactly what I was saying but painted what I was saying as being scummy. WTH?
Jimmmmm, I think your plan does imply that Fake Cops aren't part of the equation. You state that if all the Docs are toast then there is no need for them anyhow. Let's assume a scenario wherein we have 2 mislynches and 3 NKs that have depleted all of the doctor roles. The surviving players are split 2/6 mafia/town. A fake cop claim comes out and we mislynch someone. Well, now it's 2/5 and we are sure to lose someone at night putting us at 2/4 the next day. We zap the the obvious fake claimer going 1/4 and the NK puts us at 1/3. No we are lylo with dueling fake claim/real claim which I think is a situation we would like to avoid since it becomes a complete gamble on winning or losing all because we opted to make our Doctors sitting ducks at night.
I'm not saying it's a terrible idea but I am also thinking it through which faust would like you to believe I have not.
I would like to consider some plan that allows at least one Doctor to operate at night possibly giving us a real upper hand in the later days.
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But mafia will kill cops, not doctors.
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My first thought is that players under pressure shouldn't claim. It gives scum info while not really making your lynch any more risky for town, since everyone is a pr. No need to give the info since its much, much worse if you don't get lynch, and won't really help you get lynch.
I think cops should claim all results immediately and doctors should never claim. We want to leave spent doctors as potential nk targets, otherwise scum will be able to narrow the pool of nk targets exclusively down to people who still have powers remaining.
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But mafia will kill cops, not doctors.
Why, exactly? I guess I'm not seeing how obvious that is. If I were scum I would be primarily interested in picking off the Doctors to guarantee my ability to get a NK every night and to leverage fake claims for mislynches during the day much like I outlined.
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Jimmmmm, I think your plan does imply that Fake Cops aren't part of the equation. You state that if all the Docs are toast then there is no need for them anyhow. Let's assume a scenario wherein we have 2 mislynches and 3 NKs that have depleted all of the doctor roles. The surviving players are split 2/6 mafia/town. A fake cop claim comes out and we mislynch someone. Well, now it's 2/5 and we are sure to lose someone at night putting us at 2/4 the next day. We zap the the obvious fake claimer going 1/4 and the NK puts us at 1/3. No we are lylo with dueling fake claim/real claim which I think is a situation we would like to avoid since it becomes a complete gamble on winning or losing all because we opted to make our Doctors sitting ducks at night.
This scenario will never come to pass. Reasons:
- you assume only docs die until D3. That would mean that town lynches claimed docs twice, which is something we can prevent.
- in your scenario, we have no N1 or N2 cops, which is extremely unlikely.
- even if it comes to this, scum already had to fakeclaim. They will not all claim cop (likely). So a claimed doctor is still alive (and scum)
Above that, any scenario where we mislynch twice is naturally bound to be likely to take us to LYLO. That says nothing about the quality of the plan.
PPE 3
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I think cops should claim all results immediately and doctors should never claim. We want to leave spent doctors as potential nk targets, otherwise scum will be able to narrow the pool of nk targets exclusively down to people who still have powers remaining.
Bingo, this seems like a great plan for insuring the longevity of Town.
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But mafia will kill cops, not doctors.
Why, exactly? I guess I'm not seeing how obvious that is. If I were scum I would be primarily interested in picking off the Doctors to guarantee my ability to get a NK every night and to leverage fake claims for mislynches during the day much like I outlined.
Every believed cop creates 2 ICs - or outs scum, and creates an IC. THAT is what mafia has to fight against. If they whiff on a NK, that's not nearly as bad.
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This scenario will never come to pass. Reasons:
- you assume only docs die until D3. That would mean that town lynches claimed docs twice, which is something we can prevent.
It is patently obvious that I assume at least one successful Mafia lynch. That makes your statement false to start with. I do assume all the Doctors get depleted but I don't know how many there are. I had to contrive this scenario to account for the maximum possible number. You talk with ease about this as if you do know the setup as scum would.
- in your scenario, we have no N1 or N2 cops, which is extremely unlikely.
Incorrect again. I assume at least one successful lynch because in the event of an early cop result the obvious counter is a fake-claim and it is foolhardy to say "never" would we fall for the fake claim mislynch. Maybe it is 50/50 there but we should probably assume the worst for the sake of projecting a plan for winning. So, yeah we got duped into mislynching a cop and then killed our first bad guy the next day. I think my project does account for what you strongly say it does not.
- even if it comes to this, scum already had to fakeclaim. They will not all claim cop (likely). So a claimed doctor is still alive (and scum)
Above that, any scenario where we mislynch twice is naturally bound to be likely to take us to LYLO. That says nothing about the quality of the plan.
It says everything about the quality of the plan because scum can win with one standing player if there are no doctors at night as I have shown. Thus, they can literally sacrifice their other 2 players to get those 2 mislynches you agree place us at LYLO.
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I think cops should claim all results immediately and doctors should never claim. We want to leave spent doctors as potential nk targets, otherwise scum will be able to narrow the pool of nk targets exclusively down to people who still have powers remaining.
Bingo, this seems like a great plan for insuring the longevity of Town.
I like this plan as well, unless someone comes up with something that convinces me otherwise.
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I think cops should claim all results immediately and doctors should never claim. We want to leave spent doctors as potential nk targets, otherwise scum will be able to narrow the pool of nk targets exclusively down to people who still have powers remaining.
Bingo, this seems like a great plan for insuring the longevity of Town.
I like this plan as well, unless someone comes up with something that convinces me otherwise.
I think I like it as well...
PS: welcome scott_pilgrim! Not that you really need a welcome, you have been around the forums for quite a while, but welcome to forum mafia!
Have you played mafia before in any setting? Also if you don't mind saying, what is your timezone?
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I think cops should claim all results immediately and doctors should never claim. We want to leave spent doctors as potential nk targets, otherwise scum will be able to narrow the pool of nk targets exclusively down to people who still have powers remaining.
Bingo, this seems like a great plan for insuring the longevity of Town.
I like this plan as well, unless someone comes up with something that convinces me otherwise.
I think I like it as well...
PS: welcome scott_pilgrim! Not that you really need a welcome, you have been around the forums for quite a while, but welcome to forum mafia!
Have you played mafia before in any setting? Also if you don't mind saying, what is your timezone?
I've played mafia a few times IRL, but not online. I would probably be quite lost without the Mafia Jargon thread.
I'm currently on PST (UTC-8:00), but I'll be going back to school in about a week after which point I will be on EST (UTC-5:00) for the next several months.
I'll most likely be gone for the rest of the day and possibly much of tomorrow, but I should be mostly free the rest of this week.
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But mafia will kill cops, not doctors.
Why, exactly? I guess I'm not seeing how obvious that is. If I were scum I would be primarily interested in picking off the Doctors to guarantee my ability to get a NK every night and to leverage fake claims for mislynches during the day much like I outlined.
Every believed cop creates 2 ICs - or outs scum, and creates an IC. THAT is what mafia has to fight against. If they whiff on a NK, that's not nearly as bad.
Exactly. A successful Copping takes out 1/3 of the Mafia. An unsuccessful Doctoring takes out only 1/10 of the Town. There's slight bonuses to both (Mafia potentially taking out a PR that would act that night and Town confirming one other player), but I'd certainly shoot claimed cops as Mafia.
I still think we should claim Doc/Cop. Claiming Night should be out of the picture for today for the reasons I should described, but claiming Doc/Cop should restrict the Mafia early game into fakeclaiming and gives us a rough idea as to where the chips fall in terms of how many of each PR.
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Vote: nkirbit
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here's what we're going to see if we massclaim doctor/cop: a 6/6 split. And we learn nothing.
Mafia learns: A list of which PR each player is.
Don't like it. At all.
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I agree that we should not massclaim. Towns main powers are our cops, not our doctors. The benefit of a successful copping is better than a successful doctoring, while an "unsuccessful" copping is also much better than an unsuccessful doctoring.
Doctors should never claim, unless in the possibility that there's a missing night kill and we can maybe deduce who that is (scum no-killing doesn't seem like much of a possibility in a setup with potential d4 and d5 cops). Cops should claim results as well, although maybe not immediately (jimmm in chocolate factory is a very good example as to why not claiming immediately can be good).
So far, townier reads on nkirbit and especially Faust. Yuma is also speaking a lot of sense, although I think he'd be speaking sense as scum as well, so it's hard to get any read on him so far. No one else has stuck out to me.
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So far, townier reads on nkirbit and especially Faust. Yuma is also speaking a lot of sense, although I think he'd be speaking sense as scum as well, so it's hard to get any read on him so far. No one else has stuck out to me.
Wait, what? As far as I can tell faust is in the massclaim camp with Jimmmmm.
I don't like how Jimmmmm setup this crappy idea and then when I questioned it faust voted me for it and then made even crappier arguments against me more or less proving it was a crappy idea to begin with and then he just ignored defending his position. What, exactly, are you finding towny about faust?
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I have gotten a towny feel from his posts. It's early but I basically every single post has read town to me. This can obviously change over time but right now he's my strongest read.
Are you implying that you believe Faust and jimm set up a trap pregame? That seems like a ludicrous claim but I don't really see any other way to read it.
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Also, someone being wrong on theory doesn't mean they are scummy. Wow do you think Faust being in the massclaim camp makes him scummy?
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Very quick catch up from the aftermath of a wonderful wedding:
-towny read on PPS, even though I don't agree with him
-townier read on faust
-welcome, scott!
what would we gain from claiming anything at all? serious question here, is it really helpful at all to get a rough idea of our pr split? to me it seems cops are so much more powerful, the main function of the docs is to get night killed. I'm in the "cops with results claim, others stay quiet" camp.
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Also, someone being wrong on theory doesn't mean they are scummy. Wow do you think Faust being in the massclaim camp makes him scummy?
Nah, I'm not jumping to such extremes. Scummy/Towny/Null at this point is about feel and perception not about deduction. I'm not feeling the town vibe from faust but me and him tend to clash anyhow. The Jimmmmm/faust interaction with me did feel scummy but I'm not claiming a pair out of the gate or anything, that is, as you say, ludicrous. If anything I was implying that faust was being opportunistic whereas Jimmmmm's part seemed far more genuine.
No, my incredulity at you was based on the assumption that you were finding nkirbit Towny for the same reason as I, a sensible plan that doesn't involve showing scum all the cards. faust seems diametrically opposed to such an approach.
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Jimmmmm, I think your plan does imply that Fake Cops aren't part of the equation.
Are you talking about the idea where a Doc claims before the Night his power activates? Are you saying I'm assuming that scum will not fakeclaim Cop in order to draw protection away from others? That's obviously a possibility. But I don't think scum claiming Cop is the worst thing in the world for us. Even a fake investigation result gives us information. Also, there are more Docs than scum, so if we did that, there would be a time where a Doc claimed and this was not followed by a fakeclaim.
You state that if all the Docs are toast then there is no need for them anyhow. Let's assume a scenario wherein we have 2 mislynches and 3 NKs that have depleted all of the doctor roles. The surviving players are split 2/6 mafia/town. A fake cop claim comes out and we mislynch someone. Well, now it's 2/5 and we are sure to lose someone at night putting us at 2/4 the next day. We zap the the obvious fake claimer going 1/4 and the NK puts us at 1/3. No we are lylo with dueling fake claim/real claim which I think is a situation we would like to avoid since it becomes a complete gamble on winning or losing all because we opted to make our Doctors sitting ducks at night.
This is a terrible argument. Lylo with fake claims and real claims is so much better than lylo without. If someone claims a positive result, then you can take the odds from 1/3 to 1/2. Best case scenario is that Docs die before Cops. Sure, a Doc might get a lucky save in, but a Cop who lives past his Night is guaranteed a result. If it's going to be 2/6 on Day 4, the absolute best case scenario is that the 6 Townies are Cops. Statistically 3-4 will have results. That's amazing! Do you know how wonderfully we could PoE with 3-4 out of 8 people having actual confirmed Town or confirmed scum results? Plus any scum claiming Cop will have to back up their claim. But of course, that won't happen. The problem with claiming is not that scum will kill the Docs, it's that they will kill the Cops. There is a small chance that a protection will work, but probably they won't.
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I see where you're coming from -- while I'm giving Faust and nkirbit townier reads currently, they are for different reasons -- sorry if I didn't make that clear.
Faust has seemed, while obviously (in my eyes, and yours as well) wrong in his belief on claiming, very genuine and towny in pushing it. I'm just reading it as towny, more than anything else. Obviously this may change, but my gut is telling me he's town at this point.
Nkirbit just seems very straightforward and logical, which I think are qualities that always tend to shine through when he's town (he is also my brother, btw, for anyone was wasn't aware).
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-towny read on PPS, even though I don't agree with him
-townier read on faust
-welcome, scott!
what would we gain from claiming anything at all? serious question here, is it really helpful at all to get a rough idea of our pr split? to me it seems cops are so much more powerful, the main function of the docs is to get night killed. I'm in the "cops with results claim, others stay quiet" camp.
I'm confused. I specifically stated this is where I stand. What part are you disagreeing with me on?
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-towny read on PPS, even though I don't agree with him
-townier read on faust
-welcome, scott!
what would we gain from claiming anything at all? serious question here, is it really helpful at all to get a rough idea of our pr split? to me it seems cops are so much more powerful, the main function of the docs is to get night killed. I'm in the "cops with results claim, others stay quiet" camp.
I'm confused. I specifically stated this is where I stand. What part are you disagreeing with me on?
I think he means your reads (probably Faust) instead of your position on claiming.
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pps, I'm trying my best to understand what you mean, but I just don't. How does everyone claiming Cop or Doc assume that scum won't claim Cop?
The whole point of the idea is that scum will have to fakeclaim. We will either have 7 people claim Cop or 7 people claim Doc. Either way, we will have a list of 7 people that we know for an absolute fact contains at least one scum. Maybe this is pretty minor information, but it's still solid information.
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pps, I'm trying my best to understand what you mean, but I just don't. How does everyone claiming Cop or Doc assume that scum won't claim Cop?
It doesn't, it assures it. In fact, they will claim cop and not doctor so that it will be a gamble for us to decide who is lying when it cop claim vs cop claim. My question to you earlier was a confounded concern that this hadn't occurred to you.
I follow your analysis about the statistics and I can agree with your points. I'm still not certain that the massclaim is the best approach. I think it gives scum information in a way that allows them to best use the night kills. Whereas if claims only come with results they are left in reaction mode the entire game.
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pps, I'm trying my best to understand what you mean, but I just don't. How does everyone claiming Cop or Doc assume that scum won't claim Cop?
The whole point of the idea is that scum will have to fakeclaim. We will either have 7 people claim Cop or 7 people claim Doc. Either way, we will have a list of 7 people that we know for an absolute fact contains at least one scum. Maybe this is pretty minor information, but it's still solid information.
This information is nowhere near useful enough to overcome the disadvantages to scum knowing who the cops are.
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In fact, they will claim cop and not doctor so that it will be a gamble for us to decide who is lying when it cop claim vs cop claim.
This makes no sense. At all. The game of Mafia is a gamble about deciding who is lying. Scum can't force us into that, that's the game. Deciding between two claimed Cops has got to be easier than deciding between three claimed VTs.
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pps, I'm trying my best to understand what you mean, but I just don't. How does everyone claiming Cop or Doc assume that scum won't claim Cop?
The whole point of the idea is that scum will have to fakeclaim. We will either have 7 people claim Cop or 7 people claim Doc. Either way, we will have a list of 7 people that we know for an absolute fact contains at least one scum. Maybe this is pretty minor information, but it's still solid information.
This information is nowhere near useful enough to overcome the disadvantages to scum knowing who the cops are.
Yes but then the Docs know who to protect.
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pps, I'm trying my best to understand what you mean, but I just don't. How does everyone claiming Cop or Doc assume that scum won't claim Cop?
The whole point of the idea is that scum will have to fakeclaim. We will either have 7 people claim Cop or 7 people claim Doc. Either way, we will have a list of 7 people that we know for an absolute fact contains at least one scum. Maybe this is pretty minor information, but it's still solid information.
This information is nowhere near useful enough to overcome the disadvantages to scum knowing who the cops are.
I agree, that's why I don't think we should do it Today. But we should do it at some point, even if we wait until lylo.
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pps, I'm trying my best to understand what you mean, but I just don't. How does everyone claiming Cop or Doc assume that scum won't claim Cop?
The whole point of the idea is that scum will have to fakeclaim. We will either have 7 people claim Cop or 7 people claim Doc. Either way, we will have a list of 7 people that we know for an absolute fact contains at least one scum. Maybe this is pretty minor information, but it's still solid information.
This information is nowhere near useful enough to overcome the disadvantages to scum knowing who the cops are.
Yes but then the Docs know who to protect.
But it's still likely to be unsuccessful. Assume 1 doctor / night for simplicity. Assume 5 cops, 5 doctors. N1, doc1 has to choose between probably 7 targets (assuming 2 scum fakeclaim cop and 1 scum fakeclaim doctor, but whatever, if it's the other way the analysis is mostly the same). That's a 1/7 chance of protecting the night kill (since doctor could very well protect scum). Before the claim, doctor had 1/12 chance of protecting the night kill.
So, doctor odds have improved from 1/12 to 1/7. That's going from 8.3% to 14.3%.
Meanwhile, without any claims, scum have 10 targets to shoot at. They have a 50% chance of aiming at a cop. Chance of successfully hitting a cop is 50% - 8.3%, or 41.7% (chance of aiming at a cop minus chance of doctor save). Now, after the claim, they have a 100% chance of aiming at a cop. The chance of successfully hitting a cop is 100% - 14.3%, or 85.7%.
These numbers are obviously off, since it may not be 7 cops / 6 doctors after claims it may not be 5/5, the doctors aren't evenly spread out, and it doesn't account for the D1 lynch, and it doesn't account for scum figuring out who's a cop through gameplay. But regardless, the points I think are pretty clear. Claiming cop/doctor increases the chance of a successful N1 doctoring from 8.3% to 14.3% randomly, while it increases the chance of mafia NK'ing a cop from 41.7% to 85.7%. To me, this is absolutely 100% unacceptable.
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pps, I'm trying my best to understand what you mean, but I just don't. How does everyone claiming Cop or Doc assume that scum won't claim Cop?
The whole point of the idea is that scum will have to fakeclaim. We will either have 7 people claim Cop or 7 people claim Doc. Either way, we will have a list of 7 people that we know for an absolute fact contains at least one scum. Maybe this is pretty minor information, but it's still solid information.
This information is nowhere near useful enough to overcome the disadvantages to scum knowing who the cops are.
Yes but then the Docs know who to protect.
Still agree with Archetype. A successful doc protection is way better for us than a cop result. Plus, if the scum tries to kill off all the cops, guess who remains: The scum that fake-claimed cop. So they're putting themselves in a position where killing off the town threats means exposing themselves.
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But it's still likely to be unsuccessful. Assume 1 doctor / night for simplicity. Assume 5 cops, 5 doctors. N1, doc1 has to choose between probably 7 targets (assuming 2 scum fakeclaim cop and 1 scum fakeclaim doctor, but whatever, if it's the other way the analysis is mostly the same). That's a 1/7 chance of protecting the night kill (since doctor could very well protect scum). Before the claim, doctor had 1/12 chance of protecting the night kill.
So, doctor odds have improved from 1/12 to 1/7. That's going from 8.3% to 14.3%.
Meanwhile, without any claims, scum have 10 targets to shoot at. They have a 50% chance of aiming at a cop. Chance of successfully hitting a cop is 50% - 8.3%, or 41.7% (chance of aiming at a cop minus chance of doctor save). Now, after the claim, they have a 100% chance of aiming at a cop. The chance of successfully hitting a cop is 100% - 14.3%, or 85.7%.
These numbers are obviously off, since it may not be 7 cops / 6 doctors after claims it may not be 5/5, the doctors aren't evenly spread out, and it doesn't account for the D1 lynch, and it doesn't account for scum figuring out who's a cop through gameplay. But regardless, the points I think are pretty clear. Claiming cop/doctor increases the chance of a successful N1 doctoring from 8.3% to 14.3% randomly, while it increases the chance of mafia NK'ing a cop from 41.7% to 85.7%. To me, this is absolutely 100% unacceptable.
A few things:
1. If doc/cop split 6/7, we should probably look at lynching a cop. So when N1 arrives, only 6 targets would remain for the docs.
2. Your analysis is correct for N1, but ignores the fact that the odds increase significantly as the game continues. If scum kills off the cops one by one, the docs are ever more likely to be successful.
But I just thought of a new procedure, and want you to discuss its merits: At the start of every new day, each player answers the question: If my shot would have been tonight, I would have targeted XXX. That way, even if we decide not to claim, we can have all the information there is when someone dies without having to claim.
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pps, I'm trying my best to understand what you mean, but I just don't. How does everyone claiming Cop or Doc assume that scum won't claim Cop?
The whole point of the idea is that scum will have to fakeclaim. We will either have 7 people claim Cop or 7 people claim Doc. Either way, we will have a list of 7 people that we know for an absolute fact contains at least one scum. Maybe this is pretty minor information, but it's still solid information.
This information is nowhere near useful enough to overcome the disadvantages to scum knowing who the cops are.
Yes but then the Docs know who to protect.
Still agree with Archetype. A successful doc protection is way better for us than a cop result. Plus, if the scum tries to kill off all the cops, guess who remains: The scum that fake-claimed cop. So they're putting themselves in a position where killing off the town threats means exposing themselves.
I completely disagree with this point and I'm shocked that it's even up for debate. To me, a cop result is MUCH better than a missing kill, and it's not even close. Like, I'd rather have a successful cop result than TWO successful doctors.
Cop is a stronger role for doctor. Look at C9++ for balancing issues. It has a one-shot cop and a doctor being roughly equivalent and at the same number of letters. Cop is a MUCH stronger role than doctor. Much, much, much stronger.
Can you explain why you think a missing kill is better than a result that AT WORST creates an IC? Yeah, scum can fakeclaim, sure, but they can fakeclaim the IC on a missing kill, as well! And doctors cannot catch scum!
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Like, the main utility of a doctor is in keeping a power role alive, not in trying to maximize the ability to prevent an night kill.
If you're playing as a doctor in a normal game, you're not trying to protect the person you think mafia is most likely to kill. You're trying to protect the person you want to die the least. This is normally a claimed PR that you believe, or someone who's close to IC status, or is an actual IC. Yes, preventing a kill is nice, but I'd argue that keeping PRs alive to do their thing is the #1 priority for doctors.
With that in mind, doctor hunting for scum nightkills is counter-productive. What's the result of killing off doctors, normally? The positive result for scum is that they then have free reign on shooting PRs! The goal of shooting a doctor is to be able to shoot that cop on the next day. Now, in this game, that's impossible, since there's 4-5 more doctors out there. So, you'll never be able to clear the field of doctors, or if you do, it will take so long that you'll never be able to take time to shoot at the cops, who are the real threat to scum.
Scum are not afraid of doctors guessing the scum. Scum are afraid of getting investigated by a cop. They want to kill those cops.
Scum WILL shoot for cops, not for doctors. Therefore, doctor claiming is awful, and narrows down the pool of who scum will shoot. And trust me, scum figured this out pregame, they are not learning anything new from this post.
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A few more things:
1) Your new procedure is only beneficial for figuring out doctor protections, right? I mean, I guess that works out. Since nights aren't included in the flip, though, I'm not sure how beneficial it is (although I guess we need to make sure that each person has a chance to claim their night before they get lynched, in case they are town). I suppose it can't hurt, I guess.
2) I'm very, very, very against lynching someone based on the idea of "Well, there's 7 cops, and 6 doctors, so that's probably 2 scum in cops, so we should lynch there!" That's a situation where scum has perfect information, and town doesn't. They set the agenda there, and can make a favorable situation. Scum WILL outguess us / outmanipulate us there, and I'm not willing to play into that until we've had a bunch of flips to look at.
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TA is making a lot of sense.
PPE 1.
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2) I'm very, very, very against lynching someone based on the idea of "Well, there's 7 cops, and 6 doctors, so that's probably 2 scum in cops, so we should lynch there!" That's a situation where scum has perfect information, and town doesn't. They set the agenda there, and can make a favorable situation. Scum WILL outguess us / outmanipulate us there, and I'm not willing to play into that until we've had a bunch of flips to look at.
We definitely don't want to assume anything like 2 scum in Cops, 1 scum in Docs. Scum are just as likely to all claim the same as they are to split 2/1.
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What TA said.
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I completely disagree with this point and I'm shocked that it's even up for debate. To me, a cop result is MUCH better than a missing kill, and it's not even close. Like, I'd rather have a successful cop result than TWO successful doctors.
Cop is a stronger role for doctor. Look at C9++ for balancing issues. It has a one-shot cop and a doctor being roughly equivalent and at the same number of letters. Cop is a MUCH stronger role than doctor. Much, much, much stronger.
Can you explain why you think a missing kill is better than a result that AT WORST creates an IC? Yeah, scum can fakeclaim, sure, but they can fakeclaim the IC on a missing kill, as well! And doctors cannot catch scum!
I don't get it. A successful doc gives an IC as well, because the targeted person is confirmed not scum (well, almost). AND and prevents a night death. Cops are only better if they investigate scum. Now obviously, cops are much more reliant at getting results in than docs are at blocking NKs. I hve never said that doc is a stronger role than cop.
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A few more things:
1) Your new procedure is only beneficial for figuring out doctor protections, right? I mean, I guess that works out. Since nights aren't included in the flip, though, I'm not sure how beneficial it is (although I guess we need to make sure that each person has a chance to claim their night before they get lynched, in case they are town). I suppose it can't hurt, I guess.
Oh, I missed the part that the nights don't flip. Well, in that case, it's a lot less useful of course.
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I am with TA, I believe. I think here... no claiming doc or cop... but I really like the idea of having every player in the first post of a day say who they would have investigated had they been a cop the previous night.
I like it two-fold... it forces scum to commit to something early and it is useful to get town results from cops w/o them needing to claim...
basically i think the only claiming that should be done all game is cops with scum results. no claiming any other time, including at L-1.
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I completely disagree with this point and I'm shocked that it's even up for debate. To me, a cop result is MUCH better than a missing kill, and it's not even close. Like, I'd rather have a successful cop result than TWO successful doctors.
Cop is a stronger role for doctor. Look at C9++ for balancing issues. It has a one-shot cop and a doctor being roughly equivalent and at the same number of letters. Cop is a MUCH stronger role than doctor. Much, much, much stronger.
Can you explain why you think a missing kill is better than a result that AT WORST creates an IC? Yeah, scum can fakeclaim, sure, but they can fakeclaim the IC on a missing kill, as well! And doctors cannot catch scum!
I don't get it. A successful doc gives an IC as well, because the targeted person is confirmed not scum (well, almost). AND and prevents a night death. Cops are only better if they investigate scum. Now obviously, cops are much more reliant at getting results in than docs are at blocking NKs. I hve never said that doc is a stronger role than cop.
But cops, at worst, generate an IC, and at best, catch scum. Docs, most of the time, will do absolutely nothing.
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I completely disagree with this point and I'm shocked that it's even up for debate. To me, a cop result is MUCH better than a missing kill, and it's not even close. Like, I'd rather have a successful cop result than TWO successful doctors.
Cop is a stronger role for doctor. Look at C9++ for balancing issues. It has a one-shot cop and a doctor being roughly equivalent and at the same number of letters. Cop is a MUCH stronger role than doctor. Much, much, much stronger.
Can you explain why you think a missing kill is better than a result that AT WORST creates an IC? Yeah, scum can fakeclaim, sure, but they can fakeclaim the IC on a missing kill, as well! And doctors cannot catch scum!
I don't get it. A successful doc gives an IC as well, because the targeted person is confirmed not scum (well, almost).
unless there are two+ docs with the same night or mafia elected to not kill (less likely, but conceivable if you are going to give out ICness for this)
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Very behind, sorry! Will catch up when I can.
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basically i think the only claiming that should be done all game is cops with scum results. no claiming any other time, including at L-1.
Disagree. Cops should claim even if they get a Town result.
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basically i think the only claiming that should be done all game is cops with scum results. no claiming any other time, including at L-1.
Disagree. Cops should claim even if they get a Town result.
why? Faust had the brilliant idea that if everyone says at the start of day who they would have targeted then we can preserve that data for later.
Say I am a Night 2 cop. At the start of Day 3 I say that I targeted xeiron.
If I get lynched day3 or killed night3 people can go back and see that since I said I targeted xeiron and didn't /out him as scum, he must be town...
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oh shoot, that doesn't work....
nights don't flip right?
There has to be another way to get that or something like that to work though...
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basically i think the only claiming that should be done all game is cops with scum results. no claiming any other time, including at L-1.
Disagree. Cops should claim even if they get a Town result.
Catching up, but the way I'm viewing this game is changing with this discussion and I'm leaning towards the no claim camp. If cops claim when they get a town result though, scum knows that player is no longer a threat PoEing the useful cops remaining.
Also, to echo shraeye since he isn't in this game: I would like to remind everyone that pages upon pages of DQ theory talk does not equate to scum hunting, clutters up the thread and just helps scum. That being said, I understand that with this semi-open (I think that's what you can call it?) Setup the theory talk is more useful than closed. And so far it hasn't gotten out of hand. Just warning for the rest of the day.
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I'm starting to lean towards no massclaim as well, at least for D1 and despite my thinking earlier. I do, however, strongly believe Cops should claim upon receiving any kind of result. They and their target become near conf!Town, which scum are going to want to kill anyway. Plus it gives the Docs someone to protect. Faust's plan would work, but like yuma said people only flip as Cop or Doc. So I don't think there is a way to get that to work.
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I'm starting to lean towards no massclaim as well, at least for D1 and despite my thinking earlier. I do, however, strongly believe Cops should claim upon receiving any kind of result. They and their target become near conf!Town, which scum are going to want to kill anyway. Plus it gives the Docs someone to protect. Faust's plan would work, but like yuma said people only flip as Cop or Doc. So I don't think there is a way to get that to work.
a lack of flavor prevents us from doing a "if my flavor name starts with X I am a day Y" sort of thing, which is probably for the best... those sort of strats are starting to be slightly abused...
But there might be another way, we just need to think of one.... Or maybe there isn't one...
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oh shoot, that doesn't work....
nights don't flip right?
There has to be another way to get that or something like that to work though...
Each Doctor could randomly decide a number from 1 to 5, and then after that Night say "If I'm a Cop, I targeted so-and-so last Night", and Cops could say the same thing after receiving a Town result.
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Also, to echo shraeye since he isn't in this game: I would like to remind everyone that pages upon pages of DQ theory talk does not equate to scum hunting, clutters up the thread and just helps scum. That being said, I understand that with this semi-open (I think that's what you can call it?) Setup the theory talk is more useful than closed. And so far it hasn't gotten out of hand. Just warning for the rest of the day.
I understand and agree with you, but also think that a few pages of theory is better than crickets. Of course we want to transition to full-time scumhunting pretty soon. I welcome you to start us off with reads and/or cases, and I'll do the same at some point.
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oh shoot, that doesn't work....
nights don't flip right?
There has to be another way to get that or something like that to work though...
Each Doctor could randomly decide a number from 1 to 5, and then after that Night say "If I'm a Cop, I targeted so-and-so last Night", and Cops could say the same thing after receiving a Town result.
I think I like this idea, unless someone can come up with a better one.
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Okay, so I'm caught up, but theory talk just isn't my niche, and it's hard to do any social deduction from everyone talking theory.
That being said, I maintain that the guys who are being sensible are more likely to be scum than those introducing radical ideas. Changing your mind from discussion is a town trait as well, I think.
If you want my opinion on theory, I think no claiming at all for day 1 and let's go from there. We should do whatever we can to get as many cop investigations in as possible, they are our strength in this setup.
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Vote: TwistedArcher
It does help to move the game towards social deduction if people start voting. This is unfair because TA really made some good points, but the way he laid them out, all sense-making and noncontroversial, is just how scum likes to blend in in my opinion.
As I get more experienced with mafia, I too am starting to suffer from a case of Robziaitis, which is caring less and less how others view you or your alignment, and more and more about just doing what you think will work.
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chairs has replaced mail-mi. Thread will open in several hours.
This isn't strong evidence, but I think if chairs was mafia, sudgy would have given him some more time to talk to his scumbuddies.
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chairs has replaced mail-mi. Thread will open in several hours.
This isn't strong evidence, but I think if chairs was mafia, sudgy would have given him some more time to talk to his scumbuddies.
It is horrible evidence.
We don't know when chairs subbed in or when he was given the QT for the mafia. It may have been when sudgy typed this up, it may have been hours before... 12 hours elapsed between the time that sudgy announced a need for a sub and announcing game start...
or maybe chairs as scum said he didn't need the time and was ok with a start (I would do this as a sub and seeing I was mafia for the town cred that would come from someone thinking like you)
So it all comes out as null to me.
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That being said, I maintain that the guys who are being sensible are more likely to be scum than those introducing radical ideas. Changing your mind from discussion is a town trait as well, I think.
I agree with this. It gives me a small town read on faust.
Has chairs posted yet? I don't think so. vote: chairs.
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Sorry I've been absent, I'll be reading and posting my thoughts tonight.
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oh shoot, that doesn't work....
nights don't flip right?
There has to be another way to get that or something like that to work though...
Each Doctor could randomly decide a number from 1 to 5, and then after that Night say "If I'm a Cop, I targeted so-and-so last Night", and Cops could say the same thing after receiving a Town result.
I think this is good? Does anyone see flaws I don't? I might argue that N1 or N2 docs roll numbers between 3-5, for example, to increase the odds they live as a VT to be NKed by mafia. If they actually stop the kill on 1 or 2 they can just claim then (if that's for the best) and town is never confused. This is a good thing, right? Good modification to the plan?
I also think players should claim their night at L-1 and nothing else, but that everyone must claim their night. It maximizes our information post-flip given the whole "If I were a Cop..." situation. Cool?
Again, theory makes my head hurt. Let me know if I'm missing anything obvious.
Also small town read on Archetype, I think, in addition to faust. Null on everyone else.
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I also think players should claim their night at L-1 and nothing else, but that everyone must claim their night.
To be clear, I'm only talking about players at L-1 with intent to hammer. I don't think this should affect our lynching decision at all, rather we should let the person have a chance to say it in case they're town and have results we can later see.
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Eevee, that's kinda a damned if I do, damned if I don't situation, isn't it? I get what you're saying, and to be fair, a lot of my thoughts on setup were formed well before the game ever started, but are you really saying that you think I wouldn't act that way as town?
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Eevee, that's kinda a damned if I do, damned if I don't situation, isn't it? I get what you're saying, and to be fair, a lot of my thoughts on setup were formed well before the game ever started, but are you really saying that you think I wouldn't act that way as town?
I think what Eevee is saying is that it makes you more likely to be scum, not that you are scum. I personally disagree with Eevee about you specifically (you behaved this way with the Hider plan in Clue as town), but I understand Eevee's vote.
So what I'm saying is that you're null for all of this.
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Eevee, that's kinda a damned if I do, damned if I don't situation, isn't it? I get what you're saying, and to be fair, a lot of my thoughts on setup were formed well before the game ever started, but are you really saying that you think I wouldn't act that way as town?
Yea, town is lazy or careless more often than scum.
The problem with my vote is that it incentivizes bad play. So, for the record, despite the vote I do appreciate your contributions and think they are helping town.
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Right, I get how you could have a null read on me (similar to how I have a null read on Yuma for speaking sense). But to me, his vote is saying that I wouldn't be likely to act this way as town, but only as scum, which is a sentiment I strongly disagree with.
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In general, I suppose that's probably true, eevee.
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So, since we've established you like theory, TA, any comments on my tweak to Jimmmmm's plan? ;)
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"Thanks for all the help you dirty scum." That's what I heard...
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I mean, it just seems like a more complex way of us making sure that everyone claims before they die. I don't get what it accomplishes that just simply waiting for a claim before any lynch (even if claim isn't going to change the vote) does.
So it's not bad but I really don't get the point? Am I missing something?
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"Thanks for all the help you dirty scum." That's what I heard...
I don't know what you're referring to here.
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I mean, it just seems like a more complex way of us making sure that everyone claims before they die. I don't get what it accomplishes that just simply waiting for a claim before any lynch (even if claim isn't going to change the vote) does.
So it's not bad but I really don't get the point? Am I missing something?
No, I'm talking about the N1 and N2 doctors that may or may not exist not rolling 1-5, but 3-5, to increase the odds they're alive as hidden VTs for mafia to accidentally kill, since they'd be indistinguishable from N3-5 cops.
The "claim night at L-1" was originally a yuma idea, I think, and simply something I was re-stating.
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Wait, but this goes hand in hand with a night claim, which I don't want to do. I'm confused. If there's not a night claim, aren't we just claiming random arbitrary numbers which have no impact?
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Oh, I see. But that could lead to doctors potentially clearing scum until their flip which is bad. Because saying "if I'm a cop, I targeted Voltaire last night" and then not pulling a scum result on you is the same as saying "I copped Voltaire, he's town", isn't it? Which will be meaningless if I flip doctor, but not all doctors are going to flip, we want some to stay alive.
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If the point is to cover for cops, we want to be covering for cops who have their power in future nights. Once a cop has used the power, they're useless, and if scum wants to nk them, that's actually great, since their result is confirmed. We want to cover for future cops, and the best way to do that is to all pretend we are future cops.
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Wait, but this goes hand in hand with a night claim, which I don't want to do. I'm confused. If there's not a night claim, aren't we just claiming random arbitrary numbers which have no impact?
No it doesn't. Here's the plan, in full, as I currently understand/propose it:
1. Cops with a town result will claim the day after their investigation in their first post, hypothetically. So, a N1 cop who investigates town tonight opens tomorrow saying "If I were a N1 cop, I targeted Voltaire last night." If this Cop ever dies, we now know his target was town.
2. Doctors will randomly roll numbers 1-5 and, on the day after their "investigation", claim in their first post. So a N2 doctor who rolled "1" opens tomorrow saying "If I were a N1 cop, I targeted Voltaire last night." If this Doc ever dies, we now know they were just protecting our cops.
Mafia won't ever kill these claimed players, which means if the claimed player is a Doc they're almost certain to live until their actual investigation.
I am advocating that Doctors (and I think this would work for all doctors) all roll numbers 3-5, for example, instead of 1-5. This increases the number of days they are alive without "claiming" and ups the odds mafia NKs them.
I view the goal of doctors in this game to draw the NK.
So...thoughts? Actually I am now confused why this is any different from Cops just claiming their result the moment they have it. The act of typing this up made it fall to pieces in my head. Um.....
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Oh, I see. But that could lead to doctors potentially clearing scum until their flip which is bad. Because saying "if I'm a cop, I targeted Voltaire last night" and then not pulling a scum result on you is the same as saying "I copped Voltaire, he's town", isn't it? Which will be meaningless if I flip doctor, but not all doctors are going to flip, we want some to stay alive.
Crap, you're right. Hmph.
Honestly I don't see anything better than just "Cops, always claim your result" right now.
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But isn't the best way to protect future cops by doctors to stay quiet and pretend they haven't had a result yet, thus drawing the night kill? I'm not sure how this plan will help keep the n3, n4, n5 cop alive. I'm against this.
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We want to cover for future cops, and the best way to do that is to all pretend we are future cops.
Yeah, which is just never claiming anything unless it's real. OK, I officially renounce all plans I think (even night claiming). Cops claim post-investigation (maybe delay your claim into the middle of the day if you can do it well, ala Jimmmmm in Chocolate), everyone else shutup, I think.
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the idea was to have the information exist w/o a town cop saying that his result was already used up--and thus likely to no longer be targeted by mafia... but the lack of night flips prevents it. if their is a way to figure it out we should do it, but there isn't an obvious solution at the moment.
flavor names would allow it, but we are lacking flavor names,...
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No, I don't think there is a way, unfortunately. Plus I feel like the recent use of flavor names may be heading towards abusing flavor names a little too much).
Town results should maybe be claimed, but by the end of the day rather than at the beginning (unless the target is a viable lynch target). It's definitely useful to see who ends up pushing a wagon on town members, as well.
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No, I don't think there is a way, unfortunately. Plus I feel like the recent use of flavor names may be heading towards abusing flavor names a little too much).
oh i absolutely agree and am personally glad there are no flavo names and recommend future mods take a page out of this or create rules that do not allow for their abuse...
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vote: pps
Slight scum read currently inflated by his interaction with Faust and Voltaire, who I find to be slightly townier.
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I'm down to vote: pps. Bad gut feel from the tone of his posts/AtE/etc.
I honestly don't think I've ever played with town PPS though.
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TL;DR bolded
So I have some time today to do some reading and catching up, so it's time for some reads (since I'm going back and reading more closely, I'm also going to give opinions on people's plans):
Archetype: First one to bring in the idea of claiming. Brings up good point that claiming day can give scum a free pass. Sticking to his guns, and giving reasons. However, I'm not sure about his vote on nkirbit... And he never seems to explain it, even after "leaning towards no massclaim" as nkirbit suggested. Read: very slight scum
yuma: Good advice telling people to not claim willy-nilly, makes a good point about faust not moving his vote. Keeping his vote on yuma at this point isn't doing any good. Otherwise speaking sense. Read: null to slight town
Jimmmm: on board with claiming when their death cannot stop their power. Good advice to make sure town knows the setup, could have been a little more helpful by laying out exactly what we should know, but it's fine. Kind of feels like he's buddying yuma.I agree with Jimmmm that PPS posts were kind of difficult to understand. Read: null
faust: proposes everyone claim cop/doc today, I think the best part of this plan is that scum has to fake-claim today, reducing their flexibility. I'm not sure what to take away from his immediate jumping on yuma, I'm not sure why playing the setup before means you need original thoughts. He is the first to specify that people should not claim their nights, which I think is very good. Comes up with the plan "If my shot was tonight I would have targeted XXX" Which I think is a pretty good plan. It allows for deduction of what happened at night, but does not give scum all the information. Plus, it causes them to make more fakeclaims.
Don't like his "evidence" of chairs not being scum (like yuma), seems like he is looking for any excuse to get people on his side. Read: slight town
PPS: Vote on Robz is fine, I'm assuming it's to make him post some more... But you know, it could just be because Robz is Robz... I think some of the hubub around him has been a misunderstanding, specifically this post:which seems to be a thought that has 12 steps of background he did in his head and jumped to the conclusion he wrote down (I do this all the time in real life... It can get awkward...). He is quite quick to jump down Jimmmm's and faust's throats. Not a fan. He does explain his thought process, and while I think it is flawed, that gives me a null read (both town and scum can be wrong).
This scenario will never come to pass. Reasons:
- you assume only docs die until D3. That would mean that town lynches claimed docs twice, which is something we can prevent.
It is patently obvious that I assume at least one successful Mafia lynch.
it wasn't obvious to me until I re-read it at least twice. I don't like your condescension. It's not helping town. Getting inflamed is often, in my experience, a town trait, but I've never played with PPS. Read: slight scum
Volt: The lack of presence is somewhat disconcerting to me. He was quite vocal and making waves in Modern Community (where we were town best-friends) and he doesn't seem to be doing that here. Slight scum read for not making waves. Probably not good to base my read off one game, but that's all I got. I really don't understand this rolling plan... Read: slight scum
nkirbit: speaks sense. However, not much going on w/ him Read: null
scott_pilgrim: Null, not really getting anything on him. (side note: Oooh, where do you go to school in the east? I'm in PA) Read: null
TA: also speaks sense, and makes a good point about PPS: someone being wrong on theory doesn't make them scummy. He's actually putting reads out there already and not just talking straight theory (he does talk plenty of theory, but really, he's the only one putting out reads up to Pg 9.) Read: town
Eevee: only thinks cops with results claim. Otherwise, not seeing much Read: null
Robz: He needs to show up... Read: null
chairs: see Robz Read: null
I don't think I missed anyone... but that's what I have so far. As far as plans go: cops should claim on positive scum result. Docs: never claim. see: nkirbit and TA's arguments.
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Volt: The lack of presence is somewhat disconcerting to me. He was quite vocal and making waves in Modern Community (where we were town best-friends) and he doesn't seem to be doing that here. Slight scum read for not making waves. Probably not good to base my read off one game, but that's all I got. I really don't understand this rolling plan... Read: slight scum
Hee hee. This again. Of course now I have to say that this case has never been pushed on me by town while I am town (as I was scum when Robz used it against me in Chocolate), so...I can't really OMGUS you I guess. :(
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I don't want to vote for Ahoppy as I don't really want to discourage his type of posts or behavior (motivating people to post reads not theory), but I am always wary of the player taking on that role as it is one that is so easily done by scum...
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It is very easy, but why would you vote him for it? Just take it as a null action and appreciate that it moves the game forward.
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That is why I am not voting for him. But I don't take it as a null action. Honestly I take it as a slightly scummier action, but not one that I am about to vote solely because of. If it was just a null action I wouldn't have said anything about it.
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Gotcha. You and Eevee have both expressed scum reads to players doing easy pro-town things, and I don't want to discourage town players doing pro-town things. If scum is going to help us out, so be it. If AHoppy is scum, it's good to have a post like that on your radar but it takes more to prove it later on.
Basically I want to make sure we're not discouraging town from playing lest they receive votes!
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Basically I want to make sure we're not discouraging town from playing lest they receive votes!
Right, hence why I am not voting. It is a tricky situation and one that I think the best thing to do is to just have town actually act pro-town for once.
You know... maybe have them post with regularity, provide clear, concise re-reads, don't tunnel or claim at ridiculous moments? Really though people shouldn't be discouraged from doing pro-town things as town... they should just be doing it anyways because they are town and shouldn't care what other people think.
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Oops, after reading Ahoppy's post, I realized that the PPS interaction was with Jimmm/Faust, not with Voltaire/Faust.
I'm not seeing the lack of presence from Voltaire really. Seems normal.
Last 5 posts = Yuma/Voltaire agreeing = clearly, one of them MUST be scum! ;)
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Is deadline really on the 16th? 5 days for D1?
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This game will have 14 day deadlines and 48 hour night deadlines.
Must be a typo
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I'm not seeing the lack of presence from Voltaire really. Seems normal.
He's definitely not the lowest poster, but he isn't pissing people off like he did in Modern Community. His stances aren't as strong as they were there.
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I'm not seeing the lack of presence from Voltaire really. Seems normal.
He's definitely not the lowest poster, but he isn't pissing people off like he did in Modern Community. His stances aren't as strong as they were there.
To be fair, we just started. I don't have good reads on most people yet...what exactly are you expecting from him?
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I'm not seeing the lack of presence from Voltaire really. Seems normal.
He's definitely not the lowest poster, but he isn't pissing people off like he did in Modern Community. His stances aren't as strong as they were there.
Everyone else must be nicer now. :)
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I have a plan.
Everyone states that "If I am a Night X cop, tonight I will target so-and-so". Every Day.
This avoids the night claim, but creates plenty of WIFOM to help avoid scum targeting the "right" people. Conversely, if we get some cop results, our cops will probably want to avoid claiming those results outright unless they catch scum, as "so-and-so is town" becomes an easier scum fakeclaim. We still have to come up with a way for cops to claim Town results in a manner that only reveals they've done so when they die (but due to flips we can't just say "If I die and flip cop, X is town" unless we only have people who have results and doctors claim it, which splits off our docs in a way I'm not comfortable with).
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On second thought, blah, why don't we just not do some funky claiming plan. I had a thought going there, but now I can't remember where this gets us as far as successful results based on flips.
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Yeah, I now think Cops with any result should claim, and no claiming otherwise.
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I have a plan.
Everyone states that "If I am a Night X cop, tonight I will target so-and-so". Every Day.
This avoids the night claim, but creates plenty of WIFOM to help avoid scum targeting the "right" people. Conversely, if we get some cop results, our cops will probably want to avoid claiming those results outright unless they catch scum, as "so-and-so is town" becomes an easier scum fakeclaim. We still have to come up with a way for cops to claim Town results in a manner that only reveals they've done so when they die (but due to flips we can't just say "If I die and flip cop, X is town" unless we only have people who have results and doctors claim it, which splits off our docs in a way I'm not comfortable with).
Players would just flip as "Cop' or "Doctor", so I don't think this would work. I still standby my thinking that Cops should claim immediately no matter who they investigate.
I forgot I was voting nkiribt. Unvote. Just RVS to gauge reactions. Towny read on nkiribt and PPS.
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Yeah, I now think Cops with any result should claim, and no claiming otherwise.
Although a mass Cop/Doc claim should still happen at some point closer to lylo.
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Why towny on PPS/nkirbit?
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Why towny on PPS/nkirbit?
PPS reminds me of himself in Grimm Tale and NOT like himself at all in DW. Nkirbit because the only reaction I got from my vote was AHoppy, which gives nkiribit some Town points.
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Can you elaborate? I've never played with PPS, so I'm not sure exactly what you're saying here.
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Can you elaborate? I've never played with PPS, so I'm not sure exactly what you're saying here.
When PPS plays as scum I've seen him be a lot more straightforward and not taking such...different views, I guess you could call it. I mean no offense PPS, but here he isn't really making sense which is something I've never seen him do.
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I'm pretty sure it's impossible to get any information out of someone after they die, other than what is revealed in the flip. You can't make a conditional claim like "If I'm a doc, I targeted X; if I'm a cop, I targeted Y" because that's only meaningful if they actually are a cop. And since the flip is the only new information related to that person that happens when they die, other than the fact that they died, then there's no way to get anything else out of them.
You could try something like "If I'm a cop, I targeted X and found out he was scum/town" and everyone makes a new claim of that form every day (overriding their previous claims), and stops making those claims after they have used their cop role, but then if a night x cop flips before night x, then the information that we get from him is actually wrong.
So yeah, I think we should stick with no one revealing, except cops after they have new information. (I still think it's best for cops to reveal when they find out someone is town, especially since presumably they will be using it to find out about controversial people.)
(side note: Oooh, where do you go to school in the east? I'm in PA)
I go to school in NY.
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So yeah, I think we should stick with no one revealing
By revealing, I mean claiming.
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I'm not making any sense but mysteriously everyone who was arguing against me eventually agreed mass claims this early are not a good idea. So, apparently I'm not communicating very well what have been found to be quite sensible ideas.
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Vote Count 1.2
Eevee (1): Jimmmmm
Robz888 (1): pingpongsam
pingpongsam (3): faust, Twistedarcher, Voltaire
faust (1): yuma
Twistedarcher (1): Eevee
Not Voting (6): AHoppy, Robz888, chairs, scott_pilgrim, nkirbit, Archetype
With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.
Day 1 ends January 23rd, 12:00 AM. Sorry for the typo.
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I would say right now if I had to guess where scum is in the above vote count, I would say 1 is voting for PPS and at least 1 is not voting.... or PPS is scum, but I am thinking one on PPS is scum. So i'll keep voting for faust.
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I would say right now if I had to guess where scum is in the above vote count, I would say 1 is voting for PPS and at least 1 is not voting.... or PPS is scum, but I am thinking one on PPS is scum. So i'll keep voting for faust.
Really? Is it for that or is it for his so-called "lame" vote on you earlier, which was clearly just a misunderstanding?
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Where is Robz?
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I would say right now if I had to guess where scum is in the above vote count, I would say 1 is voting for PPS and at least 1 is not voting.... or PPS is scum, but I am thinking one on PPS is scum. So i'll keep voting for faust.
Really? Is it for that or is it for his so-called "lame" vote on you earlier, which was clearly just a misunderstanding?
I don't think it was a misunderstanding, at least not the crux of it which was summed up in bold:
vote: yuma for now. Has apparently played this setup before, but his contributions are a bit lacking original thought for that. And the whole "I'm so glad I'm not scum" thing rubs me the wrong way.
1. lacking original thought
2. rubbing him the wrong way
neither of which are valid reasons for a vote, while the third part 3. apparently played this game before is just a sidebar to the whole discussion.
But that alone wouldn't be enough for me to keep my vote there if there was something else a bit more pertinent elsewhere (there hasn't been), but me thinking there is scum somewhere on the pps wagon is.
(That and if I keep voting for and lynching) faust often enough in the games we play in, eventually he is bound to flip mafia right?
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Where is Robz?
this is a good question especially as he has an announced VLA starting tomorrow though Saturday, but not for today....
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I would say right now if I had to guess where scum is in the above vote count, I would say 1 is voting for PPS and at least 1 is not voting.... or PPS is scum, but I am thinking one on PPS is scum. So i'll keep voting for faust.
Why? I've never really understood the reasoning behind trying to figure out how scum must be distributing their votes etc. Scum are either trying to act Towny, in which case they have their votes where they think they would be if they were Town, or they are trying to ensure they interact in ways we won't expect them to, and their expectations of our expectations vary from person to person. It could be faust/Twisted/Volt for all I know. Or it could be pps/yuma/Eevee. So tell me why a particular person is likely to be scum. But I just don't really buy, "at least one scum must be voting for pps, and I choose faust". I don't recall this kind of reasoning being used successfully by Town, but it's definitely been used by scum to try to encourage assumptions.
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I would say right now if I had to guess where scum is in the above vote count, I would say 1 is voting for PPS and at least 1 is not voting.... or PPS is scum, but I am thinking one on PPS is scum. So i'll keep voting for faust.
Why? I've never really understood the reasoning behind trying to figure out how scum must be distributing their votes etc. Scum are either trying to act Towny, in which case they have their votes where they think they would be if they were Town, or they are trying to ensure they interact in ways we won't expect them to, and their expectations of our expectations vary from person to person. It could be faust/Twisted/Volt for all I know. Or it could be pps/yuma/Eevee. So tell me why a particular person is likely to be scum. But I just don't really buy, "at least one scum must be voting for pps, and I choose faust". I don't recall this kind of reasoning being used successfully by Town, but it's definitely been used by scum to try to encourage assumptions.
the part in bold, but your point about varying from person to person does have merit
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(That and if I keep voting for and lynching) faust often enough in the games we play in, eventually he is bound to flip mafia right?
It worked with Arch in Time War.
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sorry, just the first part of that sentence should be bolded... but the part after the bold is what I think does have merit...
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Teproc has replaced nkirbit.
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(That and if I keep voting for and lynching) faust often enough in the games we play in, eventually he is bound to flip mafia right?
It worked with Arch in Time War.
Except that I came flying in and suggested no-lynch....
speaking of which, has that been considered here? I am thinking it is probably bad (it almost always is) but again, with as many PRs as we have do we want the game to be extended longer so more people have a chance to potentially catch scum?
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Actually, no lynch could be a good idea. It makes N4 and N5 cops more likely to get used, too.
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(That and if I keep voting for and lynching) faust often enough in the games we play in, eventually he is bound to flip mafia right?
It worked with Arch in Time War.
Except that I came flying in and suggested no-lynch....
speaking of which, has that been considered here? I am thinking it is probably bad (it almost always is) but again, with as many PRs as we have do we want the game to be extended longer so more people have a chance to potentially catch scum?
Actually, I originally suggested it. You liked it and actually argued for it. It was a scum trap that just barely didn't work. The whole plan was to get someone to look scummy as hell for arguing for no-lynch. If they succeeded even better.
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sorry, just the first part of that sentence should be bolded... but the part after the bold is what I think does have merit...
So you're saying that there must be at least one scum who thinks they would be voting for pps if they were Town?
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I would say right now if I had to guess where scum is in the above vote count, I would say 1 is voting for PPS and at least 1 is not voting.... or PPS is scum, but I am thinking one on PPS is scum. So i'll keep voting for faust.
Vote:Yuma
Rather than trying to access whether or not PPS is scum, he's trying to find someone on the PPS wagon. He hasn't put forth a read on PPS, instead, is looking for someone voting for PPS to put suspicion on.
Looking for scum on a wagon, rather than trying to access if the wagon is correct, is something that scum do more than town.
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I would say right now if I had to guess where scum is in the above vote count, I would say 1 is voting for PPS and at least 1 is not voting.... or PPS is scum, but I am thinking one on PPS is scum. So i'll keep voting for faust.
I guess you are right TA, there isn't a read in my quote here, although I certainly intended there to be one as I agreed with whomever it was that said PPS was being more like the Innovation? PPS than the DW PPS
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(That and if I keep voting for and lynching) faust often enough in the games we play in, eventually he is bound to flip mafia right?
It worked with Arch in Time War.
Except that I came flying in and suggested no-lynch....
speaking of which, has that been considered here? I am thinking it is probably bad (it almost always is) but again, with as many PRs as we have do we want the game to be extended longer so more people have a chance to potentially catch scum?
Actually, I originally suggested it. You liked it and actually argued for it. It was a scum trap that just barely didn't work. The whole plan was to get someone to look scummy as hell for arguing for no-lynch. If they succeeded even better.
Hmmm, I don't remember you suggesting it, what initially triggered me thinking about it was nkirbit? I think? talking about how the town wouldn't allow a no-lynch to go through and votes would be cast at the last minute if needed... and it got me thinking "would that be so bad" same thing applies here... "would that be so bad"
I'll give it some thought tomorrow as I am about to head to bed.
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Looking for scum on a wagon, rather than trying to access if the wagon is correct, is something that scum do more than town.
But while we are discussing this, let's also discuss this:
Throwing out blanket statements, rather than providing evidence to show it as such, is something that scum do more than town.
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I know it's something I've done twice -- I did it D1 in Innovation on the mail-mi wagon, and in Modern Community on the nkirbit D1 wagon. I know Nkirbit did it D1 in clue on the AShersky wagon. When I did it in Modern Community, I knew immediately "crap, I shouldn't have done that", and I was called out on it, and it's a red flag I noted to specifically look for in future games.
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Basically, I think that town wants to think "Is PPS scum? Let's try to figure that out", while scum might skip that step, since they don't have to spend the time thinking if PPS is scum. Pre-emptive wagon analysis before a flip is less likely from town (and you're right, that's a blanket statement, but it's one I believe to be true).
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Also, if Yuma is scum, I doubt he covers for a partner like that D1, so PPS is probably town. So a bit townier on PPS now.
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Town read on TA, with the disclaimer that what Eevee said makes sense.
Slight scum read on yuma, with the disclaimer that yuma is supposed to be super hard to catch as scum.
Scum read on myself for posting hedgy disclaimers.
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Okay, I'm aiming to read and catch up in the next two days. I just haven't had time for everything and have had to prioritize other games, Survivor and real life.
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Hey there people !
As far as claiming, not claiming goes, here's where I stand :
- Doctors never claim.
- Cops claim with a guilty result
Jimmmm's plan of doctors rolling 1-5 and saying who they would have investigated is very interesting. It has problems :
- If a doc says he targeted scum and doesn't say anything about his result, scum will know he's lying. I'm not sure this is actually that big a deal. You could say it reduces their NK pool, but that would happen anyway : if they're trying to kill future cops, they will target people who haven't "claimed" a night yet anyway.
- TA's objection that a doctor might clear someone accidentally. I don't think that's true at all, it's pretty simple : we shouldn't assume anything until someone full claims. The whole claiming after the night is just something we can look at once they die, not something we should base votes on the next day.
The alternative is to just allow cops to claim with any result. I think we should do either one of these (either cops always claiming after investigation or the numbers thing).
I think you should only claim a night at L-1 if your night has already come and gone. Obviously no one should claim their night at L-1 on day 1, that would be ridiculous, but the same goes for a night-2/3/4/5 PR on day 2. That seems like a good idea because it's not even something that prevents your lynch at all, so scum can't make much of it.
I agree that yuma's wagon analysis is scummy. At the very least it's wrong, because some people like Robz or myself have not voted because we were absent more than anything else. In fact, the more I think about it, the less I believe town!yuma would do something like that.
vote: yuma
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Town read on TA, with the disclaimer that what Eevee said makes sense.
If you think what Eevee said makes sense, by your/his own logic, you should probably be voting for him, shouldn't you ?
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Town read on TA, with the disclaimer that what Eevee said makes sense.
If you think what Eevee said makes sense, by your/his own logic, you should probably be voting for him, shouldn't you ?
Yes.
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Oh you are ! I thought you had unvoted at some point since that was RVS.
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I would say right now if I had to guess where scum is in the above vote count, I would say 1 is voting for PPS and at least 1 is not voting.... or PPS is scum, but I am thinking one on PPS is scum. So i'll keep voting for faust.
Well... that's a lame reason to vote me.
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I don't think it was a misunderstanding, at least not the crux of it which was summed up in bold:
vote: yuma for now. Has apparently played this setup before, but his contributions are a bit lacking original thought for that. And the whole "I'm so glad I'm not scum" thing rubs me the wrong way.
1. lacking original thought
2. rubbing him the wrong way
neither of which are valid reasons for a vote, while the third part 3. apparently played this game before is just a sidebar to the whole discussion.
But that alone wouldn't be enough for me to keep my vote there if there was something else a bit more pertinent elsewhere (there hasn't been), but me thinking there is scum somewhere on the pps wagon is.
(That and if I keep voting for and lynching) faust often enough in the games we play in, eventually he is bound to flip mafia right?
My post was roughly what? The tenth in-game post or so? If something you do is rubbing me the wrong way at that point, that's more than enough reason for a vote.
I know the last part of this isn't serious, but the fact that you mislynch me as town on a regular basis should maybe make you second-guess your opinion on me.
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I think faust's points against yuma are more reasonable than yuma's points against him (and I think it's worth noting because I rarely disagree with yuma's points). "Rubbing me the wrong way" is just another way of expressing a gut feeling, and we shouldn't just dismiss those, especially day 1 when there is no strong hard evidence anyways.
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Actually, no lynch could be a good idea. It makes N4 and N5 cops more likely to get used, too.
I think this is interesting, and I want to do some math to see just how good it is (because I like to do math). Don't have the time right now though, so it will have to wait.
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(because I like to do math)
It's statements like this that make you seem suspicious.
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Looking for scum on a wagon, rather than trying to access if the wagon is correct, is something that scum do more than town.
But while we are discussing this, let's also discuss this:
Throwing out blanket statements, rather than providing evidence to show it as such, is something that scum do more than town.
Pretty sure this is wrong.
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(because I like to do math)
It's statements like this that make you seem suspicious.
No, it's statements like these that are completely null. I don't doubt that Faust likes to do math, regardless of whether he's town or scum.
It's unusual that I am disagreeing with you this much this early. You seem to be playing much less from your gut than you normally do.
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I think Eevee was making a joke?
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I think Eevee was making a joke?
Meh, tone is hard on the Internet :(
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I can see the argument TA makes on yuma. The tricky part is that yuma is such a good player for either side, that I'd be hard-pressed to lynch him D1 when instead we might lynch someone who's a less useful later-days Town player. However, that's a relatively damning argument (for D1).
Hrm.
I'm intrigued at the concept of no-lynch as well, because it gives our N1 Cop(s) and Doc(s) (if any exist) an opportunity to burn their power and potentially get some results, hopefully with a doc saving us from the NK. The more cop results we can get with successful doctorings, the more we can reduce our pool, etc. - it's too bad we can't come up with a mechanism that lets us know what days we have docs on without revealing our doctors (and I've -really- thought about it, couldn't come up with anything safe), because if we knew we could have the appropriate cops claim those Days to be doctored.
The big disadvantage there is that NKs will always be Town, whereas lynches can be Mafia...
Reading through mafiascum games now.
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I'm usually in favor of D1 No Lynches, but not here. I think a lynch is vital in determining who N1 Cops should investigate and N1 Docs to protect. If we no lynch it decreases the effectiveness of those roles working.
Vote: chairs. His "(if they exist)" sort of rubbed me the wrong way. Not RVS, but not super serious either.
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Vote: Arch
His "Not RVS, but not super serious either." rubbed me the wrong way.
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Vote: chairs. His "(if they exist)" sort of rubbed me the wrong way. Not RVS, but not super serious either.
... Why ?
By the way, I understand I'm coming in a bit late to the theory talk, but I do think the "rolling 1 to 5" plan is good, and it only works if everyone agrees to it. As I explained above, I don't think TA's objection is a problem at all, and I don't see much else that would be wrong with it.
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Vote: chairs. His "(if they exist)" sort of rubbed me the wrong way. Not RVS, but not super serious either.
... Why ?
By the way, I understand I'm coming in a bit late to the theory talk, but I do think the "rolling 1 to 5" plan is good, and it only works if everyone agrees to it. As I explained above, I don't think TA's objection is a problem at all, and I don't see much else that would be wrong with it.
I don't think it's going to happen, and regardless of whether it's a good plan, at this point I think it's unhelpful to keep pushing for it.
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I disagree. Theory talk isn't the most productive thing as far as helping out with reads and such, but it is still useful, and we do have longer deadlines in this game (14 days instead of 10).
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Vote: chairs. His "(if they exist)" sort of rubbed me the wrong way. Not RVS, but not super serious either.
... Why ?
By the way, I understand I'm coming in a bit late to the theory talk, but I do think the "rolling 1 to 5" plan is good, and it only works if everyone agrees to it. As I explained above, I don't think TA's objection is a problem at all, and I don't see much else that would be wrong with it.
I have actually come to dislike this plan, but for a reason I don't think anyone has stated yet.
It is thus: that a doctor pretending to have a town result may actually make a mafia appear to be town for that day. Or the inverse, the fear of this will cause people to suspect someone who a cop says is town for fear that the claiming player is a doc and is wrong... all of this speculation obviously goes away once said player dies... but until that point we are left w/o concrete information.
To be clear here is an example:
Night1: Doc ashersky roles himself a 3. So day3 comes around and he says, "I investigated Insomniac last night." He doesn't know it, but Insomniac is mafia and now everyone will think that there is a pretty good chance that Insomniac is in fact town, at least until ashersky dies, which may or may not happen soon...
Or the inverse:
Night1: jotheonah is a day2 cop. So day2 comes around and he says, "I investigated CaptainFrisk last night." He knows it, but CaptainFrisk is in fact town, but because this isn't verifiable because town doesn't know that jotheonah is actually a cop and there isn't a way to distinguish him from a doc claiming to be a cop. The only way to verify it is to have jotheonah die, which may or may not happen soon...
see the problem?
I am thinking that cops should just immediately claim results when they get them. Docs just shouldn't say anything.
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I agree that yuma's wagon analysis is scummy. At the very least it's wrong, because some people like Robz or myself have not voted because we were absent more than anything else. In fact, the more I think about it, the less I believe town!yuma would do something like that.
vote: yuma
I fail to see how two players not voting affects three other players voting patterns....
Look, I am not saying there is certainly scum on the PPS wagon (or what was the wagon at the time), but rather that if I were asked that is where I would expect to find at least one. I don't see the problem with that sort of a statement. Add that to my already slight suspicions of faust... and you have my vote. Why can't you see town!yuma seeing something and then expressing his opinion about it?
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This has in fact been mentioned by TA and I don't think it's a big deal at all. To me, the point of the plan is only to get valuable info once people die, not to actually trust it before that. Basically we would just ignore those resulsts until we know for sure that someone is a cop or a doc through a flip.
PPE : I was referring to what you said about there being scum in the players not voting. I don't know, your reasoning just felt off and it semeed like you were jumping to conclusions.
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To me it is a huge deal. Reacting immediately to something like that is a big deal. Plus anyone with a result is then put into perpetual limbo. They obviously aren't going to be lynched right? Until we can confirm it... so we should what? Lynch the person giving out the result?
I say, get the results out, be as straightforward as possible and lessen the confusion. Confusion is only going to help mafia.
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PPE : I was referring to what you said about there being scum in the players not voting. I don't know, your reasoning just felt off and it semeed like you were jumping to conclusions.
There were 3 players voting for PPS, 3 players (1 was me, so 2 from my perspective) and 7 not voting...
So saying that "1 is likely voting for PPS and then 1 or 2 not voting" doesn't seem to be that extreme of an idea...
Or do you think that all of the scum was currently voting at that vote count? your lynch pool should be quite small then....
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Looking for scum on a wagon, rather than trying to access if the wagon is correct, is something that scum do more than town.
But while we are discussing this, let's also discuss this:
Throwing out blanket statements, rather than providing evidence to show it as such, is something that scum do more than town.
Pretty sure this is wrong.
Pretty sure I don't care whether it was right or wrong...
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I disagree. Theory talk isn't the most productive thing as far as helping out with reads and such, but it is still useful, and we do have longer deadlines in this game (14 days instead of 10).
We've already had a fair bit of theory talk. We've gone back and forth on different plans and I think most of us have come to the conclusion that at least for now claiming should be done only by Cops with a result. I think we should leave it at that instead of filling more pages up with theory talk, which is actually what scum tries to do sometimes.
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I'm not saying you're wrong, statistically you're probably right but it would be like me saying "if you look at the people whose name start with A-L, there's probably one scum". Sure, that's likely to be true, but it's not based on anything concrete and doesn't help in any way. Basically the fact that people aren't voting at this stage on the game is not really indicative on alignment in my mind.
Is it really that hard to just have those people claim targets and keep it in mind for later ? If a Cop has a scum result of course he should claim it, but I don't see what's "confusing" about the plan. To me the only problem is it helps scum POE their nightkill a little (they want to kill future cops, who aren't going to be claiming a result after night 1).
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Yeah yeah, I would agree with you Jimmmmm, it's just that, with the replacement situation, I wasn't actually there and fel frustrated when people moved away from the plan. It won't happen apparently, so I'll drop it.
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Is it really that hard to just have those people claim targets and keep it in mind for later ? If a Cop has a scum result of course he should claim it, but I don't see what's "confusing" about the plan. To me the only problem is it helps scum POE their nightkill a little (they want to kill future cops, who aren't going to be claiming a result after night 1).
What is confusing... or rather, what the problem is that this has the potential to remove a scum player from the lynch pool... due to town lying! this is a problem!!! It causes a disadvantage to town and thus should not even be considered...
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I disagree. Theory talk isn't the most productive thing as far as helping out with reads and such, but it is still useful, and we do have longer deadlines in this game (14 days instead of 10).
We've already had a fair bit of theory talk. We've gone back and forth on different plans and I think most of us have come to the conclusion that at least for now claiming should be done only by Cops with a result. I think we should leave it at that instead of filling more pages up with theory talk, which is actually what scum tries to do sometimes.
Thank you. Therefore I suggest this: in everyones next post, please vote for which plan you think is best:
Claim all roles (no days) today
Cops and Docs claim with results
only cops claim with results
Some weird number rolling thing
I for one, Vote: only cops should claim
(voting in italics to not confuse real votes)
Once everyone has chimed in, I say we go with the plan with the most votes. We need some solidarity for any plan to work, and I don't want any confusion over what we are all doing.
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Is it really that hard to just have those people claim targets and keep it in mind for later ? If a Cop has a scum result of course he should claim it, but I don't see what's "confusing" about the plan. To me the only problem is it helps scum POE their nightkill a little (they want to kill future cops, who aren't going to be claiming a result after night 1).
What is confusing... or rather, what the problem is that this has the potential to remove a scum player from the lynch pool... due to town lying! this is a problem!!! It causes a disadvantage to town and thus should not even be considered...
You're not reading my posts, are you ?
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Well the polling optiongs aren't biased at all, that's great. Whatever, I'll vote : only cops should claim, since that's the next best thing.
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Well the polling optiongs aren't biased at all, that's great. Whatever, I'll vote : only cops should claim, since that's the next best thing.
What do you suggest? These were the main Ideas I saw, so if you want another option, shoot.
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Well the polling optiongs aren't biased at all, that's great. Whatever, I'll vote : only cops should claim, since that's the next best thing.
What do you suggest? These were the main Ideas I saw, so if you want another option, shoot.
And if it's about me saying "some weird rolling thing" that's because I don't really understand it and I don't know how to describe it. If you can do it better, please do.
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I disagree. Theory talk isn't the most productive thing as far as helping out with reads and such, but it is still useful, and we do have longer deadlines in this game (14 days instead of 10).
We've already had a fair bit of theory talk. We've gone back and forth on different plans and I think most of us have come to the conclusion that at least for now claiming should be done only by Cops with a result. I think we should leave it at that instead of filling more pages up with theory talk, which is actually what scum tries to do sometimes.
Thank you. (continues with theory talk and suggests others do the same)
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I was referring to the "some weird number rolling thing". You do see how that doesn't seem like a particularly attractive thing to vote for ?
PPE : Jimmmm : to be fair, he is trying to end the theory talk with an actual decision, rather than just getting past it without actually reaching consensus. I don't think there's actually a contradiction here.
AHoppy : I just felt the "weird" qualifier obviously showed you disapproved of it, which is not something you should do if you want your poll to look serious. It's not actually a big deal since it's not happening either way.
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Is it really that hard to just have those people claim targets and keep it in mind for later ? If a Cop has a scum result of course he should claim it, but I don't see what's "confusing" about the plan. To me the only problem is it helps scum POE their nightkill a little (they want to kill future cops, who aren't going to be claiming a result after night 1).
What is confusing... or rather, what the problem is that this has the potential to remove a scum player from the lynch pool... due to town lying! this is a problem!!! It causes a disadvantage to town and thus should not even be considered...
You're not reading my posts, are you ?
No. I am just being a belligerent pain in the ass on purpose with the sole purpose of ticking you off...
or maybe your posts aren't easy to understand and I am confused...
nah... has to be the first right?
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My point was that the "results" we would get from this plan should be ignored as far as actual scumhunting goes. ie we wouldn't take the targets out of the lynch pool entirely. As I said, it would be used mostly to be able to get something out of a dead person's flip.
Based on your previous post, I thought you had understood that because you mentioned the fact that we would only get something out of this when the claimants died.
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My apologies, I see how my word choice was poor.
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My point was that the "results" we would get from this plan should be ignored as far as actual scumhunting goes. ie we wouldn't take the targets out of the lynch pool entirely. As I said, it would be used mostly to be able to get something out of a dead person's flip.
Based on your previous post, I thought you had understood that because you mentioned the fact that we would only get something out of this when the claimants died.
and I say that is extremely dumb! Because there very well could be a real cop result in there and then we are going to just go ahead and ignore it and lynch the player.
If I was a cop and had a town result and then town decided to up and lynch that very player I would be furious!
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Jimmmm : to be fair, he is trying to end the theory talk with an actual decision, rather than just getting past it without actually reaching consensus. I don't think there's actually a contradiction here.
Yeah, I know that's what he was trying to do. But he's asking for opinions on something that most or all of us have already expressed opinions on. Why not just check everyone's last expressed opinion and post the results?
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Because people's opinions change. Mine changed multiple times over the discussion. I want people to commit to one plan so that we can move on.
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I was referring to the "some weird number rolling thing". You do see how that doesn't seem like a particularly attractive thing to vote for ?
I don't think calling it weird says anything about how good of an option it is, if I thought it was the best plan I would totally vote for it as "some weird number rolling thing".
vote: only cops claim with results
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I agree with Yuma. Docs should just stay quiet.
I disagree with saying "let's not talk about theory anymore". We will talk about what we want to talk about, and shouldn't try to artificially end any conversations. Personally i don't have a lot more to say, as it's clear we aren't doing any claiming, but people can talk about what they want to talk about -- natural conversation is a good thing, not a bad thing, even if it's about theory.
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only cops claim with results
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only cops claim with results
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I agree with Yuma. Docs should just stay quiet.
I disagree with saying "let's not talk about theory anymore". We will talk about what we want to talk about, and shouldn't try to artificially end any conversations. Personally i don't have a lot more to say, as it's clear we aren't doing any claiming, but people can talk about what they want to talk about -- natural conversation is a good thing, not a bad thing, even if it's about theory.
Natural conversation is a good thing. A huge Day 1 filled with 30 pages of theory is a bad thing.
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only cops claim with results
As much as I love theory talk (and really, I do), after we reach the consensus I figured we'd make in the first place, I'll do a reread to see if I can get some legit reads on players.
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Now I finally had time, and ran some statstics. I implemented mafia games with this setup with the following strategies:
- Standard:
Cops claim with a guilty result. If there is at least one guilty result, town lynches them. Else town lynches randomly. Scum never fakeclaims and kils randomly each night. Docs and Cops target randomly.
- No-Lynch:
Cops claim with a guilty result. If there is at least one guilty result, town lynches them. Else, if there is at least one unlcaimed Cop alive, town no-lynches. Else town lynches randomly. Scum never fakeclaims and kills randomly each night. Docs and Cops target randomly.
I ran 100.000 games with each strategy. Results are this:
Standard wins 12,1% of the games.
No-Lynch wins 29,6% of the games.
This is some quite strong evidence I think that we are better off no-lynching until 4 Cops are outed.
Vote: No Lynch
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Pretty sure I don't care whether it was right or wrong...
You don't care if it's right or wrong? Wouldn't that mean you don't care if it's actually useful in finding scum?
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Now I finally had time, and ran some statstics. I implemented mafia games with this setup with the following strategies:
- Standard:
Cops claim with a guilty result. If there is at least one guilty result, town lynches them. Else town lynches randomly. Scum never fakeclaims and kils randomly each night. Docs and Cops target randomly.
- No-Lynch:
Cops claim with a guilty result. If there is at least one guilty result, town lynches them. Else, if there is at least one unlcaimed Cop alive, town no-lynches. Else town lynches randomly. Scum never fakeclaims and kills randomly each night. Docs and Cops target randomly.
I ran 100.000 games with each strategy. Results are this:
Standard wins 12,1% of the games.
No-Lynch wins 29,6% of the games.
This is some quite strong evidence I think that we are better off no-lynching until 4 Cops are outed.
Vote: No Lynch
That's tempting except for one thing - human judgement certainly ups these odds. Because if I'm reading your numbers correctly, town only wins 12% of the time? That would make this setup classified as "unbalanced" and changed. Since I assume this setup is as close to 50/50 as can be considered reasonable, judgement in PR direction (ie not "random") must help a lot.
Which makes me wonder, if the "Standard" % can be raised so much, what happens to the No Lynch %?
Really though, I'm just disheartened overall right now because REDACTED.
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Well, the random lynching and random targeting certainly leads to town doing worse than with human judgment. I think both percentages are significantly raised by this. The question is: which profits more from it? "Standard" profits mostly from lynches being directed by humans. But that is two-fold, as there is also scum trying to get a mislynch, so it's unclear how big this benefit actually is. The targeting of the town PRs might be the more significant factor. But since PRs live longer with the "No-Lynch" strategy, it might even be that this plan is stronger positively influenced.
Note also that both strategies do not include Cops claiming with a town result, as that is hard to implement. After all, there's no reason for scum not to fake-claim something here, and the program can't deal with fake claims. I think in the "No-Lynch" strategy, Cops shouldn't claim a town result, because it narrows down the kill pool for scum. In the "Standard" strategy however, they probably want to claim. So that would mean that there's a possible positive impact on the "Standard" strategy that I have not taken into account. But since the numbers are that far apart ("No-Lynch" being more than two times as effective as "Standard"), I do not think it swings the outcome in favor of "Standard".
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As Voltaire said, if your simulation says that town has a 12% chance of winning normally, I think there's something wrong with your simulation. Which isn't particularly surprising, since this is a social deduction game, ie not the most easy thing to simulate mathematically.
The no lynch plan would need to be incredibly good for me to go along with it, just because I like playing the game more than, you know, not playing it.
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Has the forum been down or was today just the most inactive
day ever?
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Given that currently no one stands out to me as likely to be scum, I think I would pretty much be taking a shot in the dark if I voted for someone. Given faust's statistics (which I really hope I can trust), it is better to not lynch than to lynch randomly, so
Vote: No Lynch
I honestly have no idea whether that's the right call, my understanding is that no lynch is uncommon even on the first day, but it makes sense that it would be a lot better in this set-up given that everyone has a PR.
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Even if it ends up being no better than random in terms of probability to hit scum, it's the interactions that matter. That's the problem with no lynch, it makes day 1 basically useless. Like, no lynch is pretty close to being as bad as a day 1 mislynch, and it's obviously infinitely worse than a day 1 correct lynch.
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Even if it ends up being no better than random in terms of probability to hit scum, it's the interactions that matter. That's the problem with no lynch, it makes day 1 basically useless. Like, no lynch is pretty close to being as bad as a day 1 mislynch, and it's obviously infinitely worse than a day 1 correct lynch.
That isn't the way to think of it. Although i see why you are...
The way to think of it is to think of day1 just never occurring (from a stats point of view) Because then day2 starts over as a new day1, but with one less player. Basically what it turns into is that we start the game over with 12 players, but potentially have a % (someone else can do the math), but probably around 1/12 (so not that high) of someone being /outed as scum and a approx 1/12 chance that the night kill will be prevented...
now that might not be worth the trade off... but to say we will be lacking the interactions isn't exactly true because the next day just becomes the new day1 and the next day (day3) becomes the next day2...
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I see, that's an interesting way of framing it.
I just thought of an argument in favor of no lynch by the way : people who rolled night 5 have a better chance of using their power. I don't know how good an argument it is, and I still think I'm against it, but it's worth considering I guess.
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I see, that's an interesting way of framing it.
I just thought of an argument in favor of no lynch by the way : people who rolled night 5 have a better chance of using their power. I don't know how good an argument it is, and I still think I'm against it, but it's worth considering I guess.
Yeah, I think this is the main reason why in faust's calcs no lynch comes out as better. Well, not specifically night 5, but people with later nights in general all have slightly better chance to live until their night to use their power.
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Pretty sure I don't care whether it was right or wrong...
You don't care if it's right or wrong? Wouldn't that mean you don't care if it's actually useful in finding scum?
No, I mean that those sort of statements generally aren't useful to find scum to begin with, so I don't really care if it is true or not.
As an example, TA's statement perhaps could be true generally (I kinda doubt if it is, even if he has provided a few cherry picked examples), but because I am town I know it is not true in this instance... my statement is the same... I don't know if it true or not and I don't care because it is so easy to make such a statement that it holds very little water to me.
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I engaged the claim theory talk early and gained the most votes of anyone in the game for decrying the theory that has since been universally abandoned and supporting the theory that has been universally accepted.
I pointed out to the main proponent and progenitor of the motion to no-lynch that no-lynch is generally a scum suggestion and the game has devolved into a wait for D1 to end so we can see who dies first tonight.
Meanwhile I stopped posting, because I was legitimately busy, and suddenly no one is interested in painting me scum for engaging the topics at hand.
I suspect scum is controlling this day quite well.
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I engaged the claim theory talk early and gained the most votes of anyone in the game for decrying the theory that has since been universally abandoned and supporting the theory that has been universally accepted.
I think this is misleading, and it comes across as a grab for Towncred. I didn't vote for you, but I definitely could have, and it certainly would not have been for rejecting or supporting theories. I highly doubt that is why anyone has voted for you.
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I pointed out to the main proponent and progenitor of the motion to no-lynch that no-lynch is generally a scum suggestion and the game has devolved into a wait for D1 to end so we can see who dies first tonight.
I agree with this though. I do not see the merits of no-lynching.
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Yeah, what Jimmmmm said. As far as I can tell PPS, the votes on you weren't because you were against claiming, but because of the way you were against claiming. And now you're painting yourself as a victim, which I find scummy as well.
And what is that last sentence supposed to mean ? Just a general statement (in which case it's useless) or an accusation at the people who've been active recently ?
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I pointed out to the main proponent and progenitor of the motion to no-lynch that no-lynch is generally a scum suggestion and the game has devolved into a wait for D1 to end so we can see who dies first tonight.
This this is all I could find that you said about no lynch:
Actually, I originally suggested it. You liked it and actually argued for it. It was a scum trap that just barely didn't work. The whole plan was to get someone to look scummy as hell for arguing for no-lynch. If they succeeded even better.
I don't think anything in this post says "no lynch is generally scum suggestion". It refers to RMM12. This is not RMM12, and we work under different premises. What I get from the post is more "people arguing for no lynch can easily be painted as scummy". And look at what you're doing.
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I engaged the claim theory talk early and gained the most votes of anyone in the game for decrying the theory that has since been universally abandoned and supporting the theory that has been universally accepted.
I think this is misleading, and it comes across as a grab for Towncred. I didn't vote for you, but I definitely could have, and it certainly would not have been for rejecting or supporting theories. I highly doubt that is why anyone has voted for you.
The fact that you didn't vote for me doesn't negate the fact that I picked up the most votes on a single point that has become the accepted game state. That's the point I made, why you are conflating that with the fact that you're not one of the voters is beyond me.
I don't know why you doubt the reason so highly since the only explanation offered was that I wasn't making any sense despite the result that everyone has capitulated and decided that early mass-claims are not re way to go. If it was soooo nonsensical then why is everyone doing it?
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PPS, my vote on you had nothing to do with your view on theory. I agreed with you. It had to do with your interaction with Faust, who I found to be towny.
I don't know why you are dismissing the votes on you in this way, especially since I know that I was very explicit when I voted you, and that I agreed with you all around.
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Can someone tell me of a game where PPS was town? This screams scum PPS to me but that's all I've ever seen.
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Grimm Brothers.
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Vote: Robz until he gets in here and says something...
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I know old ones, like MVI and then there's one (MXII or something) where he claimed VT on day 1 for no reason and got mislynched as a result.
Point is : crazy PPS is usually town (he was behaving a bit weird on day 1 of MVI I think). Maybe there's a more recent example of that, but that's the only reason I'm not voting for him right now.
PPE : Right, Grimmm. I don't think he was particularly crazy in that, so my argument might be obsolete.
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PPS seems realllllllllllllly normal in Grimm, not nearly as brash and in-your-face as in RMM12 and RMM9.
The only reason I'm now nervous about my vote is because he's an active poster/player, and that's not who I lynch D1.
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Yeah, what Jimmmmm said. As far as I can tell PPS, the votes on you weren't because you were against claiming, but because of the way you were against claiming. And now you're painting yourself as a victim, which I find scummy as well.
And what is that last sentence supposed to mean ? Just a general statement (in which case it's useless) or an accusation at the people who've been active recently ?
If a person is the scum target for the day and they point that out are they painting themselves as a victim or calling attention to how perception is being controlled? Let's run some votes up on you just because I say so and see if you think you're a victim or there's some shenanigans that need to be called out.
That last sentence suggests the low level of activity might be because a small subset of the players decries anyone who dares post while we wait out the clock on D1. I get to have my suspicions and you can call them useless and you can perceive it to be an accusation. My observation of that is scumhunting.
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You're saying you're the scum target for the day, and I don't know why you think that. You got three votes on you. Three !
As for the rest, it's only scumhunting if you're clear about who you think is scum. As it is, all you're doing is casting vague accusations at large groups of people. Not only is this not scumhunting by any stretch of the imagination, it's straight up anti-town.
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Right, I should just follow along and do whatever you or someone else tells me to or else I am anti-town. That's the pattern I'm seeing.
I'm not saying 3 votes is some heavy weight but I am pointing out that I'm the only person who hasn't bent to the pressure put on him which is why is the sole reason I am the person with the most votes regardless of the count.
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I only suspect one of the standing votes on me to be scum. It's not the vote but the more subtle suggestions that I must be scum that give it away.
You accuse me of not scumhunting because I'm not directly stating my reads at the moment.
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Well yes, keeping your reads to yourself is not scumhunting. It's a way of playing that can work, but it's not scumhunting. It's also a luxury that is generally reserved to ICs, because it's extremely easy for scum to hide in that kind of playstyle.
Right, I should just follow along and do whatever you or someone else tells me to or else I am anti-town. That's the pattern I'm seeing.
More artificial victimization. Regardless of your alignement, this is just annoying.
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Well yes, keeping your reads to yourself is not scumhunting. It's a way of playing that can work, but it's not scumhunting. It's also a luxury that is generally reserved to ICs, because it's extremely easy for scum to hide in that kind of playstyle.
Fair enough. I was waiting on a little more show and tell from my suspect. But there is a convincing case already there. I have to pick up and go home for the evening but I'll outline the case later tonight.
Hunting often involves putting some bait out and waiting to see what shows up. So yes, luring scum out to show themselves without immediately divulging that you have a suspect is in fact, hunting. It is not wholly pro-town but I think we should all afford some of this luxury in this game as we do have a responsibility to ascertain the best night targets, especially when a significant portion of the voters are electing to not try to hit scum on a lynch.
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Vote: chairs. His "(if they exist)" sort of rubbed me the wrong way. Not RVS, but not super serious either.
... Why ?
By the way, I understand I'm coming in a bit late to the theory talk, but I do think the "rolling 1 to 5" plan is good, and it only works if everyone agrees to it. As I explained above, I don't think TA's objection is a problem at all, and I don't see much else that would be wrong with it.
I have actually come to dislike this plan, but for a reason I don't think anyone has stated yet.
It is thus: that a doctor pretending to have a town result may actually make a mafia appear to be town for that day. Or the inverse, the fear of this will cause people to suspect someone who a cop says is town for fear that the claiming player is a doc and is wrong... all of this speculation obviously goes away once said player dies... but until that point we are left w/o concrete information.
To be clear here is an example:
Night1: Doc ashersky roles himself a 3. So day3 comes around and he says, "I investigated Insomniac last night." He doesn't know it, but Insomniac is mafia and now everyone will think that there is a pretty good chance that Insomniac is in fact town, at least until ashersky dies, which may or may not happen soon...
Or the inverse:
Night1: jotheonah is a day2 cop. So day2 comes around and he says, "I investigated CaptainFrisk last night." He knows it, but CaptainFrisk is in fact town, but because this isn't verifiable because town doesn't know that jotheonah is actually a cop and there isn't a way to distinguish him from a doc claiming to be a cop. The only way to verify it is to have jotheonah die, which may or may not happen soon...
see the problem?
I am thinking that cops should just immediately claim results when they get them. Docs just shouldn't say anything.
I'd be in favor of this claiming system, or of the no-lynch except on guilty cop result, but none of the other claiming systems we've discussed look like they're more beneficial to Town than they are to Mafia.
I'm intrigued by the no-lynch-is-best potential, because it's a really interesting counterbalance to a different Mafia variation (Assassin in the palace) where an interaction-less game is also the statistically beneficial playstyle.
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Okay I lied and have just been like insanely busy. The good news: I will be on a train for extended periods of time tomorrow... if it has WIFI, we are in good shape for me to catch up.
If it doesn't... shudder...
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I can't quite remember, but I think I mentioned that No Lynch is something I'm not a fan of. Makes it harder for Docs/Cops to choose someone, and like yuma said it restarts D1 in a sense.
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I engaged the claim theory talk early and gained the most votes of anyone in the game for decrying the theory that has since been universally abandoned and supporting the theory that has been universally accepted.
I think this is misleading, and it comes across as a grab for Towncred. I didn't vote for you, but I definitely could have, and it certainly would not have been for rejecting or supporting theories. I highly doubt that is why anyone has voted for you.
The fact that you didn't vote for me doesn't negate the fact that I picked up the most votes on a single point that has become the accepted game state. That's the point I made, why you are conflating that with the fact that you're not one of the voters is beyond me.
I don't know why you doubt the reason so highly since the only explanation offered was that I wasn't making any sense despite the result that everyone has capitulated and decided that early mass-claims are not re way to go. If it was soooo nonsensical then why is everyone doing it?
Uh, no. The idea that you were trying to put across makes sense. You weren't making any sense.
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I can't quite remember, but I think I mentioned that No Lynch is something I'm not a fan of. Makes it harder for Docs/Cops to choose someone, and like yuma said it restarts D1 in a sense.
Sure. There are arguments both for and against in this regard, honestly - I'm not "sold" on the No Lynch Plan by any means, but it -is- a mechanism which delays the game for Town, allowing for potentially more Cop results. Whether or not this turns out in our favor (from getting guilty results) or not (more NKs versus Town-directed kills)? That's the million dollar question.
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Fair enough. I was waiting on a little more show and tell from my suspect. But there is a convincing case already there. I have to pick up and go home for the evening but I'll outline the case later tonight.
Hunting often involves putting some bait out and waiting to see what shows up. So yes, luring scum out to show themselves without immediately divulging that you have a suspect is in fact, hunting. It is not wholly pro-town but I think we should all afford some of this luxury in this game as we do have a responsibility to ascertain the best night targets, especially when a significant portion of the voters are electing to not try to hit scum on a lynch.
For me, PPS is out of my lynch pool because of the above in bold. It is something that scum could fake, I admit, but I think this line of thought comes much more naturally to town and is harder to come by as mafia... that is PPS if town, has a night ability and is already starting to think about it.... whereas I think mafia wouldn't be thinking about who they would pretend to investigate until tonight...
I say PPS is town and I won't likely be voting for him. I ask all voting for him to consider this quote and weigh it with their current reasons for voting...
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Fair enough. I was waiting on a little more show and tell from my suspect. But there is a convincing case already there. I have to pick up and go home for the evening but I'll outline the case later tonight.
Hunting often involves putting some bait out and waiting to see what shows up. So yes, luring scum out to show themselves without immediately divulging that you have a suspect is in fact, hunting. It is not wholly pro-town but I think we should all afford some of this luxury in this game as we do have a responsibility to ascertain the best night targets, especially when a significant portion of the voters are electing to not try to hit scum on a lynch.
For me, PPS is out of my lynch pool because of the above in bold. It is something that scum could fake, I admit, but I think this line of thought comes much more naturally to town and is harder to come by as mafia... that is PPS if town, has a night ability and is already starting to think about it.... whereas I think mafia wouldn't be thinking about who they would pretend to investigate until tonight...
I say PPS is town and I won't likely be voting for him. I ask all voting for him to consider this quote and weigh it with their current reasons for voting...
I think Mafia always think about their fakeclaims. They would have discussed it in the pregame and would know or at least have a good idea what they are claiming if we claim Today.
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Fair enough. I was waiting on a little more show and tell from my suspect. But there is a convincing case already there. I have to pick up and go home for the evening but I'll outline the case later tonight.
Hunting often involves putting some bait out and waiting to see what shows up. So yes, luring scum out to show themselves without immediately divulging that you have a suspect is in fact, hunting. It is not wholly pro-town but I think we should all afford some of this luxury in this game as we do have a responsibility to ascertain the best night targets, especially when a significant portion of the voters are electing to not try to hit scum on a lynch.
For me, PPS is out of my lynch pool because of the above in bold. It is something that scum could fake, I admit, but I think this line of thought comes much more naturally to town and is harder to come by as mafia... that is PPS if town, has a night ability and is already starting to think about it.... whereas I think mafia wouldn't be thinking about who they would pretend to investigate until tonight...
I say PPS is town and I won't likely be voting for him. I ask all voting for him to consider this quote and weigh it with their current reasons for voting...
I think Mafia always think about their fakeclaims. They would have discussed it in the pregame and would know or at least have a good idea what they are claiming if we claim Today.
That isn't what I mean... what I mean is PPS is actively thinking about who he is going to target with his power tonight or whatever night he is as a Doc or Cop, whereas I think mafia only starts to think about how to use a PR once night as begun--at least that is generally how I approach play as mafia.... trying to figure out who to target during the day as mafia distracts from the goal of trying to manipulate town...
What I said in regard to fakeclaiming was that I guess there is a chance PPS realized that if he put in something about "ascertaining the best town targets" to make it look like he was figuring out who to target via imposing "ascertain the best fake claim to target" ontop of it, I guess it is possible... but I think PPS being town is more likely.
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Holy shit.
I went to assemble my case on TwistedArcher and I am now convinced he must be town whereas before I was certain he was actively and subtly painting me bad.
I'm starting to see where my actions were looking schizophrenic.
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I mean I was like 30 minutes into with a page full of quotes when the impossibility of it became clear.
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I mean I was like 30 minutes into with a page full of quotes when the impossibility of it became clear.
would you mind posting it anyways and what pinpointed your change of heart?
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I can't quite remember, but I think I mentioned that No Lynch is something I'm not a fan of. Makes it harder for Docs/Cops to choose someone, and like yuma said it restarts D1 in a sense.
Not sure I understand this correctly. You are saying that no-lynch makes it harder for PRs to choose, but that's not a good reason to lynch someone. Cops want to target scum, Docs want to target the scum target. Both only gets easier if we mislynch, not if we lynch scum. And a mislynch means we lose one of our PRs. So the remaining PRs might have a slightly better chance to target the right person, but we have one PR less that can target, which balances that out.
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I find it interesting that pps never replied to this:
I pointed out to the main proponent and progenitor of the motion to no-lynch that no-lynch is generally a scum suggestion and the game has devolved into a wait for D1 to end so we can see who dies first tonight.
This this is all I could find that you said about no lynch:
Actually, I originally suggested it. You liked it and actually argued for it. It was a scum trap that just barely didn't work. The whole plan was to get someone to look scummy as hell for arguing for no-lynch. If they succeeded even better.
I don't think anything in this post says "no lynch is generally scum suggestion". It refers to RMM12. This is not RMM12, and we work under different premises. What I get from the post is more "people arguing for no lynch can easily be painted as scummy". And look at what you're doing.
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Not sure I understand this correctly. You are saying that no-lynch makes it harder for PRs to choose, but that's not a good reason to lynch someone. Cops want to target scum, Docs want to target the scum target. Both only gets easier if we mislynch, not if we lynch scum. And a mislynch means we lose one of our PRs. So the remaining PRs might have a slightly better chance to target the right person, but we have one PR less that can target, which balances that out.
Bolded for emphasis.
What ? Targeting scum is easier for Cops if we lynch correctly than if we mislynch because they can look at interactions. I guess it's harder in the sense that there are less scum to target, but we have a lot more info that way.
And it ALSO gets easier for Docs to protect because the people pushing the hardest for the correct lynch will be the obvious targets for scum to NK.
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Not sure I understand this correctly. You are saying that no-lynch makes it harder for PRs to choose, but that's not a good reason to lynch someone. Cops want to target scum, Docs want to target the scum target. Both only gets easier if we mislynch, not if we lynch scum. And a mislynch means we lose one of our PRs. So the remaining PRs might have a slightly better chance to target the right person, but we have one PR less that can target, which balances that out.
Bolded for emphasis.
What ? Targeting scum is easier for Cops if we lynch correctly than if we mislynch because they can look at interactions. I guess it's harder in the sense that there are less scum to target, but we have a lot more info that way.
And it ALSO gets easier for Docs to protect because the people pushing the hardest for the correct lynch will be the obvious targets for scum to NK.
It is harder for both in the sense that the scum/town ratio decreases. Now of course there will be interactions and stuff, but if we have a good scum team, they can easily fake stuff and bus and so on.
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I mean I was like 30 minutes into with a page full of quotes when the impossibility of it became clear.
would you mind posting it anyways and what pinpointed your change of heart?
I must be losing my mind. Last night in bed I felt that I saw my paranoid delusions for what they were. Now, as I try to relate how I came to my senses I'm seeing the bogey man once again.
There is the premise operating here that scum will select a couple of targets to maybe work their meta for a D1 mislynch. The Jimmmmm/faust interaction on the mass-claim that got my first vote felt like the bad cop setup and then TA came in and played good cop saying massclaims are indeed bad but faust is town anyway.
His next dozen or so posts are theory which I happen to agree with (and is where I got into thinking I must be wrong about him last night). Eevee suggests that his level of participation could be scummy a notion I can agree with becaue as scum I try to control perceptions, myself. I threw a joke in there he supposedly didn't follow but very shortly later I get a vote from TA for it and immediately followed by a Voltaire vote that seemed a OMGUR(rock) for qualifying Voltaire as town which seemed very much like a control of perception. That is, that TA was garnering sheep votes for telling people they were towny .
TA then votes yuma for looking at my wagon instead of joining it which coincides with the premise that scum has a D1 target to work and attempts to circumvent must be punished. Might as well use the punishment as a small reward for the target by using the yuma vote to say I now look townier. I read this as maybe I can be coaxed into sheeping TA too, you know, to avoid the obvious influence he just wielded on me. Oh, look the tide turns towards yuma first with Jimmmm suddenly suggesting yuma could be scum and then Teproc following that with a vote.
Eevee is game to analyze this and it isn't going in the sheep direction TA needs it to so he tells Eevee that Eevee isn't playing from his gut like he usually does. Having played scum vs Eevee I can tell you Eevee gut reads me wrong everytime despite some decent evidence to the contrary. Here is the appeal to the gut to shut down the intellectual recognition.
yuma resumes playing The Game in what appears to be rather towny light and Teproc parrots the formerly issued by TA directive that looking at the PPS wagon is bad play. Nevermind that's where TA's vote sits.
TA mostly drops out at this point. The plan is in motion. Teproc is carrying the torch for him. If we're not going to lynch the target we're going to get no-lynch.
Disclaimer: Yes, it's all conspiracy theory and comes from what can easily be construed as a victim mentality. However, I think the lens itself isn't completely insane, I feel there is a tangible thread in there. I'm not claiming any scum teams nor am I claiming certainty of TA's alignment.
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This is a little unclear to me; pingpongsam, how are your reads at this point?
One thing I just realized is that scum might not try to be a leading voice in this game. Leading voices are generally the ones that tend to be investigated, right? So in the end, the way pingpongsam throws himself into the center of debate here comes across as something scum would want to avoid. I still find the way he plays irritating, but I guess he's more likely town.
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chairs is so out of this game that he thinks he's not in it. Let's wake him up.
vote: chairs
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I find it interesting that pps never replied to this:
I pointed out to the main proponent and progenitor of the motion to no-lynch that no-lynch is generally a scum suggestion and the game has devolved into a wait for D1 to end so we can see who dies first tonight.
This this is all I could find that you said about no lynch:
Actually, I originally suggested it. You liked it and actually argued for it. It was a scum trap that just barely didn't work. The whole plan was to get someone to look scummy as hell for arguing for no-lynch. If they succeeded even better.
I don't think anything in this post says "no lynch is generally scum suggestion". It refers to RMM12. This is not RMM12, and we work under different premises. What I get from the post is more "people arguing for no lynch can easily be painted as scummy". And look at what you're doing.
I didn't know it needed a response. You were right. Is that what you wanted to hear? I was, without any intended ambiguity, stating that my experience suggests that promoting no-lynch is a great scum tool. I related my experience to RMM12 because yuma directly referenced RMM12. My larger point being that I had very successfully, as scum, convinced a Townie to actually argue the no-lynch idea I promoted so strongly he had lost sight of where it originated. Ultimately, that Townie was cast in a suspicious light for the remainder of the game.
Arguing for no-lynch is, IMO, a scum thing to do. It's very easy to get behind. Once it has mass appeal as it does now then scum can jump out from behind it and use this kind of reverse psychology.
I against no-lynch but I am relatively comfortable with how we got there because it gives me a better sense of where to be targeting my night action.
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I against no-lynch but I am relatively comfortable with how we got there because it gives me a better sense of where to be targeting my night action.
Policy vote: pingpongsam.
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Huh ?
What's worth policy voting here ? Everyone has a night action you know.
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I dont understand this fight at all. Townread on both though, bigger on PPS.
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This is a little unclear to me; pingpongsam, how are your reads at this point?
One thing I just realized is that scum might not try to be a leading voice in this game. Leading voices are generally the ones that tend to be investigated, right? So in the end, the way pingpongsam throws himself into the center of debate here comes across as something scum would want to avoid. I still find the way he plays irritating, but I guess he's more likely town.
I'm reading you specifically to be an abrasive and inquisitive townie. I keep waffling on TA, if I put the TA is scum lens on it comes out pretty scummy. I am finding Jimmmmm to be inscrutable and so I don't think he is a willing participant in a TA conspiracy. I would say that if TA is scum then it is likely that so is Teproc because that does fit the theory. If TA comes out clean then I have a hard time seeing Teproc as scum. I think yuma is Town. I think Voltaire is town. I am more null but leaning town on Eevee and AHoppy. scott_pilgrim I am largely null on. He looks like Town to me but I have no meta on that guy and there is an almost pretentious gullibility I am picking up. Robz and chairs are absent so I don't have reads. chairs has at least posted and has been viewed suspiciously but I haven't really agreed with any of it enough to change my vote off of Robz who terrifies me if he is scum and I really want around as Town yet he's not playing the game to date.
If scum isn't actively controlling this day then they are lackadaisically waiting for it to end.
I think that was everybody, if not then I missed
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I against no-lynch but I am relatively comfortable with how we got there because it gives me a better sense of where to be targeting my night action.
Policy vote: pingpongsam.
Yo, you're policy voting the guy who is voting another player which is a testament to the fact that he is actively against no-lynch?
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*So
not "Yo", hehe
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Can we get the OP updated with the current roster of players?
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Vote Count 1.3
Robz888 (2): pingpongsam, AHoppy
pingpongsam (2): Voltaire, faust
faust (1): yuma
Twistedarcher (1): Eevee
yuma (1): Twistedarcher
chairs (2): Archetype, Teproc
Archetype (1): Jimmmmm
No Lynch (1): scott_pilgrim
Not Voting (2): Robz888, chairs
With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.
Day 1 ends January 23rd, 12:00 AM.
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Pretty sure faust is voting PPS, not Robz.
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Pps, do you believe in conspiracy theories generally? Cause that's a pretty crazy one.
Crux of the case is that I'm scum trying to set up mislynches by pointing out scummy things. Well yeah, I am pointing out scummy things, because I want to find out who scum is, and scum do scummy things! (But unfortunately so do town, meh)
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By the way, you called about four partners for me there. Faust/jimmmm for the good cop setup, eevee for me coaching him, and teproc. Which ones are really my partners?
I also want to reiterate again. You said you were giving me a town read initially for agreeing with my theory. Just because you agree with someone on their theory does not mean they are town!!!!
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I think pps doesn't believe in the conspiracy theory, it's something he wrote and realized wasn't holding up halfway through, right ?
It's useful because his attitude does make a little more sense now I guess.
I still don't get faust's "policy vote" on pps.
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Pps, I feel that you are viewing the game through a lens of only what is happening to you, but you gotta keep in mind that there's 12 other people out there. If you're town, viewing the game through the lens of "whoever wants to mislynch ME must be the scum" is not good. Why do you feel that scum would want to mislynch you over any other particular town member?
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I think he changed his mind back again, teproc.
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Well, if he has, I'll point out something that I think is very wrong with this theory : I do not believe for a second that scum picks targets for day 1. Has a scum team ever done this ? My only scum game so far had daychat, so I guess it's not representative, but I can't fathom why you would do this as a scumteam on day 1. Sure, some people are always going to be "easy" mislynches (Morgrim, Archetype, mail-mi, faust recently), but mostly scum is looking to get a feel for the game. Picking targets is something they can do later in the game, but not day 1.
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I'm reading you specifically to be an abrasive and inquisitive townie. I keep waffling on TA, if I put the TA is scum lens on it comes out pretty scummy. I am finding Jimmmmm to be inscrutable and so I don't think he is a willing participant in a TA conspiracy. I would say that if TA is scum then it is likely that so is Teproc because that does fit the theory. If TA comes out clean then I have a hard time seeing Teproc as scum. I think yuma is Town. I think Voltaire is town. I am more null but leaning town on Eevee and AHoppy. scott_pilgrim I am largely null on. He looks like Town to me but I have no meta on that guy and there is an almost pretentious gullibility I am picking up. Robz and chairs are absent so I don't have reads. chairs has at least posted and has been viewed suspiciously but I haven't really agreed with any of it enough to change my vote off of Robz who terrifies me if he is scum and I really want around as Town yet he's not playing the game to date.
The thing that sticks out most to me here is that you have quite a lot of town reads for early d1.
About the bolded part -- once more -- just because you agree with someone's views does not make them town!!! This viewpoint is so apt to being manipulated by scum that it's worth repeating over and over and over.
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Well, if he has, I'll point out something that I think is very wrong with this theory : I do not believe for a second that scum picks targets for day 1. Has a scum team ever done this ? My only scum game so far had daychat, so I guess it's not representative, but I can't fathom why you would do this as a scumteam on day 1. Sure, some people are always going to be "easy" mislynches (Morgrim, Archetype, mail-mi, faust recently), but mostly scum is looking to get a feel for the game. Picking targets is something they can do later in the game, but not day 1.
I agree that they won't do this pre-game, but it's certainly feasible to pick a target and then push it for most of the day. Is it just me though or is pps really overestimating the amount of suspicion he had?
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That's not what he's saying in the bolded part though. He's saying he hasn't agreed with the people who find chairs scummy enough to move his vote there. I think that's what he means ? But I agree with your point in general
PPE : He has.
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I think Yuma reacted in a mostly towny way to my vote. And I really don't want to lynch Yuma d1 unless I'm positive he's scum, which I am not here.
Still think that eevee isn't playing like himself -- I associate town d1 eevee with being unsure and not really contributing much until he can get his reads together a bit. Which I didn't see here. vote: eevee
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Oops, you are right, I misread that -- my bad.
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Something something fakevote: teproc omgus something something.
There's a difference between "I have nothing to say" and "I am not following this game". I'm currently in the former camp. Is that scummy? Yeah, I guess. It's unfortunately something I'm almost always stuck in on D1 - as I've found things that interest me (PPS's conspiracy theories don't, and have been the focus lately) I've commented.
FWIW I think PPS is probably Town because I don't think he's this inept as scum.
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Yeah, bigger town read on faust for the bizarre policy vote. Still trying to sort this out.
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PPS, do you think you're behaving any differently here than you normally do as town? If so, why?
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Okay, this response is kind of blanket I'm not going to quote the exact questions I am referring to.
I do think scum do pick Day 1 targets. As scum I generally like to review the list of players and identify who presents the biggest threat or who is the easiest to get a mislynch. In RMM12 we identified sudgy as the mislynch candidate for D1. When things didn't work out on that front we knifed him that night for the WIFOM which overall was a great plan. In some way earlier regular game where I was partnered with YoungNick against manda and sharkbait and Eevee and some old-timer like Robz or Galz or Grujah I don't remember we specifically set out to get the long timer dead ASAP. I am easy target because I tend to be very forward and I tend to be fairly committed to my reads. Also, statistically speaking, I am scum way more often than not so over time I am easy to distrust.
I think conspiracy theories are just that. There is usually a grain of truth in all of them. My gut read told me to doctor Galzria inmy first game ever which earned me MVP, my gut read told me to hammer ashersky in the Grimm game. There was no real supporting evidence in either case. I was Town working on a hunch and an early one at that. I think playing on logical deduction is s much firmer path to take but this is D1 and there is nothing but perception to work with here.
It was good for me to go ahead and puke out what I was seeing. I agree, and said as much earlier, that viewing it all from what is happening to me is a weak position to take primarily because it is impossible to truly get anyone to see what I perceive.
I understand that it is outlandish and even errant and poor play to call scum teams. I am not calling scum teams and I am not asserting that if TA were scum he somehow has to have 4 partners. What I am saying is that IF TA is scum then a partner is in the mix because there appears to be enough cooperation and/or sheeping to support the idea. I have so many Town reads because when I read each player outside the TA partner lens they come off as Town which I think is a more logical way to read someone if my suspicion on TA is wrong. I mean, I did just say calling pairs is bad, right? When I put on the TA must be Town lens everyone around him appears even Townier.
Thus I maintain that either scum is well in control of this game or they aren't really playing this day. You will note where my vote currently stands. I hope this shows that while I have some wild-eyed and breathless views on what may be happening I'm not letting them dictate where I ultimately place my vote because I do recognize the fallibility of it all.
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Town read on chairs.
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unvote
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Town read on chairs.
This again ? Is there a reason you might want to share with us ?
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Town read on chairs.
This again ? Is there a reason you might want to share with us ?
He forgot about the game.
I had this read on chairs before, and someone tried to tell me he could be scum, but he turned out to be town. I've yet to see scum pull that gambit.
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Someone ? That's a good point though, scum is less likely to outright forget they're in a game. unvote
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Do you think I'm scum, pps?
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PPS, do you think you're behaving any differently here than you normally do as town? If so, why?
That's a hard question because I just play the game and I don't have any set strategy to stick to so I don't know if I ever really do the same thing twice. It seems that ss town I am generally looked upon as being near morgim levels of crazy. The only reason I survived my 1st game was because scum was reluctant to kill the first time newb player and did not consider they had let the doctor live long enough to make some logical deductions. My 2nd game as Town I acted too crazy to even make it to the first night. In Grimm I faired way better but scum was on the run from the get go and if you will note in that game I was the last to claim and it drew a quick L-1 when it became obvious. Even then my claim was barely enough to save me. I think that game and my first showed that given a Town PR I am more interested in how to best leverage the role action than trying to work the day on the day's terms.
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Someone ? That's a good point though, scum is less likely to outright forget they're in a game. unvote
I'm curious who it was, and if they were scum or not. I don't remember the game, honestly, I'll try to figure out which it was.
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Do you think I'm scum, pps?
I don't know. I think you are my favorite target for discovering your alignment because if I could know you were town I would be able to set said my suspicions and discover a better focus. If I thought you were for sure scum I'd be voting you right now.
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I also lean town for a different reason -- I don't think scum comes out and "hey guys, I don't really have much to say, I'll be here acti-lurking". Scum tries to find something to say.
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Do you think I'm scum, pps?
I don't know. I think you are my favorite target for discovering your alignment because if I could know you were town I would be able to set said my suspicions and discover a better focus. If I thought you were for sure scum I'd be voting you right now.
Funnily, I am having the same thoughts about you! I read your actions as consistently scummy, but I'm not sure if that makes you scum, if that makes any sense.
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As for no-lynch, I see the merits of it. I think if there was ever a game to do it, it would be now.
Selfishly, though...I want to play mafia, and that involves lynching people.
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Selfishly, though...I want to play mafia, and that involves lynching people.
Same. Toy Story sucked.
I'll no-lynch on later days when it makes sense as a one- or two-off, but not consistently.
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I should run an Assassin in the Palace game sometime just to see how you guys deal with it 8)
And yeah, this setup is probably one of the most beneficial to no-lynch your way through as a rule, but pitchforks are fun!
vote: twistedarcher for being selfish.
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Found it. It was mcmc in KCGM, and mcmc was scum.
Oh lord, I forgot about this game.
Scum does not forget about games. Until I see someone pull this gambit (and yes, it would be easy to pull), huge town read on chairs.
I was scum, I missed an entire day and a half of a blitz game, I completely forgot it.
Blitz though.
Anything to say about the recent votes on you?
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Can verify that mcmc missed a blitz game, I was his partner and left out to dry.
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Is it time for me to do D1 POE and get misunderstood? It's time for me to do D1 POE and get misunderstood.
sudgy, can you please update the OP with the current player list? nkirbit is still listed.
Post count (no pre-game):
50 Twistedarcher
44 Jimmmmm
42 yuma - Pass and/or don't lynch yuma D1.
36 Voltaire - me!
32 pingpongsam
30 faust - a big town read for me
28 Teproc
13 Archetype
11 AHoppy
8 chairs - town read due to forgetting about the game
7 Eevee
7 scott_pilgrim - don't lynch new players D1 unless they claim scum
3 Robz888 - doesn't play D1 as town
There's more I could do here, and almost certainly will later, but man this game just being theory (mostly) so far sucks.
I want to vote: AHoppy.
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And by that I mean, I am very hesitant to eliminate the top posters like I usually do since scum probably posted about theory a lot.
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Town read on chairs.
This again ? Is there a reason you might want to share with us ?
He forgot about the game.
I had this read on chairs before, and someone tried to tell me he could be scum, but he turned out to be town. I've yet to see scum pull that gambit.
I quite agree with this sentiment
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Selfishly, though...I want to play mafia, and that involves lynching people.
Same. Toy Story sucked.
I'll no-lynch on later days when it makes sense as a one- or two-off, but not consistently.
Well toy story was lame because we were leaving everything to mafia.... town didn't get to do anything during the night. That is not the case here. That is why the argument is compelling (and is often compelling in RMM games) here... people have stuff to do during the night. So I wouldn't compare this game to Toy Story.
At this point I would be willing to vote: no lynch.
If we aren't going to do that, I think my lynch candidates are 1. Robz--his meta is that he doesn't care when he is town, but he exploits that far too often and I wonder if he is here... 2. teproc--probably my biggest scum read, I'll expand later when I have a chance 3. faust--don't see the townread from voltaire... 4.
Hmmm maybe those three are the main ones. Others I could, but I prefer one of those three, but prefer no lynch to everything right now...
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I'll Vote: Eevee for being a low poster. Townread on PPS still.
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I think Yuma reacted in a mostly towny way to my vote. And I really don't want to lynch Yuma d1 unless I'm positive he's scum, which I am not here.
Still think that eevee isn't playing like himself -- I associate town d1 eevee with being unsure and not really contributing much until he can get his reads together a bit. Which I didn't see here. vote: eevee
Haha, it feels extremely weird to argue this point, but I haven't really contributed very much today. I feel a lot like myself!
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2. teproc--probably my biggest scum read, I'll expand later when I have a chance
Excited to hear it, although I'm surprisd to be "2" if I'm really your biggest scum read.
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Weirdly enough, I agree almost entirely with Voltaire's list, and the majority of his reads, it seems. Go Voltaire!
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I wouldn't eliminate yuma, but I would eliminate PPS (and myself). So mostly agree as well!
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2. teproc--probably my biggest scum read, I'll expand later when I have a chance
Excited to hear it, although I'm surprisd to be "2" if I'm really your biggest scum read.
Working backwards from the bottom up of the post list that voltaire posted... so not in order just 1.2.3.4 (except there wasn't a fourth I was very interested in lynching)
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No no no didn't you read my post? You're supposed to misunderstand it! :(
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No no no didn't you read my post? You're supposed to misunderstand it! :(
Oh god Voltaire is doing PoE already ? So useless and stupid !
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I wouldn't eliminate yuma, but I would eliminate PPS (and myself). So mostly agree as well!
Why PPS?
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Do you think I'm scum, pps?
I don't know. I think you are my favorite target for discovering your alignment because if I could know you were town I would be able to set said my suspicions and discover a better focus. If I thought you were for sure scum I'd be voting you right now.
It's these Cop softclaims that are the reason for my policy vote. Especially coming from someone who argued strongly against claiming.
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I wouldn't eliminate yuma, but I would eliminate PPS (and myself). So mostly agree as well!
Why PPS?
He is a townread, and while he admitted recognizing that the out there behavior is an easy way to score town cred from me, it's also what got him lynched as a VT in his second game (despite my vehement opposition!), so I don't think he'd choose to create convoluted conspiracy theories as a ploy for town cred.
Also, he is active and keeps the game moving, and I think his creative ideas are generally good for our scumhunting morale.
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Do you think I'm scum, pps?
I don't know. I think you are my favorite target for discovering your alignment because if I could know you were town I would be able to set said my suspicions and discover a better focus. If I thought you were for sure scum I'd be voting you right now.
It's these Cop softclaims that are the reason for my policy vote. Especially coming from someone who argued strongly against claiming.
Interesting take on that. I actually meant it more as a cop directive than as "Imma target you with my cop power which must be fairly early or else why would I mention it like this, so kill me ASAP there scum guys, derp".
I'll be happy to take your double vote on me for trying to direct Town cops, though.
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Also, TA immediately echoed me. Why do I get the vote and you ignore him doing the same?
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Also, TA immediately echoed me. Why do I get the vote and you ignore him doing the same?
I just think it's strange that people would A) comment on their night action before it happens or B) try to tell other players what to do with their night action. Both seem more scummy things to do. TA did this a little bit, but no as much as you.
But I guess I am back to vote: no lynch, because that's still the best we can do.
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3. faust--don't see the townread from voltaire...
Is the only reason why you would lynch me because you don't have a town read on me?
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I don't think no lynch is the best option. I think we can do better than that, and it will give us more info for D2. I don't think we can be afraid of killing a PR, because everyone is a PR! I don't think that is a valid excuse. For all we know, we won't even get any results tomorrow. I'm going to be V/LA until probably tuesday as I am moving back to school and settling in. Lemme know if Robz ever shows up...
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I don't think no lynch is the best option. I think we can do better than that, and it will give us more info for D2. I don't think we can be afraid of killing a PR, because everyone is a PR! I don't think that is a valid excuse. For all we know, we won't even get any results tomorrow. I'm going to be V/LA until probably tuesday as I am moving back to school and settling in. Lemme know if Robz ever shows up...
You want to lynch for information, but the more people we keep alive until D5, the more info we get. So this argument doesn't work. And I think info from PRs is more important than wagon analysis.
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3. faust--don't see the townread from voltaire...
Is the only reason why you would lynch me because you don't have a town read on me?
Yep. That must be the reason. Couldn't be the reasons I was voting for you earlier, right?
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I don't think no lynch is the best option. I think we can do better than that, and it will give us more info for D2. I don't think we can be afraid of killing a PR, because everyone is a PR! I don't think that is a valid excuse. For all we know, we won't even get any results tomorrow. I'm going to be V/LA until probably tuesday as I am moving back to school and settling in. Lemme know if Robz ever shows up...
You want to lynch for information, but the more people we keep alive until D5, the more info we get. So this argument doesn't work. And I think info from PRs is more important than wagon analysis.
Furthermore, the argument doesn't work because if we don't have Day1 now, Day2 will become the new Day1. So we won't be lacking information... the crucial aspect is that we will be down a player basically starting day1 over again but hopefully with some relevant information and a greater potential to obtain it later in the game.
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3. faust--don't see the townread from voltaire...
Is the only reason why you would lynch me because you don't have a town read on me?
Yep. That must be the reason. Couldn't be the reasons I was voting for you earlier, right?
Okay, reading again, your reasons were 1) I was "discouraging setup discussion" by voting pps, 2) I was one of the votes on pps, and according to you, scum would have voted for pps. Well, fair enough, it's D1 and there wasn't a lot besides theory talk, so I guess you could come to that conclusion.
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My position on no-lynch, or how I learned to stop worrying and love the vote:
If we mislynch today we know for certain we will hit a PR. The question is whether or not the information gained from the lynch outweighs the collateral damage of losing a PR. For D1 purposes the answer is a resounding no. The problem with using that as the basis for going into no lynch is the assumption that there somehow must be a mislynch.
If we do correctly lynch today then there becomes zero question that lynching was the best possible move to make.
So the question then fallaciously seems to start centering around how probable it is that we would correctly lynch. That is impossible to ever calculate because there is no way to account for which PR gets NK'd. If a N1 cop gets NK'd then there's a dramatic reduction in the utility gained by avoiding the mislynch of that N1 cop (even if there were another N1 cop in the game).
Thus, I posit that the positive coefficient of a correct lynch is sufficiently greater than the negative coefficient of a mislynch to make no-lynch the less attractive option precisely because it is Day 1.
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I haven't posted in a few days, I've still been following along, just haven't had much to say.
I am still leaning toward no lynch, though I like PPS's explanation that it comes down to how likely a correct lynch is compared to a mislynch, my intuition says it is not enough to make up for the difference between the outcomes. Still open to arguments to the contrary though.
I will be traveling tomorrow so I will not be able to post for most of the day.
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Can we get a prod on Robz?
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Don't prod me, I'm here! Catching up.
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Also, I don't think a prod on Robz is necessary or will help much:
Sorry all, I have ended up having a bit more extended VLA than I thought, squeezing in a quick trip to NYC on top of everything else.
I will update Survivor and attempt to participate in mafia tomorrow, Sunday.
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My position on no-lynch, or how I learned to stop worrying and love the vote:
If we mislynch today we know for certain we will hit a PR.
I think this isn't what I am worried about. Hitting a PR isn't the issue for me in a sense... Rather, it is my belief that the longer this game goes the more information we will collectively obtain from our PRs... That is I think mafia wants a shorter game to give as little time as possible for town PRs to do their thing, whereas I think town wants the longer game to allow as many PRs as possible to be effective. A PR that doesn't get used because we are at lylo on day4 (Day1 13 players, mislynch, NK> Day2 11mislynch, NK Day3 9 mislynch, NK>7 mislynch=6 and mafia wins) or day5 is obviously quite useless. So by just having 2 no-lynches we only deal with (Day1 13 players, NK>Day2 12 players NK>Day3 11 players, mislynch, NK>Day4 9 players mislynch, NK>Day5 7 mislynch=6 and mafia wins) gives us an extra day to get toward those PRs being effective.
So basically it is trading two town controlled kills (that might hit mafia) for two certain mafia controlled kills and one extra day of investigative power that may bring something with it....
And when I put it in those terms, I am less enamored with the idea...
Vote: Robz
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delayed PPE... I know Robz is somewhat VLA, but he still gets my vote. If he were in my shoes I think he would agree as he is totally for LALL...
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Can we get a prod on Robz?
Based on his V/LA announcement, I will give him until the end of tomorrow before prodding him.
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Yuma, how much is voting robz a policy vote versus thinking he will turn up scum?
Like, I get where the idea comes from, but I learn nothing from lunching him,,, I would rather lynch someone I get info from, like pps
Also I dunno if I answered earlier or not, I think Faust asked this, but I was referring to lynching pps giving info, not copping pps. I am seriously struggling so hard to read pps. I don't have a gut read on him And it's difficult, his actions are scummy and I'm not sure if he's scum or not, I haven't played with him and I don't know. I have two gut reads right now, and that's Faust as town, eevee as mafia. Beyond that I don't know.
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Yuma, how much is voting robz a policy vote versus thinking he will turn up scum?
Like, I get where the idea comes from, but I learn nothing from lunching him,,, I would rather lynch someone I get info from, like pps
I don't really do policy votes.
What I do do is eliminate players who I am not willing to vote for and then that leaves me with players that I am. Robz 1. is in that group of players 2. Lurking, which I think day1 is more scummy than townie, even with his VLA 3. had the most votes on him (or now has the most votes on him), and at this stage we need to get some wagons going so we can get that precious information you are so interested in to analyze later.
Speaking about info... of course we will get info. Saying anything else is silly. If we get to the point where Robz is lynched we 1. get his flip (info!), 2. nealry everyone is going to have to take a stand (info!) and 3 Robz will likely come in and be either apologetic or rather rilled up that we are voting for him for lurking and likely give reads before we lynch him (info!)
So I am quite happy with my robz vote!
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I haven't posted in a few days, I've still been following along, just haven't had much to say.
I am still leaning toward no lynch, though I like PPS's explanation that it comes down to how likely a correct lynch is compared to a mislynch, my intuition says it is not enough to make up for the difference between the outcomes. Still open to arguments to the contrary though.
I will be traveling tomorrow so I will not be able to post for most of the day.
Even if you do not want to vote, it would be helpful to say which players you think could be scum.
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I disagree Yuma..asking players to make a stand on robz and then trying to use that as information is silly. Because there's absolutely no reason to know if he is town or scum, and town members who don't have that information are just guessing when they pick, and it probably reflects broader views than anything we can glean from alignment. Until he comes back I don't know how anyone can get a good read on him, and without a read, town members can't place a vote that can be analyzed... Like if he were to not come back and get lynched, and flip town, I don't know how we could find the people who voted him scummy since the majority were townies that had no clue.
No reads on robz -> no meaningful reasons for votes by townies -> very hard to read any wagon on robz. I just don't think he's any more likely to be scum than the normal 3/13 odds, and I'm not willing to lynch on those odds.
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I guess you missed the part where he is expected to participate today and finding votes on him should pressure out an informative reaction.
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No reads on robz -> no meaningful reasons for votes by townies -> very hard to read any wagon on robz. I just don't think he's any more likely to be scum than the normal 3/13 odds, and I'm not willing to lynch on those odds.
That's not entirely true, as your reads on others players change the original 3/13 a bit.
Fwiw, I'm sure this is not intentional, the man is just busy. It's unfortunate, but I don't think it makes him any more likely to be scum.
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My position on no-lynch, or how I learned to stop worrying and love the vote:
If we mislynch today we know for certain we will hit a PR.
I think this isn't what I am worried about. Hitting a PR isn't the issue for me in a sense... Rather, it is my belief that the longer this game goes the more information we will collectively obtain from our PRs... That is I think mafia wants a shorter game to give as little time as possible for town PRs to do their thing, whereas I think town wants the longer game to allow as many PRs as possible to be effective. A PR that doesn't get used because we are at lylo on day4 (Day1 13 players, mislynch, NK> Day2 11mislynch, NK Day3 9 mislynch, NK>7 mislynch=6 and mafia wins) or day5 is obviously quite useless. So by just having 2 no-lynches we only deal with (Day1 13 players, NK>Day2 12 players NK>Day3 11 players, mislynch, NK>Day4 9 players mislynch, NK>Day5 7 mislynch=6 and mafia wins) gives us an extra day to get toward those PRs being effective.
So basically it is trading two town controlled kills (that might hit mafia) for two certain mafia controlled kills and one extra day of investigative power that may bring something with it....
And when I put it in those terms, I am less enamored with the idea...
Vote: Robz
I think you got it wrong here. The advantage we get from no-lynching is not mainly that we get an extra Day to investigate. It is that all of our PRs have a higher chance of surviving until their night action comes and thus us getting significantly more night actions.
With no-lynch, by D6 we will have 5 dead town players (maybe less if a doc is successful). This means it is certain that we have 5 night actions going through.
Putting it in another way, it looks like this (ignoring possible doc protection because it's too complicated to calculate):
Likelihood of Investigation going through No-Lynch Lynch
Night 1 90,0% 82,5%
Night 2 80,0% 65,5%
Night 3 70,0% 49,0%
Night 4 60,0% 33,3%
Night 5 50,0% 18,8%
I still think it's worth it to increase the odds that our investigations (of which we have at least 4) to go through.
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Lynching increases targeting relevance well ahead of just random.
If the interest in increasing the odds of a successful investigation I still see lynching as being the more ideal option.
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Agree with pps
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Ah the delicious irony of you agreeing with me that we should lynch seeing as you're voting for my lynch ;D
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I agree, no-lynch is unhelpful. We need interactions and opinions, not statistics.
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delayed PPE... I know Robz is somewhat VLA, but he still gets my vote. If he were in my shoes I think he would agree as he is totally for LALL...
But it's not scummy when Robz does it!
Okay, I'm really sorry everyone--I have just had an insanely busy week. As you can see, I barely had time for the other game (which is at a more improtant stage) and Survivor (where the only game relies on me doing stuff).
So I can definitely participate more now, although I'm still behind, and reading through the whole thread seems pretty daunting, although I plan to get to it.
So what's going on?
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Okay, no one is really around I guess.
Yuma, I don't understand why you are voting for me, even though you explained it. Or rather, I think your explanation fails. Do you think my level of participation so far in this game is actually affected by my alignment? It would surprise me if you really did think that.
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I viewed yuma's vote as "this is unacceptable, Robz better come back strong and help us read him".
As to what has been happening, my take would be "lots of theory talk, faust being suspected again, PPS acting controversially, most people generally struggling with finding stuff worth analyzing".
Sadly, I don't think we've created anything that would be useful to reread later when we have some flips and more information. I feel we are still trying to get the game going.
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Who do you think is scummy, Eevee?
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Who do you think is scummy, Eevee?
That's the thing, I have no idea. There hasn't been any substance posted that would have given me any strong reads, not even the "if x, then y" kind. I think PPS is towny, I think all this theory talk has made the start of the day very easy for scum.
Honestly you've probably posted more content than I have. In that sense it's maybe noteworthy you are getting called out so strongly.
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I disagree Yuma..asking players to make a stand on robz and then trying to use that as information is silly. Because there's absolutely no reason to know if he is town or scum, and town members who don't have that information are just guessing when they pick, and it probably reflects broader views than anything we can glean from alignment. Until he comes back I don't know how anyone can get a good read on him, and without a read, town members can't place a vote that can be analyzed... Like if he were to not come back and get lynched, and flip town, I don't know how we could find the people who voted him scummy since the majority were townies that had no clue.
No reads on robz -> no meaningful reasons for votes by townies -> very hard to read any wagon on robz. I just don't think he's any more likely to be scum than the normal 3/13 odds, and I'm not willing to lynch on those odds.
Nope. This is wrong. For example, the above which you just provided... is something that we can look back on and analyze and is something we wouldn't have if we weren't considering robz for a lynch. If robz flips town, we can use it, if robz flips scum we can use it. If robz doesn't flip we can use it. It might not be extremely, super useful, but it is "information."
and you are talking about this entire conjecture in a vacuum. like everyone is just going to say "not vote robz" or "vote robz" and have nothing else to say or that there won't be other lynch options floating around....
Basically you are arguing from my perspective that the only players we should consider lynching are those who have lots of content that is already available to analyze--so the complete opposite of LALL and the complete opposite of what Voltaire, Galz and I have proposed to be the better way of scum hunting with far superior results than lynching active players day1.
Look, I am not saying we are going to get an abundance of information by lynching Robz. But I don't vote for information. I vote to lynch, hopefully, and if not then to leave alive players that will be easier to read on later days because of their content...
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Okay, no one is really around I guess.
Yuma, I don't understand why you are voting for me, even though you explained it. Or rather, I think your explanation fails. Do you think my level of participation so far in this game is actually affected by my alignment? It would surprise me if you really did think that.
I am voting for you because you aren't in my list of players that I don't want to vote for and because I don't think you are more likely to be town than scum, compared to other players and are thus someone I would vote for.
I do think your participation so far in this game is affected by your alignment. I understand the VLA and understand that it has lessened it regardless of your alignment, but I do think that you are willing to take advantage of said VLAs. Look, I am not trying to be a jerk and say that you should have posted more during your VLA, I just think that the times that you have posted during your VLA, before and after as it appears it is over lack any desire to respond to current ongoing events even if you aren't fully caught up. But really that is all water under the bridge. Mostly I don't have a townread on you so I am willing to vote for you. If your wagon doesn't progress, I am willing to look elsewhere, but I want to at least see what happens here.
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Who do you think is scummy, Eevee?
That's the thing, I have no idea. There hasn't been any substance posted that would have given me any strong reads, not even the "if x, then y" kind. I think PPS is towny, I think all this theory talk has made the start of the day very easy for scum.
Honestly you've probably posted more content than I have. In that sense it's maybe noteworthy you are getting called out so strongly.
Good point... vote: eevee... so much for seeing where the robz wagon goes... I am more interested in seeing where the eevee wagon goes.
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I was just going to post and say I found Eevee's response on the townier side. It's sincere and unafraid (scum, by contrast, would usually try to give me a more "satisfactory" answer, I think.)
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Hmm, so Eevee has been mostly makings sense, which of course is fairly null. TA's point against him also makes sense though - he came out with some early reads (Town on pps and faust, scum on TA), and then reverted back to "I have no idea".
So not much to go on, but I think enough for now for me to support the Eevee wagon. Vote: Eevee
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Robz has posted 7 times, 4 of which were in the last 11 posts. I fully believe that he's been busy and I hope he can provide more content in the near future. For me, not enough there for a vote.
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I was just going to post and say I found Eevee's response on the townier side. It's sincere and unafraid (scum, by contrast, would usually try to give me a more "satisfactory" answer, I think.)
and completely and totally useless.
so if we are going to reward useless posts with townie reads... then sure he might look townier.... and maybe it is, but I for one have no desire to be like TA and only vote for players who are actually contributing something of value...
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Although in looking back I should say that TA is actually voting for Eevee.... I was under the impression that he was voting for PPS. official vote count would be nice! So I take back what I said about TA as I thought he had only recently voted PPS and me.
here is where we stand:
Robz888 (2): pingpongsam, AHoppy
Twistedarcher (2): Eevee, chairs
No Lynch (2): scott_pilgrim, faust
Eevee (4): TA, Archetype, yuma, Jimmmm
ahoppy (1): voltaire
Not Voting (2): Robz888, Teproc
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Vote Count 1.4
Robz888 (2): pingpongsam, AHoppy
Twistedarcher (2): Eevee, chairs
Eevee (4): Twistedarcher, Archetype, yuma, Jimmmmm
AHoppy (1): Voltaire
No Lynch (2): scott_pilgrim, faust
Not Voting (2): Robz888, Teproc
With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.
Day 1 ends January 23rd, 12:00 AM.
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Seeing that robz is back, I'm going to unvote
A little behind and too busy/tired to catch up right now.
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Checking in; it's finals week, so things have been/are going to be hectic. Been vaguely following along, but won't be able to take a more in-depth look until later.
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Null on Eevee, null on the Eevee wagon.
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No one else is really in big danger, so in that sense scum has no reason to join my wagon willy-nilly. That being said, especially Archetype's vote seems kind of easy. Yuma I'd characterize as generally gung-ho in this game, which I don't read as scummy.
Eh, in the end, I'm a low poster and relatively low contributer, a very good target for frustrated townies and scum alike. It's hard to read too much into my wagon, I'm sorry.
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In a sense this wagon makes me happy. At least it gives me something to talk about, I'm making a conscious effort to react as much as possible to give you guys a chance to make the correct read on me.
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In a sense this wagon makes me happy. At least it gives me something to talk about, I'm making a conscious effort to react as much as possible to give you guys a chance to make the correct read on me.
"A concious effort to react as much as possible" is something I would expect scum to make. Town should just play normally. Also, you say the wagon on you gives you something to talk about, but still in the post before, you say that you can't read much into the wagon. So what are you planning on talking about?
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In a sense this wagon makes me happy. At least it gives me something to talk about, I'm making a conscious effort to react as much as possible to give you guys a chance to make the correct read on me.
"A concious effort to react as much as possible" is something I would expect scum to make. Town should just play normally.
But do you think scum says it out loud?
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In a sense this wagon makes me happy. At least it gives me something to talk about, I'm making a conscious effort to react as much as possible to give you guys a chance to make the correct read on me.
"A concious effort to react as much as possible" is something I would expect scum to make. Town should just play normally.
But do you think scum says it out loud?
This. It actually reminds me of [REDACTED] (hint : it involved ashersky and faust)
I don't really like the Eevee wagon. His nonchalance towards day 1 is something he's done both as scum and town, and his reaction to it reads somewhat townie to me.
Archetype's vote is the same as when he voted Robz earlier in the game. I guess it's pretty safe for scum to just lynch lurkers, but Archetype is known for being mislynched, so I'm assuming his default play is pretty scummy ?
I don't like Jimmm's vote at all though. The fourth vote is what makes it a wagon, and I don't think Eevee is a good wagon because of his relative lurkiness. I also don't agree with the idea that Eevee has reverted back from his early reads, it seems to me he's been consistent on finding PPS townie (I could check that but I'll let Jimmmmm do it since he brought it up. Laziness !).
vote: Jimmmmm
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In a sense this wagon makes me happy. At least it gives me something to talk about, I'm making a conscious effort to react as much as possible to give you guys a chance to make the correct read on me.
"A concious effort to react as much as possible" is something I would expect scum to make. Town should just play normally. Also, you say the wagon on you gives you something to talk about, but still in the post before, you say that you can't read much into the wagon. So what are you planning on talking about?
"I can't make very firm conclusions, not yet anyways" is a reaction, it's talk caused by the wagon. So was your clarifying question and my reply here. I think making a conscious effort is normal and good here, I want to give you guys all the material to read me I possibly can. I'm worried I'll end up lynched to avoid nolynching because no one has a townread on me or particularly minds seeing me lynched, which also is not a great start for analyzing things tomorrow. We need stronger stances or we won't gain anything from any of this.
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Stronger stance: I agree with Faust 100%, I think eevee is likely scum, and I want this lynch to go through.
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I don't like Jimmm's vote at all though. The fourth vote is what makes it a wagon, and I don't think Eevee is a good wagon because of his relative lurkiness. I also don't agree with the idea that Eevee has reverted back from his early reads, it seems to me he's been consistent on finding PPS townie (I could check that but I'll let Jimmmmm do it since he brought it up. Laziness !).
vote: Jimmmmm
Why do you think Eevee's not a good wagon? I think no matter which alignment Eevee is, the wagon on him was good because it led to reactions. If it's Jimmmmm who caused these reactions with his vote, that's a pro-town thing to do. So I don't think what you're saying is a reason to lynch Jimmmm.
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Well, any wagon is going to cause reaction, sure. I just think wagons based on inactivity are weaker than wagons based on actual content. Jimmmm's substantial reason for voting Eevee is one I disagree with, and with all the "wagons are good" talk, it seems like being on an early wagon is a good way to grab towncred.
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I was just going to post and say I found Eevee's response on the townier side. It's sincere and unafraid (scum, by contrast, would usually try to give me a more "satisfactory" answer, I think.)
and completely and totally useless.
so if we are going to reward useless posts with townie reads... then sure he might look townier.... and maybe it is, but I for one have no desire to be like TA and only vote for players who are actually contributing something of value...
Yes, I agree that I have been voting contributers exclusively in this game...but I think that Eevee is more likely scum. You reacted well enough that I am not sold on your scumminess, and don't want to lynch you, and I don't know how to read PPS at all...
If I didn't have a scum read on an active player, I'd be happy to LALL, but I think Eevee is scum at this point, and anyways he's as close to a lurker as we have now that Robz has come back, right?
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But do you think scum says it out loud?
Maybe, maybe not. I'm not saying Eevee is scum for this, only that it's something I don't expect to hear from town. Eevee's following post reads more townie to me, so I'm not really sure. And given that I'm still in support of no lynch, I will only vote for someone if I'm fairly certain or to avoid a worse lynch.
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I don't really like the Eevee wagon. His nonchalance towards day 1 is something he's done both as scum and town, and his reaction to it reads somewhat townie to me.
Can you please clarify this...the phrase "his reaction reads somewhat townie" is so ambiguous. How does it read somewhat townie? Is "somewhat townie" enough of a phrase that you're willing to accept that he's town and that hunting on his wagon is the best place to look for scum, because that's what you are doing here. What makes Eevee so townie that his wagon is the best place to look for scum?
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Well as I said above, I agree with Voltaire that scum doesn't make the obvious scummy statements like "A concious effort to react as much as possible". I also think Eevee is playing in a way that is similar to Dynasty Warriors II, where he was town. I had a town read on Eevee before the wagon, and his reaction to it has reinforced it. I probably shouldn't have said "somewhat", basically.
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I disagree Yuma..asking players to make a stand on robz and then trying to use that as information is silly. Because there's absolutely no reason to know if he is town or scum, and town members who don't have that information are just guessing when they pick, and it probably reflects broader views than anything we can glean from alignment. Until he comes back I don't know how anyone can get a good read on him, and without a read, town members can't place a vote that can be analyzed... Like if he were to not come back and get lynched, and flip town, I don't know how we could find the people who voted him scummy since the majority were townies that had no clue.
No reads on robz -> no meaningful reasons for votes by townies -> very hard to read any wagon on robz. I just don't think he's any more likely to be scum than the normal 3/13 odds, and I'm not willing to lynch on those odds.
Nope. This is wrong. For example, the above which you just provided... is something that we can look back on and analyze and is something we wouldn't have if we weren't considering robz for a lynch. If robz flips town, we can use it, if robz flips scum we can use it. If robz doesn't flip we can use it. It might not be extremely, super useful, but it is "information."
and you are talking about this entire conjecture in a vacuum. like everyone is just going to say "not vote robz" or "vote robz" and have nothing else to say or that there won't be other lynch options floating around....
Basically you are arguing from my perspective that the only players we should consider lynching are those who have lots of content that is already available to analyze--so the complete opposite of LALL and the complete opposite of what Voltaire, Galz and I have proposed to be the better way of scum hunting with far superior results than lynching active players day1.
Look, I am not saying we are going to get an abundance of information by lynching Robz. But I don't vote for information. I vote to lynch, hopefully, and if not then to leave alive players that will be easier to read on later days because of their content...
Well yes, generally I want to vote players I have scum reads on, and I'm more likely to have a scum read on a player who is active...so I suppose you are correct there. And I get that that kind of sucks, but I mean, I am not going to stay away from voting a player who I think is likelier scum, regardless of their post count...
I also don't know that the new method has given superior results...scum have kinda been on a roll in normal games lately, haven't they? Except for Dynasty warriors, scum have been doing well lately...but this is kinda not worth arguing over, I think.
Basically I just want to vote my top scumread, unless I have a good reason not to...and Robz had not given him any reason to lynch him today. It's true that if my top read were you or Voltaire or someone, I'd probably want to be more sure than normal to vote for that person, but if I was I would not hesitate to vote there. Regardless, now I'm voting Eevee, and I am definitely leaning scum there, and he's not super active enough for me to worry about losing a top contributor.
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Eevee's recent posts sound really townie to me.
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Well as I said above, I agree with Voltaire that scum doesn't make the obvious scummy statements like "A concious effort to react as much as possible". I also think Eevee is playing in a way that is similar to Dynasty Warriors II, where he was town. I had a town read on Eevee before the wagon, and his reaction to it has reinforced it. I probably shouldn't have said "somewhat", basically.
But how is his play similar! This is just an easy statement to throw out there without proof.
What gave you the townread before the wagon?
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His similar play to Dynasty Warriors was giving me the townread. His "making sense = scum" in particular is something he said early in that game (against me actually) and his general attitude of not posting a lot and having a hard time forming reads. Compared to GoT, where he was also less active early, but his reads were much stronger. I think I've made this point earlier, which is why I didn't give "proof".
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Hey, you shouldn't invoke Dynasty Warriors until it's over.
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Is it not okay when talking about Eevee's play, since he has flipped town already there ? I thought it was. Sorry if it wasn't.
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Is it not okay when talking about Eevee's play, since he has flipped town already there ? I thought it was. Sorry if it wasn't.
No talking about ongoing games at all until they're over.
The reason we have this rule? You're still alive in DW. Players shouldn't be able to get a read on you in that game from how you talk about it in this game.
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Ok, here's the reason for my initial vote on Eevee, I haven't completely had time to write this out.
Basically, I associate D1 Eevee with going off of his gut, rather than his head. There are multiple times where he's been able to nail me as scum (correctly) based off of a gut read -- Innovation, Monty Python Blitz Mafia, and Modern Community all stand out for me as times that Eevee used gut reads to pick out scum early (and these stick out clearly to me since I was on the receiving end of these gut reads). To me, a typical early D1 Eevee post is something like "Hey guys, I'm following around, I don't have any strong reads yet, nothing has stuck out to me", etc. etc. etc. I got a completely different feeling from one of his first posts of this game (which I will quote later), and it reads scum to me.
I just went back to look for comparisons with his most recent scum games (Game of Thrones, Mean Girls). Let's quote early posts from those games here:
I think the only game MGP is in is still ongoing, so actually no, we cant' give you a rundown.
Ashersky, "super towny" might be bit of a stretch about your play in bankers beware..
Actually these longer "more analytical" posts (which I find better as a town playing style) are actually a trait I attribute to scum ashersky. Vote: ashersky, only semi-rvs.
This quote is from Mean Girls, where Eevee was scum. Note that Eevee did not know that Ashersky was scum in D1 of this game, even though they were partners (Yuma or Eevee, correct me if this is wrong). This was about his 9th post of the game, but the ones before that were mostly involved in theory.
I'd like to plob my vote down somewhere. Walrus's flipflopping on faust sememed like he wants to please the crowd, first finding him scummy but then changing his mind when yuma (?) voiced criticism on his reasons. That's more mafiay behavior in my opinion, especially a newer mafia would want to blend in with the crowd.
vote: walrus
This is one of the first posts from Eevee in Game of Thrones, where he was also scum. Probably, again, about his 10th post of the game -- there were a few talking about theory (should Bulletproof Townie claim), and then a catch up post where he posts a few reads, followed immediately by this post. There's a similarity with the last post -- an identity of a scum trait, which he attributes to a player, then voting that player.
Vote: TwistedArcher
It does help to move the game towards social deduction if people start voting. This is unfair because TA really made some good points, but the way he laid them out, all sense-making and noncontroversial, is just how scum likes to blend in in my opinion.
As I get more experienced with mafia, I too am starting to suffer from a case of Robziaitis, which is caring less and less how others view you or your alignment, and more and more about just doing what you think will work.
Now, this is the post from this game that I found scummy. There's some similarities with the previous two posts, again - it's an identity of a possible scum trait, followed by attributing that trait to a player, then an early vote.
This is VERY different than the early town meta I associate with Eevee, which is him trying to get a "feel" for the game early on. There are similarities between all three of these games -- two where Eevee is scum, and this game where Eevee is unknown. His reasoning, identifying "scum traits" early, rather than having a "gut read" on a player (which I associate with town Eevee), is something that I think makes Eevee to flip scum here.
The next step, of course, which I haven't taken, is to go back and read games where Eevee was town, and see how exclusive this trait is to his town games, if at all. I will hopefully get to that soon.
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Is it not okay when talking about Eevee's play, since he has flipped town already there ? I thought it was. Sorry if it wasn't.
No talking about ongoing games at all until they're over.
The reason we have this rule? You're still alive in DW. Players shouldn't be able to get a read on you in that game from how you talk about it in this game.
Exactly.
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Ok, I thought people who had flipped were fair game, but what you're saying makes sense of course. I won't do it again.
PS : This means I could talk about it if we were both dead in it, right ? This is peripheral stuff that doesn't actually contribute to this game, but I do want to know exactly where the line is.
PPE : Oh, well I disagree with TA's conclusions here, but I do get a townread on TA from that post.
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Ok, I thought people who had flipped were fair game, but what you're saying makes sense of course. I won't do it again.
PS : This means I could talk about it if we were both dead in it, right ? This is peripheral stuff that doesn't actually contribute to this game, but I do want to know exactly where the line is.
PPE : Oh, well I disagree with TA's conclusions here, but I do get a townread on TA from that post.
Still no. You can't discuss any aspect of a game until it's over. Because what if I wanted to argue against the point you were making, but I was still alive in the othe game, and of unknown alignment? You just can't go there at all until it's over.
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Twistedarcher - Town
faust - Town - My biggest town read, I think his posts have been extremely genuine, he has been asking good questions, and he just screams town to me.
Voltaire - Town - probably my second biggest town read, behind Faust. He's making so much sense, and I agree with his reads so much. This is potentially dangerous, but right now, he is just making so much sense and reading the game very similarly to me.
chairs - Slight Town - Although I don't give him as much town cred as Voltaire has. I am null on him forgetting the game, but I am leaning town here. I get a more disinterested town than anything else.
Jimmmmm - Slightly Town - Getting a town feel from a lot of his posts, and I haven't seen anything that makes me want to look this way for a lynch at all.
Robz888 - Null - Lurking, and came back like he would if he were either town or scum, I think
scott_pilgrim - Null - Lurking, I don't remember much that he's said. Need to revisit him.
Archetype - Null - The only player who, when I was going through this list, I thought "Oh yeah, he's in this game". I couldn't tell you anything about his play so far.
yuma - Slight scum - Although moving more to null, I think. Analyzing the early wagon was scummy, but I think he generally reacted well to the vote. I want to revisit this later, but I don't want to lynch him D1, I think.
pingpongsam - Slight scum - I don't know how to read him, I really don't. Some of his actions have seemed so scummy, but I am just unsure on how to read him. Like Yuma, probably better saved for later, when I can get a better read, because I am fluctuating back and forth on him more than anyone else.
AHoppy - Slightly scum - I think it was his early reads post that gave me a scummy vibe, and I can't quite explain why. There's something about that post that threw me off, and I have been meaning to go back and see if I can find exactly what it was that gave me this read. I also got a slightly scummish read from his post saying "I'm following, but don't have a lot to say", as it came after Chairs getting some towncred for making the exact same post.
Teproc - Slight scum - Doing the same thing I found Yuma scummy for -- analyzing the Eevee wagon, with what I find to be pretty weak reasons. "He seems similar to this game where he was town" is always a weak reason for finding someone scummy -- it always reads as a cop out to me, or as someone using it to justify a position when they don't really have a good reason. I don't remember much of his play except for the recent things. I am definitely viewing this through the "I think Eevee is scum" lens, though.
Eevee - Scum - I just went over this.
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Teproc, why do you disagree with my conclusions? I need more than what you've been giving me!
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Archetype - Null - The only player who, when I was going through this list, I thought "Oh yeah, he's in this game". I couldn't tell you anything about his play so far.
Perhaps you should read the beginning of this Day again. Archetype was the one who proposed the Doc/Cop claiming plan. The way he approached this left me with a town impression, you might be able to get some read from there as well.
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Oh I agree I super need to re-read, but Hearthstone is taking up all my online time these days..
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Archetype... left me with a town impression
... on Day 1? That's different!
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Archetype... left me with a town impression
... on Day 1? That's different!
I know, I'm quite surprised myself!
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Teproc, why do you disagree with my conclusions? I need more than what you've been giving me!
Sure.
This is VERY different than the early town meta I associate with Eevee, which is him trying to get a "feel" for the game early on.
This is where I disagree. It seems to me that Eevee is doing exactly what you describe here, saying he's having a hard time getting reads on people, trying to contribute to get the game moving along.
I don't think his vote on you resembles the other votes you've quoted that much, so in this game I see Eevee behaving as his town self.
I also expect you to ask clarifications on why your Eevee case gives me a townread on you, so here goes. If you were scum, I don't think you'd be pointing out the fact that Eevee has a history of catching you and then vote for him when he's actually voting for you right now (and his vote for you is one of your arguments against him).
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AHoppy - Slightly scum - I think it was his early reads post that gave me a scummy vibe, and I can't quite explain why. There's something about that post that threw me off, and I have been meaning to go back and see if I can find exactly what it was that gave me this read. I also got a slightly scummish read from his post saying "I'm following, but don't have a lot to say", as it came after Chairs getting some towncred for making the exact same post.
Teproc - Slight scum - Doing the same thing I found Yuma scummy for -- analyzing the Eevee wagon, with what I find to be pretty weak reasons. "He seems similar to this game where he was town" is always a weak reason for finding someone scummy -- it always reads as a cop out to me, or as someone using it to justify a position when they don't really have a good reason. I don't remember much of his play except for the recent things. I am definitely viewing this through the "I think Eevee is scum" lens, though.
Eevee - Scum - I just went over this.
I don't agree with some of TA's other reads, I would have me (obviously) chairs and PPS higher while faust and Jimmmm lower, but I do agree with these three reads.
Obviously I am voting for Eevee, and I mentioned, but havent' gotten around to actually detailing, that some things from Teproc have stood out to me. But I think I am still ok with my Eevee vote so I am not in a big rush to put those points down
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After thinking about it some more I can see why people don't like the no lynch plan. Every time we don't lynch, we have to make up for the chance that we could have hit mafia by the value of the 1-2 extra power uses we might get. If we lynch town, then we still get information, probably about as much as we would get (on average) from the extra power uses we could have had. So they come out about the same, except that if we lynch we might hit mafia, which is obviously better than not lynching mafia.
Okay, so mostly I feel like yuma, TA, and PPS are highest chance of being scum (mostly gut feeling). If TA is not scum then I think there would be a very good chance PPS is, so by lynching him we either hit scum or we get valuable information.
Vote: Twistedarcher
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Okay, so mostly I feel like yuma, TA, and PPS are highest chance of being scum (mostly gut feeling). If TA is not scum then I think there would be a very good chance PPS is, so by lynching him we either hit scum or we get valuable information.
Vote: Twistedarcher
If you end up lynching me, when I flip town, please do not assume PPS is town. I don't know why me flipping town would implicate PPS in any way.
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Assume PPS is scum**
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Well, it seems that the no-lynch plan has died, so I guess it's better for me to contribute to voting so that the mafia doesn't control the lynch. Between Teproc and Eevee, I think Teproc is acting more scummy in general. The way he defends Eevee (when Eevee himself says that there are reasons for town to vote for him) just feels strange, and could be either defending his partner or trying to grab towncred.
Vote: Teproc
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If TA is not scum then I think there would be a very good chance PPS is...
Can you elaborate on that? Without any substantiation it comes off as an attempt to line up two mislynches.
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Well, my thought was that since PPS went through that whole conspiracy theory arguing how TA would be scum, it would be likely that either his argument is actually correct (a lot of it seems reasonable), or that he specifically targeted TA because he was in a position to be set up as scum. PPS went back and forth on that theory, but that's not hard to fake as scum.
Of course I'm not saying if TA flips town just assume PPS is scum, I'm just saying that that's probably the strongest interaction we've had yet so we gain the most useful information from TA's flip.
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So if TA were to flip scum would you assume or just lean towards me being town?
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So if TA were to flip scum would you assume or just lean towards me being town?
No, I did not say if and only if. I just said if TA is town, you are more likely scum.
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Reads! Without a post-count (for now).
Jimmmmm
AHoppy
Robz888 - lite town (town!Robz doesn't care about D1 at all)
Twistedarcher
Archetype
Voltaire - me!
yuma
chairs - medium town (forgot about game)
Eevee - smallest of town reads (because if he is scum, he described exactly what he is doing to look town)
faust - town (unabashedly different though I think also wrong about things)
scott_pilgrim - lite town (considering no-lynch), also newbie D1
pingpongsam - now see this one is tricky, because I'd say town for being confrontational/different D1, but I looked at pps's other games and that appears to be his scum meta. Would probably vote to lynch if the choices came down to that or no lynch, but probably not otherwise.
Teproc
Others might get eliminated for post-count, but I'm just so worried about doing that when there's so much theory for scum to inflate their post counts.
I will say I am happy with my AHoppy vote right now (though I'd be happy with other votes too).
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I must have missed the line of reasoning on AHoppy. I'd call him null but I've not seen anyone describing him as either alignment.
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Also, I'd say of the 3 whole games I was Town I got crucified D1 for being strange and I got grilled considerably in another for being the new guy who didn't know what the hell he was doing. So, you have exactly one game where I was Town and maybe not confrontational. In all other games I've been scum. So, I'd say your meta pool on me is largely slanted towards saying I must be scum because more often than not I have been.
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So if TA were to flip scum would you assume or just lean towards me being town?
No, I did not say if and only if. I just said if TA is town, you are more likely scum.
Well, I guess what I am asking is whether or not you perceive the inverse to be true.
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I must have missed the line of reasoning on AHoppy. I'd call him null but I've not seen anyone describing him as either alignment.
That's more or less it. Scum is rarely obv!scum D1, so lynch a null.
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Here's a post count, not including pre-game :
Twistedarcher : 66
yuma : 56
Jimmmmm : 50
pingpongsam : 44
faust : 43
Voltaire : 43
nkirbit/Teproc : 41
Eevee : 16
Archetype : 15
AHoppy : 13
scott_pilgrim : 11
Robz : 11
chairs : 8
So we have 7 active players and 5 lurkers (more or less). Robz lurking on day 1 is probably townie, chairs just lurks in general, don't know about AHoppy, Archetype and scott_pilgrim. Eevee lurks day 1in both alignments I think.
On the other side, TA, yuma, Jimmmmm, Voltaire, pps and faust being active seems generally null, maybe slightly townie for faust.
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Wow. I feel like I've been lurking badly in this game, and I'm the third highest poster?? In your last sentence I saw my name and thought you must be naming inactive players. Obviously something needs to get this game going.
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Well this is based on post count only so it's not perfect. Like, I don't feel like I've been particularly active this game either, but there is such a clear-cut here that I pointed it out.
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Voltaire, I don't believe that eevee would be unafraid to act in this way if he were scum -- I don't get the town read from him.
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Voltaire, I don't believe that eevee would be unafraid to act in this way if he were scum -- I don't get the town read from him.
"Smallest of town reads". I think there are better lynch options today. It's not like I have a strong read. But it is on the town side.
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Voltaire, I don't believe that eevee would be unafraid to act in this way if he were scum -- I don't get the town read from him.
"Smallest of town reads". I think there are better lynch options today. It's not like I have a strong read. But it is on the town side.
Who are your top lynch preferences?
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Anyone who's name isn't crossed out in my most recent post, with PPS on the bottom of that list. I want to re-read the thread today based on a thinking I have, which will let me order that list better.
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oh god "whose" kill me now
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oh god "whose" kill me now
Ok... policy grammar vote: voltaire
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36 hours until deadline!
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Now that I have 3 votes on me, I'd love for someone voting for me to actually say why...Scott's reason was underwhelming (well, at least in my eyes) and I'm not sure why there's been a wagon forming on me for seemingly little reason.
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Now that I have 3 votes on me, I'd love for someone voting for me to actually say why...Scott's reason was underwhelming (well, at least in my eyes) and I'm not sure why there's been a wagon forming on me for seemingly little reason.
This is kinda a good point. scott's actually appears to be the most sensible, at least it has some logic to it, even if I don't think it is the best logic...
chairs was a joke vote. HEY CHAIRS!!! You want to be voting for twisted for real?
And eevee's... well I think eevee is scummy... I guess no one else wants to vote for voltaire for having bad grammar? vote: eevee
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yuma is overstating his confidence on my scumminess to get a lynch through, which I'm not too happy about.
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What I'm worried about is the amount of people coming out with town reads / slight town reads on eevee while I appear to be the most viable alternative lynch...not a fan at all!
Eevee, I'd loooove for you to respond to my most recent post about you. Actually for anyone to respond to it..it was the most analysis we've had to date I think yet only teproc bothered to respond!!
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yuma is overstating his confidence on my scumminess to get a lynch through, which I'm not too happy about.
I am?
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yuma is overstating his confidence on my scumminess to get a lynch through, which I'm not too happy about.
I agree. I do not think I want to vote Eevee today. Definitely like it better than the TA "wagon" though, so should it come down to the lynch being one of those two, I might vote Eevee.
PPE: 2
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yuma is overstating his confidence on my scumminess to get a lynch through, which I'm not too happy about.
I am?
[/quote
I wonder what this makes me, then...and it's interesting that he's making this point about Yuma but not me, while voting me but not Yuma..
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TA, considering your analysis post:
The next step, of course, which I haven't taken, is to go back and read games where Eevee was town, and see how exclusive this trait is to his town games, if at all. I will hopefully get to that soon.
It would be really great if you did that, because as-is, I don't take much from your analysis because it might just be the way Eevee generally plays D1.
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Ok, I will do that if I get to my computer today (no promises though, it's a snowday!!!!)
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Updating this list with my think - which is that there's been, like, no voting. Scum wants things to stall out/game not get started. They can do that by lurking and not voting. So looking at Teproc's post count:
Twistedarcher : 66 (we'll take him out for post count AND for helping move the game forward, if he's scum he'll trip up later, and it'd be horrible to lynch one of town's biggest contributor if that's the case)
yuma : 56
Jimmmmm : 50
pingpongsam : 44
faust : 43
Voltaire : 43
nkirbit/Teproc : 41
Eevee : 16
Archetype : 15
AHoppy : 13
scott_pilgrim : 11
Robz : 11
chairs : 8
and my own analysis of who appears to be voting usefully (subjective):
Twistedarcher : yes
yuma : yes
Jimmmmm : yes
pingpongsam : no
faust : yes
Voltaire : yes
nkirbit/Teproc : yes
Eevee : yes
Archetype : yes
AHoppy : no
scott_pilgrim : no
Robz : no
chairs : yes
and distill them into magic, and I'm left with:
Jimmmmm
AHoppy
Robz888 - lite town (town!Robz doesn't care about D1 at all)
Twistedarcher - see above
Archetype
Voltaire - me!
yuma - don't lynch yuma D1, also posting/contributing, etc. etc.
chairs - medium town (forgot about game)
Eevee - smallest of town reads (because if he is scum, he described exactly what he is doing to look town)
faust - town (unabashedly different though I think also wrong about things)
scott_pilgrim - lite town (considering no-lynch), also newbie D1
pingpongsam - now see this one is tricky, because I'd say town for being confrontational/different D1, but I looked at pps's other games and that appears to be his scum meta. Would probably vote to lynch if the choices came down to that or no lynch, but probably not otherwise.
Teproc
and I'm left with a lynch pool that looks like this, in order:
AHoppy
Archetype
Teproc
pps
Jimmmmm
I think. Would like to lynch AHoppy/Archetype/Teproc mostly, more the first two.
I wanna look at the wagons we had (TA/Eevee/PPS), but I doubt I'll get anything crazy helpful from that.
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The more I think about it the more I think pps is likelier town (with the disclaimer that I have no idea how to read him)
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Teproc is still my gut scumread, so I'll reread him to see if there's scum to be found. First thing to note is that he replaced nkiribit, don't know what to make of that. I think scum is a tiny bit more likely to have themselves replaced due to responsibility for their team, but I wouldn't want to make a case based upon that. I'll just start where Teproc arrived, nkirbit's first posts don't give all that much to analyze.
His first post is some theory which always looks good, and the sheeping of TA with regard to yuma. Later he tries to revive theory talk by pursuing Jimmmmm's rolll 1-5 plan. This goes on for a while, and at the same time he solidifies his scum read on yuma. When AHoppy proposes the vote for plans, he contributes by voting some other strategy (why is that?). He is later the first to oppose my no-lynch plan. This is followed by some more theory thoughts.
Then he argues against PPS, but without voting him. For quite some time after that, Teproc's posts seem to lack substance, which is something I'm not used to. Then there's the very weak case against Jimmmm (being the 4th vote on the Eevee wagon). He later tries to back this up with saying he has a town read on Eevee because of [REDACTED]. Then states a town read on TA because of his analysis post. This strikes my as an easy way to give out town reads.
And that's pretty much it. I think what strikes me as odd here is mainly the lack of content and analysis, because I think Teproc usually does a lot more of that. He is also still voting Jimmmmm, right? And he has not put much effort into convincing people of his scumminess, which I would absolutely expect from town!Teproc.
I am happy with my vote for now.
PPE: 2
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Ok faust. I think your vote on me is reasonable, as I have been lacking content this game.
However, a few things :
- I thought I had made it clear when AHoppy did his theory vote thing, but the rolling numbers plan only works if everyone does it, and people were obviously resistant to it, so I voted for the next best thing, ie the "only cops with results claim".
- the townread on TA is not just because he gave detailed analysis. It's because his analysis can easily be used against him if we lynch Eevee and he flips town.
- I haven't argued strongly for Jimmmm's lynch, because I don't feel that strongly about it, unfortunately. I have no good scum read this game, which is why I've been fairly useless. I didn't want to qualify my vote like that because it greatly reduces the utility of voting someone when you act unsure about it, but it doesn't look like people want to lynch Jimmmmm anyway, so there.
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Teproc, vote for AHoppy then!
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So if TA were to flip scum would you assume or just lean towards me being town?
No, I did not say if and only if. I just said if TA is town, you are more likely scum.
Well, I guess what I am asking is whether or not you perceive the inverse to be true.
Oh, no I don't think it is. I could see it being a set-up between both of you as well. I don't think that that's super likely from this standpoint given that we don't know yet whether either of you are scum, but if he were to flip scum, I would still think there is decent chance you are scum (greater than the 2/12 chance it would be at that point, at least).
I am also trying to assess whether/how much I am biased against players with high post count, since the three people I was considering voting for were three of the top four posters. I don't really see Eevee as being scummy at all, but maybe it's just that he hasn't said much?
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Teproc, vote for AHoppy then!
I'm going to reread the thread tomorrow or tonight and see where I stand on everyone. You're voting for him because of PoE right ? Or is there something more ?
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Teproc, vote for AHoppy then!
I'm going to reread the thread tomorrow or tonight and see where I stand on everyone. You're voting for him because of PoE right ? Or is there something more ?
I'm voting him because there's no reason not to, basically. So yes, D1 POE.
The full line of thinking is that top posters are usually town and/or scum who are creating a track record that will hang themselves later. I also considered who was voting/getting the game moving, a town goal.
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And if you like traditional D1 voting (I don't), his summary post "smells" scummy.
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So, I'm trying to figure out who I could switch my vote to, and I'm not seeing many good options.
Jimmmmm - this is pretty null, and I do not see a good reason for a vote right now.
AHoppy - lurky for sure. But he has been that way in the only other game I've played with him (M31), and was town there. Should definitely get in here and tell us his thoughts though.
Robz888 - usual D1 lurker!Robz, I'd like to keep him around for now.
Twistedarcher - active and pushing the game along. Not lynching yet.
Archetype - the way he started this game gave me a town read, now he's lurking as he does as either alignment.
Voltaire - also active and has some good contributions. Should be left alive for now.
yuma - don't know. I guess I always have a tendency to think he's scum. But there's nothing particularly scummy about his play.
chairs - forgot about the game, and seems to forget about it again. But that's what he does as town.
Eevee - everything that happened left me with a null read. I like to think that there was some scum involved in the whole Eevee/Teproc/yuma/TA discussion though.
faust - me.
scott_pilgrim - newbie, let's let him live.
pingpongsam - even though he seems so scummy to me, ultimately I arrived at a point where I think scum wouldn't want to expose themselves like that, especially in this game. And pps learned this lesson the hard way in RMM12.
Teproc - scummy, as detailed above.
I have taken more people out of the lynch pool here than I usually would because I would not be unhappy about a no lynch. For those still in the pool, this is my lynch preference:
Teproc
AHoppy
yuma
Jimmmmm
Eevee
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The thing about "traditional" D1 voting is that it creates what you need for PoE to work. I agree that PoE is much more effective in general, but if everyone was doing the same thing as you, I don't think it would be.
My question wasn't a criticism though.
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The thing about "traditional" D1 voting is that it creates what you need for PoE to work. I agree that PoE is much more effective in general, but if everyone was doing the same thing as you, I don't think it would be.
My question wasn't a criticism though.
Wait, what? We should still do traditional D1 voting. That's why I have the list of who I think was doing that in my earlier post! I suppose I should have said "traditional D1 lynching" earlier.
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Vote: chairs
How could anyone lurk more than I have lurked? I deliberately ignored this game. for like more than a week.
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Deliberately ? Why did you deliberately ignore this game ?
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Because I didn't have time for it, given IRL considerations, the other game and Survivor. That's what I said before.
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Right, I guess I took "deliberately" to mean that it was a part of a strategy or something (like when O tried not to post before he got to L-1, but less extreme). It didn't make much sense to me but I figured I'd ask.
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Gotcha.
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So, like, 1.5 days until deadline and we're not close to a lynch. I really think we need to lynch a lurker.
Vote count please!
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So, like, 1.5 days until deadline and we're not close to a lynch. I really think we need to lynch a lurker.
Vote count please!
Then vote for Eevee!
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So, like, 1.5 days until deadline and we're not close to a lynch. I really think we need to lynch a lurker.
Vote count please!
Then vote for Eevee!
I don't think he's the right lurker to lynch!
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So, like, 1.5 days until deadline and we're not close to a lynch. I really think we need to lynch a lurker.
Vote count please!
Then vote for Eevee!
I don't think he's the right lurker to lynch!
....
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CHairs! Make it chairs.
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Robz888 (1): pingpongsam
Twistedarcher (2): Eevee, chairs, scott_p
Eevee (4): Twistedarcher, Archetype, yuma, Jimmmmm
AHoppy (1): Voltaire
Jimmmm (1): Teproc
Teproc (1): faust
chairs (1): Robz
Not Voting (1): Ahoppy
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What's the case on Eevee, aside from what TA presented (which is not convincing to me)?
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Twistedarcher : 66 (we'll take him out for post count AND for helping move the game forward, if he's scum he'll trip up later, and it'd be horrible to lynch one of town's biggest contributor if that's the case)
yuma : 56
Jimmmmm : 50
pingpongsam : 44
faust : 43
Voltaire : 43
nkirbit/Teproc : 41
{cut-off}
Eevee : 16
Archetype : 15
AHoppy : 13
scott_pilgrim : 11
Robz : 11
chairs : 8
....
and I'm left with a lynch pool that looks like this, in order:
AHoppy
Archetype
Teproc
pps
Jimmmmm
(edits done to the post above for clarity)
Voltaire, look at where you are leaving us though....
You say you want a lurker lynch and then remove four of the lurkers from contention! (scott, Robz, chairs and Eevee)... leaving only archetype and ahoppy! Now I agree with scott (newbie... and chairs due to him forgetting about the game, which I do think reads more townie)...
So why dont' you just say you want to lynch archetype or ahoppy directly...?
But you can't say "I just want a lurker lynch!" and then remove four of the lurkers from your pool and expect us to be ok with that....
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What's the case on Eevee, aside from what TA presented (which is not convincing to me)?
he's a lurker. That is enough. You can't make a case on a lurker, there isn't enough to "make a huge case". Hence why we are voting for him. There a few things, but that is the whole point of lurking as scum... you can't say things that will get you in trouble.
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Fine, "let's lynch AHoppy or Archetype." Is that phrased to your liking?
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What's the case on Eevee, aside from what TA presented (which is not convincing to me)?
he's a lurker. That is enough. You can't make a case on a lurker, there isn't enough to "make a huge case". Hence why we are voting for him. There a few things, but that is the whole point of lurking as scum... you can't say things that will get you in trouble.
Why him above the other lurkers?
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What's the case on Eevee, aside from what TA presented (which is not convincing to me)?
he's a lurker. That is enough. You can't make a case on a lurker, there isn't enough to "make a huge case". Hence why we are voting for him. There a few things, but that is the whole point of lurking as scum... you can't say things that will get you in trouble.
Why him above the other lurkers?
he has four votes, the others have 0 or 1.
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On the reread, Archetype and faust seem like the scummier people to me.
Archetype was here for the theory talk, and then it's just a bunch of safe votes on lurkers.
faust is a little different this game. More agressive, and I just agree less with him in general. Ironically, I think his vote on me is the towniest thing he's done all game. I don't really want to lynch him though, if only because it'd be the fifth time in a row he gets lynched day 1 I think ?
Oh, and I'm a little more confident in my Jimmmmm scumread actually. He was very present for the theory talk, but kind of faded in the background after that. And then I do think his vote on Eevee is scummy.
I'm back to null on yuma, his read on pps is a little weird : he starts by stating a town read, and then finds arguments for it. Might be nothing, but it's a little weird.
I don't think I want to lynch AHoppy. He was pretty consistently the guy trying to get out of the theory talk, which is probably townie. I understand yuma's argument that this is an easy role to take as scum, but AHoppy did it in a way that seemed townie to me.
I don't really have a read on scott_pilgrim but he's new so we won't lynch him anyway, and then everyone else I think is townie for reasons I've already explained (TA, Eevee, Robz, pps). That leaves Voltaire who I haven't commented on, but he seems like his regular town self, so I don't see any reason to lynch him now.
In terms of lynch, here's where I am :
Want to lynch : Jimmmmm, Archetype
Could lynch : AHoppy, yuma, faust
Won't lynch : TA, PPS, Voltaire, Eevee, scott_pilgrim, Robz, chairs
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I guess that first sentence is misleading. They are the ones that my opinion changed on the most while rereading. Obviously I think Jimmmm is scummier than faust still.
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I should be caught up by the end of the day.
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Vote Count 1.5
Robz888 (1): pingpongsam
Twistedarcher (3): Eevee, chairs, scott_pilgrim
Eevee (4): Twistedarcher, Archetype, Jimmmmm, yuma
AHoppy (1): Voltaire
Jimmmmm (1): Teproc
Teproc (1): faust
chairs (1): Robz888
Not Voting (1): AHoppy
With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.
Day 1 ends January 23rd, 12:00 AM.
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Robz arrived to make some posts but he did nothing that indicated to me he was town. He made a few weak attempts at eliciting responses from other players but carefully avoided making any significant reads of his own. Now he latches onto the "lynch the lurkers" movement which is strictly the product of lack of information due to lurking of which he was and AFAIC, still is a prime participant in. What's towny about Robz at all?
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What's towny about Robz at all?
His reverse-meta of being inactive/bad D1 as town.
I would lynch him over no-lynch, but I think he's town right now.
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What's towny about Robz at all?
His reverse-meta of being inactive/bad D1 as town.
I would lynch him over no-lynch, but I think he's town right now.
I just can't believe that you think he is town. Robz knows about his self-meta and has constantly in the past tried to use his self-metas to his advantage as scum. Maybe you don't think he is scum, but at the most I think all you can get out of it is null... but not town. Not given his past.
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What's towny about Robz at all?
His reverse-meta of being inactive/bad D1 as town.
I would lynch him over no-lynch, but I think he's town right now.
I just can't believe that you think he is town. Robz knows about his self-meta and has constantly in the past tried to use his self-metas to his advantage as scum. Maybe you don't think he is scum, but at the most I think all you can get out of it is null... but not town. Not given his past.
They have not been nearly so similar lately as you think. At least not in my mind.
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Alright. Reread the whole thread, but I don't think it's worth my time to make a case on D1 or pull up quotes or anything, so I didn't.
Townie: AHoppy, faust, pingpongsam
Slight Town: Voltaire, Jimmmmm, yuma
Scummy: Eevee
Slight Scum: Twistedarcher, Teproc, Robz888, chairs
Null: Scotty
If scum, Twistedarcher and Eevee aren't partners.
So...
Want to lynch: Eevee, chairs
Don't mind: Robz888, Teproc, Twistedarcher
Don't care (sorry!): Scotty, Jimmmmm
You'd be pulling my arm for their lynch: AHoppy, faust, PPS, yuma, Voltaire
Also, some random info:
When AHoppy posted his poll...
Only Cops should claim: Ahoppy, Teproc, yuma, Jimmmmm, Archetype
When Faust ran his statistic...
No Lynch: faust, scotty, yuma
Very weird D1. A lot of theory talk, and I generally associate like-mind thinking with Towny, so I probably gave out a little too much town cred to people. This isn't Town Eevee, but I'm not 100% sure it's scum Eevee, which is weird too. Chairs would be a policy lynch if anything. He started out as Towny, but him not posting in awhile makes me a bit wary. AHoppy, faust, and PPS are my top townreads, so I don't want to see them lynched. Yuma and Voltaire have been keeping this thread moving, so I don't want to seem them lynched either. Scotty and Jimmmmm I'm not super sure about. Teproc and Twistedarcher are both giving me the same scummy vibe while Robz888 has just been absent.
I think everyone agrees on how Cops should claim the following day, but just in case...
Claim "Mafia" results immediately. Claim "Town" results before your target reaches L-1 or the Day ends.
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What's towny about Robz at all?
His reverse-meta of being inactive/bad D1 as town.
I would lynch him over no-lynch, but I think he's town right now.
I just can't believe that you think he is town. Robz knows about his self-meta and has constantly in the past tried to use his self-metas to his advantage as scum. Maybe you don't think he is scum, but at the most I think all you can get out of it is null... but not town. Not given his past.
They have not been nearly so similar lately as you think. At least not in my mind.
Sorry, I don't quite follow.
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I've got about 5 pages to catch up on, which I'm planning on doing right now. If anything vital is going on right now, let me know.
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Alright. I'm caught up. But nothing really jumps out at me as being super scummy. I don't really like TA's case on Eevee. I mean, I see where he is coming from, but it kinda feels like he is tunneling Eevee, with not a whole lot of great reasoning to back it up. It is probably the most substantiated case, I just don't think the reasoning is sound and I don't think the data was collected fairly (not looking at his town play to see if it really is different). Kinda feels like scum trying to push through an easy mis-lynch making his reasoning look really good with quotes from 2 separate games to back it up. Just smells kinda fishy to me. However, like others have said, I'm not comfortable lynching our top poster, especially considering his early play came across as quite towny to me. This was the biggest thing that stuck out to me as I was catching up. I'm ok with lynching a lurker ('cept me of course). My excuse? As I have said in every game I've played (I believe... correct me if I'm wrong) I really don't like D1. I don't seem to want to give chairs the towncred everyone else does for "forgetting the game", and I have been burned by mislynching Archetype on at least one occasion, and I don't want to axe Eevee because I don't agree with TA's case. Robz seems townier here to me, because I believe he has said himself that he doesn't care as much about the games he plays as town. And that's the vibe I'm getting here. Long story short vote: chairs
I do want to go back and re-read Jimmmm because I don't really remember anything he has done... But it's late, so maybe later. Keeping my eye on him.
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Claim "Mafia" results immediately. Claim "Town" results before your target reaches L-1 or the Day ends.
Not sure I agree on this. If you are going to claim a town result before the Day ends anyway, why wouldn't you just claim it immediately?
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If it comes down to "lynch a lurker" today, count me out. I will not just vote semi-randomly.
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Claim "Mafia" results immediately. Claim "Town" results before your target reaches L-1 or the Day ends.
Not sure I agree on this. If you are going to claim a town result before the Day ends anyway, why wouldn't you just claim it immediately?
Because you'll get half a day worth of natural reactions and information from waiting. Scum doesn't know who you copped.
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Claim "Mafia" results immediately. Claim "Town" results before your target reaches L-1 or the Day ends.
Not sure I agree on this. If you are going to claim a town result before the Day ends anyway, why wouldn't you just claim it immediately?
Because you'll get half a day worth of natural reactions and information from waiting. Scum doesn't know who you copped.
Yes, and you also get half a Day without an IC when you could have one. What information do you think we can get out of waiting? Do you mean those suspecting the target look scummy? Because they don't, if the target got copped, the reason was probably that the new IC did appear scummy.
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Claim "Mafia" results immediately. Claim "Town" results before your target reaches L-1 or the Day ends.
Not sure I agree on this. If you are going to claim a town result before the Day ends anyway, why wouldn't you just claim it immediately?
Because you'll get half a day worth of natural reactions and information from waiting. Scum doesn't know who you copped.
Yes, and you also get half a Day without an IC when you could have one. What information do you think we can get out of waiting? Do you mean those suspecting the target look scummy? Because they don't, if the target got copped, the reason was probably that the new IC did appear scummy.
The effect is indeed stronger when you've found mafia, and every cop should obviously defer to their best judgement, but I personally think the new info is worth the delay. You basically get to see two slightly different days play out, which I think equips town with better tools for solving the puzzle.
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Well, fine. Everyone should just take care that we have enough time to evaluate the information and choose our lynch target accordingly, which might be problematic if the claim comes at the end of the Day. Plus, not claiming immediately gives scum more liberty to time their fakeclaim.
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I think everyone agrees on how Cops should claim the following day, but just in case...
Claim "Mafia" results immediately. Claim "Town" results before your target reaches L-1 or the Day ends.
I disagree. I think you can get more out of a Day than if you just claim immediately.
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I agree with Eevee and Jimmmmm. The way Jimmmmm did it in Chocolate Factory was good I think. That was a scum result, but I think the same reasoning applies with a town result.
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Something came up and I won't be able to get on through deadline, sorry.
Id like to note:
Eevee hasn't really responded to the case.
The disagreements with the case have generally been very vague and unsatisfactory to me. Faust had the most reasonable response (and I'm sorry I couldn't get to the legwork, if someone else could that would be amazing). I strongly disagree with ahoppy's defense, which to be kinda boils down to I made a case on eevee, so I'm tunneling him, so he can't be scum. Seriously, look at ahoppy's response. There's absolutely no defense for the content, he just doesn't basically like how I made the case, but cases are how we catch scum people. You're all floating around in "this person feels scummy to me" land and we now have enough evidence to move into, you know, actual reasons for voting people.
Go back and look at all the lukewarm defenses of eevee, and I hope there will be enough votes on him by deadline. Sorry I won't be around.
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Okay, reading through TA's case again, here is a link to the post:
What I see is you first describing your impression of my town meta, then quoting two posts from my past scum games that both match that meta perfectly, and then saying "and he is appearing like that again". You know, when you vote without reasons, people always ask "why?", so might as well write the reason for your vote in the original post already? Yes, it's often me describing something that's a scum trait for me and voting for someone who is doing that, but what do you want me to do? It's often hard for me to put the reasons for my votes in words (especially as town), and I do get that they might seem vague or generic, but that's much better than giving no reasons at all. (And faking reasons as scum is easy, people see the game so different to each other you can appear convinced about almost anything without seeming too suspect.. one example being the scumminess of Eevee in this game!).
I AM trying to get a feel of this game, which is damn hard when all we talk about is theory and we don't have ashersky around making people chase each others tails.
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Oh and sober AMA, I'd like to answer to all possible questions, got to at least maximize the chance of not getting lynched for the lack of better options.
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Go back and look at all the lukewarm defenses of eevee, and I hope there will be enough votes on him by deadline. Sorry I won't be around.
I don't quite understand this. If you find people's defenses of Eevee vague and unsatisfactory, that should make you suspect them, not Eevee. Do you think you've already called the scum team - Eevee, and the two players defending him, AHoppy and Teproc? I don't think that's the case. But I do think there's reason to suspect Teproc and AHoppy, and maybe you should consider moving your vote to one of those two.
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Eevee, could you remind me again why you are voting TA?
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Eevee, could you remind me again why you are voting TA?
I could as well be not. It's for the lack of stronger scumreads, I generally think is better to have your vote somewhere for reactions, but you can't vote just for reactions, and I haven't seen anything voteworthy since.
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I AM trying to get a feel of this game, which is damn hard when all we talk about is theory and we don't have ashersky around making people chase each others tails.
Alright... add this to your case: I think there has been plenty to talk about in the last few days beside theory and plenty of opprotunity provided by other players do "make people chase each other's tails" but you just aren't participating in it and consisntly using the excuse that today has been a bad day1 to avoid playing the game.... This is the second or third time you have made such a statement and I think it is a false one. Yes, this game started out with theory, but I think we have rebounded out of it very nicely.
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I strongly disagree with ahoppy's defense, which to be kinda boils down to I made a case on eevee, so I'm tunneling him, so he can't be scum.
This was not my case at all. The case probably hasn't been around long enough to call it tunneling. Just to me, as I was reading through, it seemed like every post you made after that was "then vote for eevee!" When other people (I believe yuma) have already expressed that they were not pleased with your case. My "case" as it is is basically faust's case. I liked his post asking you to go look through games where Eevee is town and give us that data. So my case is:
TA presents a convincing argument, backing it up with 3 quotes, 2 from other games that appear similar to this game. His argument, when I first read it shouted "Hey, Eevee looks pretty bad after this"
Faust brings up that Eevee is scum in both of those games, so for all we know, this is also what town!Eevee looks like
The problem with this is you have an attractive argument that does not show that Eevee is not playing his town self.
You have made a rhetorical fallacy and I am not willing to lynch Eevee over it.
This very well could just be an oversight on your part as the researcher, I get that
However, I'm also wary of it because the argument looked so attractive and I would have been willing to lynch Eevee, had faust not alerted me to go back and look at it closer.
It's not enough for me to want to lynch you, more of an FoS. It is however enough to take Eevee out of the pool of lurkers I'm willing to lynch.
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Alright. I'm caught up. But nothing really jumps out at me as being super scummy. I don't really like TA's case on Eevee. I mean, I see where he is coming from, but it kinda feels like he is tunneling Eevee, with not a whole lot of great reasoning to back it up. It is probably the most substantiated case, I just don't think the reasoning is sound and I don't think the data was collected fairly (not looking at his town play to see if it really is different). Kinda feels like scum trying to push through an easy mis-lynch making his reasoning look really good with quotes from 2 separate games to back it up. Just smells kinda fishy to me. However, like others have said, I'm not comfortable lynching our top poster, especially considering his early play came across as quite towny to me. This was the biggest thing that stuck out to me as I was catching up. I'm ok with lynching a lurker ('cept me of course). My excuse? As I have said in every game I've played (I believe... correct me if I'm wrong) I really don't like D1. I don't seem to want to give chairs the towncred everyone else does for "forgetting the game", and I have been burned by mislynching Archetype on at least one occasion, and I don't want to axe Eevee because I don't agree with TA's case. Robz seems townier here to me, because I believe he has said himself that he doesn't care as much about the games he plays as town. And that's the vibe I'm getting here. Long story short vote: chairs
I do want to go back and re-read Jimmmm because I don't really remember anything he has done... But it's late, so maybe later. Keeping my eye on him.
I am willing to vote for ahoppy based off this post
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not that i wasn't willing before, that just kinda makes me actually want to
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Wow, 5 pages. Just finished reading.
Yuma: As I read through these last 5 pages, my answer to your "Do you want to keep your vote on TwistedArcher" went from 'yes' to 'maybe' to 'yes' to 'ehhh, probably not'. The argument for lynching Ahoppy kept getting stronger. Ironic, then, that Ahoppy's recent "caught up" post is a vote for me based on my lurking. Perhaps trying to get out in front of the possibility that I'd vote that direction, and trying to invoke LALL simultaneously?
Ahoppy: I agree that initially I felt TA's case on Eevee felt very much like tunneling. However, I also feel (as you stated in your "Alright. I'm caught up." post) that TA is one of our top posters, which means we'll be able to feel him out later much more easily. Now, you then mention LAL -but- excuse yourself with a simple "I don't like D1"... and then vote for me for lurking on D1. I feel like this is remarkably hypocritical, and exactly the kind of thing I would try to slip under the radar as scum.
vote: Ahoppy.
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So, an AHoppy lynch mob has formed? What is the case on him, exactly? I mean, I guess his chairs vote is sort of fishy, but then again so is chairs' return vote on AHoppy.
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I was leaning towards and AHoppy lynch when Voltaire echoed my sentiments on him. His recent posts have come across rather scummy to me.
His arguments are too soft. He says that TA's case on Eevee is well substantiated but the logic isn't sound but then fails to show any logical failings. Where is this unsoundness he speaks of?
then he commits the same crime that I hold Robz accountable for. The, "well, I know I'm lurky here today but I think we should lynch this other lurker over there".
Finally, he hasn't really responded to any of the slowly building suspicion around him. When I am town my butt gets hurt. When I am scum I'd rather not call attention to suspicions on me but rather be the one casting it.
I still prefer a Robz lynch because I think his actions cannot even begin to be painted as Town. But I am also willing to Vote: AHoppy.
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Wow, 5 pages. Just finished reading.
Yuma: As I read through these last 5 pages, my answer to your "Do you want to keep your vote on TwistedArcher" went from 'yes' to 'maybe' to 'yes' to 'ehhh, probably not'. The argument for lynching Ahoppy kept getting stronger. Ironic, then, that Ahoppy's recent "caught up" post is a vote for me based on my lurking. Perhaps trying to get out in front of the possibility that I'd vote that direction, and trying to invoke LALL simultaneously?
Ahoppy: I agree that initially I felt TA's case on Eevee felt very much like tunneling. However, I also feel (as you stated in your "Alright. I'm caught up." post) that TA is one of our top posters, which means we'll be able to feel him out later much more easily. Now, you then mention LAL -but- excuse yourself with a simple "I don't like D1"... and then vote for me for lurking on D1. I feel like this is remarkably hypocritical, and exactly the kind of thing I would try to slip under the radar as scum.
vote: Ahoppy.
I don't find it hypocritical at all. I feel like I have actively participated in this game, I put out my reads and helped to guide the discussion away from theory. You, on the other hand have not really contributed a whole lot. I see a lot of theory contribution on your part, but not as much once we moved away from that. Also:
Reading through mafiascum games now.
Ever get anything from this?
Also, I'm sorry. I just found your post with the same D1 excuse as me
(for reference)
but I don't really want to lynch any of the other lurkers.
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Sorry, I don't quite follow.
All I am saying is that Robz as scum and Robz as town aren't that similar, in my eyes. I am claiming a better-than-average ability at reading Robz based off meta. Robz would tell you the same thing, he's said it himself.
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His arguments are too soft. He says that TA's case on Eevee is well substantiated but the logic isn't sound but then fails to show any logical failings. Where is this unsoundness he speaks of?
The logical failing is that his conclusion is Eevee is playing like he does as scum, therefore he must be scum! Vote for him!
However, he does not provide proof that Eevee does not play the same as town. So that is not a valid conclusion. I thought I had made that clear in both posts (the original and the one where I reiterated my case) but apparently not.
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The suspicion on me is that I'm a lurker and that something "hasn't felt right" about some of my posts. How do you expect me to respond to that? I always lurk D1. As to responding to gut feelings... I've just ignored them because I can't do anything about people's guts.
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His arguments are too soft. He says that TA's case on Eevee is well substantiated but the logic isn't sound but then fails to show any logical failings. Where is this unsoundness he speaks of?
That TA didn't look at Eevee's town games.
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The suspicion on me is that I'm a lurker and that something "hasn't felt right" about some of my posts. How do you expect me to respond to that? I always lurk D1.
If you are town, this makes the game so very difficult for us. How are you going to show us you're town if all you do is lurk? Unless you want a Robz meta of "that's just what you do", which I find personally frustrating but everyone has their own style of play so whatever.
I do echo yuma's comments that the people who are saying at this point "this day sucked" are strange, because we have had a real D1 now after a slow start. I don't like that either.
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not that i wasn't willing before, that just kinda makes me actually want to
I think that's three votes on AHoppy, with yuma stating intent. Why haven't you voted yet?
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Yeah, I agree that AHoppy's post about TA is very scummy. My first reaction reading it was wanting to vote. Seeing people jump on him makes me feel uneasy, but I do think there's reason for it.
AHoppy, the problem is that you are trying to say that TA's case on Eevee is illogical because he's not looking at Eevee's town!meta, but that simply isn't true. TA has said that he generally thinks Eevee has gut reads as town and that he hasn't had that yet. I happen to disagree with TA, but the way you're trying to discredit his case is a little scummy, in that it looks like you chose to disagree with him, and then tried to scramble together a reasoning supporting that.
In fact, vote: AHoppy. I like that wagon a lot better.
PPE : Yes, this makes four.
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So there's no real argument against AHoppy expect that he lurks? Sorry, that's just not good enough. It it also interesting how barely anyone has responded to my case on Teproc; it makes me more certain that he actually is scum, and scum wants to pervent a late wagon on one of their own by talking about lynching a lurker.
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That Teproc jumps the AHoppy wagon now fits the picture very well.
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So there's no real argument against AHoppy expect that he lurks? Sorry, that's just not good enough. It it also interesting how barely anyone has responded to my case on Teproc; it makes me more certain that he actually is scum, and scum wants to pervent a late wagon on one of their own by talking about lynching a lurker.
Lyching people based on them seeming scummy D1 almost never works! If you agree with my method (even a bit) you have to accept that you'll end up lynching someone that "feels" null.
I'll look at your case on Teproc now.
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unvote wait.
Let's clear this up. AHoppy is making a good point about TA's Eevee case. (one I think he could make as scum or town, but a good point)
Why the hell is anyone voting him for that?
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So there's no real argument against AHoppy expect that he lurks? Sorry, that's just not good enough. It it also interesting how barely anyone has responded to my case on Teproc; it makes me more certain that he actually is scum, and scum wants to pervent a late wagon on one of their own by talking about lynching a lurker.
Lyching people based on them seeming scummy D1 almost never works! If you agree with my method (even a bit) you have to accept that you'll end up lynching someone that "feels" null.
I'll look at your case on Teproc now.
Maybe. But in this game, I want to on lynch over lynching someone that feels null.
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That should read "no lynch".
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Maybe. But in this game, I want to on lynch over lynching someone that feels null.
If that's the case, we'll never agree on anyone today, because I think you'll prefer no lynch to everyone I want to lynch.
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unvote wait.
Let's clear this up. AHoppy is making a good point about TA's Eevee case. (one I think he could make as scum or town, but a good point)
Why the hell is anyone voting him for that?
Teproc and PPS I think are the ones who did this, yes?
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Yeah, faust, i don't like the Teproc case. Nothing he's done has been that egregious, and he's a top poster. I mean, I'll lynch Teproc over no-lynch, but I won't be joining any theoretical wagon on him until the last minute I think.
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Yeah, I agree that AHoppy's post about TA is very scummy. My first reaction reading it was wanting to vote. Seeing people jump on him makes me feel uneasy, but I do think there's reason for it.
Then why didn't you?
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faust, you start your case by saying he's a gut scumread. Did you have that gut read and re-read him to find evidence? If so, I think your case is just confirmation bias. I'm not saying Teproc is town, he's null to me, but I am slowly growing to hate gut reads. I literally don't think any of my gut reads have ever been right. Every time I've ever said "my gut says..." that I can remember it has turned out to have been wrong.
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Yeah, I agree that AHoppy's post about TA is very scummy. My first reaction reading it was wanting to vote. Seeing people jump on him makes me feel uneasy, but I do think there's reason for it.
Then why didn't you?
Nevermind, it seems you haven't posted since then.
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See I have lurked, by not posting a whole lot (especially in the last few days because I have been busy). But I feel like when I have come in, i have brought content to the table. I'm not saying this day has sucked, it has been a lot better than the other D1's I've played. I just find D1 kind of frustrating because everyone else knows a lot more about the other players since I have only played I think 3 games. So I don't get as much from the meta reads D1 and I don't feel confident that I can draw conclusions from other people's metas. I tried earlier with you Volt since I remembered playing with you as town, but I got called out for that... What I'm saying is that I tried to use what I thought was your meta from the one game we played together, and it got shot down.
PPE: 14
wow... 14
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Yeah, I agree that AHoppy's post about TA is very scummy. My first reaction reading it was wanting to vote. Seeing people jump on him makes me feel uneasy, but I do think there's reason for it.
Then why didn't you?
Nevermind, it seems you haven't posted since then.
Yep.
@Voltaire : I don't think it's a good argument is why. It seems like it is, but it really isn't. He is imlying that TA is not taking Eevee's town meta in consideration when, based on earlier posts, he clearly is.
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So I currently think that AHoppy is a good lynch, but am weirded out by PPS and Teproc's reasons for joining the wagon. That's where I am.
@Teproc - but he's not taking them into account in a non-gut way, right? That's the whole point. I had the exact same reaction to TA's case but someone else had already pointed it out by the time I was reading the thread.
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faust, you start your case by saying he's a gut scumread. Did you have that gut read and re-read him to find evidence? If so, I think your case is just confirmation bias. I'm not saying Teproc is town, he's null to me, but I am slowly growing to hate gut reads. I literally don't think any of my gut reads have ever been right. Every time I've ever said "my gut says..." that I can remember it has turned out to have been wrong.
Well, there could be confirmation bias, sure. Yes, I already felt he could be scum before the reread, why would I reread him if not? But I'm used to Teproc with good content, here the actual content that Teproc posted is roughly on the level of AHoppy's contributions. Also, just because your gut reads are often wrong, that doesn't necessarily implicate that those of other players are wrong as well.
Of course I'm not completely sold on the Teproc wagon. But I wanted to look for support before moving my vote off there.
PPE: 3
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Sorry, I don't quite follow.
All I am saying is that Robz as scum and Robz as town aren't that similar, in my eyes. I am claiming a better-than-average ability at reading Robz based off meta. Robz would tell you the same thing, he's said it himself.
Oh... sure, I don't really doubt you there. But I guess my question for you right now is: do you want to save Robz for later because you will be able to read him better day2 and onward? Or do you feel like you can read him better right now, today, Day1 with his only having X amount of posts? Because I used to be in that crowd of always saving Robz for later, but honestly some recent games (specifically Toy Story) left me doubting my own ability in that regard.
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AHoppy's recent posts read very genuine to me, I won't vote for him. I have to leave soon and cannot promise to be back before the deadline. If I don't see any support for a Teproc wagon until I leave, I'll probably vote chairs.
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But I'm used to Teproc with good content, here the actual content that Teproc posted is roughly on the level of AHoppy's contributions.
I'm re-reading Teproc, and I just don't see this.
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Sorry, I don't quite follow.
All I am saying is that Robz as scum and Robz as town aren't that similar, in my eyes. I am claiming a better-than-average ability at reading Robz based off meta. Robz would tell you the same thing, he's said it himself.
Oh... sure, I don't really doubt you there. But I guess my question for you right now is: do you want to save Robz for later because you will be able to read him better day2 and onward? Or do you feel like you can read him better right now, today, Day1 with his only having X amount of posts? Because I used to be in that crowd of always saving Robz for later, but honestly some recent games (specifically Toy Story) left me doubting my own ability in that regard.
I do not want to save him for later. A piece of me agrees with Voltgloss in whatever game he went "Let's lynch Robz D1, he's ok as town and amazing as scum". I am saying I currently have a town read on him, not a "let's leave him for later" read. Because if you leave Robz for later, he's probably already gotten his tentacles in everywhere and taken control. Scum of the year, y'know.
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AHoppy's recent posts read very genuine to me, I won't vote for him. I have to leave soon and cannot promise to be back before the deadline. If I don't see any support for a Teproc wagon until I leave, I'll probably vote chairs.
What about Archetype?
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Wow. I feel like I've been lurking badly in this game, and I'm the third highest poster?? In your last sentence I saw my name and thought you must be naming inactive players. Obviously something needs to get this game going.
You were crazy-active at the start and now you've fallen off the map.
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AHoppy's recent posts read very genuine to me, I won't vote for him. I have to leave soon and cannot promise to be back before the deadline. If I don't see any support for a Teproc wagon until I leave, I'll probably vote chairs.
What about Archetype?
I have a town read on Archetype.
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AHoppy's recent posts read very genuine to me, I won't vote for him. I have to leave soon and cannot promise to be back before the deadline. If I don't see any support for a Teproc wagon until I leave, I'll probably vote chairs.
What about Archetype?
I have a town read on Archetype.
Why?
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AHoppy's recent posts read very genuine to me, I won't vote for him. I have to leave soon and cannot promise to be back before the deadline. If I don't see any support for a Teproc wagon until I leave, I'll probably vote chairs.
What about Archetype?
I have a town read on Archetype.
Why?
The way he approached the start of this Day. I don't think scum!Archetype would come out with a plan like that.
Vote: chairs I have to leave now.
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not that i wasn't willing before, that just kinda makes me actually want to
I think that's three votes on AHoppy, with yuma stating intent. Why haven't you voted yet?
Well at the time of writing my quote above Ahoppy only had 1 vote on him compared to eevee with 4 (as chair's and PPS's came after this post and I hadn't been online since....) That has obviously changed since then as I am reading this, but let me catch up all the way before I decide to move my vote...
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AHoppy's recent posts read very genuine to me, I won't vote for him. I have to leave soon and cannot promise to be back before the deadline. If I don't see any support for a Teproc wagon until I leave, I'll probably vote chairs.
I would support it, over chairs!
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AHoppy's recent posts read very genuine to me, I won't vote for him. I have to leave soon and cannot promise to be back before the deadline. If I don't see any support for a Teproc wagon until I leave, I'll probably vote chairs.
I would support it, over chairs!
You haven't made your case on me yet, have you ?
Not an accusation btw, just making sure I didn't miss something.
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AHoppy's recent posts read very genuine to me, I won't vote for him. I have to leave soon and cannot promise to be back before the deadline. If I don't see any support for a Teproc wagon until I leave, I'll probably vote chairs.
What about Archetype?
I have a town read on Archetype.
Why?
The way he approached the start of this Day. I don't think scum!Archetype would come out with a plan like that.
Vote: chairs I have to leave now.
You don't? It was a plan to out our cops to the mafia, of course scum would try to get us to do that/make it look like a town idea.
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AHoppy's recent posts read very genuine to me, I won't vote for him. I have to leave soon and cannot promise to be back before the deadline. If I don't see any support for a Teproc wagon until I leave, I'll probably vote chairs.
I would support it, over chairs!
You haven't made your case on me yet, have you ?
Not an accusation btw, just making sure I didn't miss something.
No, I haven't... If I decide that I actually want to vote for you (over say... Ahoppy or Eevee at this point... maybe others?), I'll go back and put a little something together, but I don't have the time to be putting cases together on people I am not voting for.
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Here's a current vote count, since things are happening :
Eevee (4): Twistedarcher, Archetype, Jimmmmm, yuma
AHoppy (3): chairs, pingpongsam, Teproc
chairs (3): Robz, AHoppy, faust
Twistedarcher (2): Eevee, scott_pilgrim
Not voting (1) : Voltaire
With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch
Day 1 ends January 23rd, 12:00 AM, so in 24 hours.
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Day 1 ends January 23rd, 12:00 AM, so in 24 hours.
No, in 12 hours. The day ends when the forum clock hits 1/23.
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Oh, I see. We don't go by AM/PM here (11 PM is 23:00) so I always get that confused.
That's a little close for my taste, but we have actual wagons now, so we should be ok.
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At this point I far prefer Ahoppy and Eevee to TA and chairs, like those two are near the top of my not lynch list. I think only PPS would be higher than those two
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And what about Teproc?
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And what about Teproc?
I would probably vote for him, pending going back and looking at stuff and making sure that everything I remember is what I remember... but 1. he has zero votes on him now 2. his main proponent of his lynch is voting elsewhere and isn't likely to be back. If people are really interested in Teproc and want me to put some stuff together (like they think they might want to vote for him) I'll, put it together, but I have the feeling that isn't going to happen so is probably best left for another day.
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I am honestly cooling on AHoppy, never wanted to vote for Eevee, won't vote TA/chairs/PPS, so I'd like to hear a non-faust case on him. At this point I'll vote AHoppy of the people with votes but I'm not feeling great about it.
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I'm in a similar position Voltaire (as in : I really don't want to lynch TA/chairs, and to a lesser extent Eevee), but why are you cooling on AHoppy ? Is it just because you find some votes (PPS and me) on him scummy ?
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I'm in a similar position Voltaire (as in : I really don't want to lynch TA/chairs, and to a lesser extent Eevee), but why are you cooling on AHoppy ? Is it just because you find some votes (PPS and me) on him scummy ?
Also found his reaction genuine, as faust commented.
There's been one case on you and I didn't like it, but you're still in my "pool" (so to speak) so I want to see what yuma has on you. I very well could go back to AHoppy.
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Want to Lynch: Robz or AHoppy
Would Lynch: chairs (I get the case on him but I'm not feeling a scum vibe but probably because he mostly lurks which I think scum!chairs would not do)
Have no good reason to lynch: Jimmmmm, scott_pilgrim, Eevee
Will not lynch today: TA, Voltaire, faust, Teproc, yuma, archetype (just because he deserves to make it past D1 someday)
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Voltaire, how do you think Ahoppy is acting in relation to Mafia 31? You were masons with him there.
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Voltaire, how do you think Ahoppy is acting in relation to Mafia 31? You were masons with him there.
He never came under pressure, I did. Well that's not true, he came under pressure as the last-minute lurker lynch D1, but I don't think he was around to defend himself. I defended him instead.
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Also, in case anyone is confused, we weren't actually masons (masons are two players who know each other are town and can talk to each other). We were Best Friends (we knew we were town, but could not talk outside of the game thread at any time).
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MMk.
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Alright then:
Teproc....
- Ok... my first initial impression of Teproc was that he was coming into the game using the "angry, contentious townie" impression that is very easy for scum to fall back on. Comes in and just is really against everything that is going on, from the current status of theory talk (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9946.msg335656#msg335656), to the current wagons. (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9946.msg335426#msg335426) It is certainly one I have taken in the past (Wibbly Wobbely in regard to Volt's lynch day1 for example...)
- He didn't do much hunting at all early. He had a vote on me and then just talked theory for a really long time. Eventually he sat down on a vote on chairs (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9946.msg336269#msg336269) for not contributing. The vote wasn't too important to me, although it was indicative of how he was approaching the game... just kinda talking theory and realized he wasn't hunting and so went for an easy target? But instead it was what happened after as chairs had just made his "I forgot about the game" moment. Voltaire pointed it out and Teproc responded (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9946.msg336358#msg336358) very passively. Kinda like an "Oopps... that was silly of me, hope no one notices..."
- Next he moves a vote to Jimmmmm (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9946.msg336814#msg336814) but what is important here isnt' the vote on Jimmmm it is how he is responding to the votes on eevee... he says "I don't like Jimmm's vote at all though. The fourth vote is what makes it a wagon, and I don't think Eevee is a good wagon because of his relative lurkiness" which wasn't that basically the same reason he voted for chairs earlier. So one is a wagon he is willing to start, but the second is a wagon that he isn't? What is the difference? I think the wagons or the people aren't different (except for of course, the fact that some people found chairs to be townie because of his moment, but that is beside the point) instead the difference is how Teproc wants to approach it. I think scum nowadays wants to be the ones creating the wagons. They want to be in control and then attack those who are creating the wagons. And I think that is what Teproc is doing here (faust originally brought up this idea). He sees a wagon... I don't know the alignment of eevee so it is on town or a scum partner?.... and takes it down and tries to get a wagon started on a player that is on it... Jimmmm. To expound on this, he says his reason for voting Jimmm (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9946.msg336824#msg336824) is because he disagrees with Jimmmm's read. Disagreeing with reads doesn't indicate scummy. Scummy is scummy. Disagreeing is a convenient way to make it look like someone is scummy.
So those are the things that had stuck out to me as I was reading them as they came through. The first two I don't think are that significant in a sense. They are more what I would term "gut feels" even though I hate that terminology. To explain it, they are some of the things that I look for scum to be doing that make me want to look closer at a person... Kinda makes me want to keep my eye on them as town can do them as well (well town can do anything scum can do because the scum playing on here of late is exceptionally good I think) so they are more just triggers that make me think teproc has a chance of being scum, but don't necessarily make me think he is scum.
The third I think is potentially more important. As it shows a difference in how teproc is approaching different wagons and the difference depends on what he wants to get out of it. Also I think the excuse to find Jimmmm scummy because he disagrees with a read is weak excuse for his vote.
So maybe not enough to vote for, but like I said, I would be willing, especially compared to TA and chairs....
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Well, I tihnk the lynch I am supporting is a pretty lazy, though not without merit one. Really not sure who I prefer. I won't vote for Eevee. I would vote for yuma, the case he's pushing against me doesn't seem like something he would truly think as town. But it seems pointless trying to get that going right now.
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Well, I tihnk the lynch I am supporting is a pretty lazy, though not without merit one.
Yup.
OK, yuma's points on Teproc are reasonable, but like he says, not voting reasons.
yuma feels bad to my gut, but you know what we say to our guts. Not today.
vote: AHoppy That's four again I believe.
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Oh I actually kind of like yuma's case on Teproc though.
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Ahoppy seems like even more of settling lynch than chairs--unless there's something I've missed (very likely there is, having not read the whole thread).
Vote: Teproc ?
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Well, I tihnk the lynch I am supporting is a pretty lazy, though not without merit one. Really not sure who I prefer. I won't vote for Eevee. I would vote for yuma, the case he's pushing against me doesn't seem like something he would truly think as town. But it seems pointless trying to get that going right now.
How far back are you reading this? I am not currently pushing for your lynch... although I was curious about voltiare having a strong town read on you....
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Ahoppy seems like even more of settling lynch than chairs--unless there's something I've missed (very likely there is, having not read the whole thread).
Vote: Teproc ?
That's the entire point, there isn't.
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Stuff happened, and it seems I can stick around for a little longer. Which is good, because I see some support for a Teproc lynch right there. So I can change my vote back to vote: Teproc.
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Well, I tihnk the lynch I am supporting is a pretty lazy, though not without merit one. Really not sure who I prefer. I won't vote for Eevee. I would vote for yuma, the case he's pushing against me doesn't seem like something he would truly think as town. But it seems pointless trying to get that going right now.
How far back are you reading this? I am not currently pushing for your lynch... although I was curious about voltiare having a strong town read on you....
I know you're not, but I thought you accusing me of meta manipulation here was such a reach, uncharacteristic of town!you.
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Well, I tihnk the lynch I am supporting is a pretty lazy, though not without merit one. Really not sure who I prefer. I won't vote for Eevee. I would vote for yuma, the case he's pushing against me doesn't seem like something he would truly think as town. But it seems pointless trying to get that going right now.
How far back are you reading this? I am not currently pushing for your lynch... although I was curious about voltiare having a strong town read on you....
I know you're not, but I thought you accusing me of meta manipulation here was such a reach, uncharacteristic of town!you.
Really? I am pretty sure I have accused you of doing the same before... successfully in some cases, might I add. Back to Basics is the most obvious. Where I hypothesized that you were using an "angry meta" early which at the time was more of a town!Robz meta and it turned out that you were.... well not that you were faking your meta, but that you were capitalizing on it for you own benefit which is how the best meta manipulation works...
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So, yuma's case on me :
Not much I can say to 1 and 2, but I feel like my reaction to the Eevee wagon is being misinterpreted here. If I understand correctly what yuma is saying, it is weird for me to be against the Eevee wagon when I was voting for chairs earlier ? Because they're both wagons on lurkers ?
Well to that I'll answer that chairs and Eevee aren't the same person. chairs lurking could be scummy, I don't know, I only have experience with him as scum. I know Eevee is (in my experience at least) somewhat of a lurker on day 1 in both alignments.
I feel like I'm maybe misreading though ? Because it doesn't seem like a big contradiction to me.
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*I mean I only have experience with chairs as town.
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I feel like I'm maybe misreading though ? Because it doesn't seem like a big contradiction to me.
It actually is, you don't like the Eevee wagon because it's on a lurker, then you vote chairs who is a lurker. That's what needs explaining.
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The reason I don't like the Eevee wagon isn't because it's on a lurker. It's because Eevee lurking isn't indicative of him being scum, and the way in which he lurked this game looks town!Eevee to me.
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Well, I tihnk the lynch I am supporting is a pretty lazy, though not without merit one. Really not sure who I prefer. I won't vote for Eevee. I would vote for yuma, the case he's pushing against me doesn't seem like something he would truly think as town. But it seems pointless trying to get that going right now.
How far back are you reading this? I am not currently pushing for your lynch... although I was curious about voltiare having a strong town read on you....
I know you're not, but I thought you accusing me of meta manipulation here was such a reach, uncharacteristic of town!you.
Really? I am pretty sure I have accused you of doing the same before... successfully in some cases, might I add. Back to Basics is the most obvious. Where I hypothesized that you were using an "angry meta" early which at the time was more of a town!Robz meta and it turned out that you were.... well not that you were faking your meta, but that you were capitalizing on it for you own benefit which is how the best meta manipulation works...
I don't remember that game at all. Can't even number it...
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Well, I tihnk the lynch I am supporting is a pretty lazy, though not without merit one. Really not sure who I prefer. I won't vote for Eevee. I would vote for yuma, the case he's pushing against me doesn't seem like something he would truly think as town. But it seems pointless trying to get that going right now.
How far back are you reading this? I am not currently pushing for your lynch... although I was curious about voltiare having a strong town read on you....
I know you're not, but I thought you accusing me of meta manipulation here was such a reach, uncharacteristic of town!you.
Really? I am pretty sure I have accused you of doing the same before... successfully in some cases, might I add. Back to Basics is the most obvious. Where I hypothesized that you were using an "angry meta" early which at the time was more of a town!Robz meta and it turned out that you were.... well not that you were faking your meta, but that you were capitalizing on it for you own benefit which is how the best meta manipulation works...
I don't remember that game at all. Can't even number it...
It was my first game after coming back. Yuma is correct. You played up being angry at the reset since you'd rolled scum the first time (and the second time, it turned out) and pretended that you were upset to now be town.
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Okay whatever, I don't really think that's like meta manipulation, other than just being scum.
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It was my first game after coming back. Yuma is correct. You played up being angry at the reset since you'd rolled scum the first time (and the second time, it turned out) and pretended that you were upset to now be town.
I don't think he pretended to be angry (as I think he actually was as it was a crappy situation to be in to be scum, start the game and then have to start over), but rather that he played it up and used that anger to his own benefit.
My thought was that he was doing the same here. Not making up the VLA, but using it to his advantage.
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Wow, 5 pages. Just finished reading.
Yuma: As I read through these last 5 pages, my answer to your "Do you want to keep your vote on TwistedArcher" went from 'yes' to 'maybe' to 'yes' to 'ehhh, probably not'. The argument for lynching Ahoppy kept getting stronger. Ironic, then, that Ahoppy's recent "caught up" post is a vote for me based on my lurking. Perhaps trying to get out in front of the possibility that I'd vote that direction, and trying to invoke LALL simultaneously?
Ahoppy: I agree that initially I felt TA's case on Eevee felt very much like tunneling. However, I also feel (as you stated in your "Alright. I'm caught up." post) that TA is one of our top posters, which means we'll be able to feel him out later much more easily. Now, you then mention LAL -but- excuse yourself with a simple "I don't like D1"... and then vote for me for lurking on D1. I feel like this is remarkably hypocritical, and exactly the kind of thing I would try to slip under the radar as scum.
vote: Ahoppy.
I don't find it hypocritical at all. I feel like I have actively participated in this game, I put out my reads and helped to guide the discussion away from theory. You, on the other hand have not really contributed a whole lot. I see a lot of theory contribution on your part, but not as much once we moved away from that. Also:
Reading through mafiascum games now.
Ever get anything from this?
Also, I'm sorry. I just found your post with the same D1 excuse as me
(for reference)
but I don't really want to lynch any of the other lurkers.
Ahoppy: I honestly didn't garner any particularly useful data from mafiascum. It kind of boiled down to "this one is balanced enough that social deduction is the name of the game" - didn't look like there were any fun plans that worked out particularly well/poorly, etc.
As far as contributing to the game, I'm afraid there hasn't been much that I've really gone "yes, this sparks an opinion in me" to contribute with, for reasons that I assume are fairly similar to yours - D1 just doesn't have the context of a flip to give us anything to run with. I will say that, intriguingly, the wagons drawn up on you and on myself are giving us some very good data to fall back on in D2, because people are giving out reasons - and it's those reasons that give us those beautiful "A-ha!" moments that lead us to scum :D.
If we didn't have such a strong "mislynch Archetype" meta on f.ds, I'd be inclined to vote him - the arguments I've seen for his plan being an attempt to bait cops into claiming early for scum to snatch them aren't compelling, but for a D1 vote they're better than naught. As you'll note when I went through theory talk myself, I ultimately reached the conclusion that there's really no "solid plan" other than that a Cop with results should claim those results at some point prior to Day end.
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unvote This is not how scum behaves when one of their own is about to be lynched.
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So instead I'll vote: Archetype.
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unvote This is not how scum behaves when one of their own is about to be lynched.
I was kinda feeling the same thing... well more along the lines of "I feel pretty good about all three lynch candidates... and that never happens..."
So do you think that all three are town? Or is it more possible that all three are sitting at about the same place... 3-4 votes mafia feels it is in a place where it is best to kinda wait and see what happens if their partner moves to 5 or 6 votes and then move somewhere else?
I guess I would probably lean with you that mafia wouldn't just sit and wait, so maybe that means that everyone I find scummy isn't... that is a depressing thought.
To be honest I just don't want to lynch archetype. He always gets lynched and honestly I feel bad for him. The last time I tried to do this we lynched him anyways day2 in Toy Story..... For me to lynch him he would have to do something like he did in your RMM game that was bizarre enough to get lynched I think (this probably isn't optimal way to play if Arch is in fact scum, but sometimes emotions and such are stronger than the desire to win...)
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So do you think that all three are town? Or is it more possible that all three are sitting at about the same place... 3-4 votes mafia feels it is in a place where it is best to kinda wait and see what happens if their partner moves to 5 or 6 votes and then move somewhere else?
One of those two, and I have no idea how to tell the difference.
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So do you think that all three are town? Or is it more possible that all three are sitting at about the same place... 3-4 votes mafia feels it is in a place where it is best to kinda wait and see what happens if their partner moves to 5 or 6 votes and then move somewhere else?
One of those two, and I have no idea how to tell the difference.
I dont either...
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With three wagons available (well, more than that if you count TA and me), I don't think scum would be sweating that much if one of them was in there.
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With three wagons available (well, more than that if you count TA and me), I don't think scum would be sweating that much if one of them was in there.
I guess. What's the vote count? Can we please get an official vote count? I never know where the votes are in this game.
I thought AHoppy was clearly the top wagon, and he'd stalled.
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He was at 4 votes, then you unvoted, voted again, then unvoted. Eevee has been sitting at 4 votes forever. The wagon on chairs got to 3 but then Robz and faust moved on to me.
This is where we are if I'm not mistaken :
Eevee (4) : Twistedarcher, Archetype, Jimmmmm, yuma
Ahoppy (3) : chairs, pingpongsam, Teproc
Teproc (2) : Robz, faust
Twistedarcher (2) : Eevee, scott_pilgrim
chairs (1) : Ahoppy
Archetype (1) : Voltaire
With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.
Day 1 ends January 23rd 12:00 AM
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So yeah, the AHoppy wagon had the most momentum, but I think I wouldn't freak out until a fifth vote if AHoppy was my scumbuddy.
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vote: AHoppy then, I guess? My "process" must not be working, it didn't cause nearly enough waves and everyone more-or-less agreed with it.
I would still switch to Archetype. Jimmmmm has disappeared btw (though I took him to be town based on his early play). I'd lynch Teproc over no-lynch. Heck, I'll even vote Robz if I have to.
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Here's a quick reads list from me, as I avoid work.
Eevee -- slight town
Twistedarcher -- null
Archetype -- null
Jimmmmm -- slight town
yuma -- null, but not a preferred D1 lynch
Ahoppy -- null to slight scum
chairs -- obv!town 8)
pingpongsam -- town.
Teproc -- null
Robz -- slight scum, though to be fair Robz always feels scummy to me.
faust -- null
scott_pilgrim -- null
Voltaire -- null (some may wonder why not town, but even scum!Volt plays up his towny meta)
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Yeah no nothing is happening, something is very wrong.
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I would be okay with lynching either Eevee or Ahoppy, I think I slightly prefer Ahoppy.
vote: Ahoppy
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Five on AHoppy then I think.
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Vote Count 1.6
Twistedarcher (1): Eevee
Eevee (4): Twistedarcher, Archetype, Jimmmmm, yuma [L-3]
AHoppy (5): chairs, pingpongsam, Teproc, Voltaire, scott_pilgrim [L-2]
chairs (1): AHoppy
Teproc (2): Robz888, faust
With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.
Day 1 ends January 23rd, 12:00 AM. That's in seven hours. I might not be around quite at that time, but maybe an hour later or something.
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I'll be touch and go for next few hours but I should be around for at least an hour within 2 hours of deadline.
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Vote Count 1.6
Twistedarcher (1): Eevee
Eevee (4): Twistedarcher, Archetype, Jimmmmm, yuma [L-3]
AHoppy (5): chairs, pingpongsam, Teproc, Voltaire, scott_pilgrim [L-2]
Well I will vote: Ahoppy. That is L-1. I would strongly suggest intent to hammer be stated before hammering and at the least see if Ahoppy has anything to say...
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Intent to hammer.
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Ahoppy seems like even more of settling lynch than chairs--unless there's something I've missed (very likely there is, having not read the whole thread).
?
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unvote until Robz puts his thoughts on the record about AHoppy.
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Ahoppy seems like even more of settling lynch than chairs--unless there's something I've missed (very likely there is, having not read the whole thread).
?
unvote
PPE: voltaire thinking the same thing.
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I mean it's like him or no one at this point.
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Thoughts, it's a lynch, we want to lynch, and there's no reason not to lynch Ahoppy. I don't have a strong preference, except I'd rather not lynch Eevee, the only person I've been able to develop much of a read on.
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And Eevee is the other wagon (and there's not enough traction for Teproc or chairs). So don't know why the surprise.
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And Eevee is the other wagon (and there's not enough traction for Teproc or chairs). So don't know why the surprise.
I mean it's like him or no one at this point.
Because these statements are not true. I'm pretty sure we could lynch someone other than AHoppy or Eevee if we wanted to.
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And Eevee is the other wagon (and there's not enough traction for Teproc or chairs). So don't know why the surprise.
I mean it's like him or no one at this point.
Because these statements are not true. I'm pretty sure we could lynch someone other than AHoppy or Eevee if we wanted to.
I agree... vote: robz anyone?
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Really? It doesn't seem like we can.
I mean normally yes, but this game it doesn't seem like there are ever very many people around at the same time. I seriously doubt anyone can be lynched other than Ahoppy or Eevee, based on the activity up to this point. And I prefer Ahoppy.
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And Eevee is the other wagon (and there's not enough traction for Teproc or chairs). So don't know why the surprise.
I mean it's like him or no one at this point.
Because these statements are not true. I'm pretty sure we could lynch someone other than AHoppy or Eevee if we wanted to.
I agree... vote: robz anyone?
vote: Robz
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Vote: Robz
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Okay...
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Interesting... I like the AHoppy lynch better, but Robz is a better lynch than Eevee, chairs or myself.
Note : I definitely won't be around for the deadline. I'll hang around for an hour or so and then I'm off to sleep.
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Well now it really has to be Vote: Ahoppy
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Intent to hammer.
Vote: Robz
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INSANITY
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Funny how Robz's "semi-random last minute lurker lynch" idea from Chocolate Factory might be tested against him !
I still like AHoppy better, Robz hasn't done anything scummy in my eyes. I don't find his intent to hammer particularly scummy here. I would have done the same.
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We're at four votes on both Robz and AHoppy right now, fyi.
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Which is virtually 5 on Robz, since AHoppy will certainly vote for him for self-preservation alone.
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unvote that was fun and nice to serve a point, but I do prefer eevee, ahoppy and teproc over Robz...
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I still won't vote for AHoppy. Well, unless it's needed to avoid a No Lynch (sorry pal).
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unvote that was fun and nice to serve a point, but I do prefer eevee, ahoppy and teproc over Robz...
Really? Why?
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I still like AHoppy better, Robz hasn't done anything scummy in my eyes. I don't find his intent to hammer particularly scummy here. I would have done the same.
Even though AHoppy hadn't given his thoughts yet?
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and to be honest, I think Robz did fully believe that ahoppy and eevee were the lynches of choice... and I don't really like voting based off this type of "contradictions" which is what this was in regard to Robz...
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I still like AHoppy better, Robz hasn't done anything scummy in my eyes. I don't find his intent to hammer particularly scummy here. I would have done the same.
Even though AHoppy hadn't given his thoughts yet?
It was INTENT to hammer. Incentive for Ahoppy to give his thoughts. I wasn't going to hammer him until he did, or if it appeared like he wasn't going to, obviously.
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I still like AHoppy better, Robz hasn't done anything scummy in my eyes. I don't find his intent to hammer particularly scummy here. I would have done the same.
Even though AHoppy hadn't given his thoughts yet?
But that's why you state intent to hammer, not hammer.
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What Robz said. If he didn't want AHoppy to give his thoughts he would just have hammered.
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I still like AHoppy better, Robz hasn't done anything scummy in my eyes. I don't find his intent to hammer particularly scummy here. I would have done the same.
Even though AHoppy hadn't given his thoughts yet?
It was INTENT to hammer. Incentive for Ahoppy to give his thoughts. I wasn't going to hammer him until he did, or if it appeared like he wasn't going to, obviously.
Oh. I thought you were saying you'd lynch him regardless of whether he spoke or not. My mistake. Back to Vote: Eevee.
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Update vote count because things are crazy !
Ahoppy (4) : chairs, Teproc, scott_pilgrim, Robz
Eevee (3) : Twistedarcher, Jimmmmm, Archetype
Robz (2) : Voltaire, pingpongsam
Teproc (1) : faust
Twistedarcher (1) : Eevee
chairs (1) : Ahoppy
Not voting (1) : yuma
With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.
Day 1 ends January 23rd 12:00 AM
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unvote that was fun and nice to serve a point, but I do prefer eevee, ahoppy and teproc over Robz...
Really? Why?
like I said above, it is based off a contradiction, which isn't very scummy. I don't really have a reason to suspect robz for stating intent to hammer, it surprised me and was enough for me to unvote and think about it... but really I think the telling might be more in how people reacted to robz...
and once again I think teproc came off as the type who is dissenting from the popular, prevailing opinion to potentially look townie if Robz is a mislynch... And voltaire came off a little scummy I think...
I think I am going to vote: teproc
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Voltaire came off as really wanting to lynch Robz. Which is interesting.
You came off as afraid of actually lynching Robz. Also interesting.
I am dissenting from the popular opinion because I think it's wrong. Stating intent to hammer is not the same thing as hammering.
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Love this type of stuff lately... makes the first 13 days worth it to have a few hours of this sort of stuff... and is the stuff that I think is truly useful...
Makes me ashamed of promoting all of those soft deadlines intended to avoid this type of last minute shenanigans (although a lot of that was prompted by a outbreak of no-lynches or near no-lynches)
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I think scum doesn't dare participate in that sort of insanity, so townier on Arch and pps. Not yuma for starting it, it ups my townread on myself but whatever. :P I would not mind an actual Robz lynch but I guess we don't actually have enough people for that if yuma was lying? Eh.
PPE: Everything.
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Voltaire came off as really wanting to lynch Robz. Which is interesting.
You came off as afraid of actually lynching Robz. Also interesting.
I am dissenting from the popular opinion because I think it's wrong. Stating intent to hammer is not the same thing as hammering.
Afraid? Strange choice of words there...
and I should mention that I am obviously not voting for you just because of this, but combined with the points I outlined about you earlier...
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Voltaire came off as really wanting to lynch Robz. Which is interesting.
Yeah, I'm paranoid now and hate all the lynches and kind of want to semi-random and Robz is the attractive target. Otherwise I guess I'm left with...chairs? Jimmmmm?
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Yes...I should be here for about an hour before I leave for a whole slew of activities and then study for tomorrow's finals.
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That was weird.
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:P I would not mind an actual Robz lynch but I guess we don't actually have enough people for that if yuma was lying? Eh.
I was never lying. My immediate response was to want to vote for Robz and I did, as is my want. My suspicion of him holds, but as I thought more about it I realized that my reaction was more visceral and less logical
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Voltaire came off as really wanting to lynch Robz. Which is interesting.
You came off as afraid of actually lynching Robz. Also interesting.
I am dissenting from the popular opinion because I think it's wrong. Stating intent to hammer is not the same thing as hammering.
Afraid? Strange choice of words there...
and I should mention that I am obviously not voting for you just because of this, but combined with the points I outlined about you earlier...
Afraid is the word I use because that's how it looks. You vote for Robz to prove him wrong, but when it gets serious you withdraw. This could be because Robz is your scumbuddy.
I don't think this tells us much until one of you flip, but if one of you flips scum I will definitely be looking at your interactions closely, because this screamed scumteam to me. Of course it's way too early to see scumeams so it doesn't really affect how I read either of you, but it might be important later.
PPE : 3
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That was weird.
Yup!
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Voltaire came off as really wanting to lynch Robz. Which is interesting.
Yeah, I'm paranoid now and hate all the lynches and kind of want to semi-random and Robz is the attractive target. Otherwise I guess I'm left with...chairs? Jimmmmm?
I'd be cool with either of those.
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Voltaire came off as really wanting to lynch Robz. Which is interesting.
Yeah, I'm paranoid now and hate all the lynches and kind of want to semi-random and Robz is the attractive target. Otherwise I guess I'm left with...chairs? Jimmmmm?
I always hate all the lynches so I get that. I mostly meant that it will be interesting to look at later, like my yuma comment.
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Jimmmmm lynch is.... yummmmm lynch ?
Basically I'm fine with lynching Jimmmm as well.
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Okay yuma, here's how I read your actions.
-- You profess to find me kind of scummy for meta reasons.
-- You vote for me after I do something that you later admit is perfectly sensible.
-- A wagon builds on me, you get off, proclaiming the case is bad.
-- You reiterate suspicion for me based on earlier reasons but want someone else lynched but are keeping your eye on me.
Surely you have to admit, the most plausible reason for those actions is that you are scum. You wanted to have a sucmread on someone not getting lynched, you wanted to be casting a vote for that person, you didn't want to be on that mislynch wagon that would be terrible for your credibility, but then you wanted to make note of our continued suspicion. Despite not wanting that lynch.
Could this be a townie narrative? Yes, but really you must admit it looks bad, you know?
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Now I kind of wonder if we can do better than the Ahoppy lynch given the info we just got. But I have to go for a bit... maybe chew on this and I'll be back hopefully in not too long.
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Okay yuma, here's how I read your actions.
-- You profess to find me kind of scummy for meta reasons.
-- You vote for me after I do something that you later admit is perfectly sensible.
-- A wagon builds on me, you get off, proclaiming the case is bad.
-- You reiterate suspicion for me based on earlier reasons but want someone else lynched but are keeping your eye on me.
Surely you have to admit, the most plausible reason for those actions is that you are scum. You wanted to have a sucmread on someone not getting lynched, you wanted to be casting a vote for that person, you didn't want to be on that mislynch wagon that would be terrible for your credibility, but then you wanted to make note of our continued suspicion. Despite not wanting that lynch.
Could this be a townie narrative? Yes, but really you must admit it looks bad, you know?
Then vote for me...
I won't admit that it looks bad (that is your opinion) I am doing what I am doing at any given time what I think is best to find scum. I am not interested in looking townie to you and I really don't see anything wrong with what I did above... Nor should I given my alignment because even if there is any validity to your logic (which there might be, but I am not too interested in that) the logic arrives at a faulty conclusion so therefore it must be wrong.
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Surely you have to admit, the most plausible reason for those actions is that you are scum.
One part of your logic I will comment on is that it lacks a step of showing what I did and why "scummy" is the most plausible explanation... there isn't any step there. You jump from listing statements to making a conclusion without explaining how you got to that point.
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Nor should I given my alignment because even if there is any validity to your logic (which there might be, but I am not too interested in that) the logic arrives at a faulty conclusion so therefore it must be wrong.
That's just so bullheaded and unhelpful. If you're town, not getting mislynched is also very important thing to do in addition to finding who the scum are.
I mean I get what you are saying but you have to understand, those of us who are town know that no-one else trusts us so we have to prove it.
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So, your response is "bleh, I'm town" ?
Also, if you're town, you should definitely be interested in looking townie.
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Nor should I given my alignment because even if there is any validity to your logic (which there might be, but I am not too interested in that) the logic arrives at a faulty conclusion so therefore it must be wrong.
That's just so bullheaded and unhelpful. If you're town, not getting mislynched is also very important thing to do in addition to finding who the scum are.
I mean I get what you are saying but you have to understand, those of us who are town know that no-one else trusts us so we have to prove it.
I am not trying to be bullheaded and unhelpful, in fact the opposite of that. I agree not getting mislynched is important. But rather I am not going to filter what I have to say to make myself look more townie... That is unhelpful. But rather that I am confident that given my alignment people 1. should see that I am town based off hopefully getting the correct people lynched and 2. if I do get in hot water I am able to argue and explain my way out of getting mislynched... You must admit that I have a talent for that (I haven't been mislynched as town since MXI--that is like 20+ games....)
Basically I do not fear getting mislynched. I want people to trust me and agree with what I am saying, but I hope that is based more off what I say rather than what I don't say. I don't hold stuff back as town.
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So, your response is "bleh, I'm town" ?
Also, if you're town, you should definitely be interested in looking townie.
What else can I say? It isn't like Robz explains how he made that conclusion... if he did I might be able to say more about it. But he didn't.
As I said I am interested in looking townie, but I am far more interested in looking townie based off results rather than people's opinions which I have no control over. Basically see the above.
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unvote that was fun and nice to serve a point, but I do prefer eevee, ahoppy and teproc over Robz...
Because you want to buddy him? Or because he's your scumpartner?
vote: yuma :D
PPE: 2
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Nor should I given my alignment because even if there is any validity to your logic (which there might be, but I am not too interested in that) the logic arrives at a faulty conclusion so therefore it must be wrong.
That's just so bullheaded and unhelpful. If you're town, not getting mislynched is also very important thing to do in addition to finding who the scum are.
I mean I get what you are saying but you have to understand, those of us who are town know that no-one else trusts us so we have to prove it.
I am not trying to be bullheaded and unhelpful, in fact the opposite of that. I agree not getting mislynched is important. But rather I am not going to filter what I have to say to make myself look more townie... That is unhelpful. But rather that I am confident that given my alignment people 1. should see that I am town based off hopefully getting the correct people lynched and 2. if I do get in hot water I am able to argue and explain my way out of getting mislynched... You must admit that I have a talent for that (I haven't been mislynched as town since MXI--that is like 20+ games....)
Basically I do not fear getting mislynched. I want people to trust me and agree with what I am saying, but I hope that is based more off what I say rather than what I don't say. I don't hold stuff back as town.
Good point. One I'd expected from scum!yuma almost as much as town!yuma, but I do think scum!yuma doesn't -quite- stick his neck out this close to deadline on D1 as much as you have.
unvote but intent to vote elsewhere when I'm home and settled in ~1 hour.
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Good point. One I'd expected from scum!yuma almost as much as town!yuma, but I do think scum!yuma doesn't -quite- stick his neck out this close to deadline on D1 as much as you have.
unvote but intent to vote elsewhere when I'm home and settled in ~1 hour.
Congrats you just earned yourself an even higher townread from me!
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So, your response is "bleh, I'm town" ?
Also, if you're town, you should definitely be interested in looking townie.
What else can I say? It isn't like Robz explains how he made that conclusion... if he did I might be able to say more about it. But he didn't.
Your response seemed like a long-winded way of saying "well, I don't have anything to say about that, but I'm town". Which is a way of appearing to argue/be constructive when you're just stating the obvious. It's not a big deal, but I felt like pointing it out (Voltaire did too apparently).
I disagree about the second part, but that's fine. I actually think that townies are not filtering enough and it's making it easier for anti-town play to be dismissed as "crazy townie" play. To be clear, I'm guilty of this as well, I should probably be more careful about what I post as town, but it's more "work" obviously.
PPE : chairs, what are you doing ?
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I actually think that townies are not filtering enough and it's making it easier for anti-town play to be dismissed as "crazy townie" play. To be clear, I'm guilty of this as well, I should probably be more careful about what I post as town, but it's more "work" obviously.
I agree. I mean... I don't want to sound arrogant or anything and maybe I will, but I think I have "earned" the right to be able to scum hunt. I don't do the "crazy townie" or "anti-play" stuff and that is evidenced by my lack of mislynches. I don't do the stuff that gets people mislynched. I do try new stuff out and sometimes that turns heads, but I don't feel I need to filter because I don't feel I gravitate toward the stuff that hurts town. I think people generally agree... I wouldn't have voted myself to be "best townie" but people did. I think that does say something. No it doesn't give me a free license to do whatever I want, but again, I don't think what I have done here qualifies as "anti-town" or "crazy townie" at all...
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Yeah, I wasn't implying that, just a general point.
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Yeah, I wasn't implying that, just a general point.
Fair enough, and I think we got away from the main point which was... it is hard to respond to anything Robz says when his logic misses the point that explains why it is scummy... if he doesn't provide that link all I can say is "you have an opinion... it is wrong because I am town and I don't see anything that I have done to warrant it being seen as scummy."
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So...no more action to an actual lynch?
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So...no more action to an actual lynch?
People couldn't seem to decide if they actually wanted to start a wagon on me... So I guess people should either form the wagon or we should move on from the distraction that somehow became me...
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It looked to me like AHoppy and Robz were both viable wagons. Does anyone want to outline why they don't want to see either of those two through?
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im very vaguely caught up via phone, and I won't have a chance to
contribute properly until day 2, sadly. I'm glad to see deadline activity and will be commenting on it if I'm alive.
TA isn't a productive place for my vote. I don't like the ahoppy lynch, interestingly as his posting style rarely leaves me at a townread. I'm not loving the Eevee-lynch either, so vote: teproc as an idea. Robz would be a random lynch in my opinion, and I tunnel the man enough with reasons, don't really want to vote for him without any.
I won't be back before the deadline, not even to vote. Sorry my activity was at an all time low all day.
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Ahoppy (4) : chairs, Teproc, scott_pilgrim, Robz
Eevee (3) : Twistedarcher, Jimmmmm, Archetype
Robz (2) : Voltaire, pingpongsam
Teproc (3) : faust, yuma, Eevee
chairs (1) : Ahoppy
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chairs is not voting right now.
Anyway, I'm off to bed and won't be here for the deadline. Of the people who have votes right now, the only other one I could see lynching is Robz, but I'd still prefer AHoppy and he looks more viable, so I'll leave my vote here.
PS : Don't lynch me !
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heh, one more point: do we think scum teproc would mess up his tomorrow by staying up even later if he was scum? I'd estimate his chances of getting lynched drop from 25 to 5 if he just stays online until the lynch and posts reasonable stuff. not enough for me to unvote because I don't like the alternatives, but something to ponder?
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heh, one more point: do we think scum teproc would mess up his tomorrow by staying up even later if he was scum? I'd estimate his chances of getting lynched drop from 25 to 5 if he just stays online until the lynch and posts reasonable stuff. not enough for me to unvote because I don't like the alternatives, but something to ponder?
I would say that has very little to do with anything. This is a game and sleep is vastly more important than it... at least for me. But actually if I think about it, I would say it has the inverse effect on me, I am less likely to lynch people who aren't around in general due ot claiming and such, that doens't really apply here, but there is something that isn't ideal about lynching someone who hasn't had a full chance to respond to everything against them (I mean I have in the past, but it isn't ideal), but I am certainly not saying Teproc is leaving to gain an advantage... I think he is leaving to go to bed, which he should.
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I can see that, but I can also see him deciding to split and hoping hat we just kind of overlook him and say, "Well we cant even get a claim/response out of him" and we look elsewhere. Not sure though.
Yuma, I was disappointed not to even get an acknowledgement that the scum!narrative for your actions was stronger than the town!narrative.
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Yuma, I was disappointed not to even get an acknowledgement that the scum!narrative for your actions was stronger than the town!narrative.
Tough. Better luck next time? What do you want me to say? I am not scum. Therefore your narrative is wrong, plus it lacks the explanation of showing how what I did was scummy.
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I'm back, and I'm most comfortable right now just putting my vote back on vote: Ahoppy.
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L-1: Vote: AHoppy
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Well...um...intent? Doesn't seem like we're actually going to do anything else NOW and I don't want to spend all night on the forums.
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We've been here before and we know where the intent comes from.
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I don't like this lynch at all. Joke's on me for being so lurky.
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I don't like this lynch at all.
Me neither.
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I don't like this lynch at all.
Me neither.
I guess I am ok with it... but hey! Look votes on teproc! WOW!
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vote: Teproc?
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I don't like this lynch at all.
Me neither.
As far as I can see, ahoppy is being his normal, scarcely posting always town self, and the wagon took off after he wrote that one post where he clearly outlined the logical fallacy in TA's case against me.
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I don't like this lynch at all.
Me neither.
As far as I can see, ahoppy is being his normal, scarcely posting always town self, and the wagon took off after he wrote that one post where he clearly outlined the logical fallacy in TA's case against me.
and I feel the people accusing him think I'm scum, not town
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Yeah.
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I don't like this lynch at all.
Me neither.
As far as I can see, ahoppy is being his normal, scarcely posting always town self, and the wagon took off after he wrote that one post where he clearly outlined the logical fallacy in TA's case against me.
and I feel the people accusing him think I'm scum, not town
Huh?
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if he is suspected of being my partner, shouldn't the lynch
be me?
like, I think ahoppy is an illogical lynch for everyone. why is he getting lynched? is it not for defending me?
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like, I think ahoppy is an illogical lynch for everyone. why is he getting lynched? is it not for defending me?
Not from my point of view, no. That's the part that started making me question the lynch, when others joined it for that bad reason.
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What's the argument for Teproc? Ahoppy's not a particularly great lynch in my opinion, either, but I'm not sold on there being a better option (simply because I think we're still not seeing a great option at all right now).
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Jimmmmm? Very active at the start, then has totally disappeared.
I guess I'm fine with a Teproc lynch too then.
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chairs... my points on Teproc:
Alright then:
Teproc....
- Ok... my first initial impression of Teproc was that he was coming into the game using the "angry, contentious townie" impression that is very easy for scum to fall back on. Comes in and just is really against everything that is going on, from the current status of theory talk (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9946.msg335656#msg335656), to the current wagons. (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9946.msg335426#msg335426) It is certainly one I have taken in the past (Wibbly Wobbely in regard to Volt's lynch day1 for example...)
- He didn't do much hunting at all early. He had a vote on me and then just talked theory for a really long time. Eventually he sat down on a vote on chairs (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9946.msg336269#msg336269) for not contributing. The vote wasn't too important to me, although it was indicative of how he was approaching the game... just kinda talking theory and realized he wasn't hunting and so went for an easy target? But instead it was what happened after as chairs had just made his "I forgot about the game" moment. Voltaire pointed it out and Teproc responded (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9946.msg336358#msg336358) very passively. Kinda like an "Oopps... that was silly of me, hope no one notices..."
- Next he moves a vote to Jimmmmm (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9946.msg336814#msg336814) but what is important here isnt' the vote on Jimmmm it is how he is responding to the votes on eevee... he says "I don't like Jimmm's vote at all though. The fourth vote is what makes it a wagon, and I don't think Eevee is a good wagon because of his relative lurkiness" which wasn't that basically the same reason he voted for chairs earlier. So one is a wagon he is willing to start, but the second is a wagon that he isn't? What is the difference? I think the wagons or the people aren't different (except for of course, the fact that some people found chairs to be townie because of his moment, but that is beside the point) instead the difference is how Teproc wants to approach it. I think scum nowadays wants to be the ones creating the wagons. They want to be in control and then attack those who are creating the wagons. And I think that is what Teproc is doing here (faust originally brought up this idea). He sees a wagon... I don't know the alignment of eevee so it is on town or a scum partner?.... and takes it down and tries to get a wagon started on a player that is on it... Jimmmm. To expound on this, he says his reason for voting Jimmm (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9946.msg336824#msg336824) is because he disagrees with Jimmmm's read. Disagreeing with reads doesn't indicate scummy. Scummy is scummy. Disagreeing is a convenient way to make it look like someone is scummy.
So those are the things that had stuck out to me as I was reading them as they came through. The first two I don't think are that significant in a sense. They are more what I would term "gut feels" even though I hate that terminology. To explain it, they are some of the things that I look for scum to be doing that make me want to look closer at a person... Kinda makes me want to keep my eye on them as town can do them as well (well town can do anything scum can do because the scum playing on here of late is exceptionally good I think) so they are more just triggers that make me think teproc has a chance of being scum, but don't necessarily make me think he is scum.
The third I think is potentially more important. As it shows a difference in how teproc is approaching different wagons and the difference depends on what he wants to get out of it. Also I think the excuse to find Jimmmm scummy because he disagrees with a read is weak excuse for his vote.
So maybe not enough to vote for, but like I said, I would be willing, especially compared to TA and chairs....
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I like the case against Teproc, and would like to see a lynch actually get through. vote: Teproc
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that is 5, L-2 I believe
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Well, I am out for the night. I hope you guys can agree on a lynch before deadline.
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I can't remember how I labeled him before, but I'm leaning "alright with" for the Teproc lynch. I'm hesitant to lay my vote down since I prefer others' lynch to his.
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vote count status quo:
Ahoppy (5) : chairs, Teproc, Robz, chairs, PPS
Eevee (3) : Twistedarcher, Jimmmmm, Archetype
Teproc (4) : faust, yuma, Eevee, Voltaire, scott
chairs (1) : Ahoppy
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So only 4 on Teproc. Vote: Teproc
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What scares me is that Eevee is on the wagon. I'm hoping my reads are just terrible and Eevee is a Towny trying to save himself.
Also, chairs is doubly voting for AHoppy, Yuma.
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So only 4 on Teproc. Vote: Teproc
yeah, previously I had counted eevee's vote twice I think? Keep in mind this obviously isn't official... but I do try to be accurate.
Anyone else? Chairs you ever look at the case? Robz? Jimmmm going to be around? Ahoppy hasn't been here to respond at all...
Who is here?
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who am I missing then... Maybe they are voting for Teproc then?
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Your vote count looks wrong to me... you count chairs twice.
Um... I'm busy right now, when is deadline, midnight? I will be on before that to review.
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Oy... that is what I get for trying to post while holding a baby:
Retry:
Ahoppy (4) : Teproc, Robz, chairs, PPS
Eevee (2) : Twistedarcher, Jimmmmm
Teproc (6) : faust, yuma, Eevee, Voltaire, scott, Archetype (L-1)...
chairs (1) : Ahoppy
Is where we are at I believe
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Unvote.
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Teproc won't be able to claim if he's lynch candidate, which really sucks.
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Teproc won't be able to claim if he's lynch candidate, which really sucks.
We aren't doing any claiming... there is nothing to claim! Where have you been....
why did you unvote?
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Teproc won't be able to claim if he's lynch candidate, which really sucks.
We aren't doing any claiming... there is nothing to claim! Where have you been....
why did you unvote?
He can claim which night he does things. If he's a N1 Cop, a N1 Doc could protect him.
Eh, but wait. WIFOM. I guess I'll (re)Vote: Teproc. Deadline is a lot sooner than I thought anyways.
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...and I'm gone. Hopefully someone hammers before deadline.
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So I guess I am here by myself until Robz isn't busy anymore? If only I drank... this would be a great opportunity for kickball... note to future mods... forum midnight deadlines apparently don't work for anyone...
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Here. Yuma summarize for me, I can't catch up. Why didn't eevee wagon go?
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Here. Yuma summarize for me, I can't catch up. Why didn't eevee wagon go?
Hmmmm, eevee didn't go through because people I guess kinda thought it was too easy? Mostly for me it stalled at four votes and never grew.
Right now we are basically at Ahoppy versus Teproc. I am basically ok with both. I think i prefer teproc over Ahoppy. Ahoppy is basically just a run of the mill lurker lynch and some people don't like how he defended eevee (I kinda agree), but am one who thinks that if we are going to lynch him for that maybe we should just lynch eevee? But little too late for that.
Teproc case is put forward Here (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9946.msg337745#msg337745)
There was some movement toward a Robz lynch, but that kinda died of for various reasons that ultimately I think were best...
So basically we are at ahoppy or teproc with 45 minutes to go. Teproc at L-1.
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I'm at work. Can't really follow, but can vote, and will before deadline to get a lynch through.
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Well if no one is around I don't have a choice on teproc, do I?
Eevee too easy? If he was too easy he'd be close to lynch. I thought everyone was cool with teproc and ahoppy, they seem like the easy lynches. Not eevee. I still would love to lynch eevee but I guess I will hammer teproc since I don't have a choice?
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Also terribly sorry for not being around. I had real life stuff I needed to do.
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Well if no one is around I don't have a choice on teproc, do I?
Eevee too easy? If he was too easy he'd be close to lynch. I thought everyone was cool with teproc and ahoppy, they seem like the easy lynches. Not eevee. I still would love to lynch eevee but I guess I will hammer teproc since I don't have a choice?
Maybe easy isn't the right word choice... although I dont' feel like any of these lynches have been too easy... as we are kinda struggling here down the stretch.... Let me pull up an example maybe:
from teproc none the less:
The reason I don't like the Eevee wagon isn't because it's on a lurker. It's because Eevee lurking isn't indicative of him being scum, and the way in which he lurked this game looks town!Eevee to me.
a handful of people kinda said something along the lines of this...
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Right...but those are so easy to give..and obviously most people giving that defense aren't scum but if eevee is scum that's the defense is expect people to have if his lynch wasn't imminent.
vote count please
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I'm going to Vote: Ahoppy. Not a great contribution I know, but I think someone having to decide between lynches is better than someone hammering simply to get a lynch through. Will hammer before deadline if I have to.
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Our mod isn't online, so this is where I think we are at TA:
Ahoppy (5) : Teproc, Robz, chairs, PPS, Jimmmmm (L-2)
Eevee (2) : Twistedarcher
Teproc (6) : faust, yuma, Eevee, Voltaire, scott, Archetype (L-1)
chairs (1) : Ahoppy
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So between myself Yuma and jimmm we have the votes for either teproc or ahoppy? I think ahoppy wagon has more of my town reads on it...argh I will reread as much of today as I can
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Ok, I was busy until just now, and so I need to read a few pages to catch up before deadline.
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unvote
real quick since ahoppy is here and his best move regardless is to hammer teproc...
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Ok I think I'd rather vote teproc than ahoppy. Based on the fact that I still think eevee is scum, there was one point where the wagons were ahoppy and eevee, and I don't think scum lets that happen (although they may all have been offline, meh)
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Wait...but look at vote count 1.6. Eevee and ahoppy were the two biggest wagons, yet neither was on the other. Is it really possible they are both scum?
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Ok I think I'd rather vote teproc than ahoppy. Based on the fact that I still think eevee is scum, there was one point where the wagons were ahoppy and eevee, and I don't think scum lets that happen (although they may all have been offline, meh)
Alright... now that you have said your peace, I am back to vote: teproc. ahoppy or TA can go ahead and vote... and perhaps both should to make sure my vote count isn't wrong and we don't accidentally no lynch....
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I didn't like ahoppy's discrediting my case...yes it was incomplete but it still had some good points. And yes I didn't finish it but I was very upfront about that and just didn't get to make time for it. I am leaning that way now, but honestly I'm kickballing and don't know.
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Wait...but look at vote count 1.6. Eevee and ahoppy were the two biggest wagons, yet neither was on the other. Is it really possible they are both scum?
It is possible, but I woulnd't say probable.
They are both lurkers and as such haven't really moved their vote around a whole bunch....
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Unvote Yuma? I am leaning ahoppy now. At least lets talk it out for 10 more.
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unvote
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Thanks. I am fully reading your Teproc case now.
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I'm here, I need to go over the teproc case again, but I think it does look promising. The starting a wagon and jumping off part really sticks out to me. Intent to vote teproc. What's the vote count?
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Okay, I see what you are saying. Meh, I honestly can't decide. I know I am being super-flaky, but I don't have enough time to formulate who I want to see lynched...
Both have given me bad vibes from the beginning, so really, I'm not unhappy with either one. They were both scum reads. Ahoppy's reads post gave me bad vibes almost immediately, and I believe it was Voltaire who pointed this out and had the same gut reaction I had. I didn't particularly like either of their reactions to my case on Eevee, and wasn't swayed by either of the reasons. I remember Teproc doing a defense of "Eevee just seems like he was in this one game when he was town", which I find to always be one of the flimsiest reasons -- there were multiple extremely vague statements that I wanted him to explain further. So yeah, Teproc seems ok, although Ahoppy seems ok too.
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I'm here, I need to go over the teproc case again, but I think it does look promising. The starting a wagon and jumping off part really sticks out to me. Intent to vote teproc. What's the vote count?
Both of you are currently at L-2.
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I'm here, I need to go over the teproc case again, but I think it does look promising. The starting a wagon and jumping off part really sticks out to me. Intent to vote teproc. What's the vote count?
5 on you, 5 on teproc. Yuma, you, and me are the ones on neither wagon.
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Okay, I see what you are saying. Meh, I honestly can't decide. I know I am being super-flaky, but I don't have enough time to formulate who I want to see lynched...
Both have given me bad vibes from the beginning, so really, I'm not unhappy with either one. They were both scum reads. Ahoppy's reads post gave me bad vibes almost immediately, and I believe it was Voltaire who pointed this out and had the same gut reaction I had. I didn't particularly like either of their reactions to my case on Eevee, and wasn't swayed by either of the reasons. I remember Teproc doing a defense of "Eevee just seems like he was in this one game when he was town", which I find to always be one of the flimsiest reasons -- there were multiple extremely vague statements that I wanted him to explain further. So yeah, Teproc seems ok, although Ahoppy seems ok too.
I will say Ahoppy's last post left me thinking he was kinda scummy? Thoughts on it?
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I guess I'm leaning Teproc over Ahoppy..
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I'm here, I need to go over the teproc case again, but I think it does look promising. The starting a wagon and jumping off part really sticks out to me. Intent to vote teproc. What's the vote count?
Both of you are currently at L-2.
I guess I'll Vote: teproc then. It's the most convincing case I've seen all day. I am sorry for discrediting your case TA, it very well may be true, I just wasn't willing to vote Eevee because of it. Hopefully during the night you can complete it.
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#847? I didn't get a read on it, because I honestly don't know what he was referring to. Which wagon did Teproc jump off of?
Honestly Yuma I know this is a sucky situation, but I kinda have been getting a towny read on you and may end up sheeping you. I know that's a lot of pressure on you, but I just don't have a feel tonight, and have been scummy enough on both that I don't hate either lynch, but I don't know which one is more likely to turn up scum....I wish I had been here a few hours earlier.
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I'm here, I need to go over the teproc case again, but I think it does look promising. The starting a wagon and jumping off part really sticks out to me. Intent to vote teproc. What's the vote count?
Both of you are currently at L-2.
I guess I'll Vote: teproc then. It's the most convincing case I've seen all day. I am sorry for discrediting your case TA, it very well may be true, I just wasn't willing to vote Eevee because of it. Hopefully during the night you can complete it.
And this lessened it... this is more what I expect town to do coming in and seeing where they are at...
Whereas the post above is what I would expect scum to do... try to find a way to justify their position on a wagon
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It's got ate towards me...but I don't know if that's scummy
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alright... vote: teproc
TA you want to vote as well to make sure we are getting this down?
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Vote: Teproc
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I think you hammered, but vote:teproc
I am not super confident but we've lucked into these before, and we have a lot to analyze tomorrow.
Did this deadline have the feel of two town wagons, or that there's scum involved? I kinda lean the second, because if we hit all town most of the day, I need to completely recalibrate my reads...but meh
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Here sorry whats going on
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Okay. Well that's fine.
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Here sorry whats going on
Well done making it by deadline. :P
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Yeah. Well, work stuff. I probably would have went with Teproc anyway.
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THREAD LOCKED
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So I guess I am here by myself until Robz isn't busy anymore? If only I drank... this would be a great opportunity for kickball... note to future mods... forum midnight deadlines apparently don't work for anyone...
They work for me the best. It's about 9:00 PM for me, which is perfect (sometimes I'm gone and have to wait an hour like today, but it's pretty close. I can guarantee I can be on at nighttime, but not morning or afternoon). Sorry.
Final Vote Count:
Eevee (1): Twistedarcher
AHoppy (5): Teproc, Robz888, chairs, pingpongsam, Jimmmmm
Teproc (7): faust, Eevee, Voltaire, scott_pilgrim, Archetype, AHoppy, yuma
Teproc was lynched. He was a Town Doctor.
NIGHT 1 START
Everyone, get your night actions in within 48 hours.
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I am sorry, this completely slipped my mind last night. Anyway, Voltaire, the Town Cop, has been killed.
DAY 2 START
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Well there goes one of my top suspects going into Day1. I say investigation claims should wait 2-3 real days before giving info... enough time for people to post and get reads and stuff, but not so long that we go for days and days and then have to start over with little time left to use such information (especially if results are town based)
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Voltaire was on the Teproc wagon; do we think that had anything to do with Mafia's decision-making process? If so, what?
For me, personally, it makes me more wary of the people sharing a spot on the Ahoppy wagon with me.
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Yesterday had the feeling that we had a wagon on scum, but maybe that's just due to the part that I already had Ahoppy and Eevee towards the top of my scum list. Meh, I still think Eevee is scum (and no, I haven't finished my case yet....). The Teproc and Ahoppy wagons both built very easily, while the Eevee wagon just completely stalled -- I think that wagon is where it's more likely scum would be. I still want to lynch Eevee.
Vote: Eeevee
I will try to get the Eevee town games read soon, I promise.
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Voltaire was on the Teproc wagon; do we think that had anything to do with Mafia's decision-making process? If so, what?
I think people talk about Mafia's decision-making process too much. Sometimes they take out people they see as a threat, sometimes they take out people they think are unlikely to be lynched, sometimes they avoid reducing pools of players they are a part of and sometimes they do exactly what they think we wouldn't think they would do. It's all WIFOM and so easily manipulated by scum.
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Yesterday had the feeling that we had a wagon on scum, but maybe that's just due to the part that I already had Ahoppy and Eevee towards the top of my scum list. Meh, I still think Eevee is scum (and no, I haven't finished my case yet....). The Teproc and Ahoppy wagons both built very easily, while the Eevee wagon just completely stalled -- I think that wagon is where it's more likely scum would be. I still want to lynch Eevee.
Vote: Eeevee
I will try to get the Eevee town games read soon, I promise.
I'll have to have another look at the wagons to see if I agree with your analysis, but Vote: Eevee still seems good to me.
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Eevee has actually dropped down in my estimation... not necessarily because he has done anything (and part of that is certainly the psychologic effect of having his vote be brought up and seeing it not gain momentum... which could be scum stopping it, but that isn't what it felt like, but rather that a large portion of town wasn't interested in it).
On the inverse Robz, TA and Jimmmm have all gone up in scumminess.
chairs not being killed was interesting. He is who I would have pinpointed as the potential mafia kill, but that alone isn't enough for me to change my read. I still have a strong town read on PPS.
Taking a look at archetype might be worthwhile as well as he was the potential candidate that was mentioned by many and voted by few (myself included for out of game reasons)
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And I should say that Robz's attempts to discredit me for various yesterday is where I stand with him are exactly how I expect scum robz to attempt to deal with someone who is threatening him as scum.
Jimmmm is for the high activity and then complete drop off as day went on.
TA is less than the other two, but mostly just a feeling that as we were talking at the end of day yesterday he was forcing himself to have to choose between two options and might have been overselling trying to decide which one was best (when if he was scum might know that both ahoppy and teproc were town... assuming ahoppy is town, which isn't something I want to do at this point) but this is more of a feeling similar to the initial feeling that made me want to look at teproc closer and well... we know how that turned out.
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Jimmmm is for the high activity and then complete drop off as day went on.
That's a pretty simplistic argument on someone who is known as someone who lurks on and off.
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Jimmmm is for the high activity and then complete drop off as day went on.
That's a pretty simplistic argument on someone who is known as someone who lurks on and off.
sure... I never said it wasn't. But that doesn't mean I shouldn't raise you in my suspicions. If it was something you only did as town... then maybe. But you have done it as mafia as well... Toy Story for example.
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Jimmmm is for the high activity and then complete drop off as day went on.
That's a pretty simplistic argument on someone who is known as someone who lurks on and off.
sure... I never said it wasn't. But that doesn't mean I shouldn't raise you in my suspicions. If it was something you only did as town... then maybe. But you have done it as mafia as well... Toy Story for example.
Toy Story's not a great example as it's the only game I've subbed in and I legitimately never fully caught up. If you compare recent Town games of mine you'll find quite a range of activity levels - Grimm and Time War come to mind.
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Jimmmm is for the high activity and then complete drop off as day went on.
That's a pretty simplistic argument on someone who is known as someone who lurks on and off.
sure... I never said it wasn't. But that doesn't mean I shouldn't raise you in my suspicions. If it was something you only did as town... then maybe. But you have done it as mafia as well... Toy Story for example.
Toy Story's not a great example as it's the only game I've subbed in and I legitimately never fully caught up. If you compare recent Town games of mine you'll find quite a range of activity levels - Grimm and Time War come to mind.
Or we can go all the way back to LOR1 and LOR2... but I get your point. You were very lurky in Clue, but not in Chocolate Factory And I am not saying you are scum for it, I am saying I am more suspicious of you in general and it is a reason for me to look at your more closely. It would be a point in general against just about anyone. Or do you not want people to be looking at you too closely? Because that is what this could easily look like right now... "don't pay attention to me! Nothing to see here! Carry on."
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And I am not saying you are scum for it, I am saying I am more suspicious of you in general and it is a reason for me to look at your more closely. It would be a point in general against just about anyone.
I agree, I see where you're coming from and agree that it's a good reason to look at someone more closely. But that's not what you said, you simply said my scumminess has gone up.
Or do you not want people to be looking at you too closely? Because that is what this could easily look like right now... "don't pay attention to me! Nothing to see here! Carry on."
I feel like this is spinning what I said a little. You said so little about me that I could have easily ignored it and/or tried to divert attention elsewhere and hoped that no one else mentioned it. I'm quite happy for people to analyse my play, but if you call me scummy in a one-line argument over something that I really think should be a nulltell for me, I'm going to point that out.
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Or do you not want people to be looking at you too closely? Because that is what this could easily look like right now... "don't pay attention to me! Nothing to see here! Carry on."
I feel like this is spinning what I said a little. You said so little about me that I could have easily ignored it and/or tried to divert attention elsewhere and hoped that no one else mentioned it. I'm quite happy for people to analyse my play, but if you call me scummy in a one-line argument over something that I really think should be a nulltell for me, I'm going to point that out.
I didn't feel this way until you argued against my next post and went further to try and establish that it was in fact not your scum meta, but a town meta to the point that it felt that you were trying to make yourself look townie because of your behavior instead of "null" as you said.
And feel free to point out whatever you want, but allow me to analyze those points to see what I can make of them. And what I made of them was "Ugh... can't believe he is brining that up. Well it actually makes me townie if you look at it through these lenses and really shouldn't have been brought up in the first place."
and your continued questioning of me questioning you is just furthering that whole feeling... although you do have a point that scum could and maybe even would just ignore the whole statement or leave it alone after one retort.
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And I should say that Robz's attempts to discredit me for various yesterday is where I stand with him are exactly how I expect scum robz to attempt to deal with someone who is threatening him as scum.
Oh, how dare you. I did NO such thing. What you did yesterday was remarkably scummy, right or wrong. And you didn't take one iota of heat for it.
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Oh okay, well now yuma is making bad arguments against Jimm, too.
Vote: yuma
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Or do you not want people to be looking at you too closely? Because that is what this could easily look like right now... "don't pay attention to me! Nothing to see here! Carry on."
I feel like this is spinning what I said a little. You said so little about me that I could have easily ignored it and/or tried to divert attention elsewhere and hoped that no one else mentioned it. I'm quite happy for people to analyse my play, but if you call me scummy in a one-line argument over something that I really think should be a nulltell for me, I'm going to point that out.
I didn't feel this way until you argued against my next post and went further to try and establish that it was in fact not your scum meta, but a town meta to the point that it felt that you were trying to make yourself look townie because of your behavior instead of "null" as you said.
I never said or meant that it was my Town meta. I said I'm known for sometimes lurking, and did not say or mean with regard to a particular alignment. You brought up Town/scum metas so I gave examples of where I've both lurked and not lurked as Town. I was critiquing your quick, easy argument on something that should be null, not claiming Towncred for it.
And feel free to point out whatever you want, but allow me to analyze those points to see what I can make of them. And what I made of them was "Ugh... can't believe he is brining that up. Well it actually makes me townie if you look at it through these lenses and really shouldn't have been brought up in the first place."
Feel free to analyse whatever you want, but allow me to argue with your analysis if I think you've come to a wrong conclusion. I have no problem with you bringing up my posting patterns - I have mentioned my own lurking at least twice this game. I totally think that it's a valid point to bring up, I just didn't think it was very well thought out for you to simply say I was scummy for it and leave it at that.
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Feel free to analyse whatever you want, but allow me to argue with your analysis if I think you've come to a wrong conclusion. I have no problem with you bringing up my posting patterns - I have mentioned my own lurking at least twice this game. I totally think that it's a valid point to bring up, I just didn't think it was very well thought out for you to simply say I was scummy for it and leave it at that.
I agree, and then he started saying you trying to explain it was scummy, too.
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I don't know why Robz, but you agreeing with me like this makes me uneasy. I got the same feeling in Chocolate Factory, and you were Town then, so I guess I should be okay with it.
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I'm agreeing with you because you're right. Well, I don't know if you're right about your argument that your posting frequency in this game has been regular, but you're right that it isn't scummy to try and explain to yuma why he is wrong in thinking your posting frequency is scummy. Yuma thinks he doesn't have to be held accountable for scummy things he does--and that it's discrediting him if you try.
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As I reminder, yuma expressed what I believe to be false suspicion on me all day yesterday for my absence, agitated for me to be lynched, and then backed off when there was an actual wagon. And then continued to express a scum read while happily lynching someone else. And now my scumminess has "gone up" in his eyes. It's a scam.
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Robz seems to be making sense. I'll have to re-read yuma when I get a chance.
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Oh okay, well now yuma is making bad arguments against Jimm, too.
Vote: yuma
vote: robz won't be moving it unless someone has a town result on him, which isn't very likely at all
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Oh okay, well now yuma is making bad arguments against Jimm, too.
Vote: yuma
vote: robz won't be moving it unless someone has a town result on him, which isn't very likely at all
Yep, and I am the one trying to discredit.
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Robz seems to be making sense. I'll have to re-read yuma when I get a chance.
I'll be back later when I have time and fully outline what happened. Robz still hasn't addressed a whole bunch of flaws in what he originally posted. This is scum robz trying to get me to be mislynched. If he gets it through tomorrow we will be all like "Ahhh shucks... he was scummy as hell... I couldn't help but vote for him..." Guarantee it....
Seriously though people can go back and look for themselves if they doubt me. Robz never addressed my points that I brought up.
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Yuma thinks he doesn't have to be held accountable for scummy things he does--and that it's discrediting him if you try.
I never said that... I said what you pointed out me doing wasn't scummy and that I shouldn't think it was scummy just because you said it was. The whole conversation with teproc moved away from what the original focus was and became a conversation about how I try new approaches and as town and while I shouldn't be given free reign to do so, people shouldn't be surprised when I do.
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Seriously though people can go back and look for themselves if they doubt me.
I certainly will when I can, and I encourage others to do the same.
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Seriously though people can go back and look for themselves if they doubt me.
I certainly will when I can, and I encourage others to do the same.
The main point to focus on is that Robz said something I did was scummy... but never said why it was scummy. And then flipped a lid when I refused to acknowledge that it was scummy and didn't have anything to say to refute it because he had provided no reason for why it was scummy. I know it wasn't scummy because I am town and know that what I was doing was with a town mindset... so why should I acknowledge something was scummy when I know it wasn't and robz never attempted to show me why it was... he just kept saying it was until be believed it and hopefully everyone else would as well..... ModernCommunity scum!Robz all over again.
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If voltaire were still alive he would totally agree with me. Specifically I think TA and faust will agree with me here as they were his partners in Modern Community.
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Well at least we got past D1.
Vote: Eevee
Will take an in-depth look at the events leading up to Teproc's lynch when I have time.
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If Voltaire were still alive he would agree with me!
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If Voltaire were still alive he would agree with me!
Guess we will have to ask him after the game is over. But what about TA and faust? Think they will agree with you?
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If Voltaire were still alive he would agree with me!
Guess we will have to ask him after the game is over. But what about TA and faust? Think they will agree with you?
And do still have nothing to say about your lack of an explanation to the points I addressed?
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I can't bleieve you think I'm doing what I did in Modern Community. You are doing what I did in Modern Community! I'm not tunneling you at all, you are tunneling me.
What flaws did I not address?
Again, I presented a narrative of your actions that is, to my knowledge, typically a scum narrative. You were eager to lynch me and then bailed when you had the chance to do so. I'm glad you brought up Modern Community, where I tunneled Voltaire. The last thing I wanted was for him to actually die, it was going to make me look terrible. That's what you did to me yesterday. Really, this is not like a wacky case. But you said you don't have to address it because you know you're town. Okay, well everyone can just say that. Like when you said the thing about Jimm, he shoul dhave just said, "Well I know I'm town," huh?
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If Voltaire were still alive he would agree with me!
Guess we will have to ask him after the game is over. But what about TA and faust? Think they will agree with you?
I don't know if they'll agree with. I don't know if they're town, for one thing, as you seem to presume.
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I guess I didn't say explicitly why it's scummy... it is scummy to slowly and icnreasingly express a scum read on someone, start a wagon on them, and then kill that wagon as soon as it starts up... and THEN still maintain that that person is scummy. You wanted me around as a scumread for you.
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Run down of events... I am going to try to keep commentary out of it, but that might be hard, so people can look at it and see what they think....
I vote for robz (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9946.msg336685#msg336685) saying "I know Robz is somewhat VLA, but he still gets my vote. If he were in my shoes I think he would agree as he is totally for LALL..." and "Robz 1. is in that group of players 2. Lurking, which I think day1 is more scummy than townie, even with his VLA 3. had the most votes on him (or now has the most votes on him), and at this stage we need to get some wagons going so we can get that precious information you are so interested in to analyze later."
I then shortly leave the Robz wagon (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9946.msg336762#msg336762) for eevee because at that time I was more interested in the eevee wagon than the robz (they were both LALL in my book)
Eventually we get a point where Robz says he has intent to hammer Ahoppy (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9946.msg337623#msg337623) when Ahoppy is at L-1. Voltaire points out a discrepancy (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9946.msg337625#msg337625) between robz's actions and rob's words. Robz responds by saying:
And Eevee is the other wagon (and there's not enough traction for Teproc or chairs). So don't know why the surprise.
I mean it's like him or no one at this point.
To which I vote him... (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9946.msg337638#msg337638) I explain that vote here (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9946.msg337670#msg337670), saying that it was "more visceral and less logical" and that since it was based off a contradiction (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9946.msg337661#msg337661) it wasn't all that scummy once I thought about it. Anyways... Robz racks up about 4 votes and I unvote (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9946.msg337650#msg337650) and move to teproc.
As part of that process I still say that I have a suspicion of Robz (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9946.msg337670#msg337670) but that I preferred Ahoppy, Eevee or Teproc (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9946.msg337650#msg337650) over him.
Now we are getting into the meat of it:
Robz says this:
Okay yuma, here's how I read your actions.
-- You profess to find me kind of scummy for meta reasons.
-- You vote for me after I do something that you later admit is perfectly sensible.
-- A wagon builds on me, you get off, proclaiming the case is bad.
-- You reiterate suspicion for me based on earlier reasons but want someone else lynched but are keeping your eye on me.
Surely you have to admit, the most plausible reason for those actions is that you are scum. You wanted to have a sucmread on someone not getting lynched, you wanted to be casting a vote for that person, you didn't want to be on that mislynch wagon that would be terrible for your credibility, but then you wanted to make note of our continued suspicion. Despite not wanting that lynch.
Could this be a townie narrative? Yes, but really you must admit it looks bad, you know?
He lists the things I did and then says the most plausible reason is that I am scum and creates a long rambling "narrative" for why it is scummy in a way that ultimately ends up at the conclusion of "it looks bad, you know?" He admits it could be a town narrative--but doesn't actually look to see if it could be... you know... someone who is trying to figure out if he is town? Maybe? Nah... Why even consider that? How did you know you weren't getting lynched? How did I know that? You still had about 4 votes on you and could have easily been lynched. Do I want to be voting for you or not? Do I want you lynched or not? Is it bad to have suspicion of someone but realize that they might not be the best lynch for that particular day?
Anyways... to all of this I say:
Then vote for me...
I won't admit that it looks bad (that is your opinion) I am doing what I am doing at any given time what I think is best to find scum. I am not interested in looking townie to you and I really don't see anything wrong with what I did above... Nor should I given my alignment because even if there is any validity to your logic (which there might be, but I am not too interested in that) the logic arrives at a faulty conclusion so therefore it must be wrong.
Because I am not interested in having an argument where he has already established that I am scum. He didn't even consider... or showed no effort aside from saying "Could this be a town narrative"... of looking at it from a townie narrative. So why should I respond to something if he provides nothing to respond to. I know it isn't a scummy narrative because I know I am not scum. If you want to argue about whether a particular point is scummy, ok, and I feel like I do just that and say "I am doing what I am doing at any given time what I think is best to find scum" and was very clear and focused on my points when I voted and unvoted earlier about my train of thought.
I also said:
Surely you have to admit, the most plausible reason for those actions is that you are scum.
One part of your logic I will comment on is that it lacks a step of showing what I did and why "scummy" is the most plausible explanation... there isn't any step there. You jump from listing statements to making a conclusion without explaining how you got to that point.
To which Robz never responds. This is what he says about the subject through day1...
Yuma, I was disappointed not to even get an acknowledgement that the scum!narrative for your actions was stronger than the town!narrative.
Wow...
I then come into day2 saying:
And I should say that Robz's attempts to discredit me for various yesterday is where I stand with him are exactly how I expect scum robz to attempt to deal with someone who is threatening him as scum.
which is true. It is what Robz as scum does. He picks a fight and tries to get into an argument with that person with the ultimate goal of getting them lynched down the road (kinda what he is accusing me of doing to him here) because note that until just now Robz never voted for me for the above... he just accused me and discredited me to hopefully make people trust my voice less. It is exactly what he did with voltaire when voltaire was onto him and his scummates.
He responds to this saying the following:
And I should say that Robz's attempts to discredit me for various yesterday is where I stand with him are exactly how I expect scum robz to attempt to deal with someone who is threatening him as scum.
Oh, how dare you. I did NO such thing. What you did yesterday was remarkably scummy, right or wrong. And you didn't take one iota of heat for it.
if it was so scummy how come you weren't able to actually show that it was and how come no one else, which includes about 7 townies out there, haven't agreed with you?
and then says "Yuma thinks he doesn't have to be held accountable for scummy things he does--and that it's discrediting him if you try." (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9946.msg338470#msg338470) which as I already said is something that I never said nor meant to imply. I am just saying that until something is shown to actually be scummy--and I don't think it was and neither did anyone else apparently because they didn't jump on it like they wanted you to--I don't see any reason to say something is scummy just because you say it is. You have to show why it is scummy... and yeah... even then I am probably not going to think it is scummy.
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I guess I didn't say explicitly why it's scummy... it is scummy to slowly and icnreasingly express a scum read on someone, start a wagon on them, and then kill that wagon as soon as it starts up... and THEN still maintain that that person is scummy. You wanted me around as a scumread for you.
Ok, if that is what you are saying it is, then sure I'll respond to it.
But take a look at the above... see what it actually looks like.
1. I vote for you for LALL and leave it because better options come up. My suspicion of you was never extremely high, but enough to vote for you, especially as you had the largest wagon
2. I start a wagon on you based off a visceral reaction of you saying something that I didn't like... the idea that we couldn't lynch anyone else (turns out we could...) and saying you would hammer Ahoppy despite your previous statement.
3. I didn't kill the wagon. I don't have the power to kill the wagon. but I did express doubt about it once I actually thought about it and realized that my reaction was less logic based.
4. I say that you are scummy. I think this is your crux of your argument, but I don't see why it is scummy. Yeah... I have a scummier read on you, but I specifically state that I would rather lynch Eevee, Ahoppy and Teproc before you, so it can't be that strong of a scum read?
And why do I need to keep you around as a scum read if I am scum? What purpose does that serve? you say it is because I wanted to avoid being on a mislynch wagon and getting heat from that...? Then what was I doing on the Teproc wagon?
So basically I think you have lined up a series of events that occurred and said "this is a scummy narrative" and set that in stone. Based off how you are reacting today I think that you are scum trying to push this through based off the principle that you often used of "he was soooo scummy I had to mislynch him... don't blame me." Well I am not going to let you do that.
you have also accused me of tunneling you. I don't think that is true at all. If tunneling is completely abandoning a read on someone then I guess that might fit the definition of tunneling, but then we would have very different interpretations. I suspected your for lurking, left it for better options, suspected you for the ahoppy thing, left it after I rethought it, suspected you for your discrediting me stance you took late yesterday and have since strengthened that read based off your response just now. I guess saying "I won't lynch anyone but Robz" is "tunnelly" and will give you a point there. But right now there isn't anyone near as scummy in this town compared to you, so I am voting for my scumread. I don't think anyone will be able to convince me of anyone else absent a result on you or someone else... but I will be willing to listen, I am always willing to listen. I don't play with blinders on as town or scum. You should know that at the least...
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I don't play with blinders on as town or scum. You should know that at the least...
I know you don't play with blinders as town, which is a good reason to not think you are town, because this...
vote: robz won't be moving it unless someone has a town result on him, which isn't very likely at all
... is the very definition of having out blinders on.
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put, not out^
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I don't play with blinders on as town or scum. You should know that at the least...
I know you don't play with blinders as town, which is a good reason to not think you are town, because this...
vote: robz won't be moving it unless someone has a town result on him, which isn't very likely at all
... is the very definition of having out blinders on.
You missed the "as scum or town" part apparently...
And what can I say? I think very strongly at this juncture that you are mafia. If another case presents a strong point or I see a stronger point I will change it... so I guess I should have said "won't be moving it unless there is a good reason to do so. But that sort of a statement is hard to make when worked up, frustrated and annoyed.
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You accuse me of "trying to push through your lynch" and then claim that later I will say "He is so scummy, that's why I lynched him." First off, I'm not really pushing through your lynch, it is the beginning of Day 1, I am not like demanding we insta-lynch, and I--unlike you--know that my mind could very well change. SO I think you're far too early to be accusing me of this.
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Worked up, frustrated, and annoyed is how I felt and acted when I was scum arguing with town!Voltaire in Modern Community. Tell me again how I am ModComm Robz in your analogy, instead of you.
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You accuse me of "trying to push through your lynch" and then claim that later I will say "He is so scummy, that's why I lynched him." First off, I'm not really pushing through your lynch, it is the beginning of Day 1, I am not like demanding we insta-lynch, and I--unlike you--know that my mind could very well change. SO I think you're far too early to be accusing me of this.
Because that is what you will do! It is what you do when you are scum. I am not saying you are demanding an insta-lynch, but if you are scum, that is exactly what you will say the next day when I flip town... I am just calling you out before you do it.
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Worked up, frustrated, and annoyed is how I felt and acted when I was scum arguing with town!Voltaire in Modern Community. Tell me again how I am ModComm Robz in your analogy, instead of you.
Because I am town... duh!
But really... you are taking a point from my argument and completely ignoring the rest. Being worked up, frustrated and annoyed is not indicative of alignment. You should know this again. See yourself in Game of Thrones... or me in Bankers... Sure you were those things in MC... I still don't know why as it was Voltaire that was being attacked from all angles and unfairly just for being right... but that is beside the point.
If you want me to make my point about MC again I will....
it is that you attack players that you feel threaten by or who are threatening your team. if there is a mafia method of operations for Robz this is it.
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But really... you are taking a point from my argument and completely ignoring the rest.
What I mean by this is that you are taking my comparison and finding reasons to spin it back at me, when my comparison is intended to be microspecific (see the post above) where you are taking it to the macro levels for who knows what reason...
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Your comparison just does not fit at all. In my opinion at least, I am not acting at all like I was Mod Comm. I was absolutely trying to discredit him here, and I was frsutrated at him. I repeated this in Toy Story, he easily caught me, and I vowed never to do it again. I'm spinning it back on you to show how ridiculous it is: It fits how yo are behaving here better than it fits me.
I'm not discrediting you here at all. Well I am now because your points against me aren't good. But initial all I was doing was calling attention to something I noticed: How you've acted toward me best fits a scum narrative. It's something I noticed because obviously I pay special attention to how people act toward me, I'm better at evaluating whether I think that's legitimate. So I brought it up, you didn't really address it--you addressed it better in your long post, thanks for that---that's all. You are like way way way jumping the gun on me like no town!yuma I have ever seen: Evaluating your actions is discrediting you, voting for you is pushing a lynch through on you so that I can later say "but we was so scummy," etc., and your vote on me is one it would take an investigation to end.
Not only would Voltaire agree with me, you would agree with me, if you weren't you right now.
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God I suck at the fast typing. LEt me rework that top sentence...
"Your comparison just does not fit at all. In my opinion at least, I am not acting at all like I was in Modern Comm. I was absolutely trying to discredit Voltaire there, and I was frustrated at him...
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So I brought it up, you didn't really address it--you addressed it better in your long post, thanks for that---that's all. You are like way way way jumping the gun on me like no town!yuma I have ever seen: Evaluating your actions is discrediting you, voting for you is pushing a lynch through on you so that I can later say "but we was so scummy," etc., and your vote on me is one it would take an investigation to end.
I addressed it plenty fine. You were the one who did respond to me....
And I think you are totally off base about this so-called "jumping the gun" which I think is a poor way to call someone reacting to bad points on them... I will always, and have always, responded aggressively to bad cases on me. That is my town meta (yes it is one I copy as scum) but it is one I have established as town... because bad cases on me are bad and either are put forward by town who are thinking incorrectly or by scum who are trying to get me mislynched. I maintain that there have been few "good" cases on me when I have been town.
The slip or something or other brought up against me initially in MXI is one example that I can think of off the top of my head.... I think voltaire also had some decent points about me in back to basics and I responded quite differently there as well--and had him as a town read--but I think if you go back and look at any situation where a bad case was presented against me I reacted very similarly to here.
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Well, this is to some extent a clash of stylesl I like to recognize "good"* cases even when they are against town me.
*In that they are well argued, consistent, and merited, though false.
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anyways... I really want to hear from other players on this subject... and probably won't have much more to say until then... specifically like I said before, faust and TA. I don't know they are town here (as Robz insinuated that I did) but regardless I want to hear from them.
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Well, this is to some extent a clash of stylesl I like to recognize "good"* cases even when they are against town me.
*In that they are well argued, consistent, and merited, though false.
Possibly... but I do think that these "good" cases don't often come up against me. Maybe I am just being arrogant, but I think part of this is why I rarely get mislynched. Good cases just don't get built on me when I am town. Far, far more often the cases on me are just bad... and then only way to respond to them is to be aggressive and assertively shoot them down for what they are.
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And I think you are totally off base about this so-called "jumping the gun" which I think is a poor way to call someone reacting to bad points on them... I will always, and have always, responded aggressively to bad cases on me. That is my town meta (yes it is one I copy as scum) but it is one I have established as town... because bad cases on me are bad and either are put forward by town who are thinking incorrectly or by scum who are trying to get me mislynched. I maintain that there have been few "good" cases on me when I have been town.
Well, I think it's not a bad case, and you responding aggressively negatively to something that I think has merit and is worth exploring (and I wish there were other people commenting on it!) only makes me think I'm more right and is possibly throwing off my read here, if that is indeed what's happening. I don't think you responding aggressively--this aggresively--is part of your town meta. Your vote for me is something I don't hink I've ever seen from you before.
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Well, I just found out the game was reopened and run into this thing with yuma and Robz. I'd have to homework it against yesterday to really conclude anything but my initial thought is these annoyingly protracted things are usually Town scuffles, no? As it is I have to get some sleep so I'll firm up a read on it tomorrow.
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Well, I just found out the game was reopened and run into this thing with yuma and Robz. I'd have to homework it against yesterday to really conclude anything but my initial thought is these annoyingly protracted things are usually Town scuffles, no?
Sometimes. Other times they're Town on scum and another scum reminds everyone that normally they're Town on Town.
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Your vote for me is something I don't hink I've ever seen from you before.
I would agree that it is unusual. But I also think the circumstances we are in are somewhat unusual. Look at what predicated it. I expressed as a general opening of day statement that you were among people that I had found scummier and wanted to look at more in depth.
You responded to that by distorting what I had said, voting for me and discrediting any future case that I would present. I had at the time a pretty good idea of what I would say, but I hadn't actually gone back and looked at it--nor have I completely--but it was how quickly you pre-emptively sought to undermine anything that I would say against you because I think you anticipated that I would come to the correct conclusion that you were scum. and you fear that and attacked before I could...
That is why I voted. Perhaps I stated it too strongly in that I wouldn't vote anywhere else for the entire day. But the circumstances that surround you and my vote for you are very strong in my eyes. Strong enough that I sincerely doubt there will be anything strong enough for me to change how I currently feel.
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yuma: initial impression is you are both town. Yuma over Robz...but I lean both town.
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So... yuma/pps/Twisted?
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Well, I read up on the Robz/yuma tiff and I got no string lean either way. If I got mod confirmation that one of them was scum and the other not and I had to pick which was scum I'd still say Robz. yuma's reaction seems consistent with harassed Town whereas Robz has the cool demeanor of a person completely in control of the situation feigning just the right degree and mix of indifference and resolve without taking the level of investment that yuma has. In other words, yuma has taken a very hazardous position for scum to take so early and Robz has merely exploited it.
I find it fascinating the Eevee wagon that popped up quickly with no real counter from Eevee himself or any other players. Talk about a too easy wagon...
And then, we have Sherlock Jimmmmm who has solved the scum teams and is going to let us all know which players are what roles as well. ::)
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And then, we have Sherlock Jimmmmm who has solved the scum teams and is going to let us all know which players are what roles as well. ::)
After you tell me what kind of fish you're after.
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Interestingly I find it hard to get alignment-tells from the yuma-robz fight. Usually I feel at least one party seems really towny when this happens, here I'm just puzzled and struggling to make a read.
Something feels off though, the events and yuma's certainty on robz don't see to fall in line, and Robz's sudden tone change after he realized how serious yuma was is in my opinion very unlike him.
It's a weird situation, but I'm leaning towards there being something fishy going on. I honestly don't know which of the two I'd like to pursue or how I'd do it though.
I'm also inherently more suspicious of people in my wagon today, TA seems "too" sure (and I know he is wrong) and archetype's vote felt "too easy", it's like "yeah I don't know but this lynch seems popular and safe).
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Interesting. I find it hard to tell what to take from this yuma/Robz fight. There are various options, each of which I want to give some sort of consideration.
Town/Town: Both players are putting themselves quite in the spotlight here. This is dangerous for scum. Especially dangerous in this setup, where active players may be a more natural target for Cops. Then again, Voltaire is dead, and I guess most of us are expecting Robz and yuma to lead the debate here. So their scum selves would also gain suspicion when staying in the background.
Town/Scum: (this means yuma town, Robz scum) yuma's case seems to be stronger to me, everything else aside. So I am more inclined to believe that yuma is town. He also seems to be up to something with asking specifically for TA's and my response. Something like that I expect from town more than scum.
Scum/Town: yuma is going after Robz pretty hard this game, which feels off. Maybe trying to get him mislynched? But I guess if mafia sensed that Robz poses a threat to them, they would have just killed him off. I find it hard to imagine that a scum player would focus on a single town member as a mislynch that much. So guess this is the option I find least likely.
Scum/Scum: Now this is an interesting possibility. Robz and yuma are strong players, as we know, and they know we know. If they are scum together, drawing an investigation seems very likely. So they have to do something about that. Hardcore bussing might help. Either they are perceived as a town/town fight (good for them), or one of them is lynched, and the other one gets the towncred. And this fight seems so strange that this could in fact be the case.
Anyway, vote: Robz seems best for now. The feeling I'm getting is interstingly: should Robz flip town, yuma is more likely to also be town, should he flip scum, it's more likely that yuma is also scum.
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yuma's case seems to be stronger to me, everything else aside.
yuma is going after Robz pretty hard this game, which feels off.
What do you mean by this?
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yuma's case seems to be stronger to me, everything else aside.
yuma is going after Robz pretty hard this game, which feels off.
What do you mean by this?
Well, if yuma's case against Robz was presented by someone other than yuma, I'd find it quite convincing. But yuma did already push for a Robz lynch D1, and this kind of consistency in reads I feel comes more often from scum than from town.
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Anyway, vote: Robz seems best for now. The feeling I'm getting is interstingly: should Robz flip town, yuma is more likely to also be town, should he flip scum, it's more likely that yuma is also scum.
Can I ask a serious question: Why do I get so little respect? Why is it always, "If we kill Robz, and he becomes confirmed town, let's make sure we completely ignore his opinion." I'm really getting sick of this, man.
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Robz, do you think you were arguing your points to yuma in a nontypical way (for yourself)? If yes, why do you think that is?
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Robz, do you think you were arguing your points to yuma in a nontypical way (for yourself)? If yes, why do you think that is?
Uh, no. Except I'm trying to stay away from hyperbole, because it hasn't served me well lately, even when I'm right.
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Robz, do you think you were arguing your points to yuma in a nontypical way (for yourself)? If yes, why do you think that is?
Uh, no. Except I'm trying to stay away from hyperbole, because it hasn't served me well lately, even when I'm right.
That's what I was referring to, I guess. You seem very levelheaded despite the heavy accusations. Actually I think if I have to take sides, I think your argument is more convincing than yuma's. Somehow this approach doesn't seem like scumRobz, you seem legitimately frustrated of being misunderstood.
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Robz, do you think you were arguing your points to yuma in a nontypical way (for yourself)? If yes, why do you think that is?
Uh, no. Except I'm trying to stay away from hyperbole, because it hasn't served me well lately, even when I'm right.
That's what I was referring to, I guess. You seem very levelheaded despite the heavy accusations. Actually I think if I have to take sides, I think your argument is more convincing than yuma's. Somehow this approach doesn't seem like scumRobz, you seem legitimately frustrated of being misunderstood.
Thanks. Yes, I am deliberately keeping myself calm and level-headed on purpose. That's because shrill, angry insistence has failed me lately, both in games where I was town (Chocolate Factory) and scum (Toy Story, Mod Comm sort of).
Also, while my cases are often based on "a feeling," this one is NOT. This one is based on evidence, and I think it's better than what yuma has offered.
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Also, while my cases are often based on "a feeling," this one is NOT. This one is based on evidence, and I think it's better than what yuma has offered.
Again with this "evidence" argument...
Might I remind you that there are still unanswered questions that I have put forward for you to address that you haven't regarding this so called "evidence" so before you start using that word, I suggest you actually go back and answer them. If you are town I hope you will see that your "evidence" is really just you forming an opinion incorrectly as you haven't fully looked at it from a town narrative at all (of course you might not come to this conclusion, but if you are town I would hope you would at least consider it and again hopefully come to the right conclusion). If you are scum I fully expect you to not even answer the questions and just keep saying I am mafia... So I kinda expect this request to just be ignored.
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Jeez. What are the questions that are so important you can't restate them.
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Jeez. What are the questions that are so important you can't restate them.
Sure... make me look like the bad guy.
I'll go find them...
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I'm not making you look like the bad guy, I just thought I had answered your questions. You were incensed that I hadn't explained specifically why your actions toward me were scummy, and I thought it was a self-evident but I elaborated on it already.
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Here they basically are:
He lists the things I did and then says the most plausible reason is that I am scum and creates a long rambling "narrative" for why it is scummy in a way that ultimately ends up at the conclusion of "it looks bad, you know?" He admits it could be a town narrative--but doesn't actually look to see if it could be... you know... someone who is trying to figure out if he is town? Maybe? Nah... Why even consider that? How did you know you weren't getting lynched? How did I know that? You still had about 4 votes on you and could have easily been lynched. Do I want to be voting for you or not? Do I want you lynched or not? Is it bad to have suspicion of someone but realize that they might not be the best lynch for that particular day?
.....
Because I am not interested in having an argument where he has already established that I am scum. He didn't even consider... or showed no effort aside from saying "Could this be a town narrative"... of looking at it from a townie narrative. So why should I respond to something if he provides nothing to respond to? I know it isn't a scummy narrative because I know I am not scum. If you want to argue about whether a particular point is scummy, ok, and I feel like I do just that and say "I am doing what I am doing at any given time what I think is best to find scum" and was very clear and focused on my points when I voted and unvoted earlier about my train of thought.
...
Oh, how dare you. I did NO such thing. What you did yesterday was remarkably scummy, right or wrong. And you didn't take one iota of heat for it.
if it was so scummy how come you weren't able to actually show that it was and how come no one else, which includes about 7 townies out there, haven't agreed with you?
1. I vote for you for LALL and leave it because better options come up. My suspicion of you was never extremely high, but enough to vote for you, especially as you had the largest wagon
2. I start a wagon on you based off a visceral reaction of you saying something that I didn't like... the idea that we couldn't lynch anyone else (turns out we could...) and saying you would hammer Ahoppy despite your previous statement.
3. I didn't kill the wagon. I don't have the power to kill the wagon. but I did express doubt about it once I actually thought about it and realized that my reaction was less logic based.
4. I say that you are scummy. I think this is your crux of your argument, but I don't see why it is scummy. Yeah... I have a scummier read on you, but I specifically state that I would rather lynch Eevee, Ahoppy and Teproc before you, so it can't be that strong of a scum read?
And why do I need to keep you around as a scum read if I am scum? What purpose does that serve? you say it is because I wanted to avoid being on a mislynch wagon and getting heat from that...? Then what was I doing on the Teproc wagon?
Restated:
1. Why haven't you considered the possibility of me being town from the original set of events that you put forward? Or if you have considered it, why haven't you shown that you consdired it publicly. It looks like you looked at the events and said "that is scummy, end of story" and didn't look at it at all.
2. Why should I respond to an argument that says I am scummy if there isn't anything there to show why it is scummy? (This was before you actually put forward a modium of effort and explained yourself... basically when you were "disappointed"
3. if your case is so strong why does no one agree with it? Are they all scum as well?
4. Why did you pre-emptively attack me at the beginning of today?
PPE:
go back and look at what you have responded to... you responded to very small segments of my quotes... basically whatever you could manipulate and spin into your favor (the MC comparisson for example) while completely ignoring the meat of my posts...) that is what is annoying. You are only responding to what you selectively choose to respond to an then say you have "evidence" when it is clear you haven't looked at the whole picture
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Restated:
1. Why haven't you considered the possibility of me being town from the original set of events that you put forward? Or if you have considered it, why haven't you shown that you consdired it publicly. It looks like you looked at the events and said "that is scummy, end of story" and didn't look at it at all.
I have considered the possibility of you being town. It's true that towniness can follow a chain of events that falsely paints them as scummy. I continue to think that very well may be the situation. Again, I have not tried to asherskize my case (coining that now!!!), it's just a case, not a certainty of any sort.
But! You have not helped me here. You've not really explained why it is logical for town!yuma to do the things you did. Instead, you've said, "Well, I'm not scum." Doesn't help me.
2. Why should I respond to an argument that says I am scummy if there isn't anything there to show why it is scummy? (This was before you actually put forward a modium of effort and explained yourself... basically when you were "disappointed"
I as putting forward more than a modicum of effort the whole time, but anyway, as you admit, this isn't actually a quetion anymore, since I did what you wanted.
3. if your case is so strong why does no one agree with it? Are they all scum as well?
I don't know. Certainly wouldn't be the first time my opinion was rejected by other townies! Of course if my case is right--and even if it isn't--scum may be helping you out here by taking your side. MAYBE. If no one else sees what I see I am certainly open to being wrong--again, I have not sworn to never unvote you. You did that.
4. Why did you pre-emptively attack me at the beginning of today?
I thought you were coming off the worse in your interchange with Jimm, and I hadn't really gotten to fully explore the things I raised about you yesterday.
PPE:
go back and look at what you have responded to... you responded to very small segments of my quotes... basically whatever you could manipulate and spin into your favor (the MC comparisson for example) while completely ignoring the meat of my posts...) that is what is annoying. You are only responding to what you selectively choose to respond to an then say you have "evidence" when it is clear you haven't looked at the whole picture
I don't think I'm manipulating what you are saying. Your counter-accusations are just so inapplicable that they are easy to pick apart.
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^shoot that's jumbled. Let me try again.
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Restated:
1. Why haven't you considered the possibility of me being town from the original set of events that you put forward? Or if you have considered it, why haven't you shown that you consdired it publicly. It looks like you looked at the events and said "that is scummy, end of story" and didn't look at it at all.
I have considered the possibility of you being town. It's true that towniness can follow a chain of events that falsely paints them as scummy. I continue to think that very well may be the situation. Again, I have not tried to asherskize my case (coining that now!!!), it's just a case, not a certainty of any sort.
But! You have not helped me here. You've not really explained why it is logical for town!yuma to do the things you did. Instead, you've said, "Well, I'm not scum." Doesn't help me.
2. Why should I respond to an argument that says I am scummy if there isn't anything there to show why it is scummy? (This was before you actually put forward a modium of effort and explained yourself... basically when you were "disappointed"
I as putting forward more than a modicum of effort the whole time, but anyway, as you admit, this isn't actually a quetion anymore, since I did what you wanted.
3. if your case is so strong why does no one agree with it? Are they all scum as well?
I don't know. Certainly wouldn't be the first time my opinion was rejected by other townies! Of course if my case is right--and even if it isn't--scum may be helping you out here by taking your side. MAYBE. If no one else sees what I see I am certainly open to being wrong--again, I have not sworn to never unvote you. You did that.
4. Why did you pre-emptively attack me at the beginning of today?
I thought you were coming off the worse in your interchange with Jimm, and I hadn't really gotten to fully explore the things I raised about you yesterday.
PPE:
go back and look at what you have responded to... you responded to very small segments of my quotes... basically whatever you could manipulate and spin into your favor (the MC comparisson for example) while completely ignoring the meat of my posts...) that is what is annoying. You are only responding to what you selectively choose to respond to an then say you have "evidence" when it is clear you haven't looked at the whole picture
I don't think I'm manipulating what you are saying. Your counter-accusations are just so inapplicable that they are easy to pick apart.
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Restated:
1. Why haven't you considered the possibility of me being town from the original set of events that you put forward? Or if you have considered it, why haven't you shown that you consdired it publicly. It looks like you looked at the events and said "that is scummy, end of story" and didn't look at it at all.
I have considered the possibility of you being town. It's true that towniness can follow a chain of events that falsely paints them as scummy. I continue to think that very well may be the situation. Again, I have not tried to asherskize my case (coining that now!!!), it's just a case, not a certainty of any sort.
But! You have not helped me here. You've not really explained why it is logical for town!yuma to do the things you did. Instead, you've said, "Well, I'm not scum." Doesn't help me.
Thanks... this is the main one I am interested... and maybe this whole thing boils down to a difference in style (it must if you are town... that is the only way I can think about this and is what I need to figure out).
Because for me... the onus is on the accuser. It isn't on the defender. I am not going to defend myself and spend a bunch of time on something when the person accusing me hasn't gone through the steps. I am just not. You are doing the accusing, so you need to do the work first. You didn't and so I refused to respond and to set up a "town narrative."
Maybe you feel like I should have started to defend myself and explained myself before you had shown me why it was scummy and if you feel that way... I must just disagree with you.
But!!! In fact I do feel like I have set up a town narrative for what happened once I understood what you were saying and accusing in full:
it is here:
I vote for robz (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9946.msg336685#msg336685) saying "I know Robz is somewhat VLA, but he still gets my vote. If he were in my shoes I think he would agree as he is totally for LALL..." and "Robz 1. is in that group of players 2. Lurking, which I think day1 is more scummy than townie, even with his VLA 3. had the most votes on him (or now has the most votes on him), and at this stage we need to get some wagons going so we can get that precious information you are so interested in to analyze later."
I then shortly leave the Robz wagon (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9946.msg336762#msg336762) for eevee because at that time I was more interested in the eevee wagon than the robz (they were both LALL in my book)
Eventually we get a point where Robz says he has intent to hammer Ahoppy (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9946.msg337623#msg337623) when Ahoppy is at L-1. Voltaire points out a discrepancy (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9946.msg337625#msg337625) between robz's actions and rob's words. Robz responds by saying:
And Eevee is the other wagon (and there's not enough traction for Teproc or chairs). So don't know why the surprise.
I mean it's like him or no one at this point.
To which I vote him... (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9946.msg337638#msg337638) I explain that vote here (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9946.msg337670#msg337670), saying that it was "more visceral and less logical" and that since it was based off a contradiction (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9946.msg337661#msg337661) it wasn't all that scummy once I thought about it. Anyways... Robz racks up about 4 votes and I unvote (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9946.msg337650#msg337650) and move to teproc.
As part of that process I still say that I have a suspicion of Robz (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9946.msg337670#msg337670) but that I preferred Ahoppy, Eevee or Teproc (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9946.msg337650#msg337650) over him.
That is the town narrative because it is what I did as town. I have explained my thought process and said why I did what I did. to me it is townie to change my mind, adapt to new information and seek out the best lynch despite having a somewhat decent scum read on you.
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I forgot to do a post count... so here is one a bit late...
1. Jimmmmm - 71
2. AHoppy - 32 "note hasn't posted today. I think VLA though."
3. Robz888 - 69
4. Twistedarcher - 103
5. Archetype - 41
7. yuma - 163
8. chairs - 21
9. Eevee - 34
10. faust - 68
11. scott_pilgrim - 15 "note hasn't posted today."
12. pingpongsam - 56
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So after a crazy weekend I am back, but I am way behind. I haven't read anything from this day yet. My VLA is over, but I won't get to this until tomorrow.
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Sorry I haven't posted in a while, I have been following along but have just felt really unsure of who I side with (if anyone). At least yuma has given a good explanation of his story from a town perspective. I feel like mostly Robz has been re-stating that he believes yuma's actions are scummy, without really giving much explanation. It's not immediately obvious to me that starting a wagon on someone and then dropping off it is a scum move, unless the wagon is on a scum partner, but clearly that's not what Robz is arguing for since that would mean he (Robz) is scum.
Anyway, I think there are some potential inconsistencies in yuma's posts that I'd like him to explain, but I'll need to dig up some quotes and re-read stuff first.
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1. I vote for you for LALL and leave it because better options come up.
First off, I have no idea what LALL stands for, I couldn't find it on mafiascum wiki or the mafia lingo thread, so I hope that doesn't change anything. Okay, from re-reading the voting mayhem at the end of day 1, I was under the impression that by voting Robz, your intent was to demonstrate to him that, yes it is possible to start a wagon right now this late in the day. When it gains momentum you say:
unvote that was fun and nice to serve a point, but I do prefer eevee, ahoppy and teproc over Robz...
The "serve a point" seems to be reference to the fact that Robz had stated it would be impossible to start a wagon this late. Your switch is not "because better options come up". Those options were already there, and in fact at the point of your unvote those options were weaker than they were before, since some of the people who had been voting them are now voting Robz. You switched your vote because you had never intended to lynch Robz in the first place, but now you have said that your switch was because better options came up.
Then we have this:
My suspicion of you was never extremely high, but enough to vote for you, especially as you had the largest wagon
Okay, so I'm still not under the impression from re-reading the end of D1 that your vote on him was because of your suspicion of him (though you are consistent with your saying that you had other targets you preferred), but that’s not my concern with this quote. My concern is that I don't understand you saying he had the largest wagon. Didn't you pretty much start that wagon? There was very little mention of lynching Robz. So you were the first one to really advocate lynching Robz, the wagon did not exist until you started it, and then you killed it by getting off when it started to pick up speed. That is not at all consistent with how you describe it in the quote above.
Actually with the second one I don't know why you would get it wrong regardless of whether you're scum or town, so I don't know what that says, maybe I'm just not understanding something. Still I would like to hear your explanation of those.
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Vote Count 2.1
Eevee (3): Twistedarcher, Jimmmmm, Archetype
yuma (1): Robz888
Robz888 (2): yuma, faust
Not Voting (5): AHoppy, chairs, Eevee, scott_pilgrim, pingpongsam
With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.
Day 2 ends February 7th, 12:00 AM.
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It is interesting how both scott and AHoppy start to post suddenly after being called out for not posting today...
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Well, I reconsidered, and I think lynching Robz here won't be any good. We don't want to lose our stronger players, and at some point someone will hopefully investigate yuma/Robz anyway. Reading the end of D1, I find it strange how AHoppy behaves towards the wagons on him and Teproc. At that point, voting Teproc was simply a self-preservation move for him. Yet he says the reason for his vote is that he finds the Teproc case convincing. I could see scum at work here, thinking a self-preservation argument is dangerous. Plus, looking at that vote count, AHoppy is a low poster.
Vote: AHoppy
I also think knowing AHoppy's alignment will be of great help analyzing D1.
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I think that someone with an investigation result should probably come out and claim now.
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This is like the one game I think ahoppy has been towny.
That being said, he has been town all the times I've thought he was scum.. Still, don't want to lynch him today.
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It is interesting how both scott and AHoppy start to post suddenly after being called out for not posting today...
This OTOH I do think is a legitimate strike against the scott and ahoppy.
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It is interesting how both scott and AHoppy start to post suddenly after being called out for not posting today...
This OTOH I do think is a legitimate strike against the scott and ahoppy.
This day opened way later than advertised so I missed the opening and then it was the weekend and I had a rough one. I'm not excusing scott or AHoppy but I am saying that if I can just now really participate then maybe it is the case for others as well.
I sense the Robz/yuma interaction to possibly be an attempt to increase post count while staying focused on a conundrum instead of actual deduction and hunting. In other words an effort to negate the legitimate complaint of lurking yesterday. Thus, I still prefer a Robz lynch as the yuma interaction has served to somewhat strengthen my convictions from yesterday.
The Eevee wagon interests me because of how it stalled yesterday and it seems to be picking up the same constituents today.
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No, what I found suspect is the fact the appeared right after being called out. You didn't until now, which seems more natural.
This is not a case by any means, as I said, a strike against them. Reading without posting is a scum trait.
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1. I vote for you for LALL and leave it because better options come up.
First off, I have no idea what LALL stands for, I couldn't find it on mafiascum wiki or the mafia lingo thread, so I hope that doesn't change anything. Okay, from re-reading the voting mayhem at the end of day 1, I was under the impression that by voting Robz, your intent was to demonstrate to him that, yes it is possible to start a wagon right now this late in the day. When it gains momentum you say:
Good questions, here are my answers...
LALL means Lynch all lurkers, literally. So at that point Robz was a lurker which for me automatically means he is somewhat high on the scummy radar day1 just because of that and I would be ok lynching him (as I would with the other lurkers, you aside as you were a new player and I don't like to lynch new players on day1 for out of game reasons)
unvote that was fun and nice to serve a point, but I do prefer eevee, ahoppy and teproc over Robz...
The "serve a point" seems to be reference to the fact that Robz had stated it would be impossible to start a wagon this late. Your switch is not "because better options come up". Those options were already there, and in fact at the point of your unvote those options were weaker than they were before, since some of the people who had been voting them are now voting Robz. You switched your vote because you had never intended to lynch Robz in the first place, but now you have said that your switch was because better options came up.
Yes I see what you are saying, but you are missing another quote from me that explains it:
:P I would not mind an actual Robz lynch but I guess we don't actually have enough people for that if yuma was lying? Eh.
I was never lying. My immediate response was to want to vote for Robz and I did, as is my want. My suspicion of him holds, but as I thought more about it I realized that my reaction was more visceral and less logical
So as I said, my first reaction was to vote robz because I found what he did to be scummy and was frustrated by his negative thinking--which I thought could be an excuse to hammer Ahoppy--enough so that I thought he became a better lynch candidate than ahoppy, eevee and teproc. But once I went back and rethought it, I felt it wasn't as strong as I thought originally and reverted back to where I was before wanting a lynch of one of the three.
Then we have this:
My suspicion of you was never extremely high, but enough to vote for you, especially as you had the largest wagon
Okay, so I'm still not under the impression from re-reading the end of D1 that your vote on him was because of your suspicion of him (though you are consistent with your saying that you had other targets you preferred), but that’s not my concern with this quote. My concern is that I don't understand you saying he had the largest wagon. Didn't you pretty much start that wagon? There was very little mention of lynching Robz. So you were the first one to really advocate lynching Robz, the wagon did not exist until you started it, and then you killed it by getting off when it started to pick up speed. That is not at all consistent with how you describe it in the quote above.
Actually with the second one I don't know why you would get it wrong regardless of whether you're scum or town, so I don't know what that says, maybe I'm just not understanding something. Still I would like to hear your explanation of those.
My first, LALL vote wasn't because I was very suspicious of him. It was because he was a lurker... it is hard to be suspicious of a lurker because they haven't posted anything--except to suspect them for lurking.
My second vote was because it was temporarily increased but like I said lessen once I started thinking... so if I graphed it... it would be a very low suspicion, dropped up very quickly and then dropped off again very quickly. So I consider that high suspicion at the time of more of an aberration than true suspicion if that makes sense.
Does that answer them?
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It is interesting how both scott and AHoppy start to post suddenly after being called out for not posting today...
I actually had no problem with it.
Ahoppy was VLA. So no problem with it there.
scott was interesting. But given what he posted immediately after actually inversts it to a larger town read for me. It shows that he was reading about the thread and thinking about it because he very quickly asked a set of "hard" questions... something that PS... no one else had done except for Robz. So I actually think it has more to do with his personal style--and perhaps being new in general--than it has to do with alignment.
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scott was interesting. But given what he posted immediately after actually inversts it to a larger town read for me. It shows that he was reading about the thread and thinking about it because he very quickly asked a set of "hard" questions... something that PS... no one else had done except for Robz. So I actually think it has more to do with his personal style--and perhaps being new in general--than it has to do with alignment.
Well, here I am thinking that people who read the thread and don't post are actually more scummy than people who don't read the thread.
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I reread the end of D1. AHoppy was at 6 votes + intent to hammer twice and still wasn't lynched. How does that even happen with town players?
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I think it depends on the person. I'm generally more conscious of making sure I post as scum, and I can easily find myself with nothing to say as either alignment.
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Quick thoughts on every player:
PPS - makes sense a lot, and has been very controversial. Even he admits he is good at fooling me, but got to go with a strongish town read.
yuma - we have an interesting "disagree on almost everything" - situation going, for the first time that I can recall. Not sure what to make of it, but I'm actually leaning scummier. On the other hand the picture is likely to get clearer via yuma dying or getting investigated.
Robz - I rarely see him as towny, but he feels sincere here. Town read.
Ahoppy - I think was prosecuted very undeservedly yesterday, and I still kind of don't get it. It's been shown earlier his posting style is longer and less frequent posts, he has been staying true to that and actually making a fair bit of sense. His posting style is hard to read for me, though, as he talks a lot of theory and isn't a very emotional player.
scott_pilgrim: Newer guys are always harder to read as there is no precedent, but they often make several "town slips" that scum simply wouldn't do, and Scott hasn't done that. I'm sort of PoE'ing (process of elimination) myself to a scum read here, watching closely how the situation develops.
TA: Has this vendetta against me, which I don't think I've deserved so it could be scum locking in on an easy target (at the time I was a big lurker and it's easy to keep contributing by shouting the same thing over and over again). I'm usually good at reading TA / we almost always see eye to eye, so I think this situation makes it more likely for him to be scum.
chairs: I've got nothing. I'm notoriously bad at getting reads on chairs, somehow he never splashes the water enough for me to notice I guess? This is totally a me thing, but I just don't have any impressions here.
faust: Well, I lean towny for generally reading situations similarly to myself and making sense, but not too strongly as they haven't been stances mafia couldn't take.
Jimmm: Despite the high post count, I have very little recollection of what he has actually said. I vaguely recall coming against me pretty hard, which at the time was understandable I guess. Generally starting as a high poster and then fading away is a bit scummy, but Jimmm has always been sporadic. Hoping for more controversy for an easier read, buddy!
Archetype: I didn't like how little qualms he had about voting me (I think he said something like "I might look into this more, but might as well). Generally my scumreads have this in common: they don't seem puzzled or like they are solving things, they proclaim things as truths and hope wagons form. Analyzing and pondering is towny to me.
That's just a stream of conscious "what pops to my head when I think about that player" list, hope someone gets something out of it / my views are a little clearer to everyone now.
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I reread the end of D1. AHoppy was at 6 votes + intent to hammer twice and still wasn't lynched. How does that even happen with town players?
I think this presents 2 strong possibilities:
scum!AHoppy - Everybody but scum and a few diehards were on the wagon.
town!AHoppy - All of scum was on that wagon and damned near enough town were on it to get a mislynch.
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scott was interesting. But given what he posted immediately after actually inversts it to a larger town read for me. It shows that he was reading about the thread and thinking about it because he very quickly asked a set of "hard" questions... something that PS... no one else had done except for Robz. So I actually think it has more to do with his personal style--and perhaps being new in general--than it has to do with alignment.
Well, here I am thinking that people who read the thread and don't post are actually more scummy than people who don't read the thread.
In general I agree. But I think that sort of person just says something like "well here are my reads on X" or "here is my pops quiz.. something, something, something" whereas scott instead posts a series of large thought out questions, as though he is reading and not posting because he is scum, but because he is trying to figure things out and determine what he wants to ask before he posts...
I just don't see the questions he asked me being the first thing he asks if he is scum. For me it is the kind of "newbie!town slip" that eevee mentioned just above. I guess eevee disagrees with me that this is just that as he has a scummy read on him, but like eevee said, we seem to be disagreeing on everything...
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I reread the end of D1. AHoppy was at 6 votes + intent to hammer twice and still wasn't lynched. How does that even happen with town players?
I think this presents 2 strong possibilities:
scum!AHoppy - Everybody but scum and a few diehards were on the wagon.
town!AHoppy - All of scum was on that wagon and damned near enough town were on it to get a mislynch.
AHoppy, since I presume that you would select the latter of the 2 possibilities if they were presented; who on your D1 wagon do you find scummy, and why?
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I reread the end of D1. AHoppy was at 6 votes + intent to hammer twice and still wasn't lynched. How does that even happen with town players?
I think this presents 2 strong possibilities:
scum!AHoppy - Everybody but scum and a few diehards were on the wagon.
town!AHoppy - All of scum was on that wagon and damned near enough town were on it to get a mislynch.
I asked myself the following:
If AHoppy were scum and scum were playing a bus for some distance who got off the wagon when it got too hot?
After some review I found only one answer: scott_pilgrim.
I am not really seeing a move to scumbus AHoppy because I would have expected to see more exodus as the vote count climbed. But, if there was a bus then scott_pilgrim was definitely the jumper.
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Unvote. Was a lurker, but he's been active today.
The way yuma backed off of the Robz lynch was scummy, and Robz is now back for D2 after being absent for the majority of D1 - a Town!Robz trait scum!Robz would be sure to duplicate. Honestly, I'd rather have a Cop investigate one or both of them. They are both strong Town players and it would be terrible if they were mislynched.
I'll Vote: scotty though. I think scum is more likely to hide in the background than be out in the spotlight, especially in a game like this. But he hasn't given any "Newbie Tells" like Eevee described, which is odd.
Despite my disagreement with a AHoppy lynch yesterday, I'm thinking more and more that he could be a good lynch.
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I'll Vote: scotty though. I think scum is more likely to hide in the background than be out in the spotlight, especially in a game like this. But he hasn't given any "Newbie Tells" like Eevee described, which is odd.
Despite my disagreement with a AHoppy lynch yesterday, I'm thinking more and more that he could be a good lynch.
Do you disagree that this (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9946.msg338788#msg338788) is a newbie tell?
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I'll Vote: scotty though. I think scum is more likely to hide in the background than be out in the spotlight, especially in a game like this. But he hasn't given any "Newbie Tells" like Eevee described, which is odd.
Despite my disagreement with a AHoppy lynch yesterday, I'm thinking more and more that he could be a good lynch.
Do you disagree that this (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9946.msg338788#msg338788) is a newbie tell?
Yes. It could be just how scotty plays. Overall, it's a weak excuse to vote for someone but I won't have time to reread individual scum tells until later this weak.
I have some pretty high Townreads on Faust and PPS though.
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I'll Vote: scotty though. I think scum is more likely to hide in the background than be out in the spotlight, especially in a game like this. But he hasn't given any "Newbie Tells" like Eevee described, which is odd.
Despite my disagreement with a AHoppy lynch yesterday, I'm thinking more and more that he could be a good lynch.
Do you disagree that this (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9946.msg338788#msg338788) is a newbie tell?
I agree with the people saying scotty is coming across strongly as newbie town. Archetype's is a very odd vote.
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Look at us agreeing on something....
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Yes indeed.
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I reread the end of D1. AHoppy was at 6 votes + intent to hammer twice and still wasn't lynched. How does that even happen with town players?
I think this presents 2 strong possibilities:
scum!AHoppy - Everybody but scum and a few diehards were on the wagon.
town!AHoppy - All of scum was on that wagon and damned near enough town were on it to get a mislynch.
I asked myself the following:
If AHoppy were scum and scum were playing a bus for some distance who got off the wagon when it got too hot?
After some review I found only one answer: scott_pilgrim.
I am not really seeing a move to scumbus AHoppy because I would have expected to see more exodus as the vote count climbed. But, if there was a bus then scott_pilgrim was definitely the jumper.
I don't really think this says anything. I mean, I guess I can see it from a scum perspective, but it also makes sense if I'm town. At the time I was just thinking, it's either AHoppy or Teproc, I think Teproc is more likely to be scum, and whichever one of them I vote for will be at 5 votes, so I picked the one I thought had a better chance.
Yuma: I find your responses to my questions to be mostly satisfactory, so thank you for that. :) (Which is not to say I think you're definitely town, but it helps clear up your perspective on everything.)
About me lurking: I agree that lurking is undesirable and can look scummy, I try to post more but sometimes just don't feel like trying to sort out my thoughts on everything. When someone else points it out then I feel like "shoot now I have to post something". The questions I posted last night were things I had been thinking about before, just didn't get around to posting, until someone pointed out that I hadn't posted yet so I felt like I should write up my thoughts and post it.
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Yeah, scotty moving to like strongest town read territory. That's just such a sincere self-summary. Really, really skilled if from first-time scum.
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I'm really sick of this "Oh scum show up when they get called out for posting" argument. I think it's a load of BS. It has happened to me in literally every single game I have played, and I have been town every time. This time, it had to do with my VLA and checking F.DS before heading to bed and seeing yuma's post. I had not read the thread yet, as I had said. I think this argument is an easy cop-out and easy mis-direction for scum, so a little FOS on faust and Arch for pushing it, but not voting material. You could say, they now have strikes in my book as well as I in theirs.
As for PPS: I'm going to go back and look at the people on my wagon and just give the first gut feelings I have because I was unexpectedly busy today and am now tired, but feel like I need to keep my promise of responding today. I have now read all of D2 (or skimmed some of the longer stuff). So here, about my wagon
Who was there:
Teproc, Robz, chairs, PPS, Jimmmmm
Teproc: town. Duh.
Robz: Slightly scummy, but I really don't know how to read Robz. When I've played with him I've always felt kinda intimidated by how intense he gets and just want to believe him because of that, and forget that I can't actually trust him. And I'm seeing a little bit of that here, especially in the yuma fight.
chairs: I really don't remember anything about chairs. He's got one post today (post #2 I think) and I get absolutely nothing from it. I remember getting a town vibe sometime yesterday sometime after I had voted for him, but I forget. Slightly scummy just based off of absence and lack of doing much memorable.
PPS: I find you slightly towny because you seem quite reasonable, but at the same time controversial... and you have been helpful to move the days along... But I haven't ever played with you, so I can't say much about that...
Jimmmmm: I found slightly scummy for dropping off the map yesterday once theory talk ended, but he has made a lot of sense today and has defended himself well from yuma early on
So to answer your question: scummy - Robz and chairs. But I really don't remember the circumstances in which they jumped on/off my wagon at times and I can't do an end of day re-read now.
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Jimmmmm looked happy to lunch either you or teproc, he technically jumped right after the hammer. If AHoppy is town then this can be construed as jubilant scum. Does scum want the hammer? Maybe so on that particular D1. Robz was looking for the hammer before the regrouping towards Teproc. chairs was a latecomer to the AHoppy wagon and his entire playstyle has been lurky durky to me. I waffled between AHoppy and Robz kind of sheeping into AHoppy because I wanted us to get in a D1 lynch and he was definitely my favorite over Teproc. I think I was earlier to the wagon than the others except maybe Jimmmmm. A lot of the origination to the wagon ended up on Teproc.
So, I would say that if scum was all piled onto town!AHoppy, which explains why it never fully lynched, that everyone on there including myself appears to be a candidate.
However, knowing my alignment to be Town, that means that either the entire scum team was sitting on AHoppy and Town was entirely devoted to mislynching Teproc or scum contributed to Teproc's demise which places AHoppy himself as a decent candidate for being scum.
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Yeah, scotty moving to like strongest town read territory. That's just such a sincere self-summary. Really, really skilled if from first-time scum.
I agree again. I would like eevee and archetype to specifically comment on this as they disagreed with me earlier on some things about scotty.
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Sorry, I'm like super behind and trying to find time/motivation to catch up.
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I'm also not getting the super-towny vibe from Scott, can someone explain it? Eloquent posts are nice and all but they don't always mean town, why should it mean that here?
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I'm also not getting the super-towny vibe from Scott, can someone explain it? Eloquent posts are nice and all but they don't always mean town, why should it mean that here?
It has very little to do with eloquence or length. It has to do with the content.
The first example is here: (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9946.msg338729#msg338729)
Now this was in direct response to me posting a post count (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9946.msg338722#msg338722). So there is that, but I contend (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9946.msg338788#msg338788) that a player who was directly called out for not posting doesn't post that sort of content, specifically probing, deep thought out questions that to me indicates more that he was not posting because he was "thinking" about the game and trying to figure it out as opposed to lurking and being afraid of posting. I think that a newbie scum who gets called out does a "reads" post or says something like "I am here, but don't really know what to say" or something like that.
The second example is here: (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9946.msg338949#msg338949)
Specifically the last paragraph. As robz says it does appear to be a very sincere self-summary about his "lurking" and I think it is more indicative of him doing exactly what I said, that he was thinking about it and trying to figure out what to do with the content before posting... this type of behavior is sometimes frowned upon here at f.ds and sometimes unfairly I think. But mostly, again, I think newbie scum doesn't say what he says about lurking or admitting that he had consistently been reading the thread and not posting. Newbie scum I think either says he wasn't lurking or says that him lurking wasn't bad and blows off the suspicion. Here he looks it square in the eyes, addresses it point blank and moves past it to a reasonable discussion about me.
So like Robz said. Either amazing newbie scum play (which is possible as from elsewhere I have noted scott being a pretty insightful guy in general, but we all know this game is certainly learned on a curve) or he is just being sincere town.
I lean pretty strongly toward the second especially as there hasn't been anything compelling to make me think otherwise.
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Vote: pps
A feeling more than anything else. I'll say more when I can, probably when I'm not at work.
I still support the Eevee lynch.
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I gave pps a re-read. I have more to say about him that I can't really now, but my main impression from him is that he's too self-aware.
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Meanwhile, I'm waiting for all those people who said "but we have to lynch someone so that we have stuff to analyze!" to come out and actually analyze stuff.
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Yeah, scotty moving to like strongest town read territory. That's just such a sincere self-summary. Really, really skilled if from first-time scum.
I agree again. I would like eevee and archetype to specifically comment on this as they disagreed with me earlier on some things about scotty.
Yeah, it looks honest, but I don't see why scum couldn't be honest about that as well. I guess I'll concede it was a post on the townier side, though.
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Meanwhile, I'm waiting for all those people who said "but we have to lynch someone so that we have stuff to analyze!" to come out and actually analyze stuff.
I did exactly this and now I'm "too self-aware" and must be guilty of something but we can't say what right now.
Vote: Jimmmmm
for spreading baseless suspicion.
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Meanwhile, I'm waiting for all those people who said "but we have to lynch someone so that we have stuff to analyze!" to come out and actually analyze stuff.
I did exactly this and now I'm "too self-aware" and must be guilty of something but we can't say what right now.
Vote: Jimmmmm
for spreading baseless suspicion.
The way I see it, the suspicion is not baseless, Jimmmmm just hasn't been able to post his reasons yet.
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Meanwhile, I'm waiting for all those people who said "but we have to lynch someone so that we have stuff to analyze!" to come out and actually analyze stuff.
I did exactly this and now I'm "too self-aware" and must be guilty of something but we can't say what right now.
Vote: Jimmmmm
for spreading baseless suspicion.
And this aggressive fighting against anyone who suspects you.
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Meanwhile, I'm waiting for all those people who said "but we have to lynch someone so that we have stuff to analyze!" to come out and actually analyze stuff.
I did exactly this and now I'm "too self-aware" and must be guilty of something but we can't say what right now.
Vote: Jimmmmm
for spreading baseless suspicion.
The way I see it, the suspicion is not baseless, Jimmmmm just hasn't been able to post his reasons yet.
Exactly. This is not the first time this game I have felt like my words have been twisted by pps.
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Nice setup. It appears to go like this:
"Let me announce in a shady way that I'm going to cast suspicion on you and when you look sideways at that I'll tell you that you twist my words so when I do get around to putting some case together on you your ability to argue against it is already neutralized because you know, we've already established that you're going to twist my words."
Why don't you just put the case out there without trying to set a foundation of suspicion first?
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Nice setup. It appears to go like this:
"Let me announce in a shady way that I'm going to cast suspicion on you and when you look sideways at that I'll tell you that you twist my words so when I do get around to putting some case together on you your ability to argue against it is already neutralized because you know, we've already established that you're going to twist my words."
I see what you did there.
[/quote]
Why don't you just put the case out there without trying to set a foundation of suspicion first?
[/quote]
I was at work. Now I am home, it is 1:20am and I am working on collecting my thoughts.
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(quotes fixed)
Nice setup. It appears to go like this:
"Let me announce in a shady way that I'm going to cast suspicion on you and when you look sideways at that I'll tell you that you twist my words so when I do get around to putting some case together on you your ability to argue against it is already neutralized because you know, we've already established that you're going to twist my words."
I see what you did there.
Why don't you just put the case out there without trying to set a foundation of suspicion first?
I was at work. Now I am home, it is 1:20am and I am working on collecting my thoughts.
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PPS and Jimmm are unlikely to be scum together.
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Why don't you just put the case out there without trying to set a foundation of suspicion first?
I was at work. Now I am home, it is 1:20am and I am working on collecting my thoughts.
Let me rephrase the question. Why did you feel it was necessary to announce suspicion when you knew you you couldn't actually put a case together at that time? What purpose did that serve over waiting until you could simply post the case without the lead-in?
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Here's some D1 data for you.
Voting patterns:
Jimmmmm: Eevee(1,RVS), Archetype(1), Eevee(4), AHoppy(5),Teproc(7)
faust: yuma(1), pps(1), No Lynch(1), pps(2), No Lynch(3), Teproc(1), chairs(2), Teproc(2)
pingpongsam: Robz(1,RVS), AHoppy(3), Robz(3), AHoppy(5)
Voltaire: scott(1,RVS), chairs(1), pps(3), AHoppy(1), Archetype(1), AHoppy(4), Robz(2), Teproc(4)
yuma: faust(1), No Lynch(2), Robz(3), Eevee(3), AHoppy(6), Robz(1), Teproc(2), Teproc(6)
Archetype: nkirbit/Teproc(1,RVS), chairs(1), Eevee(2), Robz(4), Eevee(3), Teproc(6)
Eevee: TA(1), Teproc(3)
Twistedarcher: pps(2), yuma(1), Eevee(1)
Teproc: yuma(2), chairs(2), Jimmmmm(1), AHoppy(4)
scott_pilgrim: No Lynch(2), TA(3), AHoppy(5), Teproc(5)
AHoppy: Robz(2), chairs(2), Teproc(5)
chairs: TA(2), AHoppy(2), yuma(1), AHoppy(4)
Robz: chairs(1), Teproc(1), AHoppy(5)
AHoppy wagon at peak (1): chairs, scott, Teproc, yuma, Voltaire, pps (Robz intent)
Robz wagon at peak: yuma, Archetype, Voltaire, pps
AHoppy wagon at peak (2): Robz, chairs, scott, Teproc, pps
Teproc wagon at peak: faust, Eevee, Voltaire, scott_pilgrim, Archetype, AHoppy, yuma
PPE: 5
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Let me rephrase the question. Why did you feel it was necessary to announce suspicion when you knew you you couldn't actually put a case together at that time? What purpose did that serve over waiting until you could simply post the case without the lead-in?
You accuse me of not scumhunting because I'm not directly stating my reads at the moment.
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Scummy looking players from their D1 voting patterns:
pingpongsam: only voted on bigger wagons.
Eevee: only voted two times.
scott: also only wagon votes.
Also, pps, for your theory that all scum were on the AHoppy wagon to be true, assuming you are town, the scum team would need to be chairs, scott, yuma.
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Scummy looking players from their D1 voting patterns:
pingpongsam: only voted on bigger wagons.
Eevee: only voted two times.
scott: also only wagon votes.
Also, pps, for your theory that all scum were on the AHoppy wagon to be true, assuming you are town, the scum team would need to be chairs, scott, yuma.
A) Often I was the only standing vote on Robz, so I disagree that I only voted on bigger wagons. If the Robz wagon got big it wasn't because I was going to it, I was already there. I did join AHoppy because he was my 2nd favorite lynch for D1 and there was already some steam on that one. So, yeah, I'm guilty for joining the already started wagon on AHoppy.
B) My theory is not that all of scum were on the Ahoppy wagon. I just put the analysis out there if that were the case. I suppose I never followed up by stating that it seems highly unlikely. I would say that it indicates more likely that Ahoppy may well be the scum we wanted to hit D1. I still reserve a vote for him today. Right now I'm more interested in looking at the interactions yesterday surrounding the AHoppy wagon which never happened. You, yourself pointed out how glaring that is. I'm not at the conclusion stage yet. I'm not even at the implicating stage yet. I'm just putting my analysis out there.
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Let me rephrase the question. Why did you feel it was necessary to announce suspicion when you knew you you couldn't actually put a case together at that time? What purpose did that serve over waiting until you could simply post the case without the lead-in?
You accuse me of not scumhunting because I'm not directly stating my reads at the moment.
When I said that I was highlighting that I had yet to directly implicate anyone specifically. The exact opposite of what you're doing here. Who is it that is twisting words?
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Let me rephrase the question. Why did you feel it was necessary to announce suspicion when you knew you you couldn't actually put a case together at that time? What purpose did that serve over waiting until you could simply post the case without the lead-in?
You accuse me of not scumhunting because I'm not directly stating my reads at the moment.
When I said that I was highlighting that I had yet to directly implicate anyone specifically. The exact opposite of what you're doing here. Who is it that is twisting words?
I never twisted anything. You're berating me for not saying something at a particular time, and I gave an example of when you have also kept something to yourself. Really it was a silly question. I was at work, kind of bored, had some time to read and post but not enough time to collect posts and give details. I had some thoughts, so I posted them. I'm not going to refrain from giving reads until I have time to post a detailed case.
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I have to say the last response deviates from where I perceived this to be going. It really felt like a total setup. Unvote I am interested to hear your case on me when you get the time to post it.
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I have to say the last response deviates from where I perceived this to be going. It really felt like a total setup. Unvote I am interested to hear your case on me when you get the time to post it.
That's very reasonable of you. I am partway through getting my thoughts together, but unfortunately it will have to wait for now.
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So, I really don't remember how PPS acts... I haven't played a game with him since Mafia VI. At least for me, it's very, very hard to tell if this is his run-of-the-mill town play, or what. He's very attacky.
Looking forward to actually seeing Jimm's case on him, I guess.
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So, I really don't remember how PPS acts... I haven't played a game with him since Mafia VI. At least for me, it's very, very hard to tell if this is his run-of-the-mill town play, or what. He's very attacky.
Looking forward to actually seeing Jimm's case on him, I guess.
This is a small thing, but I generally find these kind of statements a bit scummy. As town, I'm not so interested in having an opinion on everyone. This sort of absolves Robz from all responsibility as well if he is scum, he can now look at how the situation with PPS develops before committing to anything. Yea, town could post this, but it's way more convenient to scum, you know?
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Well, I don't have an opinion on PPS though.
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Well, I don't have an opinion on PPS though.
Right, and you wanted to tell us that.
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Ah, okay. Well yeah, I did.
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My girlfriend had to be hospitalized Monday, so, uhm... sorry I've been absent.
vote: yuma. I'm 90% sure that either yuma or robz is scum, and my gut is saying it's more likely yuma or both than robz alone (I could totally see the argument for both - this is exactly the kind of thing I'd expect from scum!yuma and scum!robz because it could look like TvT and at least could make one of them look -really- townie).
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My girlfriend had to be hospitalized Monday, so, uhm... sorry I've been absent.
vote: yuma. I'm 90% sure that either yuma or robz is scum, and my gut is saying it's more likely yuma or both than robz alone (I could totally see the argument for both - this is exactly the kind of thing I'd expect from scum!yuma and scum!robz because it could look like TvT and at least could make one of them look -really- townie).
you better explain your "gut before you leave...
(Also sorry to hear about your girlfriend, hope all is well)
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My girlfriend had to be hospitalized Monday, so, uhm... sorry I've been absent.
vote: yuma. I'm 90% sure that either yuma or robz is scum, and my gut is saying it's more likely yuma or both than robz alone (I could totally see the argument for both - this is exactly the kind of thing I'd expect from scum!yuma and scum!robz because it could look like TvT and at least could make one of them look -really- townie).
you better explain your "gut before you leave...
well so much for that... I am not at all pleased with this drop in and vote based off a gut feel and not saying anything about it despite being specifically asked to do so...
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I'm alive! Past couple of days have been chock full of appointments and meetings.
quote author=Eevee link=topic=9946.msg339351#msg339351 date=1390988431]
Yeah, scotty moving to like strongest town read territory. That's just such a sincere self-summary. Really, really skilled if from first-time scum.
I agree again. I would like eevee and archetype to specifically comment on this as they disagreed with me earlier on some things about scotty.
Yeah, it looks honest, but I don't see why scum couldn't be honest about that as well. I guess I'll concede it was a post on the townier side, though.
[/quote]
I agree that it's honest, but, like Yuma said, scotty is an insightful and analytical person outside the game as well. So I still lean possible scum. Still haven't done that reread of him like I wanted.
I also really want to know AHoppy's alignment. As Faust pointed out, it is would be an important scum hunting tool and could possibly catch scum. If this was a Mountainous game, I'd argue for his lynch purely for info even though I have a townread on him. But since we have some Cops, I'd rather them investigate him then lynch him. So he's not my top pick for today's lynch.
Jimmmmm's vote for PPS was weak sauce, but PPS's OMGUS vote was weak as well. As such, I'm hesitant to agree with Eevee that they can't be a scum pair.
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Woops. I think that still makes sense.
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My girlfriend had to be hospitalized Monday, so, uhm... sorry I've been absent.
vote: yuma. I'm 90% sure that either yuma or robz is scum, and my gut is saying it's more likely yuma or both than robz alone (I could totally see the argument for both - this is exactly the kind of thing I'd expect from scum!yuma and scum!robz because it could look like TvT and at least could make one of them look -really- townie).
you better explain your "gut before you leave...
(Also sorry to hear about your girlfriend, hope all is well)
Uh, yeah, I mean I don't really like this either. I'm NEVER a fan of attaching percentages to things arbitrarily. Like, just about 90% of such statements turn out to be totally wrong (see what I did there?). Seriously, though. I'm not even close to 90% sure yuma is scum, and I gave like actual reasons for voting him.
(Sorry things are rough for you, hope it's all okay!)
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vote: archetype
that was a scummy scummy post.
people assigning percentages arbitrarily is like my biggest pet peeve ever, and chairs never struck to me as someone who'd be guilty of it. why so sure, chairs?
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vote: archetype
that was a scummy scummy post.
people assigning percentages arbitrarily is like my biggest pet peeve ever, and chairs never struck to me as someone who'd be guilty of it. why so sure, chairs?
Can you explain how Archetype's post was scummy?
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Right now, I think there's three people I want to know the alignment of: Robz, yuma, AHoppy. The question is: Do we wait for Cops to investigate, or do we lynch one of them to find out? I lean towards a lynch. And of those, AHoppy still seems best, because Robz and yuma help to push the game along, and I think an AHoppy lynch gives the most information. I also believe that as town, he would have been lynched D1.
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vote: archetype
that was a scummy scummy post.
people assigning percentages arbitrarily is like my biggest pet peeve ever, and chairs never struck to me as someone who'd be guilty of it. why so sure, chairs?
Can you explain how Archetype's post was scummy?
Not for the likes of you!
..just kidding, of course. One of the reasons has got to do with an ongoing game though, so can't give you that.
- his stance on scott is just combining what yuma and me said. Nothing original there, and leaves all doors open for archetype to join or not join that wagon later.
-he calls jimm's vote on PPS weak, even though Jimm has said there is a case coming soon. How can you know before seeing the case?
It is noteworthy that fights like the one PPS and Jimmm had usually don't die on their own like that.
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It is noteworthy that fights like the one PPS and Jimmm had usually don't die on their own like that.
I didn't know it was dead. Apparently Jimmmmm is still "gathering his thoughts"... I'm guessing he had a brain hernia along the way.
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It is noteworthy that fights like the one PPS and Jimmm had usually don't die on their own like that.
I didn't know it was dead. Apparently Jimmmmm is still "gathering his thoughts"... I'm guessing he had a brain hernia along the way.
Yeah it was painful.
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It is noteworthy that fights like the one PPS and Jimmm had usually don't die on their own like that.
I didn't know it was dead. Apparently Jimmmmm is still "gathering his thoughts"... I'm guessing he had a brain hernia along the way.
There was unvoting and we are still experiencing a noticeable lull in the "no YOU are scum" - department.
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Right now, I think there's three people I want to know the alignment of: Robz, yuma, AHoppy. The question is: Do we wait for Cops to investigate, or do we lynch one of them to find out? I lean towards a lynch. And of those, AHoppy still seems best, because Robz and yuma help to push the game along, and I think an AHoppy lynch gives the most information. I also believe that as town, he would have been lynched D1.
Agree with the list and the sentiment that we should forge a lynch on any one of the three. Does an AHoppy flip resolve the Robz/yuma split? yuma looked ready to lynch AHoppy well ahead of Teproc. Robz was willing to hammer AHoppy.
yuma was voting all over the place yet no one else in the trifecta as voting for yuma.
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My girlfriend had to be hospitalized Monday, so, uhm... sorry I've been absent.
vote: yuma. I'm 90% sure that either yuma or robz is scum, and my gut is saying it's more likely yuma or both than robz alone (I could totally see the argument for both - this is exactly the kind of thing I'd expect from scum!yuma and scum!robz because it could look like TvT and at least could make one of them look -really- townie).
you better explain your "gut before you leave...
(Also sorry to hear about your girlfriend, hope all is well)
I didn't even see this before I left, sorry. Not much to explain, it's intuition. It's like every time I read your argument with Robz my brain has a light going "WARNING: SCUM".
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Still working on my pps thoughts, which is a testament to the limited time and effort I have to spend on this rather than the comprehensiveness of the final result.
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I don't have a problem with people assigning percentages to things; it's just a way of giving a rough quantification of your confidence. 90% is like, really, really sure though, about something that's just intuition. Without any information, there's just over a 50% chance both are town, so if you're going to bump that percentage all the way down to 10% I think you need some very good reasons.
I am also not liking people dropping in and voting for someone, and then saying "I'll explain later". It looks like a way of trying to get other people thinking about that person, so that you don't look like the one who started it. I think it is to your advantage to wait until you can post your thoughts on someone before voting for them.
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Vote Count 2.2
Eevee (1): Twistedarcher
yuma (2): Robz888, chairs
Robz888 (1): yuma
AHoppy (1): faust
scott_pilgrim (1): Archetype
pingpongsam (1): Jimmmmm
Archetype (1): Eevee
Not Voting (3): AHoppy, scott_pilgrim, pingpongsam
With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.
Day 2 ends February 7th, 12:00 AM.
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I don't have a problem with people assigning percentages to things; it's just a way of giving a rough quantification of your confidence. 90% is like, really, really sure though, about something that's just intuition. Without any information, there's just over a 50% chance both are town, so if you're going to bump that percentage all the way down to 10% I think you need some very good reasons.
I am also not liking people dropping in and voting for someone, and then saying "I'll explain later". It looks like a way of trying to get other people thinking about that person, so that you don't look like the one who started it. I think it is to your advantage to wait until you can post your thoughts on someone before voting for them.
To me, 90% means, if this exact same thing happened, you would be right 9 out of 10 times. The problem is that very rarely is the person make that claim correct in that specific case. See other games for many, many examples of this.
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I don't have a problem with people assigning percentages to things; it's just a way of giving a rough quantification of your confidence. 90% is like, really, really sure though, about something that's just intuition. Without any information, there's just over a 50% chance both are town, so if you're going to bump that percentage all the way down to 10% I think you need some very good reasons.
I am also not liking people dropping in and voting for someone, and then saying "I'll explain later". It looks like a way of trying to get other people thinking about that person, so that you don't look like the one who started it. I think it is to your advantage to wait until you can post your thoughts on someone before voting for them.
I second all that is said here. But I've realized that some people have a different opinion on the circumstances in which you can say "I am 90% sure" (or "I am 100% sure", for that matter).
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I love people assigning percentages to things. I hate having to guess what level of certainty those percentages actually represent because some people say they are 90% or 99% sure on every little hunch they get.
As in, for chairs' "90% certainty" to mean anything to me, he'd have to have a pretty damn convincing reason for it. "A gut read" with no further specification just makes the whole thing seem sketchy after seeming so confident at first.
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I kind of took it as "I have very little compelling me to look outside my gut feeling".
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So just checking in and throwing my thoughts down while I catch up. Life has been crazy and my motivation to play mafia has decreased significantly, I'm really sorry about that. Anyways, heres my inner monologue during my catch up:
I agree with yuma that the thought out post from scott does make him look rather towny. I'm going to lean town on him
I'm not really sure what Jimmmm means about PPS being too self-aware...
PPS is however still being aggressive, but I'm not really sure what to think of that. I know my experiences with Robz are that when he is aggressive he is scum. But, I think that was only the one experience. And Robz, not PPS. So, in conclusion, not really anything to take away from that... I do kinds of think that expecting the worst from everybody is kind of a town trait, because as town, you suspect everyone as being scum. I feel like that would be harder as scum, but I don't really know... slight town points there?
Eevee: Why do you say that PPS and Jimmmm are unlikely to be scumpartners?
I'm also still not sure about PPS' whole "all scum was probably on AHoppy scenario". I don't get why they would all be on my wagon... Town can be horribly wrong, all the time. I know in my previous games, I have made many bad reads on town players. I was 100% convinced Archetype was scum but he wasn't. So what I'm saying is that enough of town could have been wrong to only have 1-2 scum on me.
@996 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9946.msg339420#msg339420) PPS: you presented your theory as if it were the only case:
I reread the end of D1. AHoppy was at 6 votes + intent to hammer twice and still wasn't lynched. How does that even happen with town players?
I think this presents 2 strong possibilities:
scum!AHoppy - Everybody but scum and a few diehards were on the wagon.
town!AHoppy - All of scum was on that wagon and damned near enough town were on it to get a mislynch.
I'm going to have to agree with Eevee, Robz post there does look a little scummy. It looks more like a "hey I'm still here" kind of post that doesn't really further any conversation.
@ [urlhttp://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9946.msg339649#msg339649]#1014[/url]I'm actually in agreement with you faust, even if it means my death. In this game specifically, we have no idea if we even have a cop tonight. Or if we had one last night. One of our cops died, and if we only have what, 4-6? so that means we have 3-5 left with no guarantee that the investigations will happen tonight. I'm not up to running the numbers on it, but I do like a definite way (lynch) to find out an alignment as opposed to a gamble (which, you then have to rely also on the cop's judgement of who to investigate...)
No faulting Jimmmm for not posting his argument yet, I've been there.
Still like scotty, he brings up the real problem with chairs vote on yuma: 90% being super confident for a gut.
and that looks like I'm caught up. I'm still really not sure what to think of yuma vs. Robz, but with PPS vs. Jimmmm, I'm thinking less and less that it is Town v. Town, because the fight didn't escalate out of control. PPS just kind of dropped it. I mean, PPS could be right that this is an elaborate setup, but I also generally think that when people say they have issues IRL keeping them from it, then they do. So, I think this makes PPS look scummier because it looks like he doesn't want to step on any toes, even though he is more combative than most of us. Come to think of it, I think I can actually throw a vote down for this. Vote: PPS
(Cringe as I incur his wrath)
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Apologies for the link fail. That's supposed to go here (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9946.msg339649#msg339649)
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vote: archetype
that was a scummy scummy post.
people assigning percentages arbitrarily is like my biggest pet peeve ever, and chairs never struck to me as someone who'd be guilty of it. why so sure, chairs?
Can you explain how Archetype's post was scummy?
Not for the likes of you!
..just kidding, of course. One of the reasons has got to do with an ongoing game though, so can't give you that.
- his stance on scott is just combining what yuma and me said. Nothing original there, and leaves all doors open for archetype to join or not join that wagon later.
-he calls jimm's vote on PPS weak, even though Jimm has said there is a case coming soon. How can you know before seeing the case?
It is noteworthy that fights like the one PPS and Jimmm had usually don't die on their own like that.
- Well, yeah I suppose. I guess that's what I get to offer for lurking - outdated information.
- Because it was weak. I think the reasons Jimmmmm's likely to provide (PPS not making any sense) are weak as well.
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My girlfriend had to be hospitalized Monday, so, uhm... sorry I've been absent.
vote: yuma. I'm 90% sure that either yuma or robz is scum, and my gut is saying it's more likely yuma or both than robz alone (I could totally see the argument for both - this is exactly the kind of thing I'd expect from scum!yuma and scum!robz because it could look like TvT and at least could make one of them look -really- townie).
you better explain your "gut before you leave...
(Also sorry to hear about your girlfriend, hope all is well)
I didn't even see this before I left, sorry. Not much to explain, it's intuition. It's like every time I read your argument with Robz my brain has a light going "WARNING: SCUM".
See and when I read your post here my brain has a light going "WARNING: PURE BULL CRAP".
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I mean... at the least you could pinpoint which of the posts of mine you read (or was it every single one? If that is the case there should be something more specific you can say) that gave your gut a scummy feeling (are you sure it just wasn't something that you ate? maybe you should read it again after eating some crackers and drinking a seltzer) and then we can at least try to infer what you found so scummy that you are 90% sure...
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I think the reasons Jimmmmm's likely to provide (PPS not making any sense) are weak as well.
Pre-empting what someone is going to say and preconceiving it as weak is bad play at best.
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I'm also still not sure about PPS' whole "all scum was probably on AHoppy scenario". I don't get why they would all be on my wagon... Town can be horribly wrong, all the time. I know in my previous games, I have made many bad reads on town players. I was 100% convinced Archetype was scum but he wasn't. So what I'm saying is that enough of town could have been wrong to only have 1-2 scum on me.
@996 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9946.msg339420#msg339420) PPS: you presented your theory as if it were the only case:
I reread the end of D1. AHoppy was at 6 votes + intent to hammer twice and still wasn't lynched. How does that even happen with town players?
I think this presents 2 strong possibilities:
scum!AHoppy - Everybody but scum and a few diehards were on the wagon.
town!AHoppy - All of scum was on that wagon and damned near enough town were on it to get a mislynch.
Yeah, well, I think it is unlikely all of scum was on your wagon, too. Which logically results in you being scum. Do you have a better answer to faust's question? Funnyy ou pick on me for answering it but do not propose an alternative answer yourself.
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It's fascinating to me that Jimmmmm did the most obviously scummy thing this entire game and when I gave him the leeway to do what he said he would do I caught votes for it. Yet, Jimmmmm hasn't bothered to do what he said he would do. Why am I catching the heat for Jimmmmm's unabashedly scummy behavior?
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It's fascinating to me that Jimmmmm did the most obviously scummy thing this entire game and when I gave him the leeway to do what he said he would do I caught votes for it. Yet, Jimmmmm hasn't bothered to do what he said he would do. Why am I catching the heat for Jimmmmm's unabashedly scummy behavior?
What have I done that's "unabashedly scummy"?
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It's fascinating to me that Jimmmmm did the most obviously scummy thing this entire game and when I gave him the leeway to do what he said he would do I caught votes for it. Yet, Jimmmmm hasn't bothered to do what he said he would do. Why am I catching the heat for Jimmmmm's unabashedly scummy behavior?
What have I done that's "unabashedly scummy"?
That whole thing where you say this guy over here is probably scum I can just feel it and I'll tell ya'll 'bout it later and then never actually do so. I called it baseless suspicion. Arguments came out that the base was forthcoming so it must not be baseless. Well no base came forth so it is in fact baseless suspicion being cast about which is unabashedly scummy. When does Town spread baseless suspicion with no case to back it up?
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It's fascinating to me that Jimmmmm did the most obviously scummy thing this entire game and when I gave him the leeway to do what he said he would do I caught votes for it. Yet, Jimmmmm hasn't bothered to do what he said he would do. Why am I catching the heat for Jimmmmm's unabashedly scummy behavior?
What have I done that's "unabashedly scummy"?
I agree with pps. Until you present your case the lack thereof is default scummy. Now that doesn't necessarily make you mafia, but in general it is scummy behavior in the same way that lurking through a game is default scummy. We know you are busy and respect that, but until you actually present something we have to assume that you actually have nothing because there is nothing to contradict that base assumption. Once you do, then we can readjust our opinion depending on what is given.
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It's fascinating to me that Jimmmmm did the most obviously scummy thing this entire game and when I gave him the leeway to do what he said he would do I caught votes for it. Yet, Jimmmmm hasn't bothered to do what he said he would do. Why am I catching the heat for Jimmmmm's unabashedly scummy behavior?
furthermore I also echo this. FOS the voters of PPS during this time period I think... (I could also potentially see it as pre-emptively joining a wagon in anticipation of a case being made to get on the wagon early)
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It's fascinating to me that Jimmmmm did the most obviously scummy thing this entire game and when I gave him the leeway to do what he said he would do I caught votes for it. Yet, Jimmmmm hasn't bothered to do what he said he would do. Why am I catching the heat for Jimmmmm's unabashedly scummy behavior?
What have I done that's "unabashedly scummy"?
That whole thing where you say this guy over here is probably scum I can just feel it and I'll tell ya'll 'bout it later and then never actually do so. I called it baseless suspicion. Arguments came out that the base was forthcoming so it must not be baseless. Well no base came forth so it is in fact baseless suspicion being cast about which is unabashedly scummy. When does Town spread baseless suspicion with no case to back it up?
That's some major twisting there. Here's what I actually said:
Vote: pps
A feeling more than anything else. I'll say more when I can, probably when I'm not at work.
I still support the Eevee lynch.
I gave pps a re-read. I have more to say about him that I can't really now, but my main impression from him is that he's too self-aware.
I never said that you were "probably scum" and I never tried to convince anyone to vote for you. I was getting a scummy vibe from you so I voted for you, then I re-read you and said the impression that I got from you and that I had more to say. That was less than 48 hours ago. There are still 7-8 days left until deadline. I'll say what I have to say when I'm good and ready to say it.
Also, suspicion in this game is never baseless. With 3 scum in 10 people (excluding me), I'm starting from a base of 30% chance of you being scum.
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I'll say what I have to say when I'm good and ready to say it.
Also, suspicion in this game is never baseless. With 3 scum in 10 people (excluding me), I'm starting from a base of 30% chance of you being scum.
Fair enough, but don't get mad at us when we suspect you (or are at least wary of you) for not posting what that stuff is because like I said if you don't post it we have to assume there isn't anything actually there...
And there is baseless suspicion in this game. Scum has to do have baseless suspicion... that is how they win! because they know someone is town and have to figure out a way to get them lynched based off stuff that from their "point of view" is baseless... that is what the rest of us are trying to figure out (well at least I am)... is Jimmmm trying to get PPS mislynched? I can't start to figure that out until you post your reasons, so until you start doing so I start at the baseline of "scummy"
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It's fascinating to me that Jimmmmm did the most obviously scummy thing this entire game and when I gave him the leeway to do what he said he would do I caught votes for it. Yet, Jimmmmm hasn't bothered to do what he said he would do. Why am I catching the heat for Jimmmmm's unabashedly scummy behavior?
What have I done that's "unabashedly scummy"?
That whole thing where you say this guy over here is probably scum I can just feel it and I'll tell ya'll 'bout it later and then never actually do so. I called it baseless suspicion. Arguments came out that the base was forthcoming so it must not be baseless. Well no base came forth so it is in fact baseless suspicion being cast about which is unabashedly scummy. When does Town spread baseless suspicion with no case to back it up?
That's some major twisting there. Here's what I actually said:
Vote: pps
A feeling more than anything else. I'll say more when I can, probably when I'm not at work.
I still support the Eevee lynch.
I gave pps a re-read. I have more to say about him that I can't really now, but my main impression from him is that he's too self-aware.
I never said that you were "probably scum" and I never tried to convince anyone to vote for you. I was getting a scummy vibe from you so I voted for you, then I re-read you and said the impression that I got from you and that I had more to say. That was less than 48 hours ago. There are still 7-8 days left until deadline. I'll say what I have to say when I'm good and ready to say it.
Also, suspicion in this game is never baseless. With 3 scum in 10 people (excluding me), I'm starting from a base of 30% chance of you being scum.
I'm not seeing the twist. When you vote someone you are effectively saying "this guy is probably scum". Just because you don't type the words out doesn't mean that is not the message you just broadcast. You maintain a vote on me so you maintain that message right now, that is, you continue to say it without typing it. You did say it was just a feeling.
I'm the one who never said that you said anything about trying to convince others to vote for me. You brought that in here as words to put in my mouth.
Who is twisting who again?
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yuma, I totally agree with your last 3 posts. What I disagree with is that my not posting my thoughts on pps within a couple of days of saying I will is "the most obviously scummy thing this entire game" or "unabashedly scummy behavior".
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yuma, I totally agree with your last 3 posts. What I disagree with is that my not posting my thoughts on pps within a couple of days of saying I will is "the most obviously scummy thing this entire game" or "unabashedly scummy behavior".
Maybe not the most obviously scummy thing... well certainly not.
But it is scummy behavior. Unabashedly... well I can see where pps is coming from if he is town because having been in that situation--goodness I am practically in that situation with chairs--before it is 1. frustrating to not be able to respond to a reason why someone is voting for you and 2. it is natural to react to someone voting for you when you are town with a scummy vibe toward them, not always correctly, but certainly natural given the nature of the game. This is compounded when a reason isn't put forward. So I don't really have a problem with pps feeling that way, especially as he has been waiting and even unvoted you in anticipation of your case.
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This should be a fun exercise then.
Everyone please list the most obviously scummy behavior they have witnessed in this game to date.
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This should be a fun exercise then.
Everyone please list the most obviously scummy behavior they have witnessed in this game to date.
Robz pre-emptively attacking me in anticipation of me making a case on him (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9946.msg338514#msg338514) is still at the top of my list.
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Probably Yuma backing off on the Robz wagon. But I'm actually been leaning Town on Yuma from his last few posts.
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It's fascinating to me that Jimmmmm did the most obviously scummy thing this entire game and when I gave him the leeway to do what he said he would do I caught votes for it. Yet, Jimmmmm hasn't bothered to do what he said he would do. Why am I catching the heat for Jimmmmm's unabashedly scummy behavior?
What have I done that's "unabashedly scummy"?
That whole thing where you say this guy over here is probably scum I can just feel it and I'll tell ya'll 'bout it later and then never actually do so. I called it baseless suspicion. Arguments came out that the base was forthcoming so it must not be baseless. Well no base came forth so it is in fact baseless suspicion being cast about which is unabashedly scummy. When does Town spread baseless suspicion with no case to back it up?
That's some major twisting there. Here's what I actually said:
Vote: pps
A feeling more than anything else. I'll say more when I can, probably when I'm not at work.
I still support the Eevee lynch.
I gave pps a re-read. I have more to say about him that I can't really now, but my main impression from him is that he's too self-aware.
I never said that you were "probably scum" and I never tried to convince anyone to vote for you. I was getting a scummy vibe from you so I voted for you, then I re-read you and said the impression that I got from you and that I had more to say. That was less than 48 hours ago. There are still 7-8 days left until deadline. I'll say what I have to say when I'm good and ready to say it.
Also, suspicion in this game is never baseless. With 3 scum in 10 people (excluding me), I'm starting from a base of 30% chance of you being scum.
I'm not seeing the twist. When you vote someone you are effectively saying "this guy is probably scum".
False. I don't know why you do what you do, but there are many reasons to vote for someone in this game. It's relatively rare for me to get to the point of believing someone is "probably" (ie >50%) scum in the first couple of Days. Other reasons to vote include, but are not limited to: seeing how they will react, seeing how others will react, helping the most viable lynch go through because it's better than nothing, helping your preferred viable lynch go through because it's better than the alternative, trying to help the game progress because it's stalling.
If you concluded more than I meant from my vote, I can understand that. But all I said was I have a feeling, and I had more to say. I never said it was a case, just that I had more to say.
I'm the one who never said that you said anything about trying to convince others to vote for me. You brought that in here as words to put in my mouth.
Who is twisting who again?
Well it gets a bit ridiculous at this point because I never said you said I said anything about trying to convince others to vote for you. I was simply pointing out that I didn't try to start a wagon or spread suspicion on you based simply on the little I had said.
Anyway, I apologise for the delay in posting my thoughts. It hasn't been that long, but it's been longer than I intended. In the meantime, this discussion is a bit pointless. I'm not going to say any more about it until I'm at home and have time to finish and post what I have to say.
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This should be a fun exercise then.
Everyone please list the most obviously scummy behavior they have witnessed in this game to date.
Robz pre-emptively attacking me in anticipation of me making a case on him (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9946.msg338514#msg338514) is still at the top of my list.
I simply never did this, and the post you link to provides no evidence of me doing this. And I was just starting to read you as more townie! Seriously, I was, because I agree with you on scotty, and something else I can't recall, and oh I'm big time agreeing with you and I guess PPS on Jimm. Looks to me like Jimm wanted to be voting for someone, and now can't justify the vote he laid down, and is flailing.
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For reference, the reason that I am 90% sure about my "gut intuition" moment is that it's been much more reliable when I play Mafia on f.ds than any attempt I've made at "okay, this guy said that, and this looked kind of bad, and..." scumhunting. That's why when it happens to be the case that I get that gut check reaction, I just go with it.
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For reference, the reason that I am 90% sure about my "gut intuition" moment is that it's been much more reliable when I play Mafia on f.ds than any attempt I've made at "okay, this guy said that, and this looked kind of bad, and..." scumhunting. That's why when it happens to be the case that I get that gut check reaction, I just go with it.
But you do realize that if everyone was playing the game like that, we would be getting nowhere?
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Not sure about the Jimmmmm-pps situation. It's weird that Jimmmm obviously had time to respond to accusations, but still not to post his thoughts on pps. pps on the other hand is playing aggressively, something I guess I would expect from scum!pps a little more than from town!pps.
AHoppy's most recent post is interesting. But a statement like "yeah, you should probably lynch me" just doesn't sit right with me. After all, if he's a PR who still has a shot, why say this? I will keep my vote there for now.
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For reference, the reason that I am 90% sure about my "gut intuition" moment is that it's been much more reliable when I play Mafia on f.ds than any attempt I've made at "okay, this guy said that, and this looked kind of bad, and..." scumhunting. That's why when it happens to be the case that I get that gut check reaction, I just go with it.
But you do realize that if everyone was playing the game like that, we would be getting nowhere?
I think playing like that is fine, different styles are what makes this fun. However, not being specify AT ALL where that gut feeling stemmed from when you say you are that sure.. that's so weird.
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This should be a fun exercise then.
Everyone please list the most obviously scummy behavior they have witnessed in this game to date.
Robz pre-emptively attacking me in anticipation of me making a case on him (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9946.msg338514#msg338514) is still at the top of my list.
I simply never did this, and the post you link to provides no evidence of me doing this. And I was just starting to read you as more townie! Seriously, I was, because I agree with you on scotty, and something else I can't recall, and oh I'm big time agreeing with you and I guess PPS on Jimm. Looks to me like Jimm wanted to be voting for someone, and now can't justify the vote he laid down, and is flailing.
I said this pretty quickly out of the gates day2 as part of a general read on different players, some had gone up in scumminess, some had gone down. You had gone up.
And I should say that Robz's attempts to discredit me for various yesterday is where I stand with him are exactly how I expect scum robz to attempt to deal with someone who is threatening him as scum.
You immediately say this:
Oh, how dare you. I did NO such thing. What you did yesterday was remarkably scummy, right or wrong. And you didn't take one iota of heat for it.
and vote for me in the next post. We have already been over the argument of how what I did, I do not believe to be scummy and really no one else does either so I don't know if we need to hash that out again. But regardless, your attempt here is to move the conversation away from yourself and toward me before I had a chance to start talking about you. That much is very obvious to me. And it worked... for the next whole bit instead of talking about you I am talking about myself and it is only after that--and responding and reresponding to you--that I am actually able to get some thoughts down on you and explain why I think you are scummy. As a result my whole case against is diluted in a slew of posts with us arguing (that is partially my fault. I should have just posted my case on you and let your attempts to argue sail past me, but alas... I don't have that type of perfect control over my desire to respond to bad points against me).
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For reference, the reason that I am 90% sure about my "gut intuition" moment is that it's been much more reliable when I play Mafia on f.ds than any attempt I've made at "okay, this guy said that, and this looked kind of bad, and..." scumhunting. That's why when it happens to be the case that I get that gut check reaction, I just go with it.
But you do realize that if everyone was playing the game like that, we would be getting nowhere?
I think playing like that is fine, different styles are what makes this fun. However, not being specify AT ALL where that gut feeling stemmed from when you say you are that sure.. that's so weird.
this completely...
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For reference, the reason that I am 90% sure about my "gut intuition" moment is that it's been much more reliable when I play Mafia on f.ds than any attempt I've made at "okay, this guy said that, and this looked kind of bad, and..." scumhunting. That's why when it happens to be the case that I get that gut check reaction, I just go with it.
But you do realize that if everyone was playing the game like that, we would be getting nowhere?
I agree, which is why in most games I really try to do more traditional scumhunting (in hopes that I'll get my accuracy up using that method to match/exceed my intuitive side). In this game, though, I admit to not being the most focused, and so I'm letting myself just listen to that inner voice.
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We have already been over the argument of how what I did, I do not believe to be scummy and really no one else does either so I don't know if we need to hash that out again. But regardless, your attempt here is to move the conversation away from yourself and toward me before I had a chance to start talking about you. That much is very obvious to me.
Except I had already brought up my case against you the day before, and then we went to a lynch before anyone else even weighed in on it. My case on you wasn't out of left field, I had literally already talked about it.
I mean I'm definitely beating like a dead horse to death at this point, and basically no one except for you and me gives a damn about our argument, which seems like it would mean something but I don't know what.
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Query:
Who is scummier?
chairs for not being able to pinpoint a post or group of posts from me that he finds scummy enough to say 90%
Jimmmm for not posting his case on PPS despite having enough time to defend himself pretty vigorously from people pressing him to do so
TA for still not putting his thoughts out about Eevee that he promised day1.
Or are none of them scummy? All of them are proclaimed to be busy, I will give them that. But saying you will do something and then failing to produce as time goes by is a scummy move historically speaking.
I would be willing to vote any of these players if no one is going to listen to me about Robz... I am not abandoning hope there quite yet.... Chairs perhaps the least so as I still retain a town read from day1 stuff, but honestly that is waning away.
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Query:
Who is scummier?
chairs for not being able to pinpoint a post or group of posts from me that he finds scummy enough to say 90%
Jimmmm for not posting his case on PPS despite having enough time to defend himself pretty vigorously from people pressing him to do so
TA for still not putting his thoughts out about Eevee that he promised day1.
Or are none of them scummy? All of them are proclaimed to be busy, I will give them that. But saying you will do something and then failing to produce as time goes by is a scummy move historically speaking.
I would be willing to vote any of these players if no one is going to listen to me about Robz... I am not abandoning hope there quite yet.... Chairs perhaps the least so as I still retain a town read from day1 stuff, but honestly that is waning away.
I agree. I guess find TwistedArcher's play here pretty unusual. He's usually like a very, very active solid helpful townie. Here he's barely even been active.
What chairs and Jimm are doing, on the other hand, may be scummy, but I don't know it also kind of fits them. Jimm's activity really varies from game to game, I've noticed, and I don't think it's an alignment thing for him. And chairs is just a less-here player.
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It's been a while now since Jimm announced he had something to say on PPS, and the fact that he has had time to write moderately long responses to people's comments on him mean that I'm expecting that, when he does post something on PPS, it will need to be pretty long (in order to justify him having time to write the other responses, but not his case against PPS). Well, not that time spent writing a case is necessarily perfectly correlated with the length of the post, but I'm still expecting a solid case against PPS from him. If he fails to deliver then I think that has to be the scummiest thing we've seen so far, so:
vote: Jimmmmm, at least until he gets his thoughts up.
Otherwise I may switch to chairs, unless he can provide more substance to back his claim.
Also, we still haven't had any cop claims, does that mean we didn't have a N1 cop (or maybe it was Voltaire)? Or did we agree that cops would only claim with scum results?
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My pregnant wife has had the flu all week and it doesn't look like it is relenting anytime soon so I'm working double time with the chores and pets and meals and such. I am checking in so I don't get totally behind but my capacity to fully participate is quite limited right now.
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Query:
Who is scummier?
chairs for not being able to pinpoint a post or group of posts from me that he finds scummy enough to say 90%
Jimmmm for not posting his case on PPS despite having enough time to defend himself pretty vigorously from people pressing him to do so
TA for still not putting his thoughts out about Eevee that he promised day1.
Or are none of them scummy? All of them are proclaimed to be busy, I will give them that. But saying you will do something and then failing to produce as time goes by is a scummy move historically speaking.
I would be willing to vote any of these players if no one is going to listen to me about Robz... I am not abandoning hope there quite yet.... Chairs perhaps the least so as I still retain a town read from day1 stuff, but honestly that is waning away.
Not chairs because I occasionally play like he is now. I also get where he's coming from just getting vibe from someone without pinpointing what exactly it is tha makes them scummy. I think 90% is a gross overstatement for a read at the level he has.
Jimmmmm is scummy for that, but I get where's yes coming from and don't necessarily think he's scum.
TA is doing what I'd say is scummy for not posting a case. It's been long enough and he hasn't really followed up on it like Jimmmmm has. I think he has some RL busy-ness.
I could vote for any of them, actually. Jimmmmm > Twistedarcher > chairs
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My pregnant wife has had the flu all week and it doesn't look like it is relenting anytime soon so I'm working double time with the chores and pets and meals and such. I am checking in so I don't get totally behind but my capacity to fully participate is quite limited right now.
I can totally relate to that! Just wait 'til she and a little one both have the flu at the same time! Won't that be fun.
Anyways, no worries. It isn't like we are getting a whole bunch of participation from everyone else anyways.... at this rate it will probably be very easy to catch up once you are back to normal.
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It doesn't make sense to me to posit something within the first hours of the game and then demonize anyone who thinks it might be a bad idea.
Wait, are you talking about me?
No, I am willing to discuss the merits of your idea. faust is the one throwing votes on the guy who wants to discuss the merits of your idea. You seem complicit with this approach though...
faust jumped right at it, more or less duplicated exactly what I was saying but painted what I was saying as being scummy. WTH?
I don't like how Jimmmmm setup this crappy idea and then when I questioned it faust voted me for it and then made even crappier arguments against me more or less proving it was a crappy idea to begin with and then he just ignored defending his position.
I'm not making any sense but mysteriously everyone who was arguing against me eventually agreed mass claims this early are not a good idea. So, apparently I'm not communicating very well what have been found to be quite sensible ideas.
I engaged the claim theory talk early and gained the most votes of anyone in the game for decrying the theory that has since been universally abandoned and supporting the theory that has been universally accepted.
I engaged the claim theory talk early and gained the most votes of anyone in the game for decrying the theory that has since been universally abandoned and supporting the theory that has been universally accepted.
I think this is misleading, and it comes across as a grab for Towncred. I didn't vote for you, but I definitely could have, and it certainly would not have been for rejecting or supporting theories. I highly doubt that is why anyone has voted for you.
The fact that you didn't vote for me doesn't negate the fact that I picked up the most votes on a single point that has become the accepted game state. That's the point I made, why you are conflating that with the fact that you're not one of the voters is beyond me.
I don't know why you doubt the reason so highly since the only explanation offered was that I wasn't making any sense despite the result that everyone has capitulated and decided that early mass-claims are not re way to go. If it was soooo nonsensical then why is everyone doing it?
Right, I should just follow along and do whatever you or someone else tells me to or else I am anti-town. That's the pattern I'm seeing.
I'm not saying 3 votes is some heavy weight but I am pointing out that I'm the only person who hasn't bent to the pressure put on him which is why is the sole reason I am the person with the most votes regardless of the count.
I only suspect one of the standing votes on me to be scum. It's not the vote but the more subtle suggestions that I must be scum that give it away.
Also, TA immediately echoed me. Why do I get the vote and you ignore him doing the same?
ashersky once said in a scum QT something along the lines of "You don't get lynched scummy. You get lynched if you let Town lynch you." I'm not saying pps is directly following that advice, but that's the impression I get from the above posts. I get the feeling that pps is trying to make the idea that he could be scum so ludicrous that people will be afraid to vote for him.
Part of this is the whole conspiracy theory thing:
If a person is the scum target for the day and they point that out are they painting themselves as a victim or calling attention to how perception is being controlled? Let's run some votes up on you just because I say so and see if you think you're a victim or there's some shenanigans that need to be called out.
That last sentence suggests the low level of activity might be because a small subset of the players decries anyone who dares post while we wait out the clock on D1. I get to have my suspicions and you can call them useless and you can perceive it to be an accusation. My observation of that is scumhunting.
There is the premise operating here that scum will select a couple of targets to maybe work their meta for a D1 mislynch. The Jimmmmm/faust interaction on the mass-claim that got my first vote felt like the bad cop setup and then TA came in and played good cop saying massclaims are indeed bad but faust is town anyway.
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Disclaimer: Yes, it's all conspiracy theory and comes from what can easily be construed as a victim mentality. However, I think the lens itself isn't completely insane, I feel there is a tangible thread in there. I'm not claiming any scum teams nor am I claiming certainty of TA's alignment.
Now admittedly pps has admitted that what he's talking about is a conspiracy theory, which I left in for full disclosure. But I have become extremely suspicious of people who assume and try to get others to assume that scum will act in a particular way. Assuming something about scum is bad Town play, and successfully convincing Townies to wrongfully assume something is good play. So when pps seems to assume that scum are working together (or at the very least one scum is working) to lynch him, I am not quick to believe him. Early on in the game, in my experience, scum do not generally try to push for a particular lynch or have a particular target in mind for a mislynch. This early in the game, scum are much more concerned with not getting lynched themselves. So when, this early in the game, someone talks about how much scum must be pulling strings and manipulating everyone, they're either right, jumping at shadows, or trying to get others to jump at shadows. And I think the latter two are much more likely than the former.
If TA is not scum then I think there would be a very good chance PPS is...
Can you elaborate on that? Without any substantiation it comes off as an attempt to line up two mislynches.
So if TA were to flip scum would you assume or just lean towards me being town?
No, I did not say if and only if. I just said if TA is town, you are more likely scum.
Well, I guess what I am asking is whether or not you perceive the inverse to be true.
This looks like pps trying to gauge how he is perceived, which is much more important to scum than to Town.
Well, I just found out the game was reopened and run into this thing with yuma and Robz. I'd have to homework it against yesterday to really conclude anything but my initial thought is these annoyingly protracted things are usually Town scuffles, no? As it is I have to get some sleep so I'll firm up a read on it tomorrow.
Well, I read up on the Robz/yuma tiff and I got no string lean either way. If I got mod confirmation that one of them was scum and the other not and I had to pick which was scum I'd still say Robz.
Now despite what I said about conspiracy theories, I kind of have one of my own. After I got a positive result on ash in Chocolate Factory and was grilling him about it, his scumbuddy Teproc dismissed it as probably Town v Town. That stood out to me at the time, and I think was what made me finally decide to investigate Teproc the following Night. And I was right, even if my investigation was unhelpful. My point is, when there is a fight between Town and scum, the scum's teammates tend to want to stay out of it. They don't want to support the Townie in lynching their scumbuddy, but they also don't want to support the scum and be seen to be in league with them. So while this is not a huge point and I'm probably making more of a point of it than needs to be made, I think it's something to be conscious of. It also seems unlikely that scum pps would say this if it actually was two Townies, but you never know. Also, I find the "If I got mod confirmation that one of them was scum" a really strange thing to say, as there is no way to get mod confirmation that one of two people is scum. I don't know, seems a strange things to say "mod confirmation" in particular.
What's also strange is the next day he says this:
I sense the Robz/yuma interaction to possibly be an attempt to increase post count while staying focused on a conundrum instead of actual deduction and hunting. In other words an effort to negate the legitimate complaint of lurking yesterday. Thus, I still prefer a Robz lynch as the yuma interaction has served to somewhat strengthen my convictions from yesterday.
Interestingly, this came at a time in which attention was shifting slightly away from the Robz/yuma thing and towards scott and AHoppy for lurking etc.
Jimmmmm looked happy to lunch either you or teproc, he technically jumped right after the hammer. If AHoppy is town then this can be construed as jubilant scum. Does scum want the hammer? Maybe so on that particular D1. Robz was looking for the hammer before the regrouping towards Teproc. chairs was a latecomer to the AHoppy wagon and his entire playstyle has been lurky durky to me. I waffled between AHoppy and Robz kind of sheeping into AHoppy because I wanted us to get in a D1 lynch and he was definitely my favorite over Teproc. I think I was earlier to the wagon than the others except maybe Jimmmmm. A lot of the origination to the wagon ended up on Teproc.
So, I would say that if scum was all piled onto town!AHoppy, which explains why it never fully lynched, that everyone on there including myself appears to be a candidate.
However, knowing my alignment to be Town, that means that either the entire scum team was sitting on AHoppy and Town was entirely devoted to mislynching Teproc or scum contributed to Teproc's demise which places AHoppy himself as a decent candidate for being scum.
This is the post that gave me the bad feeling about pps in the first place. It's just too "How must scum be working together?". Do scum want the hammer? Did they all vote together? Were all the scum on the AHoppy wagon, or did scum help lynch Teproc? I just think that trying to find scum by assuming that scum must have done a particular thing is bad Town play at best, and quite often from scum trying to cause Town to follow their assumptions.
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Looks to me like Jimm wanted to be voting for someone, and now can't justify the vote he laid down, and is flailing.
I was voting for Eevee before I voted for pps.
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It's weird that Jimmmm obviously had time to respond to accusations, but still not to post his thoughts on pps.
Jimmmm for not posting his case on PPS despite having enough time to defend himself pretty vigorously from people pressing him to do so
This is very normal for me when I'm at work. I can keep up and respond to what people say, but I'm not going to sit down, pull up quotes and put a big post together.
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It doesn't make sense to me to posit something within the first hours of the game and then demonize anyone who thinks it might be a bad idea.
Wait, are you talking about me?
No, I am willing to discuss the merits of your idea. faust is the one throwing votes on the guy who wants to discuss the merits of your idea. You seem complicit with this approach though...
faust jumped right at it, more or less duplicated exactly what I was saying but painted what I was saying as being scummy. WTH?
I don't like how Jimmmmm setup this crappy idea and then when I questioned it faust voted me for it and then made even crappier arguments against me more or less proving it was a crappy idea to begin with and then he just ignored defending his position.
I'm not making any sense but mysteriously everyone who was arguing against me eventually agreed mass claims this early are not a good idea. So, apparently I'm not communicating very well what have been found to be quite sensible ideas.
I engaged the claim theory talk early and gained the most votes of anyone in the game for decrying the theory that has since been universally abandoned and supporting the theory that has been universally accepted.
I engaged the claim theory talk early and gained the most votes of anyone in the game for decrying the theory that has since been universally abandoned and supporting the theory that has been universally accepted.
I think this is misleading, and it comes across as a grab for Towncred. I didn't vote for you, but I definitely could have, and it certainly would not have been for rejecting or supporting theories. I highly doubt that is why anyone has voted for you.
The fact that you didn't vote for me doesn't negate the fact that I picked up the most votes on a single point that has become the accepted game state. That's the point I made, why you are conflating that with the fact that you're not one of the voters is beyond me.
I don't know why you doubt the reason so highly since the only explanation offered was that I wasn't making any sense despite the result that everyone has capitulated and decided that early mass-claims are not re way to go. If it was soooo nonsensical then why is everyone doing it?
Right, I should just follow along and do whatever you or someone else tells me to or else I am anti-town. That's the pattern I'm seeing.
I'm not saying 3 votes is some heavy weight but I am pointing out that I'm the only person who hasn't bent to the pressure put on him which is why is the sole reason I am the person with the most votes regardless of the count.
I only suspect one of the standing votes on me to be scum. It's not the vote but the more subtle suggestions that I must be scum that give it away.
Also, TA immediately echoed me. Why do I get the vote and you ignore him doing the same?
ashersky once said in a scum QT something along the lines of "You don't get lynched scummy. You get lynched if you let Town lynch you." I'm not saying pps is directly following that advice, but that's the impression I get from the above posts. I get the feeling that pps is trying to make the idea that he could be scum so ludicrous that people will be afraid to vote for him.
See the bolded above; we're at this again as far as I can discern from this statement. I don't want people afraid to vote for anyone but the idea that I am scum is quite ludicrous to me so it stands to reason that I would respond to the premise that I might be otherwise as if it were ludicrous.
Part of this is the whole conspiracy theory thing:
If a person is the scum target for the day and they point that out are they painting themselves as a victim or calling attention to how perception is being controlled? Let's run some votes up on you just because I say so and see if you think you're a victim or there's some shenanigans that need to be called out.
That last sentence suggests the low level of activity might be because a small subset of the players decries anyone who dares post while we wait out the clock on D1. I get to have my suspicions and you can call them useless and you can perceive it to be an accusation. My observation of that is scumhunting.
There is the premise operating here that scum will select a couple of targets to maybe work their meta for a D1 mislynch. The Jimmmmm/faust interaction on the mass-claim that got my first vote felt like the bad cop setup and then TA came in and played good cop saying massclaims are indeed bad but faust is town anyway.
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Disclaimer: Yes, it's all conspiracy theory and comes from what can easily be construed as a victim mentality. However, I think the lens itself isn't completely insane, I feel there is a tangible thread in there. I'm not claiming any scum teams nor am I claiming certainty of TA's alignment.
Now admittedly pps has admitted that what he's talking about is a conspiracy theory, which I left in for full disclosure. But I have become extremely suspicious of people who assume and try to get others to assume that scum will act in a particular way. Assuming something about scum is bad Town play, and successfully convincing Townies to wrongfully assume something is good play. So when pps seems to assume that scum are working together (or at the very least one scum is working) to lynch him, I am not quick to believe him. Early on in the game, in my experience, scum do not generally try to push for a particular lynch or have a particular target in mind for a mislynch. This early in the game, scum are much more concerned with not getting lynched themselves. So when, this early in the game, someone talks about how much scum must be pulling strings and manipulating everyone, they're either right, jumping at shadows, or trying to get others to jump at shadows. And I think the latter two are much more likely than the former.
Here Jimmmmm lost the context of my post. Firstly, I am divulging what heretofore had been some cards close to chest play driven by paranoia. Out of that context it might appear that I am trying convince people of something but in reality I am simply outlining the motivations for my previous behavior, that is, what I was already convinced of.
Additionally, I offered 2 concrete experiences of me as scum selecting and pursuing D1 targets. I believe Jimmmmm has likely played many more games of Mafia than I have so his statistical base is much wider to draw from and therefore maybe does indicate to him scum don't generally do this. However, my experience indicates scum do this much more often than not.
If TA is not scum then I think there would be a very good chance PPS is...
Can you elaborate on that? Without any substantiation it comes off as an attempt to line up two mislynches.
So if TA were to flip scum would you assume or just lean towards me being town?
No, I did not say if and only if. I just said if TA is town, you are more likely scum.
Well, I guess what I am asking is whether or not you perceive the inverse to be true.
This looks like pps trying to gauge how he is perceived, which is much more important to scum than to Town.
Well, I just found out the game was reopened and run into this thing with yuma and Robz. I'd have to homework it against yesterday to really conclude anything but my initial thought is these annoyingly protracted things are usually Town scuffles, no? As it is I have to get some sleep so I'll firm up a read on it tomorrow.
Well, I read up on the Robz/yuma tiff and I got no string lean either way. If I got mod confirmation that one of them was scum and the other not and I had to pick which was scum I'd still say Robz.
Now despite what I said about conspiracy theories, I kind of have one of my own. After I got a positive result on ash in Chocolate Factory and was grilling him about it, his scumbuddy Teproc dismissed it as probably Town v Town. That stood out to me at the time, and I think was what made me finally decide to investigate Teproc the following Night. And I was right, even if my investigation was unhelpful. My point is, when there is a fight between Town and scum, the scum's teammates tend to want to stay out of it. They don't want to support the Townie in lynching their scumbuddy, but they also don't want to support the scum and be seen to be in league with them. So while this is not a huge point and I'm probably making more of a point of it than needs to be made, I think it's something to be conscious of. It also seems unlikely that scum pps would say this if it actually was two Townies, but you never know. Also, I find the "If I got mod confirmation that one of them was scum" a really strange thing to say, as there is no way to get mod confirmation that one of two people is scum. I don't know, seems a strange things to say "mod confirmation" in particular.
Getting players to take a position is useful to Town. My interaction with scotty wasn't my concern with how I was perceived but about getting scotty to commit to where he stood because prior to that it was conveniently open-ended for him.
Note that you and several others have refrained from putting anything out there about Robz/yuma. Also, note I have taken a stance despite your attempt to negate it as such. I took a position against Robz which I will say has only solidified with yuma's recent posts. My use of "mod confirmation" is simply a way of saying, "If I could know for sure one of these guys was scum and the other not" as the interaction suggests to me is the case.
What's also strange is the next day he says this:
I sense the Robz/yuma interaction to possibly be an attempt to increase post count while staying focused on a conundrum instead of actual deduction and hunting. In other words an effort to negate the legitimate complaint of lurking yesterday. Thus, I still prefer a Robz lynch as the yuma interaction has served to somewhat strengthen my convictions from yesterday.
Interestingly, this came at a time in which attention was shifting slightly away from the Robz/yuma thing and towards scott and AHoppy for lurking etc.
Robz was D1 lurker extraordinaire. When the topic shifted towards lurking it occurred to me that maybe the early engagement with yuma was an intentional ploy to shift gears and shake the strongest argument against him at the time. I didn't put this out there to stifle in the Ahoppy/scotty talk which is obvious by how much I proceeded to engage that topic thereafter.
Jimmmmm looked happy to lunch either you or teproc, he technically jumped right after the hammer. If AHoppy is town then this can be construed as jubilant scum. Does scum want the hammer? Maybe so on that particular D1. Robz was looking for the hammer before the regrouping towards Teproc. chairs was a latecomer to the AHoppy wagon and his entire playstyle has been lurky durky to me. I waffled between AHoppy and Robz kind of sheeping into AHoppy because I wanted us to get in a D1 lynch and he was definitely my favorite over Teproc. I think I was earlier to the wagon than the others except maybe Jimmmmm. A lot of the origination to the wagon ended up on Teproc.
So, I would say that if scum was all piled onto town!AHoppy, which explains why it never fully lynched, that everyone on there including myself appears to be a candidate.
However, knowing my alignment to be Town, that means that either the entire scum team was sitting on AHoppy and Town was entirely devoted to mislynching Teproc or scum contributed to Teproc's demise which places AHoppy himself as a decent candidate for being scum.
This is the post that gave me the bad feeling about pps in the first place. It's just too "How must scum be working together?". Do scum want the hammer? Did they all vote together? Were all the scum on the AHoppy wagon, or did scum help lynch Teproc? I just think that trying to find scum by assuming that scum must have done a particular thing is bad Town play at best, and quite often from scum trying to cause Town to follow their assumptions.
So analyzing the D1 wagon is now bad Town play? I was taking a premise generated from an astute question delivered by faust. I would love to see some counter arguments to that premise but no one has offered one yet. I think the AHoppy wagon indicates all of scum is either one place or the other. If you think otherwise suggest such and how that would have worked instead.
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So analyzing the D1 wagon is now bad Town play?
Yes. That is exactly what I said.
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So analyzing the D1 wagon is now bad Town play?
Yes. That is exactly what I said.
Okay, I'm game. Why do we want a D1 lynch, even if it is a mislynch, if the information from that lynch is not worth looking at the next day?
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So analyzing the D1 wagon is now bad Town play?
Yes. That is exactly what I said.
Okay, I'm game. Why do we want a D1 lynch, even if it is a mislynch, if the information from that lynch is not worth looking at the next day?
Again, exactly what I said.
That's such a nothing response. If someone says the way you did something was scummy, it's meaningless to point out that a simplified version of what you did isn't scummy in and of itself. You could apply that to just about any kind of suspicion in Mafia:
"I don't like the way you voted for that person."
"So voting is now bad Town play?"
"I don't like the way you defended that person."
"So having Townreads is now bad Town play?"
"You seem to be trying to inflate your post count."
"So being active is now bad Town play?"
etc.
You got some votes early during theory discussion and pointed out multiple times that the plan you were proposing was generally agreed on, implying that that meant you shouldn't have received votes for it. But you didn't get votes for what you did, it was for how you did it.
And now I am suspicious of you for having and encouraging assumptions about what scum must or must not be doing regardless of who scum actually are, and because you did so while talking about a wagon your response is, "So analyzing the D1 wagon is now bad Town play?" Of course not! In both cases you oversimplified the points against you and seemed to try to make them sound ridiculous.
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Wow, I was taking you seriously. I thought you were actually saying that looking into the D1 wagon was erroneous and I was well intentioned when I asked what your proposed alternative was. Use the sarcasm tag next time.
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Wow, I was taking you seriously. I thought you were actually saying that looking into the D1 wagon was erroneous and I was well intentioned when I asked what your proposed alternative was. Use the sarcasm tag next time.
Oh okay, sorry. Yes I was being sarcastic. I never said or meant that analysing a wagon is scummy. Encouraging assumptions about scum is scummy.
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I was taking a premise generated from an astute question delivered by faust. I would love to see some counter arguments to that premise but no one has offered one yet. I think the AHoppy wagon indicates all of scum is either one place or the other. If you think otherwise suggest such and how that would have worked instead.
Okay, so your premise is that AHoppy was nearly lynched a couple of times and someone else was lynched instead.
Your conclusion is something along the lines of either AHoppy is scum or all three scum were already on his wagon and thus unable to hammer him.
Your erroneous assumption is on Day 1, given the opportunity to hammer a Townie, scum will always take it.
Correct me if I'm wrong about any of this.
If it doesn't look like scum will be lynched on Day 1, what possible incentive does scum have to draw attention to themselves by hammering a Townie? Why would they draw attention to themselves by acting any different to how a Townie would be perceived to act, ie announcing intent well in advance, carefully deciding between lynches etc. If I'm scum and two Townies are on the chopping block, I care way more about ensuring I don't come out of the Day looking scummy than about making sure a particular lynch goes through.
So all three scum could have been on the AHoppy wagon. Or two. Or one. Or none. But to assume that all three scum voted together is a horrible assumption, and one that scum quite plausibly wants us to assume.
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And you still refuse to propose alternative answers to faust's question.
I didn't goad anyone into accepting my analysis. I've not argued against alternative possibilities because no one has offered any.
I think the question is pertinent and I think the possible answers are very limited and self-evident. Do you not?
PPE --- okay, now we are getting somewhere ----
You have proven my point exactly. I think the logical deduction is that AHoppy is likely scum precisely because of your line of thinking.
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That is, if AHoppy is Town the behavior of either wagon doesn't look like anything scum would be trying to do.
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You have proven my point exactly. I think the logical deduction is that AHoppy is likely scum precisely because of your line of thinking.
How?
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I think I answered your question right before you asked it.
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That is, if AHoppy is Town the behavior of either wagon doesn't look like anything scum would be trying to do.
Are you basing this on anything more than the fact that AHoppy was nearly lynched but wasn't?
I meant, not looking like anything scum would be trying to do is precisely what scum try to do.
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I think I answered your question right before you asked it.
I don't think you have. What exactly would scum be trying to do or not trying to do which is inconsistent with having two Townies up for a lynch?
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The D1 votes were almost entirely distributed between 2 wagons. The one wagon we know was on Town and also contained a Town vote. So the distribution of scum votes gets quite limited unless scum was voting off wagon which implicates TA but I am giving him a pass right now.
So yes, I am basing my assumption on the fact that AHoppy nearly got lynched but just couldn't. I thought this much was patently obvious.
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The D1 votes were almost entirely distributed between 2 wagons. The one wagon we know was on Town and also contained a Town vote. So the distribution of scum votes gets quite limited unless scum was voting off wagon which implicates TA but I am giving him a pass right now.
So yes, I am basing my assumption on the fact that AHoppy nearly got lynched but just couldn't. I thought this much was patently obvious.
So who in this game, if they are scum, will always hammer a Townie given the opportunity, even if the alternative is another Townie?
Was there anyone else who was up for lynch during this time? I'll have a look.
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I kind of really like Jimm's case on PPS, especially the part about PPS calling yuma/Robz a town-on-town fight being analogous to something scum Teproc did in Chocolate Factory. That's a good catch, may be worth something, could point to scum yuma.
Also, I've read through a lot of long cases, and I feel like I can tell which ones are sincere and which ones aren't, and this feels sincere.
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Still can't get used to you agreeing with me. I do lean Townish on you at the moment so I guess it's a good thing.
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Still can't get used to you agreeing with me. I do lean Townish on you at the moment so I guess it's a good thing.
Well, have some more of it, then: Paranoia about scum agreeing with you is a townie trait if ever there was one.
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I think I answered your question right before you asked it.
I don't think you have. What exactly would scum be trying to do or not trying to do which is inconsistent with having two Townies up for a lynch?
Explain me this. AHoppy was at 6 votes with intent to hammer. Why would scum pull out of that free mislynch if AHoppy were town? What happened instead was a sudden interest in making the Teproc wagon happen.
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I think I answered your question right before you asked it.
I don't think you have. What exactly would scum be trying to do or not trying to do which is inconsistent with having two Townies up for a lynch?
Explain me this. AHoppy was at 6 votes with intent to hammer. Why would scum pull out of that free mislynch if AHoppy were town? What happened instead was a sudden interest in making the Teproc wagon happen.
No, that's not what happened. What happened was a sudden interest in lynching me instead.
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Well, Jimmmmm, you have jumped higher on my Townreads. That case is worth the wait and is relatively convincing. I thought PPS was Town because he just couldn't be scum by he way he was acting, but that point you made about being so scummy that Town won't lynch you is a great one.
I've forgotten how we stand vote count wise, but I'll Vote:PPS
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I'm looking at the details of what actually went down, rather than simply "AHoppy got intent to hammer twice and wasn't lynched".
The first time around, the vote count (according to yuma's quoting of sudgy) was:
Twistedarcher (1): Eevee
Eevee (4): Twistedarcher, Archetype, Jimmmmm, yuma [L-3]
AHoppy (5): chairs, pingpongsam, Teproc, Voltaire, scott_pilgrim, yuma [L-1]
Robz stated intent to hammer, and within 3 minutes both Voltaire and yuma had unvoted. Voltaire was Town, so no problem there. It seems fairly unlikely that yuma would put his partner on L-1 and then panic when someone announced intent to hammer. So from what I can tell, no shenanigans there.
Robz then received votes in quick succession from yuma, Voltaire, pps, Archetype.
I assume, pps, that you're excluding yourself from the shenanigans which saved AHoppy, so maybe Archetype was willing to put his vote on any other Townie to save AHoppy. Maybe.
Then more stuff happened, people voted for Eevee and Teproc, leaving the following vote count (according to Teproc, edited to include yuma's vote on Teproc):
Ahoppy (4) : chairs, Teproc, scott_pilgrim, Robz
Eevee (3) : Twistedarcher, Jimmmmm, Archetype
Robz (2) : Voltaire, pingpongsam
Teproc (2) : faust, yuma
Twistedarcher (1) : Eevee
chairs (1) : Ahoppy
Later AHoppy supposedly got back up to L-1, but it now seems he only got to L-2. I don't think it's that important though, since everyone thought he was on L-1:
Ahoppy (5) : Teproc, scott_pilgrim, Robz, chairs, pingpongsam
Eevee (3) : Twistedarcher, Jimmmmm, Archetype
Robz (1) : Voltaire
Teproc (3) : faust, yuma, Eevee
chairs (1) : Ahoppy
Voltaire (Town) stated reluctant intent, and he and Eevee agreed they didn't like the lynch. yuma suggested Teproc, whom scott changed to before any current suspects off the wagon other than Eevee and yuma posted again.
That's all I've really got time for now. How's that for actual wagon analysis pps? Do you conclude based on this that the scumteam must be AHoppy/Eevee/Arch?
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Meant to Vote: PPS, unless interest in yuma lynch increases.
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It's now that I start getting nervous about whether or not I'm right about pps.
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? Quite early to start worrying about that
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? Quite early to start worrying about that
I know. But I worry anyway when it's something that I've started and it's gaining support.
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I think I answered your question right before you asked it.
I don't think you have. What exactly would scum be trying to do or not trying to do which is inconsistent with having two Townies up for a lynch?
Right, I forgot about that bit. While I was serious in my vote on you from the beginning of D1 and thus also in this exchange I did consider all the other votes to be the type to prove a point not to actually achieve lynch. I'm not opposed to the notion that you and AHoppy are both scum and that your intent to hammer was to get the cred at the inevitable demise of your partner. As such you may have intentionally perpetrated the siphoning of votes towards yourself and narrowly saved your partner in the end.
I'll admit I'm back to wild-eyed and breathless conspiracies again but I wouldn't put it past Robz for a second.
Explain me this. AHoppy was at 6 votes with intent to hammer. Why would scum pull out of that free mislynch if AHoppy were town? What happened instead was a sudden interest in making the Teproc wagon happen.
No, that's not what happened. What happened was a sudden interest in lynching me instead.
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I think I answered your question right before you asked it.
I don't think you have. What exactly would scum be trying to do or not trying to do which is inconsistent with having two Townies up for a lynch?
Explain me this. AHoppy was at 6 votes with intent to hammer. Why would scum pull out of that free mislynch if AHoppy were town? What happened instead was a sudden interest in making the Teproc wagon happen.
No, that's not what happened. What happened was a sudden interest in lynching me instead.
Right, I forgot about that bit. While I was serious in my vote on you from the beginning of D1 and thus also in this exchange I did consider all the other votes to be the type to prove a point not to actually achieve lynch. I'm not opposed to the notion that you and AHoppy are both scum and that your intent to hammer was to get the cred at the inevitable demise of your partner. As such you may have intentionally perpetrated the siphoning of votes towards yourself and narrowly saved your partner in the end.
I'll admit I'm back to wild-eyed and breathless conspiracies again but I wouldn't put it past Robz for a second.
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I did consider all the other votes to be the type to prove a point not to actually achieve lynch.
I thought you thought all votes were cast because the voter thinks the person they are voting for is probably scum?
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Also, how can you be making these big assumptions about scum, and also be open to the idea that Robz was willing to hammer his partner?
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I did consider all the other votes to be the type to prove a point not to actually achieve lynch.
I thought you thought all votes were cast because the voter thinks the person they are voting for is probably scum?
I can't tell if you're being snarky to elicit an emotional response or if you really do like this protracted nonsense. It was evident from the quick succession of wordless votes that the majority of voters were doing so to prove a point. I, personally don't play that way and my vote then was sincere.
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Well, Jimm certainly did have content to post, so I'll at least unvote for now.
If TA is not scum then I think there would be a very good chance PPS is...
Can you elaborate on that? Without any substantiation it comes off as an attempt to line up two mislynches.
So if TA were to flip scum would you assume or just lean towards me being town?
No, I did not say if and only if. I just said if TA is town, you are more likely scum.
Well, I guess what I am asking is whether or not you perceive the inverse to be true.
This looks like pps trying to gauge how he is perceived, which is much more important to scum than to Town.
In his defense, I kind of just threw out the idea that either he or TA was scum, without giving any detail. I think it's reasonable for someone to push further on something like that.
Otherwise though I think I like the case. I'm leaning scum on PPS right now.
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Also, how can you be making these big assumptions about scum, and also be open to the idea that Robz was willing to hammer his partner?
Isn't being open to the idea part of the assumptions? I'm not following your question. The fact is I am open to possibilities, none of which you seem interested in refuting or proposing alternatives to.
Your case on me, as I understand it, is that I am trying to mislead Town by making assumptions for Town to subscribe to. This would be believable if I were insistently arguing a counter to those assumptions. What's missing in that scenario is a counter. Where is the counter analysis on the D1 wagon?
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I did consider all the other votes to be the type to prove a point not to actually achieve lynch.
I thought you thought all votes were cast because the voter thinks the person they are voting for is probably scum?
I can't tell if you're being snarky to elicit an emotional response or if you really do like this protracted nonsense. It was evident from the quick succession of wordless votes that the majority of voters were doing so to prove a point. I, personally don't play that way and my vote then was sincere.
You accused me of saying you were probably scum because that's what it means when you vote. Now you're talking about votes to prove a point. Contradictions are always worth pointing out.
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Well, don't let me speak for others.
Those who voted Robz right after he announced intent to hammer AHoppy, what were your reasons?
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Also, how can you be making these big assumptions about scum, and also be open to the idea that Robz was willing to hammer his partner?
Isn't being open to the idea part of the assumptions? I'm not following your question. The fact is I am open to possibilities, none of which you seem interested in refuting or proposing alternatives to.
You are assuming that if AHoppy is Town and scum had the opportunity to hammer him they would. Basically you're assuming that scum will act in a simple, predictable way. That seems at odds with the idea that scum would hammer their partner.
I don't see how you can say that I don't seem interested in refuting or proposing alternatives to your "possibilities".
You said AHoppy must be scum because he would have been lynched if he was Town. I said it's rubbish to assume that, looked at the details of what actually happened and asked for your conclusion based on more detail than "AHoppy got intent to hammer twice and wasn't lynched", which you haven't given.
You said Robz and AHoppy could both be scum. Seems unlikely since Robz looked willing to hammer AHoppy. But more significantly to me, it seems a stark contrast to your assumptions. Also, saying that AHoppy is scum because no one was willing the hammer, and the person who was willing to hammer is likely to be his scumbuddy who wanted to hammer for the Towncred seems like you're trying to have your cake and eat it too, that you've decided that AHoppy is the person you're suspecting and others are likely to be his partners both for not hammering and for being willing to hammer.
What else exactly do I not "seem interested in refuting or proposing alternatives to"?
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Also, how can you be making these big assumptions about scum, and also be open to the idea that Robz was willing to hammer his partner?
Isn't being open to the idea part of the assumptions? I'm not following your question. The fact is I am open to possibilities, none of which you seem interested in refuting or proposing alternatives to.
You are assuming that if AHoppy is Town and scum had the opportunity to hammer him they would. Basically you're assuming that scum will act in a simple, predictable way. That seems at odds with the idea that scum would hammer their partner.
I don't see how you can say that I don't seem interested in refuting or proposing alternatives to your "possibilities".
You said AHoppy must be scum because he would have been lynched if he was Town. I said it's rubbish to assume that, looked at the details of what actually happened and asked for your conclusion based on more detail than "AHoppy got intent to hammer twice and wasn't lynched", which you haven't given.
You said Robz and AHoppy could both be scum. Seems unlikely since Robz looked willing to hammer AHoppy. But more significantly to me, it seems a stark contrast to your assumptions. Also, saying that AHoppy is scum because no one was willing the hammer, and the person who was willing to hammer is likely to be his scumbuddy who wanted to hammer for the Towncred seems like you're trying to have your cake and eat it too, that you've decided that AHoppy is the person you're suspecting and others are likely to be his partners both for not hammering and for being willing to hammer.
What else exactly do I not "seem interested in refuting or proposing alternatives to"?
You are taking my proposal of 2 clearly delineated possible scenarios and removing the delineation as if I think or want both of them to be true. I am suggesting that those two scenarios are the most likely candidates. I can find support for either one but I'm well aware that they can't both be true.
You, on the other hand, haven't suggested any alternatives to those 2 scenarios that you would say are more likely to be the case.
You can pick my ideas apart all day but can't put your own ideas out there to see how well they stand up to criticism. That you can criticism my ideas doesn't make me scum and I hardly see how weighing two wholly opposing possibilities makes me scum.
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Well, don't let me speak for others.
Those who voted Robz right after he announced intent to hammer AHoppy, what were your reasons?
It was a misunderstanding on my part. I thought he meant to hammer AHoppy before he even had a chance to speak.
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I don't see anything compelling about Jimmm's case on PPS.
1. I don't buy the "be so ridiculous that town won't lynch you" because that has been refuted time and time again. He might not be lynched today for it, but he will be lynched eventually is that is an actual strategy (or at least he has to be aware of it). Yes mafia only needs to last so long, but I think erratic behavior is the enemy of scum because it is extremely risky as it more often than not leads to people saying "let's lynch him" than people saying "he is being too scummy to lynch him.
2. the perception point is a point, but in isolation isn't enough for me
3. this is taking an example from a previous game and applying it to this situation without having any evidence that it is what you say it is. It is pure speculation. If Robz or I flip scum (PS... I won't.... Robz probably will, but I am not certain he will) then maybe you have a point, until then... nothing in my estimation.
the fourth point about Ahoppy I feel is best said actually by Jimmm himself later...
You said Robz and AHoppy could both be scum. Seems unlikely since Robz looked willing to hammer AHoppy. But more significantly to me, it seems a stark contrast to your assumptions. Also, saying that AHoppy is scum because no one was willing the hammer, and the person who was willing to hammer is likely to be his scumbuddy who wanted to hammer for the Towncred seems like you're trying to have your cake and eat it too, that you've decided that AHoppy is the person you're suspecting and others are likely to be his partners both for not hammering and for being willing to hammer.
this sort of behavior I think is soooo much more likely to come from town who is tunneling (either correctly or incorrectly) than it is to come from scum. Add this to my townier read on PPS from before and that I don't really see the points above, I don't think PPS is a good lynch for today.
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I kind of really like Jimm's case on PPS, especially the part about PPS calling yuma/Robz a town-on-town fight being analogous to something scum Teproc did in Chocolate Factory. That's a good catch, may be worth something, could point to scum yuma.
Also, I've read through a lot of long cases, and I feel like I can tell which ones are sincere and which ones aren't, and this feels sincere.
And I really, really don't like this... Flipped on its head it is just as likely to point to Robz being scum if you follow that line of thought, but I don't because until something is actually proved it is rather worthless speculation.
I do agree that I think Jimmmm's case is on the sincere side. But I don't think I agree that it is correct.
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and the person that I find scummiest after everything from this is actually Archetype... which means that he is town because I always, always, always read him wrong....
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I did consider all the other votes to be the type to prove a point not to actually achieve lynch.
I thought you thought all votes were cast because the voter thinks the person they are voting for is probably scum?
A nice subtle twisting of my words here. Actually I originally said:
When you vote someone you are effectively saying "this guy is probably scum". Just because you don't type the words out doesn't mean that is not the message you just broadcast.
The difference is the intent. It's not what you think, it's what you communicate. Thus, my original version stands true even when it is scum placing the vote. Your twisted version breaks completely when it is scum placing the vote because scum doesn't think the person they are voting for is probably scum, they know for sure whether they are or not.
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I'm also not getting the super-towny vibe from Scott, can someone explain it? Eloquent posts are nice and all but they don't always mean town, why should it mean that here?
this was TA's last post 4 days ago.
I have seen him online multiple times on both this thread and other mafia threads.
vote: TA for lurking, falling into the general active early but dropping off steeply later and for still not putting forward what he said he would about eevee day1.
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and just in case that doesn't prompt him to post, perhaps a prod: TA request is in order to make it official?
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Yeah sorry, I have been kinda following along whenever I have time / am on the metro / whatever. I know I've been slacking. I am finding that mafia has unfortunately steeply fallen down the list of things I want to do with my free time, but I will try to get to this tomorrow and play out the rest of the game. Yuma vs. Robz feels kinda town vs town but Robz is reading townier, but I don't know if I'd want to vote Yuma. I haven't read much into PPS vs. Jimmm, need to re-read that. Eevee I still think is scum, all the reactions to my D1 case made me thing that -- look at how he ignored my case versus adamantly defending himself (which I think is what happened with Yuma vs. Robz -- town immediately reacts to stuff against them -- PPS is also giving a similar feeling).
I need to re-read PPS vs. Jimmm, and yeah I need to get those Eevee things. But keep in mind other people can do that too just as easily as I can, and no one has jumped to do it...I haven't been feeling too hesitant to rush to it when I kinda feel like it'll be shut down quickly. I am still wanting to lynch Eevee, and feeling like people are giving him a pass just because I haven't bothered to finish my case, which is silly -- regardless of my case people should be looking at him, and not just waiting for me to make a case to react to. I feel like "I'm not comfortable voting Eevee because TA made an incomplete case on him" is kind of silly -- that reasoning means that they think I am scum, so why wouldn't they vote him? Why does my case need to be complete to vote Eevee?
But yeah, I will try to get around to this tomorrow, I hope, or definitely by deadline at the very least.
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Fair enough...
I really don't have a very good read on anyone scum wise (except for Robz)... I feel like I have some ok town reads on pps and scott, but my scum reads are all kinda meh...
Jimmmmm I think has moved away from being scummy
TA, despite my vote, I just don't know if he stays away from the thread and puts off the case like that on Eevee (same as Jimmmm...) my earlier posts in that regard was actually kind of a leading question but I didn't really get anything from it.
chairs however, is kinda a different situation and my town read on him has lessened somewhat.
So who does that leave? Eevee and Ahoppy were the other lynch candidates from day1. Neither are super appealing to me right now. I fear part of that is just the natural reaction toward day1 non-lynches though... kind of the "we tried that, but it didn't work... why try it again? sort of thing"
Other players: faust--I could still see myself voting for. I dont' really have a case on him at all, just more of a general feeling that I can't really remember him at all. Obviously that means I need to reread him before I make any sort of a conclusion, but I think he might be kind of the background scum player who is waiting to see where town takes itself before he makes move. And archetype... he has had some extremely scummy posts in the last 2-3 days I think, but as I said before any time that I was certain he was scum he has turned out town and when I thought he was town he turned out to be mafia... so I don't know what to think about him.
Really what I think we need is another blitz style movement like we had yesterday. When is the deadline? Ugh 14 day deadlines... 5 days from now...
PS here is our current vote count unvote
Eevee (1): Twistedarcher
yuma (1): chairs
AHoppy (1): faust
pingpongsam (4): Jimmmmm, Ahoppy, Archetype, Robz
Archetype (1): Eevee
Not Voting (3): pingpongsam, scott, yuma
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Eevee has really not had many town normal games lately...
Dynasty Warriors 2, he didn't place a vote in his first 20 posts, which goes against the examples of Eevee finding a town player scummy for "normally stereotypical scum play"
Dynasty Warrios 1 is a little bit different...his first vote is in his 6th ost of the game, quoted below
Nothing else was going on, huh? There was a wagon forming on TA!! Why would you want to revert us back to rvs when ash, yuma and TA had just gotten the game going?
Voting someone for not following the norms also annoys me greatly, even if it's my frustration leaking through, I'm going to vote: sudgy.
That you realized you got caught of scummy behavior and tried to make it all a joke to escape the suspicion is also a believable scum narrative for me.
This seems to me to be more of an emotional, annoyed post than a "Ok, this person has exhibited scummy behavior". I may be stretching this to fit my case, but I think this differs from the early examples of Eevee scum games of Eevee playing and voting early from his head, and not his gut / his emotions...behavior I think he exhibited this game.
I can go do more Eevee town games, but you all can do that too if you want to.
Yuma, why does the fact that the Eevee/Ahoppy wagons didn't go D1 make you not want to revisit them? Isn't a scum wagon more likely to stall than a town wagon, especially one that just stopped at 4 votes like the Eevee wagon? Which wagon is more likely to stall at 4 votes...a scum wagon, which only has 10 town members to push it up (assuming no bussing), or a town wagon, which has 12 scum/town members to push it up? I don't follow why the fact that the wagons didn't happen D1 makes them less likely to be scum.
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Also, how can you be making these big assumptions about scum, and also be open to the idea that Robz was willing to hammer his partner?
Isn't being open to the idea part of the assumptions? I'm not following your question. The fact is I am open to possibilities, none of which you seem interested in refuting or proposing alternatives to.
You are assuming that if AHoppy is Town and scum had the opportunity to hammer him they would. Basically you're assuming that scum will act in a simple, predictable way. That seems at odds with the idea that scum would hammer their partner.
I don't see how you can say that I don't seem interested in refuting or proposing alternatives to your "possibilities".
You said AHoppy must be scum because he would have been lynched if he was Town. I said it's rubbish to assume that, looked at the details of what actually happened and asked for your conclusion based on more detail than "AHoppy got intent to hammer twice and wasn't lynched", which you haven't given.
You said Robz and AHoppy could both be scum. Seems unlikely since Robz looked willing to hammer AHoppy. But more significantly to me, it seems a stark contrast to your assumptions. Also, saying that AHoppy is scum because no one was willing the hammer, and the person who was willing to hammer is likely to be his scumbuddy who wanted to hammer for the Towncred seems like you're trying to have your cake and eat it too, that you've decided that AHoppy is the person you're suspecting and others are likely to be his partners both for not hammering and for being willing to hammer.
What else exactly do I not "seem interested in refuting or proposing alternatives to"?
You are taking my proposal of 2 clearly delineated possible scenarios and removing the delineation as if I think or want both of them to be true. I am suggesting that those two scenarios are the most likely candidates. I can find support for either one but I'm well aware that they can't both be true.
You, on the other hand, haven't suggested any alternatives to those 2 scenarios that you would say are more likely to be the case.
You can pick my ideas apart all day but can't put your own ideas out there to see how well they stand up to criticism. That you can criticism my ideas doesn't make me scum and I hardly see how weighing two wholly opposing possibilities makes me scum.
Wow. You're certainly hard work to argue with.
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and the person that I find scummiest after everything from this is actually Archetype... which means that he is town because I always, always, always read him wrong....
I have seen several things from Archetype that I would have thought were scummy if they came from anyone else.
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I have to agree with yuma that I'm not convinced by the case Jimmmmm has made on pps. In fact after their exchange here, pps looks townier to me than ever before. The players who happily sheeped Jimmmm's case however look certainly suspicious to me. Jimmmmm himself.... I'm not sure. I would usually give out a town read for a case like this, but the way Jimmmmm aproached this is weird: he originally stated that he "has something to say" about pps and votes for him. Then, when asked for a case, he tells us to wait and says it's not a real case. But what he posted now is definitely a case. This all leaves me null with a slight slight tendecy towards scum on Jimmmm.
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Also everyone, I want your reasons why you are not voting AHoppy, the very player who said he doesn't mind being lynched.
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I would usually give out a town read for a case like this, but the way Jimmmmm aproached this is weird: he originally stated that he "has something to say" about pps and votes for him. Then, when asked for a case, he tells us to wait and says it's not a real case. But what he posted now is definitely a case. This all leaves me null with a slight slight tendecy towards scum on Jimmmm.
Hang on, I never said it wasn't a case. I just said that I never said it was a case. I was at work and had time to re-read pps, which I did. I then posted my initial thoughts, knowing that I had more to say but not knowing exactly what that would look like. Then when I had time I collected quotes on him and said what I thought about them and why they came across as scummy to me. Whether or not that's a case I don't care, but everyone seemed to be talking up my impending "case" when all I'd said was that I had more say.
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Also everyone, I want your reasons why you are not voting AHoppy, the very player who said he doesn't mind being lynched.
Why would scum not mind being lynched? I mean, that in itself is not a reason to lynch someone.
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Also everyone, I want your reasons why you are not voting AHoppy, the very player who said he doesn't mind being lynched.
Why would scum not mind being lynched? I mean, that in itself is not a reason to lynch someone.
Why would town not mind being lynched?
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If AHoppy is truly town, and does not mind being lynched, that means he has already used his power. Now we have no investigation results, so he's not a D1 cop. He might be a D1 doc, but I think it's much more likely that he is scum who didn't think things through. And if he's town, scum now knows he's out of their kill pool.
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Also everyone, I want your reasons why you are not voting AHoppy, the very player who said he doesn't mind being lynched.
I'm currently just not voting. I would be willing to vote AHoppy. I'd like to resolve the yuma/Robz split as I feel more certain there is scum in there and I'm not entirely convinced a flipped AHoppy achieves that resolution..
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If AHoppy is truly town, and does not mind being lynched, that means he has already used his power. Now we have no investigation results, so he's not a D1 cop. He might be a D1 doc, but I think it's much more likely that he is scum who didn't think things through. And if he's town, scum now knows he's out of their kill pool.
If a D1 power were already expended shouldn't that person keep quiet unless a cop result on a Townie would serve to save them from a mislynch?
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In other words, I was thinking a Mafia result should be delivered immediately whereas a Town result might better be held until later in the day.
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If AHoppy is truly town, and does not mind being lynched, that means he has already used his power. Now we have no investigation results, so he's not a D1 cop. He might be a D1 doc, but I think it's much more likely that he is scum who didn't think things through. And if he's town, scum now knows he's out of their kill pool.
If a D1 power were already expended shouldn't that person keep quiet unless a cop result on a Townie would serve to save them from a mislynch?
No, I don't think so. Risk is too high that the player with the result gets killed and we never know they investigated. Didn't we already cover this D1? They need to claim at some point, and I think we're past that point now, so I'm assuming no result.
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If AHoppy is truly town, and does not mind being lynched, that means he has already used his power. Now we have no investigation results, so he's not a D1 cop. He might be a D1 doc, but I think it's much more likely that he is scum who didn't think things through. And if he's town, scum now knows he's out of their kill pool.
If a D1 power were already expended shouldn't that person keep quiet unless a cop result on a Townie would serve to save them from a mislynch?
No, I don't think so. Risk is too high that the player with the result gets killed and we never know they investigated. Didn't we already cover this D1? They need to claim at some point, and I think we're past that point now, so I'm assuming no result.
Right, I agree that claiming within the day is necessary or else the result may get lost to NK. However, unless their Town result or the cop themselves are close to lynch what purpose is served to reveal it earlier rather than later in the day?
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Any thoughts Eevee?
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Right, I agree that claiming within the day is necessary or else the result may get lost to NK. However, unless their Town result or the cop themselves are close to lynch what purpose is served to reveal it earlier rather than later in the day?
It gives us an IC at our disposal. Now, I agree that it's good to wait some time, but you want to claim this when there's still enough time for people to decide what to do with that claim. Now this Day is already in it's second half with quite some interesting stuff already happened (Robz/yuma, you/Jimmmm). Seems to me the time for a claim has come.
Regarding where this started, this argument is of course somewhat moot. Should AHoppy in fact be a N1 Cop, he will claim eventually, and if he does, I will adjust my vote accordingly. But for the time being, I work under the assumption that he's not a N1 Cop.
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Any thoughts Eevee?
Your argument with PPS is so confusing to read, like, I literally can't follow what's being talked about. I was null on you, wishing more contributions which you clearly have delivered, even if it's stuff I have trouble analyzing. PPS I read town earlier, his attempts to rebut your case hasn't made him townier to me, but not really scummy either.
TA, the problem with your case, despite the amount of work you've put to it, I don't really see anything to respond. You are digging some old quotes and saying that's how I play scum, when all I see is how I play the game of mafia.
I am severely lacking scum reads in this game though, I have no clue. I might actually want to lynch yuma come to think of it, he came off scummier in the Robz-debacle.
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Yuma always aggressively attacks people suspecting him for bad reasons, that's why he never gets lynched. Not all cases are slam dunk affairs though, I think "came off scummier in the weird exchange with Robz, hasn't seemed towny in his other dealings" is a fine enough reason to vote.
In fact, Vote: yuma and see what happens.
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Eevee, could you answer this:
Also everyone, I want your reasons why you are not voting AHoppy, the very player who said he doesn't mind being lynched.
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Faust, what post # is that quote from?
Wouldn't scum mind getting lynched more than town would? I mean, scum wants to avoid getting lynched at all costs, while it's not the absolute worst thing for town if their mislynch helps to catch scum later..
I am not saying this clears Ahoppy at all, but I just don't see how this points to him being scum.
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Yet again, no one responds to the posts on Eevee. I am basically content at this point to say that well, I know Eevee is mafia, I am sure of it, and I'm not convincing anyone for awhile, so there's not too much I can do there. It's not as if people aren't agreeing to the case -- it's that no one is even freaking responding to it.
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Eevee, could you answer this:
Also everyone, I want your reasons why you are not voting AHoppy, the very player who said he doesn't mind being lynched.
I don't think saying that is a scum trait at all, in fact it's a statement I'd expect town to make more often than scum (and this is not to say I think he is town because of that).
I think Ahoppy got wagoned pretty unfairly yesterday, as far as I can see the main reasons were posting scarcely (something he has always done, when he does post they are on the meatier side though) and "defending me", which was attacking the gaping hole in TA's logic against me (that he had only looked at my scum games and was using the fact I play like I always do as a point against me).
TA, I think you are confusing yourself at this point. I honestly don't see the big point you are making, different day 1's play differently and it makes the reads you get unique every single time (also your own level of participation and general mood on any given day matters a lot). I think people aren't commenting your case because they don't there is any scum to be found with that method. I know I'm not scum anyways.
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TA, I think you are confusing yourself at this point. I honestly don't see the big point you are making, different day 1's play differently and it makes the reads you get unique every single time (also your own level of participation and general mood on any given day matters a lot). I think people aren't commenting your case because they don't there is any scum to be found with that method. I know I'm not scum anyways.
I have to agree with Eevee here, except for the part where he knows he's not scum.
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Should have left that out so other townies could agree with me, dangit!
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Faust, what post # is that quote from?
Wouldn't scum mind getting lynched more than town would? I mean, scum wants to avoid getting lynched at all costs, while it's not the absolute worst thing for town if their mislynch helps to catch scum later..
I am not saying this clears Ahoppy at all, but I just don't see how this points to him being scum.
This is the post I'm referring to:
@ #1014 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9946.msg339649#msg339649)I'm actually in agreement with you faust, even if it means my death. In this game specifically, we have no idea if we even have a cop tonight. Or if we had one last night. One of our cops died, and if we only have what, 4-6? so that means we have 3-5 left with no guarantee that the investigations will happen tonight. I'm not up to running the numbers on it, but I do like a definite way (lynch) to find out an alignment as opposed to a gamble (which, you then have to rely also on the cop's judgement of who to investigate...)
Looking for this also made me realize it's been almost 4 days since AHoppy's last post. Can we get a prod on AHoppy?
And I think neither scum nor town would want to get lynched in this game, but scum is more likely to say it trying to appear townie and selfless.
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Argh, I just lost a long post I typed up, and am super frustrated about it. But basically, Eevee is misrepresenting my case by saying it had a "gaping hole in it" -- I always acknowledged it was incomplete, and never tried to use it to misrepresent Eevee. Saying anything else is a huge discredit to my case.
I feel like people are dismissing the case because of how I presented it, and not because of the actual logic. Saying "TA presented only half of it" shouldn't make a difference -- I was very clear about it, and anyone else was perfectly able to go look at Eevee's town games -- the fact that I didn't immediately should NOT be a strike against the case. Look at the case itself, not my inactivity.
I am pretty sure Eevee is mafia, and at this point it's becoming clear I won't convince anyone else, so I guess I can drop it and then be happy when Eevee flips mafia. Cause no one is interested in going that direction at all, and it's not worth it to try to convince people of something when there's no chance of it.
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I'm totally open to discussing it TA, I do want to convince you I'm town. Can you summarize case in short points (no digging back for quotes etc), in a way that's easily understandable so I can comment?
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Sure. One of your first posts this game was a vote (on me) for something that you considered a "scum trait" (or something in that vein). This is similar to several other scum games, which I dug up and quoted previously.
Normally, I associate D1 Eevee with trying to get a feel for the game, and a lot of your reads coming from your gut. This comes from several games I've played with you, including Innovation and Modern Community (in which you admittedly weren't town, but I feel you were trying to play as town (he was survivor)). Basically, I think that town!Eevee plays from his gut, while scum!Eevee is more likely to dig for traits to pin on people as scummy. I feel that your play this game matches the scum play rather than the town play.
This is a very meta-based argument, so obviously not the easiest to defend, I do get that. But you initially completely ignored my case, and no one really wanted to run anywhere with it -- and while that is certainly possible that it's because I made the case in a haphazard, incomplete way, I do think that a case on scum Eevee is less likely to take off -- especially when it was the biggest case made at that point of D1. Scum would have been willing to jump on that, and maybe they did in the Jimmm/Arch area, but your response, and the fact that no one's really been wanting to head in your direction, reinforces my already strong read a bit.
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Well, I'm going to give credence to TA since he is fervently pushing a case. I was a N1 cop and I investigated TA and he turned up a Town result.
I didn't see much utility in divulging this until he started flailing on this case which I'm not wholly impressed by but I admit he is Town. It's also why I gave him a pass on analyzing the D1 wagons wherein he was off-wagon.
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I wish you hadn't claimed until later, but cool I guess.
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Well, I'm going to give credence to TA since he is fervently pushing a case. I was a N1 cop and I investigated TA and he turned up a Town result.
I didn't see much utility in divulging this until he started flailing on this case which I'm not wholly impressed by but I admit he is Town. It's also why I gave him a pass on analyzing the D1 wagons wherein he was off-wagon.
Vote: pingpongsam.
Let me explain. Right now, we don't know if pps is telling the truth. If he is scum, we obviously want to lynch him. But - should he flip town, we know he told the truth, and we have an IC. Plus, scum can't really kill the IC until they are sure there are no doctor around anymore, which is only after N5. So we get to use an IC all that time . Also, scum will now never kill pps, so the only way we can confirm his claim is if we lynch him. That is done sooner rather than later.
If you're town, sorry. But I do think this is the way to go for us.
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I could not disagree with you more, Faust.
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Looking for this also made me realize it's been almost 4 days since AHoppy's last post. Can we get a prod on AHoppy?
Prod sent.
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Oh, this is what you're going on about?
@ #1014 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9946.msg339649#msg339649)I'm actually in agreement with you faust, even if it means my death. In this game specifically, we have no idea if we even have a cop tonight. Or if we had one last night. One of our cops died, and if we only have what, 4-6? so that means we have 3-5 left with no guarantee that the investigations will happen tonight. I'm not up to running the numbers on it, but I do like a definite way (lynch) to find out an alignment as opposed to a gamble (which, you then have to rely also on the cop's judgement of who to investigate...)
He was clearly just trying to say that what you were saying made objective sense, not like actually that he should be the lynch.
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Is that L-something on PPS? Let's be careful here.
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I just looked. It is L-1 I think, but it's been a while since the last vote count.
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Oh shoot, Robz is right. L-1 on PPS, someone please unvote
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Faust, at least give this time for discussion!
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Unvote
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Oh shoot, Robz is right. L-1 on PPS, someone please unvote
Why?
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Because you're voting a freaking claimed cop before anyone has had a chance to react. We have like a week to go, even if you will eventually go there, why does it need to be now
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Vote Count please
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Because you're voting a freaking claimed cop before anyone has had a chance to react. We have like a week to go, even if you will eventually go there, why does it need to be now
Yes, well fine. It's not like I was stating intent to hammer. What's the problem with him being at L-1? I think everyone in this game knows better than to derphammer.
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I had NO idea he was at that many votes, and we have very few vote counts to go off of. If I didn't know he was at 4, someone else could just as easily not know he's at 5.
The problem with him being at L-1 is that it's just inferior to him not being at L-1 in every sense. Everyone's aware he's at L-1 and no one derphammers? Fine, we're in the exact same situation. Everyone's not aware he's at L-1? We're in a worse situation for no reason. Therefore, no reason for him to be at L-1.
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Maybe I was a little too eager. It's just, this plan has been stuck in my head since the middle of D1, and I already had lost hope that there would be a chance to try it, so I was quite excited to see the Cop claim.
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Because you're voting a freaking claimed cop before anyone has had a chance to react. We have like a week to go, even if you will eventually go there, why does it need to be now
Yes, well fine. It's not like I was stating intent to hammer. What's the problem with him being at L-1? I think everyone in this game knows better than to derphammer.
Wrong!
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Maybe I was a little too eager. It's just, this plan has been stuck in my head since the middle of D1, and I already had lost hope that there would be a chance to try it, so I was quite excited to see the Cop claim.
Did you know that faust wasn't on L-1?
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Maybe I was a little too eager. It's just, this plan has been stuck in my head since the middle of D1, and I already had lost hope that there would be a chance to try it, so I was quite excited to see the Cop claim.
Did you know that faust wasn't on L-1?
And by faust I mean pingpongsam.
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I was about to derphammer and then I read the "OH GOD IT'S L-1" post and realized some of the people I thought had unvoted earlier were actually still voting :-[
So yes, it happens.
Also, intent - I agree that PPS's claim makes an info lynch very useful, and gives us a lot of benefit if true.
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Chairs, Faust: Do you think that PPS is scum? Yes/no
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Maybe I was a little too eager. It's just, this plan has been stuck in my head since the middle of D1, and I already had lost hope that there would be a chance to try it, so I was quite excited to see the Cop claim.
Did you know that faust wasn't on L-1?
I guess you mean pps? I was fairly certain he wasn't because I usually realize when someone is put at L-1. But honestly, I might very well consciously have hammered him if I had had the chance.
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Chairs, Faust: Do you think that PPS is scum? Yes/no
I am pretty null, with a slight town tendency on him. Always hard to read for me though.
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Policy voting claimed cops is ridiculous, and an amazing way to get our cops to not claim. ICs aren't worth it if they come at the cost of a mislynch, which is the trade you guys are proposing.
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Policy voting claimed cops is ridiculous, and an amazing way to get our cops to not claim. ICs aren't worth it if they come at the cost of a mislynch, which is the trade you guys are proposing.
See, and here we disagree. Plus, pps was the only wagon for a long time when he claimed. Doesn't that strike you as an odd timing for the claim?
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Vote Count 2.3
Eevee (1): Twistedarcher
yuma (2): chairs, Eevee
pingpongsam (4): AHoppy, Archetype, Robz888, faust
Not Voting (4): pingpongsam, scott_pilgrim, yuma, Jimmmmm
With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.
Day 2 ends February 7th, 12:00 AM.
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Also, implying that other Cops won't claim if we lynch pps is ridiculous.
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What you gain from lynching PPS is if he's town is that I'm an IC, and that you shouldn't vote me.
The thing is, we know that before we lynch PPS! The only way I'm scum is if PPS is also scum. Therefore, I should be off the table for today, and as long as PPS lives.
The only thing you gain from lynching PPS is that you shouldn't lynch me -- but you shouldn't lynch me regardless, since if you want to lynch me, you should lynch PPS.
Yes, you gain the information I'm town by lynching PPS, but that's at the cost of PPS, and another townie tonight. That's just absolutely not worth it in my eyes. I guarantee you I won't be a good enough IC to be worth the death of two townies.
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If I get a town result on someone later on who's not getting lynched regardless? No freaking way am I claiming if I know I'm going to get immediately lynched. My claim would be detrimental to town.
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Okay.... I don't like faust's plan AT ALL.
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It's one thing to vote PPS because we think he's fakeclaiming, but that's not what is happening here. You are proposing lynching PPS even if we think he's town! We don't have enough town members to spare for this to happen.
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If I get a town result on someone later on who's not getting lynched regardless? No freaking way am I claiming if I know I'm going to get immediately lynched. My claim would be detrimental to town.
But that's not happening. The first IC is the most important because A) they will be IC for the longest time. B) with two IC's, we cannot guarantee their protection.
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pps, why TA?
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If I get a town result on someone later on who's not getting lynched regardless? No freaking way am I claiming if I know I'm going to get immediately lynched. My claim would be detrimental to town.
But that's not happening. The first IC is the most important because A) they will be IC for the longest time. B) with two IC's, we cannot guarantee their protection.
Do you think an IC is worth the death of two townies?
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pps, why TA?
Well he can answer this himself, but he did say D1 that he thought he would learn the most information from learning my alignment versus anyone else's.
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Chairs, Faust: Do you think that PPS is scum? Yes/no
Maybe. If I were scum this game, and I wanted to get a Town member on my side, one thing I would definitely consider is claiming Cop. I could also see this being a really clever scum ploy where he clears you, and you guys slide through on the excuse that PPS is just a VT now and you're an IC so probably doctored. So in my mind, there's three possibilities:
PPS is town + TA is town = lynching PPS generates IC TA.
PPS is scum + TA is town = lynching PPS lynches scum.
PPS is scum + TA is scum = lynching PPS lynches scum.
I'm weighting the first two possibilities equally and the third possibility as somewhat lower. I still feel like this is a solid lynch choice.
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Sorry, life is still busy... Catching up again.
OK, so far I am up to the PPS claim, and I want to get these thoughts out there before they are blown up by whatever happens after. Read this with that knowledge and know I am currently reading past that claim and will gather my thoughts on that as well.
I'm also still not sure about PPS' whole "all scum was probably on AHoppy scenario". I don't get why they would all be on my wagon... Town can be horribly wrong, all the time. I know in my previous games, I have made many bad reads on town players. I was 100% convinced Archetype was scum but he wasn't. So what I'm saying is that enough of town could have been wrong to only have 1-2 scum on me.
@996 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9946.msg339420#msg339420) PPS: you presented your theory as if it were the only case:
I reread the end of D1. AHoppy was at 6 votes + intent to hammer twice and still wasn't lynched. How does that even happen with town players?
I think this presents 2 strong possibilities:
scum!AHoppy - Everybody but scum and a few diehards were on the wagon.
town!AHoppy - All of scum was on that wagon and damned near enough town were on it to get a mislynch.
Yeah, well, I think it is unlikely all of scum was on your wagon, too. Which logically results in you being scum. Do you have a better answer to faust's question? Funnyy ou pick on me for answering it but do not propose an alternative answer yourself.
No. Just, no. being unlikely that all scum were on my wagon does not logically result in me being scum. Why are you so set on all scum being on me or me being scum myself? Logically, there are many more options: 2 on me, 1 on teproc, 1 on me, 1 off, 1 on teproc, 2 on teproc 1 on me... There are just as many options where I am scum as where I am not. I don't like that you're painting this a black and white matter of either "all scum were on town AHoppy, or AHoppy is scum". I just don't think it makes any sense and is very narrow-minded.
As to faust's question, I don't know. I don't see what makes it more likely that I am scum when I was at L-1 twice. Perhaps scum didn't want to be the hammer, so they couldn't switch off teproc/not voting (I can't remember who wasn't voting when, but I think there were some not voting).
AHoppy's most recent post is interesting. But a statement like "yeah, you should probably lynch me" just doesn't sit right with me. After all, if he's a PR who still has a shot, why say this? I will keep my vote there for now.
This was not my intention. I was looking from the collective town's POV: It makes more sense to lynch me that hope to cop me. The way I see it, we have a pretty good chance of not getting any cop results tomorrow either because our D2 cop is dead, or will be dead in the morning, or because we don't have one at all! OTOH, killing me enables stronger reads on end of D1 shenanigans, which may be just as successful as one successful cop/doc. I'm thinking through it logically for the good of the many, and I came to the conclusion that my death could be more helpful than my life. I'd still rather you didn't kill me, but if it must be done, it must.
Query:
Who is scummier?
chairs for not being able to pinpoint a post or group of posts from me that he finds scummy enough to say 90%
Jimmmm for not posting his case on PPS despite having enough time to defend himself pretty vigorously from people pressing him to do so
TA for still not putting his thoughts out about Eevee that he promised day1.
Or are none of them scummy? All of them are proclaimed to be busy, I will give them that. But saying you will do something and then failing to produce as time goes by is a scummy move historically speaking.
I would be willing to vote any of these players if no one is going to listen to me about Robz... I am not abandoning hope there quite yet.... Chairs perhaps the least so as I still retain a town read from day1 stuff, but honestly that is waning away.
If I had to rank these (going back to PPS quesiton about the scummiest thing this game) I would say TA first, then chairs because I can also see town doing this D1, however by D2 there is more information out there that you don't have to rely on your gut, and finally Jimmmmm because I can sympathize with him on that.
Happy to see Jimmmm respond, I'm getting town vibe from him, as I can relate to being available to follow along but not craft a post like that
I was taking a premise generated from an astute question delivered by faust. I would love to see some counter arguments to that premise but no one has offered one yet. I think the AHoppy wagon indicates all of scum is either one place or the other. If you think otherwise suggest such and how that would have worked instead.
Okay, so your premise is that AHoppy was nearly lynched a couple of times and someone else was lynched instead.
Your conclusion is something along the lines of either AHoppy is scum or all three scum were already on his wagon and thus unable to hammer him.
Your erroneous assumption is on Day 1, given the opportunity to hammer a Townie, scum will always take it.
Correct me if I'm wrong about any of this.
If it doesn't look like scum will be lynched on Day 1, what possible incentive does scum have to draw attention to themselves by hammering a Townie? Why would they draw attention to themselves by acting any different to how a Townie would be perceived to act, ie announcing intent well in advance, carefully deciding between lynches etc. If I'm scum and two Townies are on the chopping block, I care way more about ensuring I don't come out of the Day looking scummy than about making sure a particular lynch goes through.
So all three scum could have been on the AHoppy wagon. Or two. Or one. Or none. But to assume that all three scum voted together is a horrible assumption, and one that scum quite plausibly wants us to assume.
Thank you Jimmmmm. Exactly what I was saying above (I swear, I wrote it before reading this though).
So far in this PPS fight with Jimmmm, I'm seeing PPS throw out seemingly contradictory ideas left and right, which Jimmmmm notes as well. While I don't think that's good play, to make these contradictory arguments, I do think it is slightly more likely to come from town scrambling a defense together. Scum would make sure their ideas were consistent I believe.
I think this is giving me enough to unvote and I'm seeing TA as slightly townier since he has followed up now. I also have caught myself giving Eevee a pass because I thought the case against him was bad yesterday. I don't have time now, but when I do, I need to re-read him to actually get a read on him.
TA: As far as I can remember, you did not acknowledge the "gaping hole" in your theory until I brought it up...
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OK, caught up past that. I disagree with faust, and I find his jumping to lynching a claimed doctor right away particularly scummy... While sure, the idea looks good on paper, TA makes a very good point saying that if you doubt one of them, then lynch PPS. I was just beginning to think PPS was looking townier (see my post above) and therefore have no reason to doubt this claim. I think we can do better than lynching a claimed cop...
P.S. I'm really sorry TA for dismissing your case yesterday, now that I know you are town. It was good for a D1 case, but I didn't like the missing information and that you didn't qualify in the case that it was missing.
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I feel like PPS has to be the best vote at this point. If we lynch him, either he is scum, which is what we want, or he is now a VT and we know that TA is town. If we're going to lynch town (obviously not ideal but probable if the vote is random) then PPS is definitely the best mislynch, but I was already thinking he was scummy, which makes it a pretty clear decision.
vote: PPS and I think that puts him back at L-2.
Still open to hearing other perspectives though.
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Scott, same question -- do you think PPS is mafia?
We aren't at a point where we can afford a mislynch just to make 1 IC. Once again, 2 dead town is not worth 1 IC.
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Is there anyone who thinks I'm scum?
If so, you are saying that scum PPS, while under pressure, decided to fakeclaim, tying himself to a teammate. That's a very bold scum move, and while certainly possible from anyone else's point of view, I would argue the more likely scum move, if PPS were scum, would be to say that a town member is town. (Which is certainly what could have happened here).
Regardless, if everyone here thinks I am town, which seems to be the prevailing opinion, we learn nothing by lynching PPS. We may hit scum -- and it's very possible that we do, and a fine reason to vote PPS -- but in terms of information, which is the reasoning Faust, Chairs, and Scott are advocating PPS's lynch now, if everyone already thought I was scum, we don't learn too much.
Faust, Chairs, Scott -- do you think there's any chance of me being scum? Do you feel that the chance of me being scum is high enough that it's potentially worth killing two town members to find out?
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Thanks Ahoppy. I am very interested in hearing your updated opinion on Eevee.
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OK, caught up past that. I disagree with faust, and I find his jumping to lynching a claimed doctor right away particularly scummy... While sure, the idea looks good on paper, TA makes a very good point saying that if you doubt one of them, then lynch PPS. I was just beginning to think PPS was looking townier (see my post above) and therefore have no reason to doubt this claim. I think we can do better than lynching a claimed cop...
P.S. I'm really sorry TA for dismissing your case yesterday, now that I know you are town. It was good for a D1 case, but I didn't like the missing information and that you didn't qualify in the case that it was missing.
What? What on earth is this? I've read it a couple times and can't make sense of it. How do you know TA is town?
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Is there anyone who thinks I'm scum?
If so, you are saying that scum PPS, while under pressure, decided to fakeclaim, tying himself to a teammate. That's a very bold scum move, and while certainly possible from anyone else's point of view, I would argue the more likely scum move, if PPS were scum, would be to say that a town member is town. (Which is certainly what could have happened here).
Regardless, if everyone here thinks I am town, which seems to be the prevailing opinion, we learn nothing by lynching PPS. We may hit scum -- and it's very possible that we do, and a fine reason to vote PPS -- but in terms of information, which is the reasoning Faust, Chairs, and Scott are advocating PPS's lynch now, if everyone already thought I was scum, we don't learn too much.
Faust, Chairs, Scott -- do you think there's any chance of me being scum? Do you feel that the chance of me being scum is high enough that it's potentially worth killing two town members to find out?
I think this is fundamentally correct.
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OK, caught up past that. I disagree with faust, and I find his jumping to lynching a claimed doctor right away particularly scummy... While sure, the idea looks good on paper, TA makes a very good point saying that if you doubt one of them, then lynch PPS. I was just beginning to think PPS was looking townier (see my post above) and therefore have no reason to doubt this claim. I think we can do better than lynching a claimed cop...
P.S. I'm really sorry TA for dismissing your case yesterday, now that I know you are town. It was good for a D1 case, but I didn't like the missing information and that you didn't qualify in the case that it was missing.
What? What on earth is this? I've read it a couple times and can't make sense of it. How do you know TA is town?
I'm operating under the assumption that PPS's cop claim is true. It very well may not be, but 1: I was having a townier read on him in the first place and 2:Is there anyone who thinks I'm scum?
If so, you are saying that scum PPS, while under pressure, decided to fakeclaim, tying himself to a teammate. That's a very bold scum move, and while certainly possible from anyone else's point of view, I would argue the more likely scum move, if PPS were scum, would be to say that a town member is town. (Which is certainly what could have happened here).
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Who does TA think we should lynch? Eevee?
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While I think chairs Faust and Scott are dead right, they are mostly townier reads for me (except for Scott, but he's closer to null than scummy) while ahoppy is a townier read. Definitely need to delve further into pps' claim and see what it says about his alignment.
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Who does TA think we should lynch? Eevee?
[/quote
Too scum reads are eevee and ahoppy, also have archetype, Scott, and maaaaybe Yuma in null-scummy range.
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Yes, my main reason for voting PPS is that I was already considering voting for him anyway before he claimed; I'm just saying that now he is definitely the best vote for me, since he was already at the top of my list and now he's the best mislynch. I do not think anyone should vote him if they think someone else is more likely scum (unless it's like, really really close between him and someone else).
And yeah, I think it's possible you (TA) are scum, probably unlikely, but that's really not my main reason for voting PPS. It's just sort of a side benefit if PPS flips town.
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I definitely feel that ahoppy was trying to discredit rather than defend against my eevee case -- I stated in the original case that it was incomplete and the next step was to look at eevee town games, yet the case still got shot down as having a gaping hole. This discredit rather than defend tactic is one that has been used as scum, specifically by ashersky in the past -- no idea if scum ahoppy would do the same but it's something to note.
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While I think chairs Faust and Scott are dead right, they are mostly townier reads for me (except for Scott, but he's closer to null than scummy) while ahoppy is a townier read. Definitely need to delve further into pps' claim and see what it says about his alignment.
You mean dead wrong?
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SCUMSLIP!
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The next step, of course, which I haven't taken, is to go back and read games where Eevee was town, and see how exclusive this trait is to his town games, if at all. I will hopefully get to that soon.
Oh wow... I just saw this... Somehow I think I missed this when creating my "anti-case" on TA's Eevee case. So now I feel even worse for discrediting this. Tonight or tomorrow, when I get time, I will re-read Eevee and this case and submit my new thoughts on it.
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Is there anyone who thinks I'm scum?
If so, you are saying that scum PPS, while under pressure, decided to fakeclaim, tying himself to a teammate. That's a very bold scum move, and while certainly possible from anyone else's point of view, I would argue the more likely scum move, if PPS were scum, would be to say that a town member is town. (Which is certainly what could have happened here).
Regardless, if everyone here thinks I am town, which seems to be the prevailing opinion, we learn nothing by lynching PPS. We may hit scum -- and it's very possible that we do, and a fine reason to vote PPS -- but in terms of information, which is the reasoning Faust, Chairs, and Scott are advocating PPS's lynch now, if everyone already thought I was scum, we don't learn too much.
Faust, Chairs, Scott -- do you think there's any chance of me being scum? Do you feel that the chance of me being scum is high enough that it's potentially worth killing two town members to find out?
I think this is fundamentally correct.
(quoting this quote because I'm lazy, but referencing the original post here)
I don't see where we're killing two town members to find out you're scum. Either A) PPS flips town, in which case you're an IC, or B) PPS flips scum, in which case we then have to determine whether he WIFOM'd calling you out as his fakecop result as either scum or town. in A), we mislynch one. In B) we potentially mislynch one if we decide this makes you scummier.
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Unvote
If PPS is scum, Twistedarcher isn't his partner. And vice-versa, but not as certain. I think PPS learned from Time War Mafia that tying yourself to your partner as scum is bad news. I'm willing to give PPS a pass for it for now though. It does go along with the idea that scum!PPS is acting super-scummy on purpose to not get lynched, but I'm at least willing to give him a pass for now.
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My wife being ill is quite trying right now so I'll have to keep this brief.
I thought I fairly well breadcrumbed this investigation yesterday. faust pretty much forced me to directly deny it. I didn't reveal my results when I did because of where my wagon was, that would be ridiculous since an obvious move is to lynch me, not to back off on the wagon. I revealed the information because I tend to agree with faust that the time was ripe for it and because TA was starting to look otherwise desperate with his efforts towards Eevee.
I do feel we are better off trying to actually hit scum as opposed to lynching me for the benefit of ICing TA which I think creates an interesting predicament for any doctors. This predicament was one of the primary reasons I was hesitant to divulge and I think it warrants discussion before we go into night. If TA stays doctored then everyone else is a forgone NK. Scum would be stupid to shoot for TA because he is the most likely to be doctored. So I think it presents a real WIFOM for the doctors.
Another issue with the reveal is that in the case we proceed with my mislynch then there's no good signal to noise ration to work on my wagon tomorrow. The exalted creation of an IC is a worthy pass for whoever is on my wagon at the end of the day despite the fact that a Townie just got lynched.
Well, it didn't seem so brief but I got everything on my mind out there and I am disclaiming I may not be available to respond for awhile except maybe just for a small window later tonight.
All that said, AHoppy seems to enthusiastic to move off my wagon now that my lynch looks like a done deal. Thus, he can avoid any suspicion at all tomorrow. Vote: AHoppy
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Eevee has really not had many town normal games lately...
Dynasty Warriors 2, he didn't place a vote in his first 20 posts, which goes against the examples of Eevee finding a town player scummy for "normally stereotypical scum play"
Dynasty Warrios 1 is a little bit different...his first vote is in his 6th ost of the game, quoted below
Nothing else was going on, huh? There was a wagon forming on TA!! Why would you want to revert us back to rvs when ash, yuma and TA had just gotten the game going?
Voting someone for not following the norms also annoys me greatly, even if it's my frustration leaking through, I'm going to vote: sudgy.
That you realized you got caught of scummy behavior and tried to make it all a joke to escape the suspicion is also a believable scum narrative for me.
This seems to me to be more of an emotional, annoyed post than a "Ok, this person has exhibited scummy behavior". I may be stretching this to fit my case, but I think this differs from the early examples of Eevee scum games of Eevee playing and voting early from his head, and not his gut / his emotions...behavior I think he exhibited this game.
I can go do more Eevee town games, but you all can do that too if you want to.
Yuma, why does the fact that the Eevee/Ahoppy wagons didn't go D1 make you not want to revisit them? Isn't a scum wagon more likely to stall than a town wagon, especially one that just stopped at 4 votes like the Eevee wagon? Which wagon is more likely to stall at 4 votes...a scum wagon, which only has 10 town members to push it up (assuming no bussing), or a town wagon, which has 12 scum/town members to push it up? I don't follow why the fact that the wagons didn't happen D1 makes them less likely to be scum.
Bumping this back up.
With TA as Town, that last paragraph is pretty interesting. I still lean slight scum on Eevee and would be willing to lynch him. AHoppy I'd still rather have someone investigate him purely because I think he's more likely Town and his alignment will glean much more information than Eevee's would.
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I know there is no way to prove this to you PPS, but I had unvoted you before I knew you had claimed anything or knew you were going to be lynched... But look back at #1178. I posted that as soon as I got to your claim in my catching up.
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In other words, I was thinking a Mafia result should be delivered immediately whereas a Town result might better be held until later in the day.
I disagree with this premise completely. I feel the complete opposite about it. I think a mafia result should be held--see Jimmm's use of it in Chocolate factory that I think if town had better analyzed the info that came because of it would have been somewhat indicative of teproc's and voltaire's alignment--whereas reads on someone who is town are rather meaningless
That said, I know see that you have claimed.
I believe the claim. Well I guess I should qualify that. I don't think that scum would at this point fake claim their partner to be town. So I strongly, emphatically believe that TA is town. I still think PPS is town, but not because of his claim. In fact his claim makes me find him somewhat scummier than before, but certainly not enough to lynch.
I strongly oppose what faust is suggesting here. STRONGLY! we don't lynch for information. especially when such information is a 1 for 1 trade and when that information is already very strongly implied! If you think PPS is scum, vote for him, but be prepared to explain why and document it. but do not vote for him just to get information. Because in my eyes... we already have the information.
I am not going to go around telling people who to target, but I think a far, far better way to do this, instead of lynching PPS, is to have him be a potential cop target tonight.
1. if he is targeted we learned he is town and that TA is town 100% at the same time.
2. if he is NKed... yes we lose that cop data (from whoever copped him), but we learn that TA is town 100% of the time and we don't lose a cop from a different night as scum targeted PPS and not another cop.
3. if he is scum, he is outed and we can then decide what to do with TA... He is probably still town, but at least we can think about it.
Again, I am not saying that cops should 100% target PPS, but I do think they should at least strongly consider it, WIFOM to the mafia... make them decide whether or not to kill him... or to kill elsewhere.
I am more suspicious of chairs now. Faust I am not sure about as this sort of thinking seems rather extreme for town. I know there were others that reacted strangely in regard to this claim, but can't exactly remember who they were.
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Yuma, why does the fact that the Eevee/Ahoppy wagons didn't go D1 make you not want to revisit them? Isn't a scum wagon more likely to stall than a town wagon, especially one that just stopped at 4 votes like the Eevee wagon? Which wagon is more likely to stall at 4 votes...a scum wagon, which only has 10 town members to push it up (assuming no bussing), or a town wagon, which has 12 scum/town members to push it up? I don't follow why the fact that the wagons didn't happen D1 makes them less likely to be scum.
It is psychological. I purely admit that. It is something I have discussed before with Robz specifically and others. But in my mind... those lynch attempts were already tried and town rejected them (well town and scum, I do try to keep that in mind). So it is hard to get the motivation to be behind something that at least right now appears to be the same as the day1 case when the day1 case didn't get them lynched. Nothing has changed in the case really... I mean maybe a bit, but for the most part it seems the same... So if it wasn't good enough then? Why would it be good enough now? For me to get "excited" about that lynch something has to change it from not good enough to good enough now.
That is my thinking. I don't say it is good thinking, but that is how I approach it.
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Chairs, Faust: Do you think that PPS is scum? Yes/no
Maybe. If I were scum this game, and I wanted to get a Town member on my side, one thing I would definitely consider is claiming Cop. I could also see this being a really clever scum ploy where he clears you, and you guys slide through on the excuse that PPS is just a VT now and you're an IC so probably doctored. So in my mind, there's three possibilities:
PPS is town + TA is town = lynching PPS generates IC TA.
PPS is scum + TA is town = lynching PPS lynches scum.
PPS is scum + TA is scum = lynching PPS lynches scum.
I'm weighting the first two possibilities equally and the third possibility as somewhat lower. I still feel like this is a solid lynch choice.
I think this is where the logic fails. I think that scum is so unlikely to do option 3 (like extremely unlikely in my opinion on day2 because if TA ever flips (or if we start to notice that he isn't flipping as an IC) for whatever reason PPS is doomed) that TA is basically a quasi-IC in my estimation right now. So why lynch someone that you don't think is scum to get to a point where we already are?
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Yuma always aggressively attacks people suspecting him for bad reasons, that's why he never gets lynched. Not all cases are slam dunk affairs though, I think "came off scummier in the weird exchange with Robz, hasn't seemed towny in his other dealings" is a fine enough reason to vote.
In fact, Vote: yuma and see what happens.
Apparently I missed this before... Can you elaborate on the "came off scummier" part of this post? As well as the "hasn't seemed towny in his other dealings."
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I agree 1000% with everything in #1200.
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I agree 1000% with everything in #1200.
Hey! Hey! Hey! That's my post guys!
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Ok... I don't have a vote down. I want to put one down and see if that helps move us toward a lynch especially as I don't like the wagon on PPS at all, so obviously I want a lynch that is not that....
Process of elimination time: (I know I already did this, but PPS's claim has changed things a bit...) PPS is out. TA is out. I still think scott is out (although he is one who jumped onto the voting PPS for information wagon), but I'll leave him out for now.
People already know I have a scummy read on Robz, but that apparently isn't happening, so moveon.org
People left: faust, chairs, eevee, archetype, ahoppy, Jimmmm. As mentioned before Jimmmm has read sincere if a little busy to me. I might go back and focus on him if none of these strike me as where I want my vote, but I think looking at the others is the way to go. I am going to try and erase any preconceptions I have about ahoppy and eevee (as well as chairs I think as perhaps I have been holding on too tightly to that early town read on him for forgetting about the game?)
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So let's start with chairs... should be an easy read:
- takes a safe approach to the claiming discussion
- has his "forgot about the game moment"
- has suspicion of ahoppy and votes there and his reads list is notably full of "null" reads as well as a scumread on Robz that has a slight mark of doing it because he does it as town... that is I don't really see any reasoning behind it... so it kinda looks like he is just saying it because that is what we would expect from town!chairs?
- has two joke votes on me and ta (not sure if this is significant)
- goes back to Ahoppy despite saying it is not a great lynch (I guess it is day1, but my idea for day1 is that if you aren't on a great lynch, go and find a great lynch...)
Day2:
- weird vote on me with the 90% sure I am scum over Robz... what happened to the scumread on Robz from day1? What changed? And don't just say "gut feeling"
- I guess he didn't vote PPS, said he almost derphammered!?!?! and wants to vote him for info along with some bad logic I think (bad logic isn't scummy, but still isn't my favorite)
So summary: not a lot to work with. The town read I had on him is gone. I don't know if he is the best lynch, but he is a potential one.
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I agree with this PoE.
Out for me: Yuma/Robz (I don't read either as particularly scummy), PPS, Jimmmm, Faust. I'd be ok with lynching Scott, but I don't think that will happen, so I'll leave him out, too.
That leaves me with: Eevee, Ahoppy, Chairs, Archetype. I would not be surprised, and I actually expect, there to be multiple scum in this group. I think this is a pretty similar list to what Yuma has, except that he doesn't share my townread on Faust.
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what Yuma has, except that he doesn't share my townread on Faust.
I would to hear why you think he is town (general stuff if you don't have time for specifics) so that I can keep that in mind when I reread him... unless you would rather me give out my thoughts before you do so? Mostly I think it would just make the reread easier for me...
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I'm not going to dig up specific quotes, but I think his play, if he's scum, would be extremely, extremely bold. He has been wrong on theory all game I think, but he's been genuine and really putting himself out there, which I don't know if he would do as scum. But I am happy to listen to why you think he's scum (if you do), and my read is less solid than it was on D1.
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Archetype:
- Theory talking
- Votes eevee for being a low poster and then very soon after gives a popsquiz. Interesting to note here that he has eevee listed alonge as "scummy" although he does say that he reread the whole thread. This is a constant reason I find archetype scummy. He says people are scummy w/o giving explanation or reason and I need to make sure I acknowledge it...
- votes for Robz... said it was because he thought Robz was going to vote w/o giving Ahoppy a chance to speak. I don't know if I totally buy that... this is robz we are talking about....
- expressed a strong town read on Ahoppy (again w/o reasons or rationale)
- ends up on the teproc wagon
day2:
- comes out really strong on eevee again... still w/ no explanation. I mean he isn't even saying "I agree with TA's case and am sheeping it..."
- votes for scotty. I think this is where I start seeing some very scummy posts from arch. This is certainly one of them (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9946.msg338926#msg338926)
- this is another (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9946.msg339622#msg339622) wanting to know Ahoppy's alignment for info purposes
- I found this post odd as well (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9946.msg340064#msg340064)
- This one too! (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9946.msg340410#msg340410) as he basically says that all of them have excuses and reasons for not being scummy... but in the end he is ok to vote for all of them
- And another one! (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9946.msg340551#msg340551) For starters... forgot where we are "vote count wise" but decides to go ahead and vote is not the way to a happy and productive mafia life. Check the vote count! But my main point is how easily he is convinced by Jimmmm's case that PPS is acting so scummy so he can't be scum argument, which I feel is the weakest of all the arguments that Jimmmm made as it has so rarely been successful in the past and is a very dangerous way to play for scum
- I think it is worth nothing that despite the strong scum read on eevee arch has completely abandoned and has never really brought it up again or looked into it like he said he would at the start.
So basically I find a lot of stuff from Arch to be scummy. But I don't trust myself to read Arch. I can't remember the last time I correctly read him... Time Wars I thought he was town/he was mafia. Toy Story I thought he was scum/he was town. LotR2 I thought he was scum/he was town. Pirates2 I thought he was scum/he was town. Oh I do remember the last time... it was Bankers where I thought he was scum and he was!
So I guess what I want is this... for someone(s) to read archetype and let me know if they agree with me or if I am completely off base, perhaps someone who has read arch better than me in the past. Does someone like that exist around these parts?
Until then I am willing, but extremely hesitant to vote for him.
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Eevee's turn!
- stays away from theory talk
- votes for TA - because he is making too much sense in the theory talk. I don't know about eevee's theory here that scum is sane and town is radical... because I know I am town and tried to be sane and balanced in my assessment of theory talk. So I think it is kinda of a stretch.
- starts out with an early scum read on me and has been alluding to it over and over again throughout the game (something that I guess I saw at the times, but never really connected together until rereading)
- honestly, he had a really bad day1. He just doesn't suspect anyone except for TA and me (from my pov the two most townie players around)
- this post (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9946.msg337136#msg337136) was an assertion that I believe was false and intended to discredit my vote on him that was never backed up despite my request for it to be so.
- meta section: I do agree somewhat with TA that eevee does feel more like the eevee of scum. It is hard to put a finger on although I think TA does manage to get a finger, but for me to lynch solely off meta I need more than a finger... So I think there might be something here, but I need more...
- joins the teproc wagon more out of self preservation, but notable that he chooses it over the ahoppy wagon.
Day2
- says something is fishy about the robz-yuma argument, but doesn't say what or who
- ends up deciding that Robz was more townie than me
- some stuff--more townie eevee--coming through here in regard to the PPS-Jimmm stuff and Archetype/chairs % stuff...
- here is something that I find compelling. eevee now says as I already pointed out that I came off scummier (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9946.msg340802#msg340802) than robz in our argument. Alone this isn't that important. But together with previous posts and with a lack of other posts explaining it, this makes me question it.
- more stuff that is mixed, won't reference it all...
Here is my thought process (part of my difficultly in analyzing these sort of things is that my read of Robz starts interfering with it, so for this purpose I am going to put Robz at a null read and say he has a decent chance of being town).... Robz and I get into an argument. Eevee comes in and sees an opportunity to get a mislynch out of us. He states without any reason that there is something fishy and that one of us is scummy. He then states that Robz had a townie reaction. Much later he decides that because I came off scummier I should be voted upon. So there is something lacking here! He doesn't try and figure out if it is actually a town vs town fight. He just states that it looks fishy and assumes (or pretends to assume) that there is one scum in it. He then eliminates one player from the group and then leaves me to be the scummy player and votes for me. You see what I am trying to say here? I think this is something scum can do. They can forget about that step in trying to create a mislynch opportunity...
Summary: there is a handful of stuff on either side of the aisle. but what has really raised eevee up in my estimation is what I just outlined above. The missing step in regard to robz and me. I do need to rethink it in terms of Robz... Well maybe that isn't fair. There is a chance I am wrong about Robz... I dont' think I am, but goodness I have been wrong before... so maybe not. But basically I would be willing to vote here for that a number of things I mentioned above.
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I don't know if I should be worried that I agree with everything that Yuma writes..I THINK you are town, but you could just be doing a great job buddying me.
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I guess Ahoppy and faust will have to wait until tomorrow, along with my vote.
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I don't know if I should be worried that I agree with everything that Yuma writes..I THINK you are town, but you could just be doing a great job buddying me.
I don't think you should be worried. I also agree with everything yuma just said, and I didn't have a town read on him, as you well know.
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I don't know if I should be worried that I agree with everything that Yuma writes..I THINK you are town, but you could just be doing a great job buddying me.
I don't think you should be worried. I also agree with everything yuma just said, and I didn't have a town read on him, as you well know.
Do you agree with the reads on Archetype/ Eevee?
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I completely agree with the read on Archetype. And how yuma feels about Archetype is the same way I feel about him. When I'm town, I'm always wrong about his alignment (and when I'm scum, I see him as a great mislynch). So I've developed a natural hesitance toward lynching him.
Eevee... I guess, well, that's not what I've thought about Eevee but I could see it being the way yuma puts. I've found Eevee very townie on Day 1, and of course I'm more inclined to seeing him agreeing with me in my argument with yuma as townie of him. But, you know, I could definitely see it being the way yuma says. Early reads are always wrong, and mine are no better than anyone else's.
Let me put it this way... yuma frames Eevee's actions in a scum narrative that makes complete sense to me. It didn't occur to me, and I didn't know if it's right, but it makes sense.
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Scott, same question -- do you think PPS is mafia?
We aren't at a point where we can afford a mislynch just to make 1 IC. Once again, 2 dead town is not worth 1 IC.
It completely misses the point to paint this as "trade two dead town for 1 IC". I mean, it's in no way certain that we'll hit scum if we don't lynch pps. And if we don't, we traded two dead townies and one extra power for nothing. And how is it even certain that pps is a mislynch? If we're just going to give TA and pps a free pass, then this could be the most successful scum gambit ever.
Just judging by the reactions it caused, I am more inclined to believe that pps is scum right now.
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I am not going to go around telling people who to target, but I think a far, far better way to do this, instead of lynching PPS, is to have him be a potential cop target tonight.
1. if he is targeted we learned he is town and that TA is town 100% at the same time.
2. if he is NKed... yes we lose that cop data (from whoever copped him), but we learn that TA is town 100% of the time and we don't lose a cop from a different night as scum targeted PPS and not another cop.
3. if he is scum, he is outed and we can then decide what to do with TA... He is probably still town, but at least we can think about it.
Now that is a decent idea, but at the moment, we are two Cops down. It's easily possible that we don't get another investigation result. And if we don't, and take TA/pps to some LyLo situation because we think they might still get investigated, what then?
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Now regarding yuma's cases, I think the one on Archetype is stronger than that on Eevee. For one, I can quite well relate to Eevee's post saying there was something fishy going on between yuma/Robz, as I felt the same way. And I don't think the other points brought up makes Eevee scummy enough to be a good lynch target.
I could vote for Robz/Archetype/AHoppy if it turns out that the majority here is against a pps lynch. AHoppy's most recent posts also had a certain scummy feel on them. Maybe I can grasp what exactly that is.
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As to faust's question, I don't know. I don't see what makes it more likely that I am scum when I was at L-1 twice. Perhaps scum didn't want to be the hammer, so they couldn't switch off teproc/not voting (I can't remember who wasn't voting when, but I think there were some not voting).
But why wouldn't scum want to hammer? Not lynching you meant a semi-random lynch at this point, which is dangerous for scum becasue it might end up hitting them, and if it does, there's not enough time to create an alternate wagon.
AHoppy's most recent post is interesting. But a statement like "yeah, you should probably lynch me" just doesn't sit right with me. After all, if he's a PR who still has a shot, why say this? I will keep my vote there for now.
This was not my intention. I was looking from the collective town's POV: It makes more sense to lynch me that hope to cop me. The way I see it, we have a pretty good chance of not getting any cop results tomorrow either because our D2 cop is dead, or will be dead in the morning, or because we don't have one at all! OTOH, killing me enables stronger reads on end of D1 shenanigans, which may be just as successful as one successful cop/doc. I'm thinking through it logically for the good of the many, and I came to the conclusion that my death could be more helpful than my life. I'd still rather you didn't kill me, but if it must be done, it must.
The "collective town POV" is really rubbing me the wrong way. If you're town, your POV is fine, no need to put much thought in what the collective would want. It's only as scum that you're trying to figure out what town as a whole might think is good, and for that reason try to take a collective town POV.
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OK, caught up past that. I disagree with faust, and I find his jumping to lynching a claimed doctor right away particularly scummy... While sure, the idea looks good on paper, TA makes a very good point saying that if you doubt one of them, then lynch PPS. I was just beginning to think PPS was looking townier (see my post above) and therefore have no reason to doubt this claim. I think we can do better than lynching a claimed cop...
P.S. I'm really sorry TA for dismissing your case yesterday, now that I know you are town. It was good for a D1 case, but I didn't like the missing information and that you didn't qualify in the case that it was missing.
What's that "we can do better than that" thing supposed to mean? Is it now inherently bad to lynch a claimed Cop (who, mind you, isn't even a Cop anymore, he's just a VT)? This followed by buddying the close-to-IC... I think there's scummy stuff going on here.
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As to faust's question, I don't know. I don't see what makes it more likely that I am scum when I was at L-1 twice. Perhaps scum didn't want to be the hammer, so they couldn't switch off teproc/not voting (I can't remember who wasn't voting when, but I think there were some not voting).
But why wouldn't scum want to hammer? Not lynching you meant a semi-random lynch at this point, which is dangerous for scum becasue it might end up hitting them, and if it does, there's not enough time to create an alternate wagon.
AHoppy's most recent post is interesting. But a statement like "yeah, you should probably lynch me" just doesn't sit right with me. After all, if he's a PR who still has a shot, why say this? I will keep my vote there for now.
This was not my intention. I was looking from the collective town's POV: It makes more sense to lynch me that hope to cop me. The way I see it, we have a pretty good chance of not getting any cop results tomorrow either because our D2 cop is dead, or will be dead in the morning, or because we don't have one at all! OTOH, killing me enables stronger reads on end of D1 shenanigans, which may be just as successful as one successful cop/doc. I'm thinking through it logically for the good of the many, and I came to the conclusion that my death could be more helpful than my life. I'd still rather you didn't kill me, but if it must be done, it must.
The "collective town POV" is really rubbing me the wrong way. If you're town, your POV is fine, no need to put much thought in what the collective would want. It's only as scum that you're trying to figure out what town as a whole might think is good, and for that reason try to take a collective town POV.
The "collective town POV" is distinct from the "AHoppy POV" because the "collective town POV" cannot assume AHoppy is town.
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Scott, same question -- do you think PPS is mafia?
We aren't at a point where we can afford a mislynch just to make 1 IC. Once again, 2 dead town is not worth 1 IC.
It completely misses the point to paint this as "trade two dead town for 1 IC". I mean, it's in no way certain that we'll hit scum if we don't lynch pps. And if we don't, we traded two dead townies and one extra power for nothing. And how is it even certain that pps is a mislynch? If we're just going to give TA and pps a free pass, then this could be the most successful scum gambit ever.
It does not completely miss the point. Lynching's whole point is to hit scum... not to get information... especially information that I think we basically already have. Maybe that will help spell this out.
In my opinion TA is 95% town. Because I don't think day2 that mafia would fake claim copping their own partner... too many bad things can happen and screw them over and be down 2 players just like that... day3 or day4 maybe? But now... no.
So for me lynching PPS who for me is a town read isn't worth that 5% difference in knowing TA's alignment. It wouldn't even be worth it if PPS was a null read.
Now if he was a scum read... then sure it would be worth it. the 5% would be a side benefit. But I hardly thing it should be the primary motivation for this... Hence why I think that TA asking if you have a scum read on PPS is imperative.
So, do you have a scum read on him?
Just judging by the reactions it caused, I am more inclined to believe that pps is scum right now.
Or maybe you are just the one in the wrong. Sure it could be a gambit. Cause before you decide that it is a gambit you have to prove to me going back and finding evidence that 1. pps is scum 2. that ta is scum and 3. that they are fake claiming here together. You can't just say, let's lynch PPS to find out. No you have to show that it is highly probable first. You haven't done that. You just automatically voted PPS. Show me that it is probably, then I'll consider it. Until then, I am going to stick with my town read on PPS and town read on TA.
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I am not going to go around telling people who to target, but I think a far, far better way to do this, instead of lynching PPS, is to have him be a potential cop target tonight.
1. if he is targeted we learned he is town and that TA is town 100% at the same time.
2. if he is NKed... yes we lose that cop data (from whoever copped him), but we learn that TA is town 100% of the time and we don't lose a cop from a different night as scum targeted PPS and not another cop.
3. if he is scum, he is outed and we can then decide what to do with TA... He is probably still town, but at least we can think about it.
Now that is a decent idea, but at the moment, we are two Cops down. It's easily possible that we don't get another investigation result. And if we don't, and take TA/pps to some LyLo situation because we think they might still get investigated, what then?
If you are so suspicious of PPS's claim that he is a cop... then why are you so sure that we are two cops down? If you think PPS is scum, then we should only be one cop down.
this post to me is raising a giant red flag! It seems to me that cognitively you believe PPS's claim, but that you want to lynch him anyways (because you want that mislynch w/o responsibility because you are just "doing it for information for TA")
I sitll need to look you over, but you might have just jumped to the top of my suspicions with this post despite TA's town read on you.
And again, I am not saying give TA and PPS a pass. But rather lynch them if you think they are scummy. I don't think they are scummy and won't lynch them just for info.
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Damn, yuma, that is a nice catch. The discrepancy in being suspicious of me and then clearly enunciating the notion that we are in fact 2 cops down is highly suspect.
Vote: faust
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Faust:
- had a different take on the theory; also very pro-no-lynch (again, not indicative of alignment, but noting it) in early discussion
- had the early jump on me that I found suspicious early
- I actually think he did a good job of voting and questioning people throughout early day1 while most everyone was talking theory and he was talking theory himself. votes on me and pps and no-lynch of course
- moves to a teproc vote, primarily for defending eevee
- defends against an ahoppy lynch quite aggressively
- ends up voting chairs in a vote that I don't like, but is very similar to what got faust lynched in Game of Thrones day1 (he was town) if I remember correctly... throwing down a vote on someone who wasn't going to get lynched and then leaving for the day (although he did end up coming back, he just said he was leaving for the day)... so I don't know what to say about that...
- came back, voted for teproc
Day2
- he has been significantly more absent during day2.
- ends up seeing robz scummy on the argument between the two of us
- suggests an ahoppy lynch... it appears primarily for information to analyze from day1? What about information to analyze from day2 faust? He doesn't really explain if he has a scum read on ahoppy... in fact it is a pretty solid reversal from his read on day1.
- another post about wanting to know alignments of yuma, robz and ahoppy.. "which one to lynch" so again, I am trying to figure out why he is so obsessed with learning alignment and not as interested in lynching scum....
- Ok... so here (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9946.msg340730#msg340730) he says that he is not convinced by the case made on PPS from Jimmm. So I take it that he doesn't have a scum read on PPS at this point?
- instead he is far, far more interested in lynch ahoppy to the point that he is demaning people explain why they aren't voting for him....
- immediately after PPS claims he votes for PPS. Still just for information it appears.
- L-1's PPS and then gets indignant when people want to unvote...
- then this (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9946.msg341288#msg341288) post I mentioned before about him believing two cops are used up, but still wanting to lynch PPS seems like a difference in cognition.
Summary:
I do agree that faust is playing aggressively. TA has said that he thinks faust is town because of this. I don't necessarily find faust scummy for playing aggressively, nor do I find him townie. I think that just goes along more with personality (as we have seen him do some rather "wild" things before as both alignments). I don't abide by the whole "scum will play extremely crazy just to avoid a mislynch" theory but I don't think faust is playing extremely crazy...
Instead I think he is much more in the middle ground for most of the game. He has taken some strong approaches, but in terms of scum hunting he has kinda remained in the background and only just barely started to take a very active role day2. There have been some scummy things he has done. The latest one I think the most egregious.
I would be willing to vote for him. I don't know if I would be more willing to vote here over eevee or arch or robz, but I think I would be willing.
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Looking back at Ahoppy, it's just so strange that he defended Eevee so strongly, when going into my case, he had a town read on me and a null read on Eevee...
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internet on-air, wippii!
yuma, I don't think I missed a step. the step where I assessed something felt fishy was when you
both being town got bumped to a lower probability. the fight didn't seem like something you two would have as town, so.
I strongly disagree with faust, even with my bias of not reading TA particularly towny before, I'm willing to treat him as town for the town being. PPS was a townread for me even before (but if
they aren't town-town, I think PPS scum TA town is the second most likely).
meh, yuma is impossible to lynch, because he makes sure to stay active and doesn't slip in obvious ways, so there is always someone scummier and whenever yuma gets voted, he vehemently attacks the voter demanding better, more accurate reasons. i don't know who else I'd like to lynch, faust's radical ideas are not correct in my eyes but I don't think they are scummy,
ahoppy I think has mostly been hisself (hard to read for me).
I guess I could get behind archetype as well, but I've been wrong about him so often in the past, I'm kind of disheartened.
vote: yuma
PoE, hasn't given a town vibe in any of the numerous issues he has been a part of, strong attacks against everyone who suspects him, the weird debacle with robz where I think robz felt more genuine
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Eevee, what about Yuma's play is scummy? I don't see many reasons in there. It says that scum!Yuma is hard to lynch but you haven't said why you think he's scum yuma in that post.
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FWIW, I think Yuma would be an excellent cop target
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Eevee, what about Yuma's play is scummy? I don't see many reasons in there. It says that scum!Yuma is hard to lynch but you haven't said why you think he's scum yuma in that post.
he often has seemed very towny at this point already, and that hasn't happened here. something felt off in the argument with robz, and robz felt sincere to me even if I think I should always be super paranoid of him when he reads me as town. this is just my impression, but I feel yuma is going against anyone who suspects him extra hard in this game.
it's way less towny of yuma to not exhibit in classic scummy voting or behavior patterns. lack of those is not really evidence of his towniness if he never
shows them when he is scum.
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internet on-air, wippii!
yuma, I don't think I missed a step. the step where I assessed something felt fishy was when you
both being town got bumped to a lower probability. the fight didn't seem like something you two would have as town, so.
But you didn't explain why that is. You unilaterally said that it was "fishy" and left it at that and then removed Robz and were left with me.
meh, yuma is impossible to lynch, because he makes sure to stay active and doesn't slip in obvious ways, so there is always someone scummier and whenever yuma gets voted, he vehemently attacks the voter demanding better, more accurate reasons. i don't know who else I'd like to lynch, faust's radical ideas are not correct in my eyes but I don't think they are scummy
I see nothing wrong with demanding reasons for why people are voting for me. I don't think I vehemently attacks the voter. but I demand accountability. Yes, I do this as both town and mafia and see absolutely no problem with it at all... Especially as town I want that person to back up what they are saying and not be left off the hook for accusing someone who is town (me!). Once I understand their reasons I can look and see if a town player might think along those lines or if I feel that player is mafia trying to get me mislynched. So you can question that part I guess. But I don't think you can question my insistence that reasoning is provided...
PoE, hasn't given a town vibe in any of the numerous issues he has been a part of, strong attacks against everyone who suspects him, the weird debacle with robz where I think robz felt more genuine
So because I don't have a town vibe does that mean I have a scum vibe? Or is it that you just can't read me? Strong attacks again I think is wrong... I press people for accountability, especially when these votes are accompanied with "gut reads" or "vibe feelings" or just plain nothing... I don't think the robz/yuma interaction is a debacle. Why use that wording? It is still very possible that Robz is scum here... so it isn't a debacle, at least not yet it isn't... And ok, you feel robz is more genuine... but that doesn't mean I am scum. It means you decided one of us is scum or a mislynch target beforehand and then settled on me.
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Yuma always aggressively attacks people suspecting him for bad reasons, that's why he never gets lynched. Not all cases are slam dunk affairs though, I think "came off scummier in the weird exchange with Robz, hasn't seemed towny in his other dealings" is a fine enough reason to vote.
In fact, Vote: yuma and see what happens.
Apparently I missed this before... Can you elaborate on the "came off scummier" part of this post? As well as the "hasn't seemed towny in his other dealings."
To elaborate on above... I don't think your above post answered these questions of mine. They were just rephrased your statements in different words...
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Eevee, you say you are PoEing into voting Yuma...can you explain this PoE? Cause we haven't caught any scum yet and besides me/PPS don't have any IC types..
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I also don't like the inference that Yuma is scum because he came off scummier than Robz (which I do agree with), it implies that there's definitely scum in Yuma/Robz, which I am thinking isn't the case.
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Yuma, I have enough doubts about Faust that I don't want to lynch him today, and I think he's been more of an asset, if town, than Ahoppy/Eevee/Archetype is. I think we should lynch in Eevee/Ahoppy/Archetype...
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Also, would love for Jimmm to start posting more
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If I expect town yuma to seem towny, then you seeming null is scummy because the times you were town, I'd often have gotten a different impression.
No, I don't have any specific examples, you are not the kind of player that falls into the obvious pitfalls as scum nor am I the kind of player that's good at figuring out scummy voting patterns. I actually think a lot of the contradictionary stuff we lynch people over is in reality quite null, but creating meaningful interactions to help with clutch end game decisions is an important function of early lynches so that's ultimately ok.
Long story short, no, I'm not able to word my suspicion on you eloquently. My process was thinking through the player list (starting from bigger wagons) and eliminating people I don't think we should lynch. I was left with a preference order of something like yuma - archetype - chairs - ahoppy - scott - faust - jimm - robz - pps - ta.
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I really just want to lynch Eevee..
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of the too five of my list, yuma is the only player I don't traditionally view as scummy. I have a long history of always thinking yuma is towny and archetype is scummy,so if I view them both as suspicious without being able to put a finger on it, I'm going to support lynching yuma.
all this being said, my reads are incredibly foggy in this game, I don't know why but apart from TA's towniness (that totally caught me off guard, up until pps's claim I suspected him), I really don't have much on any of my reads, town or scum.
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Do you traditionally view Scott and Ahoppy as scummy? When was this?
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Do you traditionally view Scott and Ahoppy as scummy? When was this?
I've had a scumread on Ahoppy in every game we've ever played and he has been town every time. I realized this in MC after they claimed with Voltaire, his style just hits the spot for my scum model, him posting rarely but long is just something that always leaves me an impression he is avoiding heated interactive back and forths and making safe comments when issues are already mostly resolved even though in reality it's just a timezone/availability thing.
Scott I obviously haven't played with before, and I'll admit the fact that others have such strong town reads on him might be clouding my judgement. Still, generally new players have often played super towny in their first games, usually by doing things that are traditionally thought of as so scummy no real scum would ever really do them. fwiw, I had this same thought about ichimaru in dw2 (although that read was way stronger, my general grip for that game was much better) and he turned up scum.
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vote: eevee
based off my points. based slightly off sheeping the IC and based off this continued idea that I am scum but not being willing or able to back any of it up.
also, eevee I don't buy this stuff about ahoppy. I believe Ahoppy has only played two games previously. Yes, one you may have found him scummy (MC), but the other was Mean Girls. You were scum in that game so couldn't have found him scummy.... so I don't think that is enough of a data pool (one game) for you to say that you have a consistent scummy read on him
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Yuma, I have enough doubts about Faust that I don't want to lynch him today, and I think he's been more of an asset, if town, than Ahoppy/Eevee/Archetype is. I think we should lynch in Eevee/Ahoppy/Archetype...
Alright, I would still like to see people's thoughts on the cop thing I highlighted before, but I am pretty much in between on eevee or faust (or Robz as I have mentioned like a million times now).
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well, even as scum i do try to "suspect" people i'd suspect as town and i believe this is ahoppy's fourth game, not like i went back to check though.
I do believe I backed it up sufficiently, you haven't had issues like this with my playing style earlier when my vote didn't land on you.
but yea, you are obviously within your rights to vote for me, but it does feel like another attempt to attack/discredit anyone who voices suspicion on you.
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He also played RMM8. But I have no idea what happened in that game... let me look and see... ok, eevee did have a scum read on ahoppy in RMM8. so that adds somewhat to the data pool.
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If I expect town yuma to seem towny, then you seeming null is scummy because the times you were town, I'd often have gotten a different impression.
Ok, let me ask the question this way then? What am I not doing in this game that made you think I was town in previous games where I was town? I feel like my play style here is consistent with other games (I mean I know I am town, so I know that I am not faking it...) although I have always tried to try new things so that I don't fall behind in the ever changing dynamic between town and mafia (something you praised me for as scum in Game of Thrones....)
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Quick phone update. At the hospital where my wife just got admitted with double pneumonia which most would say is bad news but is way better than the "we don't know so wait it out" we got from 2 doctors over 10 days. It remains to be seen how this impacts my availability. I mean a lot of my time was spent caring for someone who for all intents was dying.
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PPS, don't worry about mafia at all. Make sure your wife is ok. We'll be fine here.
Hope she gets better
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I'm here, but I can't talk. I have a stack of papers 4 inches high to grade before 7:30 am tomorrow, so I won't get to the Eevee reread tonight.
PPS: No worries, RL > Mafia.
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Well, just not having any striking towny moments is evidence for me. Also how aggressively you go against anyone who suspects you.
Now that you brought up GoT where I was scum, do you think I'm playing similarly here? I think my biggest leak as scum is being way too certain and strong-willed compared to my town self.
I mean, Robz's reasons for reading me correctly here nail it so well it's borderline worrisome.
But really, sadly I think the best input I'll be capable of today will hopefully be avoiding getting lynched. I'm just not nearly sure enough of who is scummy and who is towny to spend much effort building those cases. I do acknowledge my responsibility to town and will try my hardest to convince you I'm town.
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Well, just not having any striking towny moments is evidence for me. Also how aggressively you go against anyone who suspects you.
So in other words... you can't tell me why I am not being townie nor can you tell me why I am being scummy.
Awesome. So your case is basically "I think yuma is scum he is aggressively trying to get me to explain why so I am going to keep he is scum more?"
Cause that is all I am getting out of you. Let me know if you have more to add until then... I guess we are done?
I always respond aggressively to cases on me that are bad (regardless of alignment) so that can't or at least I don't think it should be used as a point against me and I still maintain that I am not attacking anyone, just probing for clarity and answers... but we have had this discussion already this game.
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Now that you brought up GoT where I was scum, do you think I'm playing similarly here? I think my biggest leak as scum is being way too certain and strong-willed compared to my town self.
Strong-willed is not how I would have described you in GoT. At all.
I think you are playing a similar game in that at least until the last little bit you were kinda off my radar and background (aside from TA continuing harping on about you) which is partially why I never really latched onto the idea of you being scum in GoT. I don't remember what you did in Toy Story at all as scum though that was a different game for many reasons.
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This game is still going right?
PS here is the vote count:
Eevee (2): Twistedarcher, yuma
yuma (2): chairs, Eevee
pingpongsam (3): Robz888, faust, scott
faust (1): PPS
Not Voting (3): Jimmmmm, Ahoppy, Arch
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FWIW, I think Yuma would be an excellent cop target
AHoppy would still be better me-thinks.
Vote: Eevee.
Reasons for voting:
- Past reasons
- Twistedarcher's analysis
- Helps shed some light one AHoppy's alignment (Eevee being scum makes it more likely that AHoppy is scum)
- Better lynch than PPS or yuma
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Okay I fell a little bit behind, but I should be caught up now, although I didn't read as carefully as I should have. Eevee is not my favorite lynch, but has become far from my least favorite lynch.
I don't really like the idea of lynching faust, eve though I vehemently disagee with his thinking. Seems like his someone who always want to have "a plan", even a bad one. Remember his fake claim as town Day 1 in Dynasty Warriors 2? There was another thing with, him too.
I'm voting for PPS because I thought he was scummy in his fight with Jimm, NOT because I agee with faust's thinking. I don't know if I still feel that way about PPS. I'm open to a better lynch. That better lynch is NOT faust, and I don't think it's Archetype (for reasons yuma covered).
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Robz, if you don't oppose my lynch, I suspect no one will and it'll happen.
Of course it might still happen if you oppose it, but you know, think extra hard I guess. Seems I'm incapable of defending myself, so a white knight would be nice.
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I am not going to go around telling people who to target, but I think a far, far better way to do this, instead of lynching PPS, is to have him be a potential cop target tonight.
1. if he is targeted we learned he is town and that TA is town 100% at the same time.
2. if he is NKed... yes we lose that cop data (from whoever copped him), but we learn that TA is town 100% of the time and we don't lose a cop from a different night as scum targeted PPS and not another cop.
3. if he is scum, he is outed and we can then decide what to do with TA... He is probably still town, but at least we can think about it.
Now that is a decent idea, but at the moment, we are two Cops down. It's easily possible that we don't get another investigation result. And if we don't, and take TA/pps to some LyLo situation because we think they might still get investigated, what then?
If you are so suspicious of PPS's claim that he is a cop... then why are you so sure that we are two cops down? If you think PPS is scum, then we should only be one cop down.
this post to me is raising a giant red flag! It seems to me that cognitively you believe PPS's claim, but that you want to lynch him anyways (because you want that mislynch w/o responsibility because you are just "doing it for information for TA")
I sitll need to look you over, but you might have just jumped to the top of my suspicions with this post despite TA's town read on you.
And again, I am not saying give TA and PPS a pass. But rather lynch them if you think they are scummy. I don't think they are scummy and won't lynch them just for info.
So yes, this was an unfortunate statement...
That said, some of what you say is making sense, and I think that maybe we can do this without lynching pps. I guess I just have too little trust in my reads and like to have a "safe option", especially when the alternative is potentially mislynching a PR.
So I'm open to vote elsewhere, but - none of the other wagons seems good. I don't think the case on Eevee is anywhere near compelling. yuma has risen in townieness over the past-claim time. And me, well, I'm town.
So I'm open to vote AHoppy or Archetype, or maybe Robz (though I'm less sure about him), but there doesn't seem to be enough support for any of those. So while I don't find pps super scummy, I definitely think he's scummier than the rest of my options.
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So I'm open to vote AHoppy or Archetype, or maybe Robz (though I'm less sure about him), but there doesn't seem to be enough support for any of those. So while I don't find pps super scummy, I definitely think he's scummier than the rest of my options.
If that is the case then I don't really have an issue with your vote. I mean I disagree with the scummy interpretation, but sometimes people read others differently.
I guess my issue is that it never really appeared that you had a scumread on PPS until after he claimed. So now it kinda looks like you went from null/town read on him before to let's lynch him for info once he claimed and are now suggesting you have a scum read (even if it isn't super) once people started to say that you should only be voting for him if you have a scum read....
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So I'm open to vote AHoppy or Archetype, or maybe Robz (though I'm less sure about him), but there doesn't seem to be enough support for any of those. So while I don't find pps super scummy, I definitely think he's scummier than the rest of my options.
If that is the case then I don't really have an issue with your vote. I mean I disagree with the scummy interpretation, but sometimes people read others differently.
I guess my issue is that it never really appeared that you had a scumread on PPS until after he claimed. So now it kinda looks like you went from null/town read on him before to let's lynch him for info once he claimed and are now suggesting you have a scum read (even if it isn't super) once people started to say that you should only be voting for him if you have a scum read....
I understand, and what I initially did was probably an overreaction. I had a null/slight town read on him before the claim. Then, I just thought lynching him might be good because we get info, that might not have been completely thought through. But ultimately, I arrive at a slightly scummier read on pps: the claim itself is scummy, and I think people should realize that. It is, after all, a claim at L-2. These should always be taken with a grain of salt. I don't like how everyone goes "oh, so TA is a quasi-IC, and pps probably town".
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the claim itself is scummy, and I think people should realize that. It is, after all, a claim at L-2. These should always be taken with a grain of salt. I don't like how everyone goes "oh, so TA is a quasi-IC, and pps probably town".
I agree that the claim makes him scummier, but for me it takes it from a strong town read to a medium town read. But I don't necessarily find the timing of the claim to be scummy, but rather that just in and of itself a cop claim is either going to come from a cop or scum (it won't come from a doc). So anyone who makes a claim thereby automatically becomes a little more likely to be scum (basically what in my head was a 1/3 chance becomes a 1/2... those aren't exact odds, just showing the line of thought).
and I am not saying TA is quasi-IC therefor PPS is probably town. Rather I am saying I think PPS is town, regardless of his claim, therefore I think TA is quasi-IC and we shouldn't lynch PPS just to prove it.
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Whether it is believed or not; I didn't really even know where my wagon stood when I claimed. I claimed at the behest of faust because he had indicated that at that point in the game there must not have been any results or else we would have seen them already. That my results were on TA and TA was floundering was additional motivation.
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I was floundering? THat's news to me
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How was I floundering, PPS? I had 1 vote on me (Yuma's). What about my play made you feel that you needed to step in and defend me?
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I don't think PPS and Eevee can both be scum, it doesn't make sense for PPS to fakeclaim to give credence to a case on his partner. Not particularly relevant, but worth noting for sure.
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Realized I never did my Ahoppy reread:
- pretty early on has the huge reads list. I still tend to find those sort of posts scummy... (even though I think they are generally good). His isn't the scummiest I have seen. He takes some stances, but mostly I feel it was too early to try and forumulate those sort of opinions... but maybe that is just more of a stylistic preference.
- easy vote on Robz when he isn't posting, removes it when he does
- moves to the easy chairs vote for basically the same reason
- in the same post he defends Eevee, finds TA scummy for it and then says he doesn't want to lynch TA due to the top posting thing... but instead votes a basically null read in chairs.
- reacts well to what is really just an OMGUS vote from chairs.
- he explains some of his dislike of TA's reads as being that he isn't as familiar with people's metas and so doesn't trust them as much... this part resonates with me a bit, but I don't think it explains why he thought TA might be setting up an "easy mislynch" with it
- missed out on the end of day until the very end; then he had two posts that made me suspicious and then didn't in succession. The first made it look like he needed to find excuses and reasons for voting Teproc, but really if he was town he should know that he was a better lynch than himself (because there was a chance he was mafia at the least) but the second didn't give that vibe as he didn't give reasons, he just basically said "Teproc is better than me" so that isn't town credit, it just negates the first....
Day2:
- has another large post of reads (this time in response to PPS)
- ends up voting for PPS. I dont' really like this vote that much (not just because of my townread on him), but rather how he got there... basically he is suspicious of PPS because PPS de-escalated the argument and said "fine, I'll wait for your case" which at that point was all PPS could do as Jimmmm obviously wasn't in a hurry to get it out there. This looks like another "easy" vote to me
- ends up unvoting PPS before the claim he says.
Summary: So ultimately I am not a huge fan of the Ahoppy lynch. He has been a little bit on the "easy" side of voting, but I haven't seen a lot of scummy behavior from him. He isn't a "lurker" in the conventional sense and has lots of content. I don't buy into the "we need to lynch Ahoppy" for information from day1 because by the time we get into a place where we could use it the more important info is going to be from day2 which won't be as useful if we lynch day2 for information... man that was a confusing sentence... basically what is the point? Lynch to hit scum, not to get info. Info is always going to come with a lynch regardless of who we lynch, so let's try to hit scum and get the info as a side benefit. I don't think Ahoppy is more likely to flip scum at this point than a number of other players.
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I interpreted the repeated cries for an Eevee lynch as floundering since you were becoming visibly frustrated with the lack of response. Maybe it was a poor choice of words. I meant it in the sense of you were making motion to no real effect. While I never saw much to your case on Eevee I felt it deserved some attention because I knew you to be Town and thus revealing the results at least gave it the attention a known Townie deserves.
I didn't mean foundering as in you were in any risk of being lynched or under suspicion.
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Why would you want to lend more credence to a case you didn't agree with?
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The intent wasn't to give credence to the case but to the person bringing the case.
I think the case itself deserved more attention. Just because I don't see it doesn't mean it isn't there. Also, I am rather distracted with IRL circumstances so it is very possible I can't see it when it is there. I already had the result and I then I had faust indicating that the result was due to be revealed. That TA happened to be striving hard on something that was being largely ignored was entirely secondary to delivering the claim but I stated as such in full disclosure of my motives.
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So deadline is in like 28 hours...
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Prod request for: Jimmmm and chairs
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vote count please
Also sudgy I sent you a pm I need answered...don't know if you saw it
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Prod request for: Jimmmm and chairs
Sorry. Literally catching up as we speak.
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Prod request for: Jimmmm and chairs
Sorry. Literally catching up as we speak.
That's cool. I was more afraid that the two of you might not have been aware of the impending deadline.. I was a bit surprised that it was so soon. I was thinking it was sunday for some reason...
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Okay so...
Would lynch: pps, Eevee, yuma
Would vote for to get a lynch through: Arch, chairs, faust, scott
Do not want to lynch Today: TA, Robz, AHoppy
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Wow, just noticed that my three "would lynch"s are the three people with more than one vote. Not sure what that means. I guess any one of them being scum would make another being scum seem less likely.
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Wow, just noticed that my three "would lynch"s are the three people with more than one vote. Not sure what that means. I guess any one of them being scum would make another being scum seem less likely.
are your three in that particular order, if not what is your preference...? I am a bit surprised to see my name in there. I guess you had expressed some suspicion early in the day but I don't think I have seen you really mention me before...
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Wow, just noticed that my three "would lynch"s are the three people with more than one vote. Not sure what that means. I guess any one of them being scum would make another being scum seem less likely.
are your three in that particular order, if not what is your preference...? I am a bit surprised to see my name in there. I guess you had expressed some suspicion early in the day but I don't think I have seen you really mention me before...
Yep, probably that order. To be perfectly honest, I don't think I'm up to effort that I think it would take to try to lynch you.
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Yuma is doing more to drive this game forward than anyone else, + I am leaning town on him, I absolutely do not want to lynch there.
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im here to move my vote and stuff, but I don't have anything on anyone I haven't already shared.
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I'm here now as well. The only people I don't really want to lynch are myself and TA.
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i have a feeling it'll be me and tomorrow scum and town alike will say it was my fault and nothing will be learned.
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This definitely isn't one of those Day 2s where "It all came together."
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Here, but still stand by my Eevee vote and nothing really new to add either. Agree with town points to Yuma for keeping discussion moving.
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Here, but still stand by my Eevee vote and nothing really new to add either. Agree with town points to Yuma for keeping discussion moving.
Well, who do you think we should vote for?
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This definitely isn't one of those Day 2s where "It all came together."
No, it really wasn't.
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This definitely isn't one of those Day 2s where "It all came together."
No, it really wasn't.
I feel like, IF Yuma is town, I have a kind of good idea as to who scum is, or at least the general area in which scum is lying.
If Yuma is scum, I have no clue.
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Prod request for: Jimmmm and chairs
Prod sent to chairs.
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This definitely isn't one of those Day 2s where "It all came together."
No, it really wasn't.
I feel like, IF Yuma is town, I have a kind of good idea as to who scum is, or at least the general area in which scum is lying.
If Yuma is scum, I have no clue.
Okay, who?
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This definitely isn't one of those Day 2s where "It all came together."
No, it really wasn't.
I feel like, IF Yuma is town, I have a kind of good idea as to who scum is, or at least the general area in which scum is lying.
If Yuma is scum, I have no clue.
Well, I don't share your read on yuma and you have me pegged all wrong..
It's actually weird our reads are so different.. this time I'm quite open to my reads just being bad, though.
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Vote Count 2.4
Eevee (3): Twistedarcher, yuma, Archetype
yuma (2): chairs, Eevee
faust (1): pingpongsam
pingpongsam (3): Robz888, faust, scott_pilgrim
Not Voting (2): Jimmmmm, AHoppy
With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.
Day 2 ends February 7th, 12:00 AM.
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This definitely isn't one of those Day 2s where "It all came together."
No, it really wasn't.
I feel like, IF Yuma is town, I have a kind of good idea as to who scum is, or at least the general area in which scum is lying.
If Yuma is scum, I have no clue.
Okay, who?
Multiple scum in Eevee/Ahoppy/Archetype/Scott , I think
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Well that would essentially indict all the least active people. It's possible, I don't see why it's the most possible thing, or why it has much to do with Yuma's alignment, though.
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Here, but still stand by my Eevee vote and nothing really new to add either. Agree with town points to Yuma for keeping discussion moving.
Well, who do you think we should vote for?
Eevee, of course.
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well, yuma is probably too ambitious for today, so I'll vote: archetype he is at the top of the long list of guys i'd vote for self-preservation.
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well, yuma is probably too ambitious for today, so I'll vote: archetype he is at the top of the long list of guys i'd vote for self-preservation.
I don't see pps happening, maybe this goes through. Vote: Archetype
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My off the cuff reads:
Town, won't lynch - pps, TA
strong Town read won't lynch - yuma
slight Town would be hard pressed to lynch - Jimmmmm
null would sheep lynch - Robz, scott, chairs, Eeveee, Archetype
slight to moderate scum would lynch - faust, AHoppy
My initial lean is to sheep my 2 strongest Town reads and vote Eevee.
Considering that faust and Eevee lead the charge on Archetype makes me uneasy about it but I am not opposed to his lynch. I think the Eevee/Arch mutual votes look like they could be scum distancing. If that were the case it would give faust a much higher probability of being town and thus I am willing to Vote: Archetype to see how these 2 behave if it builds.
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Not sure what to think of these arch votes.
As I said before, for me to vote archetype it is going to take someone to look at the info that I laid out and explain to me why his behavior is more likely to be scummy than townie. Because arch has been lynched soooo many times as town for doing something "scummy." So I admit there is some scummy stuff there I am just not sure it is indicative of him being scum (looks like a potential easy mislynch for me)
Still prefer Eevee who I can at least sometimes get a decent read on...
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Should have time for a proper re-read before deadline, but for now Vote: Eevee.
That's L-2.
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I've been following along. I suppose I could really vote for either Archetype or Eevee.
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Aaand reviewing the last couple pages, intent to vote archetype. I don't want to derphammer so I'm holding off on vote until I check count.
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vote: Archetype THIS IS L-2.
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I'm around until the deadline but again, no real defenses I haven't given already. I think scum is sitting extremely pretty now, could very well see archetype being town as well.
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I'm here now. Well, I don't love either of these lynches, but I really have no idea what lynch I do like.
I've never read Archetype correctly. I can't even really recall what stood out to me about his scum play in Bankers.
On the other hand, Eevee... well I read him as extremely townie here on Day 1. I can see his actions being scum, I guess.
Blah. I guess I lean more toward voting Archetype. I think I'm more confident that Eevee is town, whereas I'm just pretty null on Archetype.
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I'm around until the deadline but again, no real defenses I haven't given already. I think scum is sitting extremely pretty now, could very well see archetype being town as well.
(Emphasis mine)
This has been a scumslip in the past for others. Do we think it's a scumslip here?
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How is it a scumslip? It wasn't a slip, I still think that!
Robz, I'd totally be open to trying different wagons if anyone has ideas, although I by no means think Archetype is a bad choice. What about chairs?
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I'm around until the deadline but again, no real defenses I haven't given already. I think scum is sitting extremely pretty now, could very well see archetype being town as well.
(Emphasis mine)
This has been a scumslip in the past for others. Do we think it's a scumslip here?
I don't see it...?
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How is it a scumslip? It wasn't a slip, I still think that!
Robz, I'd totally be open to trying different wagons if anyone has ideas, although I by no means think Archetype is a bad choice. What about chairs?
Well, yeah, chairs. I think chairs is probably a little less based in anything tangible than Archetype, though. He's mega lurking, but that's par for he course for chairs. I've seen this from him in a couple games now.
At least Archetype has said a couple things that were at least fairly scummy statements.
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I've never read Archetype correctly. I can't even really recall what stood out to me about his scum play in Bankers.
he subbed in for someone? and then was lurky, which was enough for me, but then he got caught out in a lie about something role related that made him obv scum. that was the one time i was right when it was completely obvious... other than then i have been clueless....
so chairs what about the last couple of pages made you vote arch.... has to have been something you can share with the class...
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Aaand reviewing the last couple pages, intent to vote archetype. I don't want to derphammer so I'm holding off on vote until I check count.
This seems like a scum post. As town, just do the checking and don't brag about it for towncred.
I guess I could also vote chairs, though it is a somewhat random shot.
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Aaand reviewing the last couple pages, intent to vote archetype. I don't want to derphammer so I'm holding off on vote until I check count.
This seems like a scum post. As town, just do the checking and don't brag about it for towncred.
I guess I could also vote chairs, though it is a somewhat random shot.
Eh, I think that's a bit of a stretch.
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What's the case on Arch?
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I would point to a handful of eye-rolling, scummy statements he's made. I think sometimes they were pointed out as we went, I didn't bother pointing them out because it's Archetype and he's kind of known for this sort of thing. Which doesn't make it the best case, no.
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Yeah, I've mentioned it before, but I have had a few "that would be scummy if it wasn't Arch" moments.
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guys... i think robz os town (hangs head in shame if he turns out not to be) because this robaz is not trying hard for a lynch.... every post from him lately has been on the lines of "this lynch is meh...." or "i don't have a clue who is scum" etc... and doesn't seem to be all that interested in trying to figure it out... (well not tottally true, but rather he is commenting more on what others say as opposed to going back and digging and finding)
it just seems a lot more like robz as town compared to robz as scum who generally likes to be in control and pushing..
this totally contradicts how i felt earlier so i don't know what to think... but i think i lean townish now.
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Now I'm having some hopes that both Robz and yuma might be town.
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Still want to lynch eevee, but an arch lynch wouldn't be the worst I suppose.
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Also getting a scummier read on pps, his reasons for claiming when he did dont add up...and we will have scum fake claim cop at some point, so mixed there.
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Also getting a scummier read on pps, his reasons for claiming when he did dont add up...and we will have scum fake claim cop at some point, so mixed there.
maybe i missed something... but i felt his reasons added up, he just didn't explain it very well... in looking back at what he has said everything makes sense to me.
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Also getting a scummier read on pps, his reasons for claiming when he did dont add up...and we will have scum fake claim cop at some point, so mixed there.
maybe i missed something... but i felt his reasons added up, he just didn't explain it very well... in looking back at what he has said everything makes sense to me.
Well claiming at fausts prompting made sense. What didn't make sense was him claiming to give credence to a case he didn't agree with... That made sense. It makes me a little worried that scum pps is trying to set up town eevee...
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So around the same time I decided Jimm's case on PPS was not as convincing as I had originally thought, PPS came out with his claim, and that makes him feel scummy to me again, for a few reasons:
1. It was pretty late in the day to announce a result. Of course you don't need to come out with the result immediately, but waiting as long as he did made it look to me like "I need to come up with something before I get lynched". Well, on the one hand, it makes sense that if he's town he would claim when the pressure builds on him, but on the other hand, it doesn't make sense why he wouldn't have claimed before that point. I'm not saying this definitely makes him scum, just that a claim late in the day seems like it would be more characteristic of scum than of town.
2. He stated that his defense of TA was to support TA when his case on Eevee was getting no attention. I don't think this makes any sense at all; there was never a point where people were talking about lynching TA, who would be the one benefiting from the claim. If PPS doesn't agree with the case on Eevee (which, if I recall correctly, he did not find it compelling), then that's just totally not a reason to announce that TA is town, since Eevee is being hurt by the claim. If PPS is actually town, I would think his reason for claiming at that point would have been to make sure the information was available to town were he to be lynched (since there had been several votes on him at that point). If PPS is actually scum, I think his reason for claiming at that point would have been to make himself look townier. In the former case though, I don't see why you would cover up that reason, so the latter seems more likely.
So I'm happy with my PPS vote right now. I will switch if I need to to get a lynch through, but PPS is the only one that I feel like I have a moderately strong scum read on.
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scott is correct that it was late in the day to bring out the claim. I really didn't see the public utility in it because the investigation primarily assuaged my suspicions which apparently no one else shared coming out of D1. I was only marginally aware of where my wagon was and didn't really consider myself to be under that much pressure. It was faust's assumption that there were no results that he was using in his analysis of AHoppy that prompted me to claim. What I saw was a case being made on what I knew to be faulty information because there in fact were results from the night before. faust confirmed that if there were results then it was ripe time for them to come out so I delivered them.
I acknowledged that TA would gain credence from the claim. Stating that my results give TA credence is not the same as saying his case on Eevee must be good. That my claim is consistently being conflated with somehow framing Eevee makes me suspicious.
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oh, scott brings up an excellent point, there is definitely a scum narrative in PPS claiming to dissolve his own wagon and to turn the attention towards me.
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I guess that doesn't do much for people who don't know my alignment, though.
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and I still think TA is almost surely town even in that scenario.
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I've asked this before, but I just realised I don't like your answer.
pps, can you please provide detailed reasons as to why you Copped TA?
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1. It was pretty late in the day to announce a result. Of course you don't need to come out with the result immediately, but waiting as long as he did made it look to me like "I need to come up with something before I get lynched". Well, on the one hand, it makes sense that if he's town he would claim when the pressure builds on him, but on the other hand, it doesn't make sense why he wouldn't have claimed before that point. I'm not saying this definitely makes him scum, just that a claim late in the day seems like it would be more characteristic of scum than of town.
I disagree. I think town results should be claimed earlier, but claiming later has no merit on distinguishing between town and scum.
2. He stated that his defense of TA was to support TA when his case on Eevee was getting no attention. I don't think this makes any sense at all; there was never a point where people were talking about lynching TA, who would be the one benefiting from the claim. If PPS doesn't agree with the case on Eevee (which, if I recall correctly, he did not find it compelling), then that's just totally not a reason to announce that TA is town, since Eevee is being hurt by the claim. If PPS is actually town, I would think his reason for claiming at that point would have been to make sure the information was available to town were he to be lynched (since there had been several votes on him at that point). If PPS is actually scum, I think his reason for claiming at that point would have been to make himself look townier. In the former case though, I don't see why you would cover up that reason, so the latter seems more likely.
So I'm happy with my PPS vote right now. I will switch if I need to to get a lynch through, but PPS is the only one that I feel like I have a moderately strong scum read on.
this is not what pps said and is taking a few sentences out of context... i'll quote stuff when i don't have a babe in my arms
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further more that theory suggesting that pps claimed to move the focus to eevee isn't backed up by what pps has done... he hasn't voted for eevee and he said the case on him was weak and has instead voted for ahoppy and faust.... not eevee
I think what is going on is that people are seeing a supposed "contradiction" in him saying that he wanted to give credence to a case that he didn't agree with... where what pps I think was really trying to do was to give credence to TA who was making the case (regardless of who or what the case was) as few appeared to be taking TA seriously at the time... and then said, that even then he didn't see a lot to the case...
If scum!pps wanted to get eevee mislynched via a claim, he would have said "TA is town, I think his case is good" and would have joined the eevee wagon
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I've never read Archetype correctly. I can't even really recall what stood out to me about his scum play in Bankers.
he subbed in for someone? and then was lurky, which was enough for me, but then he got caught out in a lie about something role related that made him obv scum. that was the one time i was right when it was completely obvious... other than then i have been clueless....
so chairs what about the last couple of pages made you vote arch.... has to have been something you can share with the class...
You've been leaning away from the Arch lynch, and I still feel like you're scum, but it's obvious your lynch is out. You've not been SO against an Archetype lynch as to make me think it's buddying, just the right amount for me to think it's scum trying to gently nudge the needle away from his partner.
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I've never read Archetype correctly. I can't even really recall what stood out to me about his scum play in Bankers.
he subbed in for someone? and then was lurky, which was enough for me, but then he got caught out in a lie about something role related that made him obv scum. that was the one time i was right when it was completely obvious... other than then i have been clueless....
so chairs what about the last couple of pages made you vote arch.... has to have been something you can share with the class...
You've been leaning away from the Arch lynch, and I still feel like you're scum, but it's obvious your lynch is out. You've not been SO against an Archetype lynch as to make me think it's buddying, just the right amount for me to think it's scum trying to gently nudge the needle away from his partner.
so you are voting arch because of things I have done? That makes zero sense... if you think i am scum vote for me! tell me why arch is scummy... not why i am scumm if you are going to vote for him
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^Agreed, and chairs, you did not explain your scumslip accusation. What was it? Vote: chairs until you do.
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Compiling all of PPS statements about his claim for clarity: (some are edited for readability):
Well, I'm going to give credence to TA since he is fervently pushing a case. I was a N1 cop and I investigated TA and he turned up a Town result.
I didn't see much utility in divulging this until he started flailing on this case which I'm not wholly impressed by but I admit he is Town. It's also why I gave him a pass on analyzing the D1 wagons wherein he was off-wagon.
So main points are give credence to TA, not the case, doens't like the case, but shows that TA is town... and something to look back on PPS's analysis of day1 wagons (if it corresponds this means that PPS had to establish early on that he would fake claim a result on TA at that point...) * see below
I thought I fairly well breadcrumbed this investigation yesterday. faust pretty much forced me to directly deny it. I didn't reveal my results when I did because of where my wagon was, that would be ridiculous since an obvious move is to lynch me, not to back off on the wagon. I revealed the information because I tend to agree with faust that the time was ripe for it and because TA was starting to look otherwise desperate with his efforts towards Eevee.
......
All that said, AHoppy seems to enthusiastic to move off my wagon now that my lynch looks like a done deal. Thus, he can avoid any suspicion at all tomorrow. Vote: AHoppy
Breadcrumbed yesterday... worth checking (**see below) up on as well. Again his timing makes sense given right before then faust said something about people should have claimed by that point and that TA wasn't being taken seriously... nothing about the case being good or bad or supporting the case itself. Still doesn't vote eevee, votes ahoppy
Whether it is believed or not; I didn't really even know where my wagon stood when I claimed. I claimed at the behest of faust because he had indicated that at that point in the game there must not have been any results or else we would have seen them already. That my results were on TA and TA was floundering was additional motivation.
very believable given the lack of vote counts in this game. Remember the whole pps is at L-1 thing, panic! that happened a few days before?
I interpreted the repeated cries for an Eevee lynch as floundering since you were becoming visibly frustrated with the lack of response. Maybe it was a poor choice of words. I meant it in the sense of you were making motion to no real effect. While I never saw much to your case on Eevee I felt it deserved some attention because I knew you to be Town and thus revealing the results at least gave it the attention a known Townie deserves.
I didn't mean foundering as in you were in any risk of being lynched or under suspicion.
Consistent with the above.
My off the cuff reads:
Town, won't lynch - pps, TA
strong Town read won't lynch - yuma
slight Town would be hard pressed to lynch - Jimmmmm
null would sheep lynch - Robz, scott, chairs, Eeveee, Archetype
slight to moderate scum would lynch - faust, AHoppy
My initial lean is to sheep my 2 strongest Town reads and vote Eevee.
Considering that faust and Eevee lead the charge on Archetype makes me uneasy about it but I am not opposed to his lynch. I think the Eevee/Arch mutual votes look like they could be scum distancing. If that were the case it would give faust a much higher probability of being town and thus I am willing to Vote: Archetype to see how these 2 behave if it builds.
Eevee in the null would sheep area, but doesn't vote eevee, instead votes arch.
Next quote... consistent with the above as well.
Checking on the things I wanted to check:
* The D1 votes were almost entirely distributed between 2 wagons. The one wagon we know was on Town and also contained a Town vote. So the distribution of scum votes gets quite limited unless scum was voting off wagon which implicates TA but I am giving him a pass right now.
So yes, I am basing my assumption on the fact that AHoppy nearly got lynched but just couldn't. I thought this much was patently obvious.
** Do you think I'm scum, pps?
I don't know. I think you are my favorite target for discovering your alignment because if I could know you were town I would be able to set said my suspicions and discover a better focus. If I thought you were for sure scum I'd be voting you right now.
and
I am not calling scum teams and I am not asserting that if TA were scum he somehow has to have 4 partners. What I am saying is that IF TA is scum then a partner is in the mix because there appears to be enough cooperation and/or sheeping to support the idea. I have so many Town reads because when I read each player outside the TA partner lens they come off as Town which I think is a more logical way to read someone if my suspicion on TA is wrong. I mean, I did just say calling pairs is bad, right? When I put on the TA must be Town lens everyone around him appears even Townier.
My read is that PPS has been consistent in 1. his desire to investigate TA 2. investigated TA and had this in mind throughout day2 and 3. was consistent in his reasons for waiting (even if I think those reasons aren't very applicable as I think town results should be claimed in the first 2-3 days).
Yes, it is possible that PPS was very good and very well planned to have an investigation on TA... (but also keep in mind those sorts of breadcrumbs can be dangerous if they are picked up on by town and the player doesn't end up claiming for various reasons) but combined with my town read on him from before and I truly believe PPS's claim.
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Yeah, I remember how pps' breadcrumbing D1 really tipped me off, and does still. Why do you breadcrumb here? It only gives the scum team hints who to kill - or it provides a consistent narrative for a fakeclaim. pps should explain exactly what he was trying to accomplish with this breadcrumbing.
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Oh cool, I would play mayo clinic. Otherwise just tagging.
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I'm not sure how much of what you're saying is responding to what I said. What I was saying is that, if you're town PPS and you're claiming at the point in time that he did, your reason is that you're worried that the information you have is not going to get out before you die. Especially since I don't think TA was really under any pressure at all, the reason that PPS gave in that regard feels made up. I don't think where PPS stands on TA's case is all that relevant to my argument. I brought it up, saying that if you're town PPS, and you don't like TA's case, it makes even less sense to bring that into the picture of why you're claiming now. Why would you not just say "I'm claiming now because I don't want to die without getting this information out"?
So, that's all assuming that that's what PPS would do if he's town, and of course I don't know, maybe he actually is town and the reasons he has for claiming when he did are actually what he says they are, but I just don't feel like that would be why you claim when you do if you're town PPS. Yeah, timing it after faust brings it up also makes sense, but that's not relevant since I think you would do that regardless of whether you're town or scum.
If you're going to argue against my case, you would be showing me why PPS's reason for claiming wouldn't be "to get the information out before he dies", or you would be showing me why TA would really need support at that time (especially given that he didn't even agree with TA's case).
Your last point is good though (that he is consistent with his D1 statement that he would like to investigate TA), I hadn't realized that so I'll think about it. I still like my PPS vote. Though I also agree with you and Robz that chairs' vote makes no sense at all.
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1. It was pretty late in the day to announce a result. Of course you don't need to come out with the result immediately, but waiting as long as he did made it look to me like "I need to come up with something before I get lynched". Well, on the one hand, it makes sense that if he's town he would claim when the pressure builds on him, but on the other hand, it doesn't make sense why he wouldn't have claimed before that point. I'm not saying this definitely makes him scum, just that a claim late in the day seems like it would be more characteristic of scum than of town.
I disagree. I think town results should be claimed earlier, but claiming later has no merit on distinguishing between town and scum.
Would you like to expand on this? It's probably not relevant now that you brought up his breadcrumbing, but it would make a lot of sense that scum wouldn't want to commit to their claims early in case more cops claim on the same day (especially if they are potentially contradictory, though obviously that's super risky for scum anyway); whereas town doesn't need to worry about it, since they are telling the truth anyway.
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^Agreed, and chairs, you did not explain your scumslip accusation. What was it? Vote: chairs until you do.
Chairs?
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Vote count? Deadline?
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I've asked this before, but I just realised I don't like your answer.
pps, can you please provide detailed reasons as to why you Copped TA?
Interesting that you, of all people, would pose this question.
I strongly perceived you and TA to be working me for a lynch early D1. I copped TA to either confirm my suspicions from D1 or to dispel them so I could start looking elsewhere with earnest. I actually had a toss-up last night between investigating TA or Jimmmmm. Both were off wagon but Jimmmmm was on AHoppy while TA was glued to Eevee even then. I interpreted his version of being off-wagon as being the scummier of the two. In fact, his continued insistence towards Eevee looks like the classic D1 off-wagon tee up for the D2 "I tried to tell you guys" mislynch so I am quite grateful I picked him and is I suppose why I even mentioned his Eevee case when I claimed my results.. While I did initially react to your voting me earlier this day I have tended to give you the benefit of the doubt because outside of the TA interactions towards me D1 I am not smelling scum on you and copping TA relieved my suspicions on you otherwise which I had to keep reminding myself of when you continued to press me hard during this day.
In short, I think my choice of target did for me exactly what I needed in order to have a decent focus going into D2.
I'll end with a question of my own, if you were a N1 cop this game who would you have targeted last night?
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I'll end with a question of my own, if you were a N1 cop this game who would you have targeted last night?
I'm not sure Jimm should answer that, really.
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I'll end with a question of my own, if you were a N1 cop this game who would you have targeted last night?
I'm not sure Jimm should answer that, really.
I agree, but I can see where PPS is coming from by asking it... but don't think it will serve a conductive purpose in answering it.
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I'll end with a question of my own, if you were a N1 cop this game who would you have targeted last night?
I'm not sure Jimm should answer that, really.
I agree, but I can see where PPS is coming from by asking it... but don't think it will serve a conductive purpose in answering it.
Yeah, it would be different if there was a possibility we would be lynching Jimm today, but I don't think we are.
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Yeah, I remember how pps' breadcrumbing D1 really tipped me off, and does still. Why do you breadcrumb here? It only gives the scum team hints who to kill - or it provides a consistent narrative for a fakeclaim. pps should explain exactly what he was trying to accomplish with this breadcrumbing.
In actuality the intent wasn't to breadcrumb, I was being sincere. When faust highlighted how careless I was being I played the "there's no way I'm that dumb" card and I'm not sure I had a better play at that point. In retrospect it proved useful because I did survive and get a result and I was able to point back to that as a breadcrumb but I didn't intend to be quite so bold. The actual intent was to appear to be directing a cop's power to hopefully indicate to scum that I was not the cop they were looking for. Having the suspicion I caught D1 was anxiety inducing because 1) if I got lynched we would definitely lose my PR and 2) if I had to claim to keep from being lynched D1 then I could only pray a doctor existed and the doctor believed me enough to protect me otherwise why would scum not snipe me? I think I played somewhat poorly for my role in that respect but I also felt responsible for eliciting enough behavior to have a worthy target for the night because I ideally i would have copped scum.
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Yeah, I remember how pps' breadcrumbing D1 really tipped me off, and does still. Why do you breadcrumb here? It only gives the scum team hints who to kill - or it provides a consistent narrative for a fakeclaim. pps should explain exactly what he was trying to accomplish with this breadcrumbing.
I don't think pps ever intended for it to be a surefire "breadcrumb" like I don't think he was saying "I am going to certainly investigate TA during the night" with his statements. But rather that he wanted to know what alignment TA was, expressed that in the course of day1 scum hunting and then continued along those lines later that night. So it isn't a true breadcrumb... rather it is a consistent trend that either is PPS progressing along natural lines or a very elaborate setup by scum. Given my town read on PPS regardless of all of this I think it is the former.
PPE: PPS Said the same thing
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well not exactly the same thing, but good enough for me and obviously PPS's explanation is better as it is coming from him as I am just speculating...
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Ah, good point, guys, that does come off as fishing, shit.
Let me put words in his mouth then because I damn near did in the original post but i hate how he does that to me so I refrained.
I'm willing to bet my name was at or near the top of his target wish list. My point being we were at odds and that my choice of target is consistent with being towards those who were actively pursuing a known Townie, namely myself.
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If you're going to argue against my case, you would be showing me why PPS's reason for claiming wouldn't be "to get the information out before he dies", or you would be showing me why TA would really need support at that time (especially given that he didn't even agree with TA's case).
Your last point is good though (that he is consistent with his D1 statement that he would like to investigate TA), I hadn't realized that so I'll think about it. I still like my PPS vote. Though I also agree with you and Robz that chairs' vote makes no sense at all.
Because claiming obviously gets the information out before he dies... that is a given. It isn't like he could claim and not have the information out.... So I am not sure what to say there....
and I think I have already talked about why PPS claimed in regard to TA--or showed what PPS said--that it was in conjunction and wans't a specific reason.
That is the rub.... You guys want PPS to have a specific reason, but it looks like it was a conglomeration of different things (probably combined with RL stuff) that prompted him to claim when he did. 1. faust saying stuff 2. PPS seeing TA being dismissed 3. getting close to the end of day.
I just don't see what the problem is here.... I think if you are going to convince me your votes for PPS are legitimate you need to show me how his play during day1 and day2 was scummy. Really only Jimmmm has attempted to do that, and I disagree with that case
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Vote Count 2.5
Eevee (4): Twistedarcher, yuma, Archetype, Jimmmmm {L-2}
pingpongsam (1): scott_pilgrim
chairs (1): Robz888
Archetype (4): Eevee, faust, pingpongsam, chairs {L-2}
Not Voting (1): AHoppy
With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.
Day 2 ends February 7th, 12:00 AM. In about seven hours.
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Well, guess I have to pick a horse, huh? Still miffed that chairs didn't answer my question.
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Well, guess I have to pick a horse, huh? Still miffed that chairs didn't answer my question.
he will when he gets back.... maybe,.... i still feel like i have some hanging questions for him. he doesn't stick around when he posts ( not a criticism, just a commentary...) so asking him a follow up question often means he doesn't see it until the next time he gets on
My town read on PPS makes me feel more confident that scum is one of the L-2 wagons as there is more discussion right now about PPS then there is about ther wagons.... like scum is trying to deflect away (except that eevee and arcg aren't the ones deflecting the conversation.... it is others who are)
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If you're going to argue against my case, you would be showing me why PPS's reason for claiming wouldn't be "to get the information out before he dies", or you would be showing me why TA would really need support at that time (especially given that he didn't even agree with TA's case).
Your last point is good though (that he is consistent with his D1 statement that he would like to investigate TA), I hadn't realized that so I'll think about it. I still like my PPS vote. Though I also agree with you and Robz that chairs' vote makes no sense at all.
Because claiming obviously gets the information out before he dies... that is a given. It isn't like he could claim and not have the information out.... So I am not sure what to say there....
and I think I have already talked about why PPS claimed in regard to TA--or showed what PPS said--that it was in conjunction and wans't a specific reason.
That is the rub.... You guys want PPS to have a specific reason, but it looks like it was a conglomeration of different things (probably combined with RL stuff) that prompted him to claim when he did. 1. faust saying stuff 2. PPS seeing TA being dismissed 3. getting close to the end of day.
I just don't see what the problem is here.... I think if you are going to convince me your votes for PPS are legitimate you need to show me how his play during day1 and day2 was scummy. Really only Jimmmm has attempted to do that, and I disagree with that case
I guess what it comes down to is I thought PPS was saying his main reason for claiming when he did was that TA was having trouble, and to me it didn't seem like TA was having trouble at all. And I'm saying his main reason should be "shoot I'm at L-2 now and I'm potentially about to die and I need to make sure this gets out", but he didn't even mention that. And I'm not saying the other stuff can't also be contributing factors, or that he has to have only one reason, I'm just saying that that would be like, the overwhelming reason for me to claim at that time if I were in his position.
Yes, claiming always gets information out before you die, but by "before you die" I mean when you're potentially really close to dying. If I had something to claim right now (I don't) and if it was earlier in the day, I could afford to wait a bit before claiming because I don't have any votes on me and I don't have that pressure. If like four people suddenly voted for me, I would probably claim right away to make sure I got it out before I died.
Maybe it just goes without saying that that was his main reason for doing what he did and maybe I was supposed to assume that, I'm still new to this and maybe that's just the kind of thing everyone knows. I just thought it looked strange that he would mention the other much less significant things without bringing that up.
I guess I'm done talking about PPS for now though since it looks like that isn't going to happen. I have class in 30 minutes but I'll be back on later tonight.
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PPS is heavily detracting from conversation.
People voting for Eevee are currently some of my higher townreads, which is comforting.
Chairs using Yuma as a reason to vote for me is so weak. Makes me think that Eevee is his partner and needs to figure out a reason to vote for me over him.
Seems like Robz and Scotty are going to be the ones to decide the lynch. Which way are you guys leaning?
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Are there any questions anyone has on me?
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for me, rather
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Are there any questions anyone has for me?
Same, i suppose. Seems like the case is just general scumminess.
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Are there any questions anyone has for me?
Same, i suppose. Seems like the case is just general scumminess.
have you given a from towniest to scummiest - list?
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I don't have a strong preference between the two of you. I don't even have a strong preference other than the two of you, I'm afraid.
Well I'm not going to flip a coin. You are both voting for each other, as you should, but are you each other's preferred lynches?
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I guess, just keep talking, will be the most beneficial thing.
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I don't have a strong preference between the two of you. I don't even have a strong preference other than the two of you, I'm afraid.
Well I'm not going to flip a coin. You are both voting for each other, as you should, but are you each other's preferred lynches?
Yes. If you look back at my voting/reads history you'll see I've been a big fan of an Eevee lynch.
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I don't have a strong preference between the two of you. I don't even have a strong preference other than the two of you, I'm afraid.
Well I'm not going to flip a coin. You are both voting for each other, as you should, but are you each other's preferred lynches?
Yes. If you look back at my voting/reads history you'll see I've been a big fan of an Eevee lynch.
Oh, that's great. Why?
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I don't have a strong preference between the two of you. I don't even have a strong preference other than the two of you, I'm afraid.
Well I'm not going to flip a coin. You are both voting for each other, as you should, but are you each other's preferred lynches?
Yes. If you look back at my voting/reads history you'll see I've been a big fan of an Eevee lynch.
Oh, that's great. Why?
That was one of the scummy things that were stacked up by me about arch (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9946.msg341204#msg341204)... I felt he never really said why he was scummy on eevee.
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Well it started off with a vote from him lurking, went to reread, and just got a scummy vibe from his posts. Over time he started being less scummy (and to be honest I became distant from the game and forgot how scummy he had acted before hand). Then TA posted his case on Eevee, which reminded me of how I felt before and I fell in love with the lynch once again.
So even if it wasn't a him or me situation, I'd still be a fan of the Eevee lynch.
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Well it started off with a vote from him lurking, went to reread, and just got a scummy vibe from his posts. Over time he started being less scummy (and to be honest I became distant from the game and forgot how scummy he had acted before hand). Then TA posted his case on Eevee, which reminded me of how I felt before and I fell in love with the lynch once again.
So even if it wasn't a him or me situation, I'd still be a fan of the Eevee lynch.
I guess I mostly believe you. Not that you're right, but that you actually think that. Which would mean that you're town and I should vote for Eevee.
This post just seems to be very, very characteristic of town you--not persuasive, not meticulous, good natured.
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So... Vote: Eevee on that basis.
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so that is L-1.... with 4 hours to go.
Why is no one here....?
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like is this mafia happy with the lynch or mafia not being here or very non-chalant about a partner going down...
unvote for a bit at least...
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I am here, still happy with eevee.
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I am here, still happy with eevee.
I think I am too, but this is kind of the slow role up to a lynch that makes me uncomfortable...
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I am here, still happy with eevee.
I think I am too, but this is kind of the slow role up to a lynch that makes me uncomfortable...
This is shaping up eerily similar to D1 with two equally weighted wagons. I have no good way to deduce what it means.
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Well I will be on/off until deadline, but will move my vote back I think vote: eevee. I guess TA if you want to unvote, you can if you feel you want the conversation to be extended at all so you can be the hammer if need be (assuming you will be around for the deadline?)
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I went back and re-read some stuff on Eevee and Archetype, and I'm still not sure what to think of them, but if I had to pick one (which I do) I think I prefer Eevee. Yuma just voted so I don't want to hammer yet, does anyone have anything else to say?
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I went back and re-read some stuff on Eevee and Archetype, and I'm still not sure what to think of them, but if I had to pick one (which I do) I think I prefer Eevee. Yuma just voted so I don't want to hammer yet, does anyone have anything else to say?
Could you briefly say why you prefer Eevee?
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I an getting worries about eevee...it seems what made people change from being not ok to ok lynching eevee isthat I'm a semi IC now...and no new case was made other than Yuma articulating his feelings well...
Ugh I just don't know. I am being super indecisive this game.
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I an getting worries about eevee...it seems what made people change from being not ok to ok lynching eevee isthat I'm a semi IC now...and no new case was made other than Yuma articulating his feelings well...
Ugh I just don't know. I am being super indecisive this game.
I feel you there... I vastly prefer eevee to arch and I do feel good about the points I raised about him, but these ends of days are just super weird to me and the lackadaisical way the wagon formed is super weird too...
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I went back and re-read some stuff on Eevee and Archetype, and I'm still not sure what to think of them, but if I had to pick one (which I do) I think I prefer Eevee. Yuma just voted so I don't want to hammer yet, does anyone have anything else to say?
Could you briefly say why you prefer Eevee?
Well it's hard for me to pick, because it seems like most of the things people have said about both of them are in reference to other games with them, which I haven't played in, so I have to trust that those references are fair. So to some extent, it's just that since TA is super likely to be town, I feel like I can more easily trust his case. Archetype has done a number of odd things this game, which seem suspicious, but my understanding is that this is normal for him as town. According to TA, Eevee normally just gives gut reads as town but tries to pick out specific things to argue against as scum, and he has been doing the latter in this game. Also, the others voting for Archetype (PPS, chairs, and faust) are all people that I've been suspicious of (PPS I've talked about in my previous posts; chairs because he dropped his vote with very poor justification and also never explained the scumslip thing; and faust, I guess I just don't like how he's been playing, maybe I'm being unfair to him though), so I wouldn't feel comfortable joining them, at least in the absence of a compelling reason to vote for Archetype.
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Also paranoid of Yuma, if he's scum, being able to get his preferred lynch two days in a row because there's not much activity
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Also paranoid of Yuma, if he's scum, being able to get his preferred lynch two days in a row because there's not much activity
and I am paranoid scum is allowing and helping me get my preferred lynch (if eevee is a mislynch) and will try and get me lynched for it tomorrow.
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Yeah, that too. Meh.
Scott, if I were to switch to arch, would you follow?
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Yeah, that too. Meh.
Scott, if I were to switch to arch, would you follow?
Probably not, but I'd think about it.
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Like I am just flabbergasted that no one (aside from TA and scott and me) is here.... does everyone just assume that someone else will make sure the lynch goes through?
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I'll try to check back around 11:30, if no one else says anything by then I'll hammer.
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Shoot I totally forgot to like be here for deadline. I'm at gf house and didn't being comp.
Do I need to move to get a lynch? I can't really read
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Being = bring
On phone sorry
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Yeah oh well. I feel like this game is really off and there's no sense of urgency.. Maybe it's cause of the super long deadlines? D1 was like this too.
Go ahead and hammer, Scott.
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Nope you are already on eevee. Either Scott hammers eevee or Yuma / I switch to arch -- I think we have the votes needed
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Okay thanks TA. I do council Eevee lynch over arch.
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Who is here?
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I'm here, but you guys already know where my vote lies.
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Who is here?
Heyo!
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All right, vote: Eevee then.
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Cool cool cool. Hope I was right. Sorry if I wasn't, eevee!
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All right, vote: Eevee then.
Hooray... well everyone that has been here for the last 1 hour gets a +1 on my townie read. Everyone that wasn't gets a -1... Let's try to be a bit more active leading up to the next deadline eh guys?
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All right, vote: Eevee then.
Sweet! I live until N2!
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If someone else wants to vote eevee just to make sure that would be great.
Yuma and pps would both be good cop targets tonight.
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THREAD LOCKED
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Final Day 2 Vote Count
Eevee (6): Twistedarcher, yuma, Archetype, Jimmmmm, Robz888, scott_pilgrim
Archetype (4): Eevee, faust, pingpongsam, chairs
Not Voting (1): AHoppy
With 11 alive, it took 6 to lynch.
Eevee has been lynched. He was a Town Cop.
NIGHT 2 START
Please get your night actions in within 48 hours.
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Yuma was killed last night. He was a Town Cop.
Day 3 start
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Well that sucks.
3 Cops down means we have 1 Cop and 5 Docs left, or 2/4 or 3/3, plus 3 scum. So mislynching Today means Tomorrow will be lylo.
We may want to think about whether a full Cop/Doc claim is in order Today. We need to lynch scum.
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Well that sucks.
3 Cops down means we have 1 Cop and 5 Docs left, or 2/4 or 3/3, plus 3 scum. So mislynching Today means Tomorrow will be lylo.
We may want to think about whether a full Cop/Doc claim is in order Today. We need to lynch scum.
Yes, I think that we need to claim Doc or Cop. TA should determine the order in which we claim. Of course nobody should claim their night.
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Updated data post:
D1 voting patterns:
Jimmmmm: Eevee(1,RVS), Archetype(1), Eevee(4), AHoppy(5), Teproc(7)
faust: yuma(1), pps(1), No Lynch(1), pps(2), No Lynch(3), Teproc(1), chairs(2), Teproc(2)
pingpongsam: Robz(1,RVS), AHoppy(3), Robz(3), AHoppy(5)
Voltaire: scott(1,RVS), chairs(1), pps(3), AHoppy(1), Archetype(1), AHoppy(4), Robz(2), Teproc(4)
yuma: faust(1), No Lynch(2), Robz(3), Eevee(3), AHoppy(6), Robz(1), Teproc(2), Teproc(6)
Archetype: nkirbit/Teproc(1,RVS), chairs(1), Eevee(2), Robz(4), Eevee(3), Teproc(6)
Eevee: TA(1), Teproc(3)
Twistedarcher: pps(2), yuma(1), Eevee(1)
Teproc: yuma(2), chairs(2), Jimmmmm(1), AHoppy(4)
scott_pilgrim: No Lynch(2), TA(3), AHoppy(5), Teproc(5)
AHoppy: Robz(2), chairs(2), Teproc(5)
chairs: TA(2), AHoppy(2), yuma(1), AHoppy(4)
Robz: chairs(1), Teproc(1), AHoppy(5)
AHoppy wagon at peak (1): chairs, scott, Teproc, yuma, Voltaire, pps (Robz intent)
Robz wagon at peak: yuma, Archetype, Voltaire, pps
AHoppy wagon at peak (2): Robz, chairs, scott, Teproc, pps
Teproc wagon at peak: faust, Eevee, Voltaire, scott_pilgrim, Archetype, AHoppy, yuma
Eevee wagon at peak: Twistedarcher, Archetype, yuma, Jimmmmm
D2 voting patterns:
Twistedarcher: Eevee(1)
Jimmmmm: Eevee(2), pps(1), Eevee(4)
Robz: yuma(1), pps(4), chairs(1), Eevee(5)
yuma: Robz(1), TA(1), Eevee(2)
Archetype: Eevee(3), scotty(1), pps(3), Eevee(3)
faust: Robz(2), AHoppy(1), pps(5), Archetype(2)
pingpongsam: Jimmmmm(1), AHoppy(1), faust(1), Archetype(3)
chairs: yuma(2), Archetype(4)
Eevee: Archetype(1), yuma(1), Archetype(1)
AHoppy: pps(2)
scott_pilgrim: Jimmmmm(2), pps(4), Eevee(6)
pps wagon at peak: Jimmmmm, AHoppy, Archetype, Robz, faust
Archetype wagon at peak: Eevee, faust, pps, chairs
Eevee wagon at peak: TA, yuma, Archetype, Jimmmmm, Robz, scott
# of times voted for confirmed town/# of total votes:
Twistedarcher: 3/4=75%
Jimmmmm: 4/7=57%
Robz: 3/7=43%
Archetype: 5/9=56%
faust: 3/10=30%
pps: 0/7=0%
chairs: 2/6=33%
AHoppy: 1/4=25%
scott: 2/6=33%
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Interesting things:
- pps seems to have crazily good reads
- the AHoppy wagon seems very town-driven, as does the Robz wagon
- suspect scum on both Eevee wagons
- I don't like Archetype's voting pattern at all
- TA has voted for town often, but always as the first vote
- no confirmed town on pps may well mean a scum-driven wagon
This makes me lean town on pps (and thus TA), and lean scum on AHoppy and Archetype.
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Interesting things:
- pps seems to have crazily good reads
Possibly more interesting; I voted for you.
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Interesting things:
- no confirmed town on pps may well mean a scum-driven wagon
Possibly more interesting; you were on both wagons.
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pps, if you want to say that I am scum, give me more than that. There are some other players that also match your criteria, why pick me?
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Well, I'm not so sure you are scum. Even your move to lynch my claim yesterday seems more Town than scum because scum should prefer the ambiguity. I'm really just responding to you not "picking you". I think it is important when putting out an analysis such as yours to consider where you yourself stand in it.
It should be noted that every vote on me yesterday was from someone I have voted though not necessarily in return for the vote on me. faust is the only living player who voted me both days who is not TA who I know to be Town.
Analyzing the pps wagons, I'll buy the scum reads on AHoppy and Archetype and a Town read on Jimmmmm but why the Town read on Robz?
When looking at where Robz ended up yesterday I also have to say I'm rather null on scotty.
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Actually when I look at where scotty votes and especially where he ends up each day I begin to lean scum!scotty.
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Well I was thinking Yuma was scum going into today. Weird. Need to reevaluate the end of days now..
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I am so unbelievably confused why Eevee wasn't scum. I also think a massclaim would be helpful at this point.
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Uhh.... I'm not sure we should massclaim today. Well we should discuss it, yes, but you know we can still mislynch today. Massclaiming now gives scum better odds to hurt us by killing off potentially useful cops. And I think our chances really suffer if that happens. We kind of need our cops to come through at this point. I think.
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Vote Count 3.1
Not Voting (9): Jimmmmm, AHoppy, Robz888, Twistedarcher, Archetype, chairs, faust, scott_pilgrim, pingpongsam
With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.
Day 3 ends 12:00 AM February 21st.
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Bump.
Yep, need to get this Day going.
I'll start:
I am so unbelievably confused why Eevee wasn't scum.
Seems like an overreaction. I've never been "unbelievably confused" at someone's flip, and don't think I would be unless it seemed to conflict with investigation results.
Vote: Archetype
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Fine then, let's get the Day going.
Vote: Archetype
Still think we should mass claim. TA needs to weigh in on this.
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What does a massclaim accomplish other than outing our remaining cops to scum, exactly?
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Faust, what crazily good reads of pps are you talking about, and why does that make you think he's town?
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What does a massclaim accomplish other than outing our remaining cops to scum, exactly?
Forces scum to lie, gives us information about how they are distributed among us, makes it more likely we'll lynch correctly.
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Interesting things:
- the AHoppy wagon seems very town-driven, as does the Robz wagon
- suspect scum on both Eevee wagons
Please explain these statements. Until you do, vote: Faust
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What does a massclaim accomplish other than outing our remaining cops to scum, exactly?
Forces scum to lie, gives us information about how they are distributed among us, makes it more likely we'll lynch correctly.
I think scum are prepared for a mass claim, though. It's not as though they will scramble.
I would like any cops with town results to come forward now, rather than later.
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Faust, what crazily good reads of pps are you talking about, and why does that make you think he's town?
He's voted seven times, and never voted for one of the townies who died. Now that doesn't make me instantly believe he's town (though it points in that direction), but the wagon on him from D2 also looks like a scum wagon - it has some of my scum reads on it and no confirmed town (except me, but well, I'm only confirmed town to myself).
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What does a massclaim accomplish other than outing our remaining cops to scum, exactly?
Gives our Docs good targets. Forces scum to fakeclaim. Helps us POE scum.
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What does a massclaim accomplish other than outing our remaining cops to scum, exactly?
Helps us POE scum.
I don't think it does though. I'm running through scenarios in my head and I'm not getting how it helps. Could you illustrate an example massclaim where we are helped narrow down scum?
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Glad this discussion is going. I have been and still am predisposed but I've been considering what massclaims get us and I am on the fence about it. While I see the utility in giving the docs targets and giving the cops info to work on there's 2 major drawbacks. 1) Scum knows who best to target at night and even who to work over during the day and 2)Scum is forced to lie and the doctors don't know who is lying so their targets are easily misplaced if scum claims cop.
I'm not seeing the clear and present advantage to town of massclaims. I certainly have an unbiased look at it seeing as I have already shot and claimed. I think it is of absolute importance that the night of the claim not be included for what I hope are obvious reasons.
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Right, I meant to add that forcing scum to lie achieves nothing in particular I do not believe. Revealing the lie requires the exact same steps as needed without the claiming.
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Interesting things:
- the AHoppy wagon seems very town-driven, as does the Robz wagon
- suspect scum on both Eevee wagons
Please explain these statements. Until you do, vote: Faust
1. Of the 6 votes on AHoppy, three are confirmed town, one is a town read for me, and the other two I'm pretty null about.
2. Eevee was a possible lynch candidate throughout D1. Now we know that he was town. Doesn't it seem like scum was trying to push for a lynch here, and when it didn't quite get through, remained there for consistency? Add that almost noone of the confirmed townies voted for him.
Overall, I don't get how I deserved that vote.
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Right, but just because 50% of the wagon, or even more, is town, doesn't mean that it's on a town member. Scum aren't going to commit all 3 members to one viewpoint, usually (and yes, WIFOM, scum could be doing this, but whatever), so it's very possible there were 1-2 scum on his wagon. I think using that information to conclude that Ahoppy is town is making a large leap.
If you think Eevee's wagon was scum, who do you think the scum on the wagon are? Keep in mind that probably the biggest pushers of the wagon were myself and Yuma (although Yuma was hesistant about it). Who on Eevee's wagon do you think is scum?
You got my vote because you're making large assumptions based on what I see as large jumps in logic. Maybe I should back up though, since I found Teproc scummy for doing that D1...
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Jimmm and Faust are both much higher on my scum lists now than they were before.
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Let's set a soft deadline. Does next Tuesday work for everyone? I don't want this to get to the end of the day, given that basically our only active player (Yuma) is dead, and it will be much harder to push for a lynch without him.
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Jimmm and Faust are both much higher on my scum lists now than they were before.
Why?
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I don't understand why we would massclaim. We help our docs figure out to target, but we also help mafia figure out who to target, so that's more of a benefit to them than to us. (And if it wasn't, then it would be better for them to choose randomly whether to kill doc or cop, which means we don't get the benefit for docs, so at best it's neutral.) And forcing them to fakeclaim is like literally no advantage to us. They know the split, they can just claim whatever makes it most even so we don't even get that information. If they claim cop and never give us results, they can just say they're N5 or N6 or whatever, by which point they will probably claim cop with results anyway. I guess it limits their options if they fakeclaim doc? That's just such a small benefit though, for putting our cops in such a vulnerable position. Is there something I'm missing?
Also, vote: pingpongsam, for the reasons I talked about yesterday, though I feel much less strongly about them now than I did then. I'm also wondering about Archetype being "unbelievably confused why Eevee wasn't scum". That just sounds like a huge overstatement. Like, even yesterday when I was pushing my case on PPS and voting for him if he had flipped town I would have been surprised but I wouldn't have been "unbelievably confused".
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I find it rich that scotty comes in and espouses exactly the same theory I posted about massclaiming and then votes me. I'm not saying it's scummy, just an interesting observation. Now, where scotty votes as well as where his votes at the end of the day land I find quite scummy.
If there are scum in Jimmmmm/faust I'd pick faust ahead of Jimmmmm.
I'm still thinking there was likely scum in yuma/Robz and we can see half of that resolved.
I'm also find AHoppy suspect for his behavior yesterday which is plausibly deniable (as he denied).
Finally, I have no reason to believe Archetype is town.
So, yeah, the only people I wouldn't lynch are myself and TA and I'd need some convincing on Jimmmmm.
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Right, but just because 50% of the wagon, or even more, is town, doesn't mean that it's on a town member. Scum aren't going to commit all 3 members to one viewpoint, usually (and yes, WIFOM, scum could be doing this, but whatever), so it's very possible there were 1-2 scum on his wagon. I think using that information to conclude that Ahoppy is town is making a large leap.
I am not saying AHoppy is town. I am saying he is scum. And that's of course not my sole reason for thinking he is scum, I had a scum read before. Only the data fits my feeling.
If you think Eevee's wagon was scum, who do you think the scum on the wagon are? Keep in mind that probably the biggest pushers of the wagon were myself and Yuma (although Yuma was hesistant about it). Who on Eevee's wagon do you think is scum?
I'm looking at Jimmmmm and Archetype for scum there. The biggest pushers of a wagon are often not the scum members of the wagon.
You got my vote because you're making large assumptions based on what I see as large jumps in logic. Maybe I should back up though, since I found Teproc scummy for doing that D1...
Maybe you should. All I've done is some vote analysis. Do you think looking at player's votes is completely without merit?
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I find it rich that scotty comes in and espouses exactly the same theory I posted about massclaiming and then votes me. I'm not saying it's scummy, just an interesting observation. Now, where scotty votes as well as where his votes at the end of the day land I find quite scummy.
If there are scum in Jimmmmm/faust I'd pick faust ahead of Jimmmmm.
I'm still thinking there was likely scum in yuma/Robz and we can see half of that resolved.
I'm also find AHoppy suspect for his behavior yesterday which is plausibly deniable (as he denied).
Finally, I have no reason to believe Archetype is town.
So, yeah, the only people I wouldn't lynch are myself and TA and I'd need some convincing on Jimmmmm.
Well, it's not like the whole town except you two is scum, so you'll have to think about which of all these players that you find scummy you find the least scummy.
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Jimmm and Faust are both much higher on my scum lists now than they were before.
Why?
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If it wasn't for my town read on pps, I would be inclined to believe that TA is scum right now.
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If it wasn't for my town read on pps, I would be inclined to believe that TA is scum right now.
How likely do you think it is that if pps and TA were both scum, pps would invent a result on TA?
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I find it rich that scotty comes in and espouses exactly the same theory I posted about massclaiming and then votes me. I'm not saying it's scummy, just an interesting observation. Now, where scotty votes as well as where his votes at the end of the day land I find quite scummy.
If there are scum in Jimmmmm/faust I'd pick faust ahead of Jimmmmm.
I'm still thinking there was likely scum in yuma/Robz and we can see half of that resolved.
I'm also find AHoppy suspect for his behavior yesterday which is plausibly deniable (as he denied).
Finally, I have no reason to believe Archetype is town.
So, yeah, the only people I wouldn't lynch are myself and TA and I'd need some convincing on Jimmmmm.
Well, it's not like the whole town except you two is scum, so you'll have to think about which of all these players that you find scummy you find the least scummy.
Oh, yeah, that list is ordered from stronger scum read to slight scum read.
So:
Scott
Faust
Robz
AHoppy
Archetype
Good thing I jst did that because I realized I was missing someone and had to check the roster. chairs!, wtf, that guy I just do not know, what a lurker. Imma go read up on chairs today and fit him in the list although I might find him towny?
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pps, what is your scum read on me based upon?
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If it wasn't for my town read on pps, I would be inclined to believe that TA is scum right now.
How likely do you think it is that if pps and TA were both scum, pps would invent a result on TA?
100%. If pps and TA were both scum, pps obviously invented a result on TA.
... something tells me this was not the answer you were looking for.
I think pps was under pressure when he claimed (at L-2). So, he would want to claim something. What does scum do? A) claim to have investigated town for towncred from that particular townie. B) Claim to have investigated your partner to have him get towncred.
Now, I'm used to pretty bold play by scum!pps (see his claim in RMM12), so I can easily imagine him taking the riskier, but more rewarding option B. I'd say scum!pps is more likely to claim a result on fellow scum than on town.
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pps, what is your scum read on me based upon?
My top 3 scum flags:
D1: All of your votes were either on me, yuma or Teproc. 2/3 of that group are confirmed Town. 3/3 are known Town for me.
D2: Immediately moved to lynch PPS for claiming cop with a terrible argument for doing so.
D3: Supports massclaims with relatively weak arguments.
I'm not getting screaming scum from you but then knowing you to be a strong player I don't think I would. The biggest obstacle to seeing you as scum is not being able to find much of anything that indicates you are partnered with anyone else. I think evidence of partnering should be visible at this stage of the game.
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pps, what is your scum read on me based upon?
My top 3 scum flags:
D1: All of your votes were either on me, yuma or Teproc. 2/3 of that group are confirmed Town. 3/3 are known Town for me.
That's not completely correct, I also voted chairs. But I get your point. Only the question is would scum!me kill yuma knowing that it will lead to this kind of suspicion? Well maybe, he's a strong player that scum might want out of the game. You should keep in mind though that these were D1 votes which don't tell very much.
D2: Immediately moved to lynch PPS for claiming cop with a terrible argument for doing so.
Yes, my argument was quite bad. Though, in retrospect, you have to agree that for town, lynching you would have been better than lynching Eevee. So why would scum!me try to push your lynch instead?
D3: Supports massclaims with relatively weak arguments.
I'm not a super strong proponent of massclaims. I'd like them, but don't think they are the key to win this game.
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I think all of your arguments are fair and valid and are representative of why I have no outstanding vote right now.
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If it wasn't for my town read on pps, I would be inclined to believe that TA is scum right now.
How likely do you think it is that if pps and TA were both scum, pps would invent a result on TA?
100%. If pps and TA were both scum, pps obviously invented a result on TA.
... something tells me this was not the answer you were looking for.
I think pps was under pressure when he claimed (at L-2). So, he would want to claim something. What does scum do? A) claim to have investigated town for towncred from that particular townie. B) Claim to have investigated your partner to have him get towncred.
Now, I'm used to pretty bold play by scum!pps (see his claim in RMM12), so I can easily imagine him taking the riskier, but more rewarding option B. I'd say scum!pps is more likely to claim a result on fellow scum than on town.
I agree--big time--with faust here. A couple things about TA have already struck me as off:
Well I was thinking Yuma was scum going into today. Weird. Need to reevaluate the end of days now..
I don't want this to get to the end of the day, given that basically our only active player (Yuma) is dead, and it will be much harder to push for a lynch without him.
These statements always strike me as scummy, even though there is nothing technically wrong with them. It just demonstrates someone doing a lot of thinking about who was leading the town, possibly during the night and the nightkill was being chosen.
Now, we have PPS's result, so obviously we will not lynch TA under any circumstances. But yea, as faust says, I think most people fake claiming cop would fake claim a town result on a townie in that situation, but PPS is actually someone who might do the bolder thing.
I'm more likely to want to lynch PPS then, I guess.
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Also, a PPS lynch maximizes our chances of leaving our remaining cops and docs alive. We know he is scum, or used up. Obviously lynching scum is way more important than conserving PRs, but it would be a minor thing in favor of lynching him.
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And the more I've thought about it the more completely and totally opposed I am to massclaim today.
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Here's a point in favour of claiming Today: It may be reasonably unlikely, but it's possible we could have no Cops left by Tomorrow. If that happens, scum will almost certainly all claim Doc, and we'll lose all PoE benefits of massclaiming.
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I'm in favor of voting PPS here.
At work, so not going to vote until I can check vote counts.
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Robz, those really strike you as odd? Look at it from my point of view:
At the end of the days, the only person truly active and pushing for a lynch was Yuma. Basically, between myself and Yuma, we decided to lynch Teproc over Ahoppy, and Eevee over Archetype. If we had switched, we could have potentially lynched town.
The fact that we lynched town twice made me very wary that I was being manipulated by scum Yuma, and potentially Ahoppy and Archetype are scum. Now that I know yuma is town, though, I'm less suspicious of Ahoppy and Archetype than before -- I'm not saying they are town, but if they are scum, there was very, very, very little activity by scum to push the lynch towards Teproc/Eevee. Which is a little odd -- in a toss-up situation, I'd expect scum to actually try a little to save their teammate. Maybe Scott did this a little at the end of D2 with Archetype -- if Arch is scum, I'd have a much higher scum read on Scott.
I thought that I was pretty sure who scum was, if Yuma was town, and now I'm probably wrong on that. Which is disorienting. I thought that since I was wrong, it was more likely I was being misled by Yuma, but now I know that isn't true.
This ups my suspicion of other members of the game who haven't had much attention yet -- the two most notable in my mind being Jimmmmm and Faust.
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Here's a point in favour of claiming Today: It may be reasonably unlikely, but it's possible we could have no Cops left by Tomorrow. If that happens, scum will almost certainly all claim Doc, and we'll lose all PoE benefits of massclaiming.
Once again, what PoE benefits of massclaiming are there? I just can't envision a scenario where we see "Ok, we have 2 claimed cops and 7 claimed doctors, we now have a much better chance of finding out where scum is". Until someone provides me with a convincing argument as to how massclaiming can help us narrow down scum, I won't support it.
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I would like any cops with N2 results to come forward immediately.
Holding onto results can be nice, but I feel that the possibilities of a scum fake claim make holding onto a claim more confusing than helpful. We need to be able to analyze the truth of any claim, and the sooner that claim comes out, the easier that will be to do.
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Robz, those really strike you as odd? Look at it from my point of view:
At the end of the days, the only person truly active and pushing for a lynch was Yuma. Basically, between myself and Yuma, we decided to lynch Teproc over Ahoppy, and Eevee over Archetype. If we had switched, we could have potentially lynched town.
The fact that we lynched town twice made me very wary that I was being manipulated by scum Yuma, and potentially Ahoppy and Archetype are scum. Now that I know yuma is town, though, I'm less suspicious of Ahoppy and Archetype than before -- I'm not saying they are town, but if they are scum, there was very, very, very little activity by scum to push the lynch towards Teproc/Eevee. Which is a little odd -- in a toss-up situation, I'd expect scum to actually try a little to save their teammate. Maybe Scott did this a little at the end of D2 with Archetype -- if Arch is scum, I'd have a much higher scum read on Scott.
I thought that I was pretty sure who scum was, if Yuma was town, and now I'm probably wrong on that. Which is disorienting. I thought that since I was wrong, it was more likely I was being misled by Yuma, but now I know that isn't true.
This ups my suspicion of other members of the game who haven't had much attention yet -- the two most notable in my mind being Jimmmmm and Faust.
That's totally reasonable, and could very well be the case.
On the other hand, if, as you say you and Yuma were the main people deciding on lynches at the end, and both lynches ended up on town, and Yuma is town, that makes you look scummy, really. Obviously, it doesn't make you look scummy to yourself, though.
I don't know, your statements to me suggest you're doing the sort of calculus that scum would have been doing during the night.
And you usually radiate towniness, whereas in this game, I have a bad feeling about you. (Your uncharacteristic turn as a lurker in the middle of Day 2 didn't help matters--that's not really fair to you, it's just not at all behavior I typically associate with you as town).
All of this is contradicted by PPS's claim.
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I'm kind of suspicious of Jimm. I'm not really suspicious of faust. He seems like his town self. A LOT like his town self.
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I'm kind of suspicious of Jimm. I'm not really suspicious of faust. He seems like his town self. A LOT like his town self.
Details? All of my suspicion on Jimmmmm dissipated with my results on TA.
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I'm kind of suspicious of Jimm. I'm not really suspicious of faust. He seems like his town self. A LOT like his town self.
Details? All of my suspicion on Jimmmmm dissipated with my results on TA.
I don't mean that I'm especially suspicious of him but I don't recall that he's really been scrutinized much, or contributed much since the beginning of Day 2.
Why are your suspicions of him totally assuaged by the TA result?
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I haven't seen Jimmmmm do anything that I would construe as scummy since D1. I observed his D2 stance towards me with a "probTown lens" because I tend to get fairly hot when I'm implicated without substance. He finally delivered some substance. I would say that his behavior D2 was heavily scrutinized. I would say that Robz' suspicions are the ones being delivered without substance right now.
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Well, I'm, not gunning for him, but out of TA, PPS, Jimm, Ahoppy, Scotty, Archetype, faust, and chairs... 3 people are scum. I'm mildly suspicious of almost everyone.
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vote: pps just gonna go with my gut.
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Yeah, let's see where this goes. Vote: PPS
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vote: pps just gonna go with my gut.
Weren't you like 90% sure that yuma is scum before? I wouldn't trust your gut too much.
That said, there is some value in lynching pps, as I already laid out last Day. I guess I could vote him if it's him or some player I'd rather not lynch, but I would still prefer AHoppy or Archetype.
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I reread chairs and all the guy has done is lurk and mostly sheep the popular vote. So far he has not been on the final town wagon for the day.
If it were earlier in the game I think he would make a decent lynch for this behavior but at this stage I have to say it strikes me not so much as Town but simply not scum. Either scum is playing an excellent game to date or Town is playing truly piss poorly. I'm just not seeing Town play so piss poorly that scum!chairs can yawn his way to the win. I'm going to lean with chairs being Town who is playing a sheep 'em lazy man's game.
While re-reading chairs I became a little more cognizant of where Archetype lay. Arch is also sheeping popular votes but in that not the 1st guy but still early enough to not look too obvious way I find to be a hallmark of scum. Otherwise he is playing fairly off the radar as well. Archetype moved way farther up my lynch list on re-read.
I am siding with faust here in that AHoppy or Archetype are decent lynches. Archetype for looking like scum in the game and AHoppy being more of a PoE for where I think scum might be in the way this game shapes up. By that, I mean I still stand by my original assertion that we nearly nabbed scum D1 with his wagon. He stayed way out of the way D2 and took the safe road with the vote on my result (which he denies) while I'd be willing to bet his only contribution to this day as it stands would be to lynch me because I'm the viable lynch over faust (and we both keep looking at him). His buddying towards TA and Eevee in D2 struck me as somewhat ingenuine then and strike me as disingenuous today.
Refined Reads list:
Scummy:
AHoppy
Archetype
Scotty
Null to slight scum:
Robz
chairs
Null to slight town:
faust
Jimmmmm
confTown:
TA/pps
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Just checking in: I have not read any of today yet because I have been super busy with life... I should be able to catch up tonight... Sorry I haven't been any help today
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I am at L-2. About to head home before the snow gets too crazy, will probably have some time to post this evening.
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Hmm, I guess TA was right that yuma was leading the discussion, because this is just ridiculously quiet.
I largely agree, actually, with the reads PPS has posted. I think there definitely has to be scum in the mega lurking trio of Ahoppy, Archetype, and Scotty. But I don't know if I feel strongly enough on who that might be to move forward on a lynch there, instead of PPS.
Sort of puzzling. Very little discussion. Can someone do a post count? Maybe I could look for patterns there.
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Wow. So, I've been around off and on today since I'm snowed in but I've been busy assembling baby furniture and setting up a new NAS. I'm not sure what I can do to push the game forward. I've already done rereads and posted a list of reads. It is truly a ghost town in here.
Maybe this will do something? Vote: AHoppy, heas at the top of my list and he said he would catch up last night and nothing has come from him.
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Vote Count 3.2
Archetype (2): Jimmmmm, faust
faust (1): Twisteadarcher
pingpongsam (3): scott_pilgrim, chairs, Robz888
AHoppy (1): pingpongsam
Not Voting (2): AHoppy, Archetype
With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.
Day 3 ends 12:00 AM February 21st.
If players don't post soon, I'm prodding everybody.
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I keep checking this, thinking "I should post something", and then not doing it because I don't have anything to say. I still like my PPS vote and no one has said anything that makes me want to move it (either in defense of PPS or in offense of someone else). I don't have any new reasons to add. I think non-activity is kind of a positive feedback loop, if no one posts, no one has anything to respond to, so no one posts.
Anyway, if PPS lynch doesn't happen Archetype is next on my list. I would still like to hear him explain his unbelievable confusion at Eevee's flip. Other than that it's kind of a toss-up. Obviously I'm not going to lynch TA or myself, but out of the other five players I could see any being scum, but none really scummier than the others. Maybe chairs?
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This is a pretty ridiculous amount of non-activity, but... I've been no better, so. Well, still, I think this has to mean something. Haven't a clue what. Part of me says, well, we have the right lynch, scum know it, and they are out of moves for now. The other part of me says, no, wouldn't scum be working to like counteract this lynch, if it were on them? Because it's not it going through is a sure thing (although it becomes surer, I think, the less anybody talks). But maybe scum just want me to think that, so they are deliberately not saying anything, expecting--very possibly correctly--that the wagon will fizzle of its own accord?
Or maybe it means nothing, and everyone is just a little tired of playing? That happens, sometimes.
I feel like I'm not getting anything from scotty, Ahoppy, and Arch. Chairs is close behind them. Jimm is quieter than he should be--he is an experienced player, and we need his expertise. TA, PPS, and faust are all at acceptable participation levels.
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Maybe let's do it this way... if PPS is scum, who are his partners?
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Maybe let's do it this way... if PPS is scum, who are his partners?
If pps were to flip scum, I'd look for them among TA, Jimmmmm or Archetype. Maybe consider chairs or Robz.
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prod: Ahoppy, chairs, TwistedArcher, Archetype, Jimmmmm
good grief
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Yes, this has slowed down immensely. How about everyone posts a reads list, just like pps did? I'll start:
(from scum to town)
AHoppy - I feel I have already explained much of why I find him suspicious.
Archetype - scummy voting patterns, little activity. Was on both wagons that lynched town IIRC.
scott - newbie yes, but that's not excuse for everything, like hopping the Eevee and Teproc wagons late. Also his latest "I would lynch anyone"-post reads scummy to me.
Robz - most memorable was his fight with yuma, in which I originally thought he came off as scummier (and look, yuma is town!). yuma also started this, right? But nothing else froms his play really stands out for me.
chairs - the lightest of town reads because I like his voting patterns. His lurking is as usual.
pingpongsam - would be townier in this list if it wasn't for TA's scummy behaviour. I think his voting pattern speaks for him.
Jimmmmm - pushed Eevee hard for a long time, stronger than I think scum would have.
TA - logically has to be in a townier spot than pps, even if my gut would place him as scummier.
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I think 14 day deadline are too long.
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Request to /out. We're still on mandatory OT here, and it's not fair to anybody that I'm lurking this hard. I'll keep trying to find time to contribute in the meantime, but I'm just not seeing myself getting much more active.
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Request to /out. We're still on mandatory OT here, and it's not fair to anybody that I'm lurking this hard. I'll keep trying to find time to contribute in the meantime, but I'm just not seeing myself getting much more active.
9. Players who discover they are too busy to play in a game or want to leave the game for civility issues are not allowed to officially /out in the thread. A request to /out must only be done via a PM to the moderator. Please do not use this as a manipulation technique. (Note players may continue to threaten to /out or imply that they might as long as it does not include an official request). Requests to /out are final once submitted. There will be no /outing and then /inning back into the game so make sure that when you /out you have thought it through and really want to do it. Players that can't be replaced will simply be mod-killed.
Modkill: chairs
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It looks to me like sudgy's rule is specifically designed to avoid the exact sort of discussion that we are now likely to have, so I'm going to lock the thread to prevent that. Normally I wouldn't since I'm a player in the game, but it looks very very very clear to me that the thing sudgy wants most is to not have lingering /outs that then become the subject of in-game scrutiny.
Anyone who has views on this topic, I suggest that you PM sudgy.
I'm now locking the thread until sudgy adjudicates this.
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Chairs has been modkilled. He was a town cop.
I did this because:
1. It can break the game to get a replacement this late in the game.
2. It was, in a sense, breaking the rules.
NIGHT 3 START
Please get your night actions in within 48 hours.
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Jimmmmm was killed last night. He was a Town Doctor.
DAY 4 START
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So, someone correct me if I am wrong please, but this is LYLO, right?
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Yeah. 7 players. 4 Town and 3 Scum. Sheesh.
Alright, we need to massclaim. If we mislynch today, scum knowing what our PRs are won't make a difference.
I'm a N1 Doctor. I protected faust. It was a tossup between him and PPS, and I ended up with faust. Probably the lamest one since D1 there were no obvious people to protect.
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Hold on there. I think we still need to discuss whether to massclaim, because if lynch right tonight, we want our PRs in good working order. So, assuming we don't lose right now, mass claim is still bad. Maybe we need to massclaim to not lose right now, but I'm convinced.
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but I'm NOT convinced
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I'm a little peeved how yesterday ended. A Townie effectively suicided. It's one thing to mislynch because then we at least had the chance of hitting scum. That said, I'm hoping there is newfound motivation to actually play the game today.
I'm not opposed to a massclaim at this point. I think I prefer to hear if anyone had cop results last night first though.
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Hold on there. I think we still need to discuss whether to massclaim, because if lynch right tonight, we want our PRs in good working order. So, assuming we don't lose right now, mass claim is still bad. Maybe we need to massclaim to not lose right now, but I'm convinced.
Scumslip?
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With Jimmmmm flipping Town I am more certain that AHoppy and/or Archetype are scum.
Vote: AHoppy
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With Jimmmmm flipping Town I am more certain that AHoppy and/or Archetype are scum.
Vote: AHoppy
Why?
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I definitely think we should at least wait for cop results.
I still don't really see the benefit of massclaim. I mean if we are otherwise going to mislynch obviously it's better to massclaim, but we're basically throwing away the long-run to slightly improve our chances in the short term. If we massclaim then we probably never see new cop results (other than PPS's and anyone who claims today).
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With Jimmmmm flipping Town I am more certain that AHoppy and/or Archetype are scum.
Vote: AHoppy
Why?
Pretty simple, my reads have basically just been spot on this whole game. I thought Jimmmmm was Town and he was. Robz and chairs were the only guys I thought might be scum but wasn't real sure about and we see how chairs flipped.
I'm still open to an Archetype or scotty lynch but I would have to see some claims/results/arguments first. I feel really good about the likelihood AHoppy flips scum. I've been saying that since D1 and every day in between. There has been nothing to occur that would change my mind otherwise to date.
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Fair enough.
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With Jimmmmm flipping Town I am more certain that AHoppy and/or Archetype are scum.
Vote: AHoppy
I disagree, I am looking in the Faust/Robz/PPS area for scum. Maybe Scott replacing one of those two.
The lack of urgency at the end of D1 and D2 does not lead me to believe we had a good chance at lynching scum.
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Vote:Faust . It sucks that we have this stuff to analyze, but I feel that he jumped really quickly on the "A Town member made a slip! Modkill him, now!" Perhaps he didn't realize that it would end the day rather than putting us into MYLO, but that's how I immediately read it. It doesn't make sense for a town member to be jumping so quickly to "HEY NOW WE HAVE TO MODKILL THIS GUY!!!!!"
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I am opposed to massclaim.
Massclaim is good if we need 1 correct lynch to win. But, we need 3 correct lynches to win.
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We probably shouldn't be voting at all, just to be safe. Quickhammers are difficult but not impossible, being that scum wins milsnych her.
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With Jimmmmm flipping Town I am more certain that AHoppy and/or Archetype are scum.
Vote: AHoppy
Why?
Pretty simple, my reads have basically just been spot on this whole game. I thought Jimmmmm was Town and he was. Robz and chairs were the only guys I thought might be scum but wasn't real sure about and we see how chairs flipped.
I'm still open to an Archetype or scotty lynch but I would have to see some claims/results/arguments first. I feel really good about the likelihood AHoppy flips scum. I've been saying that since D1 and every day in between. There has been nothing to occur that would change my mind otherwise to date.
I don't get this argument that you and Faust keep reading.
Your reads being spot on means NOTHING, especially when those have been exclusively town reads. You haven't yet nailed scum. Guess what? It's MUCH easier for scum to correctly identify town than it is for town to correctly identify town.
Why do you think having correct town reads should get you town cred, when if you were scum, you'd know who the town are?
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Vote:Faust . It sucks that we have this stuff to analyze, but I feel that he jumped really quickly on the "A Town member made a slip! Modkill him, now!" Perhaps he didn't realize that it would end the day rather than putting us into MYLO, but that's how I immediately read it. It doesn't make sense for a town member to be jumping so quickly to "HEY NOW WE HAVE TO MODKILL THIS GUY!!!!!"
And I don't agree with that at all. It was the right call, as much as I hate it--and as much as I feel like all these sorts of things lately have gone against my side's interests--and I award no scum points for pointing it out.
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Robz' effort from D2 on feels like scum!Robz turning it on, and making sure the game goes the way he wants to.
I have admittedly not yet read fully Yuma vs. Robz (I need to, I know my effort this game has been pathetic), but I want to go back and re-read this.
The ends of D1 and D2 were dominated by myself and Yuma. We both had Teproc-Ahoppy-Eevee as three of our top scum reads. The fact that we were allowed to control those day ends, with no one else really intervening, leads me to believe scum was completely ok with that happening, leading me to conclude Ahoppy is town.
I am less sure on Archetype. It's possible Scott was running interference for Archetype at the end of D2, but honestly, I believe more than anything else that Faust/PPS/Robz is the team, or that it's 2/3 of them.
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Vote:Faust . It sucks that we have this stuff to analyze, but I feel that he jumped really quickly on the "A Town member made a slip! Modkill him, now!" Perhaps he didn't realize that it would end the day rather than putting us into MYLO, but that's how I immediately read it. It doesn't make sense for a town member to be jumping so quickly to "HEY NOW WE HAVE TO MODKILL THIS GUY!!!!!"
And I don't agree with that at all. It was the right call, as much as I hate it--and as much as I feel like all these sorts of things lately have gone against my side's interests--and I award no scum points for pointing it out.
I know I wouldn't be jumping to have a town read mod-killed. I wouldn't argue against it if it happened. But no way would I jump to point it out.
Do you disagree?
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Vote:Faust . It sucks that we have this stuff to analyze, but I feel that he jumped really quickly on the "A Town member made a slip! Modkill him, now!" Perhaps he didn't realize that it would end the day rather than putting us into MYLO, but that's how I immediately read it. It doesn't make sense for a town member to be jumping so quickly to "HEY NOW WE HAVE TO MODKILL THIS GUY!!!!!"
And I don't agree with that at all. It was the right call, as much as I hate it--and as much as I feel like all these sorts of things lately have gone against my side's interests--and I award no scum points for pointing it out.
I know I wouldn't be jumping to have a town read mod-killed. I wouldn't argue against it if it happened. But no way would I jump to point it out.
Do you disagree?
Yes, I disagree.
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Does anyone oppose to me setting up a claim order for cop results for today, since I'm the closest thing to an IC we have? If not, I will absolutely do this. I do not want to go into later in the day to have scum the ability to pop up with a fakeclaim.
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I mean I see what you're saying, but I doubt he would be that bold if scum. And I mean it was just plain the right thing to do. Faust has been a pretty top town read for m for a long time though.
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Scum to town:
Faust
Robz
PPS
Archetype
Scott
Ahoppy
Everyone should make one of these lists.
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Does anyone oppose to me setting up a claim order for cop results for today, since I'm the closest thing to an IC we have? If not, I will absolutely do this. I do not want to go into later in the day to have scum the ability to pop up with a fakeclaim.
I oppose this.
I am far from convinced that we should actually claim--it hurts are chances of winning in the long run.
I'm also far from convinced your town. Actually, I could easily see you and PPS as scum, having decided during the night that you would be all against him today for good measure.
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Also I do think it's safest to unvote!
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Faust has been a pretty top town read for m for a long time though.
Why is this?
Also, what do you think of Faust and PPS giving PPS towncred for all of his correct town reads? It's pretty bogus, right?
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And I can't really make a list. I think faust is town, I know TA is only scum if PPS is scum too, PPS is scummy so this seems decently likely, no idea on Arch or Scotty or Ahoppy.
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Does anyone oppose to me setting up a claim order for cop results for today, since I'm the closest thing to an IC we have? If not, I will absolutely do this. I do not want to go into later in the day to have scum the ability to pop up with a fakeclaim.
I oppose this.
I am far from convinced that we should actually claim--it hurts are chances of winning in the long run.
I'm also far from convinced your town. Actually, I could easily see you and PPS as scum, having decided during the night that you would be all against him today for good measure.
Not massclaim -- claim N3 cop results.
You and Faust have been trying to discredit me since D3, now. Lots of "Man, TA makes NO sense, if it wasn't for PPS, we totally would lynch him right now". It's trying to discredit me, nothing else.
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And I can't really make a list. I think faust is town, I know TA is only scum if PPS is scum too, PPS is scummy so this seems decently likely, no idea on Arch or Scotty or Ahoppy.
It's D4, it's about time to be able to make a list. How do you not have reads on half of the players alive on D4?
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Faust has been a pretty top town read for m for a long time though.
Why is this?
Also, what do you think of Faust and PPS giving PPS towncred for all of his correct town reads? It's pretty bogus, right?
I've generally agreed with his opinions, and I think he's acting like his town self. I've seen town faust a lot lately.
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Scott, Archetype, Ahoppy: I think you guys are the townies. Who do you think scum is?
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And I can't really make a list. I think faust is town, I know TA is only scum if PPS is scum too, PPS is scummy so this seems decently likely, no idea on Arch or Scotty or Ahoppy.
It's D4, it's about time to be able to make a list. How do you not have reads on half of the players alive on D4?
Because half the players alive haven't said anything of consequence since Day 1.
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And I can't really make a list. I think faust is town, I know TA is only scum if PPS is scum too, PPS is scummy so this seems decently likely, no idea on Arch or Scotty or Ahoppy.
It's D4, it's about time to be able to make a list. How do you not have reads on half of the players alive on D4?
Because half the players alive haven't said anything of consequence since Day 1.
Ahoppy and Archetype were major wagons D1. Surely you should be able to glean something from that?
Do the end of days D1 and D2 feel like we were close to a correct lynch?
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Does anyone oppose to me setting up a claim order for cop results for today, since I'm the closest thing to an IC we have? If not, I will absolutely do this. I do not want to go into later in the day to have scum the ability to pop up with a fakeclaim.
I oppose this.
I am far from convinced that we should actually claim--it hurts are chances of winning in the long run.
I'm also far from convinced your town. Actually, I could easily see you and PPS as scum, having decided during the night that you would be all against him today for good measure.
Not massclaim -- claim N3 cop results.
You and Faust have been trying to discredit me since D3, now. Lots of "Man, TA makes NO sense, if it wasn't for PPS, we totally would lynch him right now". It's trying to discredit me, nothing else.
I'm not discrediting you, I'm trying to think what I think.
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Ok. What do you think about the forced claim order for potential N3 cop results?
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And I can't really make a list. I think faust is town, I know TA is only scum if PPS is scum too, PPS is scummy so this seems decently likely, no idea on Arch or Scotty or Ahoppy.
It's D4, it's about time to be able to make a list. How do you not have reads on half of the players alive on D4?
Because half the players alive haven't said anything of consequence since Day 1.
Ahoppy and Archetype were major wagons D1. Surely you should be able to glean something from that?
Do the end of days D1 and D2 feel like we were close to a correct lynch?
I remember that, I said since Day 1, they haven't really done anyhting or been part of the conversation. This has to be a scummier trait than a townier one, come to think of it.
I don't know if we were close to a correct lynch either of those days. We're suffering from mass disinterest from most of the players who continue to live.
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Like, leaving scum the ability to swoop in whenever they want to with a fake result seems pretty undesirable.
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Ok. What do you think about the forced claim order for potential N3 cop results?
I don't even understand the question, what!?
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Oh, okay yeah. Well, okay, everyone with any result should claim. On that, I agree, if that's all you were asking for.
I don't really think you need to design some order for it. In fact I would prefer if you didn't, but I see why YOU might want that.
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And I can't really make a list. I think faust is town, I know TA is only scum if PPS is scum too, PPS is scummy so this seems decently likely, no idea on Arch or Scotty or Ahoppy.
It's D4, it's about time to be able to make a list. How do you not have reads on half of the players alive on D4?
Because half the players alive haven't said anything of consequence since Day 1.
Ahoppy and Archetype were major wagons D1. Surely you should be able to glean something from that?
Do the end of days D1 and D2 feel like we were close to a correct lynch?
I remember that, I said since Day 1, they haven't really done anyhting or been part of the conversation. This has to be a scummier trait than a townier one, come to think of it.
I don't know if we were close to a correct lynch either of those days. We're suffering from mass disinterest from most of the players who continue to live.
Has it, though? I mean, Jimmmmm suffered from the same, and he was town.
I think we are bickering, I think you are scum and you are not going to dissuade me, so I don't think us talking past each other does anything more than clutter up the thread.
Looking forward to everyone checking in.
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Oh, okay yeah. Well, okay, everyone with any result should claim. On that, I agree, if that's all you were asking for.
I don't really think you need to design some order for it. In fact I would prefer if you didn't, but I see why YOU might want that.
I mean, scum agenda will absolutely change if they know town has a result first. It's best to counteract that.
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I really don't think I'm bickering with you, i's actually nice to have someone to talk to about things for a change. Please don't stop!
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I guess bickering was a bad word choice, I just meant that we clearly disagree and that's not going to change. I'm happy to talk if something interesting comes up for sure. Hopefully I will be able to maintain my activity level through all of today :P
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I guess bickering was a bad word choice, I just meant that we clearly disagree and that's not going to change. I'm happy to talk if something interesting comes up for sure. Hopefully I will be able to maintain my activity level through all of today :P
Ugh, no it might change, I don't know for sure what I think!
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I guess bickering was a bad word choice, I just meant that we clearly disagree and that's not going to change. I'm happy to talk if something interesting comes up for sure. Hopefully I will be able to maintain my activity level through all of today :P
Ugh, no it might change, I don't know for sure what I think!
Haha I don't think I will convince you that you're scum.
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I know what you mean about claim order and scum and all that I just doubt it will matter, but it could matter if you're scum and you engineer it in some beneficial way. Obviously that doesn't matter to you.
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Oh, well then no.
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I know what you mean about claim order and scum and all that I just doubt it will matter, but it could matter if you're scum and you engineer it in some beneficial way. Obviously that doesn't matter to you.
I guess, but some order is better than no order, cause even if the order has all 3 scum going last, it won't really change, since scum could have just sat back and waited, anyways.
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Claim order is nice in theory, but at this point I don't know whether TA is town or scum, and I wouldn't want him deciding the order if he were scum. Still, I think any fixed order is better than no order. It means that scum can't lurk to see what other people claim, and then jump in when they want. To put it another way, if we don't fix an order, scum is effectively choosing the order by claiming when they want to, whereas if we do, then worst case, TA is scum and it's equally bad, but possibly the claim order helps us. So I think it's fine if TA chooses an order. Really I don't think it's likely to matter, but if it does I think it benefits town, so I would say go ahead TA.
Scum to town:
Archetype
PPS
(break)
Robz
AHoppy
faust
TA
(break)
SP
That's a little misleading because TA's position is heavily dependent on how PPS flips. Archetype is at the top now, he was already high up but I really don't like how he came into today and said "Massclaim is best, I'm doc" without waiting for anyone to agree or disagree with the massclaim plan. To me it looks like he's thinking "If I kick off this massclaim maybe others will follow" which I still think is better for scum than for town.
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Archetype is at the top now, he was already high up but I really don't like how he came into today and said "Massclaim is best, I'm doc" without waiting for anyone to agree or disagree with the massclaim plan. To me it looks like he's thinking "If I kick off this massclaim maybe others will follow" which I still think is better for scum than for town.
I agree that it was scummy, but not for that reason. I think it's scummy because it like let's him get his claim out of the way, so that we will subconsciously add him to the list of people who are already accounted for. I read it as kind of gung-ho and forced.
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If Arch is scum, the claim was definitely planned by him and his partners, so that's something to take into consideration...it would be scummy coming from anyone else, but I don't know if it is coming from Archetype....
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With Jimmmmm flipping Town I am more certain that AHoppy and/or Archetype are scum.
Vote: AHoppy
Why?
Pretty simple, my reads have basically just been spot on this whole game. I thought Jimmmmm was Town and he was. Robz and chairs were the only guys I thought might be scum but wasn't real sure about and we see how chairs flipped.
I'm still open to an Archetype or scotty lynch but I would have to see some claims/results/arguments first. I feel really good about the likelihood AHoppy flips scum. I've been saying that since D1 and every day in between. There has been nothing to occur that would change my mind otherwise to date.
I don't get this argument that you and Faust keep reading.
Your reads being spot on means NOTHING, especially when those have been exclusively town reads. You haven't yet nailed scum. Guess what? It's MUCH easier for scum to correctly identify town than it is for town to correctly identify town.
Why do you think having correct town reads should get you town cred, when if you were scum, you'd know who the town are?
Maybe I haven't "nailed scum" because no one else will vote where I am voting. To date I have failed to place a vote on a confirmed Townie with the exception of a heated OMGUS vote on Jimmmmm that I rescinded fairly quickly realizing OMGUS isn't good play. If I am not voting on Townies repeatedly all the way to D4 then it would appear at this point that I've been voting scum all along, no? Or do you think I am somehow scum who has been voting the same way all the way to D4 letting Town mop themselves up so this brilliant plan suddenly pans out on D4?
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Okay, but to take the other side, maybe you've never voted for town because you know who all the townies are? I'd say that never having voted for town is definitely a scum trait more than a town trait.
So maybe I do agree with TA.
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Your argument that scum knows who Town is better than Town does not explain why I've yet to vote a confirmed Townie. Does scum do that all the way to D4?
I think AHoppy is the most likely scum and I'm not dropping my vote because Robz thinks it makes it too easy for scum to hammer him.
That TA reads AHoppy as his top town read is mind boggling to me and if I didn't know him to be Town I'd think it was a huge scum tell.
PPE 1: How in the hell is never having voted for town a definite scum trait? Is this bizarro world? Even if you want to twist it that way then scum!pps must be bussing all along so then we should still follow scum!pps vote, right?
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Your argument that scum knows who Town is better than Town does not explain why I've yet to vote a confirmed Townie. Does scum do that all the way to D4?
I think AHoppy is the most likely scum and I'm not dropping my vote because Robz thinks it makes it too easy for scum to hammer him.
That TA reads AHoppy as his top town read is mind boggling to me and if I didn't know him to be Town I'd think it was a huge scum tell.
PPE 1: How in the hell is never having voted for town a definite scum trait? Is this bizarro world? Even if you want to twist it that way then scum!pps must be bussing all along so then we should still follow scum!pps vote, right?
Maybe scum does that all the way to Day 4. I mean, maybe you did. Town never voting for voting is certainly the stranger thing.
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Scum only votes for town if they need to. If archetype and ahoppy are town, there's been no need to ever vote for town as mafia.
I am not saying this makes you obv scum but I am very confused at your call for town cred for this.
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Scum only votes for town if they need to. If archetype and ahoppy are town, there's been no need to ever vote for town as mafia.
I am not saying this makes you obv scum but I am very confused at your call for town cred for this.
I am thoroughly confused by the entirety of this quote. I mean I really don't comprehend it at all.
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Scum to Town:
scotty
AHoppy
(break)
Robz888
faust
pingpongsam
(break)
Twistedarcher
Archetype
Archetype is at the top now, he was already high up but I really don't like how he came into today and said "Massclaim is best, I'm doc" without waiting for anyone to agree or disagree with the massclaim plan. To me it looks like he's thinking "If I kick off this massclaim maybe others will follow" which I still think is better for scum than for town.
I agree that it was scummy, but not for that reason. I think it's scummy because it like let's him get his claim out of the way, so that we will subconsciously add him to the list of people who are already accounted for. I read it as kind of gung-ho and forced.
I was all for it yesterday as well. I figured I'd claim right off the bat because:
A) I think it's best for Town. So yeah, I don't mind setting the precedent or urging people along.
B) I'm unlikely to be NKed. Seems like the general consensus is that I'm scummy and scum hate to NK scummy players when they can easily score a mislynch during the day. So me not claiming doesn't really "eliminate any NK targets" because I don't think I ever was one in the first place.
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Scum only votes for town if they need to. If archetype and ahoppy are town, there's been no need to ever vote for town as mafia.
I am not saying this makes you obv scum but I am very confused at your call for town cred for this.
I am thoroughly confused by the entirety of this quote. I mean I really don't comprehend it at all.
You can play dumb or you can try to convince me you're town, your choice
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Remember Cops, immediatly claim Scum!results upon receiving them.
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Yeah. 7 players. 4 Town and 3 Scum. Sheesh.
Alright, we need to massclaim. If we mislynch today, scum knowing what our PRs are won't make a difference.
I'm a N1 Doctor. I protected faust. It was a tossup between him and PPS, and I ended up with faust. Probably the lamest one since D1 there were no obvious people to protect.
This post is weird. It's no good for town to claim doctor (especially, with your night!), it won't give twoncred, why would scum plan something like this? It actually makes me think Archetype is more likely town.
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Vote:Faust . It sucks that we have this stuff to analyze, but I feel that he jumped really quickly on the "A Town member made a slip! Modkill him, now!" Perhaps he didn't realize that it would end the day rather than putting us into MYLO, but that's how I immediately read it. It doesn't make sense for a town member to be jumping so quickly to "HEY NOW WE HAVE TO MODKILL THIS GUY!!!!!"
This is ridiculous. I said what I said because there was a rules violation, nothing else. Painting me scummy for that is really not fair. If you think I'm scum go ahead and make a case against me, but don't just take the easy way and vote for me based on a "scumslip" argument.
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Scum to town:
Faust
Robz
PPS
Archetype
Scott
Ahoppy
Everyone should make one of these lists.
Everyone should not only make one of these lists, but also give actual reasons for the placement of the players on the list.
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Also I do think it's safest to unvote!
That is right. I hadn't even completely realized that TA voted with a reason of little substance at MyLo!
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Scum only votes for town if they need to. If archetype and ahoppy are town, there's been no need to ever vote for town as mafia.
I am not saying this makes you obv scum but I am very confused at your call for town cred for this.
I am thoroughly confused by the entirety of this quote. I mean I really don't comprehend it at all.
You can play dumb or you can try to convince me you're town, your choice
I do not think this kind of posting leads us anywhere, and think you should try posting your thoughts in a civil manner.
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Okay, caught up. Now what's confusing me (and noone has really talked about this for some reason) is the Jimmmmm NK. Why Jimmmmm? The previous NK choices - Voltaire and yuma - seemed pretty straightforward, killing strong town players to hurt our progress. I would have expected Robz, TA or me to die tonight, as I felt we did most in terms of moving the game along (pps did also, but obviously, TA is a strictly superior kill for scum). Jimmmmm dying makes me think there's scum to be found among the active players.
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Updated data post:
D1 voting patterns:
Jimmmmm: Eevee(1,RVS), Archetype(1), Eevee(4), AHoppy(5), Teproc(7)
faust: yuma(1), pps(1), No Lynch(1), pps(2), No Lynch(3), Teproc(1), chairs(2), Teproc(2)
pingpongsam: Robz(1,RVS), AHoppy(3), Robz(3), AHoppy(5)
Voltaire: scott(1,RVS), chairs(1), pps(3), AHoppy(1), Archetype(1), AHoppy(4), Robz(2), Teproc(4)
yuma: faust(1), No Lynch(2), Robz(3), Eevee(3), AHoppy(6), Robz(1), Teproc(2), Teproc(6)
Archetype: nkirbit/Teproc(1,RVS), chairs(1), Eevee(2), Robz(4), Eevee(3), Teproc(6)
Eevee: TA(1), Teproc(3)
Twistedarcher: pps(2), yuma(1), Eevee(1)
Teproc: yuma(2), chairs(2), Jimmmmm(1), AHoppy(4)
scott_pilgrim: No Lynch(2), TA(3), AHoppy(5), Teproc(5)
AHoppy: Robz(2), chairs(2), Teproc(5)
chairs: TA(2), AHoppy(2), yuma(1), AHoppy(4)
Robz: chairs(1), Teproc(1), AHoppy(5)
AHoppy wagon at peak (1): chairs, scott, Teproc, yuma, Voltaire, pps (Robz intent)
Robz wagon at peak: yuma, Archetype, Voltaire, pps
AHoppy wagon at peak (2): Robz, chairs, scott, Teproc, pps
Teproc wagon at peak: faust, Eevee, Voltaire, scott_pilgrim, Archetype, AHoppy, yuma
Eevee wagon at peak: Twistedarcher, Archetype, yuma, Jimmmmm
D2 voting patterns:
Twistedarcher: Eevee(1)
Jimmmmm: Eevee(2), pps(1), Eevee(4)
Robz: yuma(1), pps(4), chairs(1), Eevee(5)
yuma: Robz(1), TA(1), Eevee(2)
Archetype: Eevee(3), scotty(1), pps(3), Eevee(3)
faust: Robz(2), AHoppy(1), pps(5), Archetype(2)
pingpongsam: Jimmmmm(1), AHoppy(1), faust(1), Archetype(3)
chairs: yuma(2), Archetype(4)
Eevee: Archetype(1), yuma(1), Archetype(1)
AHoppy: pps(2)
scott_pilgrim: Jimmmmm(2), pps(4), Eevee(6)
pps wagon at peak: Jimmmmm, AHoppy, Archetype, Robz, faust
Archetype wagon at peak: Eevee, faust, pps, chairs
Eevee wagon at peak: TA, yuma, Archetype, Jimmmmm, Robz, scott
D3 voting patterns:
Jimmmmm: Archetype(1)
faust: Archetype(2)
Twistedarcher: faust(1)
scott_pilgrim: pps(1)
chairs: pps(2)
Robz: pps(3)
pingpongsam: AHoppy(1)
pps wagon at peak: scott, chairs, Robz
# of times voted for confirmed town/# of total votes:
Twistedarcher: 3/5=60%
Robz: 5/8=63%
Archetype: 6/9=67%
faust: 4/11=36%
pps: 1/8=13%
AHoppy: 2/4=50%
scott: 3/7=43%
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Let me work some PoE here.
I do not think a scott/AHoppy/Archetype scumteam is possible. I don't think scum can do that good just by lurking. So, if I don't think that's possible, at least one scum has to be among Robz/pps/TA. Assume pps' claim is true, it has to be Robz. Then Robz was the one who wanted to hammer AHoppy D1, so I don't think they're scummates. The scumteam would then have to be scott/Archetype/Robz. If this is true, all of them would have been on the Eevee wagon together, which may be possible due to Archetype being the alternative. I have to reread these three to see if it's possible that they're scum together, and if it's not, pps has to be scum.
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TA, I would like you to claim.
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TA, I would like you to claim.
No.
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TA, I would like you to claim.
No.
Yes, I would.
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TA, I would like you to claim.
No.
Yes, I would.
Why? I'm not getting lynched today. What do you gain from me claiming when I'm not a viable candidate.
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I gain information. What do we gain from you not claiming?
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I gain information. What do we gain from you not claiming?
I'm sure you'd love to know whether your team needs to worry about me catching one of you.
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But yeah, I'm not claiming.
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Right then.
I'm a Cop.
If pps is telling the truth, the Doc/Cop split is 4/6. If there is any other Cop, they should come out immediately, because that would mean we caught scum.
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I gain information. What do we gain from you not claiming?
I'm sure you'd love to know whether your team needs to worry about me catching one of you.
Just why do you think I'm scum? Tell me!
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Scum only votes for town if they need to. If archetype and ahoppy are town, there's been no need to ever vote for town as mafia.
I am not saying this makes you obv scum but I am very confused at your call for town cred for this.
I simply don't agree with the first statement because it is entirely too absolute. To say scum only vote for Town when they need too suggests that they always bus vote when Town is doing the work for them, especially in this game when we rarely get to the end of the day with no one voting.
I sort of agree with the second statement but it falls apart when you try to conflate that statement with me being scum. If AHoppy and Archetype are town and I am Mafia then according to your statement I would never have voted for either of them because scum only votes for Town when they need to and well, Mafia hasn't needed to vote for Town if both of these guys are Town. Do you see how circular and contradictory what you are saying is, or am I really just missing the point entirely?
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Right then.
I'm a Cop.
If pps is telling the truth, the Doc/Cop split is 4/6. If there is any other Cop, they should come out immediately, because that would mean we caught scum.
I am a Cop.
So this means it's either you or PPS, right (or both)? vote: PPS
I don't think faust would put himself in this position if he were scum. I mean maybe it could be a bold move, assuming that no one else thinks he would do it, but that seems unlikely.
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So, scott claimed as well. My initial response is that he is likely town, because that would be a pretty strong move to pull off for a newbie, but I'm cautious here. If scott is scum, there was enough time for his scummates to coach him. It's time for an extensive reread of pps and scott (well, and I guess you guys should reread me).
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Starting my reread with scott, because hey, that's probably less work.
- starts with theory discussion, supports the "Cops with results claim" plan pretty early. Fits with his claim.
- votes for no lynch early. If, as it seems, he is a night 4/5 Cop, that makes sense. Gives higher chances to live until your investigation.
- early read: scum is among PPS/TA/yuma
- then votes AHoppy (over Eevee), and later sheeps the case on Teproc
- on day two, he addresses the yuma/Robz situation, and asks yuma a couple of questions. His first really strong player interaction. Note that this has given yuma a town read
- then has a post with a townie feel (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9946.msg338949#msg338949)
- TA disagrees with the sentiment that scotty is townie
- asks "did we agree that Cops only claim with scum results?", which fits a Cop narrative.
- goes for the pingpongsam wagon
- TA suggests "multiple scum in Eevee/AHoppy/Archetype/scott" if yuma is town (which he is) (btw, where did that go?)
- defends his pps vote quite strongly
- hammers Eevee. How about that.
- on D3, he still wants to lynch pps
- today, he was against mass claim because we might not get Cop results
And that's pretty much it. Not many strong interactions, but overall rather townie. I also think that if he's scum, his partners might have wanted to try to build a wagon on him, and that never happened. Right now I'm strongly thinking that pps is the one who's lying (although there's a non-zero chance that both are).
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While I'm off rereading pps, I'd like everyone to reminiscence this post, and compare it to TA's current reads:
I feel like, IF Yuma is town, I have a kind of good idea as to who scum is, or at least the general area in which scum is lying.
If Yuma is scum, I have no clue.
Okay, who?
Multiple scum in Eevee/Ahoppy/Archetype/Scott , I think
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While I'm off rereading pps, I'd like everyone to reminiscence this post, and compare it to TA's current reads:
I feel like, IF Yuma is town, I have a kind of good idea as to who scum is, or at least the general area in which scum is lying.
If Yuma is scum, I have no clue.
Okay, who?
Multiple scum in Eevee/Ahoppy/Archetype/Scott , I think
Reads change with more information, ya know.
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My initial thoughts on Faust/Scott claims: Smells strongly like a setup to me.
I'm saying this because I don't think Faust's actions make sense from the perspective of a town cop. Given that he hasn't claimed results, I'm assuming he's either a N4 or N5 cop. That means, he has a really, really important investigation up his sleeve. Given that we need 3 correct lynches to win, if I'm really in that position, I am definitely going to want to hold my investigation, rather than claiming to potentially catch PPS in a lie.
The action of claiming to "catch" someone fits more in a narrative of getting 1 mislynch rather than getting 3 correct lynches. He's putting everything out there to "catch scum" today, while I think a town cop would not want to claim without an investigation. It just doesn't make sense wasting one investigation to "maybe" catch one person.
It also seemed like he knew another claim was coming. If he's town, he has NO idea that Scott would be a cop, and if there's no cop left, the move is awful -- either you've outed yourself for no gain, or the claim is ripe for scum manipulation. What if Faust and PPS are both town? Damn right a scum is going to counterclaim cop, and try to get either Faust or PPS lynch. The action just doesn't make sense for a town cop, who I think would be way more worried about scum manipulation.
Thing is, though, Faust seemed to know that Scott's claim was coming. I don't know if this is because Scott's his partner or because Faust knew there was 1 unclaimed cop out there, but regardless, Faust knew he was not going to be the last person to claim cop. To me, this smells like a setup of PPS.
I'm happy with my vote on Faust.
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I gain information. What do we gain from you not claiming?
I'm sure you'd love to know whether your team needs to worry about me catching one of you.
Just why do you think I'm scum? Tell me!
After Yuma's flip, I figured I really needed to redirect my reads, and your constant attempts to discredit me have been a huge red flag.
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pingpongsam's reread:
- attacks me harshly at the beginning of D1 for advocating a mass claim
- then, this post, which might qualify as scumslip
- much theory talk to follow
- then gives a scummy post (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9946.msg335944#msg335944) about how scum is controlling D1
- goes off to make a case on TA, and comes back having a town read on him. Something looks like pps/TA planning pps' claim already, and pps is setting him up as a reasonable investigation target
- his "conspiracy theory" (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9946.msg336249#msg336249) post follows and leads me further into believing in a TA/pps setup.
- the soft claims Cop (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9946.msg336277#msg336277). Why?
- says TA is his favorite investigation target (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9946.msg336364#msg336364).
- wants to lynch Robz or AHoppy. (Not willing to lynch TA)
Well, that's D1 for you. I'm taking a break from this before looking at the other Days, but just from this I already smell a pps/TA/x scumteam.
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Faust, your second point doesn't have a link -- what post are you referring to?
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My initial thoughts on Faust/Scott claims: Smells strongly like a setup to me.
I'm saying this because I don't think Faust's actions make sense from the perspective of a town cop. Given that he hasn't claimed results, I'm assuming he's either a N4 or N5 cop. That means, he has a really, really important investigation up his sleeve. Given that we need 3 correct lynches to win, if I'm really in that position, I am definitely going to want to hold my investigation, rather than claiming to potentially catch PPS in a lie.
There's no need to assume I'm a N4 or N5 cop, you know.
The action of claiming to "catch" someone fits more in a narrative of getting 1 mislynch rather than getting 3 correct lynches. He's putting everything out there to "catch scum" today, while I think a town cop would not want to claim without an investigation. It just doesn't make sense wasting one investigation to "maybe" catch one person.
Of course I am willing to put everything out there to catch scum. We're at MyLo, remember? If we mislynch, it's over. So today it is most important to throw everything out there to catch scum! If we do hit scum today, tomorrow we can look for interactions and find scum that way.
It also seemed like he knew another claim was coming. If he's town, he has NO idea that Scott would be a cop, and if there's no cop left, the move is awful -- either you've outed yourself for no gain, or the claim is ripe for scum manipulation. What if Faust and PPS are both town? Damn right a scum is going to counterclaim cop, and try to get either Faust or PPS lynch. The action just doesn't make sense for a town cop, who I think would be way more worried about scum manipulation.
Yes, I'm worried about scum manipulation, which is exactly why I wanted to by all means find out if pps was scum manipulating us. What the problem with Cops being outed at this point? And I didn't "know" there was a claim coming, what makes you say that?
Thing is, though, Faust seemed to know that Scott's claim was coming. I don't know if this is because Scott's his partner or because Faust knew there was 1 unclaimed cop out there, but regardless, Faust knew he was not going to be the last person to claim cop. To me, this smells like a setup of PPS.
I'm happy with my vote on Faust.
I didn't know. How did you even jump to that conclusion.
Let me add that it feels really weird to have a semi-IC push for a lynch like that. That's not at all how someone in your position should play the game, if you are truly town.
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If you have a result, you should claim it, now.
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Faust, your second point doesn't have a link -- what post are you referring to?
Ahh, sorry, I thought I had something, but it turns out it was nothing, and I didn't delete everything.
For completeness' sake, this (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9946.msg334532#msg334532) was the post I was referring to. On my first read, it seemed like pps knew there were only 4 Docs, but it was just that I couldn't count.
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If you have a result, you should claim it, now.
What if I have a result on someone who's dead?
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If you have a result, you should claim it, now.
What if I have a result on someone who's dead?
Then claim it. You're already outed as a cop if youre really town, so it doesn't matter at that point.
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If you have a result, you should claim it, now.
What if I have a result on someone who's dead?
Then claim it. You're already outed as a cop if youre really town, so it doesn't matter at that point.
Rolefishing much? Of course it matters for scum to know if I still have an investigation left or not, and it gives no benefit to town at all.
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My initial thoughts on Faust/Scott claims: Smells strongly like a setup to me.
I'm saying this because I don't think Faust's actions make sense from the perspective of a town cop. Given that he hasn't claimed results, I'm assuming he's either a N4 or N5 cop. That means, he has a really, really important investigation up his sleeve. Given that we need 3 correct lynches to win, if I'm really in that position, I am definitely going to want to hold my investigation, rather than claiming to potentially catch PPS in a lie.
The action of claiming to "catch" someone fits more in a narrative of getting 1 mislynch rather than getting 3 correct lynches. He's putting everything out there to "catch scum" today, while I think a town cop would not want to claim without an investigation. It just doesn't make sense wasting one investigation to "maybe" catch one person.
It also seemed like he knew another claim was coming. If he's town, he has NO idea that Scott would be a cop, and if there's no cop left, the move is awful -- either you've outed yourself for no gain, or the claim is ripe for scum manipulation. What if Faust and PPS are both town? Damn right a scum is going to counterclaim cop, and try to get either Faust or PPS lynch. The action just doesn't make sense for a town cop, who I think would be way more worried about scum manipulation.
Thing is, though, Faust seemed to know that Scott's claim was coming. I don't know if this is because Scott's his partner or because Faust knew there was 1 unclaimed cop out there, but regardless, Faust knew he was not going to be the last person to claim cop. To me, this smells like a setup of PPS.
I'm happy with my vote on Faust.
Damn it. That's actually pretty good analysis.
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I say damn it, because it cuts against my strong town read on faust.
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I will note that scotty is the one person still alive who has received the least suspicion. That tends to be incriminating, but he's stayed so quiet that maybe it's a natural thing in his case.
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I will note that scotty is the one person still alive who has received the least suspicion. That tends to be incriminating, but he's stayed so quiet that maybe it's a natural thing in his case.
Plus I think there's a newbie factor
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If you have a result, you should claim it, now.
What if I have a result on someone who's dead?
Then claim it. You're already outed as a cop if youre really town, so it doesn't matter at that point.
Rolefishing much? Of course it matters for scum to know if I still have an investigation left or not, and it gives no benefit to town at all.
Dude, you already claimed.
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Dude, you already claimed.
*sigh* I did not full claim.
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TA, if I'm scum, who are my partners?
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TA, if I'm scum, who are my partners?
Scotty seems like a logical partner for you based n what just happened. And then either Archetype or Ahoppy? Does that fit?
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Dude, you already claimed.
*sigh* I did not full claim.
You claimed cop.
If you are town, scum will want to shoot you. Withholding your result will not matter.
If you are scum, withholding your result will allow you the flexibility to claim.
You cannot claim cop, and then accuse me of rolefishing when I want you to claim your result. That's just absurd.
If you are scum, I don't think PPS is your partner, I still think Ahoppy is town, so two of Arch/Scott/Robz, I guess. I'm not sure exactly. I came in thinking PPS/Faust/Robz but I don't think that makes sense, given recent actions.
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Scott/Arch would make sense given Scott's reluctance to move to Archetype at the end of D2.
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Going the other way is PPS/TA/X, where X is not faust, or scotty (because scotty's claim is bad for him and PPS if they are both scum).
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Scott/Arch would make sense given Scott's reluctance to move to Archetype at the end of D2.
I don't remember that at all. Can you reference? I probably shouldn't take your word for it, sorry.
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Scott/Arch would make sense given Scott's reluctance to move to Archetype at the end of D2.
Your jumping around with your reads is insane.
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Yeah, that too. Meh.
Scott, if I were to switch to arch, would you follow?
Probably not, but I'd think about it.
This is what I'm referring to, with the addendum that of course this isn't damning and I don't know where it falls within the context of Scott's reads on Arch, but I do remember it and it's the interaction i'd expect if they were partners.
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Scott/Arch would make sense given Scott's reluctance to move to Archetype at the end of D2.
Your jumping around with your reads is insane.
You're right, I should stick to my reads even with new information.
Hey look, another post by Faust trying to discredit me. That's new!
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Yeah, that too. Meh.
Scott, if I were to switch to arch, would you follow?
Probably not, but I'd think about it.
This is what I'm referring to, with the addendum that of course this isn't damning and I don't know where it falls within the context of Scott's reads on Arch, but I do remember it and it's the interaction i'd expect if they were partners.
Yep, agreed.
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If you are town, scum will want to shoot you. Withholding your result will not matter.
And why exactly does scum want to shoot me if I've already used up my night action?
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Scott/Arch would make sense given Scott's reluctance to move to Archetype at the end of D2.
Your jumping around with your reads is insane.
It's not scummy, this is the part of the game where we figure things out, and in every game where I've figured it out it's been because I jumped around with my reads in rapid succession til it made sense.
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Scott/Arch would make sense given Scott's reluctance to move to Archetype at the end of D2.
Your jumping around with your reads is insane.
You're right, I should stick to my reads even with new information.
Hey look, another post by Faust trying to discredit me. That's new!
It's just interesting how you leave your scum read on Robz exactly at the point where you feel you might be able to persuade him to mislynch me.
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If you are going to claim under the guise of putting everything out there to catch scum NOW, refusing your information when it would potentially help town is mystifying. it's almost like you're scum wanting to keep fakeclaiming flexibility for later.
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Scott/Arch would make sense given Scott's reluctance to move to Archetype at the end of D2.
Your jumping around with your reads is insane.
You're right, I should stick to my reads even with new information.
Hey look, another post by Faust trying to discredit me. That's new!
It's just interesting how you leave your scum read on Robz exactly at the point where you feel you might be able to persuade him to mislynch me.
I still have a scum read on Robz, you know.
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If you are going to claim under the guise of putting everything out there to catch scum NOW, refusing your information when it would potentially help town is mystifying. it's almost like you're scum wanting to keep fakeclaiming flexibility for later.
How is it going to help catch scum if I claim having targeted a dead player? HOW?
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Both scott and TA should unvote for now. This is not the situation where we wanted scum to be able to get some sort of quickhammer in. This day will still last for a long time. Especially if you, TA; admit to being jumpy with your reads, why are they strong enough to vote for me?
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I do agree with that, no one should be voting.
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I will full claim at the request of at least four players, not below.
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You shouldn't full claim if:
-- You have no useful result (i.e., your result was on someone already dead)
-- Your night hasn't come yet
You SHOULD full claim if:
-- You have a scum result, obviously
You should MAYBE full claim, it's debatable, if:
-- You have a town result on someone still alive
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Dude, you already claimed.
*sigh* I did not full claim.
If you are town, scum will want to shoot you. Withholding your result will not matter.
What? If faust is town and he announces that N3 he investigated someone who is now dead, then scum knows to NK me (or even try to lynch me), since I may or may not have an investigation left, while faust definitely does not. In that case we literally have no cops left, no matter what. Faust should not tell us whether he has or has not investigated someone who is now dead, that would bad for me (and town as a whole). Likewise, I am not going to say whether I already investigated someone who is now dead, or if I am a future cop, for the benefit of faust/PPS (assuming at least one of them is town, which may or may not be the case, but it doesn't benefit them if their both scum). I will go ahead and say that I have not investigated someone who is still alive, though that should have been assumed anyway since I claimed cop but did not give a result.
I guess I'm just not at all convinced that we gain anything whatsoever from faust claiming with an investigation on someone who is now dead. If he's scum he could say that, or he could say he's N4/N5/N6 cop, he can literally just ask an RNG to tell him what to say to us.
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Both scott and TA should unvote for now. This is not the situation where we wanted scum to be able to get some sort of quickhammer in. This day will still last for a long time. Especially if you, TA; admit to being jumpy with your reads, why are they strong enough to vote for me?
You're right, unvote
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You shouldn't full claim if:
-- You have no useful result (i.e., your result was on someone already dead)
-- Your night hasn't come yet
You SHOULD full claim if:
-- You have a scum result, obviously
You should MAYBE full claim, it's debatable, if:
-- You have a town result on someone still alive
Yes, I agree with this. Except the last one I think you should probably claim, I can't see any cases where you wouldn't claim with a town result at this point.
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Yeah.... I think I agree...
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Both Scotty and Faust: claim
I have some thoughts, but I'll wait for them to claim.
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Both Scotty and Faust: claim
I have some thoughts, but I'll wait for them to claim.
I have not targeted any player who is still alive. Is this enough for you?
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There is a liar between faust and scotty. Unvote
An interesting thing missing from faust's analysis on scotty is the fact that scotty consistently ends up on dead townie's wagons.
I'm interested to hear roles claimed by every player left in the game at this point.
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Both Scotty and Faust: claim
I have some thoughts, but I'll wait for them to claim.
I have not targeted any player who is still alive. Is this enough for you?
No, I think we need a full-on claim from both. But Scotty needs to go first.
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I'm interested to hear roles claimed by every player left in the game at this point.
What do you hope to get from this? Everyone left will claim Doc. (Except there if there is still a Cop out there, and both you and scott are lying. But I doubt scott would have claimed if that were the case)
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Both Scotty and Faust: claim
I have some thoughts, but I'll wait for them to claim.
I have not targeted any player who is still alive. Is this enough for you?
No, I think we need a full-on claim from both. But Scotty needs to go first.
I oppose this, and don't see any reason why this would be good. Especially considering that you claimed N1 Doc.
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Both Scotty and Faust: claim
I have some thoughts, but I'll wait for them to claim.
I have not targeted any player who is still alive. Is this enough for you?
No, I think we need a full-on claim from both. But Scotty needs to go first.
I oppose this, and don't see any reason why this would be good. Especially considering that you claimed N1 Doc.
Why would it be bad?
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i think given Faust's and Scott's claims, we probably do want to massclaim role...
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Both Scotty and Faust: claim
I have some thoughts, but I'll wait for them to claim.
I have not targeted any player who is still alive. Is this enough for you?
No, I think we need a full-on claim from both. But Scotty needs to go first.
I oppose this, and don't see any reason why this would be good. Especially considering that you claimed N1 Doc.
Why would it be bad?
Why would it be good? It basically guarantees no more cop results. I literally cannot think of a benefit to this. Scum just RNG's whether to claim N4, N5, or N6 (or already investigated now-dead), and they find out who to kill when.
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I think the point is, if the scum are playing intelligently, everyone other than faust and scotty is claiming Doctor. So we are not really hurt by massclaim.
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I mean, by all means if you there's another Cop, step forward. Otherwise you're pretty much claiming Doctor by default, yes?
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Yeah, I want to know if there is someone else who is going to claim Cop because I think it is possible Scott and Faust are both lying.
There is no reason to not have full role claims from all players at this point.
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Both Scotty and Faust: claim
I have some thoughts, but I'll wait for them to claim.
I have not targeted any player who is still alive. Is this enough for you?
No, I think we need a full-on claim from both. But Scotty needs to go first.
I oppose this, and don't see any reason why this would be good. Especially considering that you claimed N1 Doc.
Why would it be bad?
Why would it be good? It basically guarantees no more cop results. I literally cannot think of a benefit to this. Scum just RNG's whether to claim N4, N5, or N6 (or already investigated now-dead), and they find out who to kill when.
N6 isn't an option.
Does this make Scotty more likely Town or Scum? I lean scum.
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N6 isn't an option.
Does this make Scotty more likely Town or Scum? I lean scum.
Why? I think it makes him more likely town, because scum would have discussed our roles in detail in their QT.
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What? I don't understand, Night 6 doctor is possible.
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It says it in the op, I just checked.
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No, it doesn't nevermind, I read that wrong.
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Both Scotty and Faust: claim
I have some thoughts, but I'll wait for them to claim.
I have not targeted any player who is still alive. Is this enough for you?
No, I think we need a full-on claim from both. But Scotty needs to go first.
I oppose this, and don't see any reason why this would be good. Especially considering that you claimed N1 Doc.
Why would it be bad?
Why would it be good? It basically guarantees no more cop results. I literally cannot think of a benefit to this. Scum just RNG's whether to claim N4, N5, or N6 (or already investigated now-dead), and they find out who to kill when.
N6 isn't an option.
Does this make Scotty more likely Town or Scum? I lean scum.
For some reason I could have sworn the set-up picked randomly N1-N6. Anyway, it doesn't affect what I'm saying, they pick randomly among N4, N5, or already investigated someone who is now dead. I think I made the same mistake earlier too. I still want to hear why you think it would be a good idea for me and faust to claim night (or whether we investigated someone who is now dead, though faust already stated that he didn't do that (which I still don't think he should have done)).
Also, can you explain why my mis-remembering the set-up rules makes me scummier?
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Well, I am a Doctor, obviously.
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For some reason I could have sworn the set-up picked randomly N1-N6. Anyway, it doesn't affect what I'm saying, they pick randomly among N4, N5, or already investigated someone who is now dead. I think I made the same mistake earlier too. I still want to hear why you think it would be a good idea for me and faust to claim night (or whether we investigated someone who is now dead, though faust already stated that he didn't do that (which I still don't think he should have done)).
Also, can you explain why my mis-remembering the set-up rules makes me scummier?
Where did I do that?
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For some reason I could have sworn the set-up picked randomly N1-N6. Anyway, it doesn't affect what I'm saying, they pick randomly among N4, N5, or already investigated someone who is now dead. I think I made the same mistake earlier too. I still want to hear why you think it would be a good idea for me and faust to claim night (or whether we investigated someone who is now dead, though faust already stated that he didn't do that (which I still don't think he should have done)).
Also, can you explain why my mis-remembering the set-up rules makes me scummier?
Where did I do that?
Never mind, I miss read this:
I have not targeted any player who is still alive. Is this enough for you?
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Archetype, I'm interested in hearing your thoughts now, since neither scott nor I are going to claim anything else.
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Sorry I have kinda dropped off the grid, I'm catching up on D4. Life has still been insane. I'm having more work to do this semester than I ever have before (almost none of it to do with classes, funny right?) Anyways. My catching up thoughts
I agree with TA, I probably would not have jumped on chairs so quickly with the modkilling (in fact, I completely forgot about that rule). However, I don't think that means we need to suspect faust for it.
TA: As far as who I think scum is, all of my scummiest reads are now dead... which makes me more suspect of you and PPS being a team actually... other than that, I think faust is not scum, even though he kinda rubs me the wrong way, I think he's town. Archetype is probably my next place I'd look. Like everyone else, I've seen a lot that is scummy there, but I also saw that in another game and mislynched him. So I would probably out my top 3 (in order) as PPS, Archetype, TA. And you and PPS is mostly from POE.
So my list:
PPS
Archetype
TA (Reasons above)
(break)
Robz - Almost considered putting him up in the scum territory, so he's borderline. I don't know a whole lot about his play style, but knowing he is a strong player I would think he'd be leading more and pushing for his way as town. This laid-back play rubs (robz?) me the wrong way
faust - as noted above, don't always agree with his decisions, but I think he is vocal slightly belligerent town.
(break)
Scott - Don't forget early D1 his questions to yuma after he got called out for lurking basically confirmed him as newbie town
Me
I'm not really sure why you won't claim TA, scum isn't going to kill you tonight for fear of a doc still being out there and I'm not sure what extra info it would give scum. So either, I think you have a result you're holding onto, or you are scum not wanting to fakeclaim...
I agree with TA's narrative on faust's claim. It does feel fishy with both claims so quick back to back.
Also, faust is willing to put himself all out there without considering no-lynch. If we're at MYLO with cops remaining, we should totally no-lynch. I'm suprised nobody has suggested this thus far...
I'm going to say faust should full-claim. He's already said he's a cop and I think that it can't do harm knowing if he already investigated. If he hasn't investigated, his silence tells me that. So in a way (in my mind) he has full claimed either way.
Also: If PPS really was a N1 cop, and he has suspected me as being scum from the beginning, why did he not investigate me? I feel like after D1, I was a prime investigation target. Intent to vote PPS.
And I'm caught up. Kinda skimmed a bit there, but *hopefully* I'll be able to post more today than yesterday...
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Also, faust is willing to put himself all out there without considering no-lynch. If we're at MYLO with cops remaining, we should totally no-lynch. I'm suprised nobody has suggested this thus far...
If we No Lynch, and the scum kill is successful, town is end-gamed. No Lynching is tantamount to deciding that the Doctors (if there are Doctors with protective shots left) have a better chance of picking the scum night kill (1/6) then we do of lynching scum (3/6). So I don't see why we would No Lynch. That has to be more likely we lose, right?
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Also: If PPS really was a N1 cop, and he has suspected me as being scum from the beginning, why did he not investigate me? I feel like after D1, I was a prime investigation target. Intent to vote PPS.
And I'm caught up. Kinda skimmed a bit there, but *hopefully* I'll be able to post more today than yesterday...
On D1 your wagon was the better lynch to me. Note that TA stayed off either wagon entirely voting instead for Eevee who was a town read for me all along. The AHoppy vote on Teproc was arguably self-preservation as much Town as it was scum so the fact that AHoppy voted down Teproc D1 wasn't nearly enough to confirm him to be scum. The TA attitude towards me D1 set me off on an unrecoverable tangent without results on him and his lone vote on Eevee sealed the deal that I investigate him. My words that suggest I've been onto AHoppy all along doesn't mean I was super suspicious of him from D1 just that I interpreted the way D1 ended to indicate a strong possibility it was a near scum lynch and everything after that supports that he is likely scum. Really it was his distancing from my post-claim D2 wagon that looked almost sure to roll that led me to believe AHoppy was more than likely scum.
AHoppy, what is your role?
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Also, faust is willing to put himself all out there without considering no-lynch. If we're at MYLO with cops remaining, we should totally no-lynch. I'm suprised nobody has suggested this thus far...
If we No Lynch, and the scum kill is successful, town is end-gamed. No Lynching is tantamount to deciding that the Doctors (if there are Doctors with protective shots left) have a better chance of picking the scum night kill (1/6) then we do of lynching scum (3/6). So I don't see why we would No Lynch. That has to be more likely we lose, right?
Oh... I guess that makes sense. Never mind then. I never really got how the endgame worked. So this really isn't MYLO then, it's more LYLO...
And I'm a doc
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Not a whole lot happened here, and I thought what happened would be enough to spark discussion... oh well, I'll just continue my pps reread. Here's D2:
- leans scum on Robz and town on yuma after their fight, and reactswith a joke when Jimmmmm call a scumteam including him and TA
- starts thinking about an AHoppy lynch after I point out how weird it is that he wasn't lynched
- his theory (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9946.msg339019#msg339019) that either all scum were on AHoppy or all off seems really fishy
- fights with Jimmmmm, who we know to be town now (and who was killed last night!)
- after some exchange, he unvotes and says he is interested to hear Jimmmmm's case (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9946.msg339431#msg339431) on him
- agrees with me that we should lynch one of Robz, yuma, AHoppy
- Jimmmmm's case on pps (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9946.msg340459#msg340459)
- the Jimmmmm/pps fight continues thereafter, mostly Jimmmmm is attacking pps for thinking AHoppy is scum
- this post (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9946.msg340766#msg340766) looks like preparing his late claim
- TA's first reaction (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9946.msg340888#msg340888) to pps' claim looks very much like he knew it was coming
- pps think he has breadcrumbed this investigation very well. Exactly. And why would town do that, again?
- suddenly jumps me (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9946.msg341339#msg341339) when yuma points out some contradiction in my posts
- has a strong town read (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9946.msg341885#msg341885) out of nowhere on yuma (who is defending his claim). Some time before, he wanted to lynch yuma
- defends his breadcrumbing (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9946.msg342060#msg342060), basically saying he was not paying attention, which I find hard to believe
- votes Archetype to "see how the wagon builds", and never changes his vote until the end of the Day
And that's D2 for you. I think really a lot of scummy stuff happened there, but if someone can come up with a convincing town narrative... I know I'm already somewhat biased.
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Vote Count 4.1
faust (1): Twistedarcher
Not Voting (6): AHoppy, Robz888, Archetype, faust, scott_pilgrim, pingpongsam
With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.
Day 4 ends February 28th, 4:00 PM.
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Okay well this is weird. I don't think I've ever played in a game where people went like a whole day without posting anything while we were in MYLO. And this is not the first time everyone has just checked out during this game. We are suffering a serial lurking problem, and I think it's fair to ask: Why? Why such an uncharacteristically high amount of lurking.
My two propositions would be that scum has to be some imbalanced mix, like, either 1) All the lurkers are scum, and it's giving us less to talk about than usual, consequently we are quiet, or 2) Town are all lurkers, and thus are not picking it up on normally scummy things and commenting on them
So, if (1) were true, perhaps the scumteam is as easy as Ahoppy, Archetype, Scotty. If (2) were true, then PPS, TA, faust.
PPS, TA, faust is not a very likely scum team given certain events... or at least I think faust AND TA are not likely scum together. So I'm liking the other scenario better.
I mean, of course there's nothing to say that scum couldn't be, like, PPS, TA, Ahoppy, but then all the lurking is just some freak naturally occurring phenomena?
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On another note, TA has technically made it possible for scum to quick hammer, if it is the case that neither TA nor faust is scum.
So, either one of these things has to be true: (1) Either TA or faust is scum, (2) scum have no been all around at the same time to quickhammer, or are not confident that they could pull it off. This too would point to mafia lurkers.
So everything kind of points me to an Ahoppy or scotty lynch, basically.
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On another note, TA has technically made it possible for scum to quick hammer, if it is the case that neither TA nor faust is scum.
So, either one of these things has to be true: (1) Either TA or faust is scum, (2) scum have no been all around at the same time to quickhammer, or are not confident that they could pull it off. This too would point to mafia lurkers.
So everything kind of points me to an Ahoppy or scotty lynch, basically.
What makes you think it's #2 and not #1?
I know my personal lurkiness is due to the fact that I don't find mafia as much fun as I previously did, and am burned out on it -- not sure why it's happening to everyone this game, though.
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On another note, TA has technically made it possible for scum to quick hammer, if it is the case that neither TA nor faust is scum.
So, either one of these things has to be true: (1) Either TA or faust is scum, (2) scum have no been all around at the same time to quickhammer, or are not confident that they could pull it off. This too would point to mafia lurkers.
So everything kind of points me to an Ahoppy or scotty lynch, basically.
What makes you think it's #2 and not #1?
I know my personal lurkiness is due to the fact that I don't find mafia as much fun as I previously did, and am burned out on it -- not sure why it's happening to everyone this game, though.
Nothing, but even in scenario #1, there would be nothing to preclude 1 or 2 of the lurkers being scum alongside faust or you. Thus my conclusion.
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I've been thinking about TA's case on faust and I'm actually starting to think it makes a lot of sense. In fact, I could see both faust and PPS being scum. They know the cop/doc split is 5/5, faust claims cop so that the last cop (me) will claim, they know who to NK or set up for a mislynch, and they don't have to deal with anymore cops. And then faust can easily claim cop results on someone later, with no cops around to counterclaim. OTOH, faust has looks like he is planning to vote PPS, which I would not expect if they are scum buddies. Either way I still feel more confident in a PPS lynch today. I won't vote now but I can't see myself being convinced that PPS is town. Out of the three possibilities, (1) PPS is scum and faust is town, (2) PPS is town and faust is scum, and (3) both are scum, (2) seems by far the least likely.
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My case's conclusion is that Faust is scum setting up town PPS, scott.
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But I guess your point of view will lead to a different conclusion, given that I think you're much more likely Faust's partner than PPS is..
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TA, if you believe in a setup by scott and me, answer this:
The purpose of such a setup would obviously be to make this Day a decision between pps and me. If this is what scum!me would want to achieve, why would I not just claim a guilty result on pps? Why pull scott into this?
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Also TA, why are you still voting for me?
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I have stated my reads. There's no new information coming along that changes those reads. I am happy to post but it really feels like everyone has run out of questions for me to respond to. I've not seen any remaining player get anywhere near as much questioning and probing as I have. Thus, I don't feel there is much more that I can contribute to the game at this point. Without anyone else posting the only contributions I could make would be likely dead-ended theory like, "Why was Jimmmmm the NK target?"
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pps, I don't feel that you've stated your reads. The last I've heard from you was that there was a liar between me and scotty, but you never specified (I think) which one of us you think is lying.
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pps, I don't feel that you've stated your reads. The last I've heard from you was that there was a liar between me and scotty, but you never specified (I think) which one of us you think is lying.
You are correct that I have not reiterated my reads from D3.
Here they are, reiterated:
Refined Reads list:
Scummy:
AHoppy
Archetype
Scotty
Null to slight scum:
Robz
chairs
Null to slight town:
faust
Jimmmmm
confTown:
TA/pps
Like I said, nothing new has come along EXCEPT the fact that there must be a liar amongst (not necessarily between) faust and scotty. Looking at my reads list as it stands I suppose I would have to say scotty is the one I would vote between the two of you. I still prefer an AHoppy or Archetype lynch based on what I perceive a stronger likelihood of hitting scum.
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I've been thinking about TA's case on faust and I'm actually starting to think it makes a lot of sense. In fact, I could see both faust and PPS being scum. They know the cop/doc split is 5/5, faust claims cop so that the last cop (me) will claim, they know who to NK or set up for a mislynch, and they don't have to deal with anymore cops. And then faust can easily claim cop results on someone later, with no cops around to counterclaim. OTOH, faust has looks like he is planning to vote PPS, which I would not expect if they are scum buddies. Either way I still feel more confident in a PPS lynch today. I won't vote now but I can't see myself being convinced that PPS is town. Out of the three possibilities, (1) PPS is scum and faust is town, (2) PPS is town and faust is scum, and (3) both are scum, (2) seems by far the least likely.
Your post assumes that scum would make some long-term plans here to eliminate Cops. I don't think that's the case. Instead, they will try to end this game and win today. Every flipped scum only increases the likelihood for us to catch the rest of them.
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Like I said, nothing new has come along EXCEPT the fact that there must be a liar amongst (not necessarily between) faust and scotty. Looking at my reads list as it stands I suppose I would have to say scotty is the one I would vote between the two of you. I still prefer an AHoppy or Archetype lynch based on what I perceive a stronger likelihood of hitting scum.
What has come up is for me: a liar must be among you and scotty, for you: a liar must be between me and scotty.
For most of the rest, a liar must be among us three. You put remarkably little effort into convincing us that you're not the one who's lying. Instead, you try to distract from the whole situation.
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Like I said, nothing new has come along EXCEPT the fact that there must be a liar amongst (not necessarily between) faust and scotty. Looking at my reads list as it stands I suppose I would have to say scotty is the one I would vote between the two of you. I still prefer an AHoppy or Archetype lynch based on what I perceive a stronger likelihood of hitting scum.
What has come up is for me: a liar must be among you and scotty, for you: a liar must be between me and scotty.
For most of the rest, a liar must be among us three. You put remarkably little effort into convincing us that you're not the one who's lying. Instead, you try to distract from the whole situation.
Hmmm, I'm not entirely sure I follow. The goal for today is to hit scum. We ostensibly have a 50% chance of doing so if we flip a coin and lynch either you or scotty. Those are decent odds. If I follow my reads I would omit the coin and just vote scotty. But then, that means my reads have some statistical weight and if I am going to assign weight to my reads I feel there is an even better likelihood of hitting scum by lynching either AHoppy or Archetype.
I'm not exactly sure how it is I am supposed to convince anyone I am not lying. I suppose I could turn the same allegation over to you. What is your convincing argument for how it is we can know you are not lying? If you are who you say you are then protecting the information of which night you are cop is important. If you are scum then saying ti is best to not reveal what night you are is also important. It's a catch-22 all around. Also, IINM, it is possible that both you and scotty are lying about being cops; that our Doc ratio is in actuality higher. Thus, I believe it is disingenuous to try to force everyone's minds into choosing between you and scotty as if one of you must be Town. Of course, if that is the case, then it doesn't matter if we choose one over the other, the outcome is the same.
We know there are 3 scum, if as I believe AHoppy is one of those scum then I see a strong likelihood that scotty is also scum. Other than the claim conundrum I see very little to indicate faust is scum which in and off itself makes me wary but I lean towards high paranoia.
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On another note, TA has technically made it possible for scum to quick hammer, if it is the case that neither TA nor faust is scum.
So, either one of these things has to be true: (1) Either TA or faust is scum, (2) scum have no been all around at the same time to quickhammer, or are not confident that they could pull it off. This too would point to mafia lurkers.
So everything kind of points me to an Ahoppy or scotty lynch, basically.
For (2), it is enough that one of the remaining scum is a lurker. Pulling a quickhammer with three votes is extremely dangerous. TA just has to be online some time in between and unvote, and the scum team is caught. And why are dismissing (1)? (well, good that you think I'm not scum, I guess) Because of a day of lurking? I don't think that you can pull any conclusions about the scum team from that, like you did.
So basically, I don't see any convincing argument in this. Why should we lynch AHoppy/scotty? Instead, you're distracting from the TA/pps situation as well.
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In your next post, please everyone who hasn't done so already state who of (pps, scotty, me) you think is most likely scum.
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On another note, TA has technically made it possible for scum to quick hammer, if it is the case that neither TA nor faust is scum.
So, either one of these things has to be true: (1) Either TA or faust is scum, (2) scum have no been all around at the same time to quickhammer, or are not confident that they could pull it off. This too would point to mafia lurkers.
So everything kind of points me to an Ahoppy or scotty lynch, basically.
For (2), it is enough that one of the remaining scum is a lurker. Pulling a quickhammer with three votes is extremely dangerous. TA just has to be online some time in between and unvote, and the scum team is caught. And why are dismissing (1)? (well, good that you think I'm not scum, I guess) Because of a day of lurking? I don't think that you can pull any conclusions about the scum team from that, like you did.
So basically, I don't see any convincing argument in this. Why should we lynch AHoppy/scotty? Instead, you're distracting from the TA/pps situation as well.
I did not dismiss (1), I was only saying that even if we are in situation (1), there are still probably lurker scum.
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In your next post, please everyone who hasn't done so already state who of (pps, scotty, me) you think is most likely scum.
I really don't know, sorry. I really would have said it's not you, it's either PPS or scotty. Now I'm getting a bad feeling.
But again, if just 1 of PPS, scotty, and faust is scum, why are we looking here? When there wold have to be 2 scum among TA, Arch, Ahoppy, or Scotty? (And we can sort of omit TA).
I feel like everyone--unwittingly, purposefully?--is covering for the lurkers. And some of that mafia covering for lazy partners.
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And some of that is mafia covering for lazy partners.
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Like, is there anyone here who doesn't think at least 1 of Ahoppy, Scotty, and Arch are scum?
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My case's conclusion is that Faust is scum setting up town PPS, scott.
Well as I understood it your conclusion was really that faust is scum, either letting me (scum) fakeclaim, or getting the last town cop (me) to claim. Since I know it's not the former I'm looking at the latter case. Your more general point was that town faust is taking a very risky move by claiming at that time, which is what I was agreeing with.
Your post assumes that scum would make some long-term plans here to eliminate Cops. I don't think that's the case. Instead, they will try to end this game and win today. Every flipped scum only increases the likelihood for us to catch the rest of them.
You're probably right, though maybe they could still be setting up for a mislynch on a cop who claims. Though that probably does more harm than good (for you), since if people are going to lynch a claimed cop in that scenario, they would be more likely to hit scum than not (and more likely to hit scum than if they just lynched a random person).
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In your next post, please everyone who hasn't done so already state who of (pps, scotty, me) you think is most likely scum.
I really don't know, sorry. I really would have said it's not you, it's either PPS or scotty. Now I'm getting a bad feeling.
But again, if just 1 of PPS, scotty, and faust is scum, why are we looking here? When there wold have to be 2 scum among TA, Arch, Ahoppy, or Scotty? (And we can sort of omit TA).
I feel like everyone--unwittingly, purposefully?--is covering for the lurkers. And some of that mafia covering for lazy partners.
Because 1) it is entirely possible that both scotty and PPS are scum.
2) for me, it's either scotty or PPS that's scum (possibly even both), so that's a >50% chance of scum there.
And 3) I'm looking at two possible scum players here: pps and TA. If pps is scum, and I think he is, then likely TA is as well. In this case, looking at AHoppy, Archetype and you, there's only one scum among you. The better chances are with us.
Ultimately 4) lurkers are harder to catch. I feel that both PPS and I had lots of contributions, so forming a read on us shouldn't be too hard. With Arch/AHoppy/scotty, we just don't have that much to form reads on. But once one scum player has flipped, we might get the lurkers via interactions.
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Something that I'm considering: If PPS is town, which I am increasingly thinking due to Faust's actions, then scum really did not utilize their potential fakeclaiming potential. There's today to try to trap PPS, but other than that, there were no fakeclaims before D4, which I would have expected. (To be fair, they may have been coming D3 before it was cut short). I think it's more likely a lurker filled, or lurker majority team that would have no fakeclaims early.
If Robz is town, I think the most likely team is Faust/Scott/Arch. This also makes sense with Faust not wanting to lynch in Scott/ARch/Ahoppy, since 2/3 would be his partner. If Robz is scum, Faust/Robz/X, I'm not sure who the most likely third would be.
Faust, I am still voting you because you are scum, why are you worried about getting quickhammered when it's clearly not going to happen? I am not waiting 10 more days or however long these deadlines are to vote. I do not want this to go to deadline again, absolutely not.
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If PPS is scum, that means that Faust is town almost certainly. I don't know who makes sense as PPS' partners, probably Robz, and one of the lurkers, I'm not not sure which.
Today's actions pretty clearly mean to me they can't be scum together -- added in with Faust's push D2 post-claim, I am pretty confident they are not both scum. I also doubt they're both town, but if they are both town, that would be Scott + 2 of Arch/Ahoppy/Robz.
I got a towny read from Arch's doc claim but I am just not sure about this. I am only sure on Faust almost certainly being scum.
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Faust, I am still voting you because you are scum, why are you worried about getting quickhammered when it's clearly not going to happen? I am not waiting 10 more days or however long these deadlines are to vote. I do not want this to go to deadline again, absolutely not.
How can you possibly be so sure?
You're clearly going to the extreme here, something I have already witnessed as your scum partner in M31.
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Prod requested on Archetype
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Faust, I am still voting you because you are scum, why are you worried about getting quickhammered when it's clearly not going to happen? I am not waiting 10 more days or however long these deadlines are to vote. I do not want this to go to deadline again, absolutely not.
How can you possibly be so sure?
You're clearly going to the extreme here, something I have already witnessed as your scum partner in M31.
Where did I exhibit this behavior in M31? Are you saying that me being confident in my reads and pushing them hard is an exclusively scum behavior for me?
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Prod requested on Archetype
Prod sent.
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Where did I exhibit this behavior in M31? Are you saying that me being confident in my reads and pushing them hard is an exclusively scum behavior for me?
I thought you aid so yourself somewhere in the mafia QT, though I can't find it right now. And I'm not sure how confident you are in your reads as town, I think the only game I played with you where you were town was NMIV, and there we lynched you D1, so no time for big reads.
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I'm used to TA as a premiere townie with very good reads and a high level of participation and leadership.
That's not what I'm getting this game, but I don't feel like he's super similar to his Modern Community self, either.
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Here. Don't want to be modkilled and cost us the game!
We have 10 days- I'll update Super Mario Mafia then check back here.
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This was still missing, so I'm going to finish my pps reread. These are D3 and D4:
- says that the only people he wouldn't lynch are himself and TA
- then has scott and me as is top scum reads, while earlier stating that some of my actions seem townie
- he doesn't have a strong case on me
- defends Jimmmmm, who dies the following night
- after a reread, he has me a light town read and suspects the lurker trio Arch/AHoppy/scotty
- votes AHoppy without making a case on him, stating this is "mostly PoE"
D4
- states that he is more confident in his reads because Jimmmmm died, and that his read have been "spot on" this game
...nothing more really, then there's already me and scott claiming.
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Here. Don't want to be modkilled and cost us the game!
This seems kind of fake to me.
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The complete case on pingpongsam.
1) The claim.
He drops hints that are impossible to overlook D1 that he is a Cop and wants to target TA. He survives N1. Then for a long time, he does not claim anything, and a wagon builds on him, which is the only wagon on that Day so far. I point out that I'm assuming no Cop claims that Day, because it is already late in the Day. Following that, PPS claims. The reason he gives is that he wanted to give credence to TA and people to discuss his scum read on Eevee. Also he saw what I said and thought he should claim. This seems just a strange reason to claim. If you're a town Cop, claim when it seems best to you, not when other townies think you should claim. It feels like he was willing to wait until L-1, but then got scared that if he did, we wouldn't believe him anymore. And the whole TA thing - I think if you're holding back your investigation results, it is to hear other player's reads on your target first. But PPS never enforced that. Lastly, when it is pointed out that he shouldn't have breadcrumbed, he says he was just being "sincere" and then realized this was bad. Well, I expect better play from town!PPS.
2) The "good" voting pattern
I stated D3 that it is notable that PPS has yet to vote for a confirmed townie, stating this makes him more likely town. PPS follows this by giving me a town read and sheeping my scum reads on AHoppy and Archetype. He also states a conviction that Jimmmm is town. Guess what? Jimmmmm dies the following night, and PPS comments this by stating "well, my reads are spot on" and voting AHoppy at MyLo. Not concerned that scum is just messing with you, trying to exploit your thinking that you have good reads?
3) Town reads on players who have town reads on him
This is only a minor point, but at least twice in the game, he has given town reads to players shortly after they stated that they think he is town. This happened with yuma D2 and with me D3. Looks like buddying.
4) Does not give good reasons for his vote
He is after AHoppy since D2, but never really laid out what makes him think that he is scum. On D2, he reasoned with the wagon on AHoppy. On D3, he said it was a PoE thing. On D4, he states that he is confident enough in his reads to vote AHoppy.
5) Jimmmmm's death
The mafia played pretty straightforward with their night kills, I think. N1, they killed Voltaire, N2, they killed yuma. Both players with traditionally good reads who were pushing the game along. The main forces pushing the game along D3 were Robz, PPS and me, I think. Why kill Jimmmmm? They must have thought this is in some way of benefit to them. And who used Jimmmmm's flip to support his argument? Right...
6) The scumminess of TA
This probably deserves a post on his own. TA is in my eyes not acting like the quasi-IC he claims to be. As IC, you know your reads are probably worse than those of everyone else, so you listen to other players, ask questions, and try to push the game along, only throwing in your opinion when needed. This is not what I saw TA do. Instead, he fervently pushes a case on me - a townie and claimed Cop - even going so far as leaving me to be quickhammered by scum. And if TA is scum, obviously, so has to be PPS.
7) Cop distribution and scotty's townieness
The obvious thing last. There has to be a liar among the claimed Cops. It's not me. scotty I see as a townie player, and if you don't - he's still a newbie. Do you think he would pull this kind of genius fakeclaim just like that? I don't. So by PoE, PPS has to be the scum.
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The complete case on pingpongsam.
1) The claim.
He drops hints that are impossible to overlook D1 that he is a Cop and wants to target TA. He survives N1. Then for a long time, he does not claim anything, and a wagon builds on him, which is the only wagon on that Day so far. I point out that I'm assuming no Cop claims that Day, because it is already late in the Day. Following that, PPS claims. The reason he gives is that he wanted to give credence to TA and people to discuss his scum read on Eevee. Also he saw what I said and thought he should claim. This seems just a strange reason to claim. If you're a town Cop, claim when it seems best to you, not when other townies think you should claim. It feels like he was willing to wait until L-1, but then got scared that if he did, we wouldn't believe him anymore. And the whole TA thing - I think if you're holding back your investigation results, it is to hear other player's reads on your target first. But PPS never enforced that. Lastly, when it is pointed out that he shouldn't have breadcrumbed, he says he was just being "sincere" and then realized this was bad. Well, I expect better play from town!PPS.
2) The "good" voting pattern
I stated D3 that it is notable that PPS has yet to vote for a confirmed townie, stating this makes him more likely town. PPS follows this by giving me a town read and sheeping my scum reads on AHoppy and Archetype. He also states a conviction that Jimmmm is town. Guess what? Jimmmmm dies the following night, and PPS comments this by stating "well, my reads are spot on" and voting AHoppy at MyLo. Not concerned that scum is just messing with you, trying to exploit your thinking that you have good reads?
3) Town reads on players who have town reads on him
This is only a minor point, but at least twice in the game, he has given town reads to players shortly after they stated that they think he is town. This happened with yuma D2 and with me D3. Looks like buddying.
4) Does not give good reasons for his vote
He is after AHoppy since D2, but never really laid out what makes him think that he is scum. On D2, he reasoned with the wagon on AHoppy. On D3, he said it was a PoE thing. On D4, he states that he is confident enough in his reads to vote AHoppy.
5) Jimmmmm's death
The mafia played pretty straightforward with their night kills, I think. N1, they killed Voltaire, N2, they killed yuma. Both players with traditionally good reads who were pushing the game along. The main forces pushing the game along D3 were Robz, PPS and me, I think. Why kill Jimmmmm? They must have thought this is in some way of benefit to them. And who used Jimmmmm's flip to support his argument? Right...
6) The scumminess of TA
This probably deserves a post on his own. TA is in my eyes not acting like the quasi-IC he claims to be. As IC, you know your reads are probably worse than those of everyone else, so you listen to other players, ask questions, and try to push the game along, only throwing in your opinion when needed. This is not what I saw TA do. Instead, he fervently pushes a case on me - a townie and claimed Cop - even going so far as leaving me to be quickhammered by scum. And if TA is scum, obviously, so has to be PPS.
7) Cop distribution and scotty's townieness
The obvious thing last. There has to be a liar among the claimed Cops. It's not me. scotty I see as a townie player, and if you don't - he's still a newbie. Do you think he would pull this kind of genius fakeclaim just like that? I don't. So by PoE, PPS has to be the scum.
1) Not claiming while a wagon built on me D2 was an effort to see who was going to try to lynch me before the claim leaked. The more votes the better. What kind of idiocy is it to expect to not be believed when I flipped? I had every expectation that I would get lynched post-claim. I believe the only reason I was not lynched or NK'd is because scum wanted to retain the ambiguity of that situation so they could leverage later in the game for an easy MYLO lynch just like right now. You say that a hold out on results should be to get the reads against my target but there was no attention being paid to TA even has he tried to get anyone at all to look at his admittedly shitty case on Eevee. I felt there was sufficient votes having had been placed on me to get a look at who was willing to kill a Townie that my flip would be beneficial.
2) The Jimmmmm NK was a forced flip to paint me for the easy lynch today. I read him as likely Town because the only interaction that I found scummy was his D1 interplay with TA who I later confirmed Town. His grilling of me D2 pushed my general buttons related to thinking scum pushes cases on me but I tempered it with the fact that I know Jimmmmm to be just as relentless when Town and my TA results allowed me to see him as a likely Town operative.
3) Yeah, minor point it is. We are obviously not buddying. Yuma made some extremely cogent points about my play being consistent with zero support from me. I'm not entirely sure where I stated town reads on him. IIRC, I maintained that out of the Robz/yuma tiff I would have selected Robz more likely to be scum not that yuma was somehow obtvtown. In fact, I would say throughout this game, with the exception of maybe Jimmmmm, I've not espoused any strong Town reads on anyone but have consistently juxtaposed my strong scum reads against those who I had no scum case on which is much unlike espousing a Town read on anyone.
4) D1 AHoppy began as a the better lynch thing and coalesced into wow this looks like maybe scum narrowly dodged a lynch. If you disagree, fine, but your disagreement does not equate to bad analysis. That the AHoppy thing has gotten zero traction all the way to D4 is a PoE thing. Everyone has cast some suspicion on him but at no point has he approached the D1 crescendo, why is that?
5) See #2. Who is leveraging the Jimmmmm flip for the PPS lynch today, right, intent to vote faust, there's your buddying argument shot to hell for you.
6) If you have a case on TA why are you pushing the PPS thing? Because the likelihood of scum!pps having fakeclaimed on a Townie is statistically higher than scum!pps fakeclaiming on a partner. You are 100% correct that if TA is scum so must be PPS. However, the inverse doesn't necessarily hold true. This is exactly why I was spared post-claim D2 and have not been NK'd and why the sudden interest in PSS in MYLO.
7. There must be at least 1 liar, why not 2? Scumpair of faust/scotty with faust coaching scotty perfectly explains the "genius" angle and the positioning of both of them against me today with the continued pressures they have both maintained on me throughout the game.
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Responing to pps:
1) Obviously, I meant you were afraid of being lynched, not of not being believed after your lynch. Yes, there was no attention being paid to TA, you could have changed that! But you didn't. The last point I don't understand. You seem to imply that your claim there has somehow made you obvtown, so we can see who's voting for the townie. Well, here's news for you - you're not obvtown. So that reasoning doesn't work.
2) How does Jimmmmm's flip help painting you scummy? It would seem to me that keeping him alive would have helped more, considering how he had a scumread on you.
3) The strong town read on yuma that you apparently have forgotten is here (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9946.msg341885#msg341885). I think scum is more likely to forget about their (fake) reads than town is.
4) I don't feel like the AHoppy thing got zero attention. Only D2 was your claim that kept us busy and D3 was chairs' unfortunate out before the real discussion started.
5) Haha, that's funny.
6) I don't understand anything you are saying here. How is the chance that scum!you fakeclaims on a townie "statistically higher" than the chance that scum!you fakeclaims on a partner? Also, what's the question with TA? If I have a case on TA, of course I'm pushing your lynch, because there's no scenario where he is scum and you aren't.
7) If that's what you believe, answer my question here (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9946.msg345864#msg345864).
Okay, I think I've heard enough. It is certain that one of scotty/pps is scum. I have a quite strong town read on scotty, and a quite strong scum read on pps. Time to vote: pingpongsam.
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Actually, pps forgetting about his yuma town read is another huge scum indicator for me. I don't think I will change my vote today.
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Responing to pps:
1) Obviously, I meant you were afraid of being lynched, not of not being believed after your lynch. Yes, there was no attention being paid to TA, you could have changed that! But you didn't. The last point I don't understand. You seem to imply that your claim there has somehow made you obvtown, so we can see who's voting for the townie. Well, here's news for you - you're not obvtown. So that reasoning doesn't work.
2) How does Jimmmmm's flip help painting you scummy? It would seem to me that keeping him alive would have helped more, considering how he had a scumread on you.
3) The strong town read on yuma that you apparently have forgotten is here (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9946.msg341885#msg341885). I think scum is more likely to forget about their (fake) reads than town is.
4) I don't feel like the AHoppy thing got zero attention. Only D2 was your claim that kept us busy and D3 was chairs' unfortunate out before the real discussion started.
5) Haha, that's funny.
6) I don't understand anything you are saying here. How is the chance that scum!you fakeclaims on a townie "statistically higher" than the chance that scum!you fakeclaims on a partner? Also, what's the question with TA? If I have a case on TA, of course I'm pushing your lynch, because there's no scenario where he is scum and you aren't.
7) If that's what you believe, answer my question here (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9946.msg345864#msg345864).
Okay, I think I've heard enough. It is certain that one of scotty/pps is scum. I have a quite strong town read on scotty, and a quite strong scum read on pps. Time to vote: pingpongsam.
1) Not following where I said I was obvtown. I was saying that I expected to die and then I would be obvtown. That I didn't die is why I am so suspicious of what is taking place today.
2) The Jimmmmm flip paints me scummy in exactly the way you are leveraging by saying, "He also states a conviction that Jimmmm is town. Guess what? Jimmmmm dies the following night, and PPS comments this by stating "well, my reads are spot on" and voting AHoppy at MyLo. Not concerned that scum is just messing with you, trying to exploit your thinking that you have good reads?"
3) Touche, I did use strong Town read. I tend to get that from people who are reading me correctly and are obviously following a long line of consistency without trying to introduce fallacious malignancy to it.
4) You made sure my D2 claim stole the show by moving for immediate lynch, don't push that off on me for actually claiming after you told me it was anti-town to even delay claiming.
5) ...
6) See, this is the fun part. I agree with you and you still contrive it into an argument. Why are you fighting so hard even when I agree with you? Try to divert the attention from the fact that this is a classic MYLO setup for the win.
7) Because today's claims are very likely to be distrusted and possibly even lynched and you don't want to risk blowing your cover.
And since we're voting, Vote: faust, L-2 but I don't think we need to worry about a quickhammer since we're going to need 100% Town consensus here.
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And here we are again, I'm only responding to the things where I feel there still something to be said.
2) You do realize that make no sense, yes? You're basically saying scum!me planned that you were going to use Jimmmmm's flip as an excuse to vote AHoppy the following Day.
4) On one hand, you think town should have lynched you after your claim, on the other hand, you find me suspicious for pushing your lynch after your claim. How does that work?
7) Right... you do realize that I in fact have claimed? If scott and me were both scum, and knew that claims now are going to be distrusted, why would we plan a setup in which we both claim, making it more likely that one of us dies?
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6) The scumminess of TA
This probably deserves a post on his own. TA is in my eyes not acting like the quasi-IC he claims to be. As IC, you know your reads are probably worse than those of everyone else, so you listen to other players, ask questions, and try to push the game along, only throwing in your opinion when needed. This is not what I saw TA do. Instead, he fervently pushes a case on me - a townie and claimed Cop - even going so far as leaving me to be quickhammered by scum. And if TA is scum, obviously, so has to be PPS.
This is just a load of omgus. I think you're scum, so I must be scummy?
I disagree with how an IC should be played. That's fine, but saying I'm scummy because I don't play it how you would (and not sure if that's how you even played when you were IC) is a stretch.
Also pps your replies on this point don't make sense to me, either, I am not sure what you are saying. It seems like your conclusions aren't agreeing with what you are saying.
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Faust's actions only make sense as town is he's 100% I'm scum.
If he's 100% sure I'm scum, then yes, discrediting me is good.
If he's not 100% sure I'm scum, and I'm town, then he needs to convince me I'm town or try to do that. We are not winning through 3 days if I'm thinking he's town, and he knows that.
Faust's actions make sense if he's scum.
If he's scum, he only needs 1 mislynch, not 3 correct lynches. He doesn't care if the IC trusts him, as long as he can get pps or someone else lynched first. He doesn't need to convince me, he just needs to discredit me enough so that town will ignore me for one lynch.
Everything Faust is doing indicates that he's going for 1 mislynch rather than 3 correct lynches. Someone else please tell me if you disagree with this.
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Instead, he fervently pushes a case on me - a townie and claimed Cop - even going so far as leaving me to be quickhammered by scum. And if TA is scum, obviously, so has to be PPS.
I'd also like to point out that Faust is using this against me despite the fact that:
1) I first voted Faust, and he first subsequently discredited me, before he ever claimed cop. So saying that I'm scummy because I'm pushing against a claimed cop doesn't completely tell the truth when he's been discrediting me since before the claim.
2) he, too, is pushing on and voting a claimed cop. If he was town, therefore, he would know himself that this doesn't necessarily mean someone is scummy, since he was town and doing it. Yet here, he uses it as a point against me.
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If he's not 100% sure I'm scum, and I'm town, then he needs to convince me I'm town or try to do that. We are not winning through 3 days if I'm thinking he's town, and he knows that.
I hope I don't need to convince you that you're town ;) There are a lot of 'scumslips' in this.
I am not sold on you being scum. I think you're scummy, and I think scum!pps is more likely to fakeclaim a result on a scum partner, but I am first and foremost convinced that pps is scum.
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Instead, he fervently pushes a case on me - a townie and claimed Cop - even going so far as leaving me to be quickhammered by scum. And if TA is scum, obviously, so has to be PPS.
I'd also like to point out that Faust is using this against me despite the fact that:
1) I first voted Faust, and he first subsequently discredited me, before he ever claimed cop. So saying that I'm scummy because I'm pushing against a claimed cop doesn't completely tell the truth when he's been discrediting me since before the claim.
2) he, too, is pushing on and voting a claimed cop. If he was town, therefore, he would know himself that this doesn't necessarily mean someone is scummy, since he was town and doing it. Yet here, he uses it as a point against me.
You have to agree that, if I'm town, I have a pretty darn good reason to vote pps.
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And here we are again, I'm only responding to the things where I feel there still something to be said.
2) You do realize that make no sense, yes? You're basically saying scum!me planned that you were going to use Jimmmmm's flip as an excuse to vote AHoppy the following Day.
4) On one hand, you think town should have lynched you after your claim, on the other hand, you find me suspicious for pushing your lynch after your claim. How does that work?
7) Right... you do realize that I in fact have claimed? If scott and me were both scum, and knew that claims now are going to be distrusted, why would we plan a setup in which we both claim, making it more likely that one of us dies?
2) No, the Jimmmmm flip was leverage against the setup you provided the previous day by pointing out my "crazily good reads". I publicly read Jimmmmm Town and you NK'd him to further drive home the point that my reads are impossibly good for a Townie. You make a decent point about Jimmmmm having a scum read on me but I think that was offset by considering who would be least likely to be doctored along with how you were going to spring for the final mislynch the next day. In that light, Jimmmmm is practically the only choice.
4) No, I didn't think town should lynch me, I just expected to get lynched. That there was a sufficient wagon on me pre-claim made sure that the lynch was informative and thus useful to town. That I expected to be lynched post-claim is not a function of it being a townie thing to do at all but rather a scummy thing to do and you were the most vocal proponent of making it happen. I believe there was a reversal because it was realized that keeping me alive kept TA's alignment ambiguous and provided an excellent opportunity to bring it all up again when conditions were more favorable such as MYLO (now).
7) You are conflating claiming a role with claiming a result. I am the only person this entire game to have claimed a result. Considering the overwhelming number of roles in this game I think that represents a statistical likelihood that my claim is not fake. The Scott/faust setup does have risk to getting one or the other of you lynched. It also carries a high reward factor of getting me mislynched and coupled with the Jimmmmm flip you effected last night you feel certain you can make it happen. Plus, scum prefers to win with bravado rather than low-key play when possible.
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I mean, if you had known Scott was cop before, then yes.
(If town) But before your claim, you didn't know that pps was scum. For all you knew, you both could have been cops -- and then no more cops out there. What made it seem like a setup was that you knew Scott's claim was coming. If you were town, there's just no way you could have known unless you were 100% certain pps was scum. The fact that you claim, followed immediately by another claim, leads me to 2 possible solutions:
1) you are scum, knew there were no more cops after pps' claim, and fellow scum Scott was also planned to claim to frame pps.
2) you are scum, knew there was one more cop (Scott) and claimed to both out that cop and frame pps.
The scenario you are going by doesn't make sense to me:
3) you are town, unsure as to whether or not pps is cop, unsure as to whether or not there is one more cop out there (if you're a cop, you don't know if there are 5 or 6 --meaning you could not reasonable preclude pps being a cop). You claim, which if you are town, sets you up hugely for scum manipulation ( and you would know this). Basically, the town narrative doesn't make sense -- it only makes sense if you are entirely sure that pps is scum (maybe you investigated him but if that's the case you screwed town by withholding that information this long).
Cases 1 and 2 both seem so much more likely to me -- and maybe that's because I consider what you did, if town, to be poor play and playing right into scums fake claiming flexibility. But the scum narrative makes so much more sense.
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6) The scumminess of TA
This probably deserves a post on his own. TA is in my eyes not acting like the quasi-IC he claims to be. As IC, you know your reads are probably worse than those of everyone else, so you listen to other players, ask questions, and try to push the game along, only throwing in your opinion when needed. This is not what I saw TA do. Instead, he fervently pushes a case on me - a townie and claimed Cop - even going so far as leaving me to be quickhammered by scum. And if TA is scum, obviously, so has to be PPS.
This is just a load of omgus. I think you're scum, so I must be scummy?
I disagree with how an IC should be played. That's fine, but saying I'm scummy because I don't play it how you would (and not sure if that's how you even played when you were IC) is a stretch.
Also pps your replies on this point don't make sense to me, either, I am not sure what you are saying. It seems like your conclusions aren't agreeing with what you are saying.
All I am saying is that in leveraging the my investigation results into going for a kill between TA/PPS that I am the obvious choice. Acting as if there could be any other choice is silliness. With 7 players in the game and 3 known to be scum statistics dictate that the probability of a scum fakeclaim on a townie are higher precisely because there are more Town in the choice pool than scum. Since I am the obvious choice then the results of last night's NK have to be considered with what direction the mislynch must go to.
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My initial reaction to the jimmmmm flip was that its weird that a lurker was killed, and that it points to a team of active players who only have lurkers to choose from.
Not shooting pps makes sense because it would confirm me as town potentially, while not shooting me makes sense because I was probably the most likely doctor target.
If robz was town though I would have shot him if I were scum.
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Is there anyone out there who thinks that both pps and Faust are town and/or we should lynch somewhere else today?
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Is there anyone out there who thinks that both pps and Faust are town and/or we should lynch somewhere else today?
If this is the case is scotty not the obvious lynch? Is it possible to overlook the cop claim conundrum? I have already posited that the cop claim conundrum represents known but IMO low probability of a successful lynch.
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Yeah if someone thinks you are both town then Scott should be the lynch, you are right.
Robz does make a fair point that it's possible we are looking at 1/3 scum here and 2/4 in non-cops, which gives us better odds away from you guys..
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Twistedarcher reread:
D1
- his first post is theory talk. He also states that he has a town read on me (just keeping that on record to see when it changed)
- more theory talk, I'm going to skip that
- his first vote of the game is placed on pingpongsam
- throws in that no lynch could be a good idea when it is discussed, then votes yuma for searching scum on the pps wagon
- scum read on yuma leads him to a townier read on pps
- here (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9946.msg336324#msg336324) he's giving pps play advice, afraid of a scum partner lynch?
- votes for Eevee because he "isn't playing like himself"
- states he sees the merits of no lynch, but he still wants to lynch
- here (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9946.msg336726#msg336726), he suddenly agree with pps that no lynch is bad
- then he reiterates his scum read on Eevee after I point out something scummy about his play
- posts his incomplete case on Eevee, trying to construct an analogy to how he has played in scum games
- in this post (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9946.msg336877#msg336877), I am still his strongest town read
- then, he's afraid of being lynched over Eevee
- thinks pps is likelier town
- wants to vote Teproc over AHoppy, but stays off both wagons
- at the start of D2, he says AHoppy was at the top of his scum reads (though he preferred Teproc)
- in the Robz/yuma fight, leans town on both
- then, much lurking
- he finally finishes his Eevee case (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9946.msg340696#msg340696), and admits himself he might be stretching things to fit his case
- he is "sure" that Eevee is mafia, but no one listens to him
- note that TA's Eevee case at this point is still only based on early D1 interaction.
- as already pointed out, this (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9946.msg340888#msg340888) looks like he knew pps' claim was coming.
- disagrees with a pps lynch
- gets all panicky when pps is at L-1
- argues that we shouldn't lynch pps
- in a fishy post (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9946.msg340946#msg340946), he says that lynching pps could lead to Cops not claiming
- has an explanation (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9946.msg340953#msg340953) ready for why pps targeted him
- still has me as a townier read
- wants to lynch among Eevee, AHoppy, chairs, Archetype
- says yuma would be an excellent Cop target (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9946.msg341363#msg341363). yuma dies the following night.
- calls himself and pps "IC types" (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9946.msg341388#msg341388)
- says that if yuma is town, there are multiple scum in Eevee/AHoppy/Archetype/scott
- says he is super indecisive (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9946.msg342158#msg342158) in this game despite being sure Eevee is mafia earlier
- D3, he starts finding me scummy (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9946.msg343250#msg343250) apparently
- says he should maybe back up his vote on me, then says Jimmmmm and me are higher on his scum list, never explains why, even though he does post after being asked about this
- D4, he jumps me for the modkill
- calls a scumteam: me/Robz/pps
- then, after scott's and my claims, his pushes this weird setup idea
Taht's it. There are some scummy actions in here, I think.
PPE: 7
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pps, you're misusing statitics so grossly it makes me twitch.
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I mean, if you had known Scott was cop before, then yes.
(If town) But before your claim, you didn't know that pps was scum. For all you knew, you both could have been cops -- and then no more cops out there. What made it seem like a setup was that you knew Scott's claim was coming. If you were town, there's just no way you could have known unless you were 100% certain pps was scum. The fact that you claim, followed immediately by another claim, leads me to 2 possible solutions:
1) you are scum, knew there were no more cops after pps' claim, and fellow scum Scott was also planned to claim to frame pps.
2) you are scum, knew there was one more cop (Scott) and claimed to both out that cop and frame pps.
The scenario you are going by doesn't make sense to me:
3) you are town, unsure as to whether or not pps is cop, unsure as to whether or not there is one more cop out there (if you're a cop, you don't know if there are 5 or 6 --meaning you could not reasonable preclude pps being a cop). You claim, which if you are town, sets you up hugely for scum manipulation ( and you would know this). Basically, the town narrative doesn't make sense -- it only makes sense if you are entirely sure that pps is scum (maybe you investigated him but if that's the case you screwed town by withholding that information this long).
Cases 1 and 2 both seem so much more likely to me -- and maybe that's because I consider what you did, if town, to be poor play and playing right into scums fake claiming flexibility. But the scum narrative makes so much more sense.
As town, before the claim, I was looking at this:
There are either 5 Cops or 6 Cops. If there are 5 Cops, pps is scum. Only if there are 6 Cops, pps can be town. So that's a >50% chance that pps is scum. This is something I wanted town to know.
So consider 5 Cops, and scum fakeclaims following my claim. Great, both pps and the fake-claimee are scum. pps is scum anyway. If there is no fakeclaim, well, we still know pps might be scum with a decently high chance.
Then, consider 6 Cops. Either pps is one of them, then does scum set up a fakeclaim? Probably. If they do, there's a 50% chance of lynching scum if we lynch one of them. If pps is not a Cop, the real Cop claims, and we're in the same situation.
I don't see what the great scum manipulation following my claim could have been...
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Where's the rest of you guys? I can't lynch all the scum on my own!
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Prod: AHoppy
Sorry for being all proddy and stuff, but I'm kind of nervous here.
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I disagree with how an IC should be played. That's fine, but saying I'm scummy because I don't play it how you would (and not sure if that's how you even played when you were IC) is a stretch.
Out of interest, how do you think an IC should be played?
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TA, if you are truly town and truly believe in your little scumsetup theory
1) answer my earlier question, which you still haven't done.
2) reread this thread and show me how scotty and I are acting scummy, and what points to us being scum partners.
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And until you do that, unvote. Scum is much more likely to quickhammer now that one of them already place his vote on me.
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And until you do that, unvote. Scum is much more likely to quickhammer now that one of them already place his vote on me.
That is rich, what a hoot. Can't get your scumbuddies online all at once to force through the quickhammer so backpedal for some cred?
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Here. Don't want to be modkilled and cost us the game!
This seems kind of fake to me.
This seems kind of fake to me.
After sitting down and really thinking things over, I think I have decided the best course of action.
So we can (theoretically) divide the players into 2 groups:
Group 1 (1 scum for sure -- 2 scum unlikely -- 3 scum very unlikely)
scotty/PPS/faust
Group 2 (1 scum likely -- 2 scum somewhat likely -- 3 scum impossible)
Archetype/AHoppy/Robz888/Twistedarcher
From my perspective, there are actually 3 groups:
Group 1 (1 scum certainly -- 2/3 scum not likely)
scotty/PPS/faust
Group 2 (1 scum very likely -- 2 scum likely -- 3 scum impossible)
AHoppy/Robz
Group 3 (1 scum very unlikely -- 2/3 scum impossible)
Archetype/Twistedarcher
SO! I want to lynch one of Robz888 or AHoppy. I was leaning AHoppy, but something TA said struck me (quoted below):
Something that I'm considering: If PPS is town, which I am increasingly thinking due to Faust's actions, then scum really did not utilize their potential fakeclaiming potential. There's today to try to trap PPS, but other than that, there were no fakeclaims before D4, which I would have expected. (To be fair, they may have been coming D3 before it was cut short). I think it's more likely a lurker filled, or lurker majority team that would have no fakeclaims early.
If I was scum I'd 100% eliminate Robz888 over Jimmmmm. Robz is much more active and activity is what fuels Town to victory. Vote: Robz888
Also, anyone who thinks TA is scum needs to realize that for that to be true, PPS needs to be scum. So why aren't you suspecting PPS? Makes 0 sense.
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Sorry, I have hardly had time to do all the things I need to do IRL. But I think this faust-PPS fight is quite interesting. I still find PPS scummier though. I think there are more contradictions/holes in the way he has played.
Quick question: Remind me again why TA hasn't claimed?
I would be willing to lynch PPS. He was top of my scumreads earlier today, and nothing has made it go down.
TA does make some good points about faust, it does seem like he is playing more for one mis-lynch rather than 3 correct lynches.
What are the chances that faust-PPS is scum on scum? Probably not very good, because it does look like one of them is going to get lynched today. But you know, faust hasn't full-claimed yet so something crazy could happen.
PPE 2
bottom line: still willing to vote PPS
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Re: Archetype
I agree completely on TA. I think he should be off the table for today (and I have thought so since PPS's claim) because if he is scum, lynch PPS first.
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Sorry for the inactivity, I was in meetings all day. I've skimmed the recent posts.
I really, really think faust is town. Since there hasn't been a quickhammer on him (I mean really, scum could like even legitimately start putting votes on him at this point), this seems to suggest to me that scum does not have the numbers to lynch him, which would suggest to me that TA is actually scum.
That would PPS is scum, which seems perfectly reasonable to me.
I think Archetype is town. Scotty is a little townier than Ahoppy, I should say, and doesn't fit the team as well as Ahoppy.
So I suppose my guess is PPS/TA/Ahoppy. Obviously, there's no point lynching TA before PPS, because he can't actually be scum unless PPS is. IF TA isn't scum, I still PPS has decent odds to be scum, so I don't think my theory like falls apart if TA is actually town.
Do not lynch me, we lose. I think the reason for scum to keep me alive is obvious... as long as they could predict that people were going to say "Why is Robz still alive?" they know they have good odds for a mislynch of me. Probably better odds than a Jimm mislynch. I mean it's classic WIFOM, obviously, but I don't think it's so suprising that I lived over Jimm.
I actually even think it's more surprising that TA survived. He has a very partial IC status, and is really a very good townie (better than me IMO). But he was left alive.
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All that said I will absolutely vote for faust if it comes down to him vs. me... but if it does, I'd say that's like probably scum manipulating their way into a winning outcome.
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I really, really think faust is town. Since there hasn't been a quickhammer on him (I mean really, scum could like even legitimately start putting votes on him at this point), this seems to suggest to me that scum does not have the numbers to lynch him, which would suggest to me that TA is actually scum.
I'm confused. there are currently 2 votes on faust. If he were Town with all players except scott suddenly here I think he would be dead already. But no, the wagon refuses to budge. However, everyone appears to be circling PPS, funny that.
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I actually even think it's more surprising that TA survived. He has a very partial IC status, and is really a very good townie (better than me IMO). But he was left alive.
One word: Doctors.
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I missed him picking up a second vote. Has there been a vote count? Who's voting for him? It's not a good idea...
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Oh, you did. Well yeah, you're probably scum.
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Arch: do you have reasons for your groupings? Can you tell us why you think some people are more likely scum than others/how you assigned the number of scum in each grouping?
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Arch: do you have reasons for your groupings? Can you tell us why you think some people are more likely scum than others/how you assigned the number of scum in each grouping?
Ahoppy, who do you plan to vote for? I'm confused.
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Answer my question. I know you're reading this.
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I'm planning on voting for PPS. But I could also be convinced to vote faust. I was asking archetype to hopefully get some more discussion from him... Seeing as he's so mislynchable, I want more from him for more data.
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I'm planning on voting for PPS. But I could also be convinced to vote faust. I was asking archetype to hopefully get some more discussion from him... Seeing as he's so mislynchable, I want more from him for more data.
Vote for him right now. It's go time.
Vote: faust
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Vote: faust
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Oh, you did. Well yeah, you're probably scum.
If faust is Town then TA/PPS must be scum because otherwise faust would be dead already. I know otherwise which confirms to me that he is in fact scum.
PPE: very nice, thanks guys.
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8)
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I am shaking. But I was checking "Who's Online" and it looked like we were safe.
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I am shaking. But I was checking "Who's Online" and it looked like we were safe.
Whoo... Me too
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Aaaaand back to grading...
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It's great to finally win one. Nicely done you guys.
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Win #1 for me :) GG
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Haha, yeah I setup the quickhammer oh so subtly earlier today and kept espousing that if faust were scum the hammer would have fallen as my calling card repeatedly wondering when it would go off.
Superb, much fun playing with Robz and AHoppy 2 perfect complements to my style.
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It was fun being scum for once. Little more nerve wracking. Especially D1...
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Fake copping TA was the ticket. If he had not been in my corner today this would have been a no-go.
Damn feels good to see a plan come together.
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Hey so AHoppy and Robz were scum.
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Yeah the double bus D1 I thought AHoppy was a goner but the fact it swung away last second with us both on there was a real boon we rode for the rest of the game.
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Hey so AHoppy and Robz were scum.
Yeah great reads because this whole game has been about obfuscating them as my partners. When you delivered those last minute reads I thought our gig might be up.
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And I mostly posed my question, knowing Robz was on making sure he was actually here :P
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I actually feel like we were in good shape no matter what happened. If I got lynched, faust looked bad. If PPS got lynched, TA looked bad. And if Ahoppy was getting lynched, I was determined to be the man driving it, and thus look good.
I think I almost only voted for my scumbuddies this game (and yuma).
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Hey so AHoppy and Robz were scum.
Yeah great reads because this whole game has been about obfuscating them as my partners. When you delivered those last minute reads I thought our gig might be up.
Yeah. Looks like TA and I reached the same conclusion a bit too late.
Great job, you guys. I have now learned that when someone is actin super duper scummy...they're most likely Scum, not Town. Nice quick hammer arrangement as well!
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I also thought we were sure to hit a mislynch but I really badly wanted the flawless.
This has been supremely enjoyable because the entire game I was pointing at my partners and delivering the actual scum narratives that took place each night. Just hiding in plain sight.
I totally want to hear from Eevee because that guy is never, ever going to trust me ever again.
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Great job, you guys. I have now learned that when someone is actin super duper scummy...they're most likely Scum, not Town. Nice quick hammer arrangement as well!
I dunno, I was appalled at how scummy TA was coming off the last couple days.
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I thought I was giving myself away by being too reasonable. Reasonable Robz = scum.
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By the way, yes, I really was busy that whole time... I wasn't playing that up.
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By the way, yes, I really was busy that whole time... I wasn't playing that up.
Today that was tough on the nerves but for the rest of the game it was perfect because you were easy to paint as suspicious but you weren't around enough to paint yourself scummy. An AHoppy lynch was the ace in the hole we never had to pull.
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Well played, AHoppy, PPS, and Robz. I agree that TA was making himself look scummy, he probably would have been my next vote if PPS had gotten lynched.
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Well played, AHoppy, PPS, and Robz. I agree that TA was making himself look scummy, he probably would have been my next vote if PPS had gotten lynched.
scotty, you were the one guy I wanted dead so bad but had no recourse on; relentless you were.
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Great job, you guys. I have now learned that when someone is actin super duper scummy...they're most likely Scum, not Town. Nice quick hammer arrangement as well!
I dunno, I was appalled at how scummy TA was coming off the last couple days.
I wasn't scummy!! How was I scummy!!
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Great job, you guys. I have now learned that when someone is actin super duper scummy...they're most likely Scum, not Town. Nice quick hammer arrangement as well!
I dunno, I was appalled at how scummy TA was coming off the last couple days.
I wasn't scummy!! How was I scummy!!
Dude, you were scummy.
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Great job, you guys. I have now learned that when someone is actin super duper scummy...they're most likely Scum, not Town. Nice quick hammer arrangement as well!
I dunno, I was appalled at how scummy TA was coming off the last couple days.
I wasn't scummy!! How was I scummy!!
Dude, you were scummy.
I played like I normally do as town. Faust made a play I didn't understand and it really confused me.
He was right, but that has to backfire more times than it works..
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Oh well, congrats. We were not close at all.
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Great job, you guys. I have now learned that when someone is actin super duper scummy...they're most likely Scum, not Town. Nice quick hammer arrangement as well!
I dunno, I was appalled at how scummy TA was coming off the last couple days.
I wasn't scummy!! How was I scummy!!
To be fair I think you were psychologically impaired by having a fake cop result on you. You knew the result was correct but had no way to know it was faked and to the outside observer it was easy to see the question of whether it was faked dissolve over time. You were cooked if I flipped Town and subconsciously you had to work with that.
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Most of the lurkers were town. I think that was hurting you.
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Well, I was confused by Faust's claim. I thought you were scum until Faust claimed.
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I was between doctoring robz and Yuma n2. I picked so wrong. :(
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The faust claim definitely brought it all to a head and forced our hands. Many doors were open but the narrowing of a lynch down to faust/pps/scotty drove the game to a singular decision.
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I was between doctoring robz and Yuma n2. I picked so wrong. :(
Yeah, I'm anxious to see the night actions as well as for you guys to see the scum QT.
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It was right here that the fix became clear to me.
Something that I'm considering: If PPS is town, which I am increasingly thinking due to Faust's actions, then scum really did not utilize their potential fakeclaiming potential. There's today to try to trap PPS, but other than that, there were no fakeclaims before D4, which I would have expected. (To be fair, they may have been coming D3 before it was cut short). I think it's more likely a lurker filled, or lurker majority team that would have no fakeclaims early.
If Robz is town, I think the most likely team is Faust/Scott/Arch. This also makes sense with Faust not wanting to lynch in Scott/ARch/Ahoppy, since 2/3 would be his partner. If Robz is scum, Faust/Robz/X, I'm not sure who the most likely third would be.
Faust, I am still voting you because you are scum, why are you worried about getting quickhammered when it's clearly not going to happen? I am not waiting 10 more days or however long these deadlines are to vote. I do not want this to go to deadline again, absolutely not.
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I don't think anyone has posted a speccy yet....
http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/2r5Pn92SXtxGv
the whole speccy thought it was faust. Most of us thought Robz was scum as well...
I never should have reverted my read on you Robz.... Ugh! That how argument with you was such classic scum!robz and everyone just ignored it!
PPS had me fooled!
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I was between doctoring robz and Yuma n2. I picked so wrong. :(
You should have!!!
I was a Night3 cop. I was going to claim as such day3... demand protection night3 and then investigate either robz or PPS!
O well.
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I don't think anyone has posted a speccy yet....
maybe because the game hasn't officially ended yet? ;)
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Yuma, if it makes you feel better, I demanded that we kill you because I knew the reprieve I had earned in your eyes would only last until whatever night you got to investigate. :)
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Yuma, if it makes you feel better, I demanded that we kill you because I knew the reprieve I had earned in your eyes would only last until whatever night you got to investigate. :)
It doesn't...
I can't believe we went the whole game without a town cop getting out even one result!
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Yeah the double bus D1 I thought AHoppy was a goner but the fact it swung away last second with us both on there was a real boon we rode for the rest of the game.
and this makes me sick.... TA we were sooooo close... both of us town and we couldn't get it right together late day1...
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Yeah the double bus D1 I thought AHoppy was a goner but the fact it swung away last second with us both on there was a real boon we rode for the rest of the game.
and this makes me sick.... TA we were sooooo close... both of us town and we couldn't get it right together late day1...
Yeah, Yuma, I feel like we were totally on the same page this entire game.
Which made me so paranoid, since at times, it seemed like you were the only active player, and I was so afraid of getting misled...
If I had trusted you, and doctored you instead of switching to Robz, this game could have gone completely differently.
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Oh, and deadlines were way way too long. I feel that's probably the biggest contributor to the inactivity of the game.
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yuma put real effort into outlining my consistent behavior which was actually spot on except for the little detail where it was all carefully executed to be that consistent. If I learned anything this game it is that Townies are not going to be wholly consistent with near perfect voting records. My entire Mafia career culminated in this game to play the bus voting uber-consistent scum but I don't think I can ever do it again.
Very anxious to hear from Jimmmmm and Eevee, I think Voltaire won't have much to say as he went out so early and IRL concerns are greater.
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PPS and I were REALLY committed to busing, to an insane degree, and we both got lucky and were rewarded for it.
Like, I was totally prepared to kill Ahoppy on Day 1. I think a fair analysis would have determined that it was impossible for us to be partners, off that, which is nice.
To some extent, I was basically trusting the fact that I would fail, that my cases would not be heeded, that my wagons would not be joined (on Ahoppy Day 1 and PPS Day 2).
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ARGH!
And here I kept calling for the PPS lynch.
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Scum qt?
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Scum qt?
http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/TTRvYvwxFtUBp
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Yeah the double bus D1 I thought AHoppy was a goner but the fact it swung away last second with us both on there was a real boon we rode for the rest of the game.
and this makes me sick.... TA we were sooooo close... both of us town and we couldn't get it right together late day1...
Yeah, Yuma, I feel like we were totally on the same page this entire game.
Which made me so paranoid, since at times, it seemed like you were the only active player, and I was so afraid of getting misled...
If I had trusted you, and doctored you instead of switching to Robz, this game could have gone completely differently.
Yeah, well my trustability factor was pretty low after bad day1 and day2 reads from me, so I don't blame you at all...
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It's been so long since I had a correct read... Oh well :(
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Reading the scum QT was an ego boost so say the least... And one I needed given I haven't won a game in about 6 tries and haven't had a correct lynch in just about as long...
So I guess thanks for killing me and making me feel powerful or something?
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The best thing about my play in this one was that I never thought it was any good myself.
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The best thing about my play in this one was that I never thought it was any good myself.
Sorry :(
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THREAD LOCKED
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faust has been lynched. He was a town cop.
Robz888, pingpongsam, and AHoppy have won flawlessly!
pingpongsam is MVP for his good bussing on D1, constantly avoiding being lynched, and his fakeclaim.
Full setup:
1. Jimmmmm: N2 Doctor
2. AHoppy: Mafia Goon
3. Robz888: Mafia Goon
4. Twistedarcher: N2 Doctor
5. Archetype: N1 Doctor
6. Voltaire: N2 Cop
7. yuma: N3 Cop
8. mail-mi: N4 Cop
9. Eevee: N4 Cop
10. faust: N5 Cop
11. scott_pilgrim: N5 Cop
12. pingpongsam: Mafia Goon
13. nkirbit: N4 Doctor
QTs: (way more than was needed)
Mod (http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/ZpeRgPMifqCbc)
Old Mafia (http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/jCA6WQ8g4bs4)
Actual Mafia (http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/TTRvYvwxFtUBp)
Speccy 1 (http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/BmwR9ZPPutZJ)
Speccy 2 (http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/uk7Sk5efK8vbS)
Speccy 3 (http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/2r5Pn92SXtxGv)
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Wow, 4 N4-5 Cops.
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Yeah, the re-rolled setup certainly looks like it would favor scum.
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:(
After my last exchange with pps I really thought it was obvious that he has to be scum. Then I got quickhammered. TA, if only you had listened to me and unvoted!
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faust, you were so scummy in later days ! Sooooooo scummy ! I was convinced you were town until day 3 and then not so much.
Then again, I was convinced S_P was scum the whole game. Ahem.
Can't believe we were so close to lynching scum on day 1. And that we lynched me instead ! Tsssk.
Congrats to scum, PPS especially, well-deserved flawless victory.
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And well, this game town really had bad luck. Only night 4/5 Cops, not a single successful doctoring, we basically played a Vanilla game. Add in chairs' suicide - this really cost us one more Day.
I think while this setup might be balanced on average, it has way too high variance. As it is, it was tilted towards scum. If all Cops had been N1/N2 though, it would have strongly favored town.
Finally, all the speccy thought I was scum? Can anyone tell me how I should have played differently as town? I'm always eager to improve my play.
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Yeah, seeing the setup it was basically a vanilla game. Also, somehow mail-mi sneaked into the final setup. I guess he NK'd chairs?
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Yeah, seeing the setup it was basically a vanilla game. Also, somehow mail-mi sneaked into the final setup. I guess he NK'd chairs?
I'm fine with putting all the blame on nkirbit. How the hell did this guy get himself mislynched on day 1 ? With an all-town wagon, no less (+ AHoppy, but he would have been there had he been town as well).
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Finally, all the speccy thought I was scum? Can anyone tell me how I should have played differently as town? I'm always eager to improve my play.
I have no idea... Obviously I have a bias towards you for some reason. But certainly two things in particular tipped me off... first your increasing suspicion and aggression toward TA. Second was Robz's interaction with you. I was quite sure he was mafia and the way he was acting toward you was exactly what I thought robz would do as scum to a partner that he may or may not need to bus. But as for things to change? I really don't know.
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Yeah, faust, for me it was you going after TA so hard that made me think you were scum. There was just no way TA wasn't town. No way! TA, you played great. Everyone who says you were scummy is crazy (and scum themselves, so don't listen!).
Of course, I also thought PPS was town, so... :(
Would love to play this setup again.
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Wow, after reading the spec QT, I have to say, we did pretty well. No one called the correct team, or even came close, really.
We of course definitely had luck on our side with the setup, and other factors like chairs outing hugely benefited us.
A well deserved MVP for PPS!
And yeah, you'll read in the scum QT that I said on Night 3, "Me still being alive should be an automatic indicator at this point that I am scum." I just hoped everyone who would notice that was already dead. On a related note, the kills were definitely from my perspective about eliminating townies than threaten me, namely Voltaire and yuma. Thankfully, that was only obvious to Voltaire and yuma.
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I do have to say, a well-deserved gg to scum. Easily the best performance in a long, long time.
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Yeah, I stopped reading after I died, but every time I checked the thread to see who is still alive, I thought "Robz is still alive? He musttt be scum!"z
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And yeah, you'll read in the scum QT that I said on Night 3, "Me still being alive should be an automatic indicator at this point that I am scum." I just hoped everyone who would notice that was already dead. On a related note, the kills were definitely from my perspective about eliminating townies than threaten me, namely Voltaire and yuma. Thankfully, that was only obvious to Voltaire and yuma.
Hmmm... I disagree to an extent. If you were town you were consistently at least a viable mislynch candidate so I could see mafia keeping you alive for that. But what was more indicative was that voltaire and I were both dead. That was kinda a giveaway at that point.
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Just wanna say that if I were scum, I'd want to kill volt and Yuma too, so it doesn't mean that robz is scum!