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[SwitchedFromStarcraft]

@SFS are you serious? I didn't tell anyone to read those games until I posted my case on you, my case on you relies on you either believing me or going and reading those games, since you have no verifiable way to know that I am town I suggested reading those games. And when I posted my case and even now there is still time to skim those games for the required information.

RE-Vote: SFS

Again, misdirection.  The first two lines of your 217 read:

"So it's not the longest case in the world and it's a heavy meta argument, some of you may agree with me others may not.

If you have the time go look at ZM1, ZM2 and to a lesser extent MIV where SFS was town. In these games you might notice a similar posting pattern I sure did."

So BEFORE you laid out the "case", you suggested (my word) we go look at the games.  At the end of sentence two, have you made your case?  Does sentence 2 come BEFORE, sentence three?  I stand by exactly what I wrote, including the "ostensibly" and the fact that its a wonderful way to divert town, under time pressures.

The entire post is my case so if you read only some of it sure I suggest it before but I consider that entire post to be my case so. Your wrong and enjoy hating it.


PPE: I see Shraeye is also wrong and didn post much of a reason for me to respond to

While living in Texas I learned that when people are proven wrong by the simple examination of the facts, they often try to reframe the facts, then finish with "you're wrong" and then change topics. (When it was their own written communication that provided the facts, the rate at which they resorted to this tactic approached 100%).

[SwitchedFromStarcraft]

I don't like robz,insom and galz agreeing, as one of Themis scummmmmm

#74 for reference.  I suppose that it should say "at least" one.  "Themis" is a secret code that indicates ipad posting.

Themis was one of the Greek Titanesses.

[Insomniac]

@SFS are you serious? I didn't tell anyone to read those games until I posted my case on you, my case on you relies on you either believing me or going and reading those games, since you have no verifiable way to know that I am town I suggested reading those games. And when I posted my case and even now there is still time to skim those games for the required information.

RE-Vote: SFS

Interesting, but the fact of the matter is we have a disagreeance of opinion, you say "before" my case because it precedes the case in your opinion, I can see why you would think that. However it is part of the case in my opinion hence why I made a big post instead of smaller posts. If i had made a smaller post saying hey guys its not that much of a case but if you read these games" then I would absolutely agree with you, however I included it in the post of the case as it is part of my case, it's like referencing the material i'm citing.

Again, misdirection.  The first two lines of your 217 read:

"So it's not the longest case in the world and it's a heavy meta argument, some of you may agree with me others may not.

If you have the time go look at ZM1, ZM2 and to a lesser extent MIV where SFS was town. In these games you might notice a similar posting pattern I sure did."

So BEFORE you laid out the "case", you suggested (my word) we go look at the games.  At the end of sentence two, have you made your case?  Does sentence 2 come BEFORE, sentence three?  I stand by exactly what I wrote, including the "ostensibly" and the fact that its a wonderful way to divert town, under time pressures.

The entire post is my case so if you read only some of it sure I suggest it before but I consider that entire post to be my case so. Your wrong and enjoy hating it.


PPE: I see Shraeye is also wrong and didn post much of a reason for me to respond to

While living in Texas I learned that when people are proven wrong by the simple examination of the facts, they often try to reframe the facts, then finish with "you're wrong" and then change topics. (When it was their own written communication that provided the facts, the rate at which they resorted to this tactic approached 100%).

[Insomniac]

I have no idea what happened to that post but here we go again.

SFS I understand why you think it was before the case, but I disagree with it being before the case. From your POV it doesn't matter the size of the post its the order that the content is laid out by a person and thats a fine stance to take.

In my POV I had a reason for grouping all of that together and thats why I do not believe that I said that first, I believe it was part of my case. In essence it's like writing an essay. Imagine I had written the same thing without that line, is it clear what the source material I'm referring to is maybe? With the extra on top it definetly is. And like all essays you should have some call to action, in this case I am calling for people to vote for you, but they can't just blindly believe me because I might be scum so I encourage them to read the source material and come to their own conclusions.

[SwitchedFromStarcraft]

I have no idea what happened to that post but here we go again.

SFS I understand why you think it was before the case, but I disagree with it being before the case. From your POV it doesn't matter the size of the post its the order that the content is laid out by a person and thats a fine stance to take.

In my POV I had a reason for grouping all of that together and thats why I do not believe that I said that first, I believe it was part of my case. In essence it's like writing an essay. Imagine I had written the same thing without that line, is it clear what the source material I'm referring to is maybe? With the extra on top it definetly is. And like all essays you should have some call to action, in this case I am calling for people to vote for you, but they can't just blindly believe me because I might be scum so I encourage them to read the source material and come to their own conclusions.

Fair enough.  A honest difference of opinion about how to interpret the word "before". Does "before" mean "occurs prior to", or does "before" mean "in an earlier post".

VOTE: Insomniac, for the multitude of reasons already discussed, and for being so defensive once he "proved ME wrong"

[Eevee]

still here and reading, despite my friends literally hating this forum. reads still the same. shraeye, I wish I could post more tomorrow!

[Insomniac]

I have no idea what happened to that post but here we go again.

SFS I understand why you think it was before the case, but I disagree with it being before the case. From your POV it doesn't matter the size of the post its the order that the content is laid out by a person and thats a fine stance to take.

In my POV I had a reason for grouping all of that together and thats why I do not believe that I said that first, I believe it was part of my case. In essence it's like writing an essay. Imagine I had written the same thing without that line, is it clear what the source material I'm referring to is maybe? With the extra on top it definetly is. And like all essays you should have some call to action, in this case I am calling for people to vote for you, but they can't just blindly believe me because I might be scum so I encourage them to read the source material and come to their own conclusions.

Fair enough.  A honest difference of opinion about how to interpret the word "before". Does "before" mean "occurs prior to", or does "before" mean "in an earlier post".

VOTE: Insomniac, for the multitude of reasons already discussed, and for being so defensive once he "proved ME wrong"

Well you ARE wrong, I AM town. But you already know that, so I guess you aren't wrong and can fake "aww shucks i hate being wrong" tomorrow if you actually manage to get my lynched.

[Robz888]

still here and reading, despite my friends literally hating this forum. reads still the same. shraeye, I wish I could post more tomorrow!

Eevee, shraeye has come out against Insomniac. You will be immediately switching your vote to Insomniac, per your argument, correct?

Let me stop you before you say, "No, we didn't agree to that, and I didn't designate shraeye as my IC to sheep."

Your argument rested on the notion that the ICs would have superior reads, did it not? Aren't you therefore bound to join the opinion of the only one of them currently offering one?

I bring this up again because I think you're getting a pass for proposing something that made no sense, that everyone rejected, and then you fled to the cover of your IRL commitments.

[shraeye]

still here and reading, despite my friends literally hating this forum. reads still the same. shraeye, I wish I could post more tomorrow!

Eevee, shraeye has come out against Insomniac. You will be immediately switching your vote to Insomniac, per your argument, correct?

Let me stop you before you say, "No, we didn't agree to that, and I didn't designate shraeye as my IC to sheep."

Your argument rested on the notion that the ICs would have superior reads, did it not? Aren't you therefore bound to join the opinion of the only one of them currently offering one?

I bring this up again because I think you're getting a pass for proposing something that made no sense, that everyone rejected, and then you fled to the cover of your IRL commitments.

Blaming a man's RL commitments as a fleeing excuse is poor form, but I don't dock you for that.  It's easy to be suspicious of everything as town, and it's an easy argument to make as scum.  So that could break either way.

[shraeye]

@Frisk  I agree, and would play this setup again in a heartbeat.  I'm already loving it.

Insom, who are your top two scum reads?

SFS - I have a case beyond the Jimm thing and I'll be happy to share it later, if I share it now it loses it's merit because he can change what I am finding to be his damning trait as scum.

The other eh? I think Eevee could be scum but it's not like Eevee to propose bad ideas as scum he tries to blend in more (I think?), CF again could be but I've been finding his play somewhat townish. I think Galz is mislead town so I guess Robz.

As Galz said Robz came in and kind of agreed with what was already happening and he's been a bit more lurky then Robz normally is as a VT. The last part to explain Robz is NOT an IC therefore Robz is either a Goon or a VT, I have not seen Robz lurk when he's a VT because he isn't trying to hide the fact that he has a PR (see his somewhat lurky agreeable state in MXIV)

This is a major point of my case on Insomniac.  He expresses scum read on SFS and Robz (to some degree by PoE, it seems).  However you have expressed that Galz is misled town, and that CF's play has been townish.  That makes Eevee scum as well, right?  Except you think that Eevee wouldn't propose the bad idea as scum, and that he'd try to blend in more.  Well that totals up to 4 town reads (to varying degrees) and 2 scum reads.  That doesn't add up.

My suspicion is that you wanted to try to bus one of your scummates, and frame one towny, but forgot you'd need a third scum read.  The triple that makes the most sense when I buy that theory is that the scumteam is Eevee, Insom, SFS.  Eevee is thus also bussing SFS (not with his vote, but with his scumread at least).  Interesting to note, is that if that is the triple, each of EIS have one vote on their mates, and one vote on town.  Although none of those town votes overlap.

[Captain_Frisk]

Shraeye, do you have a handy table of everyone's 2 scum reads and their townread?

[Insomniac]

@Frisk  I agree, and would play this setup again in a heartbeat.  I'm already loving it.

Insom, who are your top two scum reads?

SFS - I have a case beyond the Jimm thing and I'll be happy to share it later, if I share it now it loses it's merit because he can change what I am finding to be his damning trait as scum.

The other eh? I think Eevee could be scum but it's not like Eevee to propose bad ideas as scum he tries to blend in more (I think?), CF again could be but I've been finding his play somewhat townish. I think Galz is mislead town so I guess Robz.

As Galz said Robz came in and kind of agreed with what was already happening and he's been a bit more lurky then Robz normally is as a VT. The last part to explain Robz is NOT an IC therefore Robz is either a Goon or a VT, I have not seen Robz lurk when he's a VT because he isn't trying to hide the fact that he has a PR (see his somewhat lurky agreeable state in MXIV)

This is a major point of my case on Insomniac.  He expresses scum read on SFS and Robz (to some degree by PoE, it seems).  However you have expressed that Galz is misled town, and that CF's play has been townish.  That makes Eevee scum as well, right?  Except you think that Eevee wouldn't propose the bad idea as scum, and that he'd try to blend in more.  Well that totals up to 4 town reads (to varying degrees) and 2 scum reads.  That doesn't add up.

My suspicion is that you wanted to try to bus one of your scummates, and frame one towny, but forgot you'd need a third scum read.  The triple that makes the most sense when I buy that theory is that the scumteam is Eevee, Insom, SFS.  Eevee is thus also bussing SFS (not with his vote, but with his scumread at least).  Interesting to note, is that if that is the triple, each of EIS have one vote on their mates, and one vote on town.  Although none of those town votes overlap.

I suspected this is your case, and not only is it wrong it's weak. I don't have 2 strong scum reads.

[Insomniac]

To elaborate essentially when I made that post I felt strongly that SFS was scum. I didn't have any other strong scum reads because as you'll note I explained a reason why each person could be town.

[Galzria]

Alright, going back to my reads from earlier:

Robz is still my #1 scum suspect. I don't at all feel like he adequately explained his mysterious town read on me. Everybody else here has me scummy or neutral at best, and so this stands out. One of my favorite scumhunting tells is "two town players cannot agree naturally". Look at Volt/Robz in M-II (Insomniac called Robz there), or Theorel/eHunt in M,VI (I called Theorel there). Or even Theorel/Frisk in M-VIII (I called Frisk there). I feel like right now Robz is trying too hard to pair up Galzria/Robz.

I'm going to Vote: Robz for now.

My second scum read from earlier was Insomniac. I didn't like his light, non-committal last night, only siting basic numbers to weakly support a position that he didn't seem to firmly stand behind. His vote on SFS over the Jimmmmm thing also stood out as rather awkward - BUT - it's that awkwardness combined with my dislike of SFS' response that leave me having a gutcheck here.

Regarding SFS, I don't think he's posting like ZM3 at all, but I've also lost my usual IC feel on him - and I don't know how to interpret that. All through ZM3 (where he was scum scum scum) I swore up and down he was anything but. Even after I died. Of course, the same was true of ZM1, although to be fair he WAS town there, and I was scum. My point is, I've never encountered a SFS that I'm uncomfortable about. Because of this, I'm feeling absolutely sure that either he or Insomniac is scum, and the other town. I just... Can't see them both being town together (ohh, although both scum WOULD be interesting... I'll think on that. Although realistically we need to lynch one and see a flip before that could be a real possibility).

Eevee I stand by being town... Tentatively. I've given my reasons in an earlier post, and while I stand being my theory that scum!Eevee probably wouldn't start the debate he did last night, the fact is, if Eevee is town, I'm town, and one of SFS/Insomniac is town, that would mean...

CF is scum. And I'm not comfortable making that declaration. So I need to more closely look at Eevee's play, as well as consider if it's possible for SFS and Insomniac to both be scum.

[shraeye]

Hey Frisk, who of the unconfirmed players (other than yourself) would you stake the game right now on them being town?

This question gives me heartburn.  I'm thinking that the eevee bad theory is something being co-ordinated from daychat. 

I could see Galz being one of the buddies, so not him.

I could see Insomniac + SFS being buddies, and the insomniac snap @ SFS as planned ploy.

I guess POE would say RobZ, but he's lurking.

Why would I bet the game on one player being town?

[shraeye]

[Hah, I posted the wrong piece above]

Here is the reason I find Frisk to be town.

He was the first out of the gates to outline the scenarios with lynches and mislynches, which has helped me think about this game.  That is a weak reason, and buys only minor credit.

In #74, he's the first person to mention the fact that if you pick 3 players other than yourself (and are town) then one of those players is scum.  Another important thought in this game that helps town.

Robz found Frisk's reaction to the "scumslip" find by me to be defensive, but I read it as genuine worry.  This makes Frisk feel towny to me.

Hey Frisk, who of the unconfirmed players (other than yourself) would you stake the game right now on them being town?

This question gives me heartburn.  I'm thinking that the eevee bad theory is something being co-ordinated from daychat. 

I could see Galz being one of the buddies, so not him.

I could see Insomniac + SFS being buddies, and the insomniac snap @ SFS as planned ploy.

I guess POE would say RobZ, but he's lurking.

Why would I bet the game on one player being town?

This is his reaction to the give one solid town read.  I think this is a much easier question for scum to answer, because they have the whole setup in front of them, and just have to pick to lie about a scummate, or pick a towny (gaining credit in that person's eyes likely).  As a towny with no knowledge, this question would give me heartburn and be very difficult to answer.  SFS also had a hard time answering this question, but chose to not answer it instead.  Frisk felt super uncomfortable but was willing to give the information anyway.  This shows that it's a tough question for him but that he's not got anything to hide.  Really his reaction to this felt very genuine and town.  If I had to stake the game on someone being town, Frisk would be my bet for town.

[Robz888]

Alright, going back to my reads from earlier:

Robz is still my #1 scum suspect. I don't at all feel like he adequately explained his mysterious town read on me. Everybody else here has me scummy or neutral at best, and so this stands out. One of my favorite scumhunting tells is "two town players cannot agree naturally". Look at Volt/Robz in M-II (Insomniac called Robz there), or Theorel/eHunt in M,VI (I called Theorel there). Or even Theorel/Frisk in M-VIII (I called Frisk there). I feel like right now Robz is trying too hard to pair up Galzria/Robz.

I'm going to Vote: Robz for now.

My second scum read from earlier was Insomniac. I didn't like his light, non-committal last night, only siting basic numbers to weakly support a position that he didn't seem to firmly stand behind. His vote on SFS over the Jimmmmm thing also stood out as rather awkward - BUT - it's that awkwardness combined with my dislike of SFS' response that leave me having a gutcheck here.

Regarding SFS, I don't think he's posting like ZM3 at all, but I've also lost my usual IC feel on him - and I don't know how to interpret that. All through ZM3 (where he was scum scum scum) I swore up and down he was anything but. Even after I died. Of course, the same was true of ZM1, although to be fair he WAS town there, and I was scum. My point is, I've never encountered a SFS that I'm uncomfortable about. Because of this, I'm feeling absolutely sure that either he or Insomniac is scum, and the other town. I just... Can't see them both being town together (ohh, although both scum WOULD be interesting... I'll think on that. Although realistically we need to lynch one and see a flip before that could be a real possibility).

Eevee I stand by being town... Tentatively. I've given my reasons in an earlier post, and while I stand being my theory that scum!Eevee probably wouldn't start the debate he did last night, the fact is, if Eevee is town, I'm town, and one of SFS/Insomniac is town, that would mean...

CF is scum. And I'm not comfortable making that declaration. So I need to more closely look at Eevee's play, as well as consider if it's possible for SFS and Insomniac to both be scum.

I DID adequately explain my town read on you: I cannot suspect everyone of being mafia. And I suspect Eevee, SFS, and Frisk MORE than I suspect you and Insomniac. There's no single thing you've done where I can say "that was scummy." Consequently, my read on you is just nothing. Since I have scummier reads on at least three people, that makes you one of my "town" reads.

I agree with Insomniac's vote over SFS for the Jim thing. Obviously SFS didn't mean it seriously, but trying to get back into the good graces of RVS is something scum do, in my opinion. Because humor and silliness is less threatening than real discussion. That's why I also voted SFS at this time.

I'm pretty intrigued that basically every person says Eevee is town. We all agree he is wrong (except him and SFS), and he's the big town read?

I would switch my vote to him, but there's no wagon there, and I still prefer SFS to Insomniac.

PPE: I strongly disagree with shraeye about Frisk. Filling in readily available info is something anyone can do, town or scum. It's certainly going to emerge before Day 1 ends, so there's no reason for scum not to post it. Why would he have genuine worry abou having committed the scumslip, unless he was the scum who made it? Maybe you don't know this, but the biggest authentic scumslip in the history of forum mafia was made by Frisk in M-VIII.

[Insomniac]

Friends coming from out of town to visit I have maybe another hour before I have to be out for the rest of day 1.

[shraeye]

Shraeye, do you have a handy table of everyone's 2 scum reads and their townread?

Not everyone gave a townread.  I only asked it of some.

Eevee--Scum(Galz/SFS)
Insom--scum(SFS/Robz)
Frisk--scum(Eevee/SFS) town(Robz)
Robz--scum(SFS/Eevee) town(Galz)
SFS--scum(Frisk/insom) town(no answer given)
Galzria--scum(Robz/Insom)

[Captain_Frisk]

I later changed my town to insom fyi

[shraeye]

Why would he have genuine worry abou having committed the scumslip, unless he was the scum who made it? Maybe you don't know this, but the biggest authentic scumslip in the history of forum mafia was made by Frisk in M-VIII.

I know about Frisk's slip, but that's irrelevant here.

I am often worried about making slips as town because I feel they'll mislead town and create a mislynch.  That is the feeling I get from Frisk here.

[Robz888]

Why would he have genuine worry abou having committed the scumslip, unless he was the scum who made it? Maybe you don't know this, but the biggest authentic scumslip in the history of forum mafia was made by Frisk in M-VIII.

I know about Frisk's slip, but that's irrelevant here.

I am often worried about making slips as town because I feel they'll mislead town and create a mislynch.  That is the feeling I get from Frisk here.

Do you actually, though? I've only ever worried about making slips when I was mafia. And if I was told a slip had been made, I would only be especially worried it was me if I were mafia.

[Insomniac]

Why would he have genuine worry abou having committed the scumslip, unless he was the scum who made it? Maybe you don't know this, but the biggest authentic scumslip in the history of forum mafia was made by Frisk in M-VIII.

I know about Frisk's slip, but that's irrelevant here.

I am often worried about making slips as town because I feel they'll mislead town and create a mislynch.  That is the feeling I get from Frisk here.

Do you actually, though? I've only ever worried about making slips when I was mafia. And if I was told a slip had been made, I would only be especially worried it was me if I were mafia.

But would you openly express that worry?

[Robz888]

Why would he have genuine worry abou having committed the scumslip, unless he was the scum who made it? Maybe you don't know this, but the biggest authentic scumslip in the history of forum mafia was made by Frisk in M-VIII.

I know about Frisk's slip, but that's irrelevant here.

I am often worried about making slips as town because I feel they'll mislead town and create a mislynch.  That is the feeling I get from Frisk here.

Do you actually, though? I've only ever worried about making slips when I was mafia. And if I was told a slip had been made, I would only be especially worried it was me if I were mafia.

But would you openly express that worry?

I might, to try and get out in front of it. Then you could be all like, "See, I knew he was going to make this mistake thinking it was a scumslip!" It wouldn't be a good move, but I bet scum wouldn't be able to help themselves.

[Insomniac]

Alright, going back to my reads from earlier:

Robz is still my #1 scum suspect. I don't at all feel like he adequately explained his mysterious town read on me. Everybody else here has me scummy or neutral at best, and so this stands out. One of my favorite scumhunting tells is "two town players cannot agree naturally". Look at Volt/Robz in M-II (Insomniac called Robz there), or Theorel/eHunt in M,VI (I called Theorel there). Or even Theorel/Frisk in M-VIII (I called Frisk there). I feel like right now Robz is trying too hard to pair up Galzria/Robz.

I'm going to Vote: Robz for now.

My second scum read from earlier was Insomniac. I didn't like his light, non-committal last night, only siting basic numbers to weakly support a position that he didn't seem to firmly stand behind. His vote on SFS over the Jimmmmm thing also stood out as rather awkward - BUT - it's that awkwardness combined with my dislike of SFS' response that leave me having a gutcheck here.

Regarding SFS, I don't think he's posting like ZM3 at all, but I've also lost my usual IC feel on him - and I don't know how to interpret that. All through ZM3 (where he was scum scum scum) I swore up and down he was anything but. Even after I died. Of course, the same was true of ZM1, although to be fair he WAS town there, and I was scum. My point is, I've never encountered a SFS that I'm uncomfortable about. Because of this, I'm feeling absolutely sure that either he or Insomniac is scum, and the other town. I just... Can't see them both being town together (ohh, although both scum WOULD be interesting... I'll think on that. Although realistically we need to lynch one and see a flip before that could be a real possibility).

Eevee I stand by being town... Tentatively. I've given my reasons in an earlier post, and while I stand being my theory that scum!Eevee probably wouldn't start the debate he did last night, the fact is, if Eevee is town, I'm town, and one of SFS/Insomniac is town, that would mean...

CF is scum. And I'm not comfortable making that declaration. So I need to more closely look at Eevee's play, as well as consider if it's possible for SFS and Insomniac to both be scum.

FoS: Galzria - This post feels like your setting up an excuse to vote for either me or SFS, since I know I'm town it feels like your setting up a bus on SFS if needed or more preferably to you an Insom townie lynch.