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[chairs]

There's no more than one vote of any other player but me.  That's interesting.

I think it might be interesting to see what has happened as the wagon on you has slowly worked itself down - perhaps scum (assuming you're town) is now kicking themselves for not hammering when opportunity permitted.

[yuma]

Everyone should keep in mind that your mod is starting his 7-on schedule and will have limited availability for the next week. mail-mi will continue to perform vote counts as he sees fit--which I will continue to back edit with flavor. However, no one else is authorized to lock the thread--except in situations involving the Civility Pledge--so feel free to ignore any unauthorized thread locks after a hammer vote is cast. Again this is intentional as I would like to have some amount of twilight time.

Also FYI, I have authorized the mafia quicktopic to be unlocked beginning at twilight--once it has been firmly established that a hammer vote was indeed cast--allowing them to start their communication earlier than usual.

[ashersky]

What's a MUD?

[chairs]

What's a MUD?

Text-based MMO - think world of warcraft without graphics.  Usually played via telnet.

not terribly relevant to Mafia, I'm afraid.

[Jimmmmm]

I believe that's L - 2 on ash. The question we have to ask, I think, is "Would scum ash be this bold?" Whether Town or scum, he knows that loudly disagreeing with the majority and going so far as to dare us to lynch him is going to rub people the wrong way. We've certainly seen this sort of thing before from ash as Town - in Bankers I really wanted to keep going after him because I disagreed with the way he was playing, but in the end I reluctantly concluded that I thought he was Town. So is this a ploy from scum ash wanting us to conclude that he's Town because scum ash wouldn't be so bold, or is this simply Town ash being ash and not really caring if he rubs people the wrong way?

In one sense I think this would be a reasonable lynch regardless. At least if he's Town we can get some reads from him and then move on from this. He's already made it clear that if he's the Hider or the TrackerVig then he'll use those roles poorly, so at least we wouldn't have to worry about that any more.

Anyway, I do think there is a reasonable chance that ash is scum trying to replicate his Town meta, and I think he's the best lynch candidate at the moment.

PPE 6

I disagree. If you think Ashersky flips scum, vote him. If not, don't vote him. We are still early D1, this is our first significant wagon, it's far, far, far too early to vote someone simply because it could be beneficial even if they flip town.

We should not be trying to lynch to gain information -- we should be trying to lynch scum. This quote is really fishy, to me.

That's not what I meant at all. I don't know about you, but I don't think as Town I'll ever be certain that someone is scum absent some sort of mod confirmation, so for me when comparing possible lynches you have to consider the likelihood of each player beings scum, but also how much it will help the Town if they are and how much it will hurt the Town if they aren't. If we lynch ash and he's Town, that will be bad compared to lynching scum, but as a consolation we will be able to move on from this, and not, say, come back to it tomorrow and the next day etc until we finally do decide to lynch him, and also we won't have to worry about him misusing a PR.

[ashersky]

What's a MUD?

Text-based MMO - think world of warcraft without graphics.  Usually played via telnet.

not terribly relevant to Mafia, I'm afraid.

Still cool.  I did WOW back in the day.

[Jimmmmm]

So you've mentioned three problems you seems to have with the "plan".

1. The Hider might not cooperate.
Well, you know, that's kind of the point. If someone like you was NKed and flipped Hider, we'd have absolutely no idea what that meant. But if someone who had committed to Hiding in a particular way was NKed and flipped Hider, then I'd trust them to uphold what they committed to do.

2. You don't understand the plan?
Allow me to explain it again for you. It's quite simple really. You start at your name on the signup list. That's name 0. You then go down to first name below yours who is not dead, yourself, or someone you've already hidden behind, looping back to the top of the list if necessary. That's name 1. You continue this until you get to name x, where x is the number next to your flavour name. You hide behind name x. If you get to the point where you've hidden behind every other player... actually nevermind you'd be dead by then.

3. The plan is not flawless, and scum will manipulate it.
Well yeah, it's dependent on the competence of Town players, but really, it's simple enough that if we can't figure it out then we don't deserve to win. Scum will manipulate it? Maybe. But I really don't see a way they could if the Town players involved actually follow it properly. Maybe you don't agree with someone whose alignment you don't know coming up with a plan for everyone to follow. You'll note that I didn't demand everyone to do the same thing as me, I just said what I would do if I was the Hider, so that Town would have that information after I die, and encouraged others to do something similar, coming up with their own plan if they dislike mine.

Anyway, why are we even talking about this? Oh right, you brought it up again. You say you're the only Townie trying to win this game? You must realise that it's extremely possible that a Town aligned player will die with absolute knowledge that someone is scum. We're trying to be able to obtain that knowledge, whereas you're trying to make sure we don't. I just don't see it.

[mail-mi]

Vote Count 1.9

"Wait. If you two are here. Who is guarding the door?" asked The Cop pointing to Professor Plum and Mrs. Peacock. The two guards looked at each other guiltily and shrugged their shoulders.

"We thought someone was in danger," said Mrs. Peacock.

"I thought I had recognized the scream and came running without a thought," said Professor Plum. "You see we have perfect alibis and have explained everything."

"You don't have to," said The Cop.

"We don't? Are you sure?" the two members of the party said at the same time.

"Of course. This is America. It's a free country, don't you know that?" answered The Cop.

liopoil (2): raerae, nkirbit
ashersky (5): Snow, ashersky, TA, Eevee, Voltaire
Voltaire (1): Robz
nkirbit (1): shraeye
Robz (1): chairs

Not voting: (3) liopoil, mcmcsalot, Jimmmm

With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch.
Day1 Ends in 10 days. July 22nd at 10:30 a.m. forum time.

[Jimmmmm]

Oh, and the plan does work. It isn't worded perfectly, and in fact, I don't see why it doesn't just say "I hide behind the player whose # in the player list is my flavor number, and the player after that if that player is dead/me/hid behind previously." But the point is that if it is followed correctly by the hider, we will know who they hid behind if they die tonight.

Because if it's only dependent on flavour numbers then scum will have a much easier time figuring who's going to be hidden behind. Anyway, as I said, if you don't quite agree with how I've worded, feel free to come up with something different for yourself.

[Voltaire]

This game just screeched to a halt.  What happened?

You. You took us away from the useful scumhunting we were doing, when it seemed like your willingness to self-vote had gone away. UoS came back with a reads-based case on you, and your insanity continued. Then I snapped, because I am a human being, and I policy voted you. That answered your other questions.

You are the only one claiming to be some sort of mafia god. None of us are. Yet you are yelling at us for claiming to be mafia gods.

Actual scumread there for finding people scummy for things you yourself are doing.

[Jimmmmm]

Count 10 people, starting with me.  Guess what, I can hide behind Jimmmmm OR nkirbit.  DO YOU NOT SEE THIS??  HOW WOULD YOU KNOW?

Oh really? That's your problem with the plan?

It's right there: "from my own name, count down the number that is next to my flavour name in the second OP"

If you are at your own name, how many times do you move down to get to your own name? Zero!
If you are 13, and you count down 10, you get to nkirbit. Your name is zero, because you don't count down from your name to get to your name. It's so freaking simple!

[Jimmmmm]

If there was such a plan out there for Hiders that it allows Town to just catch scum like that, why isn't it common knowledge, and why are Hiders allowed in games?

This is akin to saying, "If KC/Goons/Masquerade worked, why isn't there something about it in the FAQ? Huh?? (Wait, where'd my deck go?)"

[ashersky]

If there was such a plan out there for Hiders that it allows Town to just catch scum like that, why isn't it common knowledge, and why are Hiders allowed in games?

This is akin to saying, "If KC/Goons/Masquerade worked, why isn't there something about it in the FAQ? Huh?? (Wait, where'd my deck go?)"

KC/Goons/Masq can be broken up by a number of things, as has been shown.

The only thing that defeats the perfect Hider plan is...nothing.  You can't kill the Hider directly.

If the Hider is killed by hiding behind the Vig, what happens?

[ashersky]

This game just screeched to a halt.  What happened?

You. You took us away from the useful scumhunting we were doing, when it seemed like your willingness to self-vote had gone away. UoS came back with a reads-based case on you, and your insanity continued. Then I snapped, because I am a human being, and I policy voted you. That answered your other questions.

You are the only one claiming to be some sort of mafia god. None of us are. Yet you are yelling at us for claiming to be mafia gods.

Actual scumread there for finding people scummy for things you yourself are doing.

What willingness to self-vote?  I already self-voted.  I can't continue to have willingness to do it.  It's already done.

And why should my willingness to self-vote have any affect on your scumhunting?  Just ignore it if you don't like it.

I do believe I'm very good at being scum.  If I was scum in this game, I'd be sitting back and enjoying the show.  I believe that's what they are doing now.  I'm forcing them to either help lynch me, or let the game stall.  But at least they can't keep getting clues as to who the Hider is.

UoS built a case on me.  Cool.  I responded.  Also cool.  Folks can believe one or the other.  No biggie there.  Not seeing the big deal.

You are free to have an "actual scumread" on me now.  Thanks for pointing out your previous scumread on me was faked.

[Voltaire]

If there was such a plan out there for Hiders that it allows Town to just catch scum like that, why isn't it common knowledge, and why are Hiders allowed in games?

This is akin to saying, "If KC/Goons/Masquerade worked, why isn't there something about it in the FAQ? Huh?? (Wait, where'd my deck go?)"

KC/Goons/Masq can be broken up by a number of things, as has been shown.

The only thing that defeats the perfect Hider plan is...nothing.  You can't kill the Hider directly.

If the Hider is killed by hiding behind the Vig, what happens?

On the very remote chance we have a vig (everyone who has spoken about it but you has been against it) they find a way to derail us without claiming.

And look what you've done! Kept the theory talk going.

I did get that one actual scumread out of you, so that was nice.

And I would call chairs and mcmc lurkers, btw.

[ashersky]

Count 10 people, starting with me.  Guess what, I can hide behind Jimmmmm OR nkirbit.  DO YOU NOT SEE THIS??  HOW WOULD YOU KNOW?

Oh really? That's your problem with the plan?

It's right there: "from my own name, count down the number that is next to my flavour name in the second OP"

If you are at your own name, how many times do you move down to get to your own name? Zero!
If you are 13, and you count down 10, you get to nkirbit. Your name is zero, because you don't count down from your name to get to your name. It's so freaking simple!

Really?  Count down the number next to my flavor name.  Again, let's pick #10.

10
9
8
7
6
5
4
3
2
1
0

Now I've moved 11 spots from my own name.

[ashersky]

And I would call chairs and mcmc lurkers, btw.

Really?  At the time of the post count (and still), Chairs had posted MORE than shraeye.  Why does he get a pass from you?  He's also only two posts behind raerae and liopoil.

[Voltaire]

You are free to have an "actual scumread" on me now.  Thanks for pointing out your previous scumread on me was faked.

Nope not what that means! You sure do seem to misrepresent people a lot. I mean that my vote on you was not because of a scumread at the time (it was a policy vote, so by definition...)

[Voltaire]

And I would call chairs and mcmc lurkers, btw.

Really?  At the time of the post count (and still), Chairs had posted MORE than shraeye.  Why does he get a pass from you?  He's also only two posts behind raerae and liopoil.

Because his posts have been mostly content free. I have pointed this out before.

[ashersky]

And I would call chairs and mcmc lurkers, btw.

Really?  At the time of the post count (and still), Chairs had posted MORE than shraeye.  Why does he get a pass from you?  He's also only two posts behind raerae and liopoil.

Because his posts have been mostly content free. I have pointed this out before.

I can see the actilurking argument for chairs.  Definitely for mcmc.  I don't think there's been any true lurking, though.

[ashersky]

I think shraeye's "there is a sentence in your post that doesn't make sense, therefore the post was highly edited, therefore the author is scum" is wrong on multiple levels.

But do you think it's scum!shraeye grasping at straws or town!shraeye being a bit too ambitious?

Any other thoughts on this exchange and idea?

I think shraeye's point about overedited language being a scum!tell has some validity.  One is less likely to proofread as town than as scum (see yuma's multiple doc=cop problems in Back to Basics).

I think we're more likely to find small mistakes where it looks like a word was omitted than we are nonsense sentences, which was what shraeye was pointing out.

I think overall, it says nothing about shraeye's alignment, given I think shraeye the person believes what he said, not shraeye the town or shraeye the mafia.

[Jimmmmm]

Count 10 people, starting with me.  Guess what, I can hide behind Jimmmmm OR nkirbit.  DO YOU NOT SEE THIS??  HOW WOULD YOU KNOW?

Oh really? That's your problem with the plan?

It's right there: "from my own name, count down the number that is next to my flavour name in the second OP"

If you are at your own name, how many times do you move down to get to your own name? Zero!
If you are 13, and you count down 10, you get to nkirbit. Your name is zero, because you don't count down from your name to get to your name. It's so freaking simple!

Really?  Count down the number next to my flavor name.  Again, let's pick #10.

10
9
8
7
6
5
4
3
2
1
0

Now I've moved 11 spots from my own name.

Oh come on. You're more intelligent than that.

[ashersky]

Count 10 people, starting with me.  Guess what, I can hide behind Jimmmmm OR nkirbit.  DO YOU NOT SEE THIS??  HOW WOULD YOU KNOW?

Oh really? That's your problem with the plan?

It's right there: "from my own name, count down the number that is next to my flavour name in the second OP"

If you are at your own name, how many times do you move down to get to your own name? Zero!
If you are 13, and you count down 10, you get to nkirbit. Your name is zero, because you don't count down from your name to get to your name. It's so freaking simple!

Really?  Count down the number next to my flavor name.  Again, let's pick #10.

10
9
8
7
6
5
4
3
2
1
0

Now I've moved 11 spots from my own name.

Oh come on. You're more intelligent than that.

I might be.  But it is not stupid to think that "count down" means what I just wrote.  Or that scum won't use the argument that maybe the Hider thought that way, so I think scum must be X instead of Y.

[Jimmmmm]

Okay. Well to be clear:

When I say count down, I mean my name is 0. The name below mine (after skipping and/or looping to the top) is 1. The next one is 2. Then 3. Etc. That is what I mean, and if anyone means something different, they should make sure the rest of us know.

Are we perfectly clear now?

[ashersky]

Okay. Well to be clear:

When I say count down, I mean my name is 0. The name below mine (after skipping and/or looping to the top) is 1. The next one is 2. Then 3. Etc. That is what I mean, and if anyone means something different, they should make sure the rest of us know.

Are we perfectly clear now?

Yep.  Are you scum?  Because that'd be pretty funny, you having this argument with me even though you are scum.