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[ashersky]

300 posts into the re-read and I'm basically convinced silverspawn can't be scum.  A short list of references to support a town!silver:

Awaclus reply #155
silverspawn reply #177
Awaclus reply #179
Joseph reply #198
Awaclus reply #199
Awaclus reply #244
silverspawn replies #283, 204

All the interactions with Awaclus don't make sense as partners, especially coming from two players who were just partners previously.  He also basically destroys Joseph's fake cop claim before it can do any good.

I just don't see it.  SS for MVP if he's scum, but he's out of my lynch pool.  I'll keep reading him, of course, and see what comes up.  Funny, as I was pretty annoyed with him on D1 with the fake votes, to the point of tunneling the dude.

[ashersky]

Looking like a Silverspawn/Faust lynch with Joseph taking his cop shot (if he has one) and hoping he doesn't die. If he doesn't die, he's either scum, or the scum are setting him up. If he does die, he's innocent, unless he gets bussed, which isn't very likely and is counter productive.

Or we could, you know, lynch Joseph. Does anyone have serious objections to that?

Yeah, gut feeling I don't think Joseph lies here.  Yes I understand we (likely) get a new unclaimed 1-shot Cop, but is that worth sacrificing a town player for?  Maybe it is, but I have a hard time lynching someone I believe is town for strategic purposes.

And then this after faust asks for further info:

No, and I haven't done any kind of due diligence.  Just the soft-claim thing first.. it read as genuine to me.

Don't look good.

[ashersky]

oh interesting a claim. Hooray for action day 1!

I still see Joseph as scummy but don't see a real reason to lynch him today even if hes 90% scum as it doesn't really hurt us if we keep him alive for one night.

unvote for now.

Someone else quoted this, right?  Also bad.

[sudgy]

I'm probably about 80% certain the last scum is WW or Hydrad, and I think it's Hydrad.  I mean, people haven't found him scummy this game, right? 

Hydrad, what was your most recent town game?

[ashersky]

I feel like I've justified my votes okay, I made it clear that I was voting for you coz of the weird thing with sudgy & chairs, and chairs because he felt the most scummy at the time. I haven't been jumping on loads of wagons, as the only votes I've made are:
ashersky: in the flavour thing, was right at the time, as he was directly challenging me (turned out that all that bit made no sense anyway)
chairs: seemed scummy at the time, but I gradually got less and less confident, until I unvoted.
faust: never actually voted for, but continually said was scummy (except for in 1 post). Why were you so super-supportive of chairs early on, with not much information to use?
I didn't mind claiming because it seemed safe, and I was the person most in trouble anyway. I thought that claiming my role would not disadvantage town too much, and that this would allow the town to not lose their cop. But now it seems I might be lynched anyway, with no guarantee of a UB existing or not being NKed.

You know what's interesting about this (trimmed full post for legibility and important part)?  Comments on ashersky (town), chairs (town), faust (town).  These are all of his votes (or possible votes) up to this point of the game.

He harps on the faust/sudgy thing, which was mostly just sudgy voting faust then immediately switching.

If anything, that makes sudgy look worse, since he uses sudgy's voting action as a tell for faust, not for sudgy.

[ashersky]

"Don't lynch me because I'm town" is always my defense as town, so of course there's nothing wrong with it.

Let's not lynch Joseph today and lynch someone more better.

WW continued his townread on Joseph, now almost 400 replies into the game.

[ashersky]

So, all I need to do to get us a better lynch is convince people I'm town, then if faust's logic is correct, ADK is probably scum. In this case, I think lynching someone who is probably scum would be a good idea.

As I know I'm town, this suggests that ADK is scum, so Vote: ADK.

Although I'm still pretty sure there's a scum lurking around, maybe EgorK, he hasn't posted much and hasn't posted a V/LA.

Why do YOU think ADK is scum?

Well, he's had pretty much the same opinions as me, and so if you think I'm scummy, then surely he should be considered scummy too. So ADK scummy, because he's the same as me, who is apparently scummy. I'm not personally very convinced by this argument, as it relies on me being scummy.

I admit there's not many good scum targets, most people who've posted lots feel towny right now.

I respect fauts for trying to get as much information out of me, seems like a towny thing to do.
chairs is confusing, I feel less scummy about him the more i read.
silverspawn is not scummy enough to lynch right now.
Ashersky seems townie
Lurkers seem scummy to me, would probably be the best option for an alternative wagon.

Short reads list from Joseph -- mentions only faust, chairs, me (town) and silverspawn (who I'm more and more convinced is town).

[ashersky]

This is officially going into the "too scummy/wonky to be scum" territory.

#427, still defending Joseph...

[ashersky]

The longer we go on, the more I want to lynch Joseph...

until

Joseph, do you realize that we probably won't get your shot if you aren't lynched, and we will get your shot if you are lynched?

vote: sudgy for believing Joseph isn't lying -but- still suggesting that means we should lynch him. If you believe Joseph is town, it is a mistake to lynch him.

I recall this catch by chairs (town), which was pretty good.

I'd note that witherweaver votes sudgy in his first post following this.

[ashersky]

If you believe Joseph is town, it is a mistake to lynch him.

Great, finally a clear answer.

I re-read Joseph without Silverspawn's assistance earlier, and I came to the same conclusion as he did, pretty much — I don't think the evidence suggests that Joseph is scum. My favorite lynches right now are faust, sudgy and ashersky. I don't remember why I thought that ashersky was scummy though. Might have been that flavor thing, so it's definitely possible I'll change my opinion about him after I have re-read everything, which I definitely should do. Vote: faust for now.

Does Awaclus include a partner in his trio?

It's sudgy if he does.

[ashersky]

Alright, I reread the earlier chunks of posts.  I want to vote Chairs, but honestly scum most likely checks their PM/setup before making a PM-based accusation like that.  This is mitigated by the self vote, which is sometimes a desperate scum attempt to emulate what town does (hi PPS).


ADK is probably town.  I agree with what he's been saying.

Ash is probably town.

Silver is probably town but needs to cut the hell out of the silly voting.  If we can't tell whether or not your vote counts we can't accurately deduce information or make decisions.  Most antitown thing I've seen in Mafia thus far.  Silver could be going for the "too anti town/scummy to be scum" but I'm inclined to think not here.

I understand the scum reads on Joseph, he was coming off super hedgey.    But new players do that.  I still don't want to lynch him today.

Gut instinct Hydrad is likely town here.  First time ever, so consider this your Christmas present.

Sudgy I still feel good about, and I now think Faust is scummy.  Partly because his reads are opposite mine as I'm reading, and more partly because he's done quite a bit of averting lynches (Chairs, Sudgy).  A lot of confident "this lynch is bad, this lynch is good," stuff.  This is a bit of a combination of white knighting and spreading confusion, as it's hard to pin a partner on you when you've been directing lynches too/from multiple people of different alignments.

I have no idea if that above makes sense, but I'm okay with that.

That new guy that has something that in my memory is a bee I don't think is scummy, but he never answered why he was defending pre-claim Joseph. 

Anyone else in this game?  Oh, Awaclus.  I have nothing there.. seems reasonable, I like his reads from memory.  Null to townish.

I want to lynch Sudgy or Faust.  I want to want to lynch Chairs, but probably not.

Witherweaver Day 1 reads.  Gives one scum a Day 1 pass and the other scum Null to townish.

[ashersky]

Probably doesn't help us much though, as I'm now going to get Nightkilled. at least if you don't lynch me, the chance of hitting scum is higher (3/11 not 3/12)- there are 3 scum, right?

Read this and the few posts preceding it.  This just isn't how fake claims feel.

Vote: Faust

with an honorable mention to EgorK.

And the hits keep on comin'!

[ashersky]

I want to lynch sudgy or faust.

Christmas post Awaclus.

[ashersky]

A note on votes...

Vote count 1.6, reply #444 had both joseph and sudgy at 4 votes.  Joseph had faust, hydrad, sudgy, and ADK.  sudgy had chairs, seprix, WW, and Awaclus.

By vote count 1.7, reply #482, sudgy was down to 1 vote, with WW and Awaclus both moving to EgorK, a wagon started by Joseph!

[ashersky]

I'm warming up to a Seprix lynch now.

Unfortunately that makes me warm down on EgorK.

With 15 hours to deadline and no change to the vote count from 1.7, WW says this.

At about 10 hours to deadline, Hydrad (who is voting Joseph) says this:

To get a lynch through I'll also vote for egork. I think hes kinda scummy anyways

[ashersky]

I changed my mind. Not lynching EgorK. Let's lynch lurkers in the next game or something.

EgorK was a viable option at this point, even that close to deadline.  Could have pushed/nudged it to help save Joseph.  Didn't.

[sudgy]

...Wow.  I never noticed all that stuff from Witherweaver.  That's more than enough for me to Vote: Witherweaver.

[ashersky]

I'd vote for awaclus. I can't remember much of what he's posted in this game, which probably means he's scum.

I doubt Awaclus would go through, and I don't have much of an inclination to vote for him.  I think you're still on Joseph.  Are you okay with Egor too?

Faust: Egor is at L-4, Joseph is at L-3.  Joseph, currently on Egor, obviously won't move to himself.  Seprix indicated he may be back.  I can do Joseph, and Egor will to prevent his lynch.  You would still need one more.

Awaclus: Seprix not going through today; are you still around?

Two hours to go to lynch on D1 and witherweaver still defends Joseph (and Awaclus).

[ashersky]

From there, the last three votes on Joseph are witherweaver, EgorK (Town), then Silverspawn for the hammer.

WW votes with the "I hate how faust's gets his way" thing about an hour before the deadline, putting him to L-2.  EgorK is there about ten minutes later, putting him to L-1.  Three minutes later, WW asks for one of me, Awaclus, and Seprix to show up to avoid a no lynch.

Silverspawn comes in at 5:19 saying he's inclined to hammer.  WW says go for it at 5:27.  Silverspawn hammers at 5:47.  There was only one odd post from Joseph in the meantime.  And D1 ends.

[ashersky]

Other posts of note from D1:

WW: #320 and #464.  Both of these talk about how scum plays and how he plays as scum.  In 464 he talks about talking in the QT before a game.  I tend to think scum are generally a bit more self-aware about being scum and what they do and are likely to talk about it.

sudgy #405 was sort of towny.

[ashersky]

So, after a full re-read of D1 with the knowledge of 2/3s of the scum team plus the ICness of ADK:

--I'm very confident silverspawn is also town.  If he's not, he played D1 in a really counter way.  Like, he would have purposefully be playing against his teammates to get a lot of towncred for now.  I just don't see it.
--Witherweaver looks a lot worse on review.  Posted less than usual, a lot of defending scum.
--sudgy and hydrad didn't post a lot.  At all.  sudgy had one redeeming post, and he was on Joseph for a long time.  Hydrad even longer.

Based on that, my current suspicions list goes:

Witherweaver > sudgy = Hydrad

Which is odd, because I feel fairly okay with witherweaver's doctor claim...

[ashersky]

Okay, just re-read D2.  That was fast.

Witherweaver started the Seprix wagon, based on this:

Vote: EgorK

I've made my decision. Any lynch is better than no lynch, odds-wise. Lurkers tend to be anti-town, whether he lurks or not. He gives little value to the discussion, and either way will be of minimal loss if he is in fact town. It sucks, but the real criminals of Sudgy and Faust are going free. I'm 100% positive they are both scum.

Vote: Seprix

This looked bad yesterday, moreso now given Joseph's alignment.  It was 4-3 Joseph to Egor at this point I think.

Which is funny because, well I just pointed out how witherweaver deflected from Joseph all day.

[ashersky]

Most of the very short day was witherweaver and silverspawn talking about silver's reads.  Based on the way they talked, I'd say they can't both be scum (which we know now anyway).  I'd guess one is, just because I think scum wants to be there when day begins, although both are just active forum users anyway.

[ashersky]

Vote: Seprix as well.

Huge town points to silverspawn for hammering when he could have just let it slip by him "unnoticed".

Sudgy's only post of the day.  Remember, at the time we only knew one scum, and Seprix was town.

If sudgy is scum here, he knows silver is town anyway.  They can't be partners, so he's not trying to prop up a partner.  Anyway, I think that line about silver comes from sudgy of either alignment.

[ashersky]

So we have a lynch before I even got to post?

I guess theres no going back now but quick hammers like this always worry me. Seprix as I think your lynced unless I counted wrong if you have any info with a PR you might want to let us now.

Also ADK you stole chairs hammer.

Hydrad's only post of the day.  Null.