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[mcmcsalot]

I have no idea why I am currently voting for Adk...swapped at work so I can't do too much but I'll be at my parents for the weekend so I can be extra active!

[theorel]

vote: scott_pilgrim to make two equal wagons.

why two equal wagons?

To give people more options in hopes of getting better interactions.

Basically, I'm defaulting to a random lurker-lynch.  I don't find any of the active players to be sufficiently scummy that I really want to lynch them over a lurker.  I don't find any of the lurkers sufficiently scummier than the others to really want to lynch one of them over another.  But maybe some players have actual reasons to prefer one over another (i.e. one is a partner).  In that case, alternate apparently-viable wagons can be useful for gleaning interactions.

vote: scott_pilgrim to make two equal wagons.

why scott over voltaire if your goal is equality and justice for all?

Because scott is in the lurky lurker groups while Voltaire is not.  Also, scott's wagon has Robz and ash, while Voltaire's wagon only has you.  Also also, I remembered that I often have scum-reads on Voltaire when he's town, so I'm trusting that scum-read less, even if I still think the argument is okay generally.

[theorel]

vote: scott_pilgrim to make two equal wagons.

why two equal wagons?

To give people more options in hopes of getting better interactions.

Basically, I'm defaulting to a random lurker-lynch.  I don't find any of the active players to be sufficiently scummy that I really want to lynch them over a lurker.  I don't find any of the lurkers sufficiently scummier than the others to really want to lynch one of them over another.  But maybe some players have actual reasons to prefer one over another (i.e. one is a partner).  In that case, alternate apparently-viable wagons can be useful for gleaning interactions.

vote: scott_pilgrim to make two equal wagons.

why scott over voltaire if your goal is equality and justice for all?

Because scott is in the lurky lurker groups while Voltaire is not.  Also, scott's wagon has Robz and ash, while Voltaire's wagon only has you.  Also also, I remembered that I often have scum-reads on Voltaire when he's town, so I'm trusting that scum-read less, even if I still think the argument is okay generally.

(fixed quote fail)

[sudgy]

Could somebody sum up the cases on scott and Voltaire?

[Robz888]

Could somebody sum up the cases on scott and Voltaire?

Scott: Lurker. When he has contributed, it was a bit too meta and forced.

Voltaire: He egged on some feud between Yuma and I think Teproc.

I'm personally against lynching Voltaire. It's too severe a mistake to make on Day 1, in absence of stronger evidence.

[yuma]

I'm personally against lynching Voltaire. It's too severe a mistake to make on Day 1, in absence of stronger evidence.

And I say no one is above being lynched on day1.

Now there is an argument for lynching lurkers over more active players, but I wouldn't really put voltaire into the active category. He egged the stuff on between us, what else has he done that puts him above scotty or mail-mi.... I can't think of much.

[Voltaire]

Egged on? I had a scum read, I expressed it with a comment, explanation, and vote. What did you want me to do?

[scott_pilgrim]

I just reread most of this game.  My thoughts on each player:

1.   Teproc - Big on no theory talk, I think he cared about it too much regardless of alignment (not necessarily in a bad way, just in a sort of unexpected way).  I think I'm leaning town on him.
2.   XerxesPraelor - Don't remember much from him.  I think he made a few comments earlier on that weren't really indicative of anything.  I would like to hear more from him.
3.   yuma - He has been giving good thoughts on theory discussion and comments on other players, which feel legitimate to me.  Slight town.
4.   Robz888 - Not sure, seems consistent with how he was in DoP and Super Mario, which was scum in the former and town in the latter.  I don't know how to read him...
5.   Voltaire - Something about him feels scummy.  Town reads on a lot of players, I mean I guess 11/15 or 12/15 are town, and then says frustrated yuma is scum yuma which I think is just not true.  Slight scum
6.   jotheonah - Never posted for a while, then when he did I think he basically just said he would post more later.  Which is fine assuming he does find time to post.  I guess I'm leaning town on him, similar to how he responded in Super Mario when people called him out for lurking.
7.   sudgy - I don't remember much from him either...
8.   Axxle - Null
9.   mail-mi - Seems pretty lurky, null
10. theorel - Has provided a lot of useful theory discussion and helped get the game rolling with his big reads post, feels like town to me but I've never played with him before.  Either way I don't think I would lynch him today based on his contributions.
11.  A Drowned Kernel - I agree with other people saying he seems a little different from usual, but I can't pinpoint why.  I think he's slightly scummy because of that but not enough for me to vote him now (I know I hate it when someone votes for me without giving me any reasons I can defend myself against, so I won't do that to him).
12.  AndrewisFTTW - Seems pretty normal, I have not seen him as scum so I don't know if he plays differently then but I guess he feels slightly townie to me.
13.  scott_pilgrim - Obviously town
14.  mcmcsalot - I'm not really sure what to think here.  In the games I've played with him, I've thought he was scum, and he turned out to be town, so I've started learning that whenever I think he's scum, he's actually town.  He seems different in this game, maybe not posting as much or expressing opinions on other players?  Slight scum
15.  ashersky - I have no idea what to think about ash.  He hasn't posted much, which is very different from how he was in Super Mario, where he was scum.  So the difference in playstyle doesn't make him town, since I expect him to be good at changing his playstyle regularly regardless of alignment.  Right now I'm null.

So based on that I could vote Voltaire or maybe mcmc or ADK, but there are still players I don't think we've heard from enough to make an informed decision (yeah I know I haven't been contributing so much either, but hopefully this post will help).

vote: XerxesPraelor

[yuma]

I'll go to vote: scott

only L-3... with so many people it takes 8 to lynch... this might be difficult based off how other games of more than 13 players has gone...

[Robz888]

@Scott:

While I appreciate that effort... it doesn't do much for me. I'm barely going to actually read that post (unless you flip scum: Then I'll scrutinize every word of it). I mean, mostly you're saying "seems X, could by Y, null read..." Which, I don't blame you. There's a lot of people, I feel similarly about most at this point. And early reads are just usually wrong.

I think it's much better to decide on someone you think could actually be scum, or call out specifically scummy behavior, or shout down people advocating lynches of people you have strong town reads on.

Just some advice. And also, a partial explanation of why I find you sort of scummy.

[AndrewisFTTW]

At this point I could vote for whoever. Just like yuma said, 8 is a big number and I realized how difficult it could potentially be to get a lynch through if we don't cooperate. That said, at this point I would like to lynch ADK, Axxle or Scott.

[jotheonah]

At this point I could vote for whoever.

vote: AndrewisFTTW

[jotheonah]

a little too much voting for anybody ITT. what happens then is the easiest lynch gets through. the easiest lynch is rarely on scum.

[AndrewisFTTW]

a little too much voting for anybody ITT. what happens then is the easiest lynch gets through. the easiest lynch is rarely on scum.

If a lot of people present a good case, I'm not going to sit back and refuse to participate. I also don't see a good case on anyone right now so I'm willing to listen.

[Teproc]

Not sure about a scott_pilgrim lynch. I see why people find him scummy, but I thought he was scum in DoP and Super Mario for somewhat similar reasons to those being brought up here... and he was town in both.

However I disagree with Robz about reads posts, and am a little annoyed that Robz doesn't even read them, apparently. I mostly do them because they help me organize my thoughts, but they often provide lots of stuff to respond to. They're also a little tricky to do as scum because you have to be wary of how it will look once some flips have happened.

[yuma]

So one interesting thing I like to look at when lurker lynches come up is which lurkers aren't getting any heat... or at least less heat.

Because if you are scum and are suggesting a lurker lynch I think it less likely you are going to point the arrow at a scummate... Now it is possible that a town member can kinda just randomly point a finger at a scum player so that should be taken into consideration....

So this is mostly a list of which players have been accused of being scummy for lurking and by whom at this point in the game...

So first lets establish who is "lurking" - pre-game included

1.   Teproc - 57 - normal
2.   XerxesPraelor - 9 "lurker"
3.   yuma - 44 - normal
4.   Robz888 - 56 - active Robz! weird
5.   Voltaire - 44 - normal
6.   jotheonah - 18 "lurker"
7.   sudgy - 9 "lurker"
8.   Axxle - 38 - surprised it is this high since I can't remember anything in particular from him
9.   mail-mi - 16 "lurker"
10. theorel - 30 - normal
11.  A Drowned Kernel - 13 "lurker"
12.  AndrewisFTTW - 26 "semi-lurker"
13.  scott_pilgrim - 15 "lurker"
14.  mcmcsalot - 17 "lurker"
15.  ashersky - 32 - low but semi-VLA

So for this purpose I am going to include all the "lurkers" plus Andrew and Axxle:

I think the first discussion of "lurking" begins on post 227 via theorel

Xerxes - votes for lurking
jotheonah - theorel votes; mail=mi votes; scott says to vote him instead; yuma asks about joth; andrew suggests lynching; Robz votes;theo votes joth after mentioning a few others;
sudgy - teproc calls out
Axxle - ADK votes for leaving conversation
mail-mi - teproc calls out; votes for hypocrisy; theorel votes
ADK -  Robz calls out
Andrew - says andrew is non-existent; robz votes;
scott - Robz calls out; joth notes for lurking; mail-mi votes; theo votes for lurking
mcmc

man... the inside of all those quotes gets shrunken down a lot!
Anways... interestingly mcmc has received no flak from not being around much, but I actually do remember a lot of what he has said, so maybe that is fair.

I don't think scum is in scott or joth unvote.

I could see scum more easily in Xerxes, ADK, sudgy or Axxle more so than the rest.

but really the main thing that stuck out to me while I reread is still how scummy I think teproc and voltaire are. I don't know if both are scum, but I feel that one is. There is some buddying going on there that is just uncomfortable--regardless of whether or not there is a history there--and of protecting each other against scumreads and suspicion. It just doesn't feel right to me. I am relatively confident one of them at least is mafia...

People should considering voting one of them!

vote: voltaire

[Voltaire]

but really the main thing that stuck out to me while I reread is still how scummy I think teproc and voltaire are. I don't know if both are scum, but I feel that one is. There is some buddying going on there that is just uncomfortable--regardless of whether or not there is a history there--and of protecting each other against scumreads and suspicion. It just doesn't feel right to me. I am relatively confident one of them at least is mafia...

Really? You're willing to just throw away 1) established meta/history which is real, and 2) the idea that two townies are good at reading each other? (If Teproc thinks I'm town, I honestly forget)

Yuma pointed out how active Robz is and that gives me an even bigger town read on Robz. Which isn't terribly helpful right now.

Looking at post-counts, I'd lurker-lynch...

6.   jotheonah - 18 "lurker"
9.   mail-mi - 16 "lurker"
11.  A Drowned Kernel - 13 "lurker"
13.  scott_pilgrim - 15 "lurker"
14.  mcmcsalot - 17 "lurker"

any of these guys. Though I'd have to re-read SP since he did stuff to get heat apparently as a lurker and that's unusual.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Volt, sudgy and XP are both at 9 votes. If you want to lurkwr-lynch, why not lurker-lynch one of them?

[AndrewisFTTW]

I meant 9 posts.

[yuma]

Really? You're willing to just throw away 1) established meta/history which is real, and 2) the idea that two townies are good at reading each other? (If Teproc thinks I'm town, I honestly forget)

I am saying that a meta-history is soooo easy to hide behind. Or at least it is a convenient place to hide behind and one that I think can be overdone, which is what I think is happening here. And I am not throwing away the idea that you are both townie. I am not convinced I am right--I am not that egocentric to ever believe I have a 100% read on someone--I am considering it, but my consideration right now points me at thinking one of you is scum at least. That is my read...

But you are turning it into something else making out to look the bad guy who is being manipulative or throwing caution to the wind. How do you know I am not considering these things?

[Voltaire]

Because the literally-lowest posters are usually town. I backed this up with data once.

[yuma]

Because the literally-lowest posters are usually town. I backed this up with data once.

I would agree with this assessment as a general data trend

[AndrewisFTTW]

Because the literally-lowest posters are usually town. I backed this up with data once.

Word.

[Voltaire]

But you are turning it into something else making out to look the bad guy who is being manipulative or throwing caution to the wind. How do you know I am not considering these things?

Oh god, this is the most forced thing ever. Yes, yuma, I claimed to read your mind. I totally wrote that. You can quote it and everything!

So you considered it. I'm upset that you appear to have reached the wrong conclusion.

Didn't you say fight like hell if someone thinks one of your town reads is scum and is trying to lynch them? Well, that's me and/or Teproc!

[AndrewisFTTW]

I'd rather lynch Teproc than Volt.