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[mail-mi]

vote count yuma.1

robz (2): mail-mi, voltaire, Walrus
faust (1): chairs
walrus (1): yuma
yuma (1): faust

Not Voting (9): WalrusmcFishSr, Chairs, Robz888, Voltaire, Yuma, EFHW, Mail-mi, Eevee, Faust

so three votes on Robz. Let's see what they were about:

3. Robz888--vote: robz has like 1 post.

I'm down to vote: Robz. Showed up, said an obvious thing, left. Anti-town.

Of the three non-voters that Voltaire mentioned, I find Robz to be the scummiest. At first I thought you were just being Robz!Robz. But the fact that you "coincidentally" showed up when you were mentioned, and that (as Voltaire put it) you are "hanging your hat" on such a minor contribution--well, that doesn't quite sit right with me. vote: Robz--maybe some semblance of a wagon will move things along, or at least get Robz talking more.

I guess my question to these three people is why does what you say, "1 post" being "anti-town" and "hat hanging" equal scummy?

Pressure vote. Anti-town, good 'nuf for a D1 vote. Also, if you're scum, plz quick hammer Robz. If you're scum Robz, then please quick hammer yourself.

[Eevee]

I've been out, announcing intent to catch up during the next couple of hours.

[EFHW]

Well, this is pretty interesting.  It's so early I have no read on Robz.  Everything he has I could him doing as either alignment.  So I don't feel like lynching him, or defending him.  Assuming he would flip town, since that is most likely, what would we have learned about the people voting him?  I'm on phone right now, so I'll try to look at that when I'm on a computer.

[Eevee]

Walrus, I know.. Real life though, at least there weren't more than two pages to come to!

yuma is playing differently than usual, but I like it. Taking an ashersky role, now that he isn't playing?

Voltaire, I don't agree with not voting yet being antitown or scummy. I guess people's opinions on RVS vary, I personally have never been able to gain anything from it.

The wagon on Robz.. hmmh. First of all, I don't like the attitude of "not having to do anything to make it disappear". But, would Robz be so bold as mafia? I can't say he is a townread for me, but I'd expect mafia to be less controversial in their wording of the critique for the wagon. Just playing more pro-town would have been an easier path for Robz, for sure.

[Eevee]

I'd like to plob my vote down somewhere. Walrus's flipflopping on faust sememed like he wants to please the crowd, first finding him scummy but then changing his mind when yuma (?) voiced criticism on his reasons. That's more mafiay behavior in my opinion, especially a newer mafia would want to blend in with the crowd.

vote: walrus

[Voltaire]

But, would Robz be so bold as mafia?

Yes.

[Eevee]

But, would Robz be so bold as mafia?

Yes.

Let me rephrase.

Oversimplified, he has two options. Taking the "it doesn't matter, this won't go through anyways" defense, or taking a more standard "okay, I understand I have undercontributed and apologize.. here is what I think of the current game state" defense. Isn't mafia more likely to pick the second one, instead of intentionally drawing negative attention and upsetting other people in the game?

[Voltaire]

But, would Robz be so bold as mafia?

Yes.

[WalrusMcFishSr]

OK no plurality lynch. Gotcha thanks.

yuma, I think the reasons for voting for Robz have been spelled out, and apparently you didn't take much convincing to hop on board! It was a combination of lurkiness, reactions to people noticing his lurkiness, and just to put on some pressure and get him talking. I agree with Voltaire that this yuma "sheeping" exchange seemed weird but not inherently scummy.

I don't like Robz' assumption that the wagon will just auto-dissipate. The fact that he calls the votes on him "towny" is interesting and it does make me think. So thank you for giving me something to think about. But the idea that it'll just "obviously" break up is quite bold, and it's enough for me to want to keep my vote there for now--based on what I know of Robz, this kind of audacity could easily be scum!play. Robz, what are your reads like right now?

chairs votes for me. I'd like to know the quote you mentioned which prompted that, chairs!

Eevee, I agree that the vote flip-flop-flip was not ideal. Others have mentioned it and I have already explained my reasoning elsewhere. I would personally think that the "path of least resistance" for me in this instance would have been simply to unvote and then vote for somebody else, if I were trying to blend into the crowd. But I didn't feel like doing that; faust was still my primary scumread, and I wanted to help un-stagnate the game by re-voting.

[Robz888]

Walrus, I know.. Real life though, at least there weren't more than two pages to come to!

yuma is playing differently than usual, but I like it. Taking an ashersky role, now that he isn't playing?

Voltaire, I don't agree with not voting yet being antitown or scummy. I guess people's opinions on RVS vary, I personally have never been able to gain anything from it.

The wagon on Robz.. hmmh. First of all, I don't like the attitude of "not having to do anything to make it disappear". But, would Robz be so bold as mafia? I can't say he is a townread for me, but I'd expect mafia to be less controversial in their wording of the critique for the wagon. Just playing more pro-town would have been an easier path for Robz, for sure.

But, would Robz be so bold as mafia?

Yes.

Let me rephrase.

Oversimplified, he has two options. Taking the "it doesn't matter, this won't go through anyways" defense, or taking a more standard "okay, I understand I have undercontributed and apologize.. here is what I think of the current game state" defense. Isn't mafia more likely to pick the second one, instead of intentionally drawing negative attention and upsetting other people in the game?

Just about the only thing that does get on my nerves is being accused of not helping the town enough. I'm helping the town fine. The game hasn't been going for very long, and Eevee hasn't been around at all until now. I absolutely, manifestly do not apologize for anything. I have done nothing wrong, and I'll give more observations when I have them.

As much as you may not like the "I don't have to do anything to dissipate this wagon" atittude, it's the truth. The first wagon never succeeds, a Day 1 wagon against me has very little chance of succeeding, and one with absolutely no evidence has zero chance of succeeding. So, for better or worse, there's nothing I have to do to stop this wagon.

[EFHW]

The wagon on Robz.. hmmh. First of all, I don't like the attitude of "not having to do anything to make it disappear". But, would Robz be so bold as mafia? I can't say he is a townread for me, but I'd expect mafia to be less controversial in their wording of the critique for the wagon. Just playing more pro-town would have been an easier path for Robz, for sure.

This doesn't make sense coming from Eevee who has played with Robz countless times and knows he would absolutely say that as scum or town.  He could be protecting a scumbuddy or looking for towncred vote: Eevee.

[EFHW]

I'm down to vote: Robz. Showed up, said an obvious thing, left. Anti-town.

and then showed up immediately when talked about

Sorry, I had a very busy day yesterday. Wasn't very active on the forums at all.

Agreed. Problem is, this scummy behavior (textbook actilurking) is a nulltell for Robz, as he has established a meta of behaving in this anti-town fashion D1.

If it's a nulltell, then is your vote on him just for pressure? 

[Eevee]

The wagon on Robz.. hmmh. First of all, I don't like the attitude of "not having to do anything to make it disappear". But, would Robz be so bold as mafia? I can't say he is a townread for me, but I'd expect mafia to be less controversial in their wording of the critique for the wagon. Just playing more pro-town would have been an easier path for Robz, for sure.

This doesn't make sense coming from Eevee who has played with Robz countless times and knows he would absolutely say that as scum or town.  He could be protecting a scumbuddy or looking for towncred vote: Eevee.

i think even Robz is less likely to react like that, albeit less than others. Remember, robz cares about his scum games, less so about his town games. Especially true day 1!

[EFHW]

So what are your reasons for thinking Robz is scum, yuma?

I am sheeping your reasoning. The biggest is posting when called out on it.

I think yuma's vote looks scummy-ish.  Voltaire hasn't actually said he thinks Robz is scum, he's said he's being anti-town (I know, not that again!).  Walrus and Eevee both said they didn't think it was scummy for yuma to sheep like that.  That's something to keep in mind.

[Eevee]

yuma has seemed willing to try different, maybe less serious stuff early day 1 lately.

[EFHW]

I've seen Robz say that before.  I don't know what alignment he was then, probably town, but it's so in character (and so true) that this is not a towntell for me at all.  You've played with him even more than I have.

[EFHW]

I also find Walrus scummy-ish for his comments on mail-mi.  It's possible that he isn't familiar enough with how mail-mi plays, but I'm making note of that. 

note: "scummy-ish" means on the border between null and scummy. 

[mail-mi]

The wagon on Robz.. hmmh. First of all, I don't like the attitude of "not having to do anything to make it disappear". But, would Robz be so bold as mafia? I can't say he is a townread for me, but I'd expect mafia to be less controversial in their wording of the critique for the wagon. Just playing more pro-town would have been an easier path for Robz, for sure.

This doesn't make sense coming from Eevee who has played with Robz countless times and knows he would absolutely say that as scum or town.  He could be protecting a scumbuddy or looking for towncred vote: Eevee.

Something to keep note of, for sure.

[yuma]

vote: EFHW

Here is what I am seeing.... she is taking a somewhat similar stance to what theorel took in the last game. (not a perfect comparison, but I think comparable enough) Starting here...

Well, this is pretty interesting.  It's so early I have no read on Robz.  Everything he has I could him doing as either alignment.  So I don't feel like lynching him, or defending him.  Assuming he would flip town, since that is most likely, what would we have learned about the people voting him?  I'm on phone right now, so I'll try to look at that when I'm on a computer.

middle ground stance, stating that robz isn't scummy or townie, but instead more interested in people on the wagon... (same as theorel about sudgy last game)

last game theorel jumped on nkirbit for voting for sudgy. In this game EFHW is instead jumping on eevee for defending robz...

The wagon on Robz.. hmmh. First of all, I don't like the attitude of "not having to do anything to make it disappear". But, would Robz be so bold as mafia? I can't say he is a townread for me, but I'd expect mafia to be less controversial in their wording of the critique for the wagon. Just playing more pro-town would have been an easier path for Robz, for sure.

This doesn't make sense coming from Eevee who has played with Robz countless times and knows he would absolutely say that as scum or town.  He could be protecting a scumbuddy or looking for towncred vote: Eevee.

Right now I am deliberating between posting this and holding off to see where it goes. Because right now I anticipate that if the wagon on Robz stays at ~ L-1 for a while EFHW will starting defending Robz more and more (assuming of course that Robz is town, something I am actually thinking more and more likely... again another reason to move my vote just because a derphammer is always a possibility...) in the same way that theorel over time expressed a town read on sudgy after starting null on him... and also pressing more on eevee. So is seeing if that case builds worth giving town my read right now. I think it is generally always better to tell town what a fellow townie is thinking than to hold back ideas so I'll go with it.

[WalrusMcFishSr]

Yo I'll sheep that.

vote: EFHW

I just did a quick reread of EFHW and there's much less actual content there than I thought. There's quite a few posts, but they're mostly all brief, asking questions, discussing perfunctory matters and vaguely fomenting suspicions. It's all very pleasant, but so non-committal. yuma's most recent post rings true to me, and I find yuma to be quite towny right now.

And then just now EFHW finds me "scummy-ish"^[1] for my comments on mail-mi? What, my one comment on mail-mi, like, 3 pages ago? Why bring that up now? and I still do find mail-mi to be rather scummy actually. His posts are sparse and mostly insubstantial by my estimation. The most substantial thing he's written is that one-liner reads post, right after I called him out actually...very well-timed. Maybe I'm just not familiar with his usual playstyle...but I do know that right now I'm finding it to be fluffy. And we do not abide fluff in Westeros.

In fact I was considering voting for mail-mi just now. Anyone else feeling that? But I thought I'd go for EFHW instead, to use my vote to exert some more real pressure.

Possible EFHW/mail-mi scumteam? Note how EFHW stuck up for mail-mi in her accusation of me seemingly out of the blue, and mail-mi also recently quoted EFHW and said "Something to keep note of, for sure." On my reread, I also noticed that some of the first dialogue of the game was a ""pleasantry"" and ""RVS vote"" exchanged between the two of them. I don't know if they'd be so overt about it though. A tenuous connection perhaps, and possibly magnified by OMGUS, but it's an observation.

And yes Robz, it looks like your wagon has disintegrated somewhat. For now. Maybe you are right, but I did think that the way you expressed yourself came across as off-putting, and I do remain wary.

^[1]Slightly weird that she would specifically define the term scummy-ish here, even after having just used it 2 posts earlier? Barely worth mentioning, which is why this is a footnote lol.

[Robz888]

Remember, robz cares about his scum games, less so about his town games. Especially true day 1!

More lies!

[faust]

Remember, robz cares about his scum games, less so about his town games. Especially true day 1!

More lies!

No lies! The following quote is from the mafia QT of M31:

My challenge is probably going to be finding a blanace. I CANT be too active on Day 1, because basically I just never am. I am way more active on Day 1s when I am scum, because I'm tryin to orchestrate things. As town, I just ignore the game until it gets interesting. So I will probably try to do that again here. Also, I am INCRDIBLY busy for the next few days. But I'm rarely a Day 1 target--I think yuma established that I should basically never ever be killed on Day 1.

Vote: Robz

[Robz888]

Remember, robz cares about his scum games, less so about his town games. Especially true day 1!

More lies!

No lies! The following quote is from the mafia QT of M31:

My challenge is probably going to be finding a blanace. I CANT be too active on Day 1, because basically I just never am. I am way more active on Day 1s when I am scum, because I'm tryin to orchestrate things. As town, I just ignore the game until it gets interesting. So I will probably try to do that again here. Also, I am INCRDIBLY busy for the next few days. But I'm rarely a Day 1 target--I think yuma established that I should basically never ever be killed on Day 1.

Vote: Robz

I am less likely to put in a lot of work on Day 1 as town, yes this is true. I don't care less about winning, as Eevee implied. Furthermore, I'm doing stuff, and usually do some stuff anyway, I just worry that I have a scumtell of being around a lot on Day 1 when scum.

[faust]

Readsreadsreads.

1. WalrusMcFishSr - is more active than usual. Which is fine by itself, but the fact that at the same time he calls me out for being more active seems weird. Also the way he votes raises my suspicion (voting/unvoting me, sheeping cases on Robz and EFHW). Seems scummy overall.

2. Chairs - I actually liked the way he reacted to the BP issue: he stated that it could be a scum ploy having me come out with it, which is wrong, but a good line of thinking for town. So I have a slight town read.

3. Robz888 - well, his lurky/anti-town behaviour doesn't give away much. But the fact that he calls an observation about his playstyle a "lie" when he knows it's true - that's just a scum tell for me. And I don't buy that he misunderstood Eevee here.

4. Voltaire - not much, seems his usual town self. Slight slight town read.

5. Yuma - it's just hard for me to read him. But he seems to be a driving force, so I don't want him lynched D1.

6. EFHW - the case on her is not strong, I think. But her posts seemed to be lacking content to me before. Slight scum.

7. Mail-Mi - is his usual, lurky self. Null read.

8. Eevee - Also pretty null for me, no posts really stand out.

9. Faust - town!

[Eevee]

I don't remember walrus asking for town's permission on his suspicions in modern community (where he was town), can anyone confirm? I think his tone here is very different. Wanting to please the crowd and have someone validate your "suspicions" before committing to them is a pretty well working scum tell, especially for newer scum. I even remember making posts like that as scum in my first game - I remember because someone called me out on it, I think it was robz.

I'm on phone, so I just snipped the parts I was referring to in his earlier post.
A lot of suspicion flying in sentences that end in question marks!

In fact I was considering voting for mail-mi just now. Anyone else feeling that? But I thought I'd go for EFHW instead, to use my vote to exert some more real pressure.

Possible EFHW/mail-mi scumteam?

^[1]Slightly weird that she would specifically define the term scummy-ish here, even after having just used it 2 posts earlier? Barely worth mentioning, which is why this is a footnote lol.