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Tombolo

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I will try to post a game here every day.
« on: July 04, 2012, 12:55:44 am »
+3

I want to get better at this game.  I'm currently hovering around the upper teens, but I seem to have plateaued.  Therefore, when I am able, I will try to pick one interesting game a day (or maybe more) to post here, give my thoughts, and see what you guys have to say about it.  Even if I don't get tons of feedback, organizing my thoughts and formally presenting them should be helpful for me!

In which I fail to respect Mountebank: This post
In which Minions don't work well if you lose at Amb Tennis: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=3269.msg60066#msg60066
In which OMAGAW CITIES: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=3269.msg60664#msg60664
In which I manage to wind up with a bloated deck in a chapel game: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=3269.msg61208#msg61208
In which I fail to rush Silk Road: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=3269.msg61586#msg61586
In which I don't even know with the Jesters: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=3269.msg62433#msg62433
In which (spoilers) Governor and Chapel make games go quickly: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=3269.msg62713#msg62713
In which we are introduced to my tunnel obsession: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=3269.msg63324#msg63324
In which the megaturn never happen: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=3269.msg63886#msg63886
In which the third pile does not in fact magically drain itself: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=3269.msg64532#msg64532
In which a desperation Duke rush actually works: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=3269.msg64906#msg64906
In which we are introduced to my Hoard obsession: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=3269.msg65181#msg65181
In which Forge bogs down the Minion fight: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=3269.msg65489#msg65489
In which $4 cards vie for supremacy on an IGG-decimated battlefield: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=3269.msg66718#msg66718
In which I hand out all 10 Curses and still barely Goons my way to victory: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=3269.msg66858#msg66858
In which I win commandingly and have no idea how: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=3269.msg67650#msg67650
In which Goons fail me: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=3269.msg68618#msg68618
In which "rush" is a relative term: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=3269.msg69023#msg69023
In which Trader saves the world: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?action=post;quote=69636;topic=3269.50
In which you can't have Fool's Gold without Fools: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=3269.msg70564#msg70564
In which Possession makes for weird games: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=3269.msg72232#msg72232
In which we go from almost dead to piledriving Provinces: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=3269.msg73506#msg73506
In which I am already dead: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=3269.msg74469#msg74469
In which we come back from a lull with awkward Vineyards: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=3269.msg77285#msg77285
In which you can also play with THREE players: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=3269.msg80020#msg80020
In which we SUCCEED at rushing Peddlers and FAIL at doing anything with them: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=3269.msg80317#msg80317
In which Possession outrushes Masquerade: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=3269.msg82427#msg82427
In which Gardens awkwardly slogs to victory: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=3269.msg83922#msg83922
In which Grand Market fanboyism barely avoids a loss: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=3269.msg84630#msg84630
In which there are too many alt VP cards: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=3269.msg91175#msg91175
In which even hated cards can win games: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=3269.msg92765#msg92765
In which, no, Scout and Thief are still kinda weak: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=3269.msg94140#msg94140
In which we return from hiatus with a random Highway game!: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=3269.msg119056#msg119056
In which there are too many of my favorite cards: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=3269.msg119233#msg119233
In which I still don't know how to run Vineyards: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=3269.msg121796#msg121796
In which Minions don't actually automatically win: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=3269.msg122609#msg122609
In which flailing vaguely at a botched plan sometimes works out: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=3269.new#new
In which terminal draw does not mean you should load up on more terminals you can draw: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=3269.msg125525#msg125525
In which "Amb" looks really weird if you type it enough: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=3269.msg126580#msg126580
In which Governor fails to impress: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=3269.msg127180#msg127180
In which what do you MEAN I don't automatically win with a sweet 5/2?: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=3269.msg128667#msg128667
In which I try my hand at Double Tac: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=3269.msg130931#msg130931
In which they all laughed at IW/Gardens but I SHOWED THEM who is laughable!: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=3269.msg132095#msg132095
In which I somehow beat my friend at his own game: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=3269.msg134244#msg134244
In which, not gonna lie, I partially just wanna show off IW/VY: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=3269.msg135721#msg135721
In which Upgrade Complete!: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=3269.msg136384#msg136384
In which a pseudo-mirror match ends in a 59-3 loss: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=3269.msg138462#msg138462
In which YW is the star of a Golem/Tunnel deck: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=3269.msg139702#msg139702
In which hey look more IW rushing: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=3269.msg140604#msg140604
In which GOKO?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! also new expansions: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=3269.msg257090#msg257090
In which babby's first feodum rush: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=3269.msg259295#msg259295
[and then a very long break happened]
In which we build a weird discard engine: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=3269.msg752008#msg752008
In which our strategy is "all of these cards look nice": http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=3269.msg752034#msg752034

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201207/03/game-20120703-214811-04b2ed34.html

What I went for: Golem/Oasis/Scheme to power Peddlers, and Mountebank as a kicker.
What he went for: Mountebank/Scheme
What I wound up with: Unfocused Fairgrounds deck with HoP

Sadly, his internet cut out in endgame, so I'm not actually sure who would've taken it.  I didn't expect to get that many Fairgrounds, so I had no exit strategy for ending the game, but it looks like his engine was petering out pretty badly.

I think my entire premise was flawed here.  Golem, Oasis, and Scheme are a decent enough Peddler engine...except for the complete lack of +Buy.  I try to remedy this later on with HoP, but have issues actually hitting it right.  I realized I stumbled into a decent Fairgrounds setup and switched gears to that, but then I couldn't trash my HoP, and the money never worked out right.  I don't think Bureaucrat was worth it at all, and I would've been better served trying harder to get an early Mountebank.  Similarly, Scheme was a better idea than Oasis, but at least they both fueled Fairgrounds.  By the time my deck got off the ground, though, it was pretty much too late to catch up.  I would've liked more Golems.

On turn X, should I have Schemed the Mountebank instead of the Golem?  Golem's pretty nice, and I figured it had a decent chance of hitting Mountebank anyway, but Mountebank...is Mountebank.

I don't understand why he kept buying Estates.  I feel like he had me beat all game and I lucked into a comeback.

If I had it to do again: I'd open with some combination of Silver and Scheme, skip Peddler unless I luck into it at $4, and just go for Scheme/Mountebank, with maybe some Farmlands to defend against Mount.  Maybe go for 4 VP Fairgrounds as well, maybe not.  Golem....maybe later than I went for it, but probably not.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2018, 10:05:27 am by Tombolo »
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jonts26

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Re: I will try to post a game here every day.
« Reply #1 on: July 04, 2012, 01:24:57 am »
0

So let's take this at a somewhat high level first. You recognize the power of mountebank and the scheme/golem combo. Golem engines can be a bit slow to set up, but with mountebank for attack and Fairgrounds for alt VP you have plenty of time. So I think you were right to go for them. So the question to ask yourself before you even start the game, is how do I get to where I want to be. Now, Golem by itself is useless. You need other actions first. And as is the case with most strong attacks, you want to get them ASAP. So your first priority should be Mountebank. And the best way to do that on this board, is opening silver/silver. I know it's boring but it's close to a gaurantee of getting mountebank on turn 3 or 4.

Once you have your mountebank, you want to focus on grabbing schemes and a potion. Cause now that you have that action you want to spam as much as possible, you can set up the golem engine. You're still going to want some silvers, so don't go too crazy on the schemes. But use them initially to put back Mountebank to play it early and often, drowning the other player. Once you get a Golem, start replacing that every turn. With a handful of schemes and Golems you can basically fire reliably every single turn.

There are some other cards to consider like peddler and oasis. But really, Golem often works best when you only have a few actions you want to spam repeatedly. And you want either shceme or silver over oasis. And with no +buy, peddler becomes very weak.

So now you have your Golem/Scheme/Mountebank  engine working, how do you score points? Well you have two main options: Provinces and Fairgrounds. First ask yourself how well 15 unique cards will work in your deck. In this game you already have a lot of unique cards from your engine so it's probably easy to get Fairgrounds up to 15. And with all the mountebank attacking it's much easier to buy Fairgrounds at $6 than Provinces at $8.

Ulitmately, if you can mountebank the other guy harder and buy your 6vp victory card for cheaper? You'll be doing just fine.
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carstimon

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Re: I will try to post a game here every day.
« Reply #2 on: July 04, 2012, 01:49:40 am »
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Yeah, peddler is not really worth it without +buy.  As you say, you can pick it up at $4 if you're lucky.  But really it's not worth buying a card you normally wouldn't bother with (oasis) to get it.

I really like golem here:
-Mountebank => long game, good for golem
-Scheme is really nice with golem.

I also like fairgrounds here:
-Once again mountebank => long game so you can pick up stuff
-If you're getting golem that means you have potion, and you're definitely getting cures.  That means you only need 7 of the kingdom cards to get 6 point fairgrounds.  I'd skip Bureaucrat and thief.  Maybe farmland or HoP.

I'm not sure about the bureaucrat.  Maybe having the extra silvers would be nice but it's usually not that useful.  I think you should usally scheme golem over mountebank, with the hope that losing the curse/copper war won't be a big deal if you have lots of nice golems schemed.

So I'd open silver/silver or silver/oasis and hopefuly get mountebank turn 3 or 4.  Then get a potion and schemes and golems.  I think with second $5 grab a HoP to try to get more schemes.

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Davio

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Re: I will try to post a game here every day.
« Reply #3 on: July 04, 2012, 04:13:04 am »
+1

Jonts, you advised to get a couple of Schemes.

Would it also be good to just stick with 1 of each: 1 Golem, 1 Scheme, 1 Mountebank.
Then, barring that you start with all 3 in hand, you can play the Golem into Scheme and Mountebank and put Golem back every hand.

This lets you spend some extra $3's on Silvers.
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Tombolo

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Re: I will try to post a game here every day.
« Reply #4 on: July 04, 2012, 11:44:20 am »
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Hm, yeah, I always forget to trim my actions with Golem.  I'm smart enough to shy away from stuff like Lookout that has a decent chance of hurting me, but not smart enough to avoid cute little cantrips when I'm really trying to run golem/power.

In this game, I get mauled by double amb:
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201207/04/game-20120704-082412-33d9d780.html

What I went for: Minion/Festival/BV/Amb
What he went for: Double Amb
What I wound up with: Watered down Minion/Black Market and a bunch of junk.

I opened Amb/BM and am not convinced that was wrong.  The idea was that Amb would keep my deck moderately trim, while BM would help me get to 5 almost as well as Silver, and combo nicely with my +action/minion plans. (Play treasure, discard and draw)  I thought I had hit the jackpot when I got a turn 3 Mountbank in a game with no cursers, but as you can see, that wound up backfiring horribly against Double Amb.  My deck got far too junked for minion to work right, and I rarely managed to hit a village, terminal, and minion together.  I tried to cobble together something with the remaining Black Market cards towards the end (Was hoping for Chapel and Lighthouse, but Steward worked) but by then I had obviously already lost.

My questions:
-Should I have opened something else to rush Minion faster?
-At what point should I have given up on the Minion idea?
-Should I have gone double Amb earlier than I did?
-Was BM a bad buy?
-Was Mountebank?
-Do people frequently shift strategies mid-game?  I frequently find myself doing so when something doesn't work out, or my deck slingshots faster than expected, or somesuch.  I feel like I should be able to predict such things better, but maybe flexibility is an asset.
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DStu

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Re: I will try to post a game here every day.
« Reply #5 on: July 04, 2012, 12:00:43 pm »
0

-Should I have opened something else to rush Minion faster?
-At what point should I have given up on the Minion idea?
-Should I have gone double Amb earlier than I did?
-Was BM a bad buy?
-Was Mountebank?
-Do people frequently shift strategies mid-game?  I frequently find myself doing so when something doesn't work out, or my deck slingshots faster than expected, or somesuch.  I feel like I should be able to predict such things better, but maybe flexibility is an asset.

So my thoughts: You can't play a simple Minion chain against an Ambassador, you have to win the tennis first, otherwise the chain will not work with 5 Estates and 11 Coppers or so. So Ambassador is right, BM is not necessarily wrong, there seem to be nice things in it. Even the Minion is not necessarily wrong, but you should use it for cycling in the beginning. You WANT to win the tennis. You might want Minions later, and if you get $5, take them, they also help you in the beginning if you play them right.  Take the $2 when it's with Ambassador in the hand and play Ambassador, use for cycling when not to find the Ambassador.  Mountebank also might help you to win the tennis, after all these are 2 more cards your opponent has to get rid of.
You want as less money as possible in this scenario, the Minions give some money, the BM gives some, you want to play your terminals, so you want Villages. As many as possible. You have Ambassador, BM, MB until here. Maybe a second Ambassador at some time to keep pace. Silver clogs your deck, your target is $5 or $6 (for free Villages) for a long time, so take Villages for $3 to play these terminals. They are all powerfull.
Conspirator at $4 later is also a cheap target, with many Villages they should almost always work. So you really don't need to care for Silver. Care for a slim deck to play Ambassador/MB as often as possible, and for the Minions to collide as much as possible. Festivals I would only take for the buy, you have better sources for both actions and the money, so 1-2 Festivals are good to get all these cheap components later, but not more.
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jonts26

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Re: I will try to post a game here every day.
« Reply #6 on: July 04, 2012, 12:34:44 pm »
0

Jonts, you advised to get a couple of Schemes.

Would it also be good to just stick with 1 of each: 1 Golem, 1 Scheme, 1 Mountebank.
Then, barring that you start with all 3 in hand, you can play the Golem into Scheme and Mountebank and put Golem back every hand.

This lets you spend some extra $3's on Silvers.

Yeah, that works pretty well. You can also do the variation with 2 golems, 3 schemes, 2 Mounebanks. Use the schemes to topdeck both Golems and a MB. Your two Golems either hit Scheme/Scheme or Scheme/MB, then play the MB from hand.

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DG

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Re: I will try to post a game here every day.
« Reply #7 on: July 04, 2012, 12:47:30 pm »
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For the second game you don't have to look too far from how your opponent played. Minions and conspirators are only strong when you can guarantee the drawing to make use of them. As soon as your deck expanded beyond control it could never be recovered and your good cards were going to be lost amongst the bad ones.
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ftl

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Re: I will try to post a game here every day.
« Reply #8 on: July 04, 2012, 03:53:13 pm »
+2

Hm, yeah, I always forget to trim my actions with Golem.  I'm smart enough to shy away from stuff like Lookout that has a decent chance of hurting me, but not smart enough to avoid cute little cantrips when I'm really trying to run golem/power.

In this game, I get mauled by double amb:
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201207/04/game-20120704-082412-33d9d780.html

What I went for: Minion/Festival/BV/Amb
What he went for: Double Amb
What I wound up with: Watered down Minion/Black Market and a bunch of junk.

I opened Amb/BM and am not convinced that was wrong.  The idea was that Amb would keep my deck moderately trim, while BM would help me get to 5 almost as well as Silver, and combo nicely with my +action/minion plans. (Play treasure, discard and draw)  I thought I had hit the jackpot when I got a turn 3 Mountbank in a game with no cursers, but as you can see, that wound up backfiring horribly against Double Amb.  My deck got far too junked for minion to work right, and I rarely managed to hit a village, terminal, and minion together.  I tried to cobble together something with the remaining Black Market cards towards the end (Was hoping for Chapel and Lighthouse, but Steward worked) but by then I had obviously already lost.

When playing ambs, the number isn't the important bit; what's important is what you're doing with them. Single amb plays very differently depending on whether your opponent went no-amb, 1-amb, or 2-amb!

Single amb against double amb means you are NOT trimming your deck down very much at all; and for a Minion/Conspirator/Festival engine, you need a trim deck. If you want a trim deck, you have to win or tie the amb tennis, so you have to get a second amb. The question is whether to get it immediately (amb/amb) or on the first shuffle (open amb/silver/amb). If there was a race to some key card, then maybe it's worth putting aside the ambs to get more of them, but here, the minion race isn't game-breaking - the board supports a conspirator deck just as well as a minion deck, I'd much rather lose the minion race but win the amb war, which is what your opponent did.

I think the Black Market isn't necessary here. What are you going to pull out of the black market that'll make a difference? The board already has super-powerful trashing (amb), pulling discard attacks isn't that big of a deal (minion) though it still could be annoying, pulling cursers out of the black market isn't a big deal (amb, again). It'll basically be a terminal silver that occasionally clashes with your ambs, and sometimes tempts you to buy things you don't actually need. You could aim for a Village/BM/Minion combo - but this board doesn't have the card draw necessary to make that happen. You have to draw all three of those in a single 4-card hand to make use of the combo. And you probably want to amb away all of your treasures anyway, so the BM playing treasures won't even come in that handy a lot of the time. An activated conspirator is probably better than a black market.

Quote
My questions:
-Should I have opened something else to rush Minion faster?

Amb/silver instead of Amb/black market, IMO, but it didn't matter, you didn't get collisions, so that was okay.

Quote
-At what point should I have given up on the Minion idea?

Didn't matter. Any engine here was going to beat any available BM+X here, and an engine here had to win the amb war to get going since the card-draw was minion and conspirator and villages, neither of which work so well in junked decks. The details of whether you went for Minions or Conspirators mattered far less than the fact that at the end of the game, your opponent's only non-engine cards were his 8 provinces and 2 coppers, whereas you had 9 curses and 24 treasures in addition to 3estates.

Quote
-Should I have gone double Amb earlier than I did?

Yes. Your turn 4 buy should have been an Amb.

Quote
-Was BM a bad buy?

I would think so, thought others might disagree. You needed 2 ambs early, and if you had actually gotten two ambs, the black market would have been one too many terminals. You don't really want silver either, but I think it's better at getting your early economy started than BM, because you can have turns where you amb away two coppers, and still have a silver and copper in hand to buy a village or another silver or something.

Quote
-Was Mountebank?

If it was just a question of whether a mountebank is good to have, that's hard to answer. It clogs your opponents deck up even better than ambing, but it doesnt' clear up your own. Good to have...

But what I AM pretty sure of is that you wanted a second amb pretty early, and that opening amb/bm/mountebank/amb would have been too many terminals to open with in a row, so at least one of those middle two had to go. So once you got the black market, I think turn 3 had to be a Minion, so turn 4 could be another amb, leaving you with 3 terminals.

Quote
-Do people frequently shift strategies mid-game?  I frequently find myself doing so when something doesn't work out, or my deck slingshots faster than expected, or somesuch.  I feel like I should be able to predict such things better, but maybe flexibility is an asset.

Not here. Whatever the end target was, it had to be a trim deck instead of a bloated one.
 
« Last Edit: July 04, 2012, 03:54:56 pm by ftl »
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Tombolo

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Re: I will try to post a game here every day.
« Reply #9 on: July 05, 2012, 12:52:05 pm »
0

As I suspected.  Ah well.

Here's one I actually won!
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201207/05/game-20120705-093507-ab2f66ef.html

What I went for: Familiar/Golem/Tunnel, with some Rabbles thrown in
What he went for: Warehouse/Tunnel and Uni/Rabble
What I wound up with: Familiar/City/Rabble

I was trying to go for a Potion deck, as I am very fond of all three of those cards.  I lacked the +Buy, but crossed my fingers that it wouldn't be an issue.  I completely spaced out on the potential of Tunnel/Warehouse, intending to pick up Tunnels later and hit them with Golem, but I'm not sure it was a bad thing, as I was able to hit Familiar on Turn 4.  I had my heart set on a good Golem deck, which is why I passed up Pearl Diver once or twice, but I never actually hit the 4P. 

I think one of my biggest weaknesses is my lack of board awareness, and it comes up twice here, although it worked out.  (Thrice if you count failing to connect the dots on Warehouse/Tunnel...I've even played that combo a few times >_>)  I didn't realize "hey curse game" until midgame, else more of those Rabbles would've been Cities.  I also didn't realize until near the end how close we already were to three-piling.  I picked up a Province for safety, and it won me the game, but I felt like I was cutting it close.

My questions here:
-Should I have gone harder on Cities?  I mixed some Rabbles in just to have terminals and draw, but those Cities activated pretty quickly.  Then again, I split them 7-3 anyway, so....
-Should I have greened sooner?....later?
-Should I have gotten more Tunnels?
-Did I need that many Rabbles?
-Would Pearl Diver have been worth it if I'd eventually gotten a Golem?

I also updated the first post with links to the actual game posts!
« Last Edit: July 05, 2012, 01:01:14 pm by Tombolo »
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DG

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Re: I will try to post a game here every day.
« Reply #10 on: July 05, 2012, 01:44:26 pm »
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You got the start right but yes you could have skipped silver and used more warehouses and tunnels. Cities did become more important than rabbles.

The pearl divers are probably worse if you have a golem. You want your golem to play good actions and plough through your deck turning over tunnels. On balance you were probably right not to buy them. A counting house with extra copper is an alternative but perhaps someone else could say whether that might be better or worse than tunnels. The warehouse supports both.
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Insomniac

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Re: I will try to post a game here every day.
« Reply #11 on: July 05, 2012, 01:50:47 pm »
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One thing I've only started to pick up on with cities is that there good in games with cursers (duh) but not just because a pile runs out quickly and the game goes longer. Because theoretically you have the ability to curse your opponent, one of the biggest draw backs of cities is that the person who empties a pile turns up the power on their opponents cities on the next turn. but suppose you have a hand of

City,City,City,Witch, Estate. (and the curses are at 1 as are the cities)

Play the city, play the witch, now your other cities are level 2. Your opponent in that case still gets better power on average (if even split they have 5 lvl 2s to your 4 lvl2s and a lvl1) but with a familiar its even more true as you can play it and trigger all your cities.

This is also something to be aware of in that it might be worth not putting the curse pile to 1 if your opponent can give you that curse and has cities
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Tombolo

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Re: I will try to post a game here every day.
« Reply #12 on: July 06, 2012, 02:54:16 pm »
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Never really thought of that with Cities and Curses!  I'll have to pay more attention to that.

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201207/06/game-20120706-114139-cea36bf9.html

What I went for: Cursing/Chapel
What he went for: Cursing/Chapel
What I wound up with: ...Markets?

This was one of those weird games where there were a lot of options and I couldn't really focus or pick out a cohesive strategy.  I suffered a lot from terminal clash, even with all my WV, and I had a hard time prioritizing.  I decided to come down a bit heavier on the attack side and lighter on the trimming, and wound up with a deck more bloated than I would've liked.

-Should I have chapelled harder?  A couple of times I had the opportunity to chapel something like 3 coppers and an estate, but on most of those turns I decided to leave myself enough coin for a silver.  I've had one too many games where I got a bit too happy with Chapel and wound up having to buy coppers, and Sea Hag wasn't gonna help.
-Was Sea Hag the proper open?  I figured I wanted to get cursing early....but did that matter much with Chapel out and Feast available?  Would it have been better to hold out for Mountebank?
-Was it just me or was my shuffle luck kinda weak?
-Chapel clashed a lot with my attacks.  Did I make the right call to attack first and chapel later?
-Was Jester a good buy?  I feel like it didn't do tons for me, but I thought it'd go nicely against a trimmed deck, and I didn't think I needed another Mountebank with curses draining.  My other option was Market, I guess, but I didn't want those until late game when the attacks were all weak.
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gman314

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Re: I will try to post a game here every day.
« Reply #13 on: July 06, 2012, 03:38:06 pm »
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-Should I have chapelled harder?  A couple of times I had the opportunity to chapel something like 3 coppers and an estate, but on most of those turns I decided to leave myself enough coin for a silver.  I've had one too many games where I got a bit too happy with Chapel and wound up having to buy coppers, and Sea Hag wasn't gonna help.
-Was Sea Hag the proper open?  I figured I wanted to get cursing early....but did that matter much with Chapel out and Feast available?  Would it have been better to hold out for Mountebank?
-Was it just me or was my shuffle luck kinda weak?
-Chapel clashed a lot with my attacks.  Did I make the right call to attack first and chapel later?
-Was Jester a good buy?  I feel like it didn't do tons for me, but I thought it'd go nicely against a trimmed deck, and I didn't think I needed another Mountebank with curses draining.  My other option was Market, I guess, but I didn't want those until late game when the attacks were all weak.

In the first few turns, it's best to chapel as hard as you can. However, with a pile of cursing and a chapeled deck, you need to get silver quickly. I would prioritize that over early Terminals and even over an early village. But, I would prioritize trashing over buying silver so that your chapel can find curses later on.

Early cursing is awesome. Get on it right away. Even if curses will be Chapeled, that could mean another terminal isn't being played (maybe even a curser!), or that some of his coppers and estates aren't being trashed. I'd say that Sea Hag's presence makes Mountebank weaker as you're more likely to draw a curse to discard. Then, once the curses are gone, coppers will hurt a bit, but the game will be close to done. And remember, you can always trash your Sea Hag (or both if you buy a second) if it's becoming a dead weight. And buying Sea Hag is faster than putting the cursing off by buying a Feast.

I didn't read the log thoroughly enough for shuffle luck, but that could have been a factor.

I generally go with Attack first, chapel later because that gives the other guy more of the curses.

Jester probably could have been purchased before the Mountebank IMO. The Jester would possible give some curses but could also skip the other player's attacks and give you more attacks.
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Tombolo

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Re: I will try to post a game here every day.
« Reply #14 on: July 07, 2012, 03:44:29 pm »
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Hm, okay.

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201207/07/game-20120707-123406-9c9014ca.html

What I went for: City/Baron -> Great Hall/Silk Road/Duke
What he went for: Peddler/City
What I wound up with: ...Actually what I wanted, for once.

I got out-rushed here.  Was considering trying to work in Duke, but by the time I started really greening, he was already on Provinces, and I figured Silk Roads were the higher priority.  I figured Great Halls were good in the opening...I wouldn't normally go for them, but with a Silk Road deck (and Peddler!) I figured why not.  I grabbed a few Peddlers when the money and buys worked out right.

I think my big mistake was not taking that last City.  I wanted to avoid giving him an extra turn with Lv. 3, but looking at the logs I had more than I thought, so maybe that wasn't so important.  I really needed more +Buy sooner, too, as I wasn't cycling and hitting Baron as often as I'd hoped.  A Market or two somehwere in there would've helped as well.

My questions:
-I grabbed a Province Turn 9 as insurance against piles sneaking up on me.  That's probably too early, right?
-Should I have taken the last City sooner?
-Was continuing Silk Roads a bad idea when the game was close to three-piling and I was still down?
-Should I have gone City or Market instead of Gold on turn 12?
-....This WAS a good silk road board, right?  I feel like I shouldn't have lost to Provinces, so I probably boogered up something.
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jonts26

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Re: I will try to post a game here every day.
« Reply #15 on: July 07, 2012, 04:18:05 pm »
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Baron/Silk Road/Duke seems to be the best plan here. I personally think I would have avoided cities altogether. By the time they are actually worth anything a dedicated duke/silk road strategy should have a huge point lead. If you want to be really clever about it, just get several piles, like silk road and duchy and estates very low but don't drain them. That way you avoid powering up the cities at all and force the other guy to take green cards. Then once all three piles are take just a few turns to finish them off.

Also you probably can ignore provinces too. Get duchies even with $8+ since you plan on dukes being a large part of your points.
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carstimon

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Re: I will try to post a game here every day.
« Reply #16 on: July 07, 2012, 05:58:05 pm »
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I really don't like early great halls.  Here's my analysis:
It certainly sounds scary to not race for the great halls.  If he gets 8, and you get 0 instead of 4-4,  assuming all the silk roads get taken, that's about a 8+8*4 = 40 vp swing.
But you buy 4 great halls in your first 5 turns.  By turn 5, here's your deck as it matters for being able to buy stuff: 7 coppers, 3 estates, a peddler, and a baron.  Ok, so the great halls help you buy peddler... if you line them up with baron.  You would be much better off with markets, which you could get if you had silver or on turn 3. (yeah you're giving up peddler now for peddler later...  market is better than peddler and you don't need the great hall)
Plus, you actually don't have to race him for great halls.  You can pick them up later with extra buy, it's ok.  Or maybe he buys 8 great halls by turn 10... and then he's really stuck!

Also, I think you should've gotten a tactician maybe like turn 12 (which is late, but both your decks started late because of the great halls).  When you have +2 cities and baron and peddlers sometimes you'll get a $4 or $5 turn then tactician, and the tactician turn will almost always be twice as good on this board.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2012, 09:47:57 am by carstimon »
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Tombolo

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Re: I will try to post a game here every day.
« Reply #17 on: July 08, 2012, 10:25:36 am »
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I...honestly kinda forgot Tactician was there after I skipped him the first time or two I hit $5.  I'm so used to getting Tac no matter what that it threw me, I guess.

So then, IS there a time where early Great Halls are good?  There are a few more things I can think of that would have upped their value (Scrying Pool, KC/all terminals, Conspirator, lol Scout) but if Silk Road/Peddler (and City, I guess?) isn't enough to make them viable to rush early, what if anything does?
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Powerman

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Re: I will try to post a game here every day.
« Reply #18 on: July 08, 2012, 10:26:45 am »
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I really don't like the GH opening.  It just doesn't help you get where you want to go quick enough.  Especially because on this board (low cost VP plus peddlers) you want +Buy and lots of them.
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ehunt

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Re: I will try to post a game here every day.
« Reply #19 on: July 08, 2012, 11:38:33 am »
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Hm, okay.

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201207/07/game-20120707-123406-9c9014ca.html

What I went for: City/Baron -> Great Hall/Silk Road/Duke
What he went for: Peddler/City
What I wound up with: ...Actually what I wanted, for once.

I got out-rushed here.  Was considering trying to work in Duke, but by the time I started really greening, he was already on Provinces, and I figured Silk Roads were the higher priority.  I figured Great Halls were good in the opening...I wouldn't normally go for them, but with a Silk Road deck (and Peddler!) I figured why not.  I grabbed a few Peddlers when the money and buys worked out right.

I think my big mistake was not taking that last City.  I wanted to avoid giving him an extra turn with Lv. 3, but looking at the logs I had more than I thought, so maybe that wasn't so important.  I really needed more +Buy sooner, too, as I wasn't cycling and hitting Baron as often as I'd hoped.  A Market or two somehwere in there would've helped as well.

My questions:
-I grabbed a Province Turn 9 as insurance against piles sneaking up on me.  That's probably too early, right?
-Should I have taken the last City sooner?
-Was continuing Silk Roads a bad idea when the game was close to three-piling and I was still down?
-Should I have gone City or Market instead of Gold on turn 12?
-....This WAS a good silk road board, right?  I feel like I shouldn't have lost to Provinces, so I probably boogered up something.

this is a really, really difficult board with a lot of options. it's a fantastic silk road board. it's also a fantastic duke board. it's also got a lot of engine components and several piles that are likely to empty fast, which boosts city. you have a little bit of a rock paper scissors situation.  my temptation would be: open baron/silver, go for the duchies after the second shuffle. if uncontested, shift to great halls and silk roads after i get 5. if contested, and lose split, lose game, probably, but have silk roads and great halls to compensate a little. it took me like 5 minutes to decide that, though. if i had actually played, i would have gone for the peddlers/markets/cities and tried to beat the cheap green cards.
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DG

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Re: I will try to post a game here every day.
« Reply #20 on: July 08, 2012, 11:39:51 am »
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There are plenty of ways to go about that one. Nomad camp looks a decent starter with the chance of a turn 2 tactician and the extra buy will be useful later. Tactician looks good for harnessing actions cards and buys together all in one hand, as well as pairing estates with barons.
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ehunt

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Re: I will try to post a game here every day.
« Reply #21 on: July 08, 2012, 11:40:19 am »
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to reemphasize, this is one of the most difficult dominion boards i've ever seen on the forum and i would like an expert opinion on it; i don't feel good enough at dominion to handle it. oh, and add me to the pile of folks who are kicking you while you're down for opening great hall :-).
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qmech

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Re: I will try to post a game here every day.
« Reply #22 on: July 08, 2012, 02:54:49 pm »
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I'm up for some practice games with that Kingdom if anyone wants to give it a go.  Feel free to challenge me if I'm in the lobby (either Great Hall or Secret Chamber).

Edit: after solo games my initial thoughts are Provinces > Silk Road > Duke in isolation.  I'm sure all kinds of extra considerations come into play in a two player game.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2012, 03:09:04 pm by qmech »
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Tombolo

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Re: I will try to post a game here every day.
« Reply #23 on: July 10, 2012, 12:26:23 am »
+1

(I promise I am reading your posts and taking them into account, I just rarely have anything to say as a followup and feel like saying "okay" a bunch would just be awkward.)

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201207/09/game-20120709-211605-b5606044.html

What I went for: Masq/Tourney
What he went for: Villages/Masq/Jester
What I wound up with: Masq/Jester

I realized quickly that Tournament wasn't super likely to hit with all the Masq and Jester flying around and no great cycling.  Gave up on that and tried to run Jester, but Jester kept getting me more Jesters and it was kinda weird.  I'm not really sure quite how I lost this. 

-Should I have greened a bit sooner?  My deck held up okay but I kept overshooting 8 with no +buy, and wound up a turn behind playing catchup.
-I thought about getting a second Masq at some point.  Good idea?  Bad idea?
-Should I have gotten more Tournaments?  I feel like it wasn't likely to hit but he also wasn't likely to block the +card/+$ very often either.
-Island wouldn't have been a good card to buy when I was planning on Masq-ing all my Estates, right?
-Anybody have a day where your brain just doesn't parse Dominion for whatever reason?  This was one of those days.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2012, 01:31:24 am by Tombolo »
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DG

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Re: I will try to post a game here every day.
« Reply #24 on: July 10, 2012, 08:59:12 am »
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Your opponent has virtually perfect draws here. Opening farming village/masquerade he gets 5/6/6/8/8 to spend on the following turns. Not only that but he gives you two curses and a copper with jesters as well. I think you sort of did the right things but the jesters took control away from your deck. With the number of terminals accumulating in your deck you almost needed fishing villages as damage limitation, even though bazaars and farming villages should be better here.
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