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Author Topic: Dominion: Lapse (fan card expansion debugging topic)  (Read 9359 times)

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Schlippy

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Dominion: Lapse (fan card expansion debugging topic)
« on: June 04, 2012, 08:09:57 pm »
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I refined most of this a lot, so I made a new topic as it is vastly different. You can find the new topic here: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=2910.0
Thanks to everyone who helped me with things.
:)



Good news everyone! I developed a new fan card expansion for your favourite board game.


The theme:
The theme of this expansion is hard to describe. One person in our playing group once stated that he'd like to lengthen the game somehow. I initially thought that this might be a very bad idea, as longer games will often mean even less fun and longer raging for the people who are losing, while the fun that the person who is winning is having will basically stay the same. Too many games are decided early on in Dominion for this. That's why it is very hard to artificially prolong the game while keeping it fun without watering it down to a state where luck plays a far greater factor than decisions.
So I took a quite different approach. I developed some cards that will somewhat prolong the game - be it either through things like curses or through additional kingdom piles - and some cards that can shorten the game, sometimes even radically. As a side effect of this there are quite a few trashers in this set. That's why I do not recommend using the majority of these cards in a game. You should use them in completely randomized games or - if you really really like them - randomly select three or four cards of this set and mix them with seven (or six) other randomly selected cards from the official (or fan) expansions.
So the theme can be described as "changing the timing in games".
That's why I (at least temporarily) call it Lapse. Until I come up with a better name. ;)


New rule(s) and what this topic actually is about:
Before I'll show you the cards, there is a new rule for the game when you use cards from this expansions: As soon as there are at least 12 Kingdom card piles the winning condition regarding empty piles is 4 empty piles. There are four cards in this set that add additional piles to the Kingdom (just like Young Witch, which too adds an additional pile to the Kingdom). All four of these are treated like Prosperity cards, so if you use them they will increase the chance of Colonies and Platinum being used in the game.
A "Curse card" is any card that has "Curse" on the bottom line. This set includes an additional "Action - Curse" card called Blasphemy. If a card says "Curse" it means only the standard Curse. So when someone plays a Mountebank you can not discard a Blasphemy. But some cards in this set refer to "Curse cards", just like cards in official Dominion expansions refer to "Action cards" or "Treasure cards".
When a card says "play an Action card" it lets you play the Action card for free. Take Throne Room as an example. You do not have to pay one of your Actions for the Action card you play twice with the help of Throne Room, you only have to pay the initial Action for your Throne Room.

Apart from that this is a debugging topic. It is not about showing you 16 perfectly balanced cards. I playtested most of them in solo games and I will (probably) test them this weekend in real games, but there are so much combinations that I can not possibly think of all of them. So there might be some poor interactions you can tell me about. ;)
Besides that you could help me with the wording on some cards. As you might have noticed I am not a native speaker and as a result some wording on the cards might be overdone and could be expressed in fewer words. At first some of the cards may seem utterly complicated, but actually they are not harder to grasp than the "Jack of all Trades" and I just feel like I have used to much words for some of them. As a result it may be the case that you can't read the wording on some cards with lots of text, so just click them to get to a higher resolution version of them.
edit: Recent card changes are hidden in the discussion in this topic. I marked every recently changed card in this posts in blue and will update this post and the pictures as soon as the changes solidify a bit.

The Cards: (finally!)



Baldachin: This is the newest card in the set, so it has not yet received much playtesting. I decided to include a 2$ card and this is what I came up with. As the name suggest it is a Throne Room variant. I included a choice for a (mostly bad) Cellar-like effect so it is not completely useless in Kingdoms without any villages.
It can also be comboed with Hourglass (another card from this set) to achieve a pseudo Scheme effect, even without any +Actions in the Kingdom.
edit: Will receive "(except Baldachins)" as an addition to the pickup action, because of possible infinite combos. (Thanks heron)Will receive changes to make it easier to keep track of which cards you picked up.




Drunkard: The Potion card of the set. Ever had the Potion pile run out? Now you can. Obviously this is a card that can speed up games in the right circumstances. Profits hugely from slim decks and kind of removes the "that potion could have been a silver" rule. The first version let you gain the Potion before you drew cards, but that turned out to be ridiculously strong in very slim decks.
Comboes well with villages and card drawers.
edit: Might receive a buff.



Polycephaly: What happens if you combine an early game trasher that can trash up to 4 cards in a five card hand with a non-terminal silver for 3$? Overpowered. But what if you gave the trashing a rule that most likely makes the card a dead card afterwards? :)
This might need a little rule clarification; you have to trash two of every card from which you have at least two copies in your hand. So in a hand with Copper/Copper/Estate/Estate/Polycephaly you trash both Coppers and both Estates. In a hand with Estate/Copper/Copper/Copper/Polycephaly you have to trash two Coppers and nothing else. In a hand with 4 Coppers and Polycephaly you have to trash exactly 2 Coppers, not 4.
As soon as you draw this with two Silvers/Golds (or two identical Actions that you wanna keep) you will probably not play this as you'd have to trash your Silvers/Golds or Actions.
I will not lie to you, this is a very strong trasher, and in the right Kingdoms (where you can get rid of it in some way afterwards or it does not hurt you as you will draw your whole deck anyways) this is nearly as much of a gamechanger as Chapel.
I think the card needs better wording in english though.
edit: Receives a change in phrasing to make it easier to understand. Current idea is "Reveal  your hand. Trash exactly two copies of every card you revealed at least two copies of."Tell me if you can find better words for it. ;)




Troll: The idea behind the card is that the Troll is raiding the villages. Started out as an attack card that let you take Treasure cards from other players hands who revealed villages, however it was to reliant on villages being in the Kingdom and was either too strong or far to weak. It also lead to not buying villages at all. If no player can reveal a village or other cards that give +2 Actions the Troll gets mad so you have to trash it. This makes it useful in Kingdoms without any villages as it basically makes it a one-shot village with +3 Actions and a little $ bonus.
Acts well in Kingdoms with expensive villages and in Kingdoms without any villages. Comboes with Hanging Gardens (another card from this set).
edit: Will be simplified.




Vize Chancellor: The "village" of the set. Does not let you draw any cards though. Comboes well with cards that let you see the top cards of your deck, cards that leave junk at the top of your deck and cards that act on your discard pile (a.E. Inn or Excorcist (another card from this set)). Also lets you hit the shuffle faster, but does not do it as good as the "real" Chancellor.
edit: Will receive a choice to discard the cards without looking at them. "You may discard the top four cards of your deck."


(click to see full resolution image)

Carpenter: The reaction card of the set. The normal action is more or less a non-terminal copper. The reaction part either lets you play an Action card you gain immediately (and without costing an Action) in your turn or lets you play three Action cards in your next turn if it is not your turn (the one you gained and set aside, the Carpenter you set aside and another one from your hand because you played a Carpenter). Also note that Blasphemy (the special Curse card in this set) is an Action card and you can get rid of it in the turn after you get it without costing you an Action and play another Action card for free. Other situations where you gain Action cards outside of your turn can occur with cards like Swindler, Saboteur or Ambassador. It used to let you play Action cards you gained in your buy phase but that led to some complicated behaviour with a few cards (like Peddler) and was ridiculously strong in some situations.
However, the card might receive a buff and get +2$ on it instead of +1$. Needs further testing.
Comboes well with Remodel-variants, Workshop, Ironworks, Peddler (as you can have at least two Actions in play while only paying one Action for the Carpenter), Swindler, Saboteur, Minion (with the right deck constellation giving you +3$ per Minion played for +2$ and +1$ per Minion played for new cards), Accurst and a lot more.
The most notable combination however is with itself. If you have a hand of Carpenter/Carpenter/Carpenter/Carpenter/Militia you can simply play the Carpenters with Carpenters and end the chain with the Militia and buy a Gold. Awesome card. ;)
edit: Will receive +$2 and +1Action instead of play another card. The reaction part will be simplified a bit.




Excorcist: A trash for benefit card. You have to trash at least 1 card from your discard pile (unless you do not have a discard pile) and can trash 4 at most. The other card in Dominion that can trash for VP (the Bishop) has the downside of letting other players trash cards. This one has several downsides too. The most important one is that it is quite a bad early game trasher. While it gives you VP you can either only trash 1 card or get a curse and trash the Excorcist. And then you'll need to buy another Excorcist. It shines in the endgame where you can get 5 VP or even 6 VP at once (6 when the Curse pile is empty). It also shines when you gain Curses through other cards. The other downside is that you can only trash from your discard pile and not from your hand.
Besides the usefulness for VP in the endgame there are quite a few combos that let you set up an Excorcist "engine" that can be a valid alternative strategy for winning the game, especially if the other players rely on Curse givers. An exceedingly exciting combo can be achieved when Blasphemy (the special Curse card in this set) is in the Kingdom. Just think of the fact that you have to put a Blasphemy into your hand when you trash it (and discard it at the end of your turn, so it is in your discard pile again).
edit: Will be changed to "and trash up to 4 cards from it"




Hourglass: A Silver for $4 that lets you put unplayed Action cards back onto your deck. "Ideally, you do not have unplayed Action cards" is what you might want to say. But even when you play (and shuffle) ideally, there are situations where you're not playing an Action card although you could. Like when you would hit a reshuffle with a card drawer. It can also be comboed with Baldachin (another card from this set) to form a pseudo Scheme. It has the downside of forcing you to put back an Action card when you have one though, so it is not always the better choice to pick this instead of a Silver for 4$.
Another good use for this card is to force combos. Just never play your Goons and set them back to the top of your deck so you'll draw them with your King's Court. There are also three cards in this set that profit hugely from being comboed with specific other cards. Like when you put back played Action cards with Scheme, this has the downside that you'll discard it and not have it in your next turn (unless you can put it back with another card, like Herbalist). However it has the upside that it is basically still a Silver.
This card started with a cost of 5$, but I soon noticed that it is not that strong. It is still very useful though, especially if you want to increase your chance of hitting a specific Action combo in the Kingdom.



(click to see full resolution image)

Librarian: Here we are. The first of four cards in this set that force an additional Kingdom pile and also the most complicated card in the set. -1 Action means literally that: minus 1 Action. It does not mean that you can not play this card when you only have one Action, but it does mean that you'll have no Actions left if you play this while having two Actions (and one Action left when you play this while having three Actions, etc.). This card was at 5$ first, but felt weak, because the combo with Library was harder to achieve. It then went to 4$ but felt too strong in engine decks. So I just gave it -1 Action so it is nerfed down in engine decks while staying the same in other circumstances.
Without a Library this is just a better Cellar (that distracts an Action from you) but if you trash a Library it gains you a Gold and has a Library like effect (without being able to set aside Action cards) that occurs twice if you trash cards inbetween. The Cellar like effect helps you with getting a Library to trash into your hand. It also lets you put good cards under your deck (so you can draw them with the Library effect) or bad cards under your deck (so you can trash them after drawing them) and anything inbetween. You can put two Gold and two Copper under your deck, draw the Copper with the Library effect, trash them, and then draw your Gold with the second Library effect.
Please note that everything after "You may trash a Library" only occurs if you trash a Library. Also note that this card is handled like a Prosperity card, so it increases the chance that you play with Colonies and Platinum.
edit: Will be reworked. Current version is:"Librarian - Action - $4
Reveal any number of cards from your hand and put them below your deck. Draw until you have 4 cards in hand.
You may discard a Library from your hand. If you do: Reveal cards from your deck until you revealed 4 cards that are not Victory cards. Put them into your hand and discard the other cards."




Sawmill: The second card that forces an additional Kingdom Pile. It is very simple. It is just a cantrip that either lets you play a Woodcutter for free or lets you gain a Woodcutter for free. I just felt Woodcutters could receive some sort of buff and this makes them nearly cantrips or silvers with +Buy.
Comboes well with Gardens, Hanging Gardens, ending games early and everything that profits from lots of +Buys.
This card is handled like a Prosperity card too, so it increases the chance that you play with Colonies and Platinum.



(click to see full resolution image)

Turncoat: The third card that forces an additional Kingdom pile. Somewhat special because it can be an Attack card that you can not protect against, but the attack itself is somewhat weak. Has been playtested very little, but feels relatively fine although it has very little benefit without a Council Room. If a player draws a face up Turncoat outside of the turn where it has been placed nothing happens. It will simply be his own card then.
As said, needs further playtesting, might need some changes (maybe it will become a cantrip). But I really like the concept. :)
Like the other cards that add additional Kingdom piles, this too is handled like a Prosperity card.
edit: The cards image is missing the line "Your left neighbour draws a card." at the end of the top part.Will either be scrapped or completely reworked.




Copper Smelt: When I first presented this card the reaction was pretty much more or less like "WTF!?".
On the first glance this card looks like overpriced junk that benefits you once or twice in a game. But besides obvious (and rare) combinations like with Copper Smith, Gardens and Hanging Gardens (another card from this set) this card has a lot of uses. It can slim your deck and trash your coppers without hurting your buying power at that turn. It can be used to gain Copper when you need that extra 3$ in buying power for the price of spamming your deck with Coppers. In that case it brings you 4$, which (for the moment) is better than a Gold in your hand. But it also can be chained with itself. Two Copper Smelts in your hand are actually a Platinum for the price of 2x5$. You play the first one, take three Coppers and use the second one to trash the three Coppers you just gained. With three Copper Smelts in your hand you can take six coppers and then trash them, for a whopping 9$ of buying power without them spamming your deck.
It can be quite a strong Treasure card. But it can also backfire. Copper can run out and as soon as you take three Copper because you need the buying power (or you have to take three Copper because you have no Copper to trash in your hand) you slim the chances of drawing your Copper Smelts together.
I playtested this quite a bit and have yet to encounter a game where this card is not worth 5$ or it is worth far more than 5$. Feels really balanced on the one hand, but I still fear there are some far too strong interactions with other cards that I have not encountered or thought of yet.
edit: Might be nerfed down a bit. Not sure yet how.




Galvanize: This started as a non-duration card that forced Spies as an additional Kingom pile and made spies produce 1$ more per turn. It felt boring and dull and I figured that it would lead to annoying real-life games where several players start to play a Spy engine and think for half of the game if they should discard this or that card or put it back. So I just let it die. A few days ago I realized that this set had no duration card so I reanimated the concept of that Spy card. The first version of the duration card was basically the same, but it missed the part in brackets that forces you to name the same card if you play it more than once per turn. In solo games I lost track of which specific cards where named by specific players with which Galvanize. My first thought was forcing a player to put a card from his hand onto the Galvanize but that would be too much of a nerf. So I just limited each player to only name one card. You can easily keep track of this by just turning the head of the Kingdom pile of the named card to the player who named it.
Note that this is not an Attack card. You can not block it with Moat or play your Secret Chamber if someone plays this. This is mainly for the sake of simplicity, but with the limit of only naming one card per round per player, the attack part often is not really that big of a deal.
I personally love this card as it opens a lot of engine strategies, especially in Kingdoms without strong villages and drawers, while also being able to worsen a lot of engine strategies for the other players.
Has not been playtested a lot yet.
edit: Will be reworked. Current version:
Galvanize - Duration - $5
+1 Action
Gain an Action card from the supply and put it onto this card. While this is in play, the Action on this card produces 1$ more when played.
----------
At the beginning of your next turn: +$2, discard this card and put the gained Action card back into the supply.



(click to see full resolution image)

Hanging Gardens: If you look closely at the picture and the name of the card you'll get what this is about. Yeah, that's right, it is literally Gardens with a twist. :)
This was one of my first card ideas I ever had, without the active however. I always thought it was strange that many Dominion expansions came with a Garden variant, but none of them reacted to Treasure cards. When making this set and thinking about a VP card I could include this became the prominent choice. Not because it has fun and good interactions and synergies with some other cards in this set. It chose it because it is like Gardens: It can either prolong a game by a great amount or shorten a game quite a bit.
edit: Will receive another and more simple active function


(click to see full resolution image)

Accurst: Accurst is the fourth card that forces an additional Kingdom pile. It is the only one of those cards that has its own pile (Blasphemy). It is also the only real Attack card in the set.
It is a card that looks like it is overpowered, and it indeed is a card with a huge amount of potential, but it also can backfire quite a lot. I recently gave it +3$ instead of +2$ because it felt too weak.
Sure, you can use it as a terminal Gold with a Which like effect without never trashing anything until the curses are empty. But if the others players just choose to never use the Blasphemies you'll have nothing but a terminal Gold after a few turns. So you basically have to empty the Curse pile by trashing Copper or Curse cards if you want this card to become strong. Then there is another problem: As soon as the Curse pile is empty you can not trash anymore with Accurst, so you either need another trasher or you have to live with the fact that Accurst makes only slightly up for it by feeding you some Gold.
There is a reason the card is called Accurst: it is accursed.
Like the other three cards that add additional Kingdom piles, this too is handled like a Prosperity card.
edit: Play another Action card from your hand will become +1 Action. Other changes might occur.

Blasphemy: This is a Curse card and an Action card. Every card that refers to "Curses" means Curses, every card that refers to "Curse cards" means either Curses or Blasphemies (everything with "Curse" in the bottom line) and every card that refers to "Blasphemies" means this card. As this is combined card, if a card points you to do something with an Action card (a.E. Shanty Town: "If you have no Action cards in hand, +2 Cards" or Library: "You may set aside any Action cards drawn this way") it reacts to this card. You can not draw cards with Shanty Town when you have a Blasphemy in your hand. You may set aside Blasphemies with the Library.
On the one hand it is worse than a standard Curse, because you can not immediately trash it when you draw it. You have to play it to get rid of it (costing you an Action in the process, like any other Action card) and then you can choose between gaining four Coppers, gaining a Curse or gaining two Curses and trashing up to two cards from your hand. And then it even does not get trashed at all, it goes back to it's Kingdom pile so you may get it back by another Accurst in the next turn.
On the other hand it is better than a standard Curse, because you do not need a trasher to get rid of it and there are far less Blasphemies in the game than Curses. You can simply take the Coppers (you may even profit from it, depending on the Kingdom and your strategy) and come clean. Or you gain a Curse when you draw it with your Watchtower and trash the Curse. A Watchtower can basically protect you from the Blasphemy: Your enemy plays Accurst, you gain the Blasphemy, show your Watchtower to trash it, gain a Curse, show your Watchtower to trash the Curse, gain the Blasphemy in your hand (because you trashed it); then you can simply play the Blasphemy in your next turn, trash whatever you get and even trash up to two cards from your hand if you want to by taking two Curses and trashing them. Once the Curse pile is empty Blasphemy basically become a renewable Curse with a self trashing action.
Because of the "gain a Curse and put this card back into your hand when you trash it" rule Blasphemy has a lot of fun and tricky interactions with a lot of cards, especially when the Curse pile is empty. I already stated the Excorcist combo. I recently stumbled upon Accurst and Farmland in the same Kingdom while solo testing and one the players had a strong engine with +Buys running. He could end and win the game by buying several Farmlands in one turn while having a Blasphemy as his only card in hand left, trashing it repeatedly for Estates.
The Blasphemy pile acts like any other pile in the Kingdom, so it does count to the 3 (or 4) empty piles rule. You can buy a Blasphemy for 0$ if you want to. For two players the pile contains 4 Blasphemy cards, for three players it contains 7 Blasphemy cards and for four players it contains 10 Blasphemy cards.
The amount might be changed to 5 Blasphemy cards for two players in the future, but other than that I think the card is really fine. Far better than I expected. Might even get -2 VP on it because it plays out so fine in some situations and I fell like Accurst needs another slight buff. ;)



Closing comments and disclaimer:
So that's 16 cards. What do you think of them? Can you spot any poor interactions (especially with official cards) that might turn out wonky or are harshly overpowered? Have you got any questions regarding how a specific card functions? Do you want a high resolution image of specific cards because you can't read the phrasing (or because you want to print them)? (Please note that the cards with small text open up a high resolution image when you click them, says so beneath the cards where I uploaded it.)
How would you improve the phrasing? Do you think some cards are too complicated? Do you have any suggestions for (public domain) artwork for the cards Hanging Gardens, Carpenter and Vize Chancellor?
Besides that: Thank you for reading this post. I hope you'll have as much fun evaluating my cards and reading this post as I had making the cards. :)

I'm sorry if you happen to find bad grammar or poor choice of words in my post, as I said I am not a native speaker. ;)

The artwork is only temporarily. Every used picture is either by me or public domain with the following exceptions:[/color]
  • All card backgrounds are from Rio Grande Games
  • Hanging Gardens use an edited version of the Gardens Dominion card with edited artwork
  • Vize Chancellor use an edited version of the Chancellor Dominion card with edited artwork
  • Carpenter uses an edited screenshot depicting the character "Buddy Christ" from the movie Dogma
« Last Edit: June 12, 2012, 04:26:45 pm by Schlippy »
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Grujah

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Re: Dominion: Lapse (fan card expansion debugging topic)
« Reply #1 on: June 04, 2012, 08:25:19 pm »
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How does troll work with Nobles?
Tribute?
Fishing Village?
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Schlippy

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Re: Dominion: Lapse (fan card expansion debugging topic)
« Reply #2 on: June 04, 2012, 09:08:31 pm »
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How does troll work with Nobles?
Tribute?
Fishing Village?
Does work on Fishing Village, does not work on Nobles or Tribute.
I'd like to make it work on Nobles because it makes sense, but the problem is that the phrasing would have to be changed to something like "a card that can give exactly +2 Actions" and that would make it work on Tribute and and in a way Hamlet. Hamlet might make sense in a way, Tribute however does not.
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heron

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Re: Dominion: Lapse (fan card expansion debugging topic)
« Reply #3 on: June 04, 2012, 09:36:56 pm »
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These are some new ideas!

(Sorry for the wall of text)

Here is my feedback:

Baldachin: I've always wanted to have some sort of card that takes things out of play. The only problem I have is the following:
Say you have a hand of King's Court, Baldachin, Level 3 City. Play City. Play KC-Baldachin. Take Kc, Baldachin, and Level 3 City out of play. Rinse and repeat. This will give you infinite money and infinite buys.

Drunkard: Seems rather situational. Normally, you'll get the estate trashing one or two times, and the potion trashing once, I would guess. Unless you've set up some sort of crazy draw engine, I don't think it's worth spamming potions just for this card. But I could be totally wrong here.

Polycephaly: I like this card as-is, except for a wording fix: Reveal your hand. For each card that you have revealed two copies of, you may choose to those two copies of the card. Actually, I don't really like my wording that much either. Yours is ambiguous, and mine's clunky.

Troll: This card needs to be changed. It seems weak to me, with or especially without villages. But more importantly, how it reacts to cards like tribute, fishing village, or even itself needs to be clarified.

Vice Chancellor: I think it might be better to give the revealed cards a navigator-like discard choice, as just discarding four cards seems like it's incredibly useless, and also I would get really annoyed if it discarded my good cards.

Carpenter: This seems weak too. Its action part is worse than just plain old +$1, +1 Action. The reaction portions cool, but not all that much better than a simple top deck reaction, and a whole lot more confusing. I would recommend changing this to a $2 action, changing the action to $1, 1 action, and making the reaction simply top deck.

Exorcist: Slight spelling error in the title. I think that this should say up to four cards rather than 1 to 4, as it doesn't change the card much and also is simpler. Also, for the cure-y part, I think again that the card is a tad weak and could read "if you trash two or more cards and none of them are curses." Or even "three or more cards and none of them are curses."

Hourglass: This is a good idea, but it has a common problem: It's strictly better than silver and only costs $4. If this is in the supply, silver will almost never be bought. I think it needs to get a decent buff and then have the price increased to $5. I'm not sure what a good buff would be though.

Librarian: Wowsers. Well, first off, I would get rid of the -1 action. It adds rules confusion, but it doesn't add much to the card. Also, wording change: "You may reveal any number of cards from your hand, and either discard them or put them on the bottom of your deck. You may trash a library. If you do, (this looked fine). Otherwise, +cards equal to the number of cards revealed. Another thing is, I don't like how you need to connect it with library, a card that you normally wouldn't want very many of. I think it would be better off if it reacted with, estate, silver, or any card that costs at leads $5 ($4?).

Sawmill: Good card, although, like you can probably guess by now, I would like it better if it just reacted with estate or something, like baron does.

Turncoat: I think I need an explanation on this one. Half of the wording I do not understand, and the other half seems impossible to make use of, even with council room.

Copper Smelt: My favorite card of the set.  MY only nitpick is situational-ness. In a gardens or hanging gardens game, this is an INSANE power card. In all other games, it seems like a fool's gold with a small bonus that (now that I think about it) might eventually disappear. Like, if one player spammed these like fool's gold, would the coppers empty? Actually, I just changed my mind: since this card can be used for $4 all the time, it's a lot better than fool's gold. I like it a lot; maybe it is balanced with gardens and hanging gardens. I've convinced myself that it's perfect as-is.

Galvanize: Not really sure here, but maybe this is over powered?  Does this card upgrade cards that are already in play? I guess if it doesn't, this could be alright, but what about market? I play village-galvanizer and turn my markets into grand markets, buying two to three provinces per turn. Your markets become cantrips. Unless you buy a galvanizer as a counter, there is basically nothing you can do if you are pursuing a similar strategy as me. I don't like that the only real counter is buying more galvanizers. I also don't like its situational-ness. In a big money game, it's totally useless.

Hanging Gardens: I like this card a lot too. However, I think it is needlessly complex. I would probably just bump the price to six and make it a straight victory card. Actually, maybe leave it at five, because at six all those coppers you bought to boost your hanging gardens prevent you from buying hanging gardens. I love the picture.

Accurst/Blasphemy: I would change "play an action card from your hand" to "+1 action." It's almost the same thing. Well, keep it for the newly gained $4 card. Also, two curses with a gold is a steep penalty, I might change it to one. Actually, what I would do is (you guessed it) get rid of the gold gaining thing altogether. Also, I might change it to +$2, but I'm not sure how powerful this card is. I like love blasphemy as-is, but it might need to be a reaction card.

All in all, the main problem is the over complex nature of the cards, as well as a few of them being too weak. A lot of the time the complexness is either unnecessary (like changing play another action from your hand to +1 action) or would be better but into another card (accurst gold-gaining thing). The wording was a tad confusing, but it got the point across for everything but turncoat, which I still don't understand.

I really like some of the ideas here, especially Baldachin, Copper Smelt, and Hanging Gardens. A lot of the time I feel like I'm seeing the same old cards over and over here in the variants forum, but most of these are brand-new.

Please take my probably-too-harsh criticism with a grain of salt, however, because I am by no means a fan card expert. That would be Rinkworks, though he/she will try to deny it.

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Schlippy

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Re: Dominion: Lapse (fan card expansion debugging topic)
« Reply #4 on: June 05, 2012, 12:04:13 am »
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Baldachin: I've always wanted to have some sort of card that takes things out of play. The only problem I have is the following:
Say you have a hand of King's Court, Baldachin, Level 3 City. Play City. Play KC-Baldachin. Take Kc, Baldachin, and Level 3 City out of play. Rinse and repeat. This will give you infinite money and infinite buys.
I initially thought about putting "(except Baldachins)" onto the card because I feared some poor interactions that lead to infinite chains but didn't add it after all because I found none that was that ridiculous. Thank you for the idea, I'll probably add the exception.

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Drunkard: Seems rather situational. Normally, you'll get the estate trashing one or two times, and the potion trashing once, I would guess. Unless you've set up some sort of crazy draw engine, I don't think it's worth spamming potions just for this card. But I could be totally wrong here.
If you trash at least one Potion you will be able to buy at least an estate you can trash again for the buys, cards and action. In slim decks you can end the game quite fast with it, while making the Potions you get for free to $3. Of course it is situational, but isn't any card situational? ;)
The thing is that even a rather poor engine can become quite crazy with Drunkards, as it enables you to play with nearly no treasure cards while giving you Potions to trash for benefit. It powers up your buying power without buying additional treasure cards. If you manage to draw Potions with it, it is as if you drew Gold with it.
We'll see how my real-life rounds turn out. It may or may not receive a buff.

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Polycephaly: I like this card as-is, except for a wording fix: Reveal your hand. For each card that you have revealed two copies of, you may choose to those two copies of the card. Actually, I don't really like my wording that much either. Yours is ambiguous, and mine's clunky.
How about "Reveal  your hand. You have to trash exactly two copies of every card you revealed at least two copies of."?
Your wording supposes that you only have to trash if you reveal exactly two copies, which is not the case. As soon as you reveal the same card more than once, you have to trash two of  it.

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Troll: This card needs to be changed. It seems weak to me, with or especially without villages. But more importantly, how it reacts to cards like tribute, fishing village, or even itself needs to be clarified.
It reacts to cards that give you exactly guaranteed +2 Actions when you play it. It does not react to itself (as itself gives only a guaranteed +1 Action, and when it does give more it gives exactly +3 Actions), Tribute does not give you anything with a guarantee and Fishing Village gives you guaranteed +2 Actions. The +1 Action at the next turn of Fishing Village is not a certain event.
I might adjust the +$ in the self trash event, other than that I really think it is fine at the moment. But as with all card in this set, it has to be playtested a lot more.


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Vice Chancellor: I think it might be better to give the revealed cards a navigator-like discard choice, as just discarding four cards seems like it's incredibly useless, and also I would get really annoyed if it discarded my good cards.
I think a navigator-like choice would make it too strong compared to Navigator. You also have a realize that (apart from the discard) this is a Bazaar without the card drawing. As with Chancellor, it is stronger and really shines if you profit from cards in your discard pile (a.E. with Counting House, Inn or Excorcist) or have very good control over your deck.

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Carpenter: This seems weak too. Its action part is worse than just plain old +$1, +1 Action. The reaction portions cool, but not all that much better than a simple top deck reaction, and a whole lot more confusing. I would recommend changing this to a $2 action, changing the action to $1, 1 action, and making the reaction simply top deck.
I agree that it is slightly worse than +$1, +1 Action, but changing it to that would make it boring. :(  I also think that reaction cards do not deserve to give you a +Action(s). ;)
Imho the reaction portion is far better than a simple top deck reaction, as with top deck you need at least another card drawer in your hand to play the gained card immediately (and even then, it costs you an Action to play the Card, whereas the reaction on the Carpenter does not cost you an Action), and it give you a lot less profit if you react outside of your turn.
I agree on the fact that it seems weak, as said it might change to +$2 in the future.


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Exorcist: Slight spelling error in the title. I think that this should say up to four cards rather than 1 to 4, as it doesn't change the card much and also is simpler. Also, for the cure-y part, I think again that the card is a tad weak and could read "if you trash two or more cards and none of them are curses." Or even "three or more cards and none of them are curses."
It used to be 3 non-curse cards, I felt like it was too strong for a trash for benefit card, especially one that gives you VP for trashing. I might change it to up to four cards though, as it indeed doesn't change the card a lot.

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Hourglass: This is a good idea, but it has a common problem: It's strictly better than silver and only costs $4. If this is in the supply, silver will almost never be bought. I think it needs to get a decent buff and then have the price increased to $5. I'm not sure what a good buff would be though.
It is not strictly better than Silver. As I said I initially priced it at $5 and the main reason for that was that I thought it is far better than Silver. But I ran into so many circumstances while testing where I hated the card for the mandatory put an Action card from your hand back onto your deck that I think the price at $4 is ok. (Being forced to put a Chapel back although you do not have any cards you wanna trash, being forced to put a Blasphemy back, being forced to put a Moneylender back at the first two turns of your reshuffle and hitting your sole left copper at the fourth turn, and most of all: being forced to put one or more colliding terminals back so they collide again in your next turn).
Yes, there are games where this is almost always better than Silver, but hey it costs slightly more than silver and there are only 10 of it. There are also games where this does not make any difference, because there are so few terminals you want to have that they only collide once per game or never.

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Librarian: Wowsers. Well, first off, I would get rid of the -1 action. It adds rules confusion, but it doesn't add much to the card. Also, wording change: "You may reveal any number of cards from your hand, and either discard them or put them on the bottom of your deck. You may trash a library. If you do, (this looked fine). Otherwise, +cards equal to the number of cards revealed. Another thing is, I don't like how you need to connect it with library, a card that you normally wouldn't want very many of. I think it would be better off if it reacted with, estate, silver, or any card that costs at leads $5 ($4?).
The fact that you normally wouldn't want very many Libraries is one of the reasons this connects to Libraries. As hinted at in my post, I thought about concepts how to prolong the game a bit and the "this card adds an additional Kingdom pile and interacts with the added card" was one of the most interesting results of that thinking. I also really liked how it played out, rewarding you for setting up megaturns and making it slightly easier to do so.
I am aware that the -1 action seems odd, but I do disagree that it doesn't add much to the card. It adds a (imho needed) nerf in engine decks while keeping the card basically the same in non engine decks. I'll change that as soon as I find another method to do so without making the card more complicated and without adding any odd restrictions on it.

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Sawmill: Good card, although, like you can probably guess by now, I would like it better if it just reacted with estate or something, like baron does.
Well that would make it a baron, wouldn't it? ;)
Also see the part of this post referring to Librarian.

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Turncoat: I think I need an explanation on this one. Half of the wording I do not understand, and the other half seems impossible to make use of, even with council room.
First part:
Reveal the top two cards of your left neighbours deck. Add the Turncoat you just played to these cards, but put it the other way around (with the back of the card up). Put the three cards back onto his deck in any order. Than your left neighbour draws one card.

Second part:
As soon as you make the another player draw an upside down Turncoat card in this turn he has to trash the Turncoat he drew and then a Militia like effect happens where everyone (except you) have to discard down to four cards. For every two cards that were discarded cards (added up from all other players) you'll get +1 Card, +3$ and you may trash a card from your hand.

The reason why it seems like you can't make use of it is that the part about your left neighbour drawing a card is missing from the first part. Looks like I forgot that when editing it. :<

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Copper Smelt: My favorite card of the set.  MY only nitpick is situational-ness. In a gardens or hanging gardens game, this is an INSANE power card. In all other games, it seems like a fool's gold with a small bonus that (now that I think about it) might eventually disappear. Like, if one player spammed these like fool's gold, would the coppers empty? Actually, I just changed my mind: since this card can be used for $4 all the time, it's a lot better than fool's gold. I like it a lot; maybe it is balanced with gardens and hanging gardens. I've convinced myself that it's perfect as-is.
It can not be used for $4 all the time, because at some point the coppers may run out.

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Galvanize: Not really sure here, but maybe this is over powered?  Does this card upgrade cards that are already in play? I guess if it doesn't, this could be alright, but what about market? I play village-galvanizer and turn my markets into grand markets, buying two to three provinces per turn. Your markets become cantrips. Unless you buy a galvanizer as a counter, there is basically nothing you can do if you are pursuing a similar strategy as me. I don't like that the only real counter is buying more galvanizers. I also don't like its situational-ness. In a big money game, it's totally useless.
It does upgrade Cards that you already have in play. It does make make Markets into Grand Markets (or even better). I agree that the only real counter to such a strategy is buying a Galvanizer yourself or ending the game before you enemy can set up his engine. But is that necessarly a bad thing? Quite often the only real counter to Ambassador and several Curse givers is buying those yourself, or buying more than the enemy.
In Big Money games this is at least +2Cards, +1$ (by naming the Galvanize).

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Hanging Gardens: I like this card a lot too. However, I think it is needlessly complex. I would probably just bump the price to six and make it a straight victory card. Actually, maybe leave it at five, because at six all those coppers you bought to boost your hanging gardens prevent you from buying hanging gardens. I love the picture.
I actually think of making this a remodel-variant and changing the Action component to: Trash any card from your hand. Gain a Treasure card that costs up to $2 more. Maybe just $1, time will tell. ;)

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Accurst/Blasphemy: I would change "play an action card from your hand" to "+1 action." It's almost the same thing. Well, keep it for the newly gained $4 card. Also, two curses with a gold is a steep penalty, I might change it to one. Actually, what I would do is (you guessed it) get rid of the gold gaining thing altogether. Also, I might change it to +$2, but I'm not sure how powerful this card is. I like love blasphemy as-is, but it might need to be a reaction card.
As long as you trash Curses with it, you technically only gain one Curse. In most circumstances you want to empty the curse pile relatively fast at one point or another, this helps you a bit without watering you down too much. If you'd only gain one Curse you could empty the curse pile with basically no downside. It also adds a lot of variety to the card, because with trashers (or Watchtower) you'd play this vastly different.
I might change it to +1 Action, as it really is almost the same. As I said +$2 felt a tad too weak. I'll see how it plays out this weekend.

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All in all, the main problem is the over complex nature of the cards, as well as a few of them being too weak. A lot of the time the complexness is either unnecessary (like changing play another action from your hand to +1 action) or would be better but into another card (accurst gold-gaining thing). The wording was a tad confusing, but it got the point across for everything but turncoat, which I still don't understand.
As a matter of fact, I told people initially that the theme is "utterly complex cards for utterly complex people". ;)

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I really like some of the ideas here, especially Baldachin, Copper Smelt, and Hanging Gardens. A lot of the time I feel like I'm seeing the same old cards over and over here in the variants forum, but most of these are brand-new.

Please take my probably-too-harsh criticism with a grain of salt, however, because I am by no means a fan card expert. That would be Rinkworks, though he/she will try to deny it.
If I wasn't open and thankful for criticism I would not have made this topic. ;)

edit: I forgot to mention that "Play an Action card from your hand" is quite different to "+1 Action". One reason is because the former forces you to play another Action card, no matter if you want it or not. Another one is the interaction with cards that force you to play an Action, like Golem, set aside Carpenters or Accurst and cards that react to the amount of Actions you have left.
Let's say you have a hand of Golem, Smithy and three Gold. You play the Golem and reveal a Carpenter and Crossroads. If Carpenter gave you +1 Action you end up with 4 Actions and 3 Gold and a Smithy in hand you can play for a max of three new cards.
But if Carpenter let you play an Action card you could play the Smithy inbetween, maybe revaeling VP cards and actually draw cards with Crossroads. It just plays out vastly different sometimes if you can play another Action card inbetween.
As another example if you had two Golems in you hand and reveal a Chapel and a Carpenter with the first one, you could play the Carpenter first to play the second Golem and postpone the Chapel until you have more cards in your hand you want to trash.
Sometimes it is simply better to immediately play another Action card instead of getting +1 Action, and sometimes it is worse.

On a related note: I had planned a Treasure card for $2 that basically became a Silver in your buyphase when you had 0 Actions left and was a Copper otherwise, because it had neat interactions with Librarian, Carpenter and Accurst (and a lot of preferable big money boards that allowed you to get +Buy with an Action card) but scrapped it because it felt somewhat strange. Thinking about it now I may revive it in some way or another, still sounds useful. Maybe it should get a Contraband like +Buy or something.

I probably wouldn't mind changing it on Accurst, because the card is voluminous as is, but imho it should stay on the Carpenter.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2012, 09:46:35 am by Schlippy »
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LastFootnote

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Re: Dominion: Lapse (fan card expansion debugging topic)
« Reply #5 on: June 05, 2012, 02:11:41 pm »
+2

I'm not going to critique these cards individually, but I do have one piece of advice. I'm guessing that you used the same card templates I used for my own fan cards. I used 40-point bold Times New Roman for the '+X Cards' bits at the top of the card's text box and 32-point Times New Roman for the rest of the card text.

Here's a rule of thumb that I developed: If the text of my card doesn't fit (and look good) in the text box using the font sizes mentioned above, then my card is too complex.
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Schlippy

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Re: Dominion: Lapse (fan card expansion debugging topic)
« Reply #6 on: June 05, 2012, 03:29:39 pm »
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Yeah, I just figured that out a few hours ago when displaying them in the print out size.
I'll probably rework Librarian completely, get rid of Turncoat and rework/simplify Troll, the reaction on Carpenter, Accurst and change the active portion of Hanging Gardens.

Thanks for the rule of thumb sizes, should be mentioned in the Fan Card creation guide.

Might introduce a few other cards to the set - might make it to 25. :)
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eHalcyon

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Re: Dominion: Lapse (fan card expansion debugging topic)
« Reply #7 on: June 05, 2012, 03:52:13 pm »
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General comments:

- I mention below how "play an action card" is an unnecessary complication of "+1 action".  I just read a good example where it actually is different -- the interaction with Golem.  But this is actually a reason to NOT make it "play an action card" -- it can quickly become stupidly difficult to track.  Read the secret histories for Alchemy, specifically about Golem.  Note how it skips over other Golems.  The reason is that, if you don't, it suddenly becomes a really confusing tree of things resolving within chains of chains and oh man your head will spin. :P

- I don't mention it below, but I like polycephaly.  It can use some better wording but I think the concept is solid.

- Most of the cards are really, really complicated when they don't have to be. :(

The last point is the real sticker.  The more complicated it is, the more difficult it is to balance and debug.  Keep things as simple as possible.

And apologies if anything below sounds too harsh.  I definitely saw some neat ideas in here.  They need to be simplified though!

======================================

Baldachin -- the second option sounds too strong for a $2 card, but I'm not sure.  It might be OK, actually.  The first option is pretty weak especially because of the dependency on villages.  It also introduces tracking issues.  If you have a village in play and opt to pick it up, do you still have the extra actions?  Probably.  Definitely add the clause to prevent infinite loops.

Have you found Drunkard to actually be useful?  Its special effects are dependent on having Estates and Potions in your hand, but those are cards you probably don't want many of.  So, it relies on junk.  And yes, it can trash your potion into +$3, but the Silver is still probably better in the many cases when Drunkard and Potion fail to collide.  And with all of this in mind, Drunkard still costs $3p, which is fairly expensive.  I don't know... your testing showed that it was good?

Vice Chancellor is weird because it is a Village that is not named as a village. :P  I think it's OK at $3.  It's like Fishing Village without the next-turn bonus, but with extra cycling.  I'd suggest making the "reveal-and-discard" optional (though once revealed, you must discard -- if the discard was optional after revealing, the card is IMO stronger than Navigator at a cheaper price).

Carpenter -- rather weird.  "Play another action card" is basically a fancy way of saying +1 Action.  The only difference is that, with this phrasing, you MUST play another action, as with Throne Room.  And this is something that is hard to enforce, also like TR.  Oh, and I guess it doesn't help out with Diadem.  But in most cases, it is just "+1 Action".  The reaction is kind of interesting.  Rather situational, but that can be fine.  I don't think it's worth $4.  By the way, your "Carpenter combo" example... the same thing happens if you have 4xCopper with Militia...

Exorcist is neat.  I'd say that trashing from discard instead of hand is an upside, not a downside.  Unless you draw it immediately after a reshuffle, your discard will be a larger search space.

Librarian is cramming too much into one card, I think.  The first part is very similar to Cellar, with the option of bottom-decking (which I don't think is that useful?  If it's a bad card you should just discard it; if it's a good card you don't want it to miss the reshuffle).  I suppose it does have some applications for the second effect of Librarian.  The Library combo is really powerful but you'd need to buy lots of Libraries to do it more than once, so I guess that's OK.

I don't think I'd ever want Sawmill... Gardens game, I guess.  Not sure what makes this a Prosperity-like card.  Maybe I am underestimating it.

Turncoat has tracking problems and I don't really want to wrap my head around them.  Part of it is your wording.  The middle section should say something more like, "If you draw this face up you must trash it..." because at that point it belongs to the other player, not you, so saying "another player" from that player's point of view will no longer include him but will include you.  Does that make sense?  Making yourself immune to the attack is also really confusing and I can't think of a way to word it to get the effect I think you want.  The other big tracking problem is remembering in whose turn a Turncoat was played.  Finally, the way you have it worded, it sounds like you reveal two cards, then put Turncoat on their deck face up, then put the two revealed cards on top.  That means you're going to need THREE council rooms to trigger the Turncoat effect... just lots of problems all around.  It's a neat concept though.  I think it can be improved.


After reading your explanation to heron about Turncoat, it works better (in that you can arrange it on top, or second or third depending on how many CR you will be able to play).  I understand what you want.  But the wording is just very poor and I can't think of a good way to phrase it.  It's just way too complicated and doesn't really do anything different from just plain old Militia.  Why make it so complicated with hiding the card on your opponent's deck face up and needing them to draw it, etc. etc... might as well make it a Militia that gives you bonuses based on cards discarded.

But on that note, Turncoat's bonuses based on discarded cards is REALLY strong, especially in multiplayer games.  It exarcerbates the luck factor.  The first person to get a CR megaturn going already has a huge advantage, and something like Militia at the end REALLY hurts.  Turncoat is like that, except it also gives you a huge bonus that is bigger the bigger your turn is. :\


Copper Smelt -- The "2 Copper Smelt = Platinum" combo isn't so good.  Gold+Silver is also like platinum and it's more useful if they don't collide.  Three Smelts are neater -- needs 3 Gold to match.  I see Copper Smelt as being useful as a delayed Mint.  It can get rid of the Copper in your deck without hurting your spending power.  It has other applications too, with the copper gaining.  I like it, but I think it is too strong.  Even though you are penalized by the copper gain, this is usually worth $4 every time if you want it that way, and it can always trash those coppers later!  Compare to IGG which gains just one copper into hand and doesn't offer a built-in way to get rid of those coppers when you don't need them.  And yeah, the coppers may eventually run out, but I don't know if that's an effective power check.

Galvanize is too strong.  I don't see it as an Engine enabler.  The bonus to yourself is nice but the attack is deadly to opposing engines if they depend on an action for their coin.  You can use Galvanize to shut down their engine by naming their Village or their Market or something.  In the face of that possibility, I'd rather build BM.  Also, upgrading cards that are already in play is a bad precedent, I think.  Once something is played, it shouldn't change.  Think of things like Bank -- the order you play it in matters.

Hanging Gardens seems to anti-synergize with itself.  If you load up on them you'll end up trashing them as well as a second card only to gain a single card -- a net loss when you're actually trying to accumulate more cards.

Accurst is really complicated, even more than Librarian.  What happens if you use it to gain a Duration card -- does it still get trashed?  Why do you keep saying "play an Action card from your hand" instead of just "+1 Action"?  How did you come up with the number of Blasphemy cards to use and what about 5 and 6 player games?

Accurst is really weirdly balanced.  It feels like you kept adding more effects to balance it instead of just removing things or making effects smaller.  It's a curser.  It lets you trash coppers or curses and gain GOLD.  Oh, but that's too strong so make the Gold come with two Curses.  But that penalty doesn't work if the curses have run out, so it should have a different weaker, effect after that!  And hmm, before the curses run out, it doesn't do anything helpful so it should give you +$3 as well... and maybe that's still not enough so you can play another action after it either way...

Why would anyone ever try to trash Blasphemy?  Might as well just say "this card cannot be trashed."
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Re: Dominion: Lapse (fan card expansion debugging topic)
« Reply #8 on: June 05, 2012, 05:34:38 pm »
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I like your new wording idea for polycephaly.
Also, you were totally right about not having a navigator effect on Vice Chancellor, that would be too powerful.
One thing I have to say is about librarian (and similar cards)
You say that librarian reacts with library because normally you don't want too many libraries.
But why not just have it react with estates or duchies or something? You don't want many of those either.
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Schlippy

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Re: Dominion: Lapse (fan card expansion debugging topic)
« Reply #9 on: June 05, 2012, 07:05:23 pm »
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General comments:

- I mention below how "play an action card" is an unnecessary complication of "+1 action".  I just read a good example where it actually is different -- the interaction with Golem.  But this is actually a reason to NOT make it "play an action card" -- it can quickly become stupidly difficult to track.  Read the secret histories for Alchemy, specifically about Golem.  Note how it skips over other Golems.  The reason is that, if you don't, it suddenly becomes a really confusing tree of things resolving within chains of chains and oh man your head will spin. :P
I agree that it is complicated and hard to keep track of if Golems let you play other Golems, but with Carpenter you can only play one action. Even if that is a Golem it is not very hard to keep track of it in a physical game. I personally think that keeping track of stacked KCs is vastly more difficult.

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Baldachin -- the second option sounds too strong for a $2 card, but I'm not sure.  It might be OK, actually.  The first option is pretty weak especially because of the dependency on villages.  It also introduces tracking issues.  If you have a village in play and opt to pick it up, do you still have the extra actions?  Probably.  Definitely add the clause to prevent infinite loops.
A Throne Room actually makes you pick up the card you played with it after the first time you played it. It is the same thing without playing it again. So yes, you'll have any bonuses (except those that state "when this is in play") from cards you picked up with it. It might be hard to keep track of that in long chains or when you trash Actions after you picked them up again - playtesting with others will tell.
The first option can be quite useful even without villages, depending on the Kingdom. You can pick up an duration card instead of discarding it in the second turn and put it back at your deck with Hourglass. Or you could pick it up and buy Farmland to remodel it into a Duchy.
Don't just think of the Throne Room like effect you can have by playing it after picking it up. There are other neat combinations like picking up Action cards to be able to put your a Walled Village (yes, I do realize that is a village) on top of your deck or put it back onto your deck with a Mandarin.
I don't think the second option is too strong. Apart from situations with three or less cards in hand it is pretty much always strictly worse than a Cellar.

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Have you found Drunkard to actually be useful?  Its special effects are dependent on having Estates and Potions in your hand, but those are cards you probably don't want many of.  So, it relies on junk.  And yes, it can trash your potion into +$3, but the Silver is still probably better in the many cases when Drunkard and Potion fail to collide.  And with all of this in mind, Drunkard still costs $3p, which is fairly expensive.  I don't know... your testing showed that it was good?
I am not sure yet. It does relatively well in some situations (especially draw engines, slim decks and Kingdoms with other Potion cards), does mediocre in some situations and is relatively useless in some situations.
It might receive some buffs, but I'll stick with the basic concept of trashing Estates and Potions for benefit. You know, because losing your home and wasting drinks is what being a drunkard is all about.

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Vice Chancellor is weird because it is a Village that is not named as a village. :P  I think it's OK at $3.  It's like Fishing Village without the next-turn bonus, but with extra cycling.  I'd suggest making the "reveal-and-discard" optional (though once revealed, you must discard -- if the discard was optional after revealing, the card is IMO stronger than Navigator at a cheaper price).
That is quite a good idea. After all it is a choice on the real Chancellor too. I'll implement that.
Btw: Shanty Town, City and Bazaar are not named as a village. :>

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Carpenter -- rather weird.  "Play another action card" is basically a fancy way of saying +1 Action.  The only difference is that, with this phrasing, you MUST play another action, as with Throne Room.  And this is something that is hard to enforce, also like TR.  Oh, and I guess it doesn't help out with Diadem.  But in most cases, it is just "+1 Action".  The reaction is kind of interesting.  Rather situational, but that can be fine.  I don't think it's worth $4.  By the way, your "Carpenter combo" example... the same thing happens if you have 4xCopper with Militia...
The Carpenter combo was more of an inside joke at people that are happy because they can play four consecutive villages and then buy a village. ;)
I agree that the non-reaction part is actually quite uninteresting in itself.

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Exorcist is neat.  I'd say that trashing from discard instead of hand is an upside, not a downside.  Unless you draw it immediately after a reshuffle, your discard will be a larger search space.
It is a downside in trimmed decks.

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Librarian is cramming too much into one card, I think.  The first part is very similar to Cellar, with the option of bottom-decking (which I don't think is that useful?  If it's a bad card you should just discard it; if it's a good card you don't want it to miss the reshuffle).  I suppose it does have some applications for the second effect of Librarian.  The Library combo is really powerful but you'd need to buy lots of Libraries to do it more than once, so I guess that's OK.
Yeah, as I said it will probably be reworked and simplified.

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I don't think I'd ever want Sawmill... Gardens game, I guess.  Not sure what makes this a Prosperity-like card.  Maybe I am underestimating it.
Gardens, Vineyard, Hanging Gardens and Goons when there is a strong trasher in the Kingdom (or Watchtower), Peddler, to an extent Counting House.
I'm not quite sure yet where it stands in usefulness in other games though.
It is just a Prosperity card because I decided it is one. ;)

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Turncoat has tracking problems and I don't really want to wrap my head around them.  Part of it is your wording.  The middle section should say something more like, "If you draw this face up you must trash it..." because at that point it belongs to the other player, not you, so saying "another player" from that player's point of view will no longer include him but will include you.  Does that make sense?  Making yourself immune to the attack is also really confusing and I can't think of a way to word it to get the effect I think you want.  The other big tracking problem is remembering in whose turn a Turncoat was played.  Finally, the way you have it worded, it sounds like you reveal two cards, then put Turncoat on their deck face up, then put the two revealed cards on top.  That means you're going to need THREE council rooms to trigger the Turncoat effect... just lots of problems all around.  It's a neat concept though.  I think it can be improved.
[..]
I like the concept, but I am not quite sure how to implement it properly now.
Because of the problems it has I'll probably scrap it completely or remove the link and make it a delayed but unblockable choice-attack that give $2 when played.
Maybe something like:
"If you draw this face up, choose one:
Trash this card and discard down to 3 cards in hand.
or
Discard down to 2 cards in hand. Every other player discards down to 4 cards in his hand."


It would certainly fit the theme of a turncoat, seems a bit exaggerated though. ;)


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Copper Smelt -- The "2 Copper Smelt = Platinum" combo isn't so good.  Gold+Silver is also like platinum and it's more useful if they don't collide.  Three Smelts are neater -- needs 3 Gold to match.  I see Copper Smelt as being useful as a delayed Mint.  It can get rid of the Copper in your deck without hurting your spending power.  It has other applications too, with the copper gaining.  I like it, but I think it is too strong.  Even though you are penalized by the copper gain, this is usually worth $4 every time if you want it that way, and it can always trash those coppers later!  Compare to IGG which gains just one copper into hand and doesn't offer a built-in way to get rid of those coppers when you don't need them.  And yeah, the coppers may eventually run out, but I don't know if that's an effective power check.
Gold and Silver needs you to get at least 6 in a turn.
I don't think you can compare it to IGG, because the really strong part on IGG is the unblockable attack.
I agree that it could use a nerf. Thought about "gain 3 coppers, putting 2 of them into your hand" but that might be too much of a nerf.
The card needs more extensive playtesting.

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Galvanize is too strong.  I don't see it as an Engine enabler.  The bonus to yourself is nice but the attack is deadly to opposing engines if they depend on an action for their coin.  You can use Galvanize to shut down their engine by naming their Village or their Market or something.  In the face of that possibility, I'd rather build BM.  Also, upgrading cards that are already in play is a bad precedent, I think.  Once something is played, it shouldn't change.  Think of things like Bank -- the order you play it in matters.
After testing it further today, I agree completely.
I am now testing it this version:
Galvanize - Duration - $5
+1 Action
Gain an Action card from the supply and put it onto this card. While this is in play, the Action on this card produces 1$ more when played.
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At the beginning of your next turn: +$2, discard this card and put the gained Action card back into the supply.

I removed the Attack completely. By making the player put a card from the supply onto this card I completely removed any tracking problems and hinder it from getting vastly exaggerated if you chain it multiple times. It also sort of fits the theme of changing the timing in games better as it can temporarily empty stacks.


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Hanging Gardens seems to anti-synergize with itself.  If you load up on them you'll end up trashing them as well as a second card only to gain a single card -- a net loss when you're actually trying to accumulate more cards.
Yeah, I will probably change the Action to something simple like 'gain a Silver' or a remodel variant that lets you take Treasure cards for up to $2 more.

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Accurst is really complicated, even more than Librarian.  What happens if you use it to gain a Duration card -- does it still get trashed?  Why do you keep saying "play an Action card from your hand" instead of just "+1 Action"?  How did you come up with the number of Blasphemy cards to use and what about 5 and 6 player games?
Yes, the duration card gets trashed. Like with every Dominion card you go through the instructions and follow them if you can, so you have to trash the duration card after you played it.
I tested it with 10 for two players and the pile never ran out in most situations. So I reduced it step by step.
You'll probably have to use 10 for 5 and 6 player games. ;)
I don't want people to have to print out extra cards when they play a 5 or 6 player game every so often and I really don't think many people play those. When we are 5 or 6 we will just split it in two games.

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Accurst is really weirdly balanced.  It feels like you kept adding more effects to balance it instead of just removing things or making effects smaller.  It's a curser.  It lets you trash coppers or curses and gain GOLD.  Oh, but that's too strong so make the Gold come with two Curses.  But that penalty doesn't work if the curses have run out, so it should have a different weaker, effect after that!  And hmm, before the curses run out, it doesn't do anything helpful so it should give you +$3 as well... and maybe that's still not enough so you can play another action after it either way...
Nope, the card was based on getting a benefit from an empty curse pile and giving you the option to speed up the process by taking curses yourself from the beginning. The Curses initially came with $2 instead of a Gold.

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Why would anyone ever try to trash Blasphemy?  Might as well just say "this card cannot be trashed."
If it said "this cannot be trashed" it would create some really weird interactions with other card. Take Lookout as an example: You reveal a Gold, a Province and a Blasphemy with. You discard the Province and put the Gold back. Now you choose to trash the Blasphemy (because the Dominion rules simply allow you to do so). What are you supposed to do with the card now? Discard it or put it back onto your pile?
What if played an Upgrade on a Blasphemy? Will you discard it or keep it in your hand?
It is simple better this way and does not lead to strange situations where you do not know what you are supposed to do with it when you choose to trash it (as far as I know by now). Besides that, it creates a few neat synergies like remodeling it several times into Estates in one turn or having it in your discard pile every turn after you trash it with Excorcist or being able to draw it with Lookout or making Upgrade into a real cantrip.


I am convinced that I should exchange "play an Action card" for +1 Action btw.




One thing I have to say is about librarian (and similar cards)
You say that librarian reacts with library because normally you don't want too many libraries.
But why not just have it react with estates or duchies or something? You don't want many of those either.
The idea of the concept of making them rely on other cards is to prolong the game a bit (or shorten it, depending on the Kingdom)
The current Librarian btw is this one:
Librarian - Action - $4
Reveal any number of cards from your hand and put them below your deck. Draw until you have 4 cards in hand.
You may discard a Library from your hand. If you do: Reveal cards from your deck until you revealed 4 cards that are not Victory cards. Put them into your hand and discard the other cards.

Easier to understand, no wonky -Action and does not make you trash the Library while being a (better) Library with a twist.
Might even get +1 Action, not sure yet.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2012, 07:14:07 pm by Schlippy »
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eHalcyon

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Re: Dominion: Lapse (fan card expansion debugging topic)
« Reply #10 on: June 05, 2012, 11:37:29 pm »
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Shanty Town, City and Bazaar are not named as a village. :>

Yes, but they are all still along the same idea.  Shanty Town and City are still places people live (as is Hamlet).  Bazaar goes a little further away from that because it is a marketplace.  The only village-like cards I can think of that don't have a village-like name are Crossroads (which is actually rather difference since it's +3 actions and only on first play) and Nobles (which is also a VP card with a +3 cards option).




It is a downside in trimmed decks.

Ehh... it would have to be really trimmed, and in that situation there isn't really anything you'll want to trash anymore!


Gardens, Vineyard, Hanging Gardens and Goons when there is a strong trasher in the Kingdom (or Watchtower), Peddler, to an extent Counting House.

OK, yes on the first three (though Vineyards would much prefer real cantrips).  I disagree on Goons -- I want Goons to be my terminal, not Woodcutter.  And while yes, Saw Mill will turn Woodcutters into non-terminals, that requires that they collide, and having a deck full of Woodcutters and Saw Mills makes it that much more difficult to connect my Goons.  And with Counting House, sure +Buy can help pick up a few extra copper, but you wouldn't want to fill your deck with Woodcutters to do that.

The idea of a card that lets you play another specific terminal (in this case Woodcutter) for free is actually rather weak.  I mean, it is like a Village that only works on one specific card.


Gold and Silver needs you to get at least 6 in a turn.
I don't think you can compare it to IGG, because the really strong part on IGG is the unblockable attack.

Do you mean that you need to hit $6 to buy Gold, making that "combo" more difficult?  Sure, but Silver is only $3.  To get two Copper Smelts you need to hit $5 twice. ;)


If it said "this cannot be trashed" it would create some really weird interactions with other card. Take Lookout as an example: You reveal a Gold, a Province and a Blasphemy with. You discard the Province and put the Gold back. Now you choose to trash the Blasphemy (because the Dominion rules simply allow you to do so). What are you supposed to do with the card now? Discard it or put it back onto your pile?
What if played an Upgrade on a Blasphemy? Will you discard it or keep it in your hand?
It is simple better this way and does not lead to strange situations where you do not know what you are supposed to do with it when you choose to trash it (as far as I know by now).

Hmm, fair point.




Glad you're coming around on +Action. :)
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Thanar

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Re: Dominion: Lapse (fan card expansion debugging topic)
« Reply #11 on: June 05, 2012, 11:40:12 pm »
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This set looks promising. Thanks for sharing it. Others have commented on the mechanics of the cards, so I'll offer a few corrections and suggested images:

Corrections
- For many of the cards that have extra room, the text needs to be a bit larger and the margins a bit larger.
- The proper spelling is "Exorcist" not "Excorcist"
- The coin symbols on the treasure cards (indicating how many coins they generate) are a bit small and are not centered properly.
- All the cards appear to have a totally black rectangle at the bottom edge of the card (even darker than the black border elsewhere on the card). Not sure if it is some overlay that was left on or what, but it might show up when the card is printed.

Hanging Gardens - There is a fairly iconic public domain image (painted before 1902 so the copyright has expired) of the Hanging Gardens of Babylon by Ferdinand Knab here:
http://www.artchive.com/web_gallery/F/Ferdinand-Knab/The-Hanging-Gardens-of-Babylon.html Another possibility is here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Hanging_Gardens_of_Babylon.jpg

Carpenter - I'd suggest this portrayal of Joseph as a medieval carpenter by Robert Campin:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Robert_Campin_-_M%C3%A9rode_Altarpiece_%28right_wing%29_-_WGA14422.jpg

Vice-Chancellor - Here are a few possibilities:
Matthew Parker, Vice-Chancellor of Cambridge University (1559-75): http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/archive/4/40/20090217172154!Matthew_Parker_%28Archbishop%29.jpg or http://www.archbishopofcanterbury.org/canterbury/data/files/media/imagelibrary/56/1559-Matthew-Parker.jpg

William Juxon, Vice-Chancellor of the University of Oxford (1626-27): http://www.milesbarton.com/work.htm?ID=158 or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:WilliamJuxon.jpg

Once some of the improvements have been implemented, I would certainly like a higher-res set to print out and play-test.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2012, 11:50:20 pm by Thanar »
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Schlippy

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Re: Dominion: Lapse (fan card expansion debugging topic)
« Reply #12 on: June 06, 2012, 09:52:29 am »
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Ehh... it would have to be really trimmed, and in that situation there isn't really anything you'll want to trash anymore!
You can set up a deck that buys several curses each turn (or several coppers while having two blasphemies) and get 3-4 VP-chips per turn. The need to have those card in the discard is a bad thing for such a strategy (unless you have a way to discard those cards before you play an Exorcist).

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The idea of a card that lets you play another specific terminal (in this case Woodcutter) for free is actually rather weak.  I mean, it is like a Village that only works on one specific card.
More like a Village combined with a Workshop that only lets you play/gain one specific card. For Goons to work well with Sawmill you need a draw engine.
Might be buffed in some way or another.


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Do you mean that you need to hit $6 to buy Gold, making that "combo" more difficult?  Sure, but Silver is only $3.  To get two Copper Smelts you need to hit $5 twice. ;)
It is not necessarily more difficult, it is another option if you fail to hit $6 several times. And actually, getting additional Copper Smelts is quite easy once you have a Copper Smelt. Sure you can get a Gold with the Copper from your first Copper Smelt, but than you'd have three extra Coppers in your deck you probably do not want. Stacked Gold might be worse than stacked Copper Smelts, depending on the Kingdom.



- For many of the cards that have extra room, the text needs to be a bit larger and the margins a bit larger.
- The proper spelling is "Exorcist" not "Excorcist"
- The coin symbols on the treasure cards (indicating how many coins they generate) are a bit small and are not centered properly.
- All the cards appear to have a totally black rectangle at the bottom edge of the card (even darker than the black border elsewhere on the card). Not sure if it is some overlay that was left on or what, but it might show up when the card is printed.
Yeah, the images were done relatively sloppy because of several reasons. I was sure that the cards will probably not be the final versions, I just wanted to have something for this topic that is more intuitive to read and to look at. The black rectangle is just a part of most templates from the BGG forums. Besides that, if you look closely at the sides of the images in the "window" on the cards, you'll notice that they are badly cut.
This will all be fixed once I am sure the cards play out good.

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Hanging Gardens - There is a fairly iconic public domain image (painted before 1902 so the copyright has expired) of the Hanging Gardens of Babylon by Ferdinand Knab here:
[...]
Thanks for the resources. One of the main reason to use the inverted Garden picture in this topic was the pun though. ;)

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Carpenter - I'd suggest this portrayal of Joseph as a medieval carpenter by Robert Campin:
[...]
That one is perfect. Thanks a lot.

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Vice-Chancellor - Here are a few possibilities:
[...]
These are very fine too. Thanks again.

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Once some of the improvements have been implemented, I would certainly like a higher-res set to print out and play-test.
They will come but it may take some time. If you want to help playtesting, use blank cards (or simply any Kingdom card) to test the current version of Galvanize. It still feels quite balanced for me, but I have only used it in 4 or 5 games so far.
Here is the current version with proper phrasing:

Galvanize - Duration - $5
+1 Action
Gain an Action card from the supply and put it on this card. While this is in play, copies of the Action card on this card produce $1 more for you when played.
----------
At the start of your next turn: +$2, put the Action card on this card back into the supply.


In case you wonder:
- You can Throne Room it and put any two Action cards from the supply on the card.
- It does not affect other players.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2012, 09:54:58 am by Schlippy »
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