Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: [1] 2  All

Author Topic: Fan Expansion: Clockwork (25 Card expansion) (now cancelled :<)  (Read 21186 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Schlippy

  • Conspirator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 203
  • Respect: +60
    • View Profile
+4

Introduction:
Good news everyone! As Goko didn't go online after all and as I had some spare time to get rid of
I updated this topic with the current Iterations of all the cards. Besides that I added a small
rule section and FAQs for all the cards. If you just wanna know what changed, either look at those
fancy images or scroll to the end of this post. If there is demand for suggested Kingdoms using
this set, I can write down a few that were fun or had a bunch of neat interactions.

This expansion now houses 25 new Kingdom cards. As the clockwork name suggests, many of these cards
are enablers for alternative winning strategies, some are capable of shortening the game and some
are capable lengthening the game.

After getting a few ideas from some people I showed this set to, I partially do agree that some of the more complicated ones like Misfit can be simplified quite a bit without losing much of the basic idea behind them. However, due to human error while emigrating my personal data to another machine I lost all editable image files from this set. :<
Thus this set will stay as is. While it is only "semi-finished" it is definitely playable in this state and has a lot of neat interactions. (Troll has a wording error though and should say "Gain a Treasure card costing up to $1 more than the most expensive revealed Action card." in the middle part).

I'll most likely take a few of the "easy" cards that people who saw this set liked a lot (Galvanize, Polycephaly, Alpine Village and Sawmill) and put them into another one, maybe with slight changes. :]

In case you want the high resolution version of a specific card, just click it. All of the images
are either public domain, done by me, or public domain and edited by me.




Rules:
There is only one "special" rulecase in this expansion. Clockwerk houses a special Curse card that is
called Blasphemy. Blasphemies are always used as an additional Kingdom pile when the card Accurst is
part of the Kingdom. They form an 11th pile (or 12th pile with Young Witch). The Blasphemy pile
contains 5 Blasphemy cards for a 2-player game, 7 for a 3-player game and 10 for a 4-player game.
Other than that it is a standard Supply pile. If the pile is empty, that counts towards a 3-pile ending.
If a third pile empties at any point in the game and one of the empty piles is the Blasphemy pile the
game is over after that turn, even if you fill up the Blasphemy pile again during that turn. This is a
standard rule that is explicitly stated in the Seaside rulebook, as the same thing can happen with
Ambassador. You can buy Blasphemy cards from the Supply.
Blasphemy cards have the type Action - Curse. This means they are Action cards as much as they are
Curse cards. They are not Curses though. A Curse is a Curse card too. Some cards in the game refer to
Curses, some refer to Curse cards. If a card (a.E. Mountebank) tells you to gain (or discard) a Curse,
you always gain (or discard) the standard Curse. However there are some cards in the game that refer
to Curse cards. Namely these are Witch, Torturer, Fortune Teller, Embargo, Sea Hag and Excorcist (from
this set). If one of these tells you to gain a Curse card, you can choose if you want to gain the
vanilla Curse or a Blasphemy. But as long as there are Curse cards in the game, you have to gain a Curse
card. You can not choose to take a Blasphemy when there are no Blasphemies left in the Supply but there
are Curses left in the Supply. You can not choose to skip either Curses or Blasphemies when you are
attacked by Fortune Teller.

Because Blasphemy itself has a lot of fun interactions with other cards, I suggest you randomly use it in
random Kingdoms (as one of the 10 random Supply piles), even when Accurst is not in the Kingdom. As
there are some games where having the Blasphemy is utterly useless (a.E. with no remodel variants, no
trash for benefit cards, etc.) I also suggest that you make a simple veto poll before every game where
it is in the Kingdom without Accurst. Simply ask each player if they want to have it in that Kingdom or
not, and if everyone agrees that they don't want to have it, replace it by another random card.


FAQ:

Accurst: If this is part of the Kingdom, you will always use Blasphemy cards as an additional
Kingdom pile, so you have 11 Kingdom Piles (12 with Young Witch).
When you play this, you get +$2. Then you may choose to gain a Blasphemy from the Blasphemy pile. No matter
if you gained a Blasphemy or didn't, if the pile containing the Blasphmies is empty, you play an Action card
that costs $4 or less from the Supply and trash it after you played it. If you play a Duration card with this, you
will get the bonus in the next turn although you trashed the card and the Accurst will stay out until the end of
your next turn.  (This is in the Seaside rules; using another card to play a Duration card will make the other card
stay out until the Clean-up of your next turn.) If you play Goons with this (by reducing the cost of the cards before
you play the Accurst) you do not get any VP chips for buying, as you have trashed the Goons directly after
playing and they are "not in play". This applies to all "while this is in play" clauses; playing a Highway
with Accurst will not net you the cost reduction, because as soon as you have finished playing that Highway
you have to trash it and cards in the trash are not in play anymore. If you play a Baldachin (a Duration card
from this set) with Accurst, you discard the Action you played with the Baldachin at the end of your turn,
because the Baldachin is not in play anymore. At no point do you gain the card that you play with Accurst. It
explicitly says "immediately play a card from the Supply". You can not reveal a Watchtower and trash or
topdeck the card or reveal a Trader and gain a Silver as you do not gain it. You can not reveal a Carpenter (a
Reaction card from this set) and set the card aside.
After you finished resolving the Action card that you played with Accurst, each other player gains a Blasphemy
in turn order.
Playing an Action card from the Supply with Accurst does not use up one of your Actions (playing the Accurst does
use up one of your Actions though).

Alpine Village: The first part of this card works exactly like Village. After you drew the card,
you may discard 2 cards and draw another card. You only draw another card if you discarded exactly 2 cards. If
you discarded only 1 card because you only had 1 card in your hand, you do not draw another card.


Bakery: When you play a Bakery, it behaves exactly like a Laboratory. When you gain a Bakery (no
matter if you bought it or gained it through another card) you name a Victory card that is part of the Kingdom
and has its own Supply pile. If the Supply pile of the card you named has 5 or less cards in it, you put the
Bakery that you gained on top of your deck. If it has more than 5 cards in it, you put the Bakery under your
deck. You can only name Victory cards that are in the Kingdom, can be bought and have their own Supply pile.
You may not name Victory cards that cannot be bought or do not have their own Supply pile - you can not name
Overgrown Estates, Dame Josephine (from Dark ages) or a card that is in the Black Market deck. If the named
pile is empty, you put the Bakery on top of your deck. You can reveal a Watchtower to topdeck a Bakery that
you'd have to put below your deck. You can also reveal a Carpenter (a Reaction card from this set) to set a
Bakery aside that you'd have to topdeck or put below your deck. If you reveal a Trader you do not topdeck the
Silver or put it below your deck. As you do not gain a Bakery in that case, you do not even name a Victory card.


Baldachin: When you play a Baldachin, you may play an Action card from your hand. You will not use
up an additional Action for playing that card, just like with Throne Room. For a clearly arranged playing area,
please put the Action card you play onto the Baldachin card. During your Clean-up phase you do not discard the
Action card that you played with Baldachin, as long as the Baldachin is still in play. If you topdeck the
Baldachin with Scheme you still have to discard the Action card that you played with it, because the Baldachin
is not in play anymore. If you play a Baldachin twice with a Throne Room, all Actions cards you played with the
Baldachin stay in your playing area and are not discarded, because the "while this is in play" clause does not
specify that it only works for one card.
At the start of your next turn, you can choose whether to put the Baldachin or the Action card on it into your
hand and immediately discard the other one. If you played a Baldachin twice with the help of the Throne Room, you
choose twice. You may choose to do things that you can not complete. You can choose to put the Baldachin into
your hand, discard one of the Actions, and then choose to put the Baldachin into your hand again, discarding the
other Action. You may also choose to put one of the Actions into your hand, discarding the Baldachin, and putting
the Baldachin into your hand (which you can not do, as you have discarded it). You may also choose to simply put
both Actions into your hand, and discard the Baldachin.

Blasphemy: Blasphemy is a Curse card, but is not a Curse. Please read the rule section if you need
further information on this. If you use Blasphemies, no matter if you use them because Accurst is in the Kingdom
or because it was randomed, the Supply pile only contains 5/7/10 cards for 2/3/4 players.
When you play a Blasphemy, you put the card back into the Supply. Then you choose to either gain 3 Copper, gain
a Curse or or gain 2 Curses and trash up to 2 cards from your hand. You can choose options that you can not
complete, a.E. choosing to gain a Curse when Curses are empty or gaining 2 Curses and trashing two cards from
your hand when Curses are empty.
When you trash a Blasphemy, you gain a Curse and put the Blasphemy into your hand. When Curses are empty you do
not gain one, but you still put the Blasphemy into your hand. For example, you can buy 3 Farmlands and gain 3
Duchies by trashing the same Blasphemy three times within the same turn.
You can buy Blasphemys if you want to. If a card tells you to gain a Curse card (for example, Witch) and
Blasphemies are in the Supply, you may gain a Blasphemy instead of a Curse (unless there are no Blasphemies left).
But if a card tells you to gain a Curse, you have to gain a standard Curse. Blasphemy is a Curse card, but is not
a Curse. Curse is a Curse card too. Please read the rule section for further explanation.
When you reveal a Watchtower to trash a Blasphemy you are gaining, you put it into your hand and gain a Curse
(which you then can trash with your Watchtower).
Blasphmies are also Action cards. If you play a Golem and reveal a Blasphemy, you have to play the Blasphemy.


Carpenter: When you play a Carpenter, you may gain a copy of an Action card in your hand costing up
to $4. You may reveal another Carpenter from your hand as you gain this Action. You can not reveal the Carpenter
you played, as it is not in your hand anymore.
When you gain an Action card, you may reveal a Carpenter from your hand and set it aside with the Action card you
gained. At the start of your next turn you play both cards in any order. It does not matter if you gain the Action
card in your turn or in the turn of someone else through things like Swindler, Saboteur, Demodel or Accurst.
Playing the cards at the start of your next turn does not use up one of your Actions. If you reveal a Watchtower to
trash or topdeck the gained Action card you can still reveal the Carpenter and set the Carpenter aside, you can
however not set the Action card aside anymore in that case, as the Carpenter has lost track of it. If you do it the
other way around, you can not topdeck the Action card or trash it, as it has already been set aside by the Carpenter.
You may resolve things happening at the start of your turn in any order. For example, if you are gaining a Counting
House due to a Swindler attack and set aside Horse Traders and reveal a Carpenter to set it and the Counting House
aside, you can pick up the Horse Traders before you play the Carpenter so you are able to copy it with your Carpenter.
You can not play the Action card you gained, then resolve the Horse traders and then play the Carpenter. You have to
resolve both plays of the Carpenter one after another when you resolve the Carpenter.
When you set aside the Carpenter with a Duration card that you gained, the Carpenter will be discarded in the Clean-up
of the turn where you resolved its reaction part. It will not stay out with the Duration card, because you did not directly
play the Duration card with the Carpenter.


Copper Smelt: You have to resolve every Copper Smelt by itself. If you play two Copper Smelts, trash 3
Copper with the first one and no copper with the second one, you have to gain 3 Copper.


Demodel: After a player trashes a card, he gains any card (it can also be a Victory card or Curse card)
that you choose that is within the cost window. If a player trashes a Gardens, he gains a card that either costs $3,
4$, 5$ or 6$. You may gain a copy of the card he gains, but you do not have to. If the Attack affects several people,
you are entitled to gain 1 copy per player, but you can not for example take two Duchies if you give player Hans a
Duchy and player Franz a Curse. If the Supply pile of a specific card is empty after the other players gained their
cards, you can not gain a copy of it. You can not choose to give them cards from empty piles if there are other cards
within that cost window. If there is a card that costs $1 less, exactly as much or up to $2 more you have to give them
that card. You can not say to Franz that he should gain a card costing 7 when there is none. If there is no card in that
cost window, they do not gain a card. You can not let them gain cards with a Potion cost if they trash a card without
a Potion cost. However, you can give them cards with a Potion cost and cards without a Potion cost when they trash a
card with a Potion cost.


Drunkard: The first thing you do is drawing 3 cards. Then you may gain a Potion. Then you may trash
Victory cards and Potions for benefit. You may not trash any cards that are not Victory cards or Potions (combined
Victory cards like Nobles, Great hall, Island or Hanging Gardens are Victory cards).


Exorcist: If your discard pile has no cards in it, you can not trash any cards. Blasphemies and Curses
are Curse cards. If you trash at least 3 cards that are not Blasphemies or Curses you have to gain a Curse, trash the
Exorcist and get +2VP chips.


Galvanize: You take an Action card from the Supply. You do not gain it. You can not reveal
Watchtower, Trader or Carpenter to do something with it. When a specific pile is empty, you can not choose to take a
card from that pile. The card you put on the Galvanize does not produce anything, because you did not play it.
If you take a card that does not produce any +$ by itself, it will still produce $1 by itself when it is on a
Galvanize. You can take a Throne Room and then every Throne Room in that turn will produce $1 for you. The effect
stacks, so if you play two Galvanize and put a Throne Room on both of them, Throne Rooms will produce $2 for you
when you play them. The effect does not work recursively. If Hans plays two Schemes and then a Galvanize (on which
he puts a Scheme) and then another Scheme, he will have $1, not $3.
If you play Galvanize with Throne Room and you take two Schemes, Schemes will still produce only $1, because there
is only one card on the Galvanize and only one Galvanize in play. Hoewever, if you take a Scheme and a Pearl Diver
then both of them will produce $1 more, even if they're both on the same Galvanize.
If you empty a pile by playing Galvanize, it still counts towards three piles endings. If Galvanize fills up a pile
in a turn where a third pile was emptied, the game still ends at the end of that turn. (Seaside rules)
Let's say it's Franz' turn. Fishing Villages and Gardens are empty and there is only 1 card left in the Scheme pile.
Franz gained a Workshop due to Hans Swindler before this turn and revealed a Carpenter to set it aside. In his last
turn he Galvanized a Scheme. As Franz is free to resolve his starting Actions in any order he wishes, he starts by
playing the Workshop and Carpenter. He gains the last Scheme and reveals nothing with his Carpenter. Now three piles
are empty. Then he resolves his Galvanize and puts the Scheme on it back into its empty Supply pile. From the $2 he
now has he buys an Estate and wins the game with 1 point lead over Hans (that sneaky bastard).


Hanging Gardens: When you play Hanging Gardens you trash a card from your hand and gain two Treasure cards,
One of them costing up to $1 more and one costing exactly $2 less. If there is no card costing exactly $2 less (a.E.
when you trash a Copper) you don't gain the second card. If there is no card that is costing up to $1 more (that is
very unlikely, but it can happen), you don't gain the first card. It does not say "but never less than $0" on the card,
so if you trash a card with a cost of $0 or $1 you will only gain one card.
At the end of the game Hanging Gardens are worth 1 Point for every 5 Treasure cards in your deck. If there is at least 1
Hanging Gardens in your deck at the end of the game, you have to trash 10 Copper from your deck before you start counting
your points/Treasure cards. If you do not have 10 Copper, you trash all the Copper from your deck.


Hourglass: This is a Treasure card. Playing it does not use up an Action. You do not have to put an Action
card from your hand on top of your deck if you don't want to.


Librarian: You start with discarding down to three cards in hand. Then you draw three cards and then you
may discard a Duchy. When you reveal cards you skip Victory cards and Curse cards. This includes Blasphemies and Curses
as well as combined Victory cards.


Mansion: You may play this to trash it for a Mansion token. If you do not have any Mansion tokens because
you pirated this expansion, please use potatoes, vinyl shards, fully grown mustache hairs or just some tokens from
the original Dominion games to mimic the Mansion tokens. You can also just use set aside cards that are not in the
Kingdom


Minutemen: This one is really simple, so I guess I answered all the questions.


Misfit: When you play this, you can not choose not to discard an Action if you have one and discard a Treasure
card instead. You reveal your hand, and if there is at least one Action card in it, you have to discard one Action card.
If you didn't discard one (because there wasn't one in your hand) you have to discard a Treasure card except Copper.
Then each other player either discards an Action card, or discards down to three cards in hand. They choose which one.



Monocle: Monocle is a Treasure card. Playing it is only possible in your buy phase and does not use up one
of your Actions. Besides the $1 it gives you it is basically the attack effect of Spy just only for yourself.
When you reveal it due to someone else playing an Attack card, you may look at the top 3 cards of your deck and
rearrange them or discard some of them. This is basically the effect of Cartographer with only 3 cards. If you discard
at least one card, you have to discard or trash (your choice) the Monocle. If you discard none you can keep it and reveal
it again, which can be quite useful considering the fact that you can reveal as many reactions as you like.


Polycephaly: I think the best way to answer questions regarding this card is to just give a few examples.
Franz has a hand of 4 Copper. He plays Polycephaly and trashes 2 Copper. Hans has a hand of 2 Estates and 2 Copper.
He plays Polycephaly and trashes 2 Estates and 2 Copper. Franz has a hand 3 Silver, 3 Estates, 5 Copper, 2 Witches
and 1 Council Room. He plays Polycephaly and trashes 2 Silver, 2 Estates, 2 Copper and 2 Witches, leaving him with a
hand of Silver, Estate, 3 Copper and a Council Room. Hans has a hand of 1 Silver, 1 Gold, 1 Copper, 1 Estate, 1 Market
and Goons. He plays Polycephaly and trashes nothing.


Pure Copper: Actions left means literally Actions left, not Action cards left. The card does not care
if you have Action cards left in your hand.


Rook: You choose one. That's about it.


Sawmill: After you discarded 2 Victory cards, you can choose between +$2 and 1 Card. You can only discard
if you discard exactly 2 Victory cards. You can not choose to discard 2 Victory cards with only 1 Victory card in your
hand. Just as the card says, you may discard exactly 2 Victory cards. Not more, not less.


Troll: If someone reveals an Action card, the gain is mandatory, even if the only Treasure card you can get
is Copper. If no one reveals an Action card, you can choose not to gain a Treasure if you don't want to.


Turncoat: When you play this and choose to pass it to your left neighbor, the -$3 can reduce your money
below 0. So if you pass it to your left neighbor and play 5 Copper, you will only have $2 for your buy phase. If you have
-$x you can not buy anything, not even a Copper, as there are no cards that reduce the cost of cards below $0. So often
the best idea is to set it back until you draw it with a hand that wouldn't net you anything good anyways.
The reaction part simply allows you to trash Turncoats from your hand when someone else buys one.
When you buy a Turncoat yourself, you are never gaining a copy - only the other players gain one. You can not reveal a
Watchtower or Trader, as you are never gaining a card in the first place. However, when someone else buys a Turncoat, you
can reveal a Watchtower or Trader and trash it or take a Silver instead.
When you buy a Turncoat, you'll get +1 Buy. So if you have $12 to spend, but only one Buy, you can actually buy a
Turncoat and then a Province if you want to. You could also buy three Turncoats in that situation.
Buying a Turncoat is not an Attack and you can not block it with Moat or reveal a Secret Chamber. As you gain an Action
card, you can reveal Watchtower, Trader or Carpenter though.


Vice Chancellor: When you reveal the top 4 cards of your deck, you have to discard them. Franz can not choose
to reveal and then say "wow, these are really good cards, I will put them back". He can only choose not to reveal them in
the first place. Other players are entitled to see what cards you discard with Vice Chancellor.



Quote
Updates:
Baldachin: Lost mandatory discard; can now put itself into your hand in the next turn and immediately discards itself if it doesn't. Received a "while this is in play" clause to fix some rare situations that sends action cards into some nonentity-state with no possibility of retrieving them.
Monocle: Cost reduced to $2 and discard on reaction only mandatory if you discard cards; can be self-trashed instead of discarded when using the reaction.
Rook: Moved cost to $2 (from $3).
Troll: Now gains you a Treasure card costing up to $5 when no Action cards are revealed (was $3 before).
Drunkard: Can now trash any Victory cards, not just Estates.
Carpenter: Reaction changed. Now works in your buy phase, but is always delayed to the next turn (and plays the carpenter too)
Hourglass: Cost increased to $5, top-decking non-mandatory with a 'you may'-clause.
Misfit: If you don't have an Action card in your hand, you have to discard a Treasure card that is not a Copper.
Turncoat: Complete overhaul.
Accurst: Inverted actions. ('You may gain a Blasphemy' then 'If Blasphmies empty, you may play an Action card from the Supply' then 'each other player gains a Blasphemy')
Blasphemy: Moved back to -1VP again. Gain Coppers reduced to 3. Cost increased to 3. Is now a standard Kingdom card.
Copper Smelt: Now produces $0 by itself.
Hanging Gardens: Now gains you two Treasure cards for trashing. Trashes 10 Coppers from your deckat the end of the game if you have a copy of it. VP changed to 1 VP for every 5 Treasure cards in your deck (from 2VP for every 10 Treasure cards).
Librarian: Now skips Curses (and Blasphemies) too
Bakery: On buy reworked. "When you buy this, name a Victory card that is part of the Kingdom. If there are less than 6 copies left in the pile of the named card, put this on top of your deck. Otherwise put this under your deck."
Sawmill: cost reduced to 3 (from 4)
« Last Edit: September 02, 2012, 01:15:28 pm by Schlippy »
Logged
I do upload some Dominion videos on youtube now. :)

heron

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1055
  • Shuffle iT Username: heron
  • Respect: +1183
    • View Profile
Re: Fan Expansion: Clockwork (25 Card expansion, Beta)
« Reply #1 on: June 12, 2012, 04:51:31 pm »
0

Nice revisions.

I still think hourglass should cost five, but it's your set and it could really go either way.
Misfit also seems a tad powerful in BM strategies, probably beats BM-Smithy by a good bit.
Other than that, it al looks pretty good based on by quick read-through.
Turncoat is much easier to understand, although I have no clue whether it's good or not, I'm going to assume it's fine and you've play tested.
On galvanize, if a supply pile is empty, can you choose to galvanize that card?
If the answer is no, galvanize gets trickier to use well, which I like. If you're market-spamming with a galvanize added in, then your opponent can counter easily by buying the last few markets. Neat.

The Baldachin Q's and A's are switched.
For Blasphemy, maybe you should just write in that the Blasphemy pile should be added and put more info in the FAQ to save space.

This is a very nice set, I think; excellent revisions.
Logged

Schlippy

  • Conspirator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 203
  • Respect: +60
    • View Profile
Re: Fan Expansion: Clockwork (25 Card expansion, Beta)
« Reply #2 on: June 12, 2012, 05:13:34 pm »
0

I still think hourglass should cost five, but it's your set and it could really go either way.
Unless you have a very low density of terminals, you will have more terminal collisions after a certain amount of Hourglasses than you will have without it. And if you have a very low density of terminals, you wouldn't buy Hourglasses in the first place.
Quote
Misfit also seems a tad powerful in BM strategies, probably beats BM-Smithy by a good bit.
It is quite powerful in BM strategies, but I think that's ok because the set offers a good amount of alternatives to BM strategies.
Quote
Turncoat is much easier to understand, although I have no clue whether it's good or not, I'm going to assume it's fine and you've play tested.
It is basically an on buy Sea hag with a little twist.
Quote
On galvanize, if a supply pile is empty, can you choose to galvanize that card?
If the answer is no, galvanize gets trickier to use well, which I like. If you're market-spamming with a galvanize added in, then your opponent can counter easily by buying the last few markets. Neat.
That's the point. If there is no card on the Galvanize it nets you no bonus. (despite the $1 in your next turn). (Though this will happen nearly never, as you have to take an Action card from the Supply, and unless there is only one more pile with Action cards the game will have ended because of 3 empty piles. ;))
But if you somehow manage to set up a crazy draw engine that let's you play at least 1 Galvanize each turn, your enemy will never be able to buy that last Market. In that case you'll probably have won anyways. :>

Quote
For Blasphemy, maybe you should just write in that the Blasphemy pile should be added and put more info in the FAQ to save space.
Well, it just fits on the card, even in the same text size. Because of an optical illusion it looks like the bottom part is slightly bigger in size, although it only has a little bit less letter spacing. ;)

Quote
This is a very nice set, I think; excellent revisions.
Thank you. :)
« Last Edit: June 12, 2012, 05:31:30 pm by Schlippy »
Logged
I do upload some Dominion videos on youtube now. :)

heron

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1055
  • Shuffle iT Username: heron
  • Respect: +1183
    • View Profile
Re: Fan Expansion: Clockwork (25 Card expansion, Beta)
« Reply #3 on: June 12, 2012, 05:25:57 pm »
0

Whoops, I meant Accurst, not Blasphemy.

And my problem with hourglass, is, like you say, the player with few terminals will not benefit from it, but they can just buy it anyway half the time because it only costs one more than silver.
Then, every 10 turns, they get lucky and do benefit.
I think Donald X. mentioned something about $4 silver variants somewhere.
Logged

eHalcyon

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8689
  • Respect: +9187
    • View Profile
Re: Fan Expansion: Clockwork (25 Card expansion, Beta)
« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2012, 05:33:37 pm »
0

Hmm... while the redraw attack of Minuteman might be useful with hand-viewing (e.g. Cutpurse when they don't have Copper), in general it's not very useful.  In fact, in the early-mid game, it helps them by increasing cycling.

I think Baldachin is too similar to Scheme.

From your testing, does the reaction on Monocle actually warrant a $3 cost?  It doesn't help you against the attack.  Against Rabble, it doesn't even help your next hand.

I think Rook is too similar to Steward and Pawn.

I think Troll is rather weak.  I can see it being useful in games where you want lots of silver.  It might be situationally useful if your opponent has trashed all their weak cards and has a strong enough engine to get you Gold.  Maybe also helpful with alt treasures on the board.  Nonetheless don't think it's worth $3 unless it gets an immediate benefit, like +$1 or +1 Card...

I'm glad you went with the "you may reveal and discard" mechanic on Vice Chancellor.  I wonder if the bonus +$1 makes it too strong for $3 though. 

Still not sure about Drunkard.  Very difficult to evaluate without actually testing it.

I like the name "Alpine village".  I think it is too similar to Inn, but having the discard in the middle of drawing the second card might make it play differently enough.  And yeah, it doesn't have the on-gain.

For Carpenter, I think you need to say "discard this from your hand".  As worded, I could legally discard it from play and still get the effect. ;)

Not sure about Mansion.  You need 6 Estates before it's worth trashing the Mansion.

You can more succinctly phrase the Misfit attack as "Each other player discards an Action card or discards down to 3 cards in hand."  It's always one or the other.  I like this.

Turncoat... I don't think it is balanced in a real game with only 10 copies; especially with more than two players.  P1 gets a sizeable advantage from this card while p2 is doubly hurt.  Your description of it as an "on-buy Sea Hag" is on point, and also why I think it's not a good idea at all.  Sea Hag is already extremely powerful.  IGG is stupid good for being able to get a Curse out before the first reshuffle.  This card basically lets P1 destroy everyone else's second turn of the game.

Suppose it's a 4 player game and everyone starts 4/3.  P1 buys this immediately and it goes into the other 3 decks.  There are 7 left in the supply.  P2 does the same thing; 4 left in the supply.  He then draws the Turncoat given to him by p1 and he either gets a curse already or ruins his turn 2.  P3 again does the same thing; 1 Turncoat left in the supply.  When he draws his next hand, he actually picks up TWO Turncoats.  It's almost guaranteed that he discards down to 2, to mitigate the effect of two Turncoats at once. p4 buys the last Turncoat and (this will have to be addressed by FAQ, but presumably) the last Turncoat goes to p1.  In cleanup, p4 draws THREE Turncoats and trashes them all, discarding down to 2.  P1 takes a normal second turn, then deals with the Turncoat in hand.  P2 probably does nothing because of the Turncoat earlier (why take a curse just to save a $2/3 turn?) and ends up getting hit by ANOTHER Turncoat, from p3.  p3 and p4 don't have to deal with another Turncoat.

So basically what happened was p1 gets a regular 4/3 opening followed by Turncoat; p3 and p4 get a $4 opening and a messed up second turn; p2 gets a $4 opening and TWO screwed turns in a row.  And also, one pile is already empty.

Now, maybe it's OK because if you buy Turncoat you're not improving your own deck in any way.  But I think this card just sounds aggravating to play with, not fun at all. :\

Demodel -- So you choose the card that replaces the trashed card, which can be up to $2 more or down to $1 less than the trash card.  Is my interpretation correct?  Unlike Saboteur, this can't hit VP (barring hybrids).  However, it can turn Copper to Curse and Silver to Estate... man that's scary.  Not sure if balanced because Saboteur sounds scary as well, but isn't really.  But Demodel is so much more versatile and dangerous in the early game... hm.

Galvanize -- as it is now, I don't see a reason for it to be a duration.  I'd recommend removing the next turn $1 and keeping the other-Action-upgrade for the next turn.

Hanging Gardens -- I like it, except for the fact that this really really encourages a boring BM strategy.  Can't think of a simple fix.

Librarian -- This is some huge draw.  If you manage to find a Duchy within a search space of 7 (5 card hand +3 cards drawn, less the Librarian) then you get ANOTHER 3 cards.  Wow.  I imagine that this would be well used in a Duchy rush, thanks to the large draw and the +Buy.  And it's actually fairly green-tolerant because the second draw ignores victory cards.  I think it's really neat and I don't think it is broken.  What did playtesting show?

Bakery -- I don't like that it is a Lab.  The bonus is rather neat (sounds like you're following Haggler, but "number of revealed Victory Cards that is not a Victory card" is easily misinterpreted as something contradictory) except that it is a liability if Bakery is drawn late, or at all during the middle game.  In these cases your deck might not have any VP at all, in which case you are forced to take a Copper. :(
Logged

Schlippy

  • Conspirator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 203
  • Respect: +60
    • View Profile
Re: Fan Expansion: Clockwork (25 Card expansion, Beta)
« Reply #5 on: June 12, 2012, 07:24:54 pm »
0

Hmm... while the redraw attack of Minuteman might be useful with hand-viewing (e.g. Cutpurse when they don't have Copper), in general it's not very useful.  In fact, in the early-mid game, it helps them by increasing cycling.
Yes, but it is very useful vs top decking (Alchemist, Goons engine with Watchtower, Scheme!)

Quote
I think Baldachin is too similar to Scheme.
It is quite different. It is not a cantrip but it can not be bothered with a lot through discard attacks.

Quote
From your testing, does the reaction on Monocle actually warrant a $3 cost?  It doesn't help you against the attack.  Against Rabble, it doesn't even help your next hand.
It depends. It (often) helps against Swindler, Demodel and the like. Apart from that, the reaction is basically a Cartographer. It can help against Rabble if you discard VP cards with it.

Quote
I think Rook is too similar to Steward and Pawn.
That's actually why the card is called Rook. Like Pawn, it is a rather cheap support card that can help in a lot of Kingdoms.

Quote
I think Troll is rather weak.  I can see it being useful in games where you want lots of silver.  It might be situationally useful if your opponent has trashed all their weak cards and has a strong enough engine to get you Gold.  Maybe also helpful with alt treasures on the board.  Nonetheless don't think it's worth $3 unless it gets an immediate benefit, like +$1 or +1 Card...
It used to have 1 Action, but I removed it. Mainly because in a lot of games it is incredibly easy to get Gold with it quite early; people want those strong $5 Terminals. ;)

Quote
I'm glad you went with the "you may reveal and discard" mechanic on Vice Chancellor.  I wonder if the bonus +$1 makes it too strong for $3 though.
Compare it to Fishing Village.

Quote
I like the name "Alpine village".  I think it is too similar to Inn, but having the discard in the middle of drawing the second card might make it play differently enough.  And yeah, it doesn't have the on-gain.
I actually never thought about Inn. Now that you say it, it compares to Inn like Cellar compares to Warehouse.

Quote
For Carpenter, I think you need to say "discard this from your hand".  As worded, I could legally discard it from play and still get the effect. ;)
Good point, even says so in my cardlist. Might be hard to bring it in without sacrificing font size. ;)

Quote
Not sure about Mansion.  You need 6 Estates before it's worth trashing the Mansion.
Nope, you need 4 Estates before it's worth trashing the Mansion, because then your deck is less clogged up. However, if you plan on buying (or gaining) Estates at some point anyway, you can trash Mansions early on.

Quote
You can more succinctly phrase the Misfit attack as "Each other player discards an Action card or discards down to 3 cards in hand."  It's always one or the other.  I like this.
Might change that. I had something like that with choose, but I noticed that you could just choose to discard an Action card when you had none.

Quote
Turncoat... I don't think it is balanced in a real game with only 10 copies; especially with more than two players.  P1 gets a sizeable advantage from this card while p2 is doubly hurt.  Your description of it as an "on-buy Sea Hag" is on point, and also why I think it's not a good idea at all.  Sea Hag is already extremely powerful.  IGG is stupid good for being able to get a Curse out before the first reshuffle.  This card basically lets P1 destroy everyone else's second turn of the game.

Suppose it's a 4 player game and everyone starts 4/3.  P1 buys this immediately and it goes into the other 3 decks.  There are 7 left in the supply.  P2 does the same thing; 4 left in the supply.  He then draws the Turncoat given to him by p1 and he either gets a curse already or ruins his turn 2.  P3 again does the same thing; 1 Turncoat left in the supply.  When he draws his next hand, he actually picks up TWO Turncoats.  It's almost guaranteed that he discards down to 2, to mitigate the effect of two Turncoats at once. p4 buys the last Turncoat and (this will have to be addressed by FAQ, but presumably) the last Turncoat goes to p1.  In cleanup, p4 draws THREE Turncoats and trashes them all, discarding down to 2.  P1 takes a normal second turn, then deals with the Turncoat in hand.  P2 probably does nothing because of the Turncoat earlier (why take a curse just to save a $2/3 turn?) and ends up getting hit by ANOTHER Turncoat, from p3.  p3 and p4 don't have to deal with another Turncoat.
So basically what happened was p1 gets a regular 4/3 opening followed by Turncoat; p3 and p4 get a $4 opening and a messed up second turn; p2 gets a $4 opening and TWO screwed turns in a row.  And also, one pile is already empty.

Now, maybe it's OK because if you buy Turncoat you're not improving your own deck in any way.  But I think this card just sounds aggravating to play with, not fun at all. :\
Good points. Such extreme situations never occured to me, as I noticed in two-player playtesting that it is nearly never worth it to slow yourself down by skipping the first or second buy for the attack. I will most likely dilute that in some way.

Quote
Demodel -- So you choose the card that replaces the trashed card, which can be up to $2 more or down to $1 less than the trash card.  Is my interpretation correct?  Unlike Saboteur, this can't hit VP (barring hybrids).  However, it can turn Copper to Curse and Silver to Estate... man that's scary.  Not sure if balanced because Saboteur sounds scary as well, but isn't really.  But Demodel is so much more versatile and dangerous in the early game... hm.
It is more or less a mixture of a Saboteur that never hits Victory cards, a Swindler without +$ that never hits Estates, and a Jester without +$. It is a lot more scary early game than a Swindler and it is also a lot less swingy than a Swindler, but if you swindle that $5 into a Duchy or a Copper into a Curse you will gain no profit (unless you want a Duchy).

Quote
Galvanize -- as it is now, I don't see a reason for it to be a duration.  I'd recommend removing the next turn $1 and keeping the other-Action-upgrade for the next turn.
It was that way but was too strong on the one hand (because it lasted two turns) and to vulnerable on the other (because you couldn't chain it on that last cantrip in the Supply).
Another reason for it being a duration card is that it is a lot less severe in very slim decks and draw engines this way.

Quote
Hanging Gardens -- I like it, except for the fact that this really really encourages a boring BM strategy.  Can't think of a simple fix.
It is a lot better in other strategies that can make frequent use of +Buy.

Quote
Librarian -- This is some huge draw.  If you manage to find a Duchy within a search space of 7 (5 card hand +3 cards drawn, less the Librarian) then you get ANOTHER 3 cards.  Wow.  I imagine that this would be well used in a Duchy rush, thanks to the large draw and the +Buy.  And it's actually fairly green-tolerant because the second draw ignores victory cards.  I think it's really neat and I don't think it is broken.  What did playtesting show?
It had discard 2 cards instead of discard down to 3 (and drew only +2 cards) for a handful of games and was extremely powerful in strong draw engines. After I changed it down to 3 it was a lot less capable in those engines, while still being fun. Especially with trashing, you can set up really neat and quite solid things with this, even without any +Actions on the board. :)

Quote
Bakery -- I don't like that it is a Lab.  The bonus is rather neat (sounds like you're following Haggler, but "number of revealed Victory Cards that is not a Victory card" is easily misinterpreted as something contradictory) except that it is a liability if Bakery is drawn late, or at all during the middle game.  In these cases your deck might not have any VP at all, in which case you are forced to take a Copper. :(
Yeah, I might get rid of the "that is not a Victory card", simply because it encourages alternative winning strategies. You might misunderstand the card though, the gain a card portion is only on buy. It is more like a Border Village than a Haggler in that regard.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2012, 07:30:38 pm by Schlippy »
Logged
I do upload some Dominion videos on youtube now. :)

eHalcyon

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8689
  • Respect: +9187
    • View Profile
Re: Fan Expansion: Clockwork (25 Card expansion, Beta)
« Reply #6 on: June 12, 2012, 07:43:55 pm »
0

Minuteman -- fair enough.  It's $2 anyway, so that's fine. :P

Baldachin -- not sure what you mean that "it can not be bothered with a lot through discard attacks".  The duration part requires that you discard a card, so it's almost the same as if you just kept whatever action you had schemed despite the discard attack.  Basically, it looks like this is the same as scheme but not cantrip and with some minor sifting next turn.  Unless you mean whole-hand discard attacks?  That would only be Minuteman and Minion, and it's such a corner case that I don't think it matters much.  Still looks a lot like Scheme...

Monocle -- ah, right about Swindler, etc.  Not sold on Rabble, because whatever you leave gets discarded as well.  I guess it semi-neutralizes Rabble, heh. :P  It still sounds like a $2 card to me, a la other attack-defense reactions like Secret Chamber and Moat.

Rook -- I figured that was the reason, but it's not a good excuse. ;)

Troll -- Cool.

Vice Chancellor -- FV doesn't cycle your deck though!  I was more curious about your testing with it.

Mansion -- Fair enough.  Still, seems more like a $3 card than a $4 card.

Galvanize -- Chain it on the last cantrip?  What do you mean?

Bakery -- whoops, missed that it was on-buy.  That feels a little better then.  Encourages keeping track of your deck.  I'd like it more if the action was something other than a Lab clone though!
Logged

WanderingWinder

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5275
  • ...doesn't really matter to me
  • Respect: +4381
    • View Profile
    • WanderingWinder YouTube Page
Re: Fan Expansion: Clockwork (25 Card expansion, Beta)
« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2012, 08:06:48 pm »
0

Pure Copper - 'without any Actions left' is wonky, most certainly wrong, though I know what you mean by it.
Baldachin needs a wording fix
Monocle just seems so weak. Copper and filter is really weak for $3 - you never want it. And the reaction's not great, either.
Rook also seems a touch weak, but meh.
Hourglass is too strong. Sure it's not strictly better than silver sans the cost thing, but it's so rare that you'd have an extra action you wouldn't want to put back... I mean, it seems generally more useful than stash/royal seal, and a price point cheaper. Basically, there's a reason why Donald X. didn't print those silver-with-a-plus cards at 4, and it's a good reason.
Misfit compares pretty darn favorably to smithy for big money, and is not THAT much worse for engines? Eh, I don't know. But I'm worried about the power of misfit-BM.
Turncoat - um, I'm not sure how this works exactly, but I'd guess that most often, you draw this as your 2nd card in cleanup, choose the trash-and-discard option, have only one card in hand, then continue drawing up to your normal 5 cards? I know this is not your intention...
Accurst/Blasphemy has all kinds of issues, most of which I won't get into. But it's WAY too strong.
Copper Smelt, far from seeming weak to me, actually looks a bit strong. But likely not too too strong. I like it. Oh wait, you changed it to make the trashing variable. Yeah, it does look too strong.
Librarian - the duchy thing seems weird.
Bakery - I don't understand why this card doesn't cost $5.

Arya Stark

  • Navigator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 79
  • the things i do for dominion.....
  • Respect: +19
    • View Profile
Re: Fan Expansion: Clockwork (25 Card expansion, Beta)
« Reply #8 on: June 12, 2012, 08:41:01 pm »
0

Minuteman?! ummm no thanks
Logged

Schlippy

  • Conspirator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 203
  • Respect: +60
    • View Profile
Re: Fan Expansion: Clockwork (25 Card expansion, Beta)
« Reply #9 on: June 13, 2012, 10:42:47 am »
0

Pure Copper - 'without any Actions left' is wonky, most certainly wrong, though I know what you mean by it.
How would you phrase it?
Quote
Baldachin needs a wording fix
How, specifically?
Quote
Monocle just seems so weak. Copper and filter is really weak for $3 - you never want it. And the reaction's not great, either.
I might change it to $2 and make the discard only mandatory if you discard cards with the reaction.
Quote
Rook also seems a touch weak, but meh.
It is weak in certain Kingdoms but incredibly useful in others. It is somewhat similar to pawn in that regard.
Quote
Hourglass is too strong. Sure it's not strictly better than silver sans the cost thing, but it's so rare that you'd have an extra action you wouldn't want to put back... I mean, it seems generally more useful than stash/royal seal, and a price point cheaper. Basically, there's a reason why Donald X. didn't print those silver-with-a-plus cards at 4, and it's a good reason.
Imho it is too weak at $5 and too strong with $1 on it at a price of $2. It is too weak again with $1 on it at a price $3. It might receive some other form of nerf at some point, but it is not as strong as it looks, especially if you buy it more than once. It backfires a lot more often than you'd think, in particular in games where you think something like "wow, many terminals, I surely want to buy a lot of Hourglasses" at first sight.
I am not saying, that it is perfectly fine in it's current form. But it is a lot weaker than it looks.
Quote
Misfit compares pretty darn favorably to smithy for big money, and is not THAT much worse for engines? Eh, I don't know. But I'm worried about the power of misfit-BM.
I am testing it with a clause that forces you to discard 2 cards if you can not discard an action card atm. to check out how much it hurts that card in BM and engines.
Quote
Turncoat - um, I'm not sure how this works exactly, but I'd guess that most often, you draw this as your 2nd card in cleanup, choose the trash-and-discard option, have only one card in hand, then continue drawing up to your normal 5 cards? I know this is not your intention...
Nope, the idea is that you draw 5 cards and then discard or take the curse. But as eHalcyon pointed out, it is utterly broken in 4 player games, so it will change a lot in the near future.
Quote
Accurst/Blasphemy has all kinds of issues, most of which I won't get into. But it's WAY too strong.
I don't think it is too strong (and I have played a lot of games with it), but it sure is one of the strongest iterations of the card at the moment. I will probably invert the directions on Accurst, so the if clause happens before players gain Blasphemies (but after you may gain one), to give more incentive to actually put Blasphemies back.
What issues specifically? If you're talking about interactions with the trashing clause on Blasphemy I'd have to say that this is indeed intended. When the Curse pile is empty there are a whole lot of clever interactions you can do with Blasphemy and different trashers. Things like making Upgrades at least cantrips with no downside, remodeling Blasphemies multiple times per turn, automatically having it in your discard pile every time you play Excorcist, trashing it multiple times with Bishops per turn, etc.
The only thing I dislike about that is that a Swindler can give you 2 Curses per play if you happen to turn up a Blasphemy, but those situations are rare (and so are games that turn up a Swindler and Accurst).
Quote
Copper Smelt, far from seeming weak to me, actually looks a bit strong. But likely not too too strong. I like it. Oh wait, you changed it to make the trashing variable. Yeah, it does look too strong.
I tested it with 2 coppers in hand, 1 onto the discard pile, but that was incredibly weak. Currently I am testing two iterations; one giving $0 instead of 1$ and the other one limiting the number of Coppers you can trash per play to 3. The second one feels relatively weak in some games (and the same in others), because you can not really chain it properly. It might become a mixture of both. Giving $0 and limiting the number of Coppers you can trash per play to 4 or 5.
Quote
Librarian - the duchy thing seems weird.
It was based on discarding Libraries at first. That was weird. ;)
Right now it seems fine, and is certainly a lot stronger in alternative strategies that go for fast 3-piling.
Quote
Bakery - I don't understand why this card doesn't cost $5.
If I had it at $5 people were probably complaining that it was strictly better than a Lab. (I do know it is not, but in some games it is.)
It might receive a buff to make it less random though.


Minuteman?! ummm no thanks
Excuse me? ???
« Last Edit: June 13, 2012, 10:46:03 am by Schlippy »
Logged
I do upload some Dominion videos on youtube now. :)

WanderingWinder

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5275
  • ...doesn't really matter to me
  • Respect: +4381
    • View Profile
    • WanderingWinder YouTube Page
Re: Fan Expansion: Clockwork (25 Card expansion, Beta)
« Reply #10 on: June 13, 2012, 11:17:33 am »
0

I'm not sure how to fix most of the wording issues. I just know that they aren't right as they are.
My point on turncoat isn't about how you INTEND it to work. It's about how, by strict interpretation of the rules, it does work right now.
And the hourgalss thing - it's not really that it's brokenly strong. Stash or royal seal at 4 wouldn't be brokenly strong either. The point is, there's very little downside to it, and silver needs to be a viable option at 4 to make the game work right. I certainly am not going to buy a zillion terminals just because this card is out there. Just how many I normally would, maybe a hair's breath more, and I'll be very happy that this helps smooth out my luck occasionally, with really... no appreciable downside.

Thanar

  • Bishop
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 123
  • Respect: +138
    • View Profile
Re: Fan Expansion: Clockwork (25 Card expansion, Beta)
« Reply #11 on: June 14, 2012, 12:27:32 am »
0

Since I enjoy searching for these kinds of things, here are some image suggestions for the cards without images:

Rook = A swindler or cheat, especially at games

The Cardsharps by Michelangelo Merisi da Caravaggio (1595)
http://www.caravaggio.com/preview/database/enlarged.php?id=000004

Cheater with the Ace of Diamonds by Georges de La Tour (1635)
http://www.wga.hu/framex-e.html?file=html/l/la_tour/georges/1/06cheat.html&find=cheat

Rook - The chess piece

“Charles d'Angoulême et Louise de Savoie jouant aux échecs” from Échecs amoureux (16th cen.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Marguerite_de_Navarre.jpg

“Cybèle. Numa Pompilius et Égérie” from Sanctus Augustinus, De civitate Dei (traduction Raoul de Presles), France, Paris (15th cen.)
http://a10.idata.over-blog.com/0/04/43/94/Enluminures-religieuses/cybele-numa-pompilius-et-egerie.

York Walls - http://wikitravel.org/upload/shared/c/c7/York_Walls.jpg

Misfit = A badly adjusted person

Boy Bitten by a Crab by Michelangelo Merisi da Caravaggio (1592)
http://www.caravaggio.com/preview/database/enlarged.php?id=000006

A Marked Man by F. M. Howarth (1901)
http://digitalgallery.nypl.org/nypldigital/dgkeysearchdetail.cfm?trg=1&strucID=470118&imageID=1190400

Turncoat = One who traitorously switches allegiance

The tempter and the traitor--the treason of Arnold on the night of September 21, 1780
by John McNevin (1860)
http://digitalgallery.nypl.org/nypldigital/dgkeysearchdetail.cfm?trg=1&strucID=701655&imageID=808878

Finally, a couple of medieval-style image suggestions for Sawmill:

Two Undershot Watermills with Men Opening a Sluice by Jacob Isaackszon van Ruisdael (1650s)
http://www.wga.hu/framex-e.html?file=html/r/ruysdael/jacob/1/water_m1.html&find=mill

Photo of a Tide mill on the island of Brehat (Bretagne, France) by Flore Allemandou
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Moulin_maree_brehat.jpg

(Though it wouldn't make a good card image, I can't resist mentioning this sketch of a medieval sash-type sawmill by the French engineer Villard de Honnecourt (13th cen.): http://web.archive.org/web/20050721141522/http://www.newcastle.edu.au/discipline/fine-art/pubs/villard/album44.jpg - The sawmill is in the upper left corner)
« Last Edit: June 14, 2012, 03:00:57 am by Thanar »
Logged

Morgrim7

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1701
  • Torturer chains? How primitive.
  • Respect: +748
    • View Profile
Re: Fan Expansion: Clockwork (25 Card expansion, Beta)
« Reply #12 on: June 14, 2012, 09:53:44 am »
0

I find it odd that the Vice Chancellor is (in most cases) better than the Chancellor himself. :)
Exorcist is much too powerful in curse games. Combos well with Chancellor.

Logged
"Oh sweet merciful heavens.

I sit here, lost amongst the cloud, that which is the brain of the Morgrim Mod. Perhaps I will learn the inner workings of that storied mind. Perhaps I will simply go mad.

Mad, I tell you.

Maaaaaaaaaaaaad." -Voltgloss
Dominion Notation: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=7265.msg206246#msg206246

Schlippy

  • Conspirator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 203
  • Respect: +60
    • View Profile
Re: Fan Expansion: Clockwork (25 Card expansion, Beta)
« Reply #13 on: June 14, 2012, 01:29:10 pm »
0

@Thanar:
Thanks for the suggestions. Do you happen to have an idea for Minuteman too? The image right now is actually just a stamp. I'd like to have something neat in color, some guy with a hat and a musket. (Can also be multiple guys, I don't mind renaming the card into Minutemen. ;))


@Morgrim7:
Chancellor: Yeah, but so are a lot of $3 cards. :>
Exorcist: It's not really that. But Exorcist certainly changes heavy curse games a lot if it is in the Kingdom. It is just less viable to buy that second or third Witch, but cursing is still a big deal. There are still cursing games where you'd take Chapel over Exorcist anytime if both are in the Kingdom.
Logged
I do upload some Dominion videos on youtube now. :)

Thanar

  • Bishop
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 123
  • Respect: +138
    • View Profile
Re: Fan Expansion: Clockwork (25 Card expansion, Beta)
« Reply #14 on: June 14, 2012, 03:18:35 pm »
0


This is the best I could come up with that was in the public domain:

Minutemen – Members of a highly mobile, rapidly deployed American colonial militia in the American Revolutionary War.

The First Fight for Independence, Lexington Common, April 19, 1775 by William Barnes Wollen (1910). Minutemen facing British soldiers in the first battle in the War of Independence.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_ptAqeqIdoX0/S8_amYJbQFI/AAAAAAAAAEM/sWksAf8jmuo/s1600/Battles+of+Lexington+and+Concord+(19+April+1775).jpg
Logged

Schlippy

  • Conspirator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 203
  • Respect: +60
    • View Profile
Re: Fan Expansion: Clockwork (25 Card expansion, Beta)
« Reply #15 on: June 15, 2012, 07:24:56 am »
0

That will do, I can cut the dieing ones.
Thanks, much appreciated.
Logged
I do upload some Dominion videos on youtube now. :)

Thanar

  • Bishop
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 123
  • Respect: +138
    • View Profile
Re: Fan Expansion: Clockwork (25 Card expansion, Beta)
« Reply #16 on: June 25, 2012, 02:49:51 am »
0

Any chance of posting updated cards for the ones currently without images in the next few days? I'd love to print out a set to test during my vacation with full images.
Logged

Schlippy

  • Conspirator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 203
  • Respect: +60
    • View Profile
Re: Fan Expansion: Clockwork (25 Card expansion, Beta)
« Reply #17 on: June 25, 2012, 06:59:16 am »
0

Do they have to be without images? ^^
Logged
I do upload some Dominion videos on youtube now. :)

Schlippy

  • Conspirator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 203
  • Respect: +60
    • View Profile
Re: Fan Expansion: Clockwork (25 Card expansion, Beta)
« Reply #18 on: August 18, 2012, 01:29:56 pm »
0

I'd like to bump this topic, as I have updated the images and added a FAQ and a small rules section regarding Curses, Blasphemy and Curse cards.
There are some heavy changes (Turncoat and Bakery) some quite heavy changes and some minor changes to many of those cards.

Thx again for reading, voting up, critique and what not. Hope you have as much fun exploring this set as I had making, testing and fine tuning it. :]
Logged
I do upload some Dominion videos on youtube now. :)

razorborne

  • Bishop
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 100
  • Respect: +8
    • View Profile
Re: Fan Expansion: Clockwork (25 Card expansion, Beta) (Updated 08.18.12)
« Reply #19 on: August 18, 2012, 05:54:08 pm »
0

a lot of these seem really complicated. there's not necessarily an issue with having a lot of words, but when the function isn't clear it gets weird. most of these took a couple reads to really get down.

also a question on Troll. let's say I have a hand of Gold, Silver, Copper, Estate, Estate. the kingdom contains Bank and Venture. this is a two-player game. you play Troll. I have no actions, so I reveal my hand of no actions. what do you gain, assuming you always go with the most expensive available option? there's a couple possible answers:

a) you gain a Bank. this is supported under the idea that the most expensive revealed card was my Gold. the card doesn't state that it's based on the most expensive action card.
b) you gain a Venture. this is if we assume that the revealed hand doesn't count, and thus no actions were revealed.
c) you gain a Bank and a Venture. this is how I would treat a literal reading of the card. it says two things: gain a treasure costing no more than $1 more than the highest revealed card (Gold) which gains me the bank, and if no one reveals an action, gain one costing up to 5, which gains me the Venture.

which of these did you intend? and if it's not C (which I doubt it is) you should probably fix the wording, because that's what it implies to me at least.
Logged

Schlippy

  • Conspirator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 203
  • Respect: +60
    • View Profile
Re: Fan Expansion: Clockwork (25 Card expansion, Beta) (Updated 08.18.12)
« Reply #20 on: August 18, 2012, 06:04:06 pm »
0

a lot of these seem really complicated. there's not necessarily an issue with having a lot of words, but when the function isn't clear it gets weird. most of these took a couple reads to really get down.
That's why there is a FAQ :).
There is only so much you can do with Dominion cards, and many obvious and easy things have been done. The same happens with the official expansions, the cards get more and more complicated.

Quote
also a question on Troll. let's say I have a hand of Gold, Silver, Copper, Estate, Estate. the kingdom contains Bank and Venture. this is a two-player game. you play Troll. I have no actions, so I reveal my hand of no actions. what do you gain, assuming you always go with the most expensive available option? there's a couple possible answers:

a) you gain a Bank. this is supported under the idea that the most expensive revealed card was my Gold. the card doesn't state that it's based on the most expensive action card.
b) you gain a Venture. this is if we assume that the revealed hand doesn't count, and thus no actions were revealed.
c) you gain a Bank and a Venture. this is how I would treat a literal reading of the card. it says two things: gain a treasure costing no more than $1 more than the highest revealed card (Gold) which gains me the bank, and if no one reveals an action, gain one costing up to 5, which gains me the Venture.

which of these did you intend? and if it's not C (which I doubt it is) you should probably fix the wording, because that's what it implies to me at least.
Good find. It should say "the most expensive revealed Action card". I will change that.
It is b) of course, the revealed hand does not count. It is (more or less) answered in the FAQ though. ;)
Logged
I do upload some Dominion videos on youtube now. :)

razorborne

  • Bishop
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 100
  • Respect: +8
    • View Profile
Re: Fan Expansion: Clockwork (25 Card expansion, Beta) (Updated 08.18.12)
« Reply #21 on: August 18, 2012, 07:28:28 pm »
0

That's why there is a FAQ :).
There is only so much you can do with Dominion cards, and many obvious and easy things have been done. The same happens with the official expansions, the cards get more and more complicated.
my general feeling is that you should not need an FAQ to play a game. there may be some complex interactions you need to check on, like the throne room-goons interaction which is not inherently obvious, but a good rule is that if I can't figure out how your card works in BM, with no other actions, then it's too weird. also, it's not necessarily about the interactions or mechanics themselves. take Exorcist. I know exactly what it does, but it's really confusing why it does that. it takes some serious thought to understand a) why I want it, and b) what it's for. the closest I can think of to this problem from an official card is Bureaucrat, but even then there's some cohesion and the overall use is fairly apparent.

I also disagree that most of the obvious things have been done. for instance, there is currently no official kingdom card that simultaneously gives +2 or more cards and +$ of any kind. the closest is Vault but that doesn't give you the +$ unless you give up the +cards. (well, the closest is Trusty Steed, but that's why I said "kingdom" card.) and that's a combination of vanilla abilities. there's still plenty of simple space to explore.
Logged

Schlippy

  • Conspirator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 203
  • Respect: +60
    • View Profile
Re: Fan Expansion: Clockwork (25 Card expansion, Beta) (Updated 08.18.12)
« Reply #22 on: August 18, 2012, 10:05:28 pm »
0

That's why there is a FAQ :).
There is only so much you can do with Dominion cards, and many obvious and easy things have been done. The same happens with the official expansions, the cards get more and more complicated.
my general feeling is that you should not need an FAQ to play a game. there may be some complex interactions you need to check on, like the throne room-goons interaction which is not inherently obvious, but a good rule is that if I can't figure out how your card works in BM, with no other actions, then it's too weird.
I don't think the cards need a FAQ to play them, I just put it up to answer questions that may arise during gameplay. Except maybe for Bakery, Bakery simply needs a FAQ because the text "you can not name Cards that have no supply pile" does not fit nicely on the card. Maybe it does with a wording change, but I have a hard time minimizing the words used without altering the cards, as I am not a native speaker.

Quote
also, it's not necessarily about the interactions or mechanics themselves. take Exorcist. I know exactly what it does, but it's really confusing why it does that. it takes some serious thought to understand a) why I want it, and b) what it's for. the closest I can think of to this problem from an official card is Bureaucrat, but even then there's some cohesion and the overall use is fairly apparent.
Isn't that the point of Dominion? Figuring stuff and good interactions out? There are easy ones, like "hey, if I buy a lot of Villages and Smithies I might be able to draw my whole deck relatively consistently" and harder ones, like "hey, if have 2-4 Hunting parties, a Gold, a Copper, a Silver and a Monument in my deck and trash all the other cards I can by a Province and get a VP chip nearly every turn" or "hey, if I my deck has Kingscourt, Scheme, Exorcist and four Blasphemies and I manage to draw the former three while the latter four are in my discard, I can manage to get at least 4 VP chips per turn consistently until I hit a reshuffle, on top of buying something with my the other 5 cards I draw or have in my hand" or "well the Curse and Copper from Mountebank do not really bother me, as they go to my discard and are 2 VP chips when I have a few Exorcists in my deck" or just something simple like "I might just buy two Exorcists for trashing two of my starting Coppers/Estates from my discard each turn I have one my hand." followed by a sudden "Wait a second! If I just trash 4 coppers this turn and buy an Exorcist from my two Silver I get 6 VP and can trash the curse and two Coppers for 3 VP with my next Exorcist, as the Curse I gained is in my discard". There are also very hard ones, but I don't want to be the guy who spoils all the fun. And I really don't think that the interactions that Dark ages brings or stuff like Black Market/Tactician, Black Market/Quarry/Workshop or Horse Traders/Duke (just to name a few) are that much easier to figure out.
It is not even like this set consists only of complicated cards. Minutemen, Rook, Pure Copper, Alpine Village, Vice Chancellor, Mansion, Misfit, Copper Smelt and Hourglass are about as complicated as Intrigue cards. Even Bakery is just a Lab that you can topdeck on buy if Victory cards are being bought. It is quite obvious though, that this set was not designed at all with first time players in mind, but so wasn't Alchemy, Hinterlands, Cornucopia or Dark Ages.

Quote
I also disagree that most of the obvious things have been done. for instance, there is currently no official kingdom card that simultaneously gives +2 or more cards and +$ of any kind. the closest is Vault but that doesn't give you the +$ unless you give up the +cards. (well, the closest is Trusty Steed, but that's why I said "kingdom" card.) and that's a combination of vanilla abilities. there's still plenty of simple space to explore.
+2 or more cards and +2 hasn't been done because it is unbelievably strong. Only +$1 on it makes it kind of weak, as you could have the same thing early by drawing a copper with your Smithy. It is also very similar to Smithy, offering less cycling for only a very little increase of consistency. Vanilla ideas like in your example have been explored a lot, because most of them are obvious to everyone who designs a set. But as soon as you playtest such things you find that they are either dull, redundant, overpowered or any combination of these. Sure, there are some things that have not been explored. When I had the idea for Alpine Village I thought it was an obvious one too, and was sure there are at least 4-5 fan cards that are like this, but that wasn't the case. Even Rook was very obvious to me. But the only thing I found about such a card in this forum was a post from DXVs history of Intrigue cards, that says Pawn was once like Rook is, and he thought it was boring and changed it. I think it is boring too, but to me so is Pawn. After playtesting it for a few games I found out that it a solid support card in nearly every Kingdom, just like Pawn is. But it is completely different.
There is a reason no official expansion has a lot of cards that are as simple and obvious as the base cards. It is because those cards are boring. Don't get me wrong, with a few exception (like Thief and Spy) they are all solid cards, as solid as they can get, but the majority of them does not define strategies anymore, because they are easy, have little interaction and what not. There are some exceptions, like Witch, Chapel, Gardens, Throne room. But you do not go for a Militia based strategy if you could do Goons instead or for a Smithy engine when you see a Torturer. There are reasons that Goons is more complicated than '+$2, +1 Card, each other player discards down to three' and that Torturer is not '+$1, +3 Cards, each other player discards down to three'. Those are very obvious ideas for more expensive versions of Militia or Smithy, but they haven't been done, because they are somewhat dull and boring. Even Intrigue, the second base game, has a very small amount of cards that are as simple as the base cards. From all the expansions together, there are only a handful of cards that are as easy and obvious in their function as the base cards. And a good bunch of them does not even matter all that much.
Sure all of these cards have their point and place in some situations, but I doubt anyone would be hurt there was no Workers Village, and I doubt anyone would care when Workers Village was +1 Card, +2 Actions, you may trash a card from your hand. It is good that these cards are there, some of them are solid cards and so there are a few of them in this set. But they are not there because the players need them, they are there because a set needs them so you can play the set alone without having to worry about "oh no, there is card with +2 Actions in this set, I can only play cantrips and one terminal in every game" or "well that reaction card is useless considering the fact that this that has no classic attack cards". As most people random out their Kingdoms, you need some more of these when you introduce more cards, but you certainly do not need the 7th variant of a "+1 Card, +2 Action, do something that another base card can do except a card or Action" Village.

Tl;dr-version: You need some simple cards, but you do not need them because to much complicated cards make your set to complicated for people to play and figure out good strategies, you need them to supplement your complicated cards and even out random Kingdoms. But most of the obvious ones have been done, so they have to get more complicated at one point or another.

I'm sorry for probable grammar or spelling mistakes, it is early in the morning here. ;)
« Last Edit: August 18, 2012, 10:10:32 pm by Schlippy »
Logged
I do upload some Dominion videos on youtube now. :)

razorborne

  • Bishop
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 100
  • Respect: +8
    • View Profile
Re: Fan Expansion: Clockwork (25 Card expansion, Beta) (Updated 08.18.12)
« Reply #23 on: August 18, 2012, 11:04:29 pm »
+1

Isn't that the point of Dominion? Figuring stuff and good interactions out? There are easy ones, like "hey, if I buy a lot of Villages and Smithies I might be able to draw my whole deck relatively consistently" and harder ones, like "hey, if have 2-4 Hunting parties, a Gold, a Copper, a Silver and a Monument in my deck and trash all the other cards I can by a Province and get a VP chip nearly every turn" or "hey, if I my deck has Kingscourt, Scheme, Exorcist and four Blasphemies and I manage to draw the former three while the latter four are in my discard, I can manage to get at least 4 VP chips per turn consistently until I hit a reshuffle, on top of buying something with my the other 5 cards I draw or have in my hand" or "well the Curse and Copper from Mountebank do not really bother me, as they go to my discard and are 2 VP chips when I have a few Exorcists in my deck" or just something simple like "I might just buy two Exorcists for trashing two of my starting Coppers/Estates from my discard each turn I have one my hand." followed by a sudden "Wait a second! If I just trash 4 coppers this turn and buy an Exorcist from my two Silver I get 6 VP and can trash the curse and two Coppers for 3 VP with my next Exorcist, as the Curse I gained is in my discard". There are also very hard ones, but I don't want to be the guy who spoils all the fun. And I really don't think that the interactions that Dark ages brings or stuff like Black Market/Tactician, Black Market/Quarry/Workshop or Horse Traders/Duke (just to name a few) are that much easier to figure out.
It is not even like this set consists only of complicated cards. Minutemen, Rook, Pure Copper, Alpine Village, Vice Chancellor, Mansion, Misfit, Copper Smelt and Hourglass are about as complicated as Intrigue cards. Even Bakery is just a Lab that you can topdeck on buy if Victory cards are being bought. It is quite obvious though, that this set was not designed at all with first time players in mind, but so wasn't Alchemy, Hinterlands, Cornucopia or Dark Ages.
dominion is about interactions and card uses out. but it's important to give a purpose. name one card you see and don't immediately think of why you might buy it. even if it's a bad card, like saboteur, or woodcutter, you do immediately think of what it's used for. the best example I can think of of a card whose purpose isn't immediately clear is chapel, and that's because once you do try it you realize it's amazing. in that case, the lack of clear communication is enabling one of the most important discoveries in the game. is Exorcist doing that? also, beyond that' there's the issue of unconnected abilities. why does Monocle do what it does? why does Librarian discard a Duchy? overall, I just feel like a lot of the cards are really inelegant. don't get me wrong: there are some great ideas here. Rook, Alpine Village, and Copper Smelt are among my favorites. it's just there's a lot of things that seem rushed, designwise.

and being interesting doesn't mean being complex. think of the strategic realms opened up by something as simple as Scheme, which does nothing more than cantrip and put a card on your deck. or Throne Room, which, while it has a fair amount of words, is an incredibly simple idea.

Tl;dr-version: You need some simple cards, but you do not need them because to much complicated cards make your set to complicated for people to play and figure out good strategies, you need them to supplement your complicated cards and even out random Kingdoms. But most of the obvious ones have been done, so they have to get more complicated at one point or another.
again, simplicity isn't inherently boring. you don't need just vanilla effects to be simple. as you said, Alpine Village is a great example of a simple design. so is Copper Smelt. so is Polycephaly. but things like Blasphemy just feel complex for complexity's sake. the biggest mistake a designer can make is to do things they don't need to do, and some of these cards just scream unnecessary complexity to me.
Logged

Thanar

  • Bishop
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 123
  • Respect: +138
    • View Profile
Re: Fan Expansion: Clockwork (25 Card expansion, Beta) (Updated 08.18.12)
« Reply #24 on: August 20, 2012, 12:49:48 pm »
0

Thanks for updating this set! I will be printing all the cards out this week and will use them next time I play. It will certainly "tide me over" until I can pick up Dark Ages.
Logged
Pages: [1] 2  All
 

Page created in 0.494 seconds with 20 queries.