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Author Topic: Weekly Design Contest #109: Raise the dead.  (Read 1905 times)

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Xen3k

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #109: Raise the dead.
« Reply #100 on: March 31, 2021, 07:30:17 am »
+1

Ok, gonna close submissions. I will try to get results out within a day or so, but it being the middle of the week and me missing my own deadline may delay things. Thank you all for your patience.
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Shael

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #109: Raise the dead.
« Reply #101 on: March 31, 2021, 10:36:24 am »
0

This is my participation:

Btw, how balance or elegance are considered durring the judging ?
I don't think Debt cost is a good idea on this. This will be a required opening buy 95% of the time.

I think Debt does seem like a good idea, as it allows it to be bought earlier than it otherwise would (since this is helpful earlier in the game, probably more than later).  $8 seems too high.  4 debt plus $4 cost is effectively no different than 8 debt.  What about $6?  Or $6 plus 2 debt?  Then it's not an immediate buy, but still is reachable early enough.

A completely different take on it - you could "... may trash a card from your hand costing at least $2 to..."
This seems more in line with the official cards, encouraging actually useful cards to go into the trash for future use.  It would still allow trashing your 3 estates, but it couldn't trash copper or curse for benefit anymore.  At this point, full debt cost would probably be okay (and/or possibly a cheaper cost).
Originaly I've made it at just 8 coins and that's how I put it on discord. But they point out that, with this cost, the first player who buy it will probably win the game. So they advice me to put it at the same cost as Donate because it's exactly for these reason that card like chappel or Donate have a cost that allow them to be bought in your first shuffle.
Your idea of a trash-fer benefit is a good idea and this is how I'll change the card if the constest wasn't finished (exept if we could change it before the result)

mxdata

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #109: Raise the dead.
« Reply #102 on: March 31, 2021, 02:36:35 pm »
0

This is my participation:

Btw, how balance or elegance are considered durring the judging ?
I don't think Debt cost is a good idea on this. This will be a required opening buy 95% of the time.

I think Debt does seem like a good idea, as it allows it to be bought earlier than it otherwise would (since this is helpful earlier in the game, probably more than later).  $8 seems too high.  4 debt plus $4 cost is effectively no different than 8 debt.  What about $6?  Or $6 plus 2 debt?  Then it's not an immediate buy, but still is reachable early enough.

A completely different take on it - you could "... may trash a card from your hand costing at least $2 to..."
This seems more in line with the official cards, encouraging actually useful cards to go into the trash for future use.  It would still allow trashing your 3 estates, but it couldn't trash copper or curse for benefit anymore.  At this point, full debt cost would probably be okay (and/or possibly a cheaper cost).
Originaly I've made it at just 8 coins and that's how I put it on discord. But they point out that, with this cost, the first player who buy it will probably win the game. So they advice me to put it at the same cost as Donate because it's exactly for these reason that card like chappel or Donate have a cost that allow them to be bought in your first shuffle.
Your idea of a trash-fer benefit is a good idea and this is how I'll change the card if the constest wasn't finished (exept if we could change it before the result)

I would also suggest adding "turning it face-down for the turn" as on Necromancer.  Otherwise, if you have both this and Necromancer in the kingdom, you could play the same card with both
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faust

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #109: Raise the dead.
« Reply #103 on: April 01, 2021, 01:04:06 am »
+1

I would also suggest adding "turning it face-down for the turn" as on Necromancer.  Otherwise, if you have both this and Necromancer in the kingdom, you could play the same card with both
And that's an issue why?
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mxdata

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #109: Raise the dead.
« Reply #104 on: April 01, 2021, 01:35:44 am »
0

I would also suggest adding "turning it face-down for the turn" as on Necromancer.  Otherwise, if you have both this and Necromancer in the kingdom, you could play the same card with both
And that's an issue why?

Well, I suppose you're right, it's not that big a deal
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Xen3k

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #109: Raise the dead.
« Reply #105 on: April 02, 2021, 06:23:34 pm »
+5

Weekly Design Contest #109: Raise the dead
Results


Zombie Horde by emtzalex

Quote
Zombie Horde - $3
Action - Zombie
Trash an Action card from the Supply.

A really simple and clean design. This has a really cool interaction with cards that have an effect when trashed. This will certainly make Necromancer more centralizing as trashing a Goons or Expand from the supply would make Necromancer one of the strongest $4 cost card in Dominion. The nature of Zombies and how Necromancer works, however, makes this slightly less nightmarish. Everyone gets access to the trash and each action in the trash can only be played once with Necromancer. I still think allowing any action to be trashed may be a bit too much. It would quickly become a game that ignores the other 3 Zombies, unless trashing and non-terminal cards are absent from the Kingdom. I like the design, it is very elegant, but I would only really want to use this in a predetermined Kingdom to limit its power.


Zombie Captain by mathdude

Quote
Zombie Captain - $5
Action - Duration
Set aside a face-up, non-duration, Action card from the trash under this and play it, leaving it there.  At the start of your next turn, return it to the trash and play it, leaving it there
-
Setup: Put the Zombies into the trash

Zombie Captain is a great duration variant of Necromancer. A very innovative way to make it work and it is very clear on how it works so not to be confusing. The cost seems good at $5 as it can monopolize an action if you have multiple Zombie Captains. I think this would benefit greatly from additional Zombies. After a few non-Zombie actions have made their way into the trash, this looks like it would get a lot more fun. Not much more to say, I would not mind playing with this.


Throne of the Dead by X-tra

Quote
Throne of the Dead - $3
Action - Zombie
Play a Treasure from the trash twice, leaving it there.

This is a very clean and simple Zombie that rewards trashing more than just actions. This relies on either Zombie Mason or other trashing cards to get the treasure in the trash, but it makes using Zombie Mason less of a gamble even after getting some Silver or other treasures in your deck. I imagine this would be crazy good with Crown, but I do not think that is a problem. A really nice continuation of the trash matters theme of Necromancer.


Zombie Apocalypse by mxdata


Quote
Zombie Apocalypse - $3
Action - Zombie - Attack
Each other player without Bitten or Infected takes Bitten.
Quote
Bitten
State
At the start of your turn, you may trash a card costing $3 or more from your hand to return this. If you do not, flip this over to Infected.
Quote
Infected
State
The next time you buy a card, return this for 1 Debt per $3 the card costs (round down).

This is a very simple Zombie with most of the heavy lifting being done with the State. I like that the Zombie itself gives no benefit and using the State makes the attack scale very nicely in games with more than 3 players. Bitten/Infected  is a pretty brutal State later in the game. I definitely think the changes you made were warranted. I like that players can plan out whether they are going trash a card, eat the Debt penalty, or spend a buy getting junk (unless there is a decent $2 cost card). A very innovative way to use Debt that is not heavy-handed.


Zombie Summoner by Mahowrath

Quote
Zombie Summoner - $3
Action - Zombie
+$1
Turn your Journey token over (it starts face up). Then if it's face up, gain an Imp.

I am a bit of a sucker for Imp and having a new way to get one is always welcome. The use of the Journey Token to delay the gain and warrant the ability to get such a powerful card is smart. I think it also benefits from not being able to play Zombie Summoner more than once a turn with Necromancer. Very nice design.


Zombie Goat by majiponi
Quote
Zombie Goat - $3
Action - Zombie
After drawing your next hand, trash a card from your hand.

This is a clean design and a simple idea. Captures the feel of Goat with a nice Zombie twist of uncertainty. It would be a great addition to the current zombies, being weaker than Mason and Apprentice, but is safer and gives more control over what you are trashing. I do not think this would greatly alter the power of Necromancer, but would just give more options.


Voodoo Ritual by faust

Quote
Voodoo Ritual - $4
Event
Once per turn: If the previous turn wasn't yours, take another turn after this one, and after this turn and the next, put your deck and hand into your discard pile, then swap your discard pile with the trash and draw 5 cards.
-
Setup: Put the 3 Zombies into the trash.

This card is weird. For a moment there I didn't think it really did anything, but I did get what happened eventually. I see the major issues with it are that it benefits from having ways to trash in the Kingdom, but trashing will usually mean a trash filled with coppers and estates. Additionally, if you do spend the buy and $4 to get a turn and buy things for the trash, everyone benefits from your efforts. I really like the innovative use of both the trash in a general sense and using the Zombies. Though, I do think a winning action is to use this event before the first shuffle to use Zombie Apprentice to trash Zombie Mason into your deck. I would have to play with it to be sure, but my first impression is that your bonus turn will likely not usually be very helpful. It is a very cool idea though and worth playtesting to at least see what strange situations it creates.


Zombie Merchant by pubby

Quote
Zombie Merchant - $3
Action - Zombie
+1 Action
Flip every card in the trash besides Zombie Merchant face-up. +$1 per card flipped.

This is a real nifty design. It pushes gaining multiple Necromancers, or ways to play Necromancer multiple times in a turn like Throne Room or similar Command cards. It allows you to play really powerful cards in the trash multiple times by flipping them face up again and getting paid as you do it. A nice compliment to the other Zombies, but I can see this making Necromancer slightly more centralizing, depending how the rest of the Kingdom looks.


Pet Sematary by gambit05

Quote
Pet Sematary - $3
Action – Zombie
+$1
You may play an Action card from your hand. If it has a copy in the trash, +1 Card and +1 Action.

Allows Necromancer to act like a Peddler/Village. This originally looked fairly awkward as if I have a nice action in hand, why not just play that action and use the Necromancer on the copy in the trash? What it does though is allows terminal cards in hand to not be terminal. Pet Semetery is a nice Village option that is otherwise missing from the original line-up of Zombies. Very nice design.


Zombie Witch by Lackar

Quote
Zombie Witch - $4
Action - Zombie
+1 action
Each other player reveals their hand and exiles a curse from their hand, If they can't then they gain a curse.

Zombie Witch is a curser similar to Old Witch or Young Witch. It should have the Attack type added to it. The addition of this makes Necromancer a fairly weak Curser, especially as you can only ever get one attack off on a given turn. However, having that ability as an option allows Necromancer to conttribute to a more agressive attack focused Kingdom or put extra actions to use. I like that the Curses stick around in Exile even when blocking the attack as it makes such an early attack less oppressive but still impact the game . It was also a good choice not to provide too much of a vanilla bonus as anything more than +1 Card would make this an easy first pick when choosing a Zombie to play with Necromancer.


Zombie Knight by Timinou

Quote
Zombie Knight - $3
Action - Attack - Zombie
Each other player reveals the top 2 cards of their deck, trashes one of them costing from $3 to $6, and discards the rest.  If a card is trashed by this, trash a Necromancer or Zombie you have in play.

I like the flavor of this card and how its mechanics match expectations for a Zombie Knight. I would have appreciated if it had the Knight card type as well, but that would have had no real impact on how it plays and would have likely been confusing when trying to play with the other Knights. I definitely think it is a smart move to have it self trash or trash a Necromancer in play as the power level of this definitely makes Necromancer stronger. Very nice design. That it only trashes Necromancers when played from the Trash is completely fine as going beyond that was outside the scope of the challenge.


Wilt by spineflu

Quote
Wilt - $3
Action - Zombie
Trash the top card of each Supply pile.
If this isn't in the trash, trash this.
If it's your Action phase, advance to your Buy phase.

Well, this makes Necromancer go from zero to a hundred in a hurry. I think this is interesting as every player that has bought a Necromancer will benefit from someone using this. I think this will make Necromancer a multiplicative force on any game warping actions that appear in the Kingdom. Expand and strong attack cards being available early on can be very oppressive. Additionally, this has really bonkers interactions with Tomb and any Kingdom cards that have a when trashed effect. I do like how this has a built in draw-back and that it makes Necromancer into more of a quasi Band of Misfits. I would need to playtest this quite a bit to determine where it would break and how easily it would. In a game with a non-random Kingdom I can see this being a fun addition that would make Necromancer into a centerpiece card for the Kingdom. A very cool design regardless.


Zombie Welcoming Committee by Chappy7

Quote
Zombie Welcoming - $3
Action - Zombie
+2 Actions
For the rest of this turn, when you trash a card, +$1

A Village that makes all trashing more beneficial. This is a great addition as the original Zombies are missing a Village option. This definitely benefits from more trash for benefit cards in the Kingdom and enhances the trashing theme of Zombie Apprentice and Mason.


Zombie Village by silverspawn

Quote
Zombie Village - $3
+1 Card
+2 Actions
Gain an Action card from the trash. If you did, each other player draws a card.
-
Setup: put the three Zombies into the trash.

A very simple and elegant non-Zombie card. I like the drawback of everyone else drawing a card if you gain a card off of it. It likely still has a problem where one person gets the Zombie Apprentice or Zombie Mason and someone gets stuck with the Spy. However, a village for $3 is almost always welcome and gaining actions of opportunity can be nice even if you only got the Zombie Spy. I see the value of this changing depending on what trashing is available in the Kingdom and being very unappealing if Ruins or Rats are in the game. Very balanced and uses the Zombies in an interesting way.


Zombie Mechanic by grep

Quote
Zombie Mechanic - $3
Action - Zombie
Trash a card costing up to $4 from the Supply. Gain a copy of it.

A Workshop that sets up the trash with the card you gain which is useful if you gain an action card. This inherently has a cool interaction with Necromancer and winning the split if there is a race for Necromancers as it drains the pile. I don't see a race happening too often even if this card is added to the existing Zombies as it is not too powerful. Greatly benefits from certain cards with effects when trashed are in the Kingdom such as Silk Merchant and Squire. That you can get two Fortresses from this in one go may be a bit busted, but that is more the fault of Fortress than this card.


Zombie Wolf by Wolflover

Quote
Zombie Wolf - $4
Action - Zombie
+1 Card
+1 Action
Reveal bottom card of your deck, if the cost is $4 put it in your hand, otherwise leave on bottom.

This is a weird Zombie. It is a quasi Pearl Diver that only cares about cards that cost $4. It is potentially a Lab, which is better than Pearl Diver, but it does not change what is on the bottom of your deck if that card does not cost $4. This makes Zombie Wolf a cantrip most of the time, unless you manage to fill your deck with $4 cost cards. I think this could benefit from some changes. You could make it effect cards of a range of costs, allow you to trash or discard the bottom card, or something. I think its effect as it is right now is pretty limited, but it has potential.


Zombie Infiltrator by LibraryAdventurer
Quote
Zombie Infiltrator - $5
Action - Attack
At the start of your next turn, +$3.
Until then, the first time each other player plays an Action card costing at least $3, they play a Zombie from the trash, leaving it there, instead of following the instructions of the Action they played.
-
Setup: Put 3 zombies in the trash.

This needs to have the Duration type added, but I understand what is intended. This is a really Enchantress variant. Less oppressive than Enchantress, as oyu can at least play Zombie Spy, if it is still in the trash. If players get all Zombies out of the trash this becomes much more oppressive than Enchantress. It would be rare that it would happen, but the possability is there. Making a new Zombie that cannot leave the trash and does something very simple like +1 Action may be a solution. Regardless, this is a very cool use of Zombies.


Undead Throne & Zombie Workshop by fika monster

Quote
Undead Throne - $4
Action - Command
Gain a non-Command Action or Treasure card from the trash. If you did, play the gained card twice. If you didn't, trash an Action card from the supply.
-
Setup: Put the 4 zombies in the trash.
Quote
Zombie Workshop - $3
Action - Zombie
Gain an Action and a Treasure each costing up to $4.

This is the only entry that included both a Zombie and non-Zombie card. Undead Throne is a crazy mix of Lurker and Throne Room. The Throneing only happens when you gain an Action from the trash which limits its power and only being able to trash actions from the supply when you cannot gain from the trash is a nifty way to slow down the gaining of expensive actions. This has an interesting interaction between players that both buy Undead Throne, very similar to Lurker. Zombie Workshop is a very strong Workshop variant that gains both an action and treasure. As all the Zombies are very appealing when Throne Roomed, gauging one as better to gain first is difficult to determine, though Zombie Apprentice is likely the hardest to benefit from Throneing. Zombie Workshop may be stronger then the rest after it gets into your deck early game, but later on it is likely just junking your deck, depending on the Kingdom. Over all this is a great alternative to Necromancer and an interesting Zombie to boot.


Zombie Forager by mandioca15
Quote
Zombie Forager - $3
Action - Zombie
+1 Buy
Trash a card from your hand, then +$1 per two differently named cards in the trash (round down).

This is a really nice coin payload Zombie similar to Trade Routes. I like that it continues the trashing theme of Zombies. I can see this getting kinda crazy in a game with Ruins and Shelters. Even without those, with the 4 Zombies, Estate, and Copper, it becomes a terminal Gold.  This can easily become a +$4 while trashing junk, and though it can only be used once by Necromancer, it definitely looks stronger than the other Zombies. As long as there are no ways to gain this from the trash, it still effects all players equally and really just makes Necromancer more centralizing. I think it breaks if used with Ruins or Shelters, but otherwise just really bumps up the power of Necromancer and makes using Zombie Forager more appealing then the other zombies most of the time. A nerf of some kind would probably change that evaluation for me, maybe something like restricting the card types evaluated for the +coin or limiting what can be trashed? It has potential.


Day of the Dead by NoMoreFun
Quote
Day of the Dead - $4
Event
Once per turn: If the previous turn wasn't yours, take an extra turn after this one. In that turn, cards are played face up from the trash instead of from your hand. Leave non-Duration cards there, and turn them face down for the turn. (Setup: Put the Zombies into the trash)

This is an interesting seize the day variant. I think the lack of cap on what you can play from the trash will get out of hand quickly if there is even decent trashing available. Gaining durations you play from the trash is an interesting quirk, and trashing an action from your hand to Zombie Apprentice then playing that action you trashed seems like a really fun interaction. I really like how simple and intuitive the design for this is, but the lack of limits on how many cards you can play from the trash makes this an auto buy later in the game if a decent number of treasure have been trashed. I would not mind playing with it to see how crazy it got, but I am not sure if it would end up being fun.


Necromancy by Shael

Quote
Necromancy - 8Debt
Project
At the start of your turn, you may trash a card from your hand to play a non-Duration card from the trash, leaving it there.
-
Setup: Put the 3 Zombies into the trash.

Being able to trash a card from your hand at the start of your turn is nice in itself, getting to play an action from the trash is even better. I really like how simple this design is. The price as Debt makes this pretty easy to grab at the start of the game, and may be a no-brainer buy depending on the Kingdom. However, I don't see it as being unbalanced as everyone has the opportunity to buy it first thing and you do have to sacrifice at least 2 turns paying off the debt. A really good design.


Runners-Up
In no particular order.
Zombie Merchant by pubby
Zombie Mechanic by grep
Undead Throne & Zombie Workshop by fika monster

Winner
Zombie Captain by mathdude



Conclusion
Thank you to everyone who submitted an entry to the challenge. I hope everyone enjoyed the challenge. I really had trouble picking a winner as I liked all of the designs in one way or another. I could have easily added more to the runners-up I did pick. I want to apologize for the delay on posting this as this has clearly gone longer than a week. I know some of my choices or critiques may be off, but I tried to be honest and up front with my reasonings. Thank you for letting me oversee this challenge.

Congratulations to mathdude and I look forward to the next challenge!
« Last Edit: April 02, 2021, 06:26:51 pm by Xen3k »
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mathdude

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #109: Raise the dead.
« Reply #106 on: April 02, 2021, 09:01:52 pm »
+1

Thanks Xen3k!

I found this contest really fun. I may end up printing a few of these on blanks and add them to my Nocturne set.

I'll get the next contest up shortly. Maybe tonight or maybe tomorrow morning.
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Holger

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #109: Raise the dead.
« Reply #107 on: April 03, 2021, 06:51:15 am »
0

This is my participation:

Btw, how balance or elegance are considered durring the judging ?
I don't think Debt cost is a good idea on this. This will be a required opening buy 95% of the time.

I think Debt does seem like a good idea, as it allows it to be bought earlier than it otherwise would (since this is helpful earlier in the game, probably more than later).  $8 seems too high.  4 debt plus $4 cost is effectively no different than 8 debt.  What about $6?  Or $6 plus 2 debt?  Then it's not an immediate buy, but still is reachable early enough.

A completely different take on it - you could "... may trash a card from your hand costing at least $2 to..."
This seems more in line with the official cards, encouraging actually useful cards to go into the trash for future use.  It would still allow trashing your 3 estates, but it couldn't trash copper or curse for benefit anymore.  At this point, full debt cost would probably be okay (and/or possibly a cheaper cost).
Originaly I've made it at just 8 coins and that's how I put it on discord. But they point out that, with this cost, the first player who buy it will probably win the game. So they advice me to put it at the same cost as Donate because it's exactly for these reason that card like chappel or Donate have a cost that allow them to be bought in your first shuffle.

I don't think that being the first to get a $8 Necromancy is a game-winning advantage, compared to existing cards and landscapes costing $8 (Prince, Citadel, Pathfinding). Trashing a card is much weaker by the time you have built your deck up to $8, and whether you get Necromancy on turn 6 or turn 8, say, may not make such a huge difference.

Donate is a different case as you usually don't want to buy it turn 1, so Donate's debt cost doesn't remove the interesting decision of when to gain it (the same is true for Royal Blacksmith). But Necromancy (like Cathedral) is usually best bought as soon as possible, which means turn 1 with a pure debt cost.

Quote
Your idea of a trash-fer benefit is a good idea and this is how I'll change the card if the constest wasn't finished (exept if we could change it before the result)
Agreed, this suggestion sounds good.
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