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Author Topic: Anticipating Renaissance  (Read 2143 times)

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Holunder9

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Anticipating Renaissance
« on: August 28, 2018, 11:31:28 am »
0

While we are waiting on Renaissance it might be fun to come up with some cards that could match the expansion.

$4
Action
Trash a card from your hand. Take a number of Action tokens equal to its cost in Coins.


Nothing fancy, salvage for Action tokens. Could be too crazy.


$4
Action
+1 Card
+2 Actions
Pay any number of Coin tokens, then draw that many cards.


A village that converts Coin tokens into Card tokens and liquidates them.


$2
Event
You may do this more than once: convert 3 Coin tokens into 2 Victory tokens or vice versa.


OK, doesn't strictly match the expansion as it doesn't seem to include Events and Victory tokens.
This could be bonkers with Baker or even Plaza but at least early in the game you normally prefer 1 Coin token over 1 Victory token. So perhaps it is most interesting in Kingdoms with Victory tokens.


$5*
Artifact - Victory
At the start of each of your turns: You may trash a card from your hand. If you did not, +1 Card.
----------
When you buy this, you may overpay for it. If you did not overpay as much as there are Coin tokens on this, return it to the Supply. If you did, remove the Coin tokens on this and for each you overpaid, put a Coin token on this.
This costs 5 plus the number of Coin tokens on it.


The basic idea is that there is only one copy of each Artifact, that it is out-of-deck and that you can bid for it (not particularly creative as I have something similar in my fan cards set with Conjuration). If somebody bids more than you later though you lose it entirely.
I first wanted to do this as pure Victory card but realized that it is too similar to Mountain Pass and not dynamic enough; in most games somebody will pay a lot of for a lot of VPs late in the game lest somebody pays more. With this you have an incentive to go for it early, even if somebody takes it away from you a few turns later.
The wording is bad though as it only refers to buy and not gain as it should (unless you specify that Artifacts are something like Events, i.e. you can only buy them and then get the card-shaped thing in front of you).
« Last Edit: August 28, 2018, 11:38:37 am by Holunder9 »
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GendoIkari

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Re: Anticipating Renaissance
« Reply #1 on: August 28, 2018, 11:38:21 am »
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Your Village doesn't work, because it doesn't give a way to get Coffers. Sure it might still be fine as a vanilla Village for in a game without Coffers, but it would still be really weird.
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Holunder9

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Re: Anticipating Renaissance
« Reply #2 on: August 28, 2018, 11:41:48 am »
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Your Village doesn't work, because it doesn't give a way to get Coffers. Sure it might still be fine as a vanilla Village for in a game without Coffers, but it would still be really weird.
It is meant as a set-focused combo card. In total random it could suck even more than Mining Village.
One way to fix it would be a split pile but this is really more about pitching the idea of converting Coin tokens into draw.
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Simon Jester

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Re: Anticipating Renaissance
« Reply #3 on: August 28, 2018, 11:43:37 am »
+1

Your Village doesn't work, because it doesn't give a way to get Coffers. Sure it might still be fine as a vanilla Village for in a game without Coffers, but it would still be really weird.

Give it +1 coffers instead of +card should be an easy enough solution.

GendoIkari

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Re: Anticipating Renaissance
« Reply #4 on: August 28, 2018, 01:28:36 pm »
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Your Village doesn't work, because it doesn't give a way to get Coffers. Sure it might still be fine as a vanilla Village for in a game without Coffers, but it would still be really weird.

Give it +1 coffers instead of +card should be an easy enough solution.

Perfect, if it's not too strong.
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kru5h

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Re: Anticipating Renaissance
« Reply #5 on: August 28, 2018, 07:03:37 pm »
+3

I'll go with the obvious.

Maker, Action, $4
+1 Card
+1 Action
Take an Action token.
-
Setup: Each player starts with an Action token.

Holunder9

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Re: Anticipating Renaissance
« Reply #6 on: August 29, 2018, 03:20:31 am »
0

I'll go with the obvious.

Maker, Action, $4
+1 Card
+1 Action
Take an Action token.
-
Setup: Each player starts with an Action token.
While I guess this Baker symmetry is partly in jest it is also interesting, it makes the card an itzy-bitzy tiny bit weaker as you have to go later for villages.

About Action tokens in general, based on Coin of the Realm I think it is safe to claim that the relative strength of Action tokens over Actions is larger than that of Coin tokens over Coins.
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Holunder9

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Re: Anticipating Renaissance
« Reply #7 on: August 31, 2018, 10:10:30 am »
0

$3
Action
You may discard an Action card. If you do, +2 Cards and take 2 Action tokens.


I already had the idea of this conditional village that requires you to discard another Action card for a while but it was too lackluster for a full card. With Action tokens it becomes more flavourful.


Here is a better, less risky version that is too bland for my taste:

$3
Action
+1 Card
+1 Action

You may discard an Action card. If you do, +1 Card and take an Action token.
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Kudasai

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Re: Anticipating Renaissance
« Reply #8 on: September 01, 2018, 04:54:23 pm »
+1

I wonder if Action tokens will need to be used at the start of a player's Action phase versus whenever they want. I think the latter would ruin too many aspects of Dominion.
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LostPhoenix

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Re: Anticipating Renaissance
« Reply #9 on: September 01, 2018, 06:04:51 pm »
+1

Name Predictions: Bust/Statue, Epic, Scholar, Abbey/Cathedral, Artist, Theatre, Architect
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Holunder9

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Re: Anticipating Renaissance
« Reply #10 on: September 02, 2018, 01:59:51 am »
0

I wonder if Action tokens will need to be used at the start of a player's Action phase versus whenever they want. I think the latter would ruin too many aspects of Dominion.
Cards like Coin of the Realm and Sauna/Avanto (if you interpret Avanto drawing into Sauna as similar to Smithy with no Actions left drawing into other Action cards and then using an Action token) indicate a design direction that is fine with "whenever". But as always playtesting might have come to the conclusion that "whenever" is too strong.
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4est

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Re: Anticipating Renaissance
« Reply #11 on: September 15, 2018, 01:48:22 pm »
+3

I've always thought an Attack that interacted with coin tokens would be neat, though probably tricky to balance.  Maybe we'll get one in Renaissance!  Here's my stab at it:

$5
Action-Attack

+2 Coffers
Each other player may remove one token from their Coffers. If they don't, they gain a Curse.
---
When you gain this, each other player gets +1 Coffers.
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ClouduHieh

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Re: Anticipating Renaissance
« Reply #12 on: September 24, 2018, 01:08:54 am »
0

Name predictions: flea market, watch post/barracks and painter.
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trivialknot

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Re: Anticipating Renaissance
« Reply #13 on: September 24, 2018, 01:55:45 am »
+1

What if you had a village that stopped working after a while, and then you had to rely on saved action tokens?

$3 Action
+1 Card, +1 Action.  If no supply piles are empty, +1 action token.
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crlundy

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Re: Anticipating Renaissance
« Reply #14 on: September 25, 2018, 02:47:58 pm »
0

An idea I had years ago, but never tested it (wordings updated to reflect Villagers):

Quote
Action
Choose 1: +2 Villagers; or remove from 1 to 3 tokens from your Villagers mat, choose a card in your hand, and play that card once per token removed.

Here are some other ideas that are mostly trying to reverse-engineer the Teasers (probably wildly unbalanced or broken) and I'm not even going to try to guess costs:

Quote
Action - Duration
Now and the start of your next turn, choose one: +1 Card; +1 Coffers; or +1 Villager.

Quote
Treasure - Duration
For the rest of the game, at the start of your Buy phase: +$1, +1 Buy, and trash a card from your hand. (This stays in play.)

Quote
Action - Reaction
+1 Coffers. Trash a card from your hand.

When you trash a card, you may discard this, for +1 Coffers per $1 is costs.

Quote
Project? Artifact?
After the last turn this game, but before scoring: +1 Villager and take an extra turn.

Quote
Action
+2 Coffers. You may move any number of tokens from your Coffers to your Villagers mat.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2018, 07:44:46 pm by crlundy »
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Holunder9

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Re: Anticipating Renaissance
« Reply #15 on: September 26, 2018, 08:00:46 am »
0

We haven't seen any terminal draw yet so here is a payload-draw mixture idea that is probably too strong. I guess +3 Coffers alone would already be OK for a $5:

$5
Action
+3 Coffers
You may remove any number of Coin tokens from your Coffers mat for +1 Card per Coin token removed.


and even stronger:

$5
Action
+3 Coffers
-----------------
While this is in play, directly after resolving an Action, you may remove any number of Coin tokens from your Coffers mat for +1 Card per Coin token removed.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Anticipating Renaissance
« Reply #16 on: September 26, 2018, 11:07:04 am »
+1

We haven't seen any terminal draw yet

Scholar? Silk Merchant?
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Holunder9

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Re: Anticipating Renaissance
« Reply #17 on: September 28, 2018, 02:56:08 am »
0

Ironmonger with tokens. No idea about whether it is good enough at $5 without the Spying.

$5
Action


Reveal the top card of your deck. If it is an...
Action card, +1 Villager
Treasure card, +1 Coffers
Victory card, +1

+1 Card
+1 Action
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crlundy

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Re: Anticipating Renaissance
« Reply #18 on: September 28, 2018, 05:09:10 pm »
0

If it were in Renaissance, it couldn't have the VP tokens. :/ You could make it shorter too (but with a different interaction with -1 Card token): "+1 Action. Reveal the top card of your deck; you may put it into your hand. If it's anÖ"
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Kudasai

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Re: Anticipating Renaissance
« Reply #19 on: September 28, 2018, 06:36:20 pm »
0

I predict for one of the duration cards a way to gamble with your Villager tokens to get more Actions out of them. You could increase your Action gain by 100% from Village tokens, but if you don't end up using all of the Actions this card is essentially a waste. I'm not sure how useful +1 Card, +1 Villager is early game, but maybe useful enough to warrant this costing $4.



Also, I'm making an assumption on how the wording would go for using Villager tokens in this fashion. There is probably a more clean way to word this.

EDIT Mule Team(v0.2): Cost changed to $2 Coin from $3 Coin.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2018, 03:04:15 pm by Kudasai »
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Holunder9

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Re: Anticipating Renaissance
« Reply #20 on: September 29, 2018, 04:38:53 am »
0

Not sure that this is good enough for $3. It net yields at most 2 Actions but it is spread over two turns.
Of course the general Duration logic applies, it good be great to have 2 extra Actions at the start of the next turn and one Action less at the current turn.
But I think that this isn't good enough to compensate for the usual Duration disadvantages. Perhaps buff it via allowing Villagers to be spend for 2 Actions in general next turn? Could of course become too crazy if paired with other cards that yields Villagers.
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Kudasai

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Re: Anticipating Renaissance
« Reply #21 on: September 29, 2018, 03:03:04 pm »
0

Not sure that this is good enough for $3. It net yields at most 2 Actions but it is spread over two turns.
Of course the general Duration logic applies, it good be great to have 2 extra Actions at the start of the next turn and one Action less at the current turn.
But I think that this isn't good enough to compensate for the usual Duration disadvantages. Perhaps buff it via allowing Villagers to be spend for 2 Actions in general next turn? Could of course become too crazy if paired with other cards that yields Villagers.

I agree that it's not a strong card. Originally I had it at cost $2 Coin, but changed it last minute because I'm just unsure how good "+1 Card, +1 Villager" is. Probably not that great!

Allowing Villagers to gain +2 Actions for the whole turn would be a good buff, but it goes against the core mechanic I wanted for the card; gambling at the start of your turn on how many Actions you'll need for it. A friend suggested allowing multiple Villagers to be used at the start of the turn. This could be an option, but for now I'm inclined to just make it cost $2.

Thanks for the feedback and starting a fun thread!
« Last Edit: September 29, 2018, 03:06:46 pm by Kudasai »
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Holunder9

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Re: Anticipating Renaissance
« Reply #22 on: September 30, 2018, 03:14:43 pm »
0

Not sure that this is good enough for $3. It net yields at most 2 Actions but it is spread over two turns.
Of course the general Duration logic applies, it good be great to have 2 extra Actions at the start of the next turn and one Action less at the current turn.
But I think that this isn't good enough to compensate for the usual Duration disadvantages. Perhaps buff it via allowing Villagers to be spend for 2 Actions in general next turn? Could of course become too crazy if paired with other cards that yields Villagers.

I agree that it's not a strong card. Originally I had it at cost $2 Coin, but changed it last minute because I'm just unsure how good "+1 Card, +1 Villager" is. Probably not that great!

Allowing Villagers to gain +2 Actions for the whole turn would be a good buff, but it goes against the core mechanic I wanted for the card; gambling at the start of your turn on how many Actions you'll need for it. A friend suggested allowing multiple Villagers to be used at the start of the turn. This could be an option, but for now I'm inclined to just make it cost $2.

Thanks for the feedback and starting a fun thread!
Yeah, that's probably the best way forward. If you take a Duration Village as benchmark, i.e. +1 Card +1 Action | At the start of your next turn: +1 Action pricing this at $2 is probably right.
But there is the extra option, of this being +1 Card | At the start of your next turn: +2 Actions and the crucial question is probably whether this flexibility that Villagers provide is good enough to make this cost $3.

I guess that can only be determined via playtesting or playing Renaissance, once it is out, a lot to get a feeling for how good Villagers are.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Anticipating Renaissance
« Reply #23 on: October 05, 2018, 06:14:55 pm »
0

+1 Card, +1 Villager is great as early game you will often not need to use the villager and can really accumulate them.

More likely I think we'll see

Villager Peddler
Action - $5
+1 Card
+1 Villager
+$1

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GendoIkari

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Re: Anticipating Renaissance
« Reply #24 on: October 05, 2018, 06:36:30 pm »
+1

+1 Card, +1 Villager is great as early game you will often not need to use the villager and can really accumulate them.

More likely I think we'll see

Villager Peddler
Action - $5
+1 Card
+1 Villager
+$1

Maybe? Nothing seems wrong with the card; as a basic Renaissance version of Baker. But even Baker had the setup clause to make it more interesting; That card seems too vanilla even for a set that focuses on simplicity.

Also, the teasers didn't mention a card with only 2 words.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Anticipating Renaissance
« Reply #25 on: October 05, 2018, 08:14:25 pm »
0

+1 Card, +1 Villager is great as early game you will often not need to use the villager and can really accumulate them.

More likely I think we'll see

Villager Peddler
Action - $5
+1 Card
+1 Villager
+$1

Maybe? Nothing seems wrong with the card; as a basic Renaissance version of Baker. But even Baker had the setup clause to make it more interesting; That card seems too vanilla even for a set that focuses on simplicity.

Also, the teasers didn't mention a card with only 2 words.

And a card so simple could afford to have a special bottom (like Ducat) - not ruling it out at all.

It would be more interesting to prove that "+1 Card, +1 Villager" is a functional enough village for sure (as a $2 card), but the Peddler Variant would be more useful late game.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Anticipating Renaissance
« Reply #26 on: October 05, 2018, 08:17:22 pm »
0

Now would be the time for cards that have the drawback of giving opponents Coffers/Villagers.
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crlundy

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Re: Anticipating Renaissance
« Reply #27 on: October 08, 2018, 07:45:31 pm »
+1

What do people think about this as an Artifact/Project? "At the start of your Buy phase, you may put a card from your hand onto your deck." Helps with terminal collisions.
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Kudasai

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Re: Anticipating Renaissance
« Reply #28 on: October 09, 2018, 08:47:26 pm »
0

What do people think about this as an Artifact/Project? "At the start of your Buy phase, you may put a card from your hand onto your deck." Helps with terminal collisions.

I think it would be too strong, but it's hard to say. Maybe this would be a good place to use NoMoreFun's idea of handing out Coffers and Villagers to opponents?

"At the start of your Buy phase, you may reveal and put a card from your hand onto your deck. If it is an... Action card, each other player gets +1 Villager; Treasure card, each other player gets +1 Coffers."

This seems incredibly weak though, which makes me think it might make a good Attack Artifact, if such a thing is feasible.   
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crlundy

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Re: Anticipating Renaissance
« Reply #29 on: October 09, 2018, 10:28:50 pm »
0

If it's strong, you can mitigate that by making it an expensive Project, or an easy to take Artifact (so that nobody has it for that long). It fits the Renaissance short-and-simple vibe. Mostly, it's just an ability that I have often wanted haha.
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kru5h

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Re: Anticipating Renaissance
« Reply #30 on: October 10, 2018, 04:04:23 am »
+1

I bet the "way to take a turn after the game would otherwise be over" is a project.

I've tried to design such a card before, and it would be much easier as a project.

Quote
Courthouse, Project,
When the game would end, instead take one extra turn, continuing turn order.

Holunder9

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Re: Anticipating Renaissance
« Reply #31 on: October 10, 2018, 07:47:40 am »
0

What do people think about this as an Artifact/Project? "At the start of your Buy phase, you may put a card from your hand onto your deck." Helps with terminal collisions.

I think it would be too strong, but it's hard to say. Maybe this would be a good place to use NoMoreFun's idea of handing out Coffers and Villagers to opponents?

"At the start of your Buy phase, you may reveal and put a card from your hand onto your deck. If it is an... Action card, each other player gets +1 Villager; Treasure card, each other player gets +1 Coffers."

This seems incredibly weak though, which makes me think it might make a good Attack Artifact, if such a thing is feasible.
I disagree and actually think that it is weaker than Scheme's effect. Scheme topdecks a played Action whereas this topdecks any unplayed card. It is nice in money but with Actions I guess that the amount of played Actions is on average larger than the amount of unplayed ones.
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greybirdofprey

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Re: Anticipating Renaissance
« Reply #32 on: October 10, 2018, 12:14:44 pm »
0

If I expect a Remodel variant, a card that protects against (some) Attacks, a Cursing Attack, a Silver gainer, a Peddler variant, an alt-VP card, another card with +2 Actions, another card that's very similar to an existing card, a card that almost everyone thinks is the biggest dud in the expansion, and a card that will get at least three times as much attention on this forum as all the other Renaissance cards, I'm probably going to get some right. I know DXV said in the teaser there's no Victory cards but I think there might be at least one as Project/Artifact.

Also, there's probably going to be some more interactions between Coffers/Villagers/Projects/Artifacts, aside from just Swashbuckler.

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LastFootnote

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Re: Anticipating Renaissance
« Reply #33 on: October 10, 2018, 01:07:49 pm »
+2

Also, there's probably going to be some more interactions between Coffers/Villagers/Projects/Artifacts, aside from just Swashbuckler.

That reminds me of the version of Villain I really wanted. I suggested the final version as well, but that's after Donald X. shot down my most-loved version. Some other playtesting group also loved it, can't recall with 100% certainly which one, but Donald X. tried it and hated it, and so much for that.

Villain: Action - Attack, $5
+2 Coffers
Each other player with 5 or more cards in hand discards one of them, costing at least $1 per Coffers token you have.

So yeah, the published version is a toned-down version of that. At least that's how I see it.
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ben_king

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Re: Anticipating Renaissance
« Reply #34 on: October 10, 2018, 01:14:55 pm »
+1

That version of Villain was my favorite Renaissance card that didn't make it.  So much fun (for people outside of California).
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Asper

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Re: Anticipating Renaissance
« Reply #35 on: October 10, 2018, 01:19:49 pm »
+1

Also, there's probably going to be some more interactions between Coffers/Villagers/Projects/Artifacts, aside from just Swashbuckler.

That reminds me of the version of Villain I really wanted. I suggested the final version as well, but that's after Donald X. shot down my most-loved version. Some other playtesting group also loved it, can't recall with 100% certainly which one, but Donald X. tried it and hated it, and so much for that.

Villain: Action - Attack, $5
+2 Coffers
Each other player with 5 or more cards in hand discards one of them, costing at least $1 per Coffers token you have.

So yeah, the published version is a toned-down version of that. At least that's how I see it.

Honestly, I'm glad he chose the other one. This just sounds absurdly brutal if you play it right. Always keep 3 tokens around, make players discard a card costing 5$ or more... That's not good times. It becomes even worse by the fact that you can't strike back if the only 5$ in your hand is Villain (which is loads more likely than it being the only card costing 2$ or more). Estates not giving any protection as long as you keep one measly token unused would have given a player who can open with this a huge advantage.

LastFootnote

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Re: Anticipating Renaissance
« Reply #36 on: October 10, 2018, 01:22:58 pm »
0

Honestly, I'm glad he chose the other one. This just sounds absurdly brutal if you play it right. Always keep 3 tokens around, make players discard a card costing 5$ or more... That's not good times. It becomes even worse by the fact that you can't strike back if the only 5$ in your hand is Villain (which is loads more likely than it being the only card costing 2$ or more). Estates not giving any protection as long as you keep one measly token unused would have given a player who can open with this a huge advantage.

Yeah, and that's the reason it didn't make it. As Donald X. said, "It was not fun to discard my fun, not even once." So agreed, probably for the best that it didn't make it. But however brutal it could be for the opponents, it was really fun to be the one playing it, balancing keeping tokens vs. spending them.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Anticipating Renaissance
« Reply #37 on: October 10, 2018, 03:29:28 pm »
0

Estates not giving any protection as long as you keep one measly token unused would have given a player who can open with this a huge advantage.

This last part I disagree with, though. Barring Baker's setup or whatever, your first play of Villain is going to hit Estates. It's going to be turn 5 at the earliest that you can start hitting harder.
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Holunder9

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Re: Anticipating Renaissance
« Reply #38 on: October 10, 2018, 04:27:25 pm »
0

Ignoring that the card could be too strong, it looks so much more interesting than the official Villain.
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Asper

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Re: Anticipating Renaissance
« Reply #39 on: October 10, 2018, 04:35:37 pm »
+1

Ignoring that the card could be too strong, it looks so much more interesting than the official Villain.
It's not about strength, it's about it being super unfun for all but one participant in this interaction. Saboteur doesn't suck because it's too strong, and neither does Possession.

Holunder9

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Re: Anticipating Renaissance
« Reply #40 on: October 10, 2018, 05:11:48 pm »
0

True that, Possession sucks because it is extremly complicated. Getting mad that somebody uses your hand is plain irrational, it is not like anybody is taking anything from you, you still get a normal turn afterwards. Possession could have been, "take an extra turn", but that's not particularly interactive and we don't want Dominion to be multiplayer solitaire, do we?

About Saboteur, it doesn't suck because some folks loathe de-Remodelling of their cards. That's their issue. The cards sucks because it is weak. I still use it though, as my gaming group considers the card to be fun in the Kingdoms in which it is not so weak. Yeah, weird world, they actually find Saboteur fun.

Ths is hardly surprising as fun is always pretty subjective. Alice loses the Knight split in a 2P game and doesn't find ththe constant hammering fun. Bob loses the Cultist race in a game without trashers and despite of the zillion Ruins in his deck he enjoys the game he loses. You play Dominion with a Eurogamer and he might mind all Attacks whereas the wargamers and Ameritrashers might love 'em. Who cares, you cannot satisfy everybody. If you mind devastating Attacks like Torturer or Cultist (I never use that overpowered monster myself but hey, as I said, Bob might find that card fun) you can simply play without them.

Back to Villain, it could easily end up being Raider-level weak which is why I find it a pity that Donald went for a simple (OK, that's the motto of the expansion) and weak Attack instead of a LFN's stronger and more complex one.
Just think about the repercussions, getting always hit by a 5er-Villain could e.g. make you want to green earlier to have a Province to discard. The card creates nice trade-offs for the active player and influences gameplay of the passive player.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Anticipating Renaissance
« Reply #41 on: October 10, 2018, 05:16:38 pm »
+4

If enough people dislike the experience of playing with card, however "irrational" they may or may not be, that can kill a card. And I think that's as it should be.
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Holunder9

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Re: Anticipating Renaissance
« Reply #42 on: October 10, 2018, 05:24:40 pm »
0

Sure, majorities matter and if a large part of one's playtesting group dislikes a card it doesn't matter whether the card is perfectly balanced, objectively fine and so on.
All I am saying is that people are different. Saboteur has been nixed and yet my playing group likes it, Rebuild still exists yet I wouldn't touch that thing with a ten-foot pole.
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: Anticipating Renaissance
« Reply #43 on: October 10, 2018, 05:26:08 pm »
+1

Honestly, I'm glad he chose the other one. This just sounds absurdly brutal if you play it right. Always keep 3 tokens around, make players discard a card costing 5$ or more... That's not good times. It becomes even worse by the fact that you can't strike back if the only 5$ in your hand is Villain (which is loads more likely than it being the only card costing 2$ or more). Estates not giving any protection as long as you keep one measly token unused would have given a player who can open with this a huge advantage.

Yeah, and that's the reason it didn't make it. As Donald X. said, "It was not fun to discard my fun, not even once." So agreed, probably for the best that it didn't make it. But however brutal it could be for the opponents, it was really fun to be the one playing it, balancing keeping tokens vs. spending them.

I'd have made you spend the Coffers to raise the minimum price of target. But then it would still make other players discard their fun, even if it cost a lot.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Anticipating Renaissance
« Reply #44 on: October 10, 2018, 05:29:11 pm »
+1

Sure, majorities matter and if a large part of one's playtesting group dislikes a card it doesn't matter whether the card is perfectly balanced, objectively fine and so on.
All I am saying is that people are different. Saboteur has been nixed and yet my playing group likes it, Rebuild still exists yet I wouldn't touch that thing with a ten-foot pole.

That's not remotely a fair comparison. If Donald X. ever were to make a true second edition of Dark Ages, I'm quite confident he'd remove Rebuild. He's said many times that he regrets it.

I'd have made you spend the Coffers to raise the minimum price of target. But then it would still make other players discard their fun, even if it cost a lot.

At first blush, that doesn't sound good to me. Too much potential for spending Coffers only to have it whiff.
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Holunder9

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Re: Anticipating Renaissance
« Reply #45 on: October 10, 2018, 05:43:56 pm »
0

Sure, majorities matter and if a large part of one's playtesting group dislikes a card it doesn't matter whether the card is perfectly balanced, objectively fine and so on.
All I am saying is that people are different. Saboteur has been nixed and yet my playing group likes it, Rebuild still exists yet I wouldn't touch that thing with a ten-foot pole.

That's not remotely a fair comparison. If Donald X. ever were to make a true second edition of Dark Ages, I'm quite confident he'd remove Rebuild. He's said many times that he regrets it.
I am not complaining (rather seemingly doing something similar as the game designer), this was just meant as an example for different preferences. It is like Alice saying that Village is too vanilla for her taste and Bob saying that his favourite village is Village.
You yourself would have obviously liked to see your version of Villain whereas DXV did not which is just another example of variety of tastes.
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trivialknot

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Re: Anticipating Renaissance
« Reply #46 on: October 10, 2018, 08:46:40 pm »
0

The teasers said there would be a trasher that you can't turn off, but we didn't get to see it in the previews.  Seems like an obvious Project idea, although I'm not sure how the details would work out.
Quote
Trasher you can't turn off - $2 Project
At the beginning of each turn, +1 card, then trash a card from your hand.

I'm not sure if this is a good turn 1 buy, or if it becomes a liability later on, especially in games without +buy.  Maybe it could cost $5 or $6 instead.  I put in the +1 card so it isn't garbage against discard attacks, but there are probably other ways of dealing with that issue.

Another idea:

Quote
Trasher you can't turn off - $6 Project
At the beginning of each turn, trash a card from your hand, and gain a non-victory card costing no more than it, to your hand.

So you could get a Transmogrify-type effect each turn.  But maybe that would just demolish piles, so I restricted it from milling Provinces.
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ConMan

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Re: Anticipating Renaissance
« Reply #47 on: October 10, 2018, 09:04:23 pm »
0

The teasers said there would be a trasher that you can't turn off, but we didn't get to see it in the previews.
I thought Sewers was confirmed as the always-on trasher.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Anticipating Renaissance
« Reply #48 on: October 10, 2018, 10:19:02 pm »
0

The teasers said there would be a trasher that you can't turn off, but we didn't get to see it in the previews.
I thought Sewers was confirmed as the always-on trasher.

No, itís not Sewers.
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ConMan

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Re: Anticipating Renaissance
« Reply #49 on: October 10, 2018, 11:00:42 pm »
0

The teasers said there would be a trasher that you can't turn off, but we didn't get to see it in the previews.
I thought Sewers was confirmed as the always-on trasher.

No, itís not Sewers.
Neat-o.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Anticipating Renaissance
« Reply #50 on: October 11, 2018, 02:04:59 pm »
0

The teasers said there would be a trasher that you can't turn off, but we didn't get to see it in the previews.
I thought Sewers was confirmed as the always-on trasher.

No, that was just me being pedantic.
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Holunder9

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Re: Anticipating Renaissance
« Reply #51 on: October 11, 2018, 02:31:46 pm »
+1

OK, there are no Events in Renaissance but nonetheless, Delve for Villagers:


$2
Event
+1 Buy and +1 Villager

$2
Event
+1 Villager. If this is the first time you buy UNNAMED EVENT this turn, +1 Buy.

$2
Event
Once per turn: +1 Buy and +1 Villager


There is an interesting discussion in Asper's thread about the mirror version of this for Coffers that did not work (and, on a sidenote, I think that this is a very important playtesting result and it made Asper understand the strength of Coffers far better than somebody like me who, in spite of using some fan cards with Coffers, never tried something simple like convert 2 Coins into 1 Coffers and thus never got such clear insights). LibraryAdventurer had an idea to fix this via forcing you to spend Buys on this Event beyond the first one and an even harsher version would be to make it only once per turn.
I guess that Villagers are slightly weaker (I know, it is a a nearly impossible comparison) than Coffers but above all they are not brilliant in quantities. 16 Coffers and 2 Buys are 2 Provinces whereas 16 Villagers is just the end of worries about your engine not running. With Villagers there is (probably?) nothing abusive / game ruining like the smoothing of Coins over turns that you can too easily do with the Coffers version of this Event.
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Kudasai

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Re: Anticipating Renaissance
« Reply #52 on: October 12, 2018, 03:09:41 pm »
0

$2
Event
+1 Buy and +1 Villager

I like your assessment of Coffers versus Villagers and think this version of your Event would be a fine starting point. Whether $2 is worth 1 Villager probably depends on the Kingdom and where you are in the game. The player who manages their purchases of this Event will probably get rewarded nicely for it!
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Kudasai

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Re: Anticipating Renaissance
« Reply #53 on: October 12, 2018, 03:16:15 pm »
0

The teasers said there would be a trasher that you can't turn off, but we didn't get to see it in the previews.  Seems like an obvious Project idea, although I'm not sure how the details would work out.
Quote
Trasher you can't turn off - $2 Project
At the beginning of each turn, +1 card, then trash a card from your hand.

I'm not sure if this is a good turn 1 buy, or if it becomes a liability later on, especially in games without +buy.  Maybe it could cost $5 or $6 instead.  I put in the +1 card so it isn't garbage against discard attacks, but there are probably other ways of dealing with that issue.

Another idea:

Quote
Trasher you can't turn off - $6 Project
At the beginning of each turn, trash a card from your hand, and gain a non-victory card costing no more than it, to your hand.

So you could get a Transmogrify-type effect each turn.  But maybe that would just demolish piles, so I restricted it from milling Provinces.

Yeah, a project seems like a likely fit. I'm not sure why it would be, but it could also be a Duration (Permanent). Either way, I think you're correct that it will need a little extra on top of the trashing to make it worth it. +1 Card would be good (maybe too good), but I could also see +$1 (for a permanent Junk Dealer) working well.

The earlier you get this the better your deck will come together, but getting it early also makes you run the risk of running out of junk to trash by late game.
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Holunder9

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Re: Anticipating Renaissance
« Reply #54 on: October 12, 2018, 04:48:10 pm »
0

I doubt that it is a straightforward out-of-hand trasher, that can be pretty harsh in the ending. Perhaps it is a Remodeller or and out-of-hand-trasher or it includes the option to not trash, like Sentry. The expansion is after all meant to be simple so I doubt that there will be something nasty that can massively backfire.
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crlundy

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Re: Anticipating Renaissance
« Reply #55 on: October 14, 2018, 06:23:56 pm »
0

I doubt that it is a straightforward out-of-hand trasher, that can be pretty harsh in the ending. Perhaps it is a Remodeller or and out-of-hand-trasher or it includes the option to not trash, like Sentry. The expansion is after all meant to be simple so I doubt that there will be something nasty that can massively backfire.

Could be something kind of like a cross between Transmogrify and Amulet:

Project
Trash a card from your hand. Choose one: gain a card costing up to $1 more than it; or +$1.
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Fly-Eagles-Fly

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Re: Anticipating Renaissance
« Reply #56 on: October 14, 2018, 07:04:44 pm »
+1

I doubt that it is a straightforward out-of-hand trasher, that can be pretty harsh in the ending. Perhaps it is a Remodeller or and out-of-hand-trasher or it includes the option to not trash, like Sentry. The expansion is after all meant to be simple so I doubt that there will be something nasty that can massively backfire.

Could be something kind of like a cross between Transmogrify and Amulet:

Project
Trash a card from your hand. Choose one: gain a card costing up to $1 more than it; or +$1.
This would be:
At the start of your turn, trash a card from your hand.  Choose one: gain a card costing up to $1 more than it; or +$1.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Anticipating Renaissance
« Reply #57 on: October 14, 2018, 10:11:10 pm »
0

Tent City
Project - $6
At the start of your turn,  reveal your hand. +1 Action for each
Action card you revealed.

Road
Project - $5
At the start of your turn,  reveal your hand. +1 Card for each Victory card you revealed.

Sample
Project - $5
On your turns,  copies of cards you have in play cost $1 less (but not less than $0)
« Last Edit: October 15, 2018, 02:36:06 am by NoMoreFun »
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Kudasai

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Re: Anticipating Renaissance
« Reply #58 on: October 20, 2018, 03:58:23 pm »
+1

Perhaps a card that can gain both Coffers and Villagers, but has you manage each resource effectively for a draw bonus?



Not sure what good values for a card like this would be.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2018, 04:34:26 am by Kudasai »
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trivialknot

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Re: Anticipating Renaissance
« Reply #59 on: October 22, 2018, 01:15:13 pm »
+1

Rennaissance is coming soon!  Must take more shots in the dark in hopes of winning an internet point.

Quote
Crop Rotation - $5 Project
When you buy a card, trash a card from your hand.
Of all the leaked card names, Crop Rotation seemed like the most likely candidate for a forced trasher.  And then the name sounds like it would be triggered on buy.

Quote
Sinister Plot - $8 Project
When the end-game conditions are fulfilled, you take one more turn before the game ends.
This would be tricky rules-wise, because you have to have a rule for who takes their extra turn first, and what happens if someone buys Mission, Donate, or plays Possession on their last turn?  But the basic concept seems obvious enough.

Quote
Fleet - $6 Project
During your action phase, you may play any card face down as an action card with the name "Ship", which gives +$2.
The teaser says there's a card with a word in quotation marks.  I am completely mystified by the idea, so this is just a wild guess.

Next, my guesses for the unknown artifacts:
Quote
Border Guard - $3 Action/Reaction
+2 Cards
----------------
When the player to your left gains a card costing at least $5, you may reveal this from your hand to take the Horn.

Horn - Artifact
At the beginning of your turn, +1 Villager

Quote
Hideout - $3 Action
+1 Action
Choose one: Take the Lantern; +1 Card; Or look at the top two cards of your deck, trash one and put the other one back.

Lantern - Artifact
At the beginning of your turn, look at the top three cards of your deck, discard any of them, and put the rest back in any order.
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crj

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Re: Anticipating Renaissance
« Reply #60 on: October 23, 2018, 08:49:00 am »
0

Popping over here from the card-name-reveal thread, because people were speculating about what Spices does.

I'm sure Donald will have come up with something better, but this feels like an interesting idea, riffing on the notion that variety is the spice of life.

Quote
Spices - $4 Treasure
Worth $1
---
While this is in play, keep your hand revealed. Cards you do not have a copy of in hand or in play cost $2 less, but not less than $0.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Anticipating Renaissance
« Reply #61 on: October 23, 2018, 01:18:39 pm »
0

Just remember that in actual development, cards are assigned names, rather than being built around them. And they're assigned names from a constantly depleting supply of names.
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crlundy

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Re: Anticipating Renaissance
« Reply #62 on: October 23, 2018, 01:21:24 pm »
0

Spices - $4 Treasure
Worth $1
---
While this is in play, keep your hand revealed. Cards you do not have a copy of in hand or in play cost $2 less, but not less than $0.

The revealing gets interesting with Black Market, Storyteller, and Villa.
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crj

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Re: Anticipating Renaissance
« Reply #63 on: October 23, 2018, 06:15:24 pm »
0

I... think it stands a good chance of playing interestingly, actually: a nice early accelerant that becomes less useful later in the game; better in Big Money than an engine game where you draw your deck; helped greatly by discard-for-benefit.

In my dreams, it has good interactions without breaking anything, though who knows what would happen if I ever playtested it.
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: Anticipating Renaissance
« Reply #64 on: October 23, 2018, 06:29:57 pm »
0

As much as it makes me a killjoy to say this, I think you'd either have to increase the cost to make it hard to buy a lot of them, or add "non-Victory" to the payoff.
I can see it being too easy to combo with something like a Cellar and then buy Provinces on the cheap if you have +Buy.
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crj

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Re: Anticipating Renaissance
« Reply #65 on: October 23, 2018, 06:41:29 pm »
0

The trouble with Cellar is that, if you've drawn your deck, whatever you discard comes straight back. (-8

More generally, it feels like such shenanigans would be considerably harder to get right than equivalents which use Bridge. And they'd never help you buy more of themselves.
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crlundy

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Re: Anticipating Renaissance
« Reply #66 on: October 23, 2018, 09:00:15 pm »
0

I'm sure there are shenanigans with Bonfire and extra buys for 3-piling
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