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Author Topic: Dominion: Ice Age  (Read 3314 times)

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Gazbag

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Dominion: Ice Age
« on: December 04, 2017, 04:30:07 pm »
+22

Dominion: Ice Age is a homemade Dominion expansion I have been working on over the past couple of months, it's still in very early stages of development of course and the release of Nocturne has slowed down recent progress. The main theme of Ice Age is tokens and the set features two types of token: Ice tokens and the return of Coin tokens. I doubt any of these cards are balanced in their current forms so thoughts, feelings and suggestions are very appreciated!

Ice Tokens

A number of cards in the set involve setting aside cards and putting a number of Ice tokens on them. At the start of your turn you remove 1 Ice token from each card you own that is set aside with Ice tokens on it and when the last token is removed you put the card into your discard pile. This first batch of cards will focus on showing what can be done with Ice tokens.

Snow Hag

This was one of the first and most obvious concepts - a cheap Witch but the Curses are delayed. This means that the junk will take longer to enter the opponents deck, but if the game ends before all the tokens are removed then your opponent won't have a chance to trash the curse, which could be interesting.
Edit: Changed from 3 to 6 tokens.

Yeti

This is the other Ice token based attack, it's a trashing attack similar to Giant but it only temporarily removes the card from your opponents deck. It specifies action or treasure so it isn't sad to hit Duchies. I'm not sure whether I have the Ice token numbers right on either of these attacks yet.

Venturer

Any ideas for a better name? This cheap Lab can give you an early boost but eventually those Coppers are going to hurt. It also makes your frozen cards thaw out faster, which is bad because it means those Coppers are coming in sooner but is very nice with some other Ice token cards. I like the concept here but I'm not sure whether a cheap Lab is the right place for it.
Edit: Retired for now.

Rediscover

Again I'm not particularly happy with the name - it's hard to think of so many ice themed things! This is a cheap expand but the gained card is delayed based upon how much more expensive it was than the trashed card. Gain and play shenanigans are hard to do with this but trashing $5's into set aside Provinces might be too good, so this might have to be limited to gaining non-victory cards.

Mountain Village

Cards that are cheap for what they are, but are delayed with Ice tokens seems like a nice idea. This is a cheap village and it also rewards you for having others set aside. Again I'm not sure on the Ice token number. I like the name on this one, it's a village but it's up in the mountains so it takes a while to get there.
Edit: Changed from 3 to 5 tokens.

Ice Cave

The intent here is that you put 1 Ice token on per Ice Cave you have in play, but the wording on the card is bad.
Edit: Retired for now.

Glacier

I quite like this one, no idea how good it is though. It's an expensive Victory card that takes a while to enter your deck and basically gives you a free Baker for 4 turns. I guess technically this could work without Ice tokens and set itself aside with Coin tokens to track the turns, but this is supposed to interact nicely with Ice Cave and this set already has Ice tokens so it's probably better as is.

Frozen Cache

I couldn't find fitting art for this but oh well. Another one with wording issues but at least the intent is clear. I assume this is really weak but that's okay because so is a regular Cache.

Frost Spirit

Another obvious idea, a thinner that only temporarily removes cards from your deck. I think a cantrip trasher would be too good for $4, but too weak for $5 so hopefully this can find a good place at $4, I assume the number of tokens will have to be tweaked.

Cold Storage

A Workshop variant that can gain $5's, but you have to wait a bit before you get them.

Citadel

I believe every set is allowed to have some durations now, so Ice Age has a few. This is a duration Grand Market, which seems weaker than Grand Market. This one only has 1 token so you get it at the start of your next turn.

Coin token and off theme cards

Campsite


A village that you can pay to save for next turn, giving up money early can slow down building. Perhaps this makes deck drawing engines too consistent?

Sleigh

A Wishing Well type thing - seems balanced to me so for. Not the most exciting thing, but you can't exactly have an entire expansion of Governors either.


Final thoughts

I have a few other ideas to do with Ice tokens but need to think of good cards to put them on- one is a card that sets itself aside with 2 Ice tokens when you play it, so it's only in your deck every other turn (assuming you're drawing your deck) and another is a setup effect where you set aside a card costing up to $5 at the start of the game with 3 Ice tokens, so it enters your discard at the start of turn 3 (Cold Storage could be a good candidate for this).

A concern I have is to do with timing of shuffles, Ice tokens won't matter if you don't shuffle between setting the card aside and removing the last token. Hopefully this concept can still work out though. Thanks for reading!

Also I need to give a massive shoutout to Violet CLM's card image generator. It was used for all of the card images in this set. http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16622.0
« Last Edit: December 17, 2017, 05:45:42 pm by Gazbag »
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Chappy7

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #1 on: December 04, 2017, 04:41:12 pm »
+4

Wow, I really like this idea.  Since I'm supposed to be actually working right now, I don't have time to talk about all the cards, but one thing that I thought is that ice cave could probably let you put 2 ice tokens on victory cards.

Nice job.  Creative idea.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2017, 05:07:36 pm »
+4

I think the idea of Ice tokens is very cool. And I like a lot of the card concepts. I do think that instead of having 11 cards that use them, you'd be better served focusing on 5 or 6 of the simplest and best ones.
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ThetaSigma12

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #3 on: December 04, 2017, 05:17:36 pm »
+1

I think the idea of Ice tokens is very cool. And I like a lot of the card concepts. I do think that instead of having 11 cards that use them, you'd be better served focusing on 5 or 6 of the simplest and best ones.

I agree with this.

Snow Hag is probably too similar to Witch and a little strong at 4.

Yeti is probably too similar to Giant and a little weak at 5.

Venturer is nice, and seems to work well, but it might be too good with strong trashing.

Rediscover is probably too similar to expand, but if you could add another twist to the remodel-ice thing I would love it.

Mountain Village is cool.

Ice Cave (should have Buys then coins) looks nice, but does need better wording.

Glacier seems overpriced. I think it could cost 5.

Frozen Cache, meh. We have Cache and Treasure Trove and this doesn't seem interesting. I would consider cutting it.

Frost Spirit is good.

Cold Storage is boring, I like MultiTalented's Exotic Traders better.

Citadel only gives you 1 Ice token, so it seems like you could cut it easily.
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pacovf

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2017, 05:31:00 pm »
+4

Some of the wording could be improved by adding a "freeze" keyword.

So, the "rulebook" would say: "freeze a card: if the card is not already frozen, set it aside with an Ice token on it; otherwise, add an Ice token on it. At the beginning of each of your turns, remove an Ice token from each of your frozen cards. A frozen card with no Ice tokens on it is immediately put on your discard pile; it is no longer frozen".

And then something like Ice Cave could be: "In games using this, when you gain a Victory card, freeze it once per Ice Cave you have in play", Mountain village would be "if you have any frozen cards", etc.

I know Dominion expansions tend to avoid adding keywords, but this feels like a time when you want to introduce one.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2017, 05:41:38 pm by pacovf »
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Jimmmmm

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2017, 05:49:41 pm »
+1

I also really like the Ice tokens.

I think Venturer is super cheap with any kind of support to help with the Coppers. Especially if you can combo it with Frozen Cache/Cold Storage etc. Maybe not too cheap, I don't know. But really cheap.

Question: when you gain Venturer, do you put 5 tokens on a pile of 3 Coppers, or a total of 15 Coppers, 5 on each? I suspect the latter, since the former seems inconsistent with "remove 1 Ice token from each card". If the latter, Venturer should probably read "5 Ice tokens on each".

Here's an idea:


Ice Mage - $4 - Action

+1 Card
+1 Action
Move an Ice token from one of your cards set aside with Ice tokens to another.
-----
When you gain this, gain a Copper and a Gold and set them aside with 5 Ice tokens on each.


I'm sure you've had similar ideas, but I think it's interesting.
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Accatitippi

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2017, 06:09:17 pm »
+3

I really like the concept, and some of the cards are really nice at implementing it. :)

Snow Hag seems fairly straightforward, and still very good. I feel like it might not be different enough from Witch, though.

Yeti is a cool concept that might be a bit too oppressive in multiplayer? Also, giving a Curse seems almost always better than the freezing attack, maybe it could become a Militia on misses?

Venturer seems interesting, except maybe for the name  ;D (Speleologist? Spelunker?)
The only problem I see with it is that it's awful without a way to trash the coppers. Coming with 3 stop cards, it actually hurts your deck unless you can trash them.

Rediscover and Mountain Village look good, among the best of the set

Ice Cave seems weak, I agree it could easily freeze 2.

Glacier seems like a good variation on the "convert coins into coin tokens" event idea. Seems ok at 6, but it's hard to say without testing.

Frozen Cache delivers a lot of power in a single buy. It shouldn't have a + before the , and the color seems a bit off?
Maybe a corresponding Event would solve the verbosity problem?
Let it go - Event 6$
Gain a Copper, a Silver, and two Golds from their piles. Set them aside with respectively 1, 2, 3, and 4 Ice tokens on them.

I like that Frost Spirit essentially keeps away 4 cards as long as you have control of your deck. It might be too powerful in letting you hybernate a lot of points. Or maybe not - it's a criticism that comes up every time somebody proposes powerful pseudo-trashers, but it's a concept that I've yet to see it play out badly in a game (except when on broken cards).

Cold storage seems like a reasonable concept.

Citadel doesn't seem all that unique, and I wonder how often he single ice token will be relevant and whether it's worth the space.

All in all, it's a concept that is definitely worth exploring. :)
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Chappy7

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2017, 07:00:11 pm »
+2

I just read these again and I feel like I have to compliment you again.  Good job you bag of gaz you.  I hope you keep going with this idea. The theme is also super cool (lame pun kinda intended).

I like snow hag a lot, but as mentioned, it might not be unique enough? Although that isn't always bad.  Lots of official cards are pretty similar.  Maybe it could be a duration like swamp hag? At the start of next turn, get a coin and a card, or a card and an action or something like that.


Yeti could make other players freeze an action card from their hand rather than cursing.  That could be fun.

Venturer is isn't very good unless it comes with another freezing card.  And even then, several of the freezing cards freeze coppers, victory cards, or curses, so venturer would be bad then. Maybe it could say "you may" instead of making you remove ice tokens.  Then the coppers might need just 3 or 4 tokens on them.  I don't know, maybe I'm wrong and having a $2 lab that comes with 3 coppers is good even if it doesn't help you thaw out your other good cards.

I like the flexibility of Rediscover.  It's always lame when I end up using my expand as a remodel.

I'm not convinced that glacier is overpriced.  It seems pretty good to get a coin token each turn for a little while, plus a semi self trashing 2 points.  Either way, I love the idea.

Frost Spirit is way cool.  I can't tell if it is OP or not though.

I actually like the simplicity of cold storage.

The idea on citadel is fun.  Kinda like lost city.  It's a super powerful card with a negative on gain affect.  Although with only one ice token on it, lots of the time you'd just buy it and it would get into you discard next turn before you even shuffle.  It might need to be frozen twice.   
« Last Edit: December 05, 2017, 10:49:05 am by Chappy7 »
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Chappy7

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #8 on: December 04, 2017, 07:01:59 pm »
+2

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Jimmmmm

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #9 on: December 04, 2017, 07:04:18 pm »
0

I think Venturer is super cheap with any kind of support to help with the Coppers. Especially if you can combo it with Frozen Cache/Cold Storage etc. Maybe not too cheap, I don't know. But really cheap.

Huh, I somehow didn't realise that Venturer thaws its own Coppers. That makes it a lot weaker than I thought. Probably fine at $2.
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Gazbag

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #10 on: December 04, 2017, 09:23:10 pm »
+1

Oh wow this is much more well received so far than I anticipated!

I think the idea of Ice tokens is very cool. And I like a lot of the card concepts. I do think that instead of having 11 cards that use them, you'd be better served focusing on 5 or 6 of the simplest and best ones.

I agree with this, but first I'm going to have to figure out what the best ones are! I currently only have max 5 games with each of these cards so a lot more testing is needed.

Snow Witch: I like the idea of a frozen curser and I think you can take it 2 ways. The first is to have a cheap curser like this because the first few shuffles go quickly, so the delay on the curse is going to matter the most if you're playing this turn 3/4. The second is to make it more expensive or have some kind of condition so it only triggers late in the game and have the focus be more on a curse that is hard to trash so the attack is more about the - VP. I agree that giving this +2 cards is probably too close to Witch though, it was one of the first Ice token cards I came up with so I was trying to keep it simple. One thought I had was to give this the Venturer fast thaw thing, so it makes the Curses your opponent gives you thaw faster and then increase the tokens to 4 or 5. I also like the idea of a curser that "levels up" like City when a pile runs out, I think the original Young Witch did that? So maybe this could do something with that.

Yeti: The first version of this worked on Coppers, which was obviously silly but yeah this one is a bit similar to Giant. I have a different handsize attack in this expansion (I'll post some more cards in a few days probably) which I'm quite fond of, so I'll try to think of a better trashing attack for this first.

Venturer: Yes this should say "each" thanks for pointing that out Jimmmmm! Also you give me too much credit, moving Ice tokens around like that was not something I had thought of, I might have to steal that idea! Maybe Expedition Party would be a better name? Is Venturer even a word? I've only played this in Ice token heavy kingdoms so far so I need more of an idea how it performs on its own.

Ice Cave: So originally this was a cantrip, that was silly so I made it a Woodcutter but yeah increasing the tokens to 2 is a better starting place now that it's terminal.

Frozen Cache is a dud, but I thought it was cute so I thought I'd post it anyway. I do like Accatitippi's idea of making this an event though, but then I'd have to think up at least 9 other events for this set, so if I decide to do events then this could return in event form. I also blame Disney for making art for this so hard to find!

Frost Spirit: I for some reason totally blanked that this can also "trash" Provinces and the like. Hmm well it's not like broken trashers are a new thing to dominion so I'll leave this as is for now, it can specify non-Province or have a cost limit or something if that's a problem.

Citadel: This is the newest card here, it's just a simple card I had that I stuck the Ice token thing onto as a minor downside so it occasionally misses shuffles. It will probably be cut yeah.

Thanks for all the great feedback so far!
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ThetaSigma12

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #11 on: December 04, 2017, 09:49:51 pm »
+1

but then I'd have to think up at least 9 other events for this set,

Donald has said before that thinks 8 is the minimum for bringing back Landmarks/Events, so if you're going by normal dominion expansion standards you'd only need 7 more. But for a fanspansion, only 2-3 events is perfectly fine.
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Jimmmmm

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #12 on: December 04, 2017, 10:04:08 pm »
0

Also you give me too much credit, moving Ice tokens around like that was not something I had thought of, I might have to steal that idea!

Go ahead! I guess the next step would be giving them to or stealing them from the other players, although the risk with that would be that it would devolve into Ice token tennis or that you'd be able to keep your opponents' cards perpetually frozen.

Also I just realised you are not ashersky (Shanty Town avatar). I was surprised to see him post Dominion-related content.
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Fragasnap

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #13 on: December 05, 2017, 06:59:33 am »
+9

Ideally, Ice Tokens delay when cards are added to your deck. If, however, you don't shuffle between a card being set aside with Ice Tokens and the last Ice Token is removed, the cool Ice effect is moot (which you point out yourself, I realize).  I believe that the fact that Ice Tokens are removed every turn results in a lot of token bloat and ultimately makes the cards' effects less predictable.
Yeti can't even guarantee that a card it Ices even misses the shuffle.  Frost Spirit has to use a million Ice Tokens to have any chance of affecting the game.

I might try removing an Ice Token each shuffle instead of every turn to smooth out the effect. It will make deck size more of a factor, but I think will generally solve more headaches in terms of card power and component count.

I think the idea of Ice tokens is very cool. And I like a lot of the card concepts. I do think that instead of having 11 cards that use them, you'd be better served focusing on 5 or 6 of the simplest and best ones.
I disagree with this. I think that aiming for 11 cards will be easy if the concept is good. Having only the most basic card functions covered by 5 or 6 cards would be kind of a bummer.
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #14 on: December 05, 2017, 10:24:34 am »
+3

I agree with Fragasnap; remove ice on shuffle. You may need to rebalance quantities of ice in order to do this (e.g. Ice Witch, 2 instead of 3.)

Also, what happens to frozen cards when the game ends? Do you gain them or lose them?
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pacovf

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #15 on: December 05, 2017, 10:33:19 am »
0

Well, if it's once per turn, it affects draw-your-deck engines more than it affects slogs, on average. If it's per shuffle, it's basically the same for both. So it depends on what you are going for.

Also, what happens to frozen cards when the game ends? Do you gain them or lose them?

Set aside cards are still considered part of your deck, so you keep them.
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ipofanes

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #16 on: December 05, 2017, 10:39:02 am »
+2

No one commented on the artwork before? It's stunning!
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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #17 on: December 05, 2017, 10:47:22 am »
0

I might try removing an Ice Token each shuffle instead of every turn to smooth out the effect. It will make deck size more of a factor, but I think will generally solve more headaches in terms of card power and component count.

Oh boy, sloggy games would be unbearable. 
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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #18 on: December 05, 2017, 11:57:30 am »
+1

I like the ice token idea, and these are good cards.

Snow Hag - It does seem a bit similar to Witch, but definitely worth trying.  To make it more different from Witch, it might be enough to just increase the number of ice tokens, and think of it as a mid-game curser that you play in the early game.  You could also have it put more ice tokens on opponents' curses, so that you have a choice of either cursing them quickly or cursing them more.

Yeti - I think it would be better if the ice attack were more reliable, maybe even 100% reliable.  For example, you could have it search the top 3 cards, and let you choose which one to freeze.  I'm thinking that if you had a trashing attack that searched the top 3 cards of opponent's decks, that would be abusive.  But with ice tokens, maybe you can do it without it being abusive.

Venturer - I don't like the idea of an action that thaws out cards, or which moves ice tokens around.  That's in the category of abilities that only synergize within the set, and which are mostly pointless when surrounded by other cards.  To me, the bigger idea here is a lab that gains you Copper.  I don't think I would ever get this without Copper trashing.  Although maybe late in the game I'd get some for reliability.

Rediscover - Looks good.  It remodels into province even better than Expand does, but it still doesn't seem broken to me.  If the strength is an issue, you could try excepting victory cards.

Mountain Village - I'm wondering if sometimes the correct strategy is to rush these.  Just buy or gain a whole bunch, and they'll get shuffled into your deck by the time you need them.  And if your opponent chose not to rush Mountain Villages, you just buy more so that your deck is filled with Baker-Bazaars.  This isn't obvious to me, and maybe it's not bad if true.  But I think $2 is too cheap.

Glacier - This looks really strong to me, especially with trash for benefit like remodel.  I'd watch out for stockpile strategies that do nothing but gain lots of coin tokens.

Frost Spirit - This looks good, but I'm thinking there are other ways to pseudotrash that might be interesting to try.  For example, part of the problem with Lookout is that people are afraid of forced trashing, but with Ice tokens you don't care as much.  You could also have something that pseudotrashes on gain.  Or something that freezes itself along with a bunch of other cards, kind of like Crypt.
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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #19 on: December 05, 2017, 12:33:34 pm »
+4

I might try removing an Ice Token each shuffle instead of every turn to smooth out the effect. It will make deck size more of a factor, but I think will generally solve more headaches in terms of card power and component count.

Define "shuffle". If you have one card in your discard pile and then have to draw/reveal/etc., is that a "shuffle"? What if you have zero cards?
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Gazbag

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #20 on: December 05, 2017, 01:14:09 pm »
+2

I might try removing an Ice Token each shuffle instead of every turn to smooth out the effect. It will make deck size more of a factor, but I think will generally solve more headaches in terms of card power and component count.

Define "shuffle". If you have one card in your discard pile and then have to draw/reveal/etc., is that a "shuffle"? What if you have zero cards?

Yeah I did think of tying them to shuffles but it doesn't really get rid of the problems, it just changes the problems. It isn't obvious in cases like this whether you've shuffled. It can also lead to problems when you draw your deck because you can gain and draw mid-turn and potentially trigger multiple shuffles in one turn which seems a bit against the spirit of the idea. It's also much easier to forget as shuffles can trigger at many different times during your turn and even during your opponents turn. So I'd say it introduces more problems than it fixes.

The idea with Venturer is that it's interesting by itself, with Coppers like a time bomb ticking down and Venturer speeding up the count and even more interesting with other Ice token cards. Kinda like how Butcher is interesting by itself and is even better with other Coin token cards.

I'm going to try a Yeti that reveals until it finds an action and Freezes that for 3 tokens. The increased cycling of the opponents deck should make them shuffle a bit more often which will hopefully make the attack hurt more.

Mountain Village, or the card that freezes itself when you gain it which is the main concept here (probably won't look like Mountain Village in the end!) wants to cost $2 so you can always open with it I feel. So the thing to tweak would be Ice token numbers or weaken the effect in a different way.  Swapping the Coin token and the +1 Card might make it a bit different to regular villages.
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sprocket science

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #21 on: December 05, 2017, 02:13:36 pm »
0

I really like your idea as well. It's a mechanic with many interesting possibilities. It also works nicely thematically.

My first reaction was also that you should remove an ice token per shuffle, not per turn. When you draw your deck, that may be equivalent. But in sloggy games, the difference is quite significant. Freezing a card (I like the wording proposed by pacovf) only really has an effect at all if you can make it miss a shuffle, i.e. by freezing it right before a shuffle, by putting enough ice tokens on it, or by cycling quickly and shuffling often. So in sloggy games, freezing would hardly ever do anything. As is, the ice tokens mostly reward fast cycling, at the cost of making cards like Ice Cave pointless if that is not possible. Changing the mechanic to 'per shuffle' would definitely change the balance how many ice tokens certain cards should give, though.

I agree there are mechanical problems. I think a shuffle can be defined as 'trying to draw a card when your Deck is empty', which deals with the 'no cards' edge case. But it should be limited to at most one thawing per turn, so the rule would need to be 'Once per turn, when you try to draw a card when your Deck is empty, remove one ice token from each card' or  'When you try to draw a card when your Deck is empty, remove one ice token from each card if you haven't already this turn'. It doesn't go on a card, so can be wordy...

I noticed another point: Is freezing a card good or bad for you? With Glacier, Ice Cave, Frost Spirit, and (unless you have really good trashing) Snow Hag, freezing the cards is good for you, because it delays junk from entering your hand. With Cold Storage, Frozen Cache, and Citadel, it is meant to delay the gaining, and so is bad for you. In itself, that is fine, but if you add a card like Venturer that accelerates the thawing, it becomes an issue. On Venturer, the accelerated thawing out of the coppers is meant as a punishment, but if you combine Venturer with the delayed gainers, it suddenly becomes a reward. You could argue that makes the mechanic more interesting and gives more tactical options, but I think I like it better as a force of nature that cannot be affected directly.

BTW, the concept brought to mind the delay mechanic proposed here http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16895, which is only about delayed gaining, though. The ice token idea is more flexible, allowing different delays, and also enables 'frost spiriting' away cards you already have. But still, some of the card ideas might carry over.

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #22 on: December 05, 2017, 02:50:49 pm »
0

I might try removing an Ice Token each shuffle instead of every turn to smooth out the effect. It will make deck size more of a factor, but I think will generally solve more headaches in terms of card power and component count.

Define "shuffle". If you have one card in your discard pile and then have to draw/reveal/etc., is that a "shuffle"? What if you have zero cards?

Didn't Donald eventually end up answering this question; after several pages of debate? I can't remember what the response was though.
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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #23 on: December 05, 2017, 03:31:47 pm »
0

I might try removing an Ice Token each shuffle instead of every turn to smooth out the effect. It will make deck size more of a factor, but I think will generally solve more headaches in terms of card power and component count.

Define "shuffle". If you have one card in your discard pile and then have to draw/reveal/etc., is that a "shuffle"? What if you have zero cards?

Didn't Donald eventually end up answering this question; after several pages of debate? I can't remember what the response was though.

Exactly. I can't remember either. And maybe that itself is a problem.
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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #24 on: December 05, 2017, 05:37:27 pm »
0

I might try removing an Ice Token each shuffle instead of every turn to smooth out the effect. It will make deck size more of a factor, but I think will generally solve more headaches in terms of card power and component count.

Define "shuffle". If you have one card in your discard pile and then have to draw/reveal/etc., is that a "shuffle"? What if you have zero cards?

Didn't Donald eventually end up answering this question; after several pages of debate? I can't remember what the response was though.

Exactly. I can't remember either. And maybe that itself is a problem.

Found it! The rule is tentatively that you can shuffle 1 card. Shuffling 0 cards isn't discussed; I think the assumption is that you can't do that. But I agree that it's a rule people shouldn't have to know.  Plus I don't think we want to gives reasons that draw-your-deck engines should be even stronger. Actually, if done in the right type of engine; you can shuffle multiple times per turn, which would make Ice cards even stronger.
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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #25 on: December 05, 2017, 05:48:48 pm »
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Actually, if done in the right type of engine; you can shuffle multiple times per turn, which would make Ice cards even stronger.

Yeah, because of this and because of junky slog decks, I think ice should be once per turn as Gazbag originally suggested. There are still little loopholes like mission, outpost, and possession, but that shouldn't really be a problem.
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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #26 on: December 05, 2017, 05:52:57 pm »
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Actually, if done in the right type of engine; you can shuffle multiple times per turn, which would make Ice cards even stronger.

Yeah, because of this and because of junky slog decks, I think ice should be once per turn as Gazbag originally suggested. There are still little loopholes like mission, outpost, and possession, but that shouldn't really be a problem.

Yeah I think it's better that it works with Outpost; etc.. it's just another combo that works to make Outpost different than "+3 cards, +1 buy".
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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #27 on: December 05, 2017, 06:43:47 pm »
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A compromise option would be once per shuffle with a maximum of one per turn. It's less elegant, though. And "at the end of your turn, if you shuffled this turn", which is more or less the same but prevents any gain-and-remove-ice shenanigans - is even less elegant.
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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #28 on: December 05, 2017, 06:54:32 pm »
+1

a lot of token bloat
I could imagine a mat being used instead, with numbered spaces 1-6, and cards move along the mat toward 0 as they get more thawed.
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Yeti can't even guarantee that a card it Ices even misses the shuffle.
Perhaps if cards were put on top of your deck instead of your discard pile after thawing, that'd be more consistent.
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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #29 on: December 05, 2017, 07:08:20 pm »
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Actually, if done in the right type of engine; you can shuffle multiple times per turn, which would make Ice cards even stronger.

Yeah, because of this and because of junky slog decks, I think ice should be once per turn as Gazbag originally suggested. There are still little loopholes like mission, outpost, and possession, but that shouldn't really be a problem.

I really don't understand your argument concerning junky slog decks. Until the reshuffle, it makes very little difference whether a card is iced or in my discard pile. In a slog, it takes many turns from one reshuffle to the next, so most ice token effects, maybe apart from Frost Spirit and Frozen Cache itself, are likely to miss it, which makes them completely pointless (except perhaps the coin tokens from Mountain Village). 'Once per shuffle' would power up Ice Cave, Glacier, and Frost Spirit in slog decks! On the gainers, it would be hard, admittedly.

When using 'once per shuffle', Snow Hag should probably only give one token, though, Rediscover would give 0,1, and 2 tokens, and Frost Spirit maybe 2 or 3.


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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #30 on: December 05, 2017, 07:13:03 pm »
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A compromise option would be once per shuffle with a maximum of one per turn. It's less elegant, though. And "at the end of your turn, if you shuffled this turn", which is more or less the same but prevents any gain-and-remove-ice shenanigans - is even less elegant.

I think 'Once per turn, when you try to draw a card when your Deck is empty, remove one ice token from each card' or  'When you shuffle, remove one ice token from each card if you haven't already this turn' are both reasonably elegant.
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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #31 on: December 05, 2017, 07:17:41 pm »
+4

Rediscover
Again I'm not particularly happy with the name - it's hard to think of so many ice themed things! This is a cheap expand but the gained card is delayed based upon how much more expensive it was than the trashed card. Gain and play shenanigans are hard to do with this but trashing $5's into set aside Provinces might be too good, so this might have to be limited to gaining non-victory cards.

As the freezing is meant as a punishment (to make the card cheaper), instead of limiting the gaining to non-victory cards, you could limit the freezing to non-victory cards.
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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #32 on: December 05, 2017, 11:21:06 pm »
+1

A compromise option would be once per shuffle with a maximum of one per turn. It's less elegant, though. And "at the end of your turn, if you shuffled this turn", which is more or less the same but prevents any gain-and-remove-ice shenanigans - is even less elegant.

I think 'Once per turn, when you try to draw a card when your Deck is empty, remove one ice token from each card' or  'When you shuffle, remove one ice token from each card if you haven't already this turn' are both reasonably elegant.

The first one doesn't work because of various other things that cause you to shuffle other than drawing (Lookout, Navigator, etc).

I think once per turn is much better, both for complexity and for balance. If the cards are too strong due to coming out too fast, you can increase the number of tokens.
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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #33 on: December 06, 2017, 12:30:30 am »
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Actually, if done in the right type of engine; you can shuffle multiple times per turn, which would make Ice cards even stronger.

Yeah, because of this and because of junky slog decks, I think ice should be once per turn as Gazbag originally suggested. There are still little loopholes like mission, outpost, and possession, but that shouldn't really be a problem.

I really don't understand your argument concerning junky slog decks. Until the reshuffle, it makes very little difference whether a card is iced or in my discard pile. In a slog, it takes many turns from one reshuffle to the next, so most ice token effects, maybe apart from Frost Spirit and Frozen Cache itself, are likely to miss it, which makes them completely pointless (except perhaps the coin tokens from Mountain Village). 'Once per shuffle' would power up Ice Cave, Glacier, and Frost Spirit in slog decks! On the gainers, it would be hard, admittedly.

When using 'once per shuffle', Snow Hag should probably only give one token, though, Rediscover would give 0,1, and 2 tokens, and Frost Spirit maybe 2 or 3.

I guess you're mostly right.  Although in the case of citadel, I would never buy it in a slog.  I won't ever get to see it.
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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #34 on: December 06, 2017, 04:28:04 am »
+1

Gazbag, I really, really like your Ice token mechanic, and I think you succeeded in implementing it in simple yet compelling cards. Design-wise, I like them all; they mostly require some balancing. And they look great!
I'm not decided whether I prefer Ice tokens to be removed each turn or after shuffling, so I'm going to evaluate your cards with the mechanic as-is, for now. My general stance is that few Ice tokens on gained cards will rarely make a considerable difference so I'll often advocate more tokens.

Snow Hag: I don't think the similarity to Witch is a problem, as many official cards are redundant as well. But the Curse needs to come with at least 4 Ice tokens so it's guaranteed to miss the opponent's shuffle even if SH is played in turn 3. Otherwise it's just too strong for $4. Even then, looking at Young Witch, SH would probably require an additional nerf to justify the cheap cost.
She doesn't look like a hag at all but in case you named her this way to account for Asper's and my fan card Snow Witch, that's appreciated ;)

Yeti: Ice tokens seem like the perfect solution to make a vicious trashing attack acceptable. I suggest you make Yeti a pure freezing attack (using Pacovf's terminology) to make the card more reliable and because you already have a curser in the set.

Venturer: Good idea in general but in it's current form I find Venturer too polarized (it's only good with strong trashing) so I would raise the cost and only make it give one or two Coppers. Also removing Ice tokens from other cards, with regards to some other Ice token cards as well as negative self-synergy, doesn't really seem like an upside on Venturer. That on top of an on-gain effect similar to Frozen Cache's (which I like more), makes me inclined to say, scratch Venturer (in its current form) from the set.

Rediscover: This combination of effects absolutely has to be in the set. But I fear rediscovering Provinces might be broken. Maybe not though, as one or two Ice tokens on a card often won't matter, unless you're drawing your deck each turn. I'm curious what you find in playtesting.

Mounain Village: Delayed gaining is not a huge enough downside to a card that self-synergizes to become a card better-than-Bazaar to justify a cost of $2. The concept by itself is great, it's just a matter of finding the right cost for this card.

Ice Cave: Again, cool idea but suboptimally implemented. In this case, it's terribly weak. Compare with Sacred Grove, and Ice Cave's benefit is even more marginal, so you can easily make it give +$3. Putting more Ice tokens on the Victory cards would be more interesting. Consider even 3 Ice tokens per card bought per Ice Cave in play, since you won't usually play more than two per turn.

Glacier: This looks ridiculous compared to Harem, but Harem sucks so who cares. It's a good concept but I would like it even more if it gave VP instead of coin tokens. That would incentivize you to green earlier than you normally would which is generally a good premise for strategically challenging cards. (The coin tokens incentivize it too but they make it much easier to continue greening in the late game which makes it too automatic in my opinion.)

Frozen Cache: The idea is cute so I don't care if it's actually weak or redundant. If it seems too weak and nobody buys it, try it at $5. That should be more appropriate.
The color pattern makes it look more like a Reserve.

Frost Spirit: I'm the minority here saying this card isn't actually that strong. My first impression was this should cost only $2! I realize it's quite good in a deck-drawing engine but it's pretty hard to build such a deck with this as the only support in the first place. How about this:
Quote
Frost Spirit, $4, Action: +2 Cards. +1 Action. Set aside a card from your hand with 4 Ice tokens on it.
This would be more akin to Secret Pasage; better at delaying junk but less flexible and synergistic with other cards.

Cold Storage: Another obvious concept that's just a matter of balancing. As usual, I think 2 Ice tokens are too few. Gaining $5-cost cards with a card cheaper than $5 is really powerful! Don't like the name in particular (perhaps something more Workshop-esque?).

Citadel: This seems like something Donald would do, just without the Ice token on it. Unlike many other commenters, I don't think you should get rid of it. But it definitely needs to come with more Ice tokens. Or consider setting it aside with an Ice token each time you discard it from play.
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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #35 on: December 06, 2017, 05:40:32 am »
0

Great idea!  I'm another person who thinks that cards should thaw once per shuffle, and that the number of tokens should be scaled down a bit to compensate.  Perhaps "after you form a deck from your discard pile" might be a better wording?  I'd also say that frozen cards shouldn't come into your deck at the end of the game, since it makes for more interesting decisions about when you think the game might end and it makes it less broken if you're Rediscovering Provinces.

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #36 on: December 06, 2017, 11:51:50 am »
0

A compromise option would be once per shuffle with a maximum of one per turn. It's less elegant, though. And "at the end of your turn, if you shuffled this turn", which is more or less the same but prevents any gain-and-remove-ice shenanigans - is even less elegant.

I think 'Once per turn, when you try to draw a card when your Deck is empty, remove one ice token from each card' or  'When you shuffle, remove one ice token from each card if you haven't already this turn' are both reasonably elegant.

The first one doesn't work because of various other things that cause you to shuffle other than drawing (Lookout, Navigator, etc).

You are right, it would have to be 'Once per turn, when you try to draw, reveal, or look at the top card of your Deck but your Deck is empty, remove one ice token from each card'. That was what I intended, but I got the terminology wrong... Or by avoiding terminology: 'Once per turn, when you try to pick up the top card of your Deck but your Deck is empty, remove one ice token from each card', but the former is probably better...

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #37 on: December 06, 2017, 12:20:08 pm »
+2

Yeah, just keep it at once per turn, and make sure the effects give an appropriate number of tokens so that it usually matters. Trying to trigger on shuffles is trouble.
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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #38 on: December 06, 2017, 05:48:32 pm »
0

I just want this idea to be in a real dominion expansion now
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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #39 on: December 06, 2017, 06:23:22 pm »
+1

Okay so I was thinking Frozen Cache can be easily turned into an Event and no current Events use Coin tokens or Ice tokens, so there should be enough design space for this expansion to have some Events. So here's an untested first draft idea I had of a new typoe of Event.

Escalating Events

So an idea I've seen pop up a few times is Traveller cards with some kind of condition that has to be reached in order to exchange. This is a cool idea, but I'm not a huge fan of it because Travellers are super high variance anyway - a Traveller missing the shuffle or Champion/Teacher being at the bottom of a shuffle can often decide a game and adding more stipulations to them compounds this problem. Events don't have this problem so much because you don't have to line up a specific card in your deck with whatever condition. Here is a quick example set of Events I cobbled together in about 20 minutes while watching TV - I'm not particularly thrilled with them but what do you think of the idea?







So the idea here is that at first you can only buy Fishing and meeting the condition "escalates" and lets you buy Tracking and then once you've tracked you can go Big Game Hunting - this would have to be tracked either with player tokens on the Event cards or by giving each player their own Event cards and you take the next step when you escalate.
On the Events themselves I like Tracking and it might work as the $2, Fishing is probably too easy to trigger with coppers and doesn't do enough and Big Game Hunting probably wants to be more generous because you have to unlock it.
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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #40 on: December 06, 2017, 06:29:54 pm »
0

Couldn't the last one just be "Hunting" to allow a better font size?
« Last Edit: December 06, 2017, 06:30:59 pm by ThetaSigma12 »
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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #41 on: December 07, 2017, 01:05:16 pm »
0

I agree with the others that Ice Tokens are a very cool idea, and practically all of the ideas in the OP are very simple and clever designs. You can be proud of this mechanic. However, as others already pointed out, the tokens are moot whenever they don't make a card miss a shuffle, and should therefore rather be removed on reshuffling (also it would be kind of annoying to miss a shuffle only by one token in a slog).

By the way, some of my earlier versions of Homunculus functioned in a way similar to Citadel, Frozen Cache or Mountain Village: Set it aside as you gain it, then put it in your discard pile once you shuffle. Of course tokens didn't make sense for just one card, but here it works out, and is worth the trouble of defining whether you can "shuffle" 1 or 0 cards. In the end, you could say something like "The first time in a turn your deck becomes empty". It excludes things like Inn (which btw. screwed over my wording with the old Homunculus version), but that is for the better, I think. Also, if your deck is already empty when you gain the card (for example because there is no deck), then the point where your deck became empty during your turn would have happened already, and you don't lose a token immediately. If your deck is 0 cards, you never lose tokens (booo), but as long as there's one card to discard and draw again, it would work just fine. It also works on opponents' turns, and I think Donate is the only case where it wouldn't work - but that can be stomached, I trust.

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #42 on: December 07, 2017, 01:23:47 pm »
+3

In the end, you could say something like "The first time in a turn your deck becomes empty".
It is my understanding of the Second Edition shuffling rules that this actually happens very rarely.
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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #43 on: December 07, 2017, 01:48:29 pm »
+6

In the end, you could say something like "The first time in a turn your deck becomes empty".
It is my understanding of the Second Edition shuffling rules that this actually happens very rarely.

Darn. This is why we can't have ice things.

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #44 on: December 07, 2017, 01:57:15 pm »
+2

That’s ok. “Once per turn, if your discard pile is empty, remove an Ice token from all your frozen cards.”
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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #45 on: December 07, 2017, 02:53:02 pm »
0

That’s ok. “Once per turn, if your discard pile is empty, remove an Ice token from all your frozen cards.”

I like it, except for the fact that when you buy a card with such a token, you can immediately remove one. That's why I wanted that "become" wording. Shouldn't that still work?

"When your discard pile becomes empty for the first time in a turn, remove an Ice token from each of your cards that has one."

Edit: Of course both wordings still allows for tricks with Inn or Watchtower, but I think you can let those slide.

Edit 2: Or just say "shuffle" and clarify in a FAQ whether you do or do not shuffle 1 card. I'd say you can shuffle 1 card (which I think is the official ruling) and can't shuffle 0 cards. I'd still suggest to limit it to once per turn, which should take out part of the relevance of whether you can shuffle 1 or 0 cards, either way.

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #46 on: December 07, 2017, 03:12:19 pm »
+1

Wouldn't you gain the card, then set it aside? That would make the discard pile "become" empty anyway.

Though I guess your wording is better anyway to avoid weirdness with having your deck empty while it's not your turn.
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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #47 on: December 07, 2017, 03:31:21 pm »
+4

I still think having the tokens melt once per turn is better.  I mean, engines don't need the additional advantage over money decks, do they? Plus, the wording would be much easier.
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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #48 on: December 07, 2017, 05:15:18 pm »
0

Love this idea!

I do notice that in a sense, Frozen Cache is inversely proportional to Glacier. The amount of happiness I get from having a newly purchased Victory set aside for 4 turns is going to be roughly equal to the amount of unhappiness I'm going to get from having my newly purchased Treasure set aside for 4 turns.

I personally think Frozen Cache is weak but isn't 100% worthless, because it is gaining you an insane amount of treasures, so there will be niche situations for it. I wonder if it may be fine at $5 (still weak, but fine).

I do think Glacier is a bit too good. A 4 turn delay on a VP entering your deck and a free coin token every* turn feels a bit much. I think it would honestly be good if it were modified to something like "When you gain this, set it aside with 4 Ice Tokens on it. When all of the Ice Tokens have been removed from this, take 2 Coin tokens". That said, Glacier may be my favorite card of the lot. I love alt-VP, and this is a neat concept.
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ConMan

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #49 on: December 07, 2017, 05:40:38 pm »
+2

I think per turn is fine. Slog decks don't really need a system to keep them from bloating because that's the point of them, and I don't like the idea that you could game the thawing with an empty deck and a bunch of Secret Passages.
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ThetaSigma12

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #50 on: December 07, 2017, 06:03:29 pm »
+2

I'm just going to point out that you can (somewhat) control and track when you shuffle your deck. If you do it at the start of your turn there is strategic play in when to gain Venturer or Mountain Village, and even more strategy when comboed with Secret Passage or something.
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spiralstaircase

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #51 on: December 08, 2017, 06:51:49 am »
+3

Agreed - the control you have over shuffling would make it a more interesting mechanic to play with.

I'd also point out that if you do have a deck which draws itself often, then it's thematic that it should thaw out faster.  Industrialisation causing climate change!
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Asper

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #52 on: December 09, 2017, 08:28:02 am »
+3

I think per turn is fine. Slog decks don't really need a system to keep them from bloating because that's the point of them, and I don't like the idea that you could game the thawing with an empty deck and a bunch of Secret Passages.

Well, there's more than a fine line between "sleek engine that draws the deck" and "slog" in my opinion. I think the assumption that engines are basically always able to draw your deck is coming from the fact that many fds posters play almost exclusively 2P games, and holds no water when applied generally.

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #53 on: December 09, 2017, 12:32:40 pm »
+3

I think the assumption that engines are basically always able to draw your deck is coming from the fact that many fds posters play almost exclusively 2P games, and holds no water when applied generally.

I was thinking the other day, we could make a drinking game out of the number of posts on f.ds that use the phrase "if you're already drawing your deck". It's definitely taken for granted, which may also have something to do with the fact that doing so has gotten easier over time, as later expansions have better enabled it by focusing more on Engines.

I personally always enjoy a good Slog or Big Money game, if only because Engine now feels like the norm. Variety is the spice of life. I kinda hope as time goes on, we get a bit more of Slog/BM in the card pool, just so drawing your deck isn't a no-brainer.

Also, I'll save Awaclus the trouble: "something something, 2P is the only mode that matters" ;)
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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #54 on: December 10, 2017, 07:58:45 am »
0

which may also have something to do with the fact that doing so has gotten easier over time, as later expansions have better enabled it by focusing more on Engines.

No, we have better enabled it by getting better at the game.
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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #55 on: December 10, 2017, 01:45:28 pm »
+2

which may also have something to do with the fact that doing so has gotten easier over time, as later expansions have better enabled it by focusing more on Engines.
No, we have better enabled it by getting better at the game.

Why not both? Hasn't Donald X stated that he's focused more on Engines than BM as time has moved on since they are more interesting?
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LastFootnote

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #56 on: December 10, 2017, 03:06:30 pm »
0

which may also have something to do with the fact that doing so has gotten easier over time, as later expansions have better enabled it by focusing more on Engines.
No, we have better enabled it by getting better at the game.

Why not both? Hasn't Donald X stated that he's focused more on Engines than BM as time has moved on since they are more interesting?

I don’t believe so. Maybe I’m misremembering.
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Gazbag

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #57 on: December 10, 2017, 03:33:25 pm »
0



Look everyone here's a new card! I made it extra big this time because there's only one. I did have some updates on some of the Ice token cards as well but I might have accidentally deleted them and have to mock them up again.
At first this was supposed to be an attack where you pay Coin tokens to make it better, but that was useless on it's own and broken with other Coin token cards. So now you just have to reach a threshold and it turns on the attack. I think this is a bit stronger than it looks as people generally underrate terminal Silvers (Bard and Tormentor spring to mind) and its bonus is quite a bit better than +$2, the Coin token really makes a difference.

I thought a picture would be easy to find for this but none of them had the right dimensions, I'm not particularly happy with this one but oh well.
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Asper

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #58 on: December 10, 2017, 07:14:54 pm »
+1

Uh, by the way, did you know about Snow Witch from Co0kieL0rd's and my Seasons expansion? It's based on the same Japanese folklore as your Snow Hag and just like it, is a cheaper Witch with delayed Cursing (though in a different way).



I guess great minds think alike :P

Gazbag

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #59 on: December 11, 2017, 09:52:16 am »
+1

Uh, by the way, did you know about Snow Witch from Co0kieL0rd's and my Seasons expansion? It's based on the same Japanese folklore as your Snow Hag and just like it, is a cheaper Witch with delayed Cursing (though in a different way).



I guess great minds think alike :P

Yeah I'd already designed and named Snow Hag, but I saw Snow Witch before I mocked it up. I made sure to use different art, even though yours clearly has the best art out there :). I definitely like yours better, although mine still needs lots more testing and tweaking so hopefully it'll end up in a similar place.
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Asper

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #60 on: December 11, 2017, 10:18:09 am »
+1

Uh, by the way, did you know about Snow Witch from Co0kieL0rd's and my Seasons expansion? It's based on the same Japanese folklore as your Snow Hag and just like it, is a cheaper Witch with delayed Cursing (though in a different way).

...

I guess great minds think alike :P

Yeah I'd already designed and named Snow Hag, but I saw Snow Witch before I mocked it up. I made sure to use different art, even though yours clearly has the best art out there :). I definitely like yours better, although mine still needs lots more testing and tweaking so hopefully it'll end up in a similar place.

I actually like the ice token mechanic a lot and it has the advantage you don't have to have that board. Moving the token each turn can be annoying. If you're just talking about art, I like yours, too. If I had known how dark the art we went for would look on a card, we might have decided for something else.

Hum... Considering Seasons is also based on turns instead of shuffles, perhaps ice tokens are fine as they are, after all. For cards like Snow Hag, you'd assume that getting the cards in the same shuffle wouldn't make much of a difference, either way, as then you'd already have to have a very bloated deck.

Gazbag

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #61 on: December 11, 2017, 12:04:38 pm »
+5

Uh, by the way, did you know about Snow Witch from Co0kieL0rd's and my Seasons expansion? It's based on the same Japanese folklore as your Snow Hag and just like it, is a cheaper Witch with delayed Cursing (though in a different way).

...

I guess great minds think alike :P

Yeah I'd already designed and named Snow Hag, but I saw Snow Witch before I mocked it up. I made sure to use different art, even though yours clearly has the best art out there :). I definitely like yours better, although mine still needs lots more testing and tweaking so hopefully it'll end up in a similar place.

I actually like the ice token mechanic a lot and it has the advantage you don't have to have that board. Moving the token each turn can be annoying. If you're just talking about art, I like yours, too. If I had known how dark the art we went for would look on a card, we might have decided for something else.

Hum... Considering Seasons is also based on turns instead of shuffles, perhaps ice tokens are fine as they are, after all. For cards like Snow Hag, you'd assume that getting the cards in the same shuffle wouldn't make much of a difference, either way, as then you'd already have to have a very bloated deck.

I was talking about card and art!

I meant to say a few words on the turns vs shuffles discussion actually. The main argument against turns is that if you don't shuffle while a card is frozen then it doesn't do anything, I don't think this is bad though - it can potentially make you reevaluate how good fast cycling/trashing is and change how you approach a board.

On the other hand, in order to have cards balanced properly if I change tokens to remove on shuffles then a lot of them will have to just have 1 or 2 tokens as missing 3 shuffles is really slow (especially in sloggier games) or have stronger effects to compensate. But what this means is that the cards would be stronger when you're going through your deck faster and if you're drawing deck every turn the the tokens might not matter at all, so it doesn't actually fix that problem in practice.

I like that having it be based on turns means the cards are weaker in stronger decks and stronger in weaker decks, because most cards are the other way around.
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loneXolf

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #62 on: December 12, 2017, 08:14:55 am »
+1

Snow Hag- looks pretty strong for a 4 cost, but sorta seems balanced.

Yeti- Looks balanced maybe a tad weak, decent knight clone.

Venturer- I really need to see this card in game with and without trashing to tell how strong it is. It could be broken, balanced, or maybe even bad. The cost of 2 could make some pretty broken 5/2 starts. Sentry, Venturer seems pretty good.

Rediscover- I am not sure if this card is different enough from expand to warrant it, seems better in a few ways as well. Not letting it gain victory cards would just make it bad.

Mountain Village- This card seems pretty bad if it's the only ice token card in a kingdom without +buys. The miss a deck cycle isn't that bad for a village but it forces you to buy it early, and you won't get too much out of the coin token effect without +buys.

Ice Cave- Isn't this just a woodcutter for 5? 1 ice token doesn't even guarantee that the victory card will miss one deck cycle.

Glacier- Seems pretty strong. Seems like a replacement duchy on turns you missed the province. However if you can get more than one of these out at once it could be too powerful, and you can just keep buying them.

Frozen Cache- I would say this is bad design, it's either 100% worse or better than buying a gold early and you won't buy it later in the game.

Frost Spirit- This card seems pretty weak to me, but I could be wrong. it's not benefiting buying power while not fully trashing cards. I would 100% buy a Spice Merchant over this early game.

Cold Storage- This card is probably too good since it can get duchies.

Citadel- Looks balanced to me, the 1 snow token doesn't look that impact full tho.

Overall I like the Ice Token idea, but not sure if it's interesting enough for card design.

Here is a random split pile ice token card idea I made on the spot.

Snowy mountain (Top of stack)-
Cost - 4
Type - Action
Effect - +2 Card +1 Action When you play this card set it aside and put two Ice tokens on it for each snowy mountain set aside.
Amount - 5

Avalanche (Bottom of stack)-
Cost - 5
Type - Action
Effect - +3 Coins Remove all Ice tokens from an a set aside card. If it the card had 4 or more Ice tokens, +1 Action.
Amount - 5

Asper

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #63 on: December 12, 2017, 09:51:44 am »
+1

Snowy mountain (Top of stack)-
Cost - 4
Type - Action
Effect - +2 Card +1 Action When you play this card set it aside and put two Ice tokens on it for each snowy mountain set aside.

I like the idea of an Ice Token card setting itself aside each play, but the split pile thing doesn't appeal to me.

Gazbag

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #64 on: December 12, 2017, 04:06:11 pm »
+3

Snowy mountain (Top of stack)-
Cost - 4
Type - Action
Effect - +2 Card +1 Action When you play this card set it aside and put two Ice tokens on it for each snowy mountain set aside.

I like the idea of an Ice Token card setting itself aside each play, but the split pile thing doesn't appeal to me.

I do have one in the file but it's action isn't particularly inspiring. I think Citadel might evolve into something using this mechanic though.
Thanks for the comments loneXolf, although  think some of your evaluations are way off :P. It's still good to know what is popular though so I'm taking everything on board.

Anyway here's some updates:

5 tokens means that if you get this turn 1 or 2 it'll miss the first 2 shuffles and also makes the Coin token slightly easier to trigger. I like that this is a village that you have to get earlier than you want, that makes it interesting to me but I'm a bit worried it won't be popular?


This was a bit too good. 6 tokens means this if you're player 1 and play this turn 3 the curse will enter your opponents deck on their turn 8. That seems more reasonable to me?

Venturer is scrapped for now because it's strange and doesn't seem popular, which isn't a winning combination.

Now for some new things- a few Coin token and off theme cards:


I like self scheming cards and Walled Village always missed the mark for me as the scheming village. $2 might not be enough so I'll have to try it at $3 if that's too good. Or make it so you have to pay for each Campsite individually perhaps, but that might need weird wording.


This seems like a well balanced simple thing, Pioneers are super-settlers right? It would probably be fine at $4, although a strong opening for sure. This seems like a nice on-gain ability that doesn't exist because overpay was in the only Coin token set (I assume).


One of those things that seemed simple in my head but was a bit of a nightmare to word on a card. Could this cost $2? The warning bar on the bottom of the art amuses me, so it's staying!


This is stronger then it looks, I promise! It's really quite flexible, although it's still not that strong maybe it should give +2 actions when you discard.


Reasonably sized Bandit repost because nobody talked about it yet.
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Jimmmmm

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #65 on: December 12, 2017, 05:41:28 pm »
+1


This is stronger then it looks, I promise! It's really quite flexible, although it's still not that strong maybe it should give +2 actions when you discard.

I actually think it looks very strong when you have Victory cards; Lab + Fugitive is a pretty good deal, with some flexibility to boot.
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Gazbag

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #66 on: December 12, 2017, 08:46:55 pm »
+5

I actually think it looks very strong when you have Victory cards; Lab + Fugitive is a pretty good deal, with some flexibility to boot.

Yeah the Victory is the key, without it it's a terrible Plaza thing.


I forgot about this one! This started out as a Coin token Salvager... that was outrageous so now it gives you a steady stream of tokens. Durations that stay out multiple turns are cool so that's great.
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trivialknot

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #67 on: December 12, 2017, 10:03:49 pm »
+2

The new cards are great.  I think it goes to show that if you can come up with the brilliant ice token mechanic, you can also come up with good cards that don't use it.

Mountain Village & Snow Hag - I like the changes.  My speculation, based on zero testing was that three ice tokens wasn't enough to weaken them, and I think upping the ice tokens makes them more balanced and interesting.

Campsite - Sounds like a very good village, competitive with Port or Worker's Village.  I don't think $2 or $3 makes a big difference.  Since the central concept is "a village that topdecks itself" rather than "village that makes you sacrifice $2", you could experiment with other conditions.  Like, what if it's a village that behaves just like Treasury.  Or maybe it topdecks itself only if you don't buy actions LOL.

Pioneer - I think this looks too strong to cost $4, especially with the on-gain bonus.  My main complaint about this is it seems a lot slower than Peddler, without being sufficiently different to justify it.

Sleigh - It's certainly very good in the early game, when most of your deck is copper.  And if you get 6+, it seems pretty strong, maybe on par with Herald.  I'm a bit worried that it would lead to a monolithic strategy--Herald wants to add terminal actions, but this card doesn't want you to add expensive cards.

Hunter - Funny thing about this is that you have to decide whether to discard an action or treasure before drawing 2 cards.  Looks fairly strong even with just the victory card part.

Barbarian - This doesn't look that strong, but here you say it's stronger than it looks.  Well color me surprised.  It looks worse than Butcher, but then Butcher is amazeballs, and Tragic Hero demonstrates that if you make a nerfed version of an amazing card it can come out pretty decent.  The attack could hurt, but opponents can see it coming a long ways, and can prepare for it by buying provinces.
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Accatitippi

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #68 on: December 13, 2017, 03:19:00 am »
+5

A possible solution to the once-per-shuffle problem is to add a Heirloom-like copper (or silver?) variant saying "When you play this, remove one ice token from all of your frozen cards, then if you removed the last ice token from any of them, put it in your discard pile".

The pros:
It doesn't need outside-card-text rules, or remembering to thaw at start of turn.
It has some cute interactions with stuff like Storyteller and Crown.
It's possibly more interesting, and gives you the ability to control your thawing rate.

The cons:
It can skip shuffles (but so can anything else)
It sort-of-breaks some cards in their current form (Snow Witch and Ice spirit, for example) and as they are now.
There are already 7 copper replacements.

But it's an interesting possibility.
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loneXolf

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #69 on: December 13, 2017, 03:50:16 am »
0

Ice tokens are a bit hard to judge without playing with them before.

Mountain village- The 5 ice tokens change seems to be focused on the coin ability giving it more self sustain and maybe to nerf buying multiple copies. Mountain village's bazaar effect seems most useful when spammed. However I can see 5 ice tokens making this card frustrating to buy when it's not early game.

Snow hag- Fair nerf. Still can't tell if a witch costing 4 is too good even with the 6 delayed turns for the curse.

Campsite- Seems like a more useful walled village in most cases. It's effect might make it too consistent.

Pioneer- Seems like a worse peddler, since you are limited to 7 copper(without gaining more) really makes this card not that spamable which is the best use of peddler. Making this compete with cards like market and bazaar which is really rough. The free coin token is nice for later turns and for on gain effects but is a overall weird choice for a on gain bonus for me.

Sleigh- This is such a strong early game card. Not a huge fan of the RNG factor. Seems a little bit similar to Chariot Race design except Sleigh works better with lower cost cards and is more controllable RNG. Sleight might be too good for 3.

Hunter- This card is all over the place for me. I need to see it in game, all of the discard sides seem a bit useful. Could be too strong or weak for 5. Turning any action into +2 actions is weird.

Barbarian- I think it's attack is too dependent on having other coin token gainers. 4 coin tokens is rough to get in one turn with just this card, and keeping 3 coin tokens turn to turn to trigger this attack seems weak.

Cargo Ship- Seems much slower and weaker than Glacier and looks weaker than remodel to me. Maybe I am missing something.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2017, 05:43:55 am by loneXolf »
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Accatitippi

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #70 on: December 13, 2017, 04:50:22 am »
0

Oh, and let me say that I really like Barbarian's concept, and Cargo Ship is also neat.
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Gazbag

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #71 on: December 13, 2017, 03:47:27 pm »
0

Well I have some free time so I guess I'll address a few things. Long post incoming!

Mountain village- The 5 ice tokens change seems to be focused on the coin ability giving it more self sustain and maybe to nerf buying multiple copies. Mountain village's bazaar effect seems most useful when spammed. However I can see 5 ice tokens making this card frustrating to buy when it's not early game.
So Mountain Village is a village instead of say some kind of payload card for a reason, the idea is that you have to buy them earlier than you would normally buy a village as this hopefully creates a unique and interesting play experience. The reward for having a frozen card then has the function of making them not so sad to buy later on too. With just 3 tokens it wasn't really delayed at all at the time you would usually consider buying a village so I upped the number of tokens to try and fix it. This also had the nice added effect of making the Coin token easier to get.

Pioneer- Seems like a worse peddler, since you are limited to 7 copper(without gaining more) really makes this card not that spamable which is the best use of peddler. Making this compete with cards like market and bazaar which is really rough. The free coin token is nice for later turns and for on gain effects but is a overall weird choice for a on gain bonus for me.
I mean there's only 10 in the pile y'know, getting 7 Pioneers seems rare. It's significantly better than Peddler until you trash Coppers - it's more like an Apothecary-lite, drawing the Coppers increases your handsize which is often important and increases cycling which is very important. It also removes Coppers from your deck so your other draw can pick up better cards. It's an early-mid game accelerator where as Peddler is a mid-late game payload card.

Sleigh- This is such a strong early game card. Not a huge fan of the RNG factor. Seems a little bit similar to Chariot Race design except Sleigh works better with lower cost cards and is more controllable RNG. Sleight might be too good for 3.
It's pretty much a worse Wishing Well as an opening, I don't really understand the RNG factor comment either. It seems worse than Wishing Well to me in general but I have been called Luckbag on numerous occasions, so maybe Wishing Well is worse for other people.

Barbarian- I think it's attack is too dependent on having other coin token gainers. 4 coin tokens is rough to get in one turn with just this card, and keeping 3 coin tokens turn to turn to trigger this attack seems weak.
The trick is that "+$1 take a Coin token" is decent anyway, probably a reasonable $3 cost. The attack is painful but can be hard to set up - kinda like Legionary.

Cargo Ship- Seems much slower and weaker than Glacier and looks weaker than remodel to me. Maybe I am missing something.
It has the magic words "trash a card" although I might try this at $4. I suspect that's too good in the opening though, maybe a bonus for trashing Coppers would be better.

Okay now onto trivalknot:

The new cards are great.  I think it goes to show that if you can come up with the brilliant ice token mechanic, you can also come up with good cards that don't use it.

Campsite - Sounds like a very good village, competitive with Port or Worker's Village.  I don't think $2 or $3 makes a big difference.  Since the central concept is "a village that topdecks itself" rather than "village that makes you sacrifice $2", you could experiment with other conditions.  Like, what if it's a village that behaves just like Treasury.  Or maybe it topdecks itself only if you don't buy actions LOL.
Thanks for the kind words  :)

Campsite is quite strong, but $2 is a real cost so it isn't an automatic decision, or maybe it is and I've been playing it wrong! It also rewards deck tracking but not in an annoying way in my opinion, which I enjoy but maybe other people don't? It's certainly got nothing on Minstrel or Port for sure though.

Pioneer - I think this looks too strong to cost $4, especially with the on-gain bonus.  My main complaint about this is it seems a lot slower than Peddler, without being sufficiently different to justify it.
Ah I meant $4 without the Coin token, I didn't make that clear but yeah I figured it would be on the high end of $4's - not Ironmonger level but still very good, that's why I put it at $5 with the Coin token thing. Hmmm it's certainly not as bad in that regard as Hunting Party is compared to Lab, but Hunting Party is miserable IRL so I'll have to think on it. I won't repeat myself about the Peddler comparison.

Sleigh - It's certainly very good in the early game, when most of your deck is copper.  And if you get 6+, it seems pretty strong, maybe on par with Herald.  I'm a bit worried that it would lead to a monolithic strategy--Herald wants to add terminal actions, but this card doesn't want you to add expensive cards.
At the end of the day it's still just a conditional Lab so it'll never be a (good) strategy by itself.

Hunter - Funny thing about this is that you have to decide whether to discard an action or treasure before drawing 2 cards.  Looks fairly strong even with just the victory card part.
I didn't think of that actually... would people like it more if the victory part was first? The victory part is where a lot of the strength comes from, it would be too similar to Shepherd without the other stuff though - I made this before Shepherd was released mind.

Barbarian - This doesn't look that strong, but here you say it's stronger than it looks.  Well color me surprised.  It looks worse than Butcher, but then Butcher is amazeballs, and Tragic Hero demonstrates that if you make a nerfed version of an amazing card it can come out pretty decent.  The attack could hurt, but opponents can see it coming a long ways, and can prepare for it by buying provinces.
Worse than the best $5 in dominion is a fine place to be :P. Tragic Hero is a really strong Gold gainer guys - comparing it to Margrave is a mistake (why am I derailing my own topic?) If I make my opponent buy Provinces prematurely then I'm very happy, Barbarian did his job!

Okay I got sidetracked at the end there, but thanks for the feedback!
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loneXolf

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #72 on: December 14, 2017, 02:08:00 am »
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I mean there's only 10 in the pile y'know, getting 7 Pioneers seems rare. It's significantly better than Peddler until you trash Coppers

Maybe it was more of a nitpick comment on the Pioneers. But my line of thought was that most of the time you would draw into copper(s) during the end of your turn limiting Pioneers spamability, pairing that with any amount of trashing and it could quickly turn into a card that you don't want many copies of. Which makes me think a vanilla peddler is better (Not counting the coin token effect).

It's pretty much a worse Wishing Well as an opening, I don't really understand the RNG factor comment either. It seems worse than Wishing Well to me in general but I have been called Luckbag on numerous occasions, so maybe Wishing Well is worse for other people.

Well wishing well has the same RNG factor of hitting a estate during it's first use which makes both of them way less impactful. But I do not see how Wishing Well is much better, Sleigh always has copper as a target and is much easier to build around later into the game. However I am assuming that Sleigh is a pretty decent card to spam which is where I am drawing most of it's power, which I might be wrong on.

It has the magic words "trash a card" although I might try this at $4. I suspect that's too good in the opening though, maybe a bonus for trashing Coppers would be better.

I don't think the strength of this card is in trashing starter cards. Having multiple of these out at once seems like the most ideal use of this card to me, which is why I compared it to glacier. The best normal target for this card seems to be estate like most other Remodel clones, however remodel itself gains you a 4 or lower costed card while cargo ship just gives you 2 coin tokens over two turns and most of the time they both trash coppers for nothing. But on the other hand, trashing high valued cards for cargo ship seems too slow for me unless you have a strong gainer. Even degenerate combos such as rats and fortress could be done better with remodel, apprentice, etc since they're not duration cards. Idk maybe I am just seeing this card under a bad light.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2017, 02:09:34 am by loneXolf »
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Gazbag

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #73 on: December 14, 2017, 05:30:14 pm »
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I mean there's only 10 in the pile y'know, getting 7 Pioneers seems rare. It's significantly better than Peddler until you trash Coppers

Maybe it was more of a nitpick comment on the Pioneers. But my line of thought was that most of the time you would draw into copper(s) during the end of your turn limiting Pioneers spamability, pairing that with any amount of trashing and it could quickly turn into a card that you don't want many copies of. Which makes me think a vanilla peddler is better (Not counting the coin token effect).

I don't want this to become a generic strategy discussion, but this is a terrible way to evaluate cards. Pioneer is better than Peddler in some situations and worse in others, more importantly though they have different roles in deckbuilding. The main problem I have with Pioneer is that it can take a while to resolve - especially if you trash your Coppers and it becomes a cantrip Chancellor, which can lead to multiple shuffles per turn.

It's pretty much a worse Wishing Well as an opening, I don't really understand the RNG factor comment either. It seems worse than Wishing Well to me in general but I have been called Luckbag on numerous occasions, so maybe Wishing Well is worse for other people.

Well wishing well has the same RNG factor of hitting a estate during it's first use which makes both of them way less impactful. But I do not see how Wishing Well is much better, Sleigh always has copper as a target and is much easier to build around later into the game. However I am assuming that Sleigh is a pretty decent card to spam which is where I am drawing most of it's power, which I might be wrong on.

You can wish for more than Copper with Wishing Well, the first Sleigh is just Wishing Well for Copper. The RNG isn't really any more than you're average card, perhaps it's a bit more in your face though. When you start chaining multiple Sleighs together the first few are very unlikely to trigger as you are likely to be trashed down if you're lining up so many Sleighs. I'm not saying it's a weak card but it seems very similar to Wishing Well to me - Wishing Well is very strong mind. My main disagreement with you was when you said it was such a good early game card.

It has the magic words "trash a card" although I might try this at $4. I suspect that's too good in the opening though, maybe a bonus for trashing Coppers would be better.

I don't think the strength of this card is in trashing starter cards. Having multiple of these out at once seems like the most ideal use of this card to me, which is why I compared it to glacier. The best normal target for this card seems to be estate like most other Remodel clones, however remodel itself gains you a 4 or lower costed card while cargo ship just gives you 2 coin tokens over two turns and most of the time they both trash coppers for nothing. But on the other hand, trashing high valued cards for cargo ship seems too slow for me unless you have a strong gainer. Even degenerate combos such as rats and fortress could be done better with remodel, apprentice, etc since they're not duration cards. Idk maybe I am just seeing this card under a bad light.

Trashing your starting cards is amazing, so yes that is where a lot of strength comes from, although this is very inefficient at it. I think I agree with you that this is a little tame in it's current form but it's not terrible, it would certainly be too good at $4, Coin tokens are really strong! This is more of a Salvager than a Remodel though, that's what it started out as at least. Also Remodel has to gain a card, so it can't trash Coppers for nothing. Hmm being weaker than Apprentice is a place most cards want to be, I think.
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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #74 on: December 17, 2017, 02:43:21 am »
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I wanted to suggest to give +2 Actions, +2$ and +2 Cards as the bonuses for Hunter, as an extension of Ironwork's theme... Then I realized that it becomes kind of similar to Ironmonger. Ah well.

For my Heir, I put the draw first to give it a buff, but it doesn't normally draw, so it needed that. Also for Heir, it's risky. I would just make it depend on how strong the card seems in the end, but yes, draw first seems "logical" in a way.

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #75 on: December 17, 2017, 02:57:34 pm »
+1

I wish I had found earlier the leisure to comment on the second batch of cards you posted. You set high standards for yourself with the first bunch and the others don't disappoint!

Mountain Village
and Snow Hag: Good to see you're taking other people's criticism into account. These are reasonable nerfs. With this many Ice tokens, MV and Curses, respectively, should be almost guaranteed to miss the shuffle which I think was neccessary to balance these cards.

Campsite: A clever Village variant. I'm surprised this doesn't exist, yet. The reason might be that this is crazy in any engine that draws the deck, though it's only marginally useful while you're still building it. A ways to circumvent this, which I'm sure has been suggested already, is to make you pay $1 or $2 per Campsite you want to topdeck. As another note, this fits very well in a Coin token-based expansion.

Pioneer: This card is fine and balanced but, as you pointed out, might result in too much searching and shuffling. You could always just row back and turn this into an actual Peddler with the on-gain effect. This would be a definitive buff as it would allow you to trash your Coppers. Since searching for Coppers could quickly become annoying, and for the sake of simplicity, I'd say just make it a Peddler.

Sleigh: A cute card that starts out worse than Wishing Well but gets better the more you play in a row. That said, you pretty much commit to Sleighs when you start buying them. That means there will be games where it's not worth going for them at all, and that's fine for a $3-cost card, which they can't all be the best, anyway.

Hunter: I don't know. It seems convoluted and could use some paragraphs. It should say "You may discard a Treasure." Now onto the bonuses; they're hard to assess. Discarding an Action for +1 Action seems like it will be a mistake too often, especially considering you may discard a Victory card last. Hunter is expensive so that should be the first thing you do. It's not like the other two bonuses are particularly strong, either.

Barbarian: I like the idea a lot but the card is weak as-is. Without the attack it would be fine, probably a bit too weak for $4. But to use the attack you need to save 4 Coin tokens which means you basically played 4 terminal Coppers (the fourth with an attack attached that's random and mediocre)! You could try it at $3 or reduce the number of Coin tokens needed for the attack. With enough playtesting you should get this unique concept to work out.

Cargo Ship: Another clever idea but, alas, weak again. The only way this is better than Salvager is it gives Coin tokens instead of $. But they are delayed, Cargo Ship doesn't have +buy, Salvager is faster at spiking high-cost targets and trashes more often, except if you only trash $0-cost cards with Cargo Ship (which would be terribly slow). This needs a vanilla bonus (I suggest +1 Card, +1 Action) to be any good. Alternatively, it could cost $4 but then it would still only situationally be viable, and ignorable in many Kingdoms.
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Gazbag

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #76 on: December 17, 2017, 07:07:44 pm »
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Okay here's a new thing and some changes/updates/thoughts. I've updated the OP with stuff too.

Seer

Here it is the Seer, now the on play effect is very similar to Barbarian, but I have a new Barbarian because the old one wasn't going down well. So hopefully this is a bit better. When you pay the tokens you only add Ice tokens to your Avalanche, if that wasn't clear.

Avalanche


Yep there it is, Avalanches are very similar to Saboteurs it turns out. 15 seems like a good number for Avalanche, not too fast that it becomes oppressive every time and not too slow as to never matter. There are also ways to make this hurt not so much, mainly just gaining expendable cards, Silver gainers and stuff like that. I'm using Violet CLM's image generator for these which doesn't have a template for States, so sorry about that.

New Barbarian


Okay so Barbarian is now a Coin token Oasis. That is very probably too good for $4, but maybe it's borderline? It could have an on-gain penalty maybe if it's a little too powerful. It should be much easier to get the attack going now that it's non-terminal. Also a note that I think I forgot to mention before is that this particular attack is very devastating early on, when your hands are basically one $3-$4 card and Estates/Copper. Which is the logic behind why I chose this particular attack to be delayed by the tokens like this.

Cargo Ship buff


Cargo ship was on the weak side, but was in an awkward position where it was a bit too good at $4 so I made it a little better at trashing Coppers.

Igloo

This snowy themed expansion needs an Igloo right? It was surprisingly hard to find a picture actually. This is a pretty simple idea, although as usual the wording sucks. This is isn't the best thing ever but it's not too bad, I've had it since before Nocturne but forgot to post it earlier, I now worry that Tracker is a bit similar to this and more exciting with the Boons.

Hunter
I'm not overly pleased with Hunter at the moment, perhaps switching the bonuses would make it better. Action for +2 cards, Treasure for +1 action and Victory for Coin token. Discarding an action for +1 action does rub me the wrong way a bit and currently hunter is terrible without a Victory card. We'll have to see, I worry that it'd be hard to remember which goes with which if they're switched like that though.

@Co0kieL0rd: Thanks for the post! I agree with most of what you said - hopefully you like the changes I made this time. Apart from cantrip Cargo Ship, that'd be cwazy! Oh and I'm thinking of making Pioneer blow itself up for a Coin token if it fails to find a Copper - the Copper searching is functionally quite different to just a Peddler and it is a great subtle effect so It'd be a shame for it to die due to physical issues. But at same time I'm of the opinion that Hunting Party was a mistake and isn't worth the hassle so I guess that's still on the cards for sure.

Ah yes I almost forgot Venturer and Ice Cave have been retired for now, Venturer was strange and not very popular so I figured it should go and Ice Cave wasn't very interesting. Cold storage and Rediscover will get more attention soon.
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loneXolf

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #77 on: December 17, 2017, 07:38:42 pm »
+1

Avalanche- Please make Avalanche not able to target victory cards, this card being able to trash provinces triggers me. Also I don't think this card has to always hit to be scary/destructive, the constant trashing of cards could make decks not improve well without gain effects or +buys. Seems like a cute card though, I really want to see this card in game to see how it plays out.

Seer- The one to one ratio for coin to ice tokens doesn't seem that effective. Maybe just allow a maximum of 1 coin token to be spent for 2 ice tokens. I like it more than the old Barbarian though.

Barbarian- Not really a huge fan of Oasis clones since Oasis has the perfect cost for it's effect. It's hard to tell how good this card is, playing 4 of them in one turn still seems a bit rough. But it's much easier to pull off that the last version of barbarian. Would need to see it in game. The coin token effect on Oasis is probably good enough for the cost of 4 already.

Cargo Ship- Very helpful buff but I don't see this card being bought over most other trashers. The cost of 5 while trashing not that effectively with the slowness of the coin tokens are both it's main weaknesses for me. But this buff looks sorta nice on paper.

Igloo- Text seems a bit off on this card. But hot damn this card seems extremely good, quickly getting yourself just bought cards while netting you a card for the next turn? This could maybe cost 5.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2017, 07:58:39 pm by loneXolf »
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Gazbag

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #78 on: December 21, 2017, 05:31:28 pm »
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Avalanche- Please make Avalanche not able to target victory cards, this card being able to trash provinces triggers me. Also I don't think this card has to always hit to be scary/destructive, the constant trashing of cards could make decks not improve well without gain effects or +buys. Seems like a cute card though, I really want to see this card in game to see how it plays out.

Hahaha better get some Seers if you wanna keep your Provinces. Seriously though, I haven't tested this yet, I rarely have Provinces in my deck but I'll see if a more sane player hates that in testing. I want Avalanche to be nasty though.

Seer- The one to one ratio for coin to ice tokens doesn't seem that effective. Maybe just allow a maximum of 1 coin token to be spent for 2 ice tokens. I like it more than the old Barbarian though.

Yeah this is something to keep an eye on, I haven't yet had chance to actually test Seer/Avalanche so I don't yet know how well it works.

Barbarian- Not really a huge fan of Oasis clones since Oasis has the perfect cost for it's effect. It's hard to tell how good this card is, playing 4 of them in one turn still seems a bit rough. But it's much easier to pull off that the last version of barbarian. Would need to see it in game. The coin token effect on Oasis is probably good enough for the cost of 4 already.

The idea of Barbarian was that you have to choose between using the Coin tokens and using the attack, you don't use up the Coin tokens to do the attack so once you have a stockpile of 3 tokens the attack will always trigger because Barbarian adds the 4th itself. You don't have to play 4 in one turn. Coin token Oasis is probably on the strong side for $4 anyway so I'll have to keep a close eye on this one.

Cargo Ship- Very helpful buff but I don't see this card being bought over most other trashers. The cost of 5 while trashing not that effectively with the slowness of the coin tokens are both it's main weaknesses for me. But this buff looks sorta nice on paper.

I think you're underestimating the Coin tokens a little bit - getting a Coin token at the start of your turn is like playing a Baker, a decent $5 card. Anyway I understand that this isn't a powerhouse and trashers are often on the strong side of things so I'm relatively happy with where this is at the moment.

Igloo- Text seems a bit off on this card. But hot damn this card seems extremely good, quickly getting yourself just bought cards while netting you a card for the next turn? This could maybe cost 5.
I'm not happy with the wording on this, but it gets the intent of the card across so it's okay for now. Eh I'm not sure this is that hot? (I guess Igloos are hot inside?) It doesn't seem amazing compared to Tracker, it only works on one card and only on cards you buy. The effective +1 card next turn is nice though but I don't think it makes up for Royal Seal's non-terminalness either so I'm not seeing this at $5. Maybe it'll end up at $4 though if double Igloo openings are crazy.

Anyway thanks for the comments again, you've helped me quite a bit so far  :)


Edit: Woops I forgot, here's a thing.



I've realised recently that I love Copper gaining and Venturer didn't work out so maybe this new Citadel is more interesting. I think I fluffed the wording on the below the line but oh well. Is it too harsh? Not harsh enough? Too boring? Too exciting?
« Last Edit: December 21, 2017, 06:02:52 pm by Gazbag »
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loneXolf

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #79 on: December 21, 2017, 08:49:07 pm »
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Igloo- I still think Igloo is pretty strong but it's limited by + buys, so I don't think multiple copies is a problem. +2 coins is pretty solid and putting the card you buy into your hand for the next turn seems so much stronger than +1 card to me at least until to start to buy victory cards. While it's not as strong as some power duration cards such as wharf, I do find it stronger than Merchant Ship at least the first copy. I don't know, maybe I think it's effect is too good.

Citadel- I am not sure how good a split grand market is at 5. Sorta seems are the weak side to me but it could be pretty strong.

Gazbag

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #80 on: December 27, 2017, 12:39:18 pm »
+3

4 New cards of varying complexity.

Cabin:

This comes from wanting a Governor type thing that isn't broken like Governor. I figured making it terminal was the first thing to do and now it's this Count-like thing that is a mess of words. The idea is that you get 2 of the options and your opponent gets 1 of the 2 options that you chose. Taking a Coin token is obviously the strongest option here and is never bad, but that means it'll always be good for your opponent where as the other options are more situational, so you might be able to leverage them to get more out of them than your opponent, making taking the token as one of the options not always the best thing to do (hopefully). I think this is on the weaker side, as terminal money usually is. Does Sacred Grove make this redundant? No particular reason why this is a cabin other than that I had art for a cabin.

Outcast:

I feel like every set should have at least 1 $2 cantrip these days. This one is a little Menagerie type thing, but seem much weaker than Menagerie so it's $2. Seems similar to Patritian so far in terms of powerlevel. It's an Outcast because it finds things that are on their own, also because the name seemed to fit the art that I had well.

Cauldron:

This has about as much to with the Ice theme as Faithful Hound has to with Nocturne. I actually really like this, even though nobody would have batted an eyelid if it were in the Base 2nd edition. It's an old one from before Empires that started out as very similar to Engineer and then when Empires came out I shelved it for being similar to Engineer until recently I was thinking about an Altar that gained $4's and how it would be too bad at $5 but too good at $4 and then remembered Cauldron and here it is now as an Alter double-Workshop hybrid thing. It's good on similar board to when Workshop is good, but costing $5 means it plays quite differently. Flavour justification: you're putting something in the Cauldron (trashing it) and getting some new stuff out of it.

Mountain Outpost:

We have many durations that are good now and good later (Fishing Village, Merchant Ship etc) and many that are bad now and good later (Tactician, Haunted Woods etc) but none that are good now and bad later. Here's one that is good now and bad later to fill that gap. It's pretty simple, which is good, although maybe +4 cards might not be quite generous enough given that this stacks quite badly and Hunting Grounds gives that with an extra on-trash thing for $6. It reduces your next turn's handsize, like Outpost and I managed to find art that is similar to Outpost's art so I'm happy with that.
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Asper

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #81 on: December 27, 2017, 10:01:41 pm »
+2

Gee, I really need to step up my game ;D
These new ones all look pretty great!

I do think that Cabin has too may options, though. Removing just the +2 Card one would probably make it much better. I mean, I like how this option interacts with the chancellor option, but it's the most complex one and also has the most words. I don't find anything negative to say about the other three, they all look cute.

My first reaction to Outcast was to assume it would need a little extra, but by now I think it's certainly strong enough.

Mountain Outpost seems fine, and the idea of "good now, bad later" is better executed than I have seen anywhere before. I appreciate how clean the design is. However, if you are worried about strength already, I'm sure adding a buy would work wonders.

I'm not exactly sure what to say about Cauldron, because I feel you'd have to play with it to see. At worst, it's a Trader, at best it gains 5$s thanks to cost reduction. If you wanted to avoid that, you could say "costing less than this", but I guess it's more fun this way. One last thing: The name "Cauldron" kinda sounds like something that should cost a Potion.

Chappy7

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #82 on: December 27, 2017, 10:56:42 pm »
+2

I agree with Asper that one of the Cabin choices should probably disappear. 

I also think that mountain outpost could definitely use a buff. I like that you can't stack it like crazy without ruining your next turn, but being a duration you won't get it in your hand as often.  I'd much rather buy hunting grounds at $6 than this at $5.  Then again, it is good to have some stronger and some weaker cards as long as the deviation isn't too much.

I think Cauldron is super cool and it looks like fun.  I think Outcast looks really good for a $2 actually
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Gazbag

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #83 on: December 28, 2017, 08:03:48 am »
+1

Gee, I really need to step up my game ;D
These new ones all look pretty great!

Thanks a lot! That's high praise indeed coming from you!

I do think that Cabin has too may options, though. Removing just the +2 Card one would probably make it much better. I mean, I like how this option interacts with the chancellor option, but it's the most complex one and also has the most words. I don't find anything negative to say about the other three, they all look cute.

This is probably the fix, the chancellor option only really makes the cards one +2 Cards Discard too cards so it's not like it's a great loss that that interaction goes. The text on the card does look much nicer without that option. I also doubt it makes it much weaker, Secret Chamber reaction was never really that useful.

My first reaction to Outcast was to assume it would need a little extra, but by now I think it's certainly strong enough.

Yep seems pretty Patritiany to me so far, Maybe a bit weaker on average.

Mountain Outpost seems fine, and the idea of "good now, bad later" is better executed than I have seen anywhere before. I appreciate how clean the design is. However, if you are worried about strength already, I'm sure adding a buy would work wonders.

I did think about that but then I remembered Wharf and Margrave and thought, maybe terminal draw with +buy is too good? Even Tragic Hero is much better than most people seem to be giving it credit for. I also want this to be a functioning set, so I have to be careful of how many +buy cards there are.

I'm not exactly sure what to say about Cauldron, because I feel you'd have to play with it to see. At worst, it's a Trader, at best it gains 5$s thanks to cost reduction. If you wanted to avoid that, you could say "costing less than this", but I guess it's more fun this way. One last thing: The name "Cauldron" kinda sounds like something that should cost a Potion.

Yes, Cauldron is quite board dependant for sure. Gaining 2 Silvers? Usually not the best. Gaining 2 Ironmongers? Wow! It can get crazy with cost reduction, Highway in particular, but I think that's cost reduction being broken rather than Cauldron so I don't mind it myself. Yeah Cauldron probably could fit right into Alchemy, but Loan has nothing to do with debt so there!

I agree with Asper that one of the Cabin choices should probably disappear. 

I think I agree too.

I also think that mountain outpost could definitely use a buff. I like that you can't stack it like crazy without ruining your next turn, but being a duration you won't get it in your hand as often.  I'd much rather buy hunting grounds at $6 than this at $5.  Then again, it is good to have some stronger and some weaker cards as long as the deviation isn't too much.

It's not the best card ever in it's current form, If you play 1 every turn then it's "Discard a card. +4 Cards"  which is probably an okay $5 so yeah this could do with a small buff. +1 buy is the easiest and probably the simplest, but I'll try to thin of something more unique that doesn't ruin the simplicity of the card.

I think Cauldron is super cool and it looks like fun.  I think Outcast looks really good for a $2 actually

I'm glad you like it  :) By really good do you mean it's too strong? Or good as in $2 is a good cost?
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Asper

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #84 on: December 28, 2017, 09:41:52 am »
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I can't read minds, but I would assume Chappy7 means that Outcast is strong. After all, it's relatively likely to be a Lab if you have it in hand early in your turn, which is huge for a card at the "might as well buy this over nothing" cost point. It will whiff more often if you draw it later, and also has a high chance to do so early in the game, but like Menagerie the payoff is relatively huge. The thing with Menagerie is, once it fails for the first time, it becomes very likely that subsequent attempts will also fail, which isn't true for Outcast. For both, the card becomes less and less likely to draw those extra cards the more often you play it successfully, but again, this is steeper with Menagerie because of its higher payoff.

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #85 on: December 28, 2017, 10:49:16 am »
0


I'm glad you like it  :) By really good do you mean it's too strong? Or good as in $2 is a good cost?

Oh sorry, I guess I wasn't clear.  I mean that it looks quite strong.   Kinda like a chariot race effect, but it only costs $2 to buy. I definitely could be way off, but it seems like it would be pretty easy to make it a lab.  I'll try to use it next time I play irl and see what I think.
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Gazbag

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #86 on: December 29, 2017, 11:13:13 am »
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I'm glad you like it  :) By really good do you mean it's too strong? Or good as in $2 is a good cost?

Oh sorry, I guess I wasn't clear.  I mean that it looks quite strong.   Kinda like a chariot race effect, but it only costs $2 to buy. I definitely could be way off, but it seems like it would be pretty easy to make it a lab.  I'll try to use it next time I play irl and see what I think.

No worries! The difference between $2 and $3 isn't all that much really and this is very unreliable as draw because you have to line up the 2nd card of your deck and the contents of your hand. Chariot Race is weird one because it would be weaker if it cost $2. I'll admit I haven't really tried to go too far out of my way in any games to trigger Outcasts so maybe it's actually really good, I'll have to try that out. It would be awesome if you tried it yourself!

What do people think about an on-gain Chancellor effect for Mountain Outpost? I opened Cursed Village the other day on a 5/2 and got War and it just Chancellored me because I didn't have any 3/4s yet, which gave me the idea. It also has the interaction with Ice tokens that it makes you shuffle more so the tokens matter more. Or do you think that could lead to too much shuffling? Can't be any worse than Inn for that though, right?
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Asper

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #87 on: December 29, 2017, 01:49:53 pm »
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I don't think you should actively try to "line up" cards to trigger Outcast. But if you trash down and go for many different cards, it should pay nicely to have these over quite a few other 2$s.

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #88 on: December 30, 2017, 06:11:40 pm »
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I don't think you should actively try to "line up" cards to trigger Outcast. But if you trash down and go for many different cards, it should pay nicely to have these over quite a few other 2$s.

Oh yeah, this is how I've been playing it. Can't hurt to test these things though!
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Gazbag

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #89 on: January 04, 2018, 12:31:32 pm »
+4

Got a few new ones for you.

Tundra:


Partially inspired by Enchantress and also trying to sneak a way to get Copper gaining into the set, because I love Copper gaining for some reason. Instead of blanking the first played action it blanks the first gained card, it gives the Copper option as to not ruin single gain games, it's kind of ended up as a mini Swamp Hag. I don't think Copper pile size variation with more players is a concern because it's limited to 1 per turn, although thinking about it would multiples make people gain multiple Coppers if they don't want to exchange? Well the on play bonus is pretty weak so hopefully that doesn't matter. Also with multiple buys this could let your opponents pick up cheap Silvers and then there's interactions with on-gain effects too, hopefully that makes for fun experiences. Could this get away with costing $3? I'm a bit short on $3s at the moment.

Taiga:


TAIGA UPPERCUT!!! Everybody likes Peddlers! An Ice token from play was an obvious thing to try, but this stemmed from the idea of a reverse traveller at first. The way I was going to do that was to have a vanilla cantrip that you can optionally set aside for an additional bonus (+$2 +1buy or +1 card +1 action, stuff like that) because making the exchange mandatory was bad if you forgot to do it - Vampire/Bat gets around the mandatory exchange because you do it when you play the card but actions can't do that obviously. Setting the card aside wasn't great, especially with Ice tokens doing that in the same set and you just always exchanged the first 2 or so times and then left it and never got the weaker ones. It had too many issues and didn't seem worth all the extra cards. So now you do it once and then it's a Silver, but if the game lasts long enough you get it back! That might be a bit too much to be honest but we'll have to see, the type of decks that can abuse a Grand Market don't appreciate the Silvers so much and I don't mind cards being strong in sloggier games. Flavour justification is that you cut down the forest for some cash and then it grows back. "Coppice" would be a good name too.

Reindeer:


+2 Cards Take a Coin token is probably too good for $3, but I'm pretty sure the other part makes this much weaker if you want multiples. I'm also pretty sure this won't stay in the set for long but maybe something can be salvaged from it...

Finally here's an updated Mountain Outpost:


It seems like a nice extra bonus, a bit different from boring old +1 Buy.
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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #90 on: January 04, 2018, 03:31:34 pm »
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I don't really see what's so appealing about Copper gaining. In the end, Tundra is pretty much a weaker Swamp Hag. Also, it needs to be reworded to avoid an interaction with junking attacks.

+1 for Taiga uppercut  ;D

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #91 on: January 04, 2018, 06:40:07 pm »
+1

Well the main idea of Tundra was the Silver exchange and the Copper part was just so it doesn't lock people out of the game, but yeah it does make it too close to Hag probably. I too don't know what's so appealing about Copper gains, I just enjoy it and Cache and Mountebank give it a bad reputation.


Here's a different version, it doesn't work if there's no mid-turn gaining but it gives +1 buy now so hopefully that means it has enough utility to still be bought sometimes without that. It also gets around the junking attack interaction - thanks for pointing that out. I feel like this can cost $3 too? Duration-Woodcutter seems very weak so I think it's fine?

Edit because there's no point making another post:

I like Asper's suggestion of removing the +2 cards, topdeck 2 option of Cabin so here's that updated:



A couple of games with Frost Spirit proved that it is in fact, crazy. The combination of non-mandatory cantrip thinning and then setting aside Provinces later is way too much. There are a few things that can be done to reign it in, preventing it from setting aside non-Estate victory cards is one thing to try - but man that's an ugly phrase to have on the card, I'd rather not resort to that. It might be fine at $5, but I'd rather it stay cheaper. Making it mandatory won't be enough on it's own. Cookielord suggested making it +2 cards at $3 which I liked the sound of because I <3 Masquerade. So here's that version:



Finally here's something I thought of about 15 minutes ago.

Spyglass: (Now with proper formatting, thanks to Asper for pointing that out)


So I love getting an early Sun's gift with Bard, it's like a non-terrible Navigator that also does more useful stuff later, absolutely wonderful. I also would like a treasure in the set. So yeah early on this gives you some ever underrated cycling and later in the game when your deck is in order and full of different components the inspection is less useful this gets cashed in for a Gold which I think is neat, also seems fairly thematic. I guess it could be reworded a bit to make the Gold gain optional but I doubt you'll ever be too upset when that happens. I'm not sure whether that pen in the art is appropriate for dominion but I'm not too bothered really, I also actually remembered to credit the artist so there! Also with this and Taiga there's something that turns into a Gold, something that turns into a Silver... I'm smelling a mini-theme that could sneak a little Copper gaining in here...
« Last Edit: January 06, 2018, 03:55:55 pm by Gazbag »
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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #92 on: January 05, 2018, 09:03:34 pm »
+1

About Frost Spirit, maybe the cantrip version would be fine if it was just 3 tokens instead of 4? Just in case you prefer a cantrip variant. That seems relatively easy to scale. I take back my suggestion of having it cost 5$ or being mandatory, and I'm glad you didn't go for those.

Spyglass's Coin symbol should be big, like in other Treasures, and should be repeated at the upper borders.

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #93 on: January 05, 2018, 10:05:56 pm »
+1

About Frost Spirit, maybe the cantrip version would be fine if it was just 3 tokens instead of 4? Just in case you prefer a cantrip variant. That seems relatively easy to scale. I take back my suggestion of having it cost 5$ or being mandatory, and I'm glad you didn't go for those.

Spyglass's Coin symbol should be big, like in other Treasures, and should be repeated at the upper borders.

Yeah that seems like another decent option. I like this +2 cards version because it costs $3, which this set is lacking in.

Yep I messed up the Spyglass a bit, it's a miracle it says treasure on the bottom instead of action really.
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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #94 on: January 06, 2018, 07:46:25 pm »
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Tundra - This attack seems to kingdom biased. Why have this card to only counter gainers: black market, workshop, gold gainers, while helping some: rats, death cart, and letting remodel trash coppers into silver. And in kingdoms without action gainers it's just a delayed wood cutter. Maybe I am too hard on this card, I don't know.

Taiga - Seems okayish maybe even a bit strong. I see most of this card's power of this card coming from the extra +1 coin, The buy just seems to be there to make it a grand market clone (I prefer more consistent sources of + buys) but the +buy doesn't seem bad. The Silver gain is cute but it seems to lower weight of the choice for setting aside the taiga since it "replaces the limboed Taiga" while increases the max coin your deck can produce when you get your taiga back. But I am not sure how bad 6 ice tokens are since I never played with them. Hard card to judge.

Reindeer - This card seems to have a huge luck factor if you plan to use +1 action and gain a reindeer effect. Just looking at the top card to trigger it's effect doesn't seem that controllable at all. However like you said +2 cards and a coin token does seem very strong for 3. Here is a reworked effect of this I just thought of randomly...
Name - Reindeer
Cost - ?
Type - Action
Effect- +1 Card Reveal your hand if you reveal two or more action cards +2 Actions. Otherwise, +1 Card and Gain a Reindeer.

Gazbag

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #95 on: January 07, 2018, 11:20:43 am »
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Tundra - This attack seems to kingdom biased. Why have this card to only counter gainers: black market, workshop, gold gainers, while helping some: rats, death cart, and letting remodel trash coppers into silver. And in kingdoms without action gainers it's just a delayed wood cutter. Maybe I am too hard on this card, I don't know.

Yeah it is Kingdom dependant but honestly I think that's not a bad thing, so many attacks in Dominion (mainly ones from earlier expansions) are super powerful, so I think there is plenty of room for more situational attack cards. The main issue I have with it is that it just might not be fun, gaining cards is fun and not always available/viable so hosing that might just not be great for funness.

Taiga - Seems okayish maybe even a bit strong. I see most of this card's power of this card coming from the extra +1 coin, The buy just seems to be there to make it a grand market clone (I prefer more consistent sources of + buys) but the +buy doesn't seem bad. The Silver gain is cute but it seems to lower weight of the choice for setting aside the taiga since it "replaces the limboed Taiga" while increases the max coin your deck can produce when you get your taiga back. But I am not sure how bad 6 ice tokens are since I never played with them. Hard card to judge.

The buy is mainly there because I don't really have any +buy cards I'm overly happy with yet, so time to start sticking +buy on things at every opportunity! Also it could lead to situations where you get a cheeky pileout from a surprise +buy, which is always fun/makes you feel smart. I also suspect that winning in this way will become known as the TAIGA UPPERCUT!!! 6 Ice tokens is a long time, especially if you reach the point of drawing deck - that's like 6 whole shuffles! It's less of a concern on slower sloggier decks, but $5 Peddlers are generally terrible in those decks so that's nice. The Silver adds a stop card to engine so you can't abuse these too much and it's decent in other decks too. My guess on the powerlevel is that it's on the stronger side of a weakish subset of cards, I'll go with better than Baker and Market but worse than Bazaar.

Reindeer - This card seems to have a huge luck factor if you plan to use +1 action and gain a reindeer effect. Just looking at the top card to trigger it's effect doesn't seem that controllable at all. However like you said +2 cards and a coin token does seem very strong for 3. Here is a reworked effect of this I just thought of randomly...
Name - Reindeer
Cost - ?
Type - Action
Effect- +1 Card Reveal your hand if you reveal two or more action cards +2 Actions. Otherwise, +1 Card and Gain a Reindeer.

I probably shouldn't have posted Reindeer, it was just a jokey thing but hey maybe something comes of it. This Reindeer probably plays like a broken Vassel thing or something.

Aaand instead of finishing off my Qvist list part which I'll be posting tomorrow - the bottom half of the $2's, stay tuned. I've been making a couple more rough cards that I should probably think about more before posting.

Refuge:

I like journey token cards and Idol is kinda like them, so why not try something else using new Idol technology? It's a Hamlet for actions and then a Bazaar! First draft this only gave the extra action on the first play, so the second play was just a Peddler but that sounded very weak to me so now you always get the village. On odd plays the effect is weak for $3 but the net effect on the second is like playing 2 Villages and an Oasis which is a bit above curve, so this is balanced? A bit bland maybe?

Hunter version 2


Ideally the Game card would have been the Quarry card, as in a hunter's quarry. Unfortunately Quarry is also a stone digging hole so that's already a card... best to avoid confusion there, differentiating Actions and Action cards can already be confusing. The main idea is that it's a Village for a certain card, it's the reverse of Young Witch because Young Witch is weaker with a strong Bane but Hunter is stronger with a strong Game (imagine a game where this is the Bane!). I think this wants to be cheaper than $5 so it doesn't compete with the Game but I'm honestly not enthused with the on-play currently, it's actually just really similar to Plaza. Maybe the discard could be mandatory and then you get something for discarding a victory, like +1 buy or something?

I don't think this expansion needs Refuge and Hunter btw, 1 discardy villagy $3 is plenty so it's a case of seeing which people prefer/what plays nicely. Or maybe they meld into 1 card or I find something better, who knows.

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #96 on: January 07, 2018, 03:55:21 pm »
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Isn't the new Hunter just a more complicated, worse Plaza?

Gazbag

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #97 on: January 07, 2018, 05:10:55 pm »
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Isn't the new Hunter just a more complicated, worse Plaza?

Yes as I already pointed out:

it's actually just really similar to Plaza.

Do you like the core idea of a village that can only play another card? The other stuff is kinda placeholder at the moment.
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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #98 on: January 07, 2018, 06:27:49 pm »
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Refuge- The even odd effect doesn't seem to have much payoff if you don't discard dead cards. Playing one or three refuges during your turn seems much worse than villages to me. Looks a tad weak to me, I could very well be wrong though.

Hunter- Like asper said it looks like a worse plaza. Here is another reworked effect I just thought of randomly...
"Name - Hunter
Cost - 4
Type - Action
Effect- +1 Card +1 Action You may play a Game card from your hand twice. If you do, Trash it. This turn, Game cards cost 4. / Setup: Add an extra Action Kingdom card pile costing 5 coins to the Supply. Cards from that pile are Game cards."
Probably way too strong for 4.

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #99 on: January 07, 2018, 08:35:14 pm »
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Isn't the new Hunter just a more complicated, worse Plaza?

Yes as I already pointed out:

it's actually just really similar to Plaza.

Do you like the core idea of a village that can only play another card? The other stuff is kinda placeholder at the moment.

Sorry for missing out on that. I wouldn't have assumed you'd go for it if you had been aware of the similarity, as it is a lot worse at a price point which is only marginally cheaper (and Donald X often stated he'd like several of the 4$ Villages to cost 3$ if it wasn't about "strictly better stuff") as well as being too complicated.

I like the "play a special card" idea, but I think the card itself needs to be more interesting. As interesting as I find the ice token mechanic, as much do I think that coin tokens were sufficiently covered by Guids. Cantrip tokens, terminal tokens, disappearing tokens, on-buy tokens, conditional tokens... In the end, coin tokens are already a variant of "+coins", so there isn't unlimited space to explore here. In general, I find the "pure" Ice token cards better, because they are more unique in what they do. Think about how Scrying Pool looks like a more complicated Spy for having its attack.

The obviously balanced thing would be something like a 5& or 6$ card that gives +3 Cards and allows you to play the Game card. Obvious because, well, Cultist already does a thing like that. And then there's Imp and Conclave, both of which have much less rigid restrictions. I used to ponder a "Young Sorcerer" idea that could somehow use a Bane card in your deck back when Cornucopia came around, and I think (but can't swear) that I thought about playing that card. And well, I never managed to think of a card that was worthwile, so I'm afraid Cultist is the best I can think of. At least I can say that the idea to only let cards costing 5$ be Game makes sense to me.

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #100 on: January 08, 2018, 08:14:12 pm »
+1

Isn't the new Hunter just a more complicated, worse Plaza?

Yes as I already pointed out:

it's actually just really similar to Plaza.

Do you like the core idea of a village that can only play another card? The other stuff is kinda placeholder at the moment.

Sorry for missing out on that. I wouldn't have assumed you'd go for it if you had been aware of the similarity, as it is a lot worse at a price point which is only marginally cheaper (and Donald X often stated he'd like several of the 4$ Villages to cost 3$ if it wasn't about "strictly better stuff") as well as being too complicated.

No worries man, I usually just let it slide when people repeat something I said because it usually means they agree with me. I was in a pretty sour mood when I made that post so I hope it didn't seem rude or anything.

I did write a long ranting post about your opinion on Coin tokens but it was a bit much, so I'll just say I think Cargo Ship, Seer, Barbarian and to some extent Cabin all do new/interesting enough things with Coin tokens to justify their presence in this expansion and then if they're in the expansion anyway they can be used for balance reasons or just to spice up a few cards. Sort of like how Cobbler doesn't justify the Nights, but in the context of a set already using Nights it's a totally reasonable card.

Also I think you're implying that Cultist is balanced? Errrr...

I think what to do with Hunter is to make it a $2 bad village or to make it a $4 thing that is sometimes village or sometimes non-terminal. Having it cost $3 makes it tricky to balance relative to village/other $4 vilages.

Also the first ever play of Spyglass resulted in a Gold gain, ha! And people told me it was weak!
« Last Edit: January 08, 2018, 08:28:05 pm by Gazbag »
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Asper

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #101 on: January 08, 2018, 08:35:15 pm »
+1

Isn't the new Hunter just a more complicated, worse Plaza?

Yes as I already pointed out:

it's actually just really similar to Plaza.

Do you like the core idea of a village that can only play another card? The other stuff is kinda placeholder at the moment.

Sorry for missing out on that. I wouldn't have assumed you'd go for it if you had been aware of the similarity, as it is a lot worse at a price point which is only marginally cheaper (and Donald X often stated he'd like several of the 4$ Villages to cost 3$ if it wasn't about "strictly better stuff") as well as being too complicated.

No worries man, I usually just let it slide when people repeat something I said because it usually means they agree with me. I was in a pretty sour mood when I made that post so I hope it didn't seem rude or anything.

I did write a long ranting post about your opinion on Coin tokens but it was a bit much, so I'll just say I think Cargo Ship, Seer, Barbarian and to some extent Cabin all do new/interesting enough things with Coin tokens to justify their presence in this expansion and then if they're in the expansion anyway they can be used for balance reasons or just to spice up a few cards. Sort of like how Cobbler doesn't justify the Nights, but in the context of a set already using Nights it's a totally reasonable card.

Also I think you're implying that Cultist is balanced? Errrr...

I think what to do with Hunter is to make it a $2 bad village or to make it a $4 thing that is sometimes village or sometimes non-terminal. Having it cost $3 makes it tricky to balance relative to village/other $4 vilages.

No, Cultist isn't balanced. I just meant to imply that terminal draw is a good thing to put conditional Action card playing on. But we already have two cards that do this, so maybe it's not as great.

I see your point with Cobbler and the Night cards. It's not even like I dislike the coin token mechanic, the ice tokens are just more interesting and unique.

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #102 on: January 10, 2018, 01:24:03 pm »
+3

No, Cultist isn't balanced. I just meant to imply that terminal draw is a good thing to put conditional Action card playing on. But we already have two cards that do this, so maybe it's not as great.

I see your point with Cobbler and the Night cards. It's not even like I dislike the coin token mechanic, the ice tokens are just more interesting and unique.

The quote block was getting a bit big, so I cut it out.

Yes I see what you're saying about Cultist now, I misread that at first. I guess Saunavanto is also doing a similar thing, so maybe it's just an idea that leads to busted things. Although I think getting rid of the trashing ability of Sauna would make it less ridiculous - Saunavanto is just doing too much at once and the split pile mechanic kind of just compounds that. I also think Cultist without the attack could be a reasonable $4 maybe.

Anyway here's a new new Hunter:


I think maybe making it cost $5 like the game is actually good, because with it being a $3 I feel like the deck would kind of build itself if the game was something worth doing, if that makes sense. So this is Fugitive or a Lost City if you have the game, seems reasonable to me? Fugitive is obvs weak for $5, but not useless and the ceiling of Lost City is totally insane or anything and having to line up and balance $5's 1:1 isn't trivial.
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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #103 on: January 10, 2018, 01:51:59 pm »
+1

Hunter- It seems sorta hard to build an engine with the lost city part of this card if the Game card isn't a good terminal. Maybe making the game cost 3 or 4 is better, but maybe that would make it too easy to proc? I don't know.

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #104 on: January 10, 2018, 06:02:27 pm »
0

Hunter- It seems sorta hard to build an engine with the lost city part of this card if the Game card isn't a good terminal. Maybe making the game cost 3 or 4 is better, but maybe that would make it too easy to proc? I don't know.

I think this being on the weaker or more situational side of things isn't too bad because it's always going to add another $5 action to the table. The upside of a Lost City is really good too so I'm fairly certain it'll be powerful a reasonable amount of the time. I hope trying to balance these with the Game card leads to interesting deck building decisions.
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Asper

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #105 on: January 10, 2018, 06:08:05 pm »
+1

Personally, I like the new new Hunter. Not only is it different to the cards I named (and Saunavanto, which I forgot), it also looks balanced. And I also like that, unlike a Cultist variant, it doesn't suck if the game card is terminal. I also find the "adds a regular 5$" atgument convincing.

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #106 on: January 11, 2018, 04:38:18 pm »
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Personally, I like the new new Hunter. Not only is it different to the cards I named (and Saunavanto, which I forgot), it also looks balanced. And I also like that, unlike a Cultist variant, it doesn't suck if the game card is terminal. I also find the "adds a regular 5$" atgument convincing.

Yeah, I guess the worst case is something like Mint as the Game or just one of the weak things like Mandarin. Have to test at some point, it seems promising though!
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Gazbag

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #107 on: January 14, 2018, 12:37:40 pm »
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2 new cards trying to incorporate States. Seer was pretty fun in the 1 game I played with it, so why not try other things? Also if this set wants to be big it could do with 1 more mechanic to explore and States are things to put tokens on so seems like a decent option?

Outrider/Bountiful Wilderness


A non-terminal Survivors with +1 Buy. Survivalist would be a cute name thinking about it. A weakish card, but it has utility. If you have enough spare buys then you find a Bountiful Wilderness...



If you don't use all of your buys you get a Coin token, so hopefully you can use your buys better next turn! I think these will need a bit of tweaking, maybe 4 buys on Outrider is too many. I'm also prone to being an idiot, as we saw with the first new Hunter being a terrible Plaza, so if this is obviously terrible please be as harsh as you like.

Signalman/Beacons


This is a bit more like Seer where you start off the game in a State and tokens track things... Beacons is friendly though, where Avalanche is nasty. Also "each player takes a Beacons" great wording.



Beacons gives you a free Moat, but if you want to keep up the defences you'll have to get a Signalman or two. Also each beacon only defends one attack, this is so that attacks aren't completely useless in Signalman games. Although Lighthouse and Guardian kinda make attacks useless a lot of the time... Signalman does other things with Beacons so it isn't useless in games with no attacks. You don't have to remove tokens for the coin effect of Signalman, so it could potentially be good payload later in the game. Perhaps the +$1 you get for putting a token on Beacons could instead be take a Coin token. Hmmm, what do people think?
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loneXolf

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #108 on: January 14, 2018, 01:33:47 pm »
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Outrider- This just seems like a non-attack spy that gives you a buy instead of a card. While milling two cards is much better than one it can still be awkward if you get a copper/dead card with a high value one. Also the card only nets a buy which doesn't make it that spamable to trigger Bountiful Wilderness. Maybe removing the spy effect for +1 coin would be better but then it might be too similar to Candlestick Maker.

Bountiful Wilderness-...Doesn't seem to work that well Outrider. I can see this card being pretty powerful with some other +buy cards. Market, Druid, Squire, Forager, Counterfeit, Bridge Troll to name a few, on the top of my head.

Signalman/Beacons- I am not a big fan of pirate ship clones. It's a bit faster than Miser since it starts with a coin token, Also giving a coin isn't that much worse than "trashing a copper". Also in a two player game I can see this really killing most attacks later in the game if you can make a decent engine with this, which probably isn't a big deal.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2018, 01:37:50 pm by loneXolf »
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Asper

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #109 on: January 14, 2018, 06:56:08 pm »
+1

Signalman seems too much better than Pirate Ship, to be honest. It starts at one token, gives +1$ even when you add one, has no risk of whiffing, can use its tokens for other benefits and costs less. The Treasure trashing on PS makes sure it isn't strictly worse, but I would argue that it actually is even another disadvantage most of the time.
 I also think that Outrider Signalman could technically work without a state, if it just used special tokens and said something similar to Embargo:

"Setup: Each player takes one Signal token. When another player plays an attack card, players may lose one Signal token to be unaffected by it."

loneXolf

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #110 on: January 14, 2018, 09:50:06 pm »
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Signalman seems too much better than Pirate Ship, to be honest. It starts at one token, gives +1$ even when you add one, has no risk of whiffing, can use its tokens for other benefits and costs less. The Treasure trashing on PS makes sure it isn't strictly worse, but I would argue that it actually is even another disadvantage most of the time.
 I also think that Outrider could technically work without a state, if it just used special tokens and said something similar to Embargo:

"Setup: Each player takes one Signal token. When another player plays an attack card, players may lose one Signal token to be unaffected by it."

I wouldn't say Signalman directly Powercreeps Pirate Ship since most of Pirate's Ship "strength" can come from it's attack like thief. For example in games with the only decent way to gain coin is Pirateship and Treasures where the other player(s) bought a chapel(heavy trashing) or in a bad kingdom where the only openings is silver/pirate ship or silver/silver. However I do agree, if you don't plan to benefit off the attack of Pirateship, Signalman is just better. Also I think Signalman could lose the set up token at the cost of 3. I assume your Outrider comment is for Signalman, I don't really see much of a reason for signalman to have it's own token, if Embargo couldn't really use a card since it would cover the card. And if it used a coin token it wouldn't work well with trade route. A state is much easier to add then another token.

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #111 on: January 14, 2018, 11:06:27 pm »
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Signalman seems too much better than Pirate Ship, to be honest. It starts at one token, gives +1$ even when you add one, has no risk of whiffing, can use its tokens for other benefits and costs less. The Treasure trashing on PS makes sure it isn't strictly worse, but I would argue that it actually is even another disadvantage most of the time.
 I also think that Outrider could technically work without a state, if it just used special tokens and said something similar to Embargo:

"Setup: Each player takes one Signal token. When another player plays an attack card, players may lose one Signal token to be unaffected by it."

I wouldn't say Signalman directly Powercreeps Pirate Ship since most of Pirate's Ship "strength" can come from it's attack like thief. For example in games with the only decent way to gain coin is Pirateship and Treasures where the other player(s) bought a chapel(heavy trashing) or in a bad kingdom where the only openings is silver/pirate ship or silver/silver. However I do agree, if you don't plan to benefit off the attack of Pirateship, Signalman is just better. Also I think Signalman could lose the set up token at the cost of 3. I assume your Outrider comment is for Signalman, I don't really see much of a reason for signalman to have it's own token, if Embargo couldn't really use a card since it would cover the card. And if it used a coin token it wouldn't work well with trade route. A state is much easier to add then another token.

Yes, I meant Signalman, not Outrider. I don't see how a State would be easier. You have tokens already, so the State just is additional material.

Gazbag

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #112 on: January 14, 2018, 11:19:44 pm »
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Signalman seems too much better than Pirate Ship, to be honest. It starts at one token, gives +1$ even when you add one, has no risk of whiffing, can use its tokens for other benefits and costs less. The Treasure trashing on PS makes sure it isn't strictly worse, but I would argue that it actually is even another disadvantage most of the time.
 I also think that Outrider could technically work without a state, if it just used special tokens and said something similar to Embargo:

"Setup: Each player takes one Signal token. When another player plays an attack card, players may lose one Signal token to be unaffected by it."

I think "better than Pirate Ship" is something all cards should strive to be...  I mean if you think it's too strong that's fair enough but I don't care for the Pirate comparison. Miser seems like a better comparison and Copper trashing is better than +$1 by at least a mile. I mean I think that Signalman is pretty weak... seems poor compared to Gladiator to me considering you have to play Abandoned Mine twice before it's worth $3. Also no Fortune or free Gold.

I am thinking that the way it is now it sucks as an attack defence, which was supposed to be the main hook of the card. I'm thinking it could just do something generically useful and add a token, and if there aren't any attacks to defend against, well it's still doing something generically useful. I guess it's not like Lighthouse is great without attacks and that's fine too. Or maybe you just start the game with like 3 tokens and then it just does something unrelated so you only have a limited number of tokens? I don't know, lots of ways to take it.

Technically all States could use a token/ tokens, a good example is the Hexes. If Hexes were in Adventures for example I'm sure Miserable and co. would use a token. But Nocturne didn't have tokens, so it uses States instead. Ice Age has Ice and Coin tokens already and other cards that use a State, so using Coin tokens and a State seems more logical to me. Donald has also said that if he did a 2nd edition of Seaside he would update Embargo and Pirate Ship to not use tokens and instead just set aside treasures/put Embargos on piles to track (or probably just get rid of them because they're both duds). The reason why Pirate Ship and Embargo use tokens is because the publisher wanted to justify a higher price point for the expansion by including metal tokens, as seaside had 200 fewer cards than Base and Intrigue. The notion that using tokens is somehow simpler is false, in my opinion. It's nice to have the card there with the rules right on it.

Oh also it turns out that Rediscover gaining Provinces with 3 Ice tokens on them is fairly broken, I'll have to rethink that one...
 
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ipofanes

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #113 on: January 15, 2018, 11:29:57 am »
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I don't think the word "first" belongs on the Beacon text, as it can only be used after the Attack is played but before it can resolve.
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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #114 on: January 15, 2018, 11:56:09 am »
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I guess you are right about Pirate Ship being too weak (especially in 2P games) to matter as much, but even Miser has not only advantages over Signalman - so I'm not sure it's too weak. For instance, if you can't line up Signalman with a Copper, it doesn't just whiff. Also, compared to Signalman, you suffer not 1$, but 2$ loss the turn you use Miser to build up money. Signalman can be useful in decks with other strong trashers, whereas Miser is redundant with those. Also, the tokens can still be used as a defense and it costs ever-so-slightly less.

About Gladiator, it isn't always worth 3$, and Fortune isn't something you get by Gladiator, so counting it as something seperate from those free Golds leads to the wrong impression.

I don't recall Donald saying that he'd put Embargo itself on the piles, but you might have newer information than me. Last time I checked, he said that putting Embargo itself on the piles (as done in the beginning) was confusing to people, and so he changed it when it was clear there could be tokens. Similar about Pirate Ship confusing people when Treasures on the mat were worth more than 1$. Maybe you can link to where you got that information? I do recall him saying he'd have preferred Adventures' -Card and -Coin tokens as States, but that's another bag. One thing they have in common with Nocturne'state for example is that they are given to players at some point and can be removed later.

Also, I don't agree to Embargo being a dud. Our games have shown me that you are a much better player than me, so maybe Embargo is weak from an experienced player's perspective. But it shapes a game, as you can't go for certain strategies without being punished (ergo it's not pointless), and I also believe it is relatively popular. My favourite Seaside card togegher with Haven, actually.

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #115 on: January 15, 2018, 01:04:02 pm »
+1

Yes, I meant Signalman, not Outrider. I don't see how a State would be easier. You have tokens already, so the State just is additional material.

I meant adding extra cards would be easier than adding another unique token for a single card. Unique tokens would just make the game harder to set up and track, while more cards would also do this I would put it on a lesser effect. Also I don't know which dominion token you could use to track Signalman well.

Gazbag

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #116 on: January 15, 2018, 01:34:58 pm »
+1

I don't think the word "first" belongs on the Beacon text, as it can only be used after the Attack is played but before it can resolve.

I referenced the 2nd edition Moat for that wording, so I assume it's close to how it would be worded in an official set.

I thought Donald said that stuff in the interview thread, but it was actually on Discord. I'm not sure whether I can link to particular things on Discord? If you just search for posts from Donald X. he was talking about it last Tuesday, it shouldn't be too difficult to find.

Gladiator uncovering Fortune and allowing you to be the first to buy it is the most important thing about Gladiator. I had Embargo as the worst $2 on my Qvist card ranking and in my opinion Tax is a much better execution of that concept, so it's a huge dud in my opinion.

Well the reaction to Signalman has been resoundingly negative anyway, so I'd best rethink it because of that.
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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #117 on: January 15, 2018, 05:20:21 pm »
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Huh, interesting. This sounds like a pretty big change of heart, but if he said it on Discord I'll take your word for it.

Gazbag

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #118 on: January 16, 2018, 11:38:36 am »
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2nd Signalman attempt. It's now a slow Workshop that can also block attacks. I haven't thought this through much so it might be super strong? Actually it seems reasonable? Still much wore than Lighthouse at blocking attacks, but you get one block for free.
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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #119 on: Today at 01:31:29 am »
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2nd Signalman attempt. It's now a slow Workshop that can also block attacks. I haven't thought this through much so it might be super strong? Actually it seems reasonable? Still much wore than Lighthouse at blocking attacks, but you get one block for free.

The Workship effect seems too slow to me for constantly helping a engine, but gaining a free 3 cost card after two/three plays might not be that bad. I wonder if saving the coin tokens for a province is decent.
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