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Author Topic: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress  (Read 26902 times)

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Elestan

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Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« on: May 12, 2016, 08:18:06 am »
+61

Enchantress ($3): Action-Attack-Duration: Until your next turn, the first time each other player plays an Action card on their turn, they get +1 Card and +1 Action instead of following its instructions. At the start of your next turn, +2 Cards

             ENCHANTRESS
           Until your next turn, the first time
           each other player plays an Action
                card on their turn, they get
          +1 Card and +1 Action instead of
                   following its instructions.

                At the start of your next turn,
                            +2 Cards

   ($3) ACTION-ATTACK-DURATION

The self-styled Prince of Giants squinted down at the tiny red-haired figure before him.  "What you say?" he rumbled, setting a few cascades of pebbles tumbling down the nearby hillside.  He shouldn't be talking to anyone, he knew; the Master had sent him down this highway with strict orders to squash anyone approaching.

"Most magnificent of titans", the woman purred, stroking a slender hand over one of his massive calves.  "I beg you not to harm me...I merely came to offer you a meal; you must be famished after your long watch."

The giant leaned down, nostrils flaring as he sniffed, and his stomach growled.  Suddenly he felt as though he hadn't fed in days.  "Eat you?"  he grunted.  His meals weren't usually so cooperative, but he wasn't going to complain.  She did smell good.

A lilting peal of laughter filled his ears.  "Oh no, sir giant!"  The woman gestured toward the side of the road, where a massive cauldron bubbled merrily.  A couple of pigs snuffled through the undergrowth nearby, and he thought he caught the scent of roasting pork.  "Please, won't you try my stew?"  Seeing him eying the pigs, she smiled.  "And after you finish the stew, you can enjoy my pigs to your heart's content."

Why hadn't he noticed those before?  The question vanished almost as quickly as it appeared, wafting away as the rich aroma of the stew sent his mouth watering.  Grunting, he leaned his club against the hillside and lumbered off to enjoy the meal.  He could always squash her after dinner.




Enchantress is an Action-Attack-Duration card introduced in Empires, which pairs a unique attack effect with deferred non-terminal draw in the style of Haunted Woods.  Channeling the legacy of the Odyssey's Circe, or Arthurian Niviane, the Enchantress negates each other player's first Action card each turn by reducing it to a simple cantrip. 

Interactions/Clarifications:
  • Enchantress only alters a card's effect at the moment it is played; effects that trigger at other times (on-gain, on-buy, on-trash, while-in-play, etc.) are not affected. 
  • If an opponent takes multiple turns, each of them is affected by Enchantress.
  • Multiple Enchantress attacks do not stack.
  • Duration cards subject to Enchantress' effect will be cleaned up at the end of the turn, as they have no pending effect to keep them in play.
  • Band of Misfits is affected as any other Action; it gives +1 Card/+1 Action, and does not get to mimic another card.
(Those who prefer not to read detailed strategy tips may skip the following):
Enchantress' attack cuts deepest in the early game, when players often only have one Action card to play; countering that action can reduce early $5 turns to $4 or less, or block critical early plays of trashers such as Chapel or Steward.  Princes and Summons are quite vulnerable to the Enchantress, since they will usually be your first action play, and Village-based engines have difficulty getting started under her influence.  Enchantress anti-synergizes with Looters, as their effects tend to cancel each other out.

As interesting as its attack may be, Enchantress' true power arguably rests in its deferred draw, which allows the player to spend an action on the current turn to start their next turn with extra cards, in a manner similar to Gear.  As with other deferred draw cards, alternating plays of two Enchantresses allows a sustained handsize increase, and keeps the enchantment running continuously.  The presence of discard attacks makes Enchantress particularly compelling, as such attacks both complement and are countered by her abilities.

Players who see their opponent open with Enchantress may want to plan their opening buys to reduce the chance of an early setback.  Silver, while a bit on the boring side, is immune to her charms.  Alternatively, opening double-terminal (potentially double-Enchantress) becomes a bit less risky, since an Enchantress in play makes action collision desirable instead of dire.  One of the best counters to Enchantress is to simply increase your deck's Action density with sacrificial low-cost Actions, if you have the buys to pick them up; Pawn or Pearl Diver aren't greatly diminished by the enchantment, and Great Hall or Highway counter it completely.  If you have some deck manipulation available, tracking your opponents' Enchantresses so that you can avoid getting your best actions countered may be worth the effort.  Later in the game, as action densities increase, the effectiveness of Enchantress' attack usually starts to wane, becoming more of an annoyance than a serious hindrance.


In summary, Enchantress is a potent card for its low price, working as an effective early-game delaying tactic, while simultaneously providing semi-nonterminal draw to boost your deck's economy and velocity.

EDIT 2016/05/15: Added additional clarifications and observations distilled from this thread.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2017, 04:45:54 pm by Elestan »
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AdrianHealey

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #1 on: May 12, 2016, 08:23:55 am »
+1

Love it
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #2 on: May 12, 2016, 08:26:46 am »
+12

This is one of the most creative attacks Donald has come up with, I think. I actually haven't played with it yet, but it sounds super cool and I'm looking forward to how it mixes the game up. Great write-up too.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2016, 08:26:59 am »
0

Relic becomes action-treasure too, doesn't it? :)
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2016, 08:35:41 am »
+6

Highway and Goons are also pretty neat counters. Does Noble Brigand still work against this (since it's effect triggers when-played)?
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2016, 08:40:18 am »
+1

Do you still get token bonuses?

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2016, 08:42:28 am »
+3

I've never played with this card and I think it's already my favorite card ever.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2016, 08:42:42 am »
+5

Relic becomes action-treasure too, doesn't it? :)

Relic isn't an action card, so it's not affected by Enchantress.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2016, 08:45:30 am »
0

Relic becomes action-treasure too, doesn't it? :)

Relic isn't an action card, so it's not affected by Enchantress.

oh i see. I've read "plays an Attack card" instead of Action.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #9 on: May 12, 2016, 08:47:45 am »
+16

It's important to note that Enchantress's attack only replaces the Action's on-play effect with "+1 Card and +1 Action". All its other effects, including any while-in-play effects, still function. For example, Groundskeeper is completely unaffected by the attack. Haggler just swaps its +$2 for +1 Card and +1 Action, but still gains extra cards when you buy.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #10 on: May 12, 2016, 08:48:55 am »
+10

I appreciate the extra effort that went into the preview, both the write up and the impeccable formatting :)
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #11 on: May 12, 2016, 08:49:36 am »
+6

Highway and Goons are also pretty neat counters.
 
Losing the +Buy on Goons still hurts, though.

Quote
Does Noble Brigand still work against this (since it's effect triggers when-played)?

If you mean its on-Buy effect, that still works normally.  Playing an enchanted NB just gives the cantrip effect.

Do you still get token bonuses?

Yes.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #12 on: May 12, 2016, 08:51:34 am »
+1

Enchantress is a counter to enchantress, the same way the first player to play militia has an edge. I don't like that kind of interaction, but it's unavoidable, I guess.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #13 on: May 12, 2016, 08:51:59 am »
+39

Finally a way to power up Scout- by making it a reliable cantrip instead!
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #14 on: May 12, 2016, 08:53:10 am »
+1

Highway and Goons are also pretty neat counters.
 
Losing the +Buy on Goons still hurts, though.
Well, you can play another Goons afterwards.

I was refering to Noble Brigand's when-played effect (which is the same as when-bought).
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #15 on: May 12, 2016, 08:57:24 am »
0

Ooooh this is super cool. I take it this doesn't affect duration effects from cards played on previous turns, but it would affect anything Princed?
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #16 on: May 12, 2016, 08:58:57 am »
+1

Amazing card! My favorite one previewed so far, I love creative attacks, and this is one of the most intriguing yet.

I also really like the art.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #17 on: May 12, 2016, 08:59:49 am »
+9

Ooooh this is super cool. I take it this doesn't affect duration effects from cards played on previous turns, but it would affect anything Princed?

Correct. It affects the first Action card you play in a turn, one way or the other. If you played no cards in your Action phase, it could even affect a Crown played in your Buy phase, come to think of it.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #18 on: May 12, 2016, 09:00:44 am »
+1

I'm really looking forward to this card as well. Haunted Woods is one of my favorites, and this has a lot of the things I like about it. I'm sure there will be some times when you're happy to play a cantrip instead of your terminal. This will probably hurt the most against decks with once or two key actions, not as much against engines.

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #19 on: May 12, 2016, 09:02:57 am »
+4

Is this a rare attack that particularly hurts the standard Rebuild rush? Unless there's a power $3 like Chancellor to pair Rebuild with!
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #20 on: May 12, 2016, 09:04:25 am »
+2

If you Royal Carriage an Action affected by this attack, do you get +1 Card / +1 Action again, or the original effect?
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #21 on: May 12, 2016, 09:04:35 am »
+1

This set is blowing my face off.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #22 on: May 12, 2016, 09:05:54 am »
+1

If you Royal Carriage an Action affected by this attack, do you get +1 Card / +1 Action again, or the original effect?

Gotta be the original effect I'd think.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #23 on: May 12, 2016, 09:07:48 am »
+1

If you Royal Carriage an Action affected by this attack, do you get +1 Card / +1 Action again, or the original effect?

That would not be the first time you played an Action card that turn, so it would work normally.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #24 on: May 12, 2016, 09:10:16 am »
+2

A preview posted before I woke up!?  Land sakes!
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #25 on: May 12, 2016, 09:13:22 am »
+3

This can also let you get one-shots in play for HoP.

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #26 on: May 12, 2016, 09:15:39 am »
+2

Durations really were the untapped potential of Dominion cards. The new Durations from Adventures and what we've seen in Empires really add a lot to the game without adding too much extra complexity.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #27 on: May 12, 2016, 09:19:26 am »
+7

Wow! This is easily the most intriguing card in the set so far for me: a genuinely novel yet simple attack I'm having to think about quite carefully.

Is this the first attack Moat can counter better if you don't React? (-8
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #28 on: May 12, 2016, 09:22:29 am »
0

Wow! This is easily the most intriguing card in the set so far for me: a genuinely novel yet simple attack I'm having to think about quite carefully.

Is this the first attack Moat can counter better if you don't React? (-8
Minion, if you want to get rid of your hand, then not reacting is better.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #29 on: May 12, 2016, 09:27:44 am »
+1

Minion, if you want to get rid of your hand, then not reacting is better.
Well, yes. Or any discard attack if you've got dross + draw_to_N.

But there are very few circumstances in which it's right to react to Enchantress with a Moat. Village, Moat and no other actions is the first that comes to mind.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #30 on: May 12, 2016, 09:34:02 am »
0

The funny thing about Enchantress is that it counters itself.  It also makes you think "I need to overbuy on everything, because one of my Actions in hand isn't going to be doing anything."
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #31 on: May 12, 2016, 09:34:26 am »
+1

Ooooh this is super cool. I take it this doesn't affect duration effects from cards played on previous turns, but it would affect anything Princed?

Correct. It affects the first Action card you play in a turn, one way or the other. If you played no cards in your Action phase, it could even affect a Crown played in your Buy phase, come to think of it.

If you started with the Crown in your hand, then it's always better to play it in your action phase. Edge case that.

Of course it can happen if you hit it with Venture.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #32 on: May 12, 2016, 09:45:19 am »
0

Gosh. A reason to play Venture before your basic treasures, rather than as an afterthought. You don't want to draw Crown dead.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #33 on: May 12, 2016, 09:59:24 am »
0

Gosh. A reason to play Venture before your basic treasures, rather than as an afterthought. You don't want to draw Crown dead.
Simmilar thing with counterfiet,  if you want to double a treasure.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #34 on: May 12, 2016, 10:00:10 am »
+16

Funny interactions with Ruins. 
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #35 on: May 12, 2016, 10:04:26 am »
+3

Enchantress!

« Last Edit: May 12, 2016, 12:11:44 pm by E.Honda »
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #36 on: May 12, 2016, 10:04:31 am »
0

Gosh. A reason to play Venture before your basic treasures, rather than as an afterthought.
Counterfeit already gave you that reason.

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #37 on: May 12, 2016, 10:12:47 am »
0

Ooooh this is super cool. I take it this doesn't affect duration effects from cards played on previous turns, but it would affect anything Princed?

Correct. It affects the first Action card you play in a turn, one way or the other. If you played no cards in your Action phase, it could even affect a Crown played in your Buy phase, come to think of it.

If you started with the Crown in your hand, then it's always better to play it in your action phase. Edge case that.

Of course it can happen if you hit it with Venture.

I don't know, I think I'd be more likely to crown a Gold than a Chapel or Remake.

So Enchantress, I really like the theme relation to Circe. And maybe the Thor comic series?

The effect seems pretty devastating early on. I feel it's presence makes it more enticing to open double Steward or double Swindler in cases where I might otherwise only open with one, rather than trying to resist the effect by say getting more Silver. It's so important to play key cards that you should be overbuying them against Enchantress rather than getting your only copy of your power card countered.

I feel like Adventures provides good ways to get high action density early to protect against this (plus the events and tokens are unaffected). Stonemason is a great defense too. Looking at Empires, Enchantress seems very powerful against debt cards. Suddenly that early Royal Blacksmith which led to having $8 in debt doesn't sound so good when it can get enchanted on the next shuffle.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #38 on: May 12, 2016, 10:15:56 am »
+1

Ooooh this is super cool. I take it this doesn't affect duration effects from cards played on previous turns, but it would affect anything Princed?

Correct. It affects the first Action card you play in a turn, one way or the other. If you played no cards in your Action phase, it could even affect a Crown played in your Buy phase, come to think of it.

If you started with the Crown in your hand, then it's always better to play it in your action phase. Edge case that.

Of course it can happen if you hit it with Venture.

Just edge cased it myself. If you play it in your buy phase and buy a Villa, then it didn't use an action, so you can play more action cards later in that turn.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #39 on: May 12, 2016, 10:16:55 am »
0

A preview posted before I woke up!?  Land sakes!
In my case, it was posted before I went to bed, so that worked out well for me too!
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #40 on: May 12, 2016, 10:19:39 am »
0

Many cheaper attacks are either pretty weak (Fortune Teller, Spy) or really strong (Ambassador, Swindler). I think Enchantress finds a very good balance here; it will be pretty strong on some boards, but ignorable on others.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #41 on: May 12, 2016, 10:22:55 am »
0

Gosh. A reason to play Venture before your basic treasures, rather than as an afterthought.
Counterfeit already gave you that reason.
Read the post 3 posts before this.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #42 on: May 12, 2016, 10:29:20 am »
+2

Gosh. A reason to play Venture before your basic treasures, rather than as an afterthought.
Counterfeit already gave you that reason.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #43 on: May 12, 2016, 10:34:42 am »
0

Just some rules clarification: If you play BoM as your first action, do you get choose whether Enchantress's on-play effect (changing to cantrip) or BoM's on-play effect resolves first?
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #44 on: May 12, 2016, 10:38:10 am »
0

I feel like one of the biggest impacts of this is against big money decks, which usually rely on one or two strong actions in their deck to really boost them. All of a sudden, with an engine playing an enchantress every turn, the big money player has to collide 2 actions to do anything, which can be really difficult.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #45 on: May 12, 2016, 10:39:51 am »
0

Just some rules clarification: If you play BoM as your first action, do you get choose whether Enchantress's on-play effect (changing to cantrip) or BoM's on-play effect resolves first?

Huh, I'm not sure. I guess it only matters if you want to play Band of Misfits as a card that has Adventures tokens on its pile.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #46 on: May 12, 2016, 10:41:42 am »
+2

Just some rules clarification: If you play BoM as your first action, do you get choose whether Enchantress's on-play effect (changing to cantrip) or BoM's on-play effect resolves first?

My guess would be that you play the thing you select with BoM, and then that Action's text gets replaced by +1 Action, +1 Card.  That's going by the 'you never played BoM, you played that other thing instead' explanation of how BoM works.

Just some rules clarification: If you play BoM as your first action, do you get choose whether Enchantress's on-play effect (changing to cantrip) or BoM's on-play effect resolves first?

Huh, I'm not sure. I guess it only matters if you want to play Band of Misfits as a card that has Adventures tokens on its pile.

Matters for below-the-line stuff.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #47 on: May 12, 2016, 10:46:40 am »
0

Just some rules clarification: If you play BoM as your first action, do you get choose whether Enchantress's on-play effect (changing to cantrip) or BoM's on-play effect resolves first?

Huh, I'm not sure. I guess it only matters if you want to play Band of Misfits as a card that has Adventures tokens on its pile.

Matters for below-the-line stuff.

Right, of course. Good call.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #48 on: May 12, 2016, 10:47:06 am »
+2

Just some rules clarification: If you play BoM as your first action, do you get choose whether Enchantress's on-play effect (changing to cantrip) or BoM's on-play effect resolves first?

Huh, I'm not sure. I guess it only matters if you want to play Band of Misfits as a card that has Adventures tokens on its pile.

So here is another bizarre ruling interaction question.

I think there was a semi-recent ruling that says Conspirator would count both BoM and the Action it became as played. Following from that, if you get to pick to resolve BoM's on play effect first, then choose a card, it would no longer be your first action played when you get to resolving the card you picked.

That however seems totally contrary to how you would expect things to work, so I assume that will not be the ruling.

It seems to me that Enchantress is higher priority here. It says that you get +1 card/action instead of what is on the card, and the stuff on the card is what lets BoM do its thing.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2016, 11:28:00 am by Deadlock39 »
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #49 on: May 12, 2016, 10:47:22 am »
+3

Just some rules clarification: If you play BoM as your first action, do you get choose whether Enchantress's on-play effect (changing to cantrip) or BoM's on-play effect resolves first?

My guess would be that you play the thing you select with BoM, and then that Action's text gets replaced by +1 Action, +1 Card.  That's going by the 'you never played BoM, you played that other thing instead' explanation of how BoM works.

The "you never played BoM" rule has been changed as a result of rules questions around getting token bonuses. The current rule is that you DID play BoM, as well as the card that it plays... so it counts for 2 cards played for Conspirator.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #50 on: May 12, 2016, 10:47:36 am »
+2

the Master had sent him down this highway with strict orders to squash anyone approaching.

Because you have to play Highway to get Prince of Giants? XD That's fantastic.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #51 on: May 12, 2016, 10:48:37 am »
0

Interesting that this is an attack that's pretty easy to help your opponent... they had terminal collision? You just saved them. Of course all attacks can theoretically end up helping your opponent, but this one seems a little less edge-casey.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #52 on: May 12, 2016, 10:48:44 am »
+1

Why would you get to choose anything with BoM. The thing that gets replaced is "Play this as if..." Thid doesn't happen, instead, +1 card, +1 action happens.

Can someone explain why Noble Brigand's when-played effect gets replaced though?
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #53 on: May 12, 2016, 10:51:08 am »
+9

Can someone explain why Noble Brigand's when-played effect gets replaced though?

Because it's exactly the same as all the other cards that have an implicit "when-played" (i.e. all the cards).
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #54 on: May 12, 2016, 10:51:49 am »
0

Well... I think it is the same reason.  When you play Noble Brigand, the part that says "when you play this" gets replaced with +1 card/action, so you get that instead.  If it was below a line you would probably get it.

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #55 on: May 12, 2016, 10:55:02 am »
0

But there are very few circumstances in which it's right to react to Enchantress with a Moat. Village, Moat and no other actions is the first that comes to mind.

BM-Moat
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #56 on: May 12, 2016, 10:56:08 am »
0

Just some rules clarification: If you play BoM as your first action, do you get choose whether Enchantress's on-play effect (changing to cantrip) or BoM's on-play effect resolves first?

My guess would be that you play the thing you select with BoM, and then that Action's text gets replaced by +1 Action, +1 Card.  That's going by the 'you never played BoM, you played that other thing instead' explanation of how BoM works.

The "you never played BoM" rule has been changed as a result of rules questions around getting token bonuses. The current rule is that you DID play BoM, as well as the card that it plays... so it counts for 2 cards played for Conspirator.

It makes sense, because BoM's wording is similar to Throne Room's.  All Action instructions have an implicit "when you play this" in front of them, so you do play Band of Misfits first.  Then BoM tells you to play itself (again) as a different card.  So you played two Actions.

By this logic, an Enchanted BoM only gives you +1 Card, +1 Action, and nothing else.

However, it would seem that Adventures token effects still happen, since they are not instructions on the card itself.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2016, 10:57:25 am by werothegreat »
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #57 on: May 12, 2016, 10:58:49 am »
0

The problem is that the "instructions" of a card aren't defined anywhere. To me, it makes the most sense to consider it anything on the card that isn't conditiopned by some "when...". 
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #58 on: May 12, 2016, 11:00:00 am »
0

The problem is that the "instructions" of a card aren't defined anywhere. To me, it makes the most sense to consider it anything on the card that isn't conditiopned by some "when...".

I'm guessing it's going to be defined in the rule book.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #59 on: May 12, 2016, 11:00:37 am »
+6

The problem is that the "instructions" of a card aren't defined anywhere. To me, it makes the most sense to consider it anything on the card that isn't conditiopned by some "when...".

Thinking of the on-play effect of Noble Brigand as being categorically distinct from that of every other card makes less sense to me...
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #60 on: May 12, 2016, 11:01:45 am »
0


Can someone explain why Noble Brigand's when-played effect gets replaced though?

Can you explain why you think it wouldn't? Keep in mind that Noble Brigand is one of those cards, like Nomad Camp and Envoy, whose wording is not completely technically correct. But it's on-play effect is intended t be exactly the same like every other card.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #61 on: May 12, 2016, 11:07:24 am »
+1

The problem is that the "instructions" of a card aren't defined anywhere. To me, it makes the most sense to consider it anything on the card that isn't conditiopned by some "when...".

Thinking of the on-play effect of Noble Brigand as being categorically distinct from that of every other card makes less sense to me...

It makes a lot of sense to me, since it's worded differently than every other card.

And why wouldn't the wording of Noble Brigand be technically correct? It does exactly what it says, it just does so with a different timing than other cards.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2016, 11:15:13 am by Watno »
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #62 on: May 12, 2016, 11:08:05 am »
+1

Just some rules clarification: If you play BoM as your first action, do you get choose whether Enchantress's on-play effect (changing to cantrip) or BoM's on-play effect resolves first?

My guess would be that you play the thing you select with BoM, and then that Action's text gets replaced by +1 Action, +1 Card.  That's going by the 'you never played BoM, you played that other thing instead' explanation of how BoM works.

The "you never played BoM" rule has been changed as a result of rules questions around getting token bonuses. The current rule is that you DID play BoM, as well as the card that it plays... so it counts for 2 cards played for Conspirator.

Ah, thanks.  We need a newsletter on this stuff.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #63 on: May 12, 2016, 11:16:04 am »
+2

The "you never played BoM" rule has been changed as a result of rules questions around getting token bonuses. The current rule is that you DID play BoM, as well as the card that it plays... so it counts for 2 cards played for Conspirator.

Yes, which means that BoM's play ability is timed just like any other play ability, so Enchantress will replace BoM's entire ability with "+1 Card, +1 Action".

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #64 on: May 12, 2016, 11:16:32 am »
+2

+1 just for the bonus fanfic.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #65 on: May 12, 2016, 11:19:46 am »
+3


Can someone explain why Noble Brigand's when-played effect gets replaced though?

Can you explain why you think it wouldn't? Keep in mind that Noble Brigand is one of those cards, like Nomad Camp and Envoy, whose wording is not completely technically correct. But it's on-play effect is intended t be exactly the same like every other card.

Just like on special Treasures (including Relic!), "when you play this" on Noble Brigand is timed just like any other play ability. It's not timed like when-play abilities like Reactions or Urchin.

"Instructions" on Enchantress clearly means the play ability, since it talks about the instructions you follow when you play the card.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2016, 11:24:10 am by Jeebus »
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #66 on: May 12, 2016, 11:23:19 am »
+3

The problem is that the "instructions" of a card aren't defined anywhere. To me, it makes the most sense to consider it anything on the card that isn't conditiopned by some "when...".

Thinking of the on-play effect of Noble Brigand as being categorically distinct from that of every other card makes less sense to me...

It makes a lot of sense to me, since it's worded differently than every other card.

And why wouldn't the wording of Noble Brigand be technically correct? It does exactly what it says, it just does so with a different timing than other cards.

As far as I can see, the only reason Noble Brigand explicitly states "When you play this" is because it has the exact same effect for "When you buy this." It would have taken way too much space to put the same effect above the line to use with the implicit "When you play this" that every single card has, as well as doubling all the text under a line along with "When you buy this." There was no way to list the on-buy effect without explicitly stating "When you play this." I don't see that as being any different timing than other action cards. I see that as being a requirement of the English language.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #67 on: May 12, 2016, 11:23:34 am »
+1

The problem is that the "instructions" of a card aren't defined anywhere. To me, it makes the most sense to consider it anything on the card that isn't conditiopned by some "when...".

Thinking of the on-play effect of Noble Brigand as being categorically distinct from that of every other card makes less sense to me...

It makes a lot of sense to me, since it's worded differently than every other card.

And wyh wouldn't the wording of Noble Brigand be technically correct? It does exayctly what it says, it just does so with adiffernet timing than other cards.

I think this perspective makes sense given that while-in-play effects are not replaced by Enchantress. That means there is some specific part of each card's text that constitutes an instruction, rather than the entire card text. It seems instruction needs a formal definition somewhere.

Noble Brigand's card text is really weird now that I think about it. It says do something when it is played, but it was already played by the time that instruction is reached. In theory, you can argue that Noble Brigand does nothing on play because you can't activate the when-played trigger when the card is already in play.

Well, if Noble Brigand's text has been confirmed to be an anomaly, there isn't much that can be done there.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #68 on: May 12, 2016, 11:25:53 am »
0


Can someone explain why Noble Brigand's when-played effect gets replaced though?

Can you explain why you think it wouldn't? Keep in mind that Noble Brigand is one of those cards, like Nomad Camp and Envoy, whose wording is not completely technically correct. But it's on-play effect is intended t be exactly the same like every other card.

Just like on special Treasures (including Relic!), "when you play this" on Noble Brigand is timed just like any other play ability. It's not timed like when-play abilities like Reactions or Urchin.

"Instructions" on Enchantress clearly means the play ability, since it talks about the instructions you follow when you play the card.

Where is this stated in the rules, or by Donald?
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #69 on: May 12, 2016, 11:26:42 am »
+1

Noble Brigand's card text is really weird now that I think about it. It says do something when it is played, but it was already played by the time that instruction is reached. In theory, you can argue that Noble Brigand does nothing on play because you can't activate the when-played trigger when the card is already in play.

f.ds: where common sense doesn't matter

(I know you're talking about an admittedly weird card situation)
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #70 on: May 12, 2016, 11:27:46 am »
+2

Fan fic plus a preview. Can't get better than this.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #71 on: May 12, 2016, 11:32:05 am »
0

Elestan, do you have a BGG account, or should somebody else cross-post this over there?
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #72 on: May 12, 2016, 11:33:27 am »
0


Can someone explain why Noble Brigand's when-played effect gets replaced though?

Can you explain why you think it wouldn't? Keep in mind that Noble Brigand is one of those cards, like Nomad Camp and Envoy, whose wording is not completely technically correct. But it's on-play effect is intended t be exactly the same like every other card.

Just like on special Treasures (including Relic!), "when you play this" on Noble Brigand is timed just like any other play ability. It's not timed like when-play abilities like Reactions or Urchin.

"Instructions" on Enchantress clearly means the play ability, since it talks about the instructions you follow when you play the card.

Where is this stated in the rules, or by Donald?

Oh man. I have a lot of these rulings sources, but not this one. He has stated it several times when it comes to Treasures. For Relic it's clearly implied in the Dark Ages rulebook. I suggest you search on BGG or in the rules forums for "Noble Brigand".

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #73 on: May 12, 2016, 11:40:01 am »
0

Like Action–Treasure, the concept of "attack that prevents opponents from using their Action cards" has floated around the fan cards forums a lot and always been dismissed for brokenness or making the game unfun. I'm glad Donald found a way to make the idea work.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #74 on: May 12, 2016, 11:45:15 am »
+1

The problem is that the "instructions" of a card aren't defined anywhere. To me, it makes the most sense to consider it anything on the card that isn't conditiopned by some "when...".

Thinking of the on-play effect of Noble Brigand as being categorically distinct from that of every other card makes less sense to me...

It makes a lot of sense to me, since it's worded differently than every other card.

And why wouldn't the wording of Noble Brigand be technically correct? It does exactly what it says, it just does so with a different timing than other cards.

The wording is incorrect because it does NOT have a different timing than other cards. All action cards have an implicit "when you play this" not written on them; Noble Brigand basically reads "when you play this, when you buy or play this, each other player..."
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #75 on: May 12, 2016, 11:52:08 am »
+2

The problem is that the "instructions" of a card aren't defined anywhere. To me, it makes the most sense to consider it anything on the card that isn't conditiopned by some "when...".

Thinking of the on-play effect of Noble Brigand as being categorically distinct from that of every other card makes less sense to me...

It makes a lot of sense to me, since it's worded differently than every other card.

And why wouldn't the wording of Noble Brigand be technically correct? It does exactly what it says, it just does so with a different timing than other cards.

The wording is incorrect because it does NOT have a different timing than other cards. All action cards have an implicit "when you play this" not written on them; Noble Brigand basically reads "when you play this, when you buy or play this, each other player..."

Yeah this is my understanding of the issue with Noble Brigand's text.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #76 on: May 12, 2016, 11:56:46 am »
0

I think the issue is rather you projecting this "When you play this..." onto other cards, instead of just executing all instructions with non specified timings when a card is played.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #77 on: May 12, 2016, 11:56:56 am »
0

The problem is that the "instructions" of a card aren't defined anywhere. To me, it makes the most sense to consider it anything on the card that isn't conditiopned by some "when...".

Thinking of the on-play effect of Noble Brigand as being categorically distinct from that of every other card makes less sense to me...

It makes a lot of sense to me, since it's worded differently than every other card.

And why wouldn't the wording of Noble Brigand be technically correct? It does exactly what it says, it just does so with a different timing than other cards.

The wording is incorrect because it does NOT have a different timing than other cards. All action cards have an implicit "when you play this" not written on them; Noble Brigand basically reads "when you play this, when you buy or play this, each other player..."

Yeah, Noble Brigand should probably have a dividing line. Although even if it did, Enchantress would still turn Noble Brigand into "+1 Card and +1 Action".
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #78 on: May 12, 2016, 11:57:35 am »
+1

I think the issue is rather you projecting this "When you play this..." onto other cards, instead of just executing all instructions with non specified timings when a card is played.

No, (almost) all Action cards have an implicit "When you play this,…"
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #79 on: May 12, 2016, 11:59:32 am »
+2

Elestan, do you have a BGG account, or should somebody else cross-post this over there?

I just posted it there...had to drop a lot of the formatting though.  :-P
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #80 on: May 12, 2016, 11:59:53 am »
0

Like Action–Treasure, the concept of "attack that prevents opponents from using their Action cards" has floated around the fan cards forums a lot and always been dismissed for brokenness or making the game unfun. I'm glad Donald found a way to make the idea work.

Most of them revolved around the idea of shutting down engines, while this one actually benefits them. So this is definitely more fun and balanced.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #81 on: May 12, 2016, 12:03:07 pm »
+1

Ooh, other fun fact, an opponent playing this can be the only way to give you more than 1 Action (like, the 'counter') if there's Throne/King's Court/Procession type card in a terminal kingdom.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #82 on: May 12, 2016, 12:04:33 pm »
+2

it's not, you need to play that TR/whatever first, so it doesn't double anything.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #83 on: May 12, 2016, 12:12:01 pm »
0

it's not, you need to play that TR/whatever first, so it doesn't double anything.

Ah, damn, you're right.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #84 on: May 12, 2016, 12:21:21 pm »
+2

I'm almost more excited about the formatting by Elestan than the actual card, and the card is simply fantastic. I'm going to study that format, and possibly copy it for any future card reviews I might do in the future.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #85 on: May 12, 2016, 12:22:35 pm »
+5

I just noticed that the pig's snout is ever so slightly leaning over the bar on top of the area with the card text.  This is the first Dominion art to break the fourth wall.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #86 on: May 12, 2016, 12:27:53 pm »
+2

Prediction: Enchantress will become one of the most hated attacks, in disproportion to how powerful it is.  Skipping an action you bought feels terrible.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #87 on: May 12, 2016, 12:41:30 pm »
0

This card is awesome. That's all I have to say.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #88 on: May 12, 2016, 01:14:07 pm »
0

The wording is incorrect because it does NOT have a different timing than other cards. All action cards have an implicit "when you play this" not written on them; Noble Brigand basically reads "when you play this, when you buy or play this, each other player..."

No, because on Noble Brigand the "when you play this" is not implicit.

It's basically, "When you play this, each other player... <dividing line> When you buy this, each other player..."
Just like Smithy is, "When you play this, +3 Cards."

Alternatively, you can drop "when you play this" from both.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2016, 01:15:25 pm by Jeebus »
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #89 on: May 12, 2016, 01:31:05 pm »
+9

Just some rules clarification: If you play BoM as your first action, do you get choose whether Enchantress's on-play effect (changing to cantrip) or BoM's on-play effect resolves first?
As of my latest rulings on Band of Misfits, you would not pick a card, you would just get +1 Card +1 Action.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #90 on: May 12, 2016, 01:38:06 pm »
+3

The wording is incorrect because it does NOT have a different timing than other cards. All action cards have an implicit "when you play this" not written on them; Noble Brigand basically reads "when you play this, when you buy or play this, each other player..."

No, because on Noble Brigand the "when you play this" is not implicit.

It's basically, "When you play this, each other player... <dividing line> When you buy this, each other player..."
Just like Smithy is, "When you play this, +3 Cards."

Alternatively, you can drop "when you play this" from both.

I don't think you're actually disagreeing with me; because I agree with everything you just said. My point about "when you play this, when you play this" wording was to show how Noble Brigand is not technically worded correctly/consistently, because if you did read it literally the same as you read other cards, that is the weird wording you would get.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #91 on: May 12, 2016, 01:39:59 pm »
+3

Cards you can now have in play while nothing is being resolved:

Island, Feast, Band of Misfits, Wine Merchant, Distant Lands, Embargo, Madman, Treasure Map (others?)

Now I can finally Scheme my Treasure Maps!

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #92 on: May 12, 2016, 01:56:09 pm »
+3

the Master had sent him down this highway with strict orders to squash anyone approaching.
Because you have to play Highway to get Prince of Giants? XD That's fantastic.

I knew that wouldn't slip past this crowd.  :-)
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #93 on: May 12, 2016, 02:06:36 pm »
0

Very interesting attack.  I think it's not going to be as harmful as it first seems; a possible counter is simply to buy more action cards.  You can afford a higher terminal density if your opponent is enchanting you.

As for the effect of the card itself, it seems a bit weak to me.  It does nothing for you on the turn it's played.  I guess +2 cards next turn is still pretty good for this cost though.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #94 on: May 12, 2016, 02:19:25 pm »
0

I'm guessing Enchantress affects the first Action opponents play on each of their turns?  So if they take extra turns, the first Action they play on each of them becomes a cantrip?
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #95 on: May 12, 2016, 02:22:08 pm »
+1

I'm guessing Enchantress affects the first Action opponents play on each of their turns?  So if they take extra turns, the first Action they play on each of them becomes a cantrip?

Correct.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #96 on: May 12, 2016, 02:25:57 pm »
0

Just some rules clarification: If you play BoM as your first action, do you get choose whether Enchantress's on-play effect (changing to cantrip) or BoM's on-play effect resolves first?
As of my latest rulings on Band of Misfits, you would not pick a card, you would just get +1 Card +1 Action.

Can you clarify on Noble Brigand?
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #97 on: May 12, 2016, 02:30:24 pm »
0

I'm guessing Enchantress affects the first Action opponents play on each of their turns?  So if they take extra turns, the first Action they play on each of them becomes a cantrip?

Correct.

Similarly, it sounds like an Enchantress played on the same turn as an Outpost ends the attack immediately, although it does get you 5 cards for your Outpost turn.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #98 on: May 12, 2016, 02:32:42 pm »
+1

Just some rules clarification: If you play BoM as your first action, do you get choose whether Enchantress's on-play effect (changing to cantrip) or BoM's on-play effect resolves first?

Huh, I'm not sure. I guess it only matters if you want to play Band of Misfits as a card that has Adventures tokens on its pile.

Matters for below-the-line stuff.

Right, of course. Good call.

I see a problem with the German translation of BoM. It says: "Choose an action card from the supply which costs less than this Band of Misfits. Perform the chosen card, as if you had played it. As long this Band of Misfits is in play, it counts as the chosen card."

The first sentence is missing in the Englisch original. It seems that Enchantress would prevent German BoM to choose a card, while it does not do this with the English BoM.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2016, 02:35:24 pm by King Leon »
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #99 on: May 12, 2016, 02:35:56 pm »
+1

Just some rules clarification: If you play BoM as your first action, do you get choose whether Enchantress's on-play effect (changing to cantrip) or BoM's on-play effect resolves first?

Huh, I'm not sure. I guess it only matters if you want to play Band of Misfits as a card that has Adventures tokens on its pile.

Matters for below-the-line stuff.

Right, of course. Good call.

I see a problem with the German translation of BoM. It says: "Choose an action card from the supply which costs less than this Band of Misfits. Perform the chosen card, as if you had played it. As long this Band of Misfits is in play, it counts as the chosen card."

The first sentence is missing in the Englisch original. It seems that Enchantress would prevent German BoM to choose a card, while it does not do this with the English BoM.

Despite other translations, all cards are played by the original English version.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #100 on: May 12, 2016, 02:37:36 pm »
0

Yeah, Noble Brigand should probably have a dividing line. Although even if it did, Enchantress would still turn Noble Brigand into "+1 Card and +1 Action".
I guess just sticking "When you buy this, play it immediately" under a line was considered and rejected for some reason?
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #101 on: May 12, 2016, 02:38:26 pm »
+4

Just some rules clarification: If you play BoM as your first action, do you get choose whether Enchantress's on-play effect (changing to cantrip) or BoM's on-play effect resolves first?
As of my latest rulings on Band of Misfits, you would not pick a card, you would just get +1 Card +1 Action.

Can you clarify on Noble Brigand?

If you look back at this post...

Can someone explain why Noble Brigand's when-played effect gets replaced though?

Because it's exactly the same as all the other cards that have an implicit "when-played" (i.e. all the cards).

...you'll see that Donald X voted it up.  I think that counts as a clarification on Noble Brigand.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #102 on: May 12, 2016, 02:44:48 pm »
+2

Yeah, Noble Brigand should probably have a dividing line. Although even if it did, Enchantress would still turn Noble Brigand into "+1 Card and +1 Action".
I guess just sticking "When you buy this, play it immediately" under a line was considered and rejected for some reason?

I obviously can't speak for any previous version or playtesting, but that wording would have actually changed the card behavior quite a bit. That changes actions played/in play for things like Peddler and Conspirator. It also changes being able to react to gaining it, such as top-decking or trashing it with Watchtower.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #103 on: May 12, 2016, 02:47:48 pm »
+2

Yeah, Noble Brigand should probably have a dividing line. Although even if it did, Enchantress would still turn Noble Brigand into "+1 Card and +1 Action".
I guess just sticking "When you buy this, play it immediately" under a line was considered and rejected for some reason?

Well, this would grant you an extra +$1 and allow others to use reactions, so it's not the same.  Also, because buying triggers before gaining, it could create weird situations with Trader or Watchtower.  Actually, I think doing this would technically cause you to obtain 2 copies of NB per buy (you buy it, triggering the on-buy which puts it into play, then you gain the next copy of it from the pile).  Weird, I know.

I was going to suggest this under the line: "When you buy this, follow its instructions.". Still grants that extra coin though.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #104 on: May 12, 2016, 02:50:47 pm »
0

A question that's just occurred to me...

Is it grouped as "...the first time each other player [plays an Action card on their turn], they.." or "...the first time [each other player plays an Action card] on their turn, they.."?

In other words, if I play Outpost (or Mission/Possession/etc.) does the Enchantress affect both the turns I take before your next turn, or just the first of them?
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #105 on: May 12, 2016, 02:56:32 pm »
+1

A question that's just occurred to me...

Is it grouped as "...the first time each other player [plays an Action card on their turn], they.." or "...the first time [each other player plays an Action card] on their turn, they.."?

In other words, if I play Outpost (or Mission/Possession/etc.) does the Enchantress affect both the turns I take before your next turn, or just the first of them?

Elestan answered this a few posts ago.

I'm guessing Enchantress affects the first Action opponents play on each of their turns?  So if they take extra turns, the first Action they play on each of them becomes a cantrip?

Correct.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #106 on: May 12, 2016, 03:02:10 pm »
+1

Thanks. I searched for "Outpost", "Possession" etc. before asking. Just my luck the previous question didn't mention any specific cards. D'oh!
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #107 on: May 12, 2016, 03:12:58 pm »
0

Thanks. I searched for "Outpost", "Possession" etc. before asking. Just my luck the previous question didn't mention any specific cards. D'oh!

Isn't that always the way it works? :)
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #108 on: May 12, 2016, 03:16:29 pm »
0

Just some rules clarification: If you play BoM as your first action, do you get choose whether Enchantress's on-play effect (changing to cantrip) or BoM's on-play effect resolves first?
As of my latest rulings on Band of Misfits, you would not pick a card, you would just get +1 Card +1 Action.

Can you clarify on Noble Brigand?

If you look back at this post...

Can someone explain why Noble Brigand's when-played effect gets replaced though?

Because it's exactly the same as all the other cards that have an implicit "when-played" (i.e. all the cards).

...you'll see that Donald X voted it up.  I think that counts as a clarification on Noble Brigand.

So now I would think that Enchantress doesn't replace anything and just adds +1 card, +1 action to every card's effect. That doesn't seem likely though.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #109 on: May 12, 2016, 03:18:13 pm »
+8

So now I would think that Enchantress doesn't replace anything and just adds +1 card, +1 action to every card's effect. That doesn't seem likely though.

Sure, if you ignore the card and make up your own.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #110 on: May 12, 2016, 03:29:55 pm »
+6

Just some rules clarification: If you play BoM as your first action, do you get choose whether Enchantress's on-play effect (changing to cantrip) or BoM's on-play effect resolves first?
As of my latest rulings on Band of Misfits, you would not pick a card, you would just get +1 Card +1 Action.

Can you clarify on Noble Brigand?

If you look back at this post...

Can someone explain why Noble Brigand's when-played effect gets replaced though?

Because it's exactly the same as all the other cards that have an implicit "when-played" (i.e. all the cards).

...you'll see that Donald X voted it up.  I think that counts as a clarification on Noble Brigand.

So now I would think that Enchantress doesn't replace anything and just adds +1 card, +1 action to every card's effect. That doesn't seem likely though.

It adds +1 card, +1 action, and a return statement.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #111 on: May 12, 2016, 03:39:11 pm »
0

What will happen, if I react to Enchantress with a Caravan Guard? Is Caravan Guard's effect resolved, before Enchantress' effect comes into play or after?
« Last Edit: May 12, 2016, 03:46:11 pm by King Leon »
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #112 on: May 12, 2016, 03:40:28 pm »
+4

What will happen, if I react to Enchantress with a Caravan Guard? Is Caravan Guards effect resolves, before Enchantress' effect comes into play or after?

It says the first time someone plays an action on their turn.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #113 on: May 12, 2016, 03:45:25 pm »
0

What will happen, if I react to Enchantress with a Caravan Guard? Is Caravan Guards effect resolves, before Enchantress' effect comes into play or after?

It says the first time someone plays an action on their turn.
Oh sorry, I did not read this ... Thank you.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #114 on: May 12, 2016, 04:03:46 pm »
0

I think a double enchantress opening will be fairly common.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #115 on: May 12, 2016, 04:06:12 pm »
+3

Great write up!

One thing that I really like about this card is how it can actually be helpful to the player getting attacked later in the game.  That chapel you have hanging around suddenly becomes a can-trip.  Or if you draw a hand with two terminals, fear not! Just play the least helpful one first and enjoy having an extra card.

Also, the pig in that art is too great.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #116 on: May 12, 2016, 04:09:36 pm »
+8

Can you clarify on Noble Brigand?
Noble Brigand says "when you play" because the text wouldn't fit on the card otherwise. It is functionally identical to "ability, dividing line, when you buy this ability."
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #117 on: May 12, 2016, 04:18:27 pm »
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Upon some reflection, I decided Enchantress should go in the same category as trashing attacks.

Imagine if knights, instead of trashing cards from the top of your deck, replaced them with cantrips.

Being attacked by Enchantress might actually help you if you have terminal collisions.  But come to think of it, couldn't being attacked by a knight do the same thing?
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #118 on: May 12, 2016, 04:39:15 pm »
0

I see a problem with the German translation of BoM. It says: "Choose an action card from the supply which costs less than this Band of Misfits. Perform the chosen card, as if you had played it. As long this Band of Misfits is in play, it counts as the chosen card."

The first sentence is missing in the Englisch original. It seems that Enchantress would prevent German BoM to choose a card, while it does not do this with the English BoM.

Enchantress also prevents the English version; see earlier comments about the new ruling on BoM.

However, you're right that the German version is different. It doesn't tell you to play the chosen card, so in effect you just play BoM, and then resolve the play ability of the chosen card without actually playing it. Which matters for Conspirator and (maybe) player tokens.

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #119 on: May 12, 2016, 04:39:44 pm »
+3

I guess just sticking "When you buy this, play it immediately" under a line was considered and rejected for some reason?
Having an effect when you buy a card works fine. Playing a card when you buy it means you played it (putting it into play) before gaining it, and may not even gain it. It's really wonky.

There was a lot of discussion of, could Noble Brigand be when-gain; Jester is an example of that being problematic. There was a version of Noble Brigand at one point that said, "when you gain this during your turn, play it." That gets rid of issues with e.g. Saboteur but leaves Jester.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #120 on: May 12, 2016, 11:41:37 pm »
0

I guess just sticking "When you buy this, play it immediately" under a line was considered and rejected for some reason?
Having an effect when you buy a card works fine. Playing a card when you buy it means you played it (putting it into play) before gaining it, and may not even gain it. It's really wonky.

There was a lot of discussion of, could Noble Brigand be when-gain; Jester is an example of that being problematic. There was a version of Noble Brigand at one point that said, "when you gain this during your turn, play it." That gets rid of issues with e.g. Saboteur but leaves Jester.

Man, then we would've had a (non-treasure) action card that could be played during your buy phase!
« Last Edit: May 13, 2016, 12:35:34 am by LibraryAdventurer »
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #121 on: May 13, 2016, 12:36:37 am »
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It looks to me like the wording of Enchantress would mean it would nullify everything on the first action played by other players, not just the on-play part.

It would be clearer if it said "Until your next turn, the first time another player plays an action card on their turn, they get +1 Card, +1 Action, instead of its on-play instructions." or "instead of its usual on-play effect."

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #122 on: May 13, 2016, 12:57:39 am »
+1

It looks to me like the wording of Enchantress would mean it would nullify everything on the first action played by other players, not just the on-play part.

It would be clearer if it said "Until your next turn, the first time another player plays an action card on their turn, they get +1 Card, +1 Action, instead of its on-play instructions." or "instead of its usual on-play effect."
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #123 on: May 13, 2016, 01:03:30 am »
+2

It looks to me like the wording of Enchantress would mean it would nullify everything on the first action played by other players, not just the on-play part.

It would be clearer if it said "Until your next turn, the first time another player plays an action card on their turn, they get +1 Card, +1 Action, instead of its on-play instructions." or "instead of its usual on-play effect."

"The first time another player plays an action card" phrase on the card governs when Enchantress has its effect - namely, when that card is played.  Not after it's been played, not when it's being bought or gained.  The text on the card never actually changes; Enchantress only overrides the card's instructions during that card's on-play resolution.  Which has the same outcome as saying you're only overriding it's on-play instructions.

Stretching to the edge of hypothetical edge cases, if the enchanted card happened to have below-the-line text that could somehow manage to be triggered during the resolution of Enchantress' "+1 Card +1 Action" substitute effect, then I might see an argument that under the current wording, Enchantress would negate those below-the-line instructions, while your proposed wording would not.  But I would be quite surprised if we ever saw such a card.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2016, 09:34:29 am by Elestan »
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #124 on: May 13, 2016, 05:15:20 am »
0

Such great card design and great artwork, the pig is super cute!

Want to start your KC-chain? Mwahaaha.
This can really hurt chains that hoped to start off with a single Village.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #125 on: May 13, 2016, 05:19:12 am »
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This can really hurt chains that hoped to start off with a single Village.

Well, if you have Village/Smithy in hand, just play your Smithy first and hope that you'll draw another one.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #126 on: May 13, 2016, 05:20:36 am »
0

Well, yeah, or play your Village and hope you'll draw a Village. ???

On the other hand, Looters get nerfed a tiny bit, because your Ruined Library just became a cantrip!
And so did your Ruined Village.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2016, 05:21:48 am by Davio »
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #127 on: May 13, 2016, 05:36:38 am »
+19

I hereby require that the new Online version change the affected card's art to a pig.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #128 on: May 13, 2016, 06:15:26 am »
+6

I hereby require that the new Online version change the affected card's art to a pig.
I would also use a "squeal" sound effect on mouse-over so you are reminded of the effect when you choose your first action card to play.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #129 on: May 13, 2016, 08:53:02 am »
+2

Just some rules clarification: If you play BoM as your first action, do you get choose whether Enchantress's on-play effect (changing to cantrip) or BoM's on-play effect resolves first?
As of my latest rulings on Band of Misfits, you would not pick a card, you would just get +1 Card +1 Action.

And what if you then call a Royal Carriage?
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #130 on: May 13, 2016, 09:22:28 am »
+2

Just some rules clarification: If you play BoM as your first action, do you get choose whether Enchantress's on-play effect (changing to cantrip) or BoM's on-play effect resolves first?
As of my latest rulings on Band of Misfits, you would not pick a card, you would just get +1 Card +1 Action.

And what if you then call a Royal Carriage?

Well, it isn't any "card until it leaves play" because that instruction was voided, but it's not the first time an Action was played this turn, so the cantrip instruction is gone, so I'd assumed that if you RC an E'd BoM, you'd get to emulate a card.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #131 on: May 13, 2016, 09:52:35 am »
+1

Just some rules clarification: If you play BoM as your first action, do you get choose whether Enchantress's on-play effect (changing to cantrip) or BoM's on-play effect resolves first?
As of my latest rulings on Band of Misfits, you would not pick a card, you would just get +1 Card +1 Action.

And what if you then call a Royal Carriage?

Well, it isn't any "card until it leaves play" because that instruction was voided, but it's not the first time an Action was played this turn, so the cantrip instruction is gone, so I'd assumed that if you RC an E'd BoM, you'd get to emulate a card.

Since RC says "Play the action again" as opposed to "Do the stuff you did again," and Enchantress says "The first time you play an action, do this other stuff instead" as opposed to "Pretend the card says this other stuff," then I'd concur with werothegreat.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #132 on: May 13, 2016, 09:58:18 am »
0

Just some rules clarification: If you play BoM as your first action, do you get choose whether Enchantress's on-play effect (changing to cantrip) or BoM's on-play effect resolves first?
As of my latest rulings on Band of Misfits, you would not pick a card, you would just get +1 Card +1 Action.

And what if you then call a Royal Carriage?

Well, it isn't any "card until it leaves play" because that instruction was voided, but it's not the first time an Action was played this turn, so the cantrip instruction is gone, so I'd assumed that if you RC an E'd BoM, you'd get to emulate a card.

Since RC says "Play the action again" as opposed to "Do the stuff you did again," and Enchantress says "The first time you play an action, do this other stuff instead" as opposed to "Pretend the card says this other stuff," then I'd concur with werothegreat.

Yeah, BoM never became the other card because, so it's just sitting there as a card with the normal BoM text. So playing it again should just be like playing a normal BoM for the first time normally.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #133 on: May 13, 2016, 11:39:53 am »
+1

Not to start a long esoteric discussion about this (really!), but I wonder about the timing of this.

It seems to have a when-play timing: "the first time each other player plays an Action..." seems to mean "when a player plays an Action for the first time". That's the same as Reactions and Urchin, which means before you resolve the played card. But in this case the effect is actually to do something instead of resolving the card. Obviously the intent is not to shift that to earlier so that an Enchanted Attack card is played for "+1 Card, +1 Action" before the other players React.

So as far as I can see, this is actually Dominion's first whenbefore-resolve ability. First you play the card, then any Reactions or other potential when-play abilities happen (Urchin could have except I don't think it's possible to have it in play when you play your first Action card), and then you resolve "+1 Card, +1 Action" instead of resolving the card.

EDIT: changed "when-resolve" to "before-resolve, since "when" means "after".
« Last Edit: May 15, 2016, 09:51:04 am by Jeebus »
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #134 on: May 13, 2016, 11:44:44 am »
0

Not to start a long esoteric discussion about this (really!), but I wonder about the timing of this.

It seems to have a when-play timing: "the first time each other player plays an Action..." seems to mean "when a player plays an Action for the first time". That's the same as Reactions and Urchin, which means before you resolve the played card. But in this case the effect is actually to do something instead of resolving the card. Obviously the intent is not to shift that to earlier so that an Enchanted Attack card is played for "+1 Card, +1 Action" before the other players React.

So as far as I can see, this is actually Dominion's first when-resolve ability. First you play the card, then any Reactions or other potential when-play abilities happen (Urchin could have except I don't think it's possible to have it in play when you play your first Action card), and then you resolve "+1 Card, +1 Action" instead of resolving the card.

Sorry, why before other players React?  This is correct, right? : I play a Witch as my first Action, and a lot of when-play stuff happens.  I played an Attack, so someone can reveal Moat, Horse Traders, etc.  I played a first-Action, so Enchantress kicks in.  I don't see how it matters whether those happen simultaneously or not, but if not there is maybe some resolution order.  I then go on to resolve the card and indeed it does +1 Card, +1 Action.

Edit: I guess it seems to me the timing should be when-Play, as you say.  Enchantress says 'the first time each other player plays an Action card', which seems equivalent to 'When another player plays an Action card, if that was the first Action card of their turn, then...'.  I'm not sure why it matters that the effect is to do something different than the normal resolving.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2016, 11:46:42 am by Witherweaver »
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #135 on: May 13, 2016, 12:00:21 pm »
0

Sorry, why before other players React?  This is correct, right? : I play a Witch as my first Action, and a lot of when-play stuff happens.  I played an Attack, so someone can reveal Moat, Horse Traders, etc.  I played a first-Action, so Enchantress kicks in.  I don't see how it matters whether those happen simultaneously or not, but if not there is maybe some resolution order.  I then go on to resolve the card and indeed it does +1 Card, +1 Action.

Yes, they would be simultaneous, which means we do them in player order. So first you would do Enchantress (+1 Card, +1 Action), then the others would React (and then you wouldn't resolve the actual played card). That timing doesn't seem like the intended one.

But if you mean that when Enchantress kicks in on when-play, it makes you later do +1 Card +1 Action, then yes... that works too, and I thought about it. It would mean that Enchantress, on when-play, sets up an ability to happen whenbefore you actually resolve the card a little later (after any Attacks Reactions). But that explanation seems unnecessarily complex: First I play Enchantress, setting up a when-play ability for your first Action card. Then that when-play ability sets up a whenbefore-resolve ability, and that whenbefore-resolve ability is to make you do +1 Card +1 Action. In the end the result is the same as saying that Enchantress sets up a whenbefore-resolve ability from the start, I think.

EDIT: changed "when-resolve" to "before-resolve, since "when" means "after".
« Last Edit: June 18, 2016, 10:40:34 pm by Jeebus »
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #136 on: May 13, 2016, 12:02:57 pm »
0

Sorry, why before other players React?  This is correct, right? : I play a Witch as my first Action, and a lot of when-play stuff happens.  I played an Attack, so someone can reveal Moat, Horse Traders, etc.  I played a first-Action, so Enchantress kicks in.  I don't see how it matters whether those happen simultaneously or not, but if not there is maybe some resolution order.  I then go on to resolve the card and indeed it does +1 Card, +1 Action.

Edit: I guess it seems to me the timing should be when-Play, as you say.  Enchantress says 'the first time each other player plays an Action card', which seems equivalent to 'When another player plays an Action card, if that was the first Action card of their turn, then...'.  I'm not sure why it matters that the effect is to do something different than the normal resolving.

That does bring up an interesting (and maybe obvious? and maybe already discussed?) point, though. Since Enchantress effectively changes the text of the first-played action, but not the type, it's quite possible that the card played becomes a cantrip attack, and other players may still react to it however they wish, which can be quite advantageous to the Enchantress-ing player.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #137 on: May 13, 2016, 12:06:31 pm »
+1

This makes me realize that, if you put the +1 card token on BoM, you get to draw the card before choosing which card you want BoM to be, right?
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #138 on: May 13, 2016, 12:11:04 pm »
0

Sorry, why before other players React?  This is correct, right? : I play a Witch as my first Action, and a lot of when-play stuff happens.  I played an Attack, so someone can reveal Moat, Horse Traders, etc.  I played a first-Action, so Enchantress kicks in.  I don't see how it matters whether those happen simultaneously or not, but if not there is maybe some resolution order.  I then go on to resolve the card and indeed it does +1 Card, +1 Action.

Yes, they would be simultaneous, which means we do them in player order. So first you would do Enchantress (+1 Card, +1 Action), then the others would React (and then you wouldn't resolve the actual played card). That timing doesn't seem like the intended one.

But if you mean that when Enchantress kicks in on when-play, it makes you later do +1 Card +1 Action, then yes... that works too, and I thought about it. It would mean that Enchantress, on when-play, sets up an ability to happen when you actually resolve the card a little later (after any Attacks). But that explanation seems unnecessarily complex: First I play Enchantress, setting up a when-play ability for your first Action card. Then that when-play ability sets up a when-resolve ability, and that when-resolve ability is to make you do +1 Card +1 Action. In the end the result is the same as saying that Enchantress sets up a when-resolve ability from the start, I think.

Oh, hm... a literal reading actually makes me kind of think that (+1 Card, +1 Action) is the when-play effect, the one you say is not as intended. 
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #139 on: May 13, 2016, 12:11:29 pm »
0

Sorry, why before other players React?  This is correct, right? : I play a Witch as my first Action, and a lot of when-play stuff happens.  I played an Attack, so someone can reveal Moat, Horse Traders, etc.  I played a first-Action, so Enchantress kicks in.  I don't see how it matters whether those happen simultaneously or not, but if not there is maybe some resolution order.  I then go on to resolve the card and indeed it does +1 Card, +1 Action.

Edit: I guess it seems to me the timing should be when-Play, as you say.  Enchantress says 'the first time each other player plays an Action card', which seems equivalent to 'When another player plays an Action card, if that was the first Action card of their turn, then...'.  I'm not sure why it matters that the effect is to do something different than the normal resolving.

That does bring up an interesting (and maybe obvious? and maybe already discussed?) point, though. Since Enchantress effectively changes the text of the first-played action, but not the type, it's quite possible that the card played becomes a cantrip attack, and other players may still react to it however they wish, which can be quite advantageous to the Enchantress-ing player.

Yes.  Though this is not dissimilar to playing an Attack that effectively does nothing, like a Sea Hag when all the Curses are gone.  Players can still react to it as normal.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2016, 12:12:45 pm by Witherweaver »
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #140 on: May 13, 2016, 12:35:59 pm »
0

This makes me realize that, if you put the +1 card token on BoM, you get to draw the card before choosing which card you want BoM to be, right?

Yes, based on the recent change for BoM rulings.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #141 on: May 14, 2016, 01:10:37 am »
0

This is my first preview set, so I'm just wondering if the colours are washed out intentionally - this card looks closer to a Treasure than the vibrant orange we usually have on Durations...
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #142 on: May 14, 2016, 01:58:31 am »
+2

This is my first preview set, so I'm just wondering if the colours are washed out intentionally - this card looks closer to a Treasure than the vibrant orange we usually have on Durations...

Donald mentioned an issue with the image compression for these preview images.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #143 on: May 14, 2016, 02:17:51 am »
+1

This is my first preview set, so I'm just wondering if the colours are washed out intentionally - this card looks closer to a Treasure than the vibrant orange we usually have on Durations...

Donald mentioned an issue with the image compression for these preview images.

Thanks for clearing that up.

I really love this new form of attacking, though: it might completely halt their engine for this turn; yet it just as equally might make them feel a little less horrible about terminal collision.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #144 on: May 14, 2016, 02:13:03 pm »
+2

I hereby require that the new Online version change the affected card's art to a pig.
I would also use a "squeal" sound effect on mouse-over so you are reminded of the effect when you choose your first action card to play.

This is the first time ever I would approve of a sound effect in Dominion.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #145 on: May 15, 2016, 11:02:22 am »
0

I don't think this has been mentioned. If you Throne Enchantress, it seems to give the other players +2 cards +2 actions for their first action card! Then you draw 4 cards.

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #146 on: May 15, 2016, 11:05:41 am »
+1

Fortunately, multiple Enchantress attacks do not stack.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #147 on: May 15, 2016, 11:10:58 am »
0

I only just realized, while it was mentioned earlier, that it would effect Crown during your buy phase, that's nuts!

The +Action still counts for Diadem, right?

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #148 on: May 15, 2016, 11:15:09 am »
0

Maybe I'm crazy but does anyone else think that ruins might be a counter for enchantress?
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #149 on: May 15, 2016, 11:20:52 am »
0

I only just realized, while it was mentioned earlier, that it would effect Crown during your buy phase, that's nuts!

The +Action still counts for Diadem, right?

I would guess so. And if you buy a Villa afterwards, you will have another Action to use.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #150 on: May 15, 2016, 11:26:17 am »
+1

Maybe I'm crazy but does anyone else think that ruins might be a counter for enchantress?

Marauder and Cultist will be a lot worse if you also have Enchantress, but I doubt you'll want to actually get Ruins yourself against Enchantress. You can usually get another cheap action thats better if it doesn't meet Enchantress instead.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #151 on: May 15, 2016, 12:07:50 pm »
+1

Maybe I'm crazy but does anyone else think that ruins might be a counter for enchantress?
Well, I wouldn't voluntarily gain Ruinses to counter Enchantress; most of the time you have a dud hand and no Enchantress is played. That sucks.
It is fun though to actually have a Ruins in hand when Enchantress is played.

And man, it just keeps getting better for Scout! Enchantress makes your Scout even better!
« Last Edit: May 15, 2016, 12:08:51 pm by Davio »
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #152 on: May 15, 2016, 12:45:37 pm »
0

Fortunately, multiple Enchantress attacks do not stack.

I guess you're responding to me. Saying that it doesn't "stack" is very different from saying that it gives a huge benefit to the other players. I just read that as "it has no further effect".

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #153 on: May 15, 2016, 12:51:49 pm »
0

I don't think this has been mentioned. If you Throne Enchantress, it seems to give the other players +2 cards +2 actions for their first action card! Then you draw 4 cards.

Surely you know, deep within your heart, that if you are instructed to do X instead of Y, and you weren't doing Y anyway because something else replaced it already, you don't do X.

EDIT: I see now. Yeah, you're correct, it doesn't stack at all.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2016, 12:57:03 pm by singletee »
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #154 on: May 15, 2016, 01:07:43 pm »
+6

Throne / Enchantress does not give other players +2 Cards +2 Actions for their first Action played.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #155 on: May 15, 2016, 02:05:59 pm »
+1

Fortunately, multiple Enchantress attacks do not stack.

I guess you're responding to me. Saying that it doesn't "stack" is very different from saying that it gives a huge benefit to the other players. I just read that as "it has no further effect".

Throned Enchantress sets up two future effects that will each modify what resolving the first action card per turn (by an affected player) will actually do.  When a player plays his first action, both future effects simultaneously try to make that modification.  They are applied one after the other (you can pick an order, but it doesn't matter).  The first one changes the resolution to "+1 Card, +1 Action"; the second one changes it to that again.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #156 on: May 15, 2016, 02:11:58 pm »
+1

Throned Enchantress sets up two future effects that will each modify what resolving the first action card per turn (by an affected player) will actually do.  When a player plays his first action, both future effects simultaneously try to make that modification.  They are applied one after the other (you can pick an order, but it doesn't matter).  The first one changes the resolution to "+1 Card, +1 Action"; the second one changes it to that again.

Warning: The following is completely irrelevant discussion of technicalities:
I don't think the effect is changed twice. Enchantress says you get +card/+1 action instead of following the instructions. Since you wouldn't follow the instructions due to the first Enchantress,
the second Enchantress' effect whiffs.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #157 on: May 15, 2016, 02:43:14 pm »
0

Yeah, Watno is correct. I knew it didn't change the ability, but rather told you to do something else and not do the ability. But I didn't think about the significance of "instead" meaning that you can't do something else unless you were already doing the first thing. (I mean, given "do as much as you can" it's not entirely clear without a ruling. I assume it's mentioned in the rulebook.)
« Last Edit: May 15, 2016, 02:47:01 pm by Jeebus »
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #158 on: May 15, 2016, 04:54:08 pm »
+4

It's like revealing a Trader multiple times for the same gain and expecting to gain all the Silvers.
Kind of.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #159 on: June 07, 2016, 04:03:01 pm »
0

Forget if this has been asked yet - does the Enchantress effect apply to extra turns other players take, such as via Outpost? Or just to the very first Action they play after you play Enchantress?
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #160 on: June 07, 2016, 04:21:01 pm »
+1

Forget if this has been asked yet - does the Enchantress effect apply to extra turns other players take, such as via Outpost? Or just to the very first Action they play after you play Enchantress?

Extra turns are also "their turns", so it applies. (I think it has been asked here.)

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #161 on: June 07, 2016, 04:36:19 pm »
+4

Forget if this has been asked yet - does the Enchantress effect apply to extra turns other players take, such as via Outpost? Or just to the very first Action they play after you play Enchantress?

Extra turns are also "their turns", so it applies. (I think it has been asked here.)

I'm guessing Enchantress affects the first Action opponents play on each of their turns?  So if they take extra turns, the first Action they play on each of them becomes a cantrip?

Correct.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #162 on: June 07, 2016, 07:58:45 pm »
0

Forget if this has been asked yet - does the Enchantress effect apply to extra turns other players take, such as via Outpost? Or just to the very first Action they play after you play Enchantress?

Extra turns are also "their turns", so it applies. (I think it has been asked here.)

I'm guessing Enchantress affects the first Action opponents play on each of their turns?  So if they take extra turns, the first Action they play on each of them becomes a cantrip?

Correct.

Wow, I'm absent-minded.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #163 on: June 15, 2016, 02:54:52 am »
+1

So, Enchantress looks like a sui-generis attack with a really oddball effect, but I just realized it's really just part of the Spy/Rabble family: it makes you miss using one of your good cards this shuffle.

I feel like the White Witch when she realized Aslan was really just a big cat under all that hair.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #164 on: June 15, 2016, 03:16:19 am »
+2

So, Enchantress looks like a sui-generis attack with a really oddball effect, but I just realized it's really just part of the Spy/Rabble family: it makes you miss using one of your good cards this shuffle.

I feel like the White Witch when she realized Aslan was really just a big cat under all that hair.

I think it would be better compared to a discard attack, since it neutralizes a card in hand rather than from the top of the deck.  In many ways, the attack is effectively: "Each other player discards an action card from their hand, then draws 1 card".  Of course there are some differences, e.g. Enchantress isn't stackable, the "discarded" card also can't be drawn again, accountability is built in without anybody revealing their hands.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #165 on: June 18, 2016, 12:52:13 am »
0

So, which Actions are totally immune to Enchantress? Highway, Groundskeeper, Great Hall—any I'm missing?
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #166 on: June 18, 2016, 12:56:15 am »
+1

So, which Actions are totally immune to Enchantress? Highway, Groundskeeper, Great Hall—any I'm missing?

Page.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #167 on: June 18, 2016, 02:58:47 am »
+1

So, which Actions are totally immune to Enchantress? Highway, Groundskeeper, Great Hall—any I'm missing?

Page.

Conspirator -- not immune, but in general I think Enchantress would help a deck with Conspirator more than it would hurt.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #168 on: June 18, 2016, 10:13:17 am »
0

So, which Actions are totally immune to Enchantress? Highway, Groundskeeper, Great Hall—any I'm missing?

Page.

Conspirator -- not immune, but in general I think Enchantress would help a deck with Conspirator more than it would hurt.

There are a few that don't really mind too much, either: Goons, Peasant, Princess, Haggler, Merchant Guild, Bridge Troll.  It can also be pretty nice to hold on to your Encampment if you don't have a Gold/Plunder in hand.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #169 on: June 18, 2016, 11:12:32 am »
+4

So, which Actions are totally immune to Enchantress? Highway, Groundskeeper, Great Hall—any I'm missing?

Ruined Library and Ruined Village. Unless you're getting into the extreme edge cases where an extra card or an extra action can hurt.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #170 on: June 18, 2016, 11:30:37 am »
+2

Moat is totally immune to Enchantress, not only in trivial the sense that it confers immunity, but that if you have a Moat in hand you want to be Enchanted, because that gives you the choice between +2 Cards and +1 Card, +1 Action.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #171 on: June 18, 2016, 10:32:24 pm »
0

Moat is totally immune to Enchantress, not only in trivial the sense that it confers immunity, but that if you have a Moat in hand you want to be Enchanted, because that gives you the choice between +2 Cards and +1 Card, +1 Action.

Not necessarily. If your hand is Village and Moat, then without enchantress, you could have a Laboratory if you want.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #172 on: June 18, 2016, 10:33:29 pm »
0

Enchantress makes Rebuild slightly worse.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #173 on: June 19, 2016, 12:06:58 am »
+2

Moat is totally immune to Enchantress, not only in trivial the sense that it confers immunity, but that if you have a Moat in hand you want to be Enchanted, because that gives you the choice between +2 Cards and +1 Card, +1 Action.

Not necessarily. If your hand is Village and Moat, then without enchantress, you could have a Laboratory if you want.

I think he is just saying that your opponent playing Enchantress improves your position if you have Moat in hand because you can chose to reveal or not based on your hand.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2016, 10:37:11 am by Deadlock39 »
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #174 on: June 19, 2016, 06:56:15 am »
0

Enchantress makes Rebuild slightly worse.

Whaaat? If the Engine plays Enchantress every turn, Rebuild is slightly worse than ultimate bm!
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #175 on: June 19, 2016, 08:40:01 am »
+1

Moat is totally immune to Enchantress, not only in trivial the sense that it confers immunity, but that if you have a Moat in hand you want to be Enchanted, because that gives you the choice between +2 Cards and +1 Card, +1 Action.

Not necessarily. If your hand is Village and Moat, then without enchantress, you could have a Laboratory if you want.

I think he is just saying that your opponent play Enchantress improves your position if you have Moat in hand because you can chose to reveal or not based on your hand.

Yeah I have no idea what I was thinking; having Village in hand doesn't change that you can still choose how to use Moat.
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