Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: 1 2 [All]

Author Topic: Gokodom IV this summer?  (Read 8980 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

2.71828.....

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1223
  • Shuffle iT Username: irrationalE
  • Respect: +1278
    • View Profile
Gokodom IV this summer?
« on: February 12, 2015, 01:21:43 am »
+5

This is me just throwing out ideas, but I think that gokodom IV could totally happen this summer.  Obviously it can't happen anytime soon with League and World Cup going on, but I think forecasting it for June/July sign-ups/building interest/getting people to help Kirian organize stuff because it will probably be a massive tournament and starting in July/August seems reasonable.  Which also makes me posting this in February seem super early, but other people brought it up first and I got excited.
Logged
Man. I had four strips of bacon yesterday. Was one automatically undercooked, one automatically overcooked? No, let's put a stop to that right here, all four strips were excellent.

Heisenberg

  • Baron
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 59
  • I am the one who knocks!
  • Respect: +31
    • View Profile
Re: Gokodom IV this summer?
« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2015, 01:43:12 am »
0

Yes, and it would be even more interesting if it included the new Adventures Expansion.
Logged

AHoppy

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 978
  • Respect: +528
    • View Profile
Re: Gokodom IV this summer?
« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2015, 07:27:18 am »
0

I believe in previous tournaments we have actually excluded new expansions because not enough was known about them...

Anyway, I would totally play. One of my favorite things about Isodom/gokodom was the themed weeks, where half the cards in a set had to be from a certain expansion. It was interesting to see which expansions you were best with. Granted, that was much easier in Isodom...

AdamH

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2785
  • Shuffle iT Username: Adam Horton
  • You make your own shuffle luck
  • Respect: +3797
    • View Profile
    • My Dominion Videos
Re: Gokodom IV this summer?
« Reply #3 on: February 12, 2015, 09:31:14 am »
+3

I believe in previous tournaments we have actually excluded new expansions because not enough was known about them...

We'll just hope that MF includes the ability to select which of your sets you play with in your games, because you better believe I'm buying Adventures online and IRL the first chance I get.

I like the idea of having Adventures included, myself, but I realize this would give playtesters a huge advantage in the tournament. I remember after I had been playtesting for a while, more people were brought on so more games could be played. There was a period of a couple of weeks where I was consistently beating players who were much, much better than me just because I had more time with the new cards than they did. That didn't last long :P

I don't think the League was intended to be done instead of big tournaments like GokoDom, GokoDom and the F.DS Championships brought in a different crowd of people than the League does, and I actually enjoy the format more. That plus making the finals of GD3 was probably the best experience I've ever had playing Dominion, given that it led (in part) to me being a playtester for the new set.

I wonder if it's possible for the League to take some time off to do GokoDom or something similar again?
Logged
I respond to PMs.

jsh357

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2566
  • Shuffle iT Username: jsh357
  • Respect: +4298
    • View Profile
    • JSH Gaming: Original games
Re: Gokodom IV this summer?
« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2015, 09:33:13 am »
+2

I would prefer smaller tournaments than the League to happen once in a while.  I like to play in them, but the League is just so much commitment. There are probably players who can't keep the scheduling up consistently.
Logged
Join the Dominion community Discord channel! Chat in text and voice; enter dumb tournaments; spy on top players!

https://discord.gg/2rDpJ4N

AHoppy

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 978
  • Respect: +528
    • View Profile
Re: Gokodom IV this summer?
« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2015, 10:03:31 am »
0

I would prefer smaller tournaments than the League to happen once in a while.  I like to play in them, but the League is just so much commitment. There are probably players who can't keep the scheduling up consistently.
This is why I dropped out of league part way through season 3 I think it was.  The times I was actually able to schedule with people, they weren't able to do, and when they were, one of us would forget and so nothing got done. 

AHoppy

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 978
  • Respect: +528
    • View Profile
Re: Gokodom IV this summer?
« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2015, 10:04:15 am »
0

Also, Adam, can't you just start casual games and put a string in there (using the extension...) that only selects certain cards or something?

AdamH

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2785
  • Shuffle iT Username: Adam Horton
  • You make your own shuffle luck
  • Respect: +3797
    • View Profile
    • My Dominion Videos
Re: Gokodom IV this summer?
« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2015, 11:01:36 am »
+1

Also, Adam, can't you just start casual games and put a string in there (using the extension...) that only selects certain cards or something?

Yeah you can but it gets messy when tournament rules require you to have Salvager, you potentially shut out people who don't want to play with the extension (like WW) and you have to teach people like me how to use the Kingdom Generator properly.

It can be done but it would be much cleaner if it was part of the normal interface. Right now I'm in Assume-MF-Delivers-Adventures-And-The-New-Revamped-Version-Of-Dominion-By-The-Time-Adventures-Is-Released-And-Then-Be-Disappointed-When-They-Don't mode, so of course it will get done! ;D
Logged
I respond to PMs.

-Stef-

  • 2012 & 2016 DS Champion
  • *
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 1564
  • Respect: +4338
    • View Profile
Re: Gokodom IV this summer?
« Reply #8 on: February 12, 2015, 11:02:35 am »
+3

I would prefer smaller tournaments than the League to happen once in a while.  I like to play in them, but the League is just so much commitment. There are probably players who can't keep the scheduling up consistently.
I very much agree with this, but I don't get at all why you mention it here.
Both Gokodom and the f.ds championship were far more of a time-commitment for me then a season of the League (as a player that is).
First of all you have the reduced flexibility (need to schedule every week) and second it's just more weeks. I guess that's not true if you just get kicked out soon but that didn't happen for me.
More importantly: I don't like the very long stage of such tournaments where I play much weaker opponents and I can't actually "win" mentally. All I can accomplish is not-lose.

If you would use the same argument to advocate more one-day cups, I'd totally agree. They were fun.


I wonder if it's possible for the League to take some time off to do GokoDom or something similar again?
I'm willing to put anything to a vote, and if the majority of league players vote for it go with it.
Personally, I would strongly be against it though. I'd much rather see Kirian join the league organisation if he wants to do another tournament.
Gokodom was great, when the alternative was not-Gokodom. But I'd much rather do another league season then play in gokodom.

...and I actually enjoy the format more...
Could you elaborate on that? I really don't get it. Literally the only argument I see in favor of Gokodom is "let's relive the good old times".
I know it's a strange thing to say to the person that made it to the finals, but I would consider it a flaw in the setup that someone who is nowhere near the 2nd strongest person in the tournament makes it to the finals. You may consider it "boring" that the league only has had two different winners so far, but I consider that a big compliment to the system.
Logged
Join the Dominion League!

AdamH

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2785
  • Shuffle iT Username: Adam Horton
  • You make your own shuffle luck
  • Respect: +3797
    • View Profile
    • My Dominion Videos
Re: Gokodom IV this summer?
« Reply #9 on: February 12, 2015, 11:29:31 am »
+3

...and I actually enjoy the format more...
Could you elaborate on that? I really don't get it. Literally the only argument I see in favor of Gokodom is "let's relive the good old times".
I know it's a strange thing to say to the person that made it to the finals, but I would consider it a flaw in the setup that someone who is nowhere near the 2nd strongest person in the tournament makes it to the finals. You may consider it "boring" that the league only has had two different winners so far, but I consider that a big compliment to the system.

So the specific thing I was referring to there is that I think I'd get more enjoyment out of the League if you had to do one match per week, and you were forced to pace your games througout the season. I realize that this is probably weird and it seems better to give people flexibility, but people like this do exist. In GokoDom you had to do one match per week because of the format of the tournament.

It seems that someone like you who is just really really good wouldn't enjoy GokoDom for the reasons you said, but that doesn't mean other people wouldn't enjoy it. If the goal of the tournament is to find the best player competing in it, then yeah the League format is probably best at that because it minimizes the effect of upsets. And I also think that really really good players have more fun doing it. But something else that doesn't do that will result in a different style of tournament where there's more excitement. Someone like me can be playing well and get the spotlight and be the underdog and have their chance to take down one of the big dogs where they wouldn't otherwise have it, and that can be really exciting to be a part of or to watch on a live stream.

"Exciting" vs. "boring" matches probably don't resonate with a really really good player, and it probably shouldn't, but it might with someone like me. If I played you in a GokoDom match, say in the finals, I'm really excited about that match because either I win and it's a huge deal for me or I lose and I just got crushed by someone really good and I probably learned a lot from it -- I had both of those experiences in GD3 and they both felt amazing. But the people I was playing didn't really have any upside -- like you said, all they can do is "not lose." In the League, if I was in division A and I won a match, big deal, my job is far from done before anything cool happens to me. I have to be really really good and consistent to get to the top.

I don't think the League should change, and I think the League is better at measuring skill, but I had way more viewers on my stream for my matches in the GD3 finals (even when streaming was just getting started) then I think we've ever had for a League Champion match. Just a different perspective.

I think there's probably a place for both styles of tournaments and we shouldn't have to choose between them, but that's me.
Logged
I respond to PMs.

Mic Qsenoch

  • 2015 DS Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1665
  • Respect: +4240
    • View Profile
Re: Gokodom IV this summer?
« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2015, 11:44:39 am »
+3

In practice no weak players make it to the finals of these things:

last f.DS champ: Me vs. Stef
Gokodom I: Me vs. DG
Gokodom II: WW vs SCSN
Gokodom III: jog vs AI

These tournaments do a fine job of identifying a strong champion.

And if "weaker" players make it to the quarterfinals or semifinals I consider that a feature not a bug, but even this is pretty rare. You can be confident with enough participants that anyone who advances far has put up a strong performance.

I find the tournaments with eliminations to be exciting, I really like the chance for upsets etc. But I agree that the league has a big advantage in ease of scheduling (which makes me prefer it right now).

On "not losing" vs "winning", this just seems like a mental issue in the same class as being overly upset at losses. There are a large number of players at a wide range of levels who are capable of playing a series of Dominion games with high skill, it's not shameful to lose and it's still an accomplishment to win. I understand the sentiment, but I would try not to let it ruin my enjoyment of a tournament.

Another One Day Cup would be awesome and I may organize one if it seems like there's interest (not sure when though).

PPE: Not all strong players prefer "dry" tournaments!
Logged

-Stef-

  • 2012 & 2016 DS Champion
  • *
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 1564
  • Respect: +4338
    • View Profile
Re: Gokodom IV this summer?
« Reply #11 on: February 12, 2015, 12:09:59 pm »
+1

I don't like you two trying to put the league down as boring and a knockout as exciting.

I don't consider beating up a level 15 player exciting at all.
And I don't consider a level 15 player beating me off a cultist chapel opening with my chapel missing the shuffle exciting either.
I don't even consider me making a comeback after my chapel opening missing the shuffle because my opponent completely misplays the endgame exciting.
I do consider the very close matches against high skilled opponents I get to play in the league exciting.

In the league, I get to lose a match and still win the tournament. It doesn't help my chances, but it's still possible. I think that's a great feature of the league given the very nature of Dominion.
Logged
Join the Dominion League!

Mic Qsenoch

  • 2015 DS Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1665
  • Respect: +4240
    • View Profile
Re: Gokodom IV this summer?
« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2015, 12:38:23 pm »
+4

Sorry, I don't mean to imply the league is boring (I only said "dry" and put it in quotes but maybe I needed a winky face as well).

But, there is an element of excitement for spectators and the weaker player when upsets happen. If you're the strong player it sucks, but it doesn't hurt to consider everyone else's perspective and realize that it does indeed make someone happy. There's an element of excitement when each match can result in elimination and it could be the last games each player sees in the tournament. The league doesn't have these things, some people like them. If you hate these things then the league is perfect.

I think you exaggerate and idealize the high level matches. I think high quality matches happen even at something like levels 50 vs mid 20s.

I really appreciate the league, think it's fantastic and am grateful for your initiative in setting it up and running it (and everyone else who helps).
Logged

AdamH

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2785
  • Shuffle iT Username: Adam Horton
  • You make your own shuffle luck
  • Respect: +3797
    • View Profile
    • My Dominion Videos
Re: Gokodom IV this summer?
« Reply #13 on: February 12, 2015, 12:41:37 pm »
+2

I'm not trying to put the league down, and I never said it was boring.

I also don't expect you to agree with me when I say that there are other exciting things in Dominion besides what you find exciting. I understand why you feel the way you do, but you didn't understand why anyone would feel any differently so I tried to explain it. It looks like you just took it personally.

If I didn't like the League, I wouldn't have participated in 6 seasons of it and I wouldn't be helping out with running it. I just like other things too, that's all.
Logged
I respond to PMs.

HiveMindEmulator

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2222
  • Respect: +2089
    • View Profile
Re: Gokodom IV this summer?
« Reply #14 on: February 12, 2015, 12:51:48 pm »
+1

Both formats have their merits and it would be nice to be able to have both, though I guess that puts a lot of stress on people who are in both to schedule 2 matches per week...

League is nice for allowing you to play a lot of matches against people of similar skill to you, so it's better for you as a player. But the allure of the tournament is that it's more interesting for people who aren't even in it. You get that bracket and try to predict winners and there's a sense of build-up. And if you're in it, you can see a more direct effect of other people's matches on you, so you have a greater investment in games that don't involve you. It's a completely different meta-experience so you trade off some quality of games for external interest. Obviously people weight these benefits differently, so I doubt anyone is going to convince anyone else that one format is objectively "better" than the other.

There should probably some sort of poll of the people in League to see if they want to pause for a tournament or not.
Logged

-Stef-

  • 2012 & 2016 DS Champion
  • *
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 1564
  • Respect: +4338
    • View Profile
Re: Gokodom IV this summer?
« Reply #15 on: February 12, 2015, 01:13:12 pm »
0

I also don't expect you to agree with me when I say that there are other exciting things in Dominion besides what you find exciting. I understand why you feel the way you do, but you didn't understand why anyone would feel any differently so I tried to explain it. It looks like you just took it personally.
This is starting to confuse me - what exactly do I disagree with?
I do agree with the concept of other people having different ideas about exciting then I do.
I think I can understand their motives, but that doesn't make me agree with them. Not at all actually.
But as I said before - I'm totally willing to put it to a vote and go with the majority. Even if that involves pausing the league for 2 months.

There's an element of excitement when each match can result in elimination and it could be the last games each player sees in the tournament. The league doesn't have these things, some people like them. If you hate these things then the league is perfect.
I won't go so far as saying I hate them. I loved playing in those tournaments. But they also had disadvantages, and not being allowed to lose a match is the major one if you ask me.

I think you exaggerate and idealize the high level matches. I think high quality matches happen even at something like levels 50 vs mid 20s.
I don't think I exaggerated it. The only reason those games can get close is either a lot of bad luck on one side or a board where the dominating strategy involves only 2-3 kingdom cards and therefore is super default.
This is the kind of board that makes me love this game. There's just no way I get to play a close game on a board like that against a level 20 opponent. I don't mind playing a game Hunting Party-Baron in between, but mostly because they're quick anyway and who knows - maybe a gem like that one will show up on the next board.
Logged
Join the Dominion League!

Awaclus

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10773
  • Shuffle iT Username: Awaclus
  • (。 ω 。`)
  • Respect: +11339
    • View Profile
Re: Gokodom IV this summer?
« Reply #16 on: February 12, 2015, 01:27:12 pm »
+5

Why should you pause the League? People can just drop out for one or two seasons if they want to play in the GokoDom but can't play in both GokoDom and the League. Other people might want to play in the League but not in the GokoDom, or both, and it would kind of suck for them if the League was paused.
Logged
Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

The Twitch channel where I stream DominionThe YouTube channel where I make musicDownload my band's albums for free

AdamH

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2785
  • Shuffle iT Username: Adam Horton
  • You make your own shuffle luck
  • Respect: +3797
    • View Profile
    • My Dominion Videos
Re: Gokodom IV this summer?
« Reply #17 on: February 12, 2015, 01:52:18 pm »
0

This is starting to confuse me - what exactly do I disagree with?

The things that we find exciting about playing/watching Dominion. In your list, this is the only one I disagreed with:

I don't even consider me making a comeback after my chapel opening missing the shuffle because my opponent completely misplays the endgame exciting.

Comebacks are exciting to me pretty much no matter what the circumstances, though it would be more exciting if it was because of a different or superior strategy.


As for pausing the League, well that was discussed here too, and the World Cup seems to be doing OK I guess. I probably shouldn't have brought it up again, there doesn't seem to be any harm in letting each person choose whether or not they want to do both.
Logged
I respond to PMs.

theright555J

  • Moneylender
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 171
  • Dragged into engines kicking and screaming!
  • Respect: +171
    • View Profile
Re: Gokodom IV this summer?
« Reply #18 on: February 12, 2015, 02:54:56 pm »
+3

This strikes me as a bit of an American thing as opposed to a European thing...if you look at all of the major American sports, almost nobody who follows the sport seriously even cares if a team is highly skilled and wins the league title (regular season), but it's all about the playoffs. In fact, coaches/teams that consistently outperform during the regular season but lose to an upset in the playoffs are viewed as "chokers", yet scrappy upstarts that roar through the postseason (possibly getting really lucky) and win the championship are, well, the winners. Even Major League Baseball, with its very long and drawn out regular season, ultimately only cares about who wins the World Series. And the super-popular NFL, with a one-game-winner-takes-all playoff format, is wildly popular because of the excitement introduced by the variance.

One of the things I like about the Dominion League is that it's more European than what I'm typically used to in the States, and guarantees me 5 matches with much less pressure than a knockout tournament.  I would certainly participate in both formats if available.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2015, 04:43:26 pm by theright555J »
Logged
Wondering what my name refers to?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cribbage_statistics

BraveBear

  • Bishop
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 107
  • Respect: +97
    • View Profile
Re: Gokodom IV this summer?
« Reply #19 on: February 13, 2015, 10:41:24 am »
+2

Gokodom III was great for me!  It allowed me to face much better opponents then me (RTT,Qvist,yed).  There aren't many opportunities for a person who doesn't keep their rating up to play a high level opponents.  Gokodom allows this to happen which I think is a great thing.

I personally would love to see a Gokodom happen sooner then later. 
Logged

-Stef-

  • 2012 & 2016 DS Champion
  • *
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 1564
  • Respect: +4338
    • View Profile
Re: Gokodom IV this summer?
« Reply #20 on: February 13, 2015, 12:22:17 pm »
+3

So... I thought about this a bit more and I think my initial response was a bit off.
I still think the league is just a better tournament but I don't like the idea that it might have destroyed something a lot of people enjoyed.
I know it isn't really true because Kirian just ran out of time, but it still might feel that way.

I don't like running a league season simultaneously with a gokodom tournament. Sure people could sign up for whatever they want, but if you organize gokodom maximum attendance is a very nice thing. Also I don't think the format of the league handles it very well if a lot of players leave for one season and return in the next.
So if it is going to happen, I would be in favor of pausing the league during the swiss of the gokodom (think the league could continue during the knockout because that involves only very few players).

I might organize a vote at some point but with more then two choices that's complicated and let's first find out where this discussion is going.
Logged
Join the Dominion League!

SCSN

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2226
  • Respect: +7121
    • View Profile
Re: Gokodom IV this summer?
« Reply #21 on: February 13, 2015, 01:50:13 pm »
+1

So if it is going to happen, I would be in favor of pausing the league during the swiss of the gokodom

I would like another Gokodom but if this were the consequence I would really really dislike it, as I enjoy League games much more than GD Swiss games (which, in turn, I enjoy a bit more than just regular games). It's like shutting down iso to replace it with Goko.

I understand that you neither want to see a ton of people leaving the League nor be responsible for a low attendance of GD, but why not first investigate whether this would be a (significant) issue at all? Because I honestly don't think it will be. We have the WC and League running concurrently at the moment, and there aren't many people who are not playing in one because of the other. The WC is of comparable size to last year's, and I don't think a lot of people who left the League did so only to sign up for the WC and would have stayed otherwise.

My suggestion would be to hold something akin to the following poll:

1. I'm in the League and its getting paused would not affect my decision to join GD.
2. I'm in the League but would leave it to play GD.
3. I'm in the League and would only play GD if it gets paused.
4. I'm not in the League; I just like voting.

Ideally I'd only count votes from active players (say, participating in at least the last 2 consecutive seasons or in 3 of the last 4), because people who are dropping in and out tend to do so anyway, so no need to cater to their whims.
Logged

HiveMindEmulator

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2222
  • Respect: +2089
    • View Profile
Re: Gokodom IV this summer?
« Reply #22 on: February 13, 2015, 07:01:09 pm »
+2

^You're missing a couple (slightly less logical) options:

5. I'm in league but I will only play GD if the league is NOT paused.
6. I will quit league altogether if it is paused.
Logged

SCSN

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2226
  • Respect: +7121
    • View Profile
Re: Gokodom IV this summer?
« Reply #23 on: February 13, 2015, 07:27:47 pm »
+1

^You're missing a couple (slightly less logical) options:

5. I'm in league but I will only play GD if the league is NOT paused.
6. I will quit league altogether if it is paused.

Heh, I like to hold back on the blackmail tactics until they are actually needed. You can't shoot the same bullet twice and shooting it too early only erodes goodwill ;)
Logged

Monsieur X

  • Bishop
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 101
  • Respect: +86
    • View Profile
Re: Gokodom IV this summer?
« Reply #24 on: February 14, 2015, 04:45:38 am »
+1

Why not a Gokodom 4, i liked the 3rd one. If i have time between league matches i would like to play it.

But just a question : Is the fds tournament dead? the last one was so long time ago (the only one i played)...
For me, its the mythical tournament and i feel that it will gradually disappear.

The tournament structure is nevertheless very exciting for both good players and less experienced players.
And that is the Big One!!!

 That's why I'm a little nostalgic that we organize a new gokodom, and would really prefer to play again this fds tournament!
Logged

Kirian

  • Board Moderator
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7073
  • Shuffle iT Username: Kirian
  • An Unbalanced Equation
  • Respect: +9314
    • View Profile
Re: Gokodom IV this summer?
« Reply #25 on: February 14, 2015, 11:24:29 am »
+4

I suppose I should likely weigh in on this, eh?

I realized several months back that the existence of the League put me in a bit of a bind.  I didn't want to step on toes by asking for a league hiatus--or by causing an exodus by creating GD4.  So I knew that I was going to have to plan a minimum of two months in advance.  (Consider that this thread is starting to plan 4 months in advance, and dealing with polling League participants.)

Because of my personal schedule, I don't currently have the ability to plan two months' worth of ten hours a week, and plan it three months in advance.  It's as simple as that.  But I can't really even guarantee I'd have time for the former even without the latter, so while the league was stopping me for a while, now it's just time in general.

While GokoDom has been sort of my personal demesne for a while, it's time to pass the torch.  There are several qualified candidates available and obviously plenty of interest, and I can hand you the spreadsheets and type up an explanation of how things go if you wish to maintain the same format.  So... I guess this thread is as good a place as any to tell me if you want to carry the torch, or if y'all want to form a group of some sort to do that.
Logged
Kirian's Law of f.DS jokes:  Any sufficiently unexplained joke is indistinguishable from serious conversation.

-Stef-

  • 2012 & 2016 DS Champion
  • *
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 1564
  • Respect: +4338
    • View Profile
Re: Gokodom IV this summer?
« Reply #26 on: February 16, 2015, 06:22:30 am »
+9

I'm willing to organize it, assuming I'll get some help.

"It" would be a big tournament in stead of a league season.
I'm very much open to the idea of making it a f.ds championship rather then a gokodom.
(Which basically means knock out from the start instead of Swiss followed by knock out.)

The reasoning behind that:
* if we want "excitement" over "fair" why not go all the way
* much more likely a lot of relatively weak players sign up, because there is no fear of something annoying that just drags on. You're guaranteed to either keep winning or it's just over.
* much easier to deal with players leaving halfway
* requires less effort / shorter break in the league

The argument against full knock out would be that it will be a short experience for some, but I think the league can provide a solution for people that run into that problem. Especially now that the E division seems to be working out.

In the meanwhile, please continue to give your opinion in this thread.
At some point there will be a vote / some voting, but then your opinion counts for only one.
Logged
Join the Dominion League!

Monsieur X

  • Bishop
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 101
  • Respect: +86
    • View Profile
Re: Gokodom IV this summer?
« Reply #27 on: February 16, 2015, 07:46:00 am »
+3

I know nothing about organizing tournaments, i'm bad in English and in "using computers".
If my skills profile interests you Stef, i'm ok to help!

I want a fds tournament alive!
Logged

liopoil

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2583
  • Respect: +2474
    • View Profile
Re: Gokodom IV this summer?
« Reply #28 on: February 16, 2015, 09:08:01 am »
+1

The f.ds first tournament that I ever participated in (and also the reason I joined the forums) had a loser's bracket. It was fun to get another chance after being paired against Marin first round. Sure, I lost the first round of the loser's bracket too, but still.
Logged

SCSN

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2226
  • Respect: +7121
    • View Profile
Re: Gokodom IV this summer?
« Reply #29 on: February 16, 2015, 10:10:26 am »
+2

* if we want "excitement" over "fair" why not go all the way

Single game knock-out, one round per day!
Logged

Mic Qsenoch

  • 2015 DS Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1665
  • Respect: +4240
    • View Profile
Re: Gokodom IV this summer?
« Reply #30 on: February 16, 2015, 10:11:29 am »
+2

* if we want "excitement" over "fair" why not go all the way

Single game knock-out, one round per day!

Swindler required!
Logged

WanderingWinder

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5275
  • ...doesn't really matter to me
  • Respect: +4359
    • View Profile
    • WanderingWinder YouTube Page
Re: Gokodom IV this summer?
« Reply #31 on: February 16, 2015, 10:39:01 am »
+9

* if we want "excitement" over "fair" why not go all the way

Single game knock-out, one round per day!

Swindler required!

We could go for "let's make Adam hate it" and require Knights, Tournament, Black Market, and Urchin.

Titandrake

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 2058
  • Respect: +2461
    • View Profile
Re: Gokodom IV this summer?
« Reply #32 on: February 17, 2015, 05:42:53 am »
+1

Double elimination seems like a good compromise between round robin and single elimination, especially if this becomes big. It is a bigger logistical nightmare to do this though, and grand finals could be tricky for Dominion. If someone resets the bracket both of the top 2 have to play 2 matches in a row, and that could be rough.

You could avoid that by switching to single elimination at some point. I'm thinking one of:

Small round robin groups where top X of each seed into a double elimination bracket.
Small round robin groups where top X of each seed into a single elimination bracket.
Double elimination groups where top X of each seed into a single elimination bracket.

seems most reasonable to me.
Logged
I have a blog! It's called Sorta Insightful. Check it out?

Burning Skull

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1126
  • Shuffle iT Username: Burning Skull
  • See you in the Outpost
  • Respect: +1782
    • View Profile
Re: Gokodom IV this summer?
« Reply #33 on: February 17, 2015, 07:47:29 am »
0

* if we want "excitement" over "fair" why not go all the way

Single game knock-out, one round per day!

I kind of like that idea: with that approach it is not guaranteed for the top tier player to win that, which makes it more fun for the rest.

Kirian

  • Board Moderator
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7073
  • Shuffle iT Username: Kirian
  • An Unbalanced Equation
  • Respect: +9314
    • View Profile
Re: Gokodom IV this summer?
« Reply #34 on: February 17, 2015, 08:36:09 am »
+1

Double elimination seems like a good compromise between round robin and single elimination, especially if this becomes big. It is a bigger logistical nightmare to do this though, and grand finals could be tricky for Dominion. If someone resets the bracket both of the top 2 have to play 2 matches in a row, and that could be rough.

You could avoid that by switching to single elimination at some point. I'm thinking one of:

Small round robin groups where top X of each seed into a double elimination bracket.
Small round robin groups where top X of each seed into a single elimination bracket.
Double elimination groups where top X of each seed into a single elimination bracket.

seems most reasonable to me.

Challonge, while crappy for Swiss tournaments, will take care of a large double elimination with few problems.
Logged
Kirian's Law of f.DS jokes:  Any sufficiently unexplained joke is indistinguishable from serious conversation.

Titandrake

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 2058
  • Respect: +2461
    • View Profile
Re: Gokodom IV this summer?
« Reply #35 on: February 18, 2015, 05:55:05 am »
0

Double elimination seems like a good compromise between round robin and single elimination, especially if this becomes big. It is a bigger logistical nightmare to do this though, and grand finals could be tricky for Dominion. If someone resets the bracket both of the top 2 have to play 2 matches in a row, and that could be rough.

You could avoid that by switching to single elimination at some point. I'm thinking one of:

Small round robin groups where top X of each seed into a double elimination bracket.
Small round robin groups where top X of each seed into a single elimination bracket.
Double elimination groups where top X of each seed into a single elimination bracket.

seems most reasonable to me.

Challonge, while crappy for Swiss tournaments, will take care of a large double elimination with few problems.

I think the possibility of having to do 2 sets for Grand Finals means you want to switch to single elim at some point anyways. You could say the winner's bracket gets to start with a free game, but I feel like that just patches the issue.
Logged
I have a blog! It's called Sorta Insightful. Check it out?

Kirian

  • Board Moderator
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7073
  • Shuffle iT Username: Kirian
  • An Unbalanced Equation
  • Respect: +9314
    • View Profile
Re: Gokodom IV this summer?
« Reply #36 on: February 18, 2015, 08:40:33 am »
0

Double elimination seems like a good compromise between round robin and single elimination, especially if this becomes big. It is a bigger logistical nightmare to do this though, and grand finals could be tricky for Dominion. If someone resets the bracket both of the top 2 have to play 2 matches in a row, and that could be rough.

You could avoid that by switching to single elimination at some point. I'm thinking one of:

Small round robin groups where top X of each seed into a double elimination bracket.
Small round robin groups where top X of each seed into a single elimination bracket.
Double elimination groups where top X of each seed into a single elimination bracket.

seems most reasonable to me.

Challonge, while crappy for Swiss tournaments, will take care of a large double elimination with few problems.

I think the possibility of having to do 2 sets for Grand Finals means you want to switch to single elim at some point anyways. You could say the winner's bracket gets to start with a free game, but I feel like that just patches the issue.

Then have eight smaller double elimination brackets, have the double win requirement at the end of each, then take the eight winners and move to single elimination.
Logged
Kirian's Law of f.DS jokes:  Any sufficiently unexplained joke is indistinguishable from serious conversation.

-Stef-

  • 2012 & 2016 DS Champion
  • *
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 1564
  • Respect: +4338
    • View Profile
Re: Gokodom IV this summer?
« Reply #37 on: February 18, 2015, 09:30:39 am »
+2

Double elimination tournament, although possible, is not what liopoil was referring to or how the f.ds championships used to work.
That was single elimination with an option for everyone who lost to continue playing in the losers bracket. You couldn't win the real title anymore but still have fun and perhaps become 'best of the rest'.

For me, the main reason I'd want this to happen is that it should be accessible to a lot of players that for a variety of reasons don't want to join the league.
I think a simple clean tournament structure that everybody understands should help with that. I'm willing to sacrifice quite a bit on the chance that the best player actually wins.

-> At this point I think single elimination, 1 round / week looks best. Any alternative has to be quite a bit better before I'd be willing to sacrifice simplicity.
Logged
Join the Dominion League!

Watno

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 2705
  • Shuffle iT Username: Watno
  • Respect: +2890
    • View Profile
Re: Gokodom IV this summer?
« Reply #38 on: February 18, 2015, 09:35:57 am »
0

I think I'd prefer some kind of format where you are guaranteed to play multiple matches.
Swiss with 1 round/week sounds pretty cool I think.
Logged

liopoil

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2583
  • Respect: +2474
    • View Profile
Re: Gokodom IV this summer?
« Reply #39 on: February 18, 2015, 09:36:29 am »
0

What I was referring to was indeed not double elimination, but I do support a full double elimination bracket with the winner of the normal bracket playing the winner of the loser's bracket, where the winner of the loser's bracket must win twice. Hopefully that is simple enough.
Logged

-Stef-

  • 2012 & 2016 DS Champion
  • *
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 1564
  • Respect: +4338
    • View Profile
Re: Gokodom IV this summer?
« Reply #40 on: February 19, 2015, 05:37:39 pm »
+4

I think I'd prefer some kind of format where you are guaranteed to play multiple matches.
Swiss with 1 round/week sounds pretty cool I think.
If guaranteed multiple matches is what you want, we already have a perfect solution: sign up for another season of the league.
This tournament is intended for people that are looking for something different.

I'm not saying I'm disregarding Swiss altogether, but it's going to take a different kind of argument then this one to convince me.
An argument that does not get answered by the thing we already have.
Logged
Join the Dominion League!

Titandrake

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 2058
  • Respect: +2461
    • View Profile
Re: Gokodom IV this summer?
« Reply #41 on: February 19, 2015, 05:53:18 pm »
+4

I would prefer double elim to single elim. This guarantees 2 matches per player but still makes it easy to deal with dropouts, and weaker players still fall out pretty quickly so they don't have to commit to playing many matches where they lose the majority of them.

Personally, I enjoy storylines where someone falls into loser's bracket early and storms all the way back, and requiring 2 upsets before a knockout gives a decent buffer.

Edit: I believe structure is fairly straightforward if you use Challonge, since it labels where the loser of each match will go.
Logged
I have a blog! It's called Sorta Insightful. Check it out?

Watno

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 2705
  • Shuffle iT Username: Watno
  • Respect: +2890
    • View Profile
Re: Gokodom IV this summer?
« Reply #42 on: February 20, 2015, 08:33:26 am »
0

I think I'd prefer some kind of format where you are guaranteed to play multiple matches.
Swiss with 1 round/week sounds pretty cool I think.
If guaranteed multiple matches is what you want, we already have a perfect solution: sign up for another season of the league.
This tournament is intended for people that are looking for something different.

I'm not saying I'm disregarding Swiss altogether, but it's going to take a different kind of argument then this one to convince me.
An argument that does not get answered by the thing we already have.

But the league kinda requires you to commit for a longer period of time than just one season.
Logged

-Stef-

  • 2012 & 2016 DS Champion
  • *
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 1564
  • Respect: +4338
    • View Profile
Re: Gokodom IV this summer?
« Reply #43 on: February 20, 2015, 08:49:39 am »
0

But the league kinda requires you to commit for a longer period of time than just one season.
I don't know where you got that impression, but it's not true. You are very welcome to sign up for just one season.
If you want to play in the succeeding season you have to explicitly state that you're staying. The default is that you're not staying.

I know it's not a guarantee, but so far I've been able to reinsert everyone who took a break at the level they were entitled to when they left. Everyone who signed up for the first time got inserted at a level that resembled their skill (except probably DG, but his position on the leaderboard was way off and I didn't know).
In fact, it's mostly due to the people leaving & (re)joining that there is some flexibility and I've been able to facilitate this.
Logged
Join the Dominion League!

BraveBear

  • Bishop
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 107
  • Respect: +97
    • View Profile
Re: Gokodom IV this summer?
« Reply #44 on: February 20, 2015, 11:00:18 am »
0

The point that Watno is trying to make I think is you can't "win it all" from just playing 1 season of the League.  You would have to play multiply seasons to promote to A.  Then be in the top 2 of A.

The main difference from the League and Gokodom (I've played in both) is the "feel."  The league in my eyes doesn't really feel like a tournament at all.  Its great at what it does, which is more or less a rating system.

I like the idea of a swiss start or a double elimination tournament.  Of course I would enter a single elimination trny at the drop of a hat.  I just think the league is so much different then a tournament already and shouldn't factor into discussion on how the next gokodom should be structured.
Logged

Watno

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 2705
  • Shuffle iT Username: Watno
  • Respect: +2890
    • View Profile
Re: Gokodom IV this summer?
« Reply #45 on: February 20, 2015, 11:16:08 am »
0

BraveBear is right about what I was meaning, though that point is invalidated a bit by the possibility of getting inserted higher up.
Logged

lespeutere

  • 2012 German Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 488
  • Respect: +390
    • View Profile
Re: Gokodom IV this summer?
« Reply #46 on: March 15, 2015, 03:17:08 pm »
0

Same here as MonsieurX, except for the fact that I do not consider my English that bad.  ;) Anyway, I'd be willing to help.
Logged

Zappie

  • Thief
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 95
  • Respect: +44
    • View Profile
Re: Gokodom IV this summer?
« Reply #47 on: March 15, 2015, 06:11:09 pm »
0

Now that the world cup has ended I thought that I might step out of online dominion, but if another fDs championships happens... -then I might just be able to convince my IRL group to join as well and contribute to the big tournament
Logged
Pages: 1 2 [All]
 

Page created in 0.15 seconds with 20 queries.