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[Aidan Millow]

I've been thinking about a set of 25 Dominion cards so as to give the 'best' selection of kingdoms from them (I'm sure this has already been discussed before but I had no idea where to look for it (and I don't think I've seen one since guilds came out)).  I don't actually want to make a real one and don't even have every set to do it, this is theoretical only.

Here's my first attempt, I've tried to get multiple choices for trashing, gaining, attacking, villages, +buy and terminal draw while also allowing a diverse range of strategies:

2: Cellar (1)

3: Watchtower, Oasis, Scheme, Forager, Doctor (5)

4: Militia, Gardens, Bridge, Conspirator, Mining Village, Caravan, Bishop, Talisman, Farming Village, Armoury (10)

5: Tactician, Bazaar, Apprentice, Jester, Haggler, Embassy, Catacombs, Soothsayer, Butcher (9)

I haven't playtested this but what do people think? Is there anything that really shouldn't be here? Are there traits that I'm missing? Does this actually look fun? Feedback would be nice (under the premise that you actually find this interesting enough to discuss).

v2:

2: Cellar, Hamlet (2)

3: Watchtower, Oasis, Swindler, Scheme, Forager, Doctor (6)

4: Militia, Gardens, Bridge, Conspirator, Caravan, Bishop, Talisman, Farming Village, Armoury (9)

5: Tactician, Bazaar, Apprentice, Haggler, Embassy, Catacombs, Soothsayer, Butcher (

[HiveMindEmulator]

This is a fun project. I tried this when there were only like 4 sets out and couldn't make a satisfactory set. There are too many cards I felt like I had to have, so I know it's not easy. I kind of like the choice of Soothsayer as the curser, since it's not as amazingly powerful as the other ones, but the problem is you lack any really strong attacks besides Militia. You also probably want a cheaper village in there instead of 3 costing $4+. You also have a lot of gainers, but only 2 +buys. Maybe Margrave instead of Catacombs would be nice, or maybe instead of something else. You only have one big draw card (Embassy isn't really a big hand-size increaser). I think Doctor is not super interesting and would probably rather have a better strong trasher like Chapel. Ironworks is probably a more interesting $4 gainer than Armory.

[Aidan Millow]

Yay, I'm not the only one with interest.
You're right about the lack of a cheap village, overabundance of gainers (and I could've sworn there was a third +buy in there (oh, right, tactician)) and relatively weak attacks. I might swap jester and mining village for swindler and hamlet. I disagree on the rest, Tactician and apprentice help with drawing. I feel the reverse about both chapel/doctor and ironworks/armoury.

[shark_bait]

My suggestion is remove Gardens and add Fairgrounds as you alt-VP card.  I think you'd allow for a lot of cool strategies to shine with Fairgrounds as they give the potential for another Province pile with 15 unique cards.  Also I think this is just a more exciting and skill based card than Gardens.  That's just my two cents, take it or leave it.

[silverspawn]

My suggestion is remove Gardens and add Fairgrounds as you alt-VP card.  I think you'd allow for a lot of cool strategies to shine with Fairgrounds as they give the potential for another Province pile with 15 unique cards.  Also I think this is just a more exciting and skill based card than Gardens.  That's just my two cents, take it or leave it.

yea, also gardens isn't really a thing in v1 (or v2), you don't have any real enablers for it. it would just be ignored almost every game.

aside from that, I'd put menagerie in almost any set that's supposed to be fun, it's just such an amazing card

[Polk5440]

Related: Sets of 25.

Also, for a while, this was my preferred "introduction to Dominion" set. 

Regarding your version 2, what about Ironmonger instead of Caravan? Caravan is a nice solid card, but a little boring. Tactician is a duration, so you're not losing much there.

I don't know if both Catacombs and Embassy are needed. If you want big moneyish stuff, how about Hoard instead of Catacombs?

I also prefer Fairgrounds to Gardens, but that is personal preference. Not sure if that would actually contribute to better games in your set or not. I do kind of like Gardens for the set you have going here.

[theblankman]

I might consider having one or two potion-cost cards, as a nod to Potion's existence... you have some +buy, several gainers and a number of good, cheap actions, so maybe Vineyard instead of Gardens?  I'd also be fine with Fairgrounds instead of Gardens, I agree with silverspawn that Gardens lacks enablers in this set so it's a bit lackluster. 

If you do introduce Potion, I don't think it could be for just one card, but another thing I see sort of lacking is non-terminal draw.  Caravan increases hand size in a non-terminal way, but it's not immediate so I guess it doesn't "feel like a Lab?"  Apprentice is closer but still has more of a TfB feel, to me anyway.  So that brings us to Alchemist, which could replace Embassy or Catacombs, as I agree with Polk that you don't really need both.  That's what I'd do if you want to add a couple Potion cards, especially if you decide to swap Caravan for Ironmonger (I don't have a strong opinion there, both cards are fun). 

If you don't do Potion cards, but do swap Caravan for Ironmonger, then I'd consider swapping out Embassy or Catacombs, and replacing with Laboratory, Hunting Party or Menagerie.  For alt-VP cards, I think Fairgrounds would be my top choice, but Island or Harem wouldn't be a bad call either, multi-typed alt-VP can make things interesting. 

Edit: I'd also think about a "choices" card like Pawn or Steward, but I'm not sure what to swap out for either of those. 

[Aidan Millow]

Here's the awkward part where I'm happy to have discussion but disagree with virtually everything that's been said.

On potions cost cards: I really didn't want to have just one or two potion cost cards floating around.

On alt vp: I agree that gardens is a bit awkward but I felt like it was the best option available. I wanted an alt-vp that actually changed the way you built your deck (as opposed to fairgrounds which I feel takes little effort to be a six cost province), I've never found duke interesting, I'm pretty sure feodum is terrible much too often and to be honest I don't really get silk road (shameful admission). That leaves gardens. I tried to fit in as many tier 2 enablers as I could reasonably manage (because most of the best gardens enablers aren't good for much other than enabling gardens).

Having a better non-terminal handsize increaser might be worthwhile though...

[Polk5440]

Here's the awkward part where I'm happy to have discussion but disagree with virtually everything that's been said.

On potions cost cards: I really didn't want to have just one or two potion cost cards floating around.

On alt vp: I agree that gardens is a bit awkward but I felt like it was the best option available. I wanted an alt-vp that actually changed the way you built your deck (as opposed to fairgrounds which I feel takes little effort to be a six cost province), I've never found duke interesting, I'm pretty sure feodum is terrible much too often and to be honest I don't really get silk road (shameful admission). That leaves gardens. I tried to fit in as many tier 2 enablers as I could reasonably manage (because most of the best gardens enablers aren't good for much other than enabling gardens).

Having a better non-terminal handsize increaser might be worthwhile though...

That's perfectly reasonable. I think the tier two gardens enablers are fine. This set will generate interesting gardens games; especially in multiplayer.

I agree with you on potion cost cards.

[eHalcyon]

Here's the awkward part where I'm happy to have discussion but disagree with virtually everything that's been said.

On potions cost cards: I really didn't want to have just one or two potion cost cards floating around.

On alt vp: I agree that gardens is a bit awkward but I felt like it was the best option available. I wanted an alt-vp that actually changed the way you built your deck (as opposed to fairgrounds which I feel takes little effort to be a six cost province), I've never found duke interesting, I'm pretty sure feodum is terrible much too often and to be honest I don't really get silk road (shameful admission). That leaves gardens. I tried to fit in as many tier 2 enablers as I could reasonably manage (because most of the best gardens enablers aren't good for much other than enabling gardens).

Having a better non-terminal handsize increaser might be worthwhile though...

I find it pretty rare to get to Province level with Fairgrounds unless I'm actually aiming for it.  Without help, it's usually just 4VP.  You need 15 different cards to get to Province level, which is actually quite a lot. 

[markusin]

Overall, I really like both versions. Maybe you can swap Farming Village for another village, or even a pseudo village like Throne Room. I don't really see any notable interactions with Farming Village here.

[Aidan Millow]

Here's the awkward part where I'm happy to have discussion but disagree with virtually everything that's been said.

On potions cost cards: I really didn't want to have just one or two potion cost cards floating around.

On alt vp: I agree that gardens is a bit awkward but I felt like it was the best option available. I wanted an alt-vp that actually changed the way you built your deck (as opposed to fairgrounds which I feel takes little effort to be a six cost province), I've never found duke interesting, I'm pretty sure feodum is terrible much too often and to be honest I don't really get silk road (shameful admission). That leaves gardens. I tried to fit in as many tier 2 enablers as I could reasonably manage (because most of the best gardens enablers aren't good for much other than enabling gardens).

Having a better non-terminal handsize increaser might be worthwhile though...

I find it pretty rare to get to Province level with Fairgrounds unless I'm actually aiming for it.  Without help, it's usually just 4VP.  You need 15 different cards to get to Province level, which is actually quite a lot.

That's true, I suppose that what I meant was that fairgrounds doesn't make a deck fundamentally different to a province deck while Gardens does.

[theblankman]

Here's the awkward part where I'm happy to have discussion but disagree with virtually everything that's been said.

On potions cost cards: I really didn't want to have just one or two potion cost cards floating around.

On alt vp: I agree that gardens is a bit awkward but I felt like it was the best option available. I wanted an alt-vp that actually changed the way you built your deck (as opposed to fairgrounds which I feel takes little effort to be a six cost province), I've never found duke interesting, I'm pretty sure feodum is terrible much too often and to be honest I don't really get silk road (shameful admission). That leaves gardens. I tried to fit in as many tier 2 enablers as I could reasonably manage (because most of the best gardens enablers aren't good for much other than enabling gardens).

Having a better non-terminal handsize increaser might be worthwhile though...

I think Fairgrounds can fundamentally change your deck construction in that your goal can be to hit $6 instead of $8, that's a significant difference.  Other than that I think everything you say is reasonable.

If you want to make Gardens more enticing, maybe go ahead and put in Workshop or even Ironworks instead of Armory.  You've got enough good, low-cost cards running around that Workshop will be at least okay on some non-Garden boards, and enough strong cards in general that you might still make kingdoms where Garden/Workshop exists but doesn't clearly dominate. 

[Witherweaver]

I think this should be made with the bottom <some number> ranked cards at each price point on our cards list.  I wonder if people would get different impressions of those cards if they only played from that selection.

[Jimmmmm]

I think this should be made with the bottom <some number> ranked cards at each price point on our cards list.  I wonder if people would get different impressions of those cards if they only played from that selection.

They would mostly be terminals right? Big Money would be pretty dominant.

[Witherweaver]

I think this should be made with the bottom <some number> ranked cards at each price point on our cards list.  I wonder if people would get different impressions of those cards if they only played from that selection.

They would mostly be terminals right? Big Money would be pretty dominant.

Well that's probably true, good point.

[Witherweaver]

I think this should be made with the bottom <some number> ranked cards at each price point on our cards list.  I wonder if people would get different impressions of those cards if they only played from that selection.

They would mostly be terminals right? Big Money would be pretty dominant.

Well that's probably true, good point.

But you'd have Scout and Great Hall!  Synnergy!

Well if you take a fixed number of bottom cards instead of a proportional number, you might end up with King's Court.  But that's kind of cheating.

[qmech]

Dominion: "timchen" edition

Pearl Diver
Duchess
Secret Chamber

Develop
Great Hall
Woodcutter
Chancellor

Bureaucrat
Spy
Navigator
Treasure Map
Coppersmith
Feast
Thief
Scout

Outpost
Mine
Cache
Harvest
Contraband
Stash
Saboteur
Counting House

Farmland
Adventurer

And five random Kingdoms:

• Cache, Adventurer, Bureaucrat, Feast, Farmland, Mine, Spy, Secret Chamber, Navigator, Duchess
• Coppersmith, Woodcutter, Counting House, Cache, Bureaucrat, Develop, Saboteur, Navigator, Thief, Great Hall
• Treasure Map, Saboteur, Stash, Duchess, Contraband, Pearl Diver, Feast, Develop, Great Hall, Secret Chamber
• Chancellor, Duchess, Mine, Feast, Outpost, Treasure Map, Navigator, Pearl Diver, Cache, Farmland
• Farmland, Pearl Diver, Cache, Counting House, Contraband, Mine, Navigator, Great Hall, Chancellor, Stash

[Jimmmmm]

How horrible... Big Money/Navigator seems dominant.

Power combos: Chancellor/Stash... Spy/Treasure Map??

[timchen]

Dominion: timchen edition

Is it just me seeing my name there?

[Awaclus]

Dominion: Ozle edition

Is it just me seeing my name there?

Yes, it's just you.

[qmech]

Dominion: timchen edition

Is it just me seeing my name there?

I was wondering when you'd show up.

After posting I wished I'd quoted it to match the thread title, but there you go.  Perhaps I'll do it now.