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[Eevee]

wagons on scum are quick and easy and not the other way around.

wait I didn't think that through, a wagon on scum is more likely(in my opinion) to have people argue against it and be hard to push through. Though it is also more likely to stagnate as this one has

I am thoroughly confused by this.  wagons on scum are more likely to be pushed hard for, pushed hard against, and stagnate?

I am saying I think wagons on scum build easily and quickly but then stagnate and are hard to push through to actual lynch. So the quick chairs wagon that then stagnated makes me think he is scum, got caught, and then his partners have helped move the conversation elsewhere and stagnated it.

Who do you think did that?

[Robz888]

On the other hand, absolutely the thing scum want most is for people to vote for them at the beginning of the day, especially on early days. Early wagons die throughout the day, and people who suffer wagons on early days are not revisited. This has been observed over and over again.

[ashersky]

vote: axxle

On the other hand, absolutely the thing scum want most is for people to vote for them at the beginning of the day, especially on early days. Early wagons die throughout the day, and people who suffer wagons on early days are not revisited. This has been observed over and over again.

This is definitely true.  I've seen it as a mod and as a player.

[ashersky]

Where are we on the possible claiming plan from Faust?  Discussion just sort of died on it.

[ashersky]

wagons on scum are quick and easy and not the other way around.

wait I didn't think that through, a wagon on scum is more likely(in my opinion) to have people argue against it and be hard to push through. Though it is also more likely to stagnate as this one has

I am thoroughly confused by this.  wagons on scum are more likely to be pushed hard for, pushed hard against, and stagnate?

I am saying I think wagons on scum build easily and quickly but then stagnate and are hard to push through to actual lynch. So the quick chairs wagon that then stagnated makes me think he is scum, got caught, and then his partners have helped move the conversation elsewhere and stagnated it.

Who do you think did that?

It's pretty clear this is a true thought.  We've seen wagons on scum stall in many games, whereas town wagons can grow incredibly quickly to L-1 and beyond.

Scum have a voting bloc, and they can use it to great effect.

[A Drowned Kernel]

I think most people agreed that the claiming plan was a really bad idea for town, given the setup.

I also agree that a wagon stalling seems like a good indication that it's on scum, and chairs hasn't really given much of a response, so I suppose it's time I stopped waffling. Vote: chairs

[Teproc]

I think this is L-1, so no one do anything stupid please.

[chairs]

I think most people agreed that the claiming plan was a really bad idea for town, given the setup.

I also agree that a wagon stalling seems like a good indication that it's on scum, and chairs hasn't really given much of a response, so I suppose it's time I stopped waffling. Vote: chairs

My response is that we're unlikely to hit scum on D1, and at least this wagon has good interaction data, so I'd rather lynch Bowser's gang but if we must lynch Town at least we're getting more than naught out of it.

FWIW axxle/robz/eevee scumteam.

[Teproc]

I'm not really opposed to a chairs lynch, but it's definitely too early, and the case on him isn't incredible. As I understand it, here are the arguments :
1) He was too nervous about the Axxle scumteam joke
2) He didn't really react to his wagon
3) His wagon stalled, which is a characteristic of scum wagons

While I agree with 1) and, to a lesser extent, 2), I don't know if 3) is all that true. Not that bad for day 1 actually.

Regardless, chairs, you need to step up and defend yourself. If you're town, you're just lurking your way into ending up as a default lynch, and that's no good.

PPE : He's here ! And... his defense is that he's not the worst mislynch ? Ugh.

[Teproc]

I think most people agreed that the claiming plan was a really bad idea for town, given the setup.

I also agree that a wagon stalling seems like a good indication that it's on scum, and chairs hasn't really given much of a response, so I suppose it's time I stopped waffling. Vote: chairs

Did you realise this was putting chairs at L-1 by the way ? Because you usually announce that, to make sure no one derphammers.

Not sure what to do here. chairs, why Axxle/Robz/Eevee ? I think Axxle is town and I don't have much of a read on either Robz or Eevee.

[ashersky]

I'm not really opposed to a chairs lynch, but it's definitely too early, and the case on him isn't incredible. As I understand it, here are the arguments :
1) He was too nervous about the Axxle scumteam joke
2) He didn't really react to his wagon
3) His wagon stalled, which is a characteristic of scum wagons

While I agree with 1) and, to a lesser extent, 2), I don't know if 3) is all that true. Not that bad for day 1 actually.

Regardless, chairs, you need to step up and defend yourself. If you're town, you're just lurking your way into ending up as a default lynch, and that's no good.

PPE : He's here ! And... his defense is that he's not the worst mislynch ? Ugh.

#3 is true.  You can find hundreds of examples.  Clearly doesn't mean chairs is scum, given the low participation so far in this game.

If chairs is scum, one of the three in the team he called is probably also scum.

[Robz888]

Unvote

[ashersky]

Unvote

I get it, towncred and all that, but I've recently really started to believe that the "fear" we have of the scum quickhammer is overblown.  It'd be crazy to pull something like that.

[Robz888]

Unvote

I get it, towncred and all that, but I've recently really started to believe that the "fear" we have of the scum quickhammer is overblown.  It'd be crazy to pull something like that.

I'm not fearing the scum quickhammer, I'm fearing the town accidental hammer. A legitimate fear.

[Robz888]

I'm really mystified by chairs's refusal to like saying anything actually useful. I think he thinks the wagon will just die off of its own accord. This is something I always count on as scum. When I'm town I get an incredulous and actually fight it.

So still chairs is reading scum to me.

[Teproc]

I'm really mystified by chairs's refusal to like saying anything actually useful. I think he thinks the wagon will just die off of its own accord. This is something I always count on as scum. When I'm town I get an incredulous and actually fight it.

So still chairs is reading scum to me.

Well, chairs is not you. Has he been lynched as scum before ?

Edit : Harry Potter Mafia apparently. I'll take a look at his last few posts there.

[Teproc]

Hmm, his last post in that game was made when he only had 2 votes on him, so no good precedent there.

I'm afraid I don't have much of a defense here other than that yes, I'm town, and I'm sorry that I misread the situation as lio vs volt.  Clearly I was reading into the words of others something that wasn't there, and I worried we'd lynch one of my town reads.

And Volt, sorry if I feel sheepy to you - I'm still trying to find that balance between "I am 100% certain X is scum" and "I have no idea who is scum so I am not posting at all".

Snow: It was less than 24 hours to deadline, most people had been discussing liopoil as possible scum at that time (or at least that's how I felt, I'll admit to being pretty tired at the time of posting), and somebody else suggested voltaire as a possibility.

This is one of his last few posts, in which he's very apologetic. I guess the next step is to look at a game where town!chairs was lynched. He wasn't lynched in GoT, but he was definitely very frustrated there since it led him (along with bad internet access) to /out when a wagon got to L-1 on him. I'll try to find another town!chairs lynch, but it looks like Robz might be right.

[chairs]

Hmm, his last post in that game was made when he only had 2 votes on him, so no good precedent there.

I'm afraid I don't have much of a defense here other than that yes, I'm town, and I'm sorry that I misread the situation as lio vs volt.  Clearly I was reading into the words of others something that wasn't there, and I worried we'd lynch one of my town reads.

And Volt, sorry if I feel sheepy to you - I'm still trying to find that balance between "I am 100% certain X is scum" and "I have no idea who is scum so I am not posting at all".

Snow: It was less than 24 hours to deadline, most people had been discussing liopoil as possible scum at that time (or at least that's how I felt, I'll admit to being pretty tired at the time of posting), and somebody else suggested voltaire as a possibility.

This is one of his last few posts, in which he's very apologetic. I guess the next step is to look at a game where town!chairs was lynched. He wasn't lynched in GoT, but he was definitely very frustrated there since it led him (along with bad internet access) to /out when a wagon got to L-1 on him. I'll try to find another town!chairs lynch, but it looks like Robz might be right.

Townread on Teproc, since he's trying to put forth investigative effort (something I expect Town to do on a wagon prior to a hammer).

I don't feel like I'm apologetic here, so much as apathetic.  Do I want to lynch Mafia? Yes.  Do I think I've at least got one of the scum right on my scumteam call? Absolutely.  If I had to rate it, I'd say I feel like Axxle's jokey manner with calling himself scum feels like an ashersky play, but not coming from ashersky it really -really- irks me in a way that makes me want to lynch him.  Robz always feels scummy to me, and I feel like he's too "here" for D1 to be town!robz.  Eevee's the trickiest of the 3, but I do think I"m getting a feel for scum!eevee even if I can't quite nail down why I think he's scummy.  Would I put any of those at "100% scum?" of course not, it's D1 and nobody's triggered the "I AM VOTING YOU AND ALL MY POSTS WILL BE TUNNELING YOU" instinct I had in my first game here (which, by the way, I believe I was right on the money with that instinct).  Do I still feel pretty good about lynching any of those 3? Definitely.

That said, do I have a good defense regarding my wagon? Not unless you acknowledge that when I'm at work I'm more likely to do short, rapid-fire posts (this one is also at work, but I'm annoyed enough at this "Oh, he's not trying enough" bullshit to risk getting yelled at by my boss to do more than catch up).  I'm on a mandatory OT week and have a lot on my mind, so if I seem a bit passive-aggressive then all I have to say is

Shit or get off the pot - lynch me and use the interactions we've built up, or vote: axxle and see if that tremor in my hindbrain is any good at this.

[WalrusMcFishSr]

I did a 2 min reread, but I'm still not seeing a vote I like better than chairs. I would vote for Teproc too. I think the 'stalled wagon' argument is fairly compelling...it certainly does feel like the wagon built up pretty quick, then has stagnated. It has been my experience that scum likes to have a wagon on them early but then would be of course hesitant to follow through.

So maybe we just got lucky and hit scum early. It reminds me a little bit of Dynasty Warriors I, even though I wasn't in it...wasn't there an early wagon on sudgy which was basically the only wagon that day, and it ended up hitting scum? The fact that he's not making much of an effort to defend himself strikes me as scummy as well.

From where I stand ash is seeming townier than Axxle in their little spat, although I don't know Axxle at all and it might just be town vs. town. Maybe I'm misinterpreting this, but I think ash's initial barrage of posts sort of had a joke-y feel to it--look at why everyone in the game is scummy! Of course there's kernels of truth in there, so it's not entirely facetious, and that's a good thing. But I feel like some people are taking him too seriously right now, and his jocularity reads townier to me.

It's hard for me to tell what Axxle's deal is...he seems to be very interested in pinning scum, even to the point of overzealousness. He's moved his vote around and states his reads confidently. I'm not sure if that's town who's excited to be playing again and really trying to nail people on semi-solid cases, or scum who knows everyone's alignments (even to the point of joking about it) and who's trying to sow suspicion.

PPE: Ok there's a little fire from chairs...interesting.

[Teproc]

Good. Interesting that chairs is voting for Axxle, someone who is not currently on his wagon. I guess scum!chairs could be confident that the wagon on him will dissipate like Robz said, but it's not the safest choice, for sure. If he wanted to stick to the three he mentioned above, that would be Eevee.

That being said, Axxle is, like, my second strongest town read this game so I'm not super interested in that particular wagon. Walrus, what you describe is active town helping to get an informative day 1 by creating interactions. I don't see what's scummy about that. I wouldn't read too much into the initial joke, Axxle tends to have a light-hearted approach to mafia IIRC.

[ashersky]

Chairs, are you going to claim if it looks like you are the lynch for the day?

(I ask, because if you are, and you think it'll keep you from being lynched, I'd do it earlier rather than later so we have more time to focus elsewhere.)

[chairs]

Chairs, are you going to claim if it looks like you are the lynch for the day?

(I ask, because if you are, and you think it'll keep you from being lynched, I'd do it earlier rather than later so we have more time to focus elsewhere.)

I have no intention of claiming.

[ashersky]

Chairs, are you going to claim if it looks like you are the lynch for the day?

(I ask, because if you are, and you think it'll keep you from being lynched, I'd do it earlier rather than later so we have more time to focus elsewhere.)

I have no intention of claiming.

Good to know, and good on you for not claiming under pressure.

I mean, it probably means you are more likely to be lynched, but still.

[chairs]

Good. Interesting that chairs is voting for Axxle, someone who is not currently on his wagon. I guess scum!chairs could be confident that the wagon on him will dissipate like Robz said, but it's not the safest choice, for sure. If he wanted to stick to the three he mentioned above, that would be Eevee.

That being said, Axxle is, like, my second strongest town read this game so I'm not super interested in that particular wagon. Walrus, what you describe is active town helping to get an informative day 1 by creating interactions. I don't see what's scummy about that. I wouldn't read too much into the initial joke, Axxle tends to have a light-hearted approach to mafia IIRC.

Of my 3, I'm least confident in my eevee read.  I feel like Axxle's confidence is exactly how I'd want to fire out of the gate as someone who's been a prior Mafia player here, but hasn't really been active very much recently - "Oh hey, he read up on people and is bringing a new approach that he thinks will catch them".  Also, I think if I made a joke about being Mafia like he did, and I really was Mafia, I'd very much want to make sure I look cocksure the whole time.

[Eevee]

I think chairs's points about Axxle make sense, that's definitely a valuable contribution.