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[werothegreat]

So I noticed that AJD has been working on an Outtakes page, and it made me think about Archivist.  Now that Dominion is supposed to be over, would there be a place for adding fan-made cards to the wiki?  Not just any card, naturally - there would have to be a notability criterion - winning a contest or being talked about a lot.  I'd like to know what the community thinks of this before proceeding.

My thought: the bottom of the Cards Navbox would have a "See also:" category, that simply has links to "Outtakes" and "Fan-made cards".  Once you've clicked on the fan-made cards article, there would be a list and a separate Navbox, so that players uninterested in Fan-made cards would not have to have their sanctioned Dominion defiled.  Maybe on that first page a discussion of what makes a good fan-made card - putting up the stickied tips article in that subforum?

[LastFootnote]

I voted "no". Mostly because fan cards are more or less in flux. They're not published, so there's nothing stopping the authors from improving them. Wikis are changeable, of course, but a major change could invalidate existing analysis on the page.

Also, name conflicts. Nothing stops two unpublished cards from sharing a name.

[AdamH]

I voted yes because I wasn't aware of any of the logistical problems that might come up, and I'm generally in favor of the idea of having some place where we can go to find fan cards that are:

popular (considered interesting by people who know what they're talking about), and play-tested/balanced

Perhaps we should have a High Council Of People Who Decide Which Fan Cards Are Good (HCOPWDWFCAG) who can compile a list of Approved Cards™ for us to play with?

[Awaclus]

I'm not going to vote, but I think that if a fan card becomes so relevant that people start talking about it outside the fan card forum, it could be added, so that people who haven't been following the fan card forum could look it up on the wiki if they don't know what is going on. Currently, I'm not sure if Archivist is relevant enough or not, and I doubt that any other card will be relevant enough very soon.

EDIT: @AdamH: Does the council really need to be high? I think they could be able to make better decisions if they weren't... 

[soulnet]

I voted no because I foresee discussions as to which cards are "relevant enough", and I do not see a big advantage on having them there to counteract that.

EDIT: That being said, I guess having fan card contest have their wiki page would be totally ok, and the winners and maybe runner ups can be put there. There are few enough of those contests that it won't be a problem. Fan cards, on the other hand, are too many to put them all.

[SCSN]

I voted no because I don't see any upside and think it will only confuse new players.

[KingZog3]

Maybe not for all fan cards, but there could be a page on the contests and the winners. That way everyone knows it's a contest, it's not confusing for new players and we get to have a nice page we can all admire with the winning cards.

[AdamH]

EDIT: @AdamH: Does the council really need to be high? I think they could be able to make better decisions if they weren't... 

I only put that in there because it made the acronym flow better. COPWDWFCAG just doesn't flow off the tongue like HCOPWDWFCAG does, you know?

[KingZog3]

EDIT: @AdamH: Does the council really need to be high? I think they could be able to make better decisions if they weren't... 

I only put that in there because it made the acronym flow better. COPWDWFCAG just doesn't flow off the tongue like HCOPWDWFCAG does, you know?

Strangely enough, that's kind of true. The H does help.

[AdamH]

EDIT: @AdamH: Does the council really need to be high? I think they could be able to make better decisions if they weren't... 

I only put that in there because it made the acronym flow better. COPWDWFCAG just doesn't flow off the tongue like HCOPWDWFCAG does, you know?

Strangely enough, that's kind of true. The H does help.

Adding an H to things is pretty much always good 

[werothegreat]

EDIT: @AdamH: Does the council really need to be high? I think they could be able to make better decisions if they weren't... 

I only put that in there because it made the acronym flow better. COPWDWFCAG just doesn't flow off the tongue like HCOPWDWFCAG does, you know?

Strangely enough, that's kind of true. The H does help.

Hadding han hH hto hthings his hpretty hmuch halways hgood 

HFTFY

[KingZog3]

EDIT: @AdamH: Does the council really need to be high? I think they could be able to make better decisions if they weren't... 

I only put that in there because it made the acronym flow better. COPWDWFCAG just doesn't flow off the tongue like HCOPWDWFCAG does, you know?

Strangely enough, that's kind of true. The H does help.

Hadding han hH hto hthings his hpretty hmuch halways hgood 

HFTFY

If you're french those h's are all silent.

[AJD]

I think it'd be a good idea to have one page on fan cards, but not separate wiki articles for individual fan cards, just like there's one page on Outtakes. It could have a list of relatively well-known, frequently-discussed, and influential fan cards and expansions (like the Outtakes page has), as well as advice on how to design and playtest a fan card (cf. Rinkworks's lengthy essay), the results of major fan-card design contests, and trivia (e.g., Courtyard is the only fan-designed card that ever made it into official Dominion). Maybe Archivist could get its own page, as the most successful individual fan card, just as Confusion has its own page, as the most frequently discussed outtake.

[Ozle]

I voted No because I don't see the point.

But then I have been to my Nihilism class today...or i would have done had there been one...

[Awaclus]

EDIT: @AdamH: Does the council really need to be high? I think they could be able to make better decisions if they weren't... 

I only put that in there because it made the acronym flow better. COPWDWFCAG just doesn't flow off the tongue like HCOPWDWFCAG does, you know?

Strangely enough, that's kind of true. The H does help.

Adding an H to things is pretty much always good 

I agree!

[Watno]

I don't see a reason to disallow irrelevant pages on a wiki. So I think people should be able to add any fan cards they want. I wouldn't be interested in those pages, but I don't see why it should bother me taht they are there.

[2.71828.....]

I don't see a reason to disallow irrelevant pages on a wiki. So I think people should be able to add any fan cards they want. I wouldn't be interested in those pages, but I don't see why it should bother me taht they are there.

I agree.  I don't spend my time looking at the "Variants and Fan Cards" section of this forum because that is not interesting to me.  There are other people who probably spend most of their time in that section.  The point is that we have it.  I do not see a problem with putting fan cards on the wiki, because I trust that they will be clearly labelled as such, and so people who may want to look through fan cards can do so, at no cost to people such as myself who will just ignore the section.

[werothegreat]

I guess my main reason for this (and why I keep posting things about the wiki on here) is that I want it to be as comprehensive as possible.  I don't just want a page for each card and expansion.  I want to detail all the intricacies of this game.

[AJD]

I don't see a reason to disallow irrelevant pages on a wiki. So I think people should be able to add any fan cards they want. I wouldn't be interested in those pages, but I don't see why it should bother me taht they are there.

So, apart from the possibility of cluttering up search results with undesired pages, there's a general feeling, I think, for a reference source that the amount of information available on a given topic ought, in principle, to be roughly proportional to its importance. Having pages and pages on obscure fan cards would seem to indicate that the wiki is losing focus on its core topic—the same reason I didn't start a new page for each outtake card.

[LastFootnote]

I suppose as a compromise, each fan set or—better yet—each author could have his own page of fan cards. That would cut down on the sheer number of new pages, but would be much more navigable than one huge page.

I'm still fine with not having fan cards in the wiki at all, but if we go for it, I think this might be the best avenue.

[eHalcyon]

I voted no.  But I can see exceptions being made for notable fan cards.  The only ones I can think of off the top of my head are Archivist (since it was even available on isotropic for a while) and maybe two pages for the contest that rinkworks ran and the one that is on-going. 

Not sure about even those though, since playtesting for the first contest has been minimal anyway and there isn't even card art for everything there.  Moreover, I wouldn't really want to see pages for fan expansions on BGG or most of the regular stuff seen in the Variants and Fan Cards sub-forum here.  I think the contest winners are a step above those in general, but not by very much at all.  It would be better to just leave them out completely.

[AJD]

I suppose as a compromise, each fan set or—better yet—each author could have his own page of fan cards. That would cut down on the sheer number of new pages, but would be much more navigable than one huge page.

Well, if there was one huge page I think it should be restricted to listing the most well-known and influential fan cards—the Outtakes page doesn't try to list all the outtakes (though it does have a link to where all of them can be found).

I think the User: namespace might be a good place to put a by-author listing of fan cards—each person could post their own cards in a subpage of their User page, and then they could all be linked to from a central index.

[AJD]

Moreover, I wouldn't really want to see pages for fan expansions on BGG or most of the regular stuff seen in the Variants and Fan Cards sub-forum here.

It's the Dominion Strategy wiki, and so I think it is justifiable for it to be somewhat biased toward the people and strategic discussion associated with this community; but I think it's worth noting that on the abstract/objective level some of the BGG fan expansions are probably the most "well known and influential" Dominion fan cards out there (with the exception of Archivist).

[LastFootnote]

Well, if there was one huge page I think it should be restricted to listing the most well-known and influential fan cards—the Outtakes page doesn't try to list all the outtakes (though it does have a link to where all of them can be found).

This brings up the question of which cards make the cut, which is a conversation I'm not looking forward to.

I think the User: namespace might be a good place to put a by-author listing of fan cards—each person could post their own cards in a subpage of their User page, and then they could all be linked to from a central index.

This I like.

Moreover, I wouldn't really want to see pages for fan expansions on BGG or most of the regular stuff seen in the Variants and Fan Cards sub-forum here.

It's the Dominion Strategy wiki, and so I think it is justifiable for it to be somewhat biased toward the people and strategic discussion associated with this community; but I think it's worth noting that on the abstract/objective level some of the BGG fan expansions are probably the most "well known and influential" Dominion fan cards out there (with the exception of Archivist).

Ugh. Sad but true. Most—no, ALL—of the submitted fan expansions at BGG are awful.

[eHalcyon]

Moreover, I wouldn't really want to see pages for fan expansions on BGG or most of the regular stuff seen in the Variants and Fan Cards sub-forum here.

It's the Dominion Strategy wiki, and so I think it is justifiable for it to be somewhat biased toward the people and strategic discussion associated with this community; but I think it's worth noting that on the abstract/objective level some of the BGG fan expansions are probably the most "well known and influential" Dominion fan cards out there (with the exception of Archivist).

Yeah, that's all true.

If we put BGG fan expansions on the wiki, I bet not all of us could resist adding shredding commentary about why they're (mostly) bad fan cards.

[LastFootnote]

Moreover, I wouldn't really want to see pages for fan expansions on BGG or most of the regular stuff seen in the Variants and Fan Cards sub-forum here.

It's the Dominion Strategy wiki, and so I think it is justifiable for it to be somewhat biased toward the people and strategic discussion associated with this community; but I think it's worth noting that on the abstract/objective level some of the BGG fan expansions are probably the most "well known and influential" Dominion fan cards out there (with the exception of Archivist).

Yeah, that's all true.

If we put BGG fan expansions on the wiki, I bet not all of us could resist adding shredding commentary about why they're (mostly) bad fan cards.

AAARGLESNARGLEAAAAARGH!!! LEARN 2 MAKE FAN CARDS NOOB!!! *Foams at mouth*

…is what I'd have to try really hard not to say about the BGG fan expansions.

EDIT: To explain, the reason this makes me so angry is that I find it utterly incomprehensible that any old set of unplaytested fan cards can get an official BGG entry. Does that seem bizarre to anybody else?

[blueblimp]

Archivist at least deserves a page because it's not only a good fan card, but has some interesting history around it (namely that it was available for play on isotropic for a short time).

[SCSN]

I have never heard of Archivist, someone link me to some information about it, like, a wiki page or something?

[eHalcyon]

I have never heard of Archivist, someone link me to some information about it, like, a wiki page or something?

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=728.0

[Count Grishnakh]

Perhaps we should have a High Council Of People Who Decide Which Fan Cards Are Good (HCOPWDWFCAG) who can compile a list of Approved Cards™ for us to play with?

Yes! I would be in favor of featuring fan-made cards on the wiki but this suggestion is a good one. It shouldn't be easy for a fan-made card to make it on there. We need this council to playtest a card, make changes as needed, and then finally it becomes officially part of a "canon" of cards

I shared my hopes with LastFootNote that such a council should be created and hopefully one day there will be a place to play with these cards online

[Awaclus]

Perhaps we should have a High Council Of People Who Decide Which Fan Cards Are Good (HCOPWDWFCAG) who can compile a list of Approved Cards™ for us to play with?

Yes! I would be in favor of featuring fan-made cards on the wiki but this suggestion is a good one. It shouldn't be easy for a fan-made card to make it on there. We need this council to playtest a card, make changes as needed, and then finally it becomes officially part of a "canon" of cards

I shared my hopes with LastFootNote that such a council should be created and hopefully one day there will be a place to play with these cards online

We're going to need a High Council Of People Who Decide Which Dominion Players Will Become The High Council Of People Who Decide Which Fan Cards Are Good (HCOPWDWDPWBTIHCOPHDWFCAG)!

[soulnet]

We're going to need a High Council Of People Who Decide Which Dominion Players Will Become The High Council Of People Who Decide Which Fan Cards Are Good (HCOPWDWDPWBTIHCOPHDWFCAG)!

I am not sure we need that. How could we decide if we do?

[Davio]

I have never heard of Archivist, someone link me to some information about it, like, a wiki page or something?

It won a contest I had organized way back when and I had a small surprise in store for the winner: The card was actually playable on Isotropic for a good month or so. Good times.

[Grujah]

Separate wiki with (chosen) fan cards would be a better idea?

[Polk5440]

I am against including lists of fan cards on the wiki.

At the most, there should be one wiki page about fan cards in general that says: There are fan cards. Possibly talk about the pitfalls of making fan cards, how to make and play with your own fan cards (and others), and/or include rinkworks' guide to making fan cards.

Then it links to the Variants and Fan Cards here on the forum (and maybe also the stickied threads) but not to BGG at all. But as far as lists of cards themselves on the wiki, I am against. Lists of fan cards and fan expansions here, though, would be a better idea.

Archivist is the only fan card that should have a chance at getting any mention on the wiki because it has the distinction of being played on Iso. I don't even think contest winners should be on a wiki page. Those are good cards, but more about "forum fun-times" than part of Dominion itself.

[Davio]

I think a general article on fan cards would be sufficient, mentioning contest winners.

[shark_bait]

+1 For mentioning Rinkwork's guide.  That is the bible for making custom fan dominion cards.

[Awaclus]

At the most, there should be one wiki page about fan cards in general that says: There are fan cards. Possibly talk about the pitfalls of making fan cards, how to make and play with your own fan cards (and others), and/or include rinkworks' guide to making fan cards.

Then it links to the Variants and Fan Cards here on the forum (and maybe also the stickied threads) but not to BGG at all. But as far as lists of cards themselves on the wiki, I am against. Lists of fan cards and fan expansions here, though, would be a better idea.

Archivist is the only fan card that should have a chance at getting any mention on the wiki because it has the distinction of being played on Iso. I don't even think contest winners should be on a wiki page. Those are good cards, but more about "forum fun-times" than part of Dominion itself.

Not sure if that's the joke, but you know, that exact page already exists.

[Polk5440]

At the most, there should be one wiki page about fan cards in general that says: There are fan cards. Possibly talk about the pitfalls of making fan cards, how to make and play with your own fan cards (and others), and/or include rinkworks' guide to making fan cards.

Then it links to the Variants and Fan Cards here on the forum (and maybe also the stickied threads) but not to BGG at all. But as far as lists of cards themselves on the wiki, I am against. Lists of fan cards and fan expansions here, though, would be a better idea.

Archivist is the only fan card that should have a chance at getting any mention on the wiki because it has the distinction of being played on Iso. I don't even think contest winners should be on a wiki page. Those are good cards, but more about "forum fun-times" than part of Dominion itself.

Not sure if that's the joke, but you know, that exact page already exists.

hehehe. 

Yep, my opinion is that it's good as is.

[AdamH]

Perhaps we should have a High Council Of People Who Decide Which Fan Cards Are Good (HCOPWDWFCAG) who can compile a list of Approved Cards™ for us to play with?

Yes! I would be in favor of featuring fan-made cards on the wiki but this suggestion is a good one. It shouldn't be easy for a fan-made card to make it on there. We need this council to playtest a card, make changes as needed, and then finally it becomes officially part of a "canon" of cards

I shared my hopes with LastFootNote that such a council should be created and hopefully one day there will be a place to play with these cards online

We're going to need a High Council Of People Who Decide Which Dominion Players Will Become The High Council Of People Who Decide Which Fan Cards Are Good (HCOPWDWDPWBTIHCOPHDWFCAG)!

Small change in your acronym, but I really like the way this just flows out of my mouth like warm butter! Well done!

But seriously, whether or not it's on the wiki or just linked to from the wiki, I think some such list would be a good idea to make. Is anyone opposed to that part happening?

I would contribute but I'm just not qualified to do so 

[LastFootnote]

Small change in your acronym, but I really like the way this just flows out of my mouth like warm butter! Well done!

Ew.

[Polk5440]

HCOPWDWDPWBTHCOPHDWFCAG

 = "hiccup wood would pow but hiccup head wolf cage"?

[Awaclus]

Perhaps we should have a High Council Of People Who Decide Which Fan Cards Are Good (HCOPWDWFCAG) who can compile a list of Approved Cards™ for us to play with?

Yes! I would be in favor of featuring fan-made cards on the wiki but this suggestion is a good one. It shouldn't be easy for a fan-made card to make it on there. We need this council to playtest a card, make changes as needed, and then finally it becomes officially part of a "canon" of cards

I shared my hopes with LastFootNote that such a council should be created and hopefully one day there will be a place to play with these cards online

We're going to need a High Council Of People Who Decide Which Dominion Players Will Become The High Council Of People Who Decide Which Fan Cards Are Good (HCOPWDWDPWBTIHCOPHDWFCAG)!

Small change in your acronym, but I really like the way this just flows out of my mouth like warm butter! Well done!

But seriously, whether or not it's on the wiki or just linked to from the wiki, I think some such list would be a good idea to make. Is anyone opposed to that part happening?

I would contribute but I'm just not qualified to do so 

+1 for actually reading the acronym, I couldn't resist the temptation to put an extra letter there just in case someone could be bothered enough.

[ConMan]

HCOPWDWDPWBTHCOPHDWFCAG

 = "hiccup wood would pow but hiccup head wolf cage"?

Why are you quoting that song about the fox?

[manthos88]

How can u be sure that there will be not another expansion released? Donald said that there are good reasons to stop. But he never clearly said that he WILL stop.

Nevertheless, i don't find this idea bad. Let the best fan-made cards be displayed to everyone. Maybe Donald himself can get some ideas from that...

I'm gonna vote yes. Even though i'm not sure if this is the right thing actually...

[SirPeebles]

I don't like the idea of including pages on individual fan cards, even ones which won contests.  However, each contest could have a wiki page, and it would make sense to include the winning fan cards on those pages.  For instance, Archivist could redirect to a page about Davio's contest.

[eHalcyon]

How can u be sure that there will be not another expansion released? Donald said that there are good reasons to stop. But he never clearly said that he WILL stop.

Nevertheless, i don't find this idea bad. Let the best fan-made cards be displayed to everyone. Maybe Donald himself can get some ideas from that...

I'm gonna vote yes. Even though i'm not sure if this is the right thing actually...

I'm too lazy to find a source, but I think Donald did say that.  And I doubt he has much interest in checking out fan cards (vaguely recall him talking about that before as well). 

[werothegreat]

How can u be sure that there will be not another expansion released? Donald said that there are good reasons to stop. But he never clearly said that he WILL stop.

Nevertheless, i don't find this idea bad. Let the best fan-made cards be displayed to everyone. Maybe Donald himself can get some ideas from that...

I'm gonna vote yes. Even though i'm not sure if this is the right thing actually...

I'm too lazy to find a source, but I think Donald did say that.  And I doubt he has much interest in checking out fan cards (vaguely recall him talking about that before as well).

He doesn't look at fan cards as a rule - too easy for some happy fan to call plagiarism when a card eerily similar to their own ends up in an official expansion.  Same reason why authors don't read their own fan fiction.

[KingZog3]

How can u be sure that there will be not another expansion released? Donald said that there are good reasons to stop. But he never clearly said that he WILL stop.

Nevertheless, i don't find this idea bad. Let the best fan-made cards be displayed to everyone. Maybe Donald himself can get some ideas from that...

I'm gonna vote yes. Even though i'm not sure if this is the right thing actually...

I'm too lazy to find a source, but I think Donald did say that.  And I doubt he has much interest in checking out fan cards (vaguely recall him talking about that before as well).

He doesn't look at fan cards as a rule - too easy for some happy fan to call plagiarism when a card eerily similar to their own ends up in an official expansion.  Same reason why authors don't read their own fan fiction.

Journeyman is crazy close to a fan card that was on here somewhere.

[Kirian]

How can u be sure that there will be not another expansion released? Donald said that there are good reasons to stop. But he never clearly said that he WILL stop.

Nevertheless, i don't find this idea bad. Let the best fan-made cards be displayed to everyone. Maybe Donald himself can get some ideas from that...

I'm gonna vote yes. Even though i'm not sure if this is the right thing actually...

I'm too lazy to find a source, but I think Donald did say that.  And I doubt he has much interest in checking out fan cards (vaguely recall him talking about that before as well).

He doesn't look at fan cards as a rule - too easy for some happy fan to call plagiarism when a card eerily similar to their own ends up in an official expansion.  Same reason why authors don't read their own fan fiction.

Journeyman is crazy close to a fan card that was on here somewhere.

As is Advisor.  In both cases, I think the printed cards are better.

[michaeljb]

I'm pretty sure Buggy over at BGG had a card with the exact effect of Fairgrounds, but it cost something like $3P.