Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[AndrewisFTTW]

Everything you've said is either blatantly false or ridiculously misleading. I wouldnt've expected anything less.

I don't have time to respond right now. Maybe later.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Quick thought:

Why did scum kill shraeye N1? He was barely posting at all. Could it be that he suspected ash of being scum?

[AndrewisFTTW]

Could it be because he suspected ash is what I meant.

[ashersky]

Could it be because he suspected ash is what I meant.

The "X was killed for suspecting Y" argument is always brought up by scum using it to make a point.  The actual argument should be "Z killed X because he suspecting Y and now we can use that to mislynch Y".

As for your question, I don't really know.  I could say "because shraeye supported the scumslip argument" as a reason you killed him, but hey, I didn't include that in my case because it isn't really a good point.

My gut says PR hunting -- maybe he slipped something on D1?  It's RMM, so everyone has a "role" anyway, but who knows what scum is after, other than scum?

[ashersky]

The actual argument should be "Z killed X because he suspecting Y and now we can use that to mislynch Y".

Also, Z = Andrew, for those who like math.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Two more quick thoughts:

1) ash is an experienced enough player to know a flimsy argument when he sees one. How come ALL of his arguments are flimsy? It looks so fake to me.

2) Arch could be scum fame claiming seraph knight to gain major towncred. What has nobody considered this?

[ashersky]

Two more quick thoughts:

1) ash is an experienced enough player to know a flimsy argument when he sees one. How come ALL of his arguments are flimsy? It looks so fake to me.

2) Arch could be scum fame claiming seraph knight to gain major towncred. What has nobody considered this?

You can't say "ash's arguments are flimsy" without showing how they are flimsy, man.

I laid out a scum narrative based on events and claims.  That's not flismy, that's making a case.  Remember, this game is a matter of taking what bits of information we have and forming a complete picture correctly.  It's like hangman.

You have _N__E_ _S _C_M an you have to figure out what it spells.  My argument is that the most likely scenario is that it says "ANDREW IS SCUM."  You may have a different explanation, but I have a hard time coming up with one.

[AndrewisFTTW]

First of all, that list you so casually credited to Xeiron was actually my list. Xeiron added the dead players. Now onto your flimsy arguments.

So Andrew claims to have blocked TA, who killed faust anyway.

This proves nothing. WW was a redirector.

Andrew claims to have jailed (doc + targeted) yuma, who killed ww anyway.

Jimmy say WW targeted me and TA says he shot WW.

Andrew claims to have doctored his 2nd highest scum read.

No. I doctored a town read at the time. Once Xeiron and XP died, he became a scum read. I said this already. I'm sick of repeating myself.

Yeah, that all looks great.  He of course has the cover of a scum player who flipped redirector, and has claimed a role that changes if he's targeted.

This proves nothing.

Here's a scum narrative for you: what if he does have a role like that, and a partner who is a redirector?  How about you have your partner direct you where you want to have whatever action to take happen, to ensure it happens?  It's like a trade off, where the partner can't redirect town but you get a stronger scum power for Andrew.  Does that fit any flavor in the books?  Working together to do magic or something?  Regardless, he claims to have been targeting all kinds of stuff in the middle of all the action the first two nights, and then when the redirector is dead, all he did was doctor someone who was his 2nd highest scum read and probably unlikely to be killed.

Unlikely to be killed? How do you figure that? Jimm claimed tracker and XP claimed mailman. Why would scum pick mailman over tracker?

Let's think this through again.  He DOCTORED his 2ND HIGHEST SCUM READ.

Still wrong.

Also, in the list of "going to die tonight" people, where does Jimmmmm fall at the end of yesterday?  I mean, we have basically IC yuma, we have claimed bodyguard guy Arch protecting him--so one or the other makes sense to protect.  We had xerxes who claimed he would be confirmed town today if he lived.  Why protect Jimmmmm ahead of any of those three?

I explained this already too. The whole game (the WHOLE game) I've been answering questions BEFORE you ask them. Do you have any idea how annoying that is?

I get it, I'm your biggest scumread.  Block me, then.  But you don't doc me, anyway.  So your choices were: yuma, arch, xeiron, xerxes, Jimmmm.  I have to think that Jimmmmm comes 4th on that list to protect for any town doctor.  Xeiron is probably dead anyway, so he stays at the bottom.

See above.

So we have N1/N2 claims contrary to what actually happened, with the built in excuse of a scum redirector.  But his own claim makes sense as a partner to the redirector, as a way to use his power.

Nevermind the fact that there WAS a redirector and he DID target me, according to Jimm.

And we have an N3 claim completely different from his thinking on N1/N2, which fits with not having his redirector buddy to help him anymore.  And he targeted the second least sensible person to target.

It was pretty sensible to me, I'm sorry you didn't see it that way. This is the third time in this post that you've made this "argument" and it's just as flimsy as the first time.

[ashersky]

I don't think you mean "flimsy" man.  Really.

You have Jimmmmm as your 2nd highest scum read right now.  That's not in any way "flimsy" right?  And you are using him as your defense?

Andrew claims to have jailed (doc + targeted) yuma, who killed ww anyway.

Jimmy say WW targeted me and TA says he shot WW.

So we have N1/N2 claims contrary to what actually happened, with the built in excuse of a scum redirector.  But his own claim makes sense as a partner to the redirector, as a way to use his power.

Nevermind the fact that there WAS a redirector and he DID target me, according to Jimm.

Two of your defenses to my points are saying "look, scumread jimmmmm says I'm nice!"  Is he scum or not?  If he's scum, how are his claims proof you are town?

[ashersky]

Meanwhile, all you have is "ashersky is a meanie head" as far as your case goes.

Feel free to be annoyed, bothered, upset, etc. all day.  It has zero to do with my alignment, and it isn't a case.  Ask yuma, who's in this game, if how YOU feel about ME has any bearing on if I'm scum or town.  I irritate people all day as either.

This is a game and it gets heated and if you can't take it, it doesn't make me scum.

Thing is, it normally wouldn't make you scum either.  Except you aren't super angry like town.  Look at how mcmc went down when he was mislynched at lylo to give Axxle the win in M40.  That's how town gets upset.  You are just too calm and collected while trying to seem upset with my "flimsy" arguments.

So I'm pretty sure you aren't actually irritated at all.  You just want to get the attention off of you and onto a mislynch.

[yuma]

ash maybe you answered this already but I do have a question...

I see your case on andrew and will look at it more fully soon. However, right now you are saying we should try and find the one out of three. I agree. But I do not see you considering at Jimmmmm at all. Is it just that you see your case so convincing on Andrew that you don't need to look at Jimmmmm?

[yuma]

2) Arch could be scum fame claiming seraph knight to gain major towncred. What has nobody considered this?

People have considered it. Don't worry about that. If you think I am town then you think Arch is town. Do you think I am town?

[yuma]

Meanwhile, all you have is "ashersky is a meanie head" as far as your case goes.

Feel free to be annoyed, bothered, upset, etc. all day.  It has zero to do with my alignment, and it isn't a case.  Ask yuma, who's in this game, if how YOU feel about ME has any bearing on if I'm scum or town.  I irritate people all day as either.

This is a game and it gets heated and if you can't take it, it doesn't make me scum.

Thing is, it normally wouldn't make you scum either.  Except you aren't super angry like town.  Look at how mcmc went down when he was mislynched at lylo to give Axxle the win in M40.  That's how town gets upset.  You are just too calm and collected while trying to seem upset with my "flimsy" arguments.

So I'm pretty sure you aren't actually irritated at all.  You just want to get the attention off of you and onto a mislynch.

ash I do feel like Andrew is bringing up valid points. And all you are doing is ignoring those valid comments and focusing on the AtE--yes there is some and maybe it is scummy, I don't know yet--rather than addressing the points themselves. That is going to make anyone frustrated.

I am not interested in talking about "seeming upset" or "faking emotions" or accusations of "being a meanie." I am interested in the arguments and the points, nothing more. This doesn't mean I have made up my mind either way... I still am. I am just trying to work through the cloud of feelings that have been created by both parties to try and get to the real answers.

[ashersky]

ash maybe you answered this already but I do have a question...

I see your case on andrew and will look at it more fully soon. However, right now you are saying we should try and find the one out of three. I agree. But I do not see you considering at Jimmmmm at all. Is it just that you see your case so convincing on Andrew that you don't need to look at Jimmmmm?

I know that if there are two scum left, it has to be in {Andrew Jimmmmm Archetype yuma}

I know that if there is one scum left, same deal.  To me, I have to find one scum, then worry about the other if there is one.  I've focused on Andrew all game, obviously, and I'm confident there.  I'm very confident there.  So put that as the 90% percentile, willing to bet the game, read.

After that, I'm fairly mixed.  Outside of claims, etc., I have varying town reads on all three of you.  Inside of claims, my gut wants to suspect yuma, but it doesn't mesh with my reads, and I want to believe Jimmmmm, but doesn't mesh with the claims.  I mean, Arch had the most ridiculous claim, but that's the only thing I can confirm.

Do I need to spend time looking for scum in you three?  Only if there are two left.  If there's a single scum left, it's in his best interest to push for folks to do the partner search, especially if we're closing in on the right person.  My preference is to lynch one scum today and see if we need to keep searching.

Having a second partner lynched will give us so much more to re-read and look for.

[AndrewisFTTW]

I don't think you mean "flimsy" man.  Really.

You have Jimmmmm as your 2nd highest scum read right now.  That's not in any way "flimsy" right?  And you are using him as your defense?

Andrew claims to have jailed (doc + targeted) yuma, who killed ww anyway.

Jimmy say WW targeted me and TA says he shot WW.

So we have N1/N2 claims contrary to what actually happened, with the built in excuse of a scum redirector.  But his own claim makes sense as a partner to the redirector, as a way to use his power.

Nevermind the fact that there WAS a redirector and he DID target me, according to Jimm.

Two of your defenses to my points are saying "look, scumread jimmmmm says I'm nice!"  Is he scum or not?  If he's scum, how are his claims proof you are town?

I already answered how Jimm could be scum and telling the truth about WW targeting me in order to not be contradicted. Here it is:

WW targeted me on N2 according to Jimm. Do you really think scum would target one of his partners? If Jimm is scum he would be lying about targeting WW N2 but would  still know that WW targeted me.

[yuma]

I know that if there are two scum left, it has to be in {Andrew Jimmmmm Archetype yuma}

I know that if there is one scum left, same deal.  To me, I have to find one scum, then worry about the other if there is one.  I've focused on Andrew all game, obviously, and I'm confident there.  I'm very confident there.  So put that as the 90% percentile, willing to bet the game, read.

After that, I'm fairly mixed.  Outside of claims, etc., I have varying town reads on all three of you.  Inside of claims, my gut wants to suspect yuma, but it doesn't mesh with my reads, and I want to believe Jimmmmm, but doesn't mesh with the claims.  I mean, Arch had the most ridiculous claim, but that's the only thing I can confirm.

Do I need to spend time looking for scum in you three?  Only if there are two left.  If there's a single scum left, it's in his best interest to push for folks to do the partner search, especially if we're closing in on the right person.  My preference is to lynch one scum today and see if we need to keep searching.

Having a second partner lynched will give us so much more to re-read and look for.

That is a lot of words and very little of it about what I am asking about... Jimmmmm.

Right now the choice is between Jimmmm, you and Andrew. So Jimmmm and Andrew for you. You seem to be just pounding Andrew, but not looking to see if Jimmmmm is a valid or even a more valid option than Andrew. I know you have had a read on him all game, I get that. But have you looked at Jimmmmm is what I am asking. If you have please point me in that direction and continue to look at him. If you tunnel I am more likely to not want to follow it because I want you to be looking in both directions and coming to a correct conclusion, not making a decision and forcing everything to fit it.

And we have a mafia lynched already in WW. I don't feel we have fully utilized that information as a whole yet.

[ashersky]

ash I do feel like Andrew is bringing up valid points. And all you are doing is ignoring those valid comments and focusing on the AtE--yes there is some and maybe it is scummy, I don't know yet--rather than addressing the points themselves. That is going to make anyone frustrated.

I am not interested in talking about "seeming upset" or "faking emotions" or accusations of "being a meanie." I am interested in the arguments and the points, nothing more. This doesn't mean I have made up my mind either way... I still am. I am just trying to work through the cloud of feelings that have been created by both parties to try and get to the real answers.

I'm not sure I'm seeing valid points.  His defense for his night action inconsistencies is "scum had a redirector" and "scum!read Jimmmmm says it happened."  His reasoning for doctoring Jimmmmm over you or arch is faulty.  I've provided a possible narrative where "scum had a redirector" works with Andrew being scum.

I've even given reasons in the past where Andrew could have been town.  I unvoted after his claim on D1.  I pointed out that the redirector could have pointed his block at me, resulting in no result on N2.  I'm looking at both sides, but the evil side is just might stronger.

Andrew has been going with gut and read against me, and tunnelled all game.  No even-handed look.  No considering I could be incorrect town (if he's town).  He's furiously digging out of a hole that just keeps getting bigger.  That's how it seems to me, anyway.

[ashersky]

That is a lot of words and very little of it about what I am asking about... Jimmmmm.

Right now the choice is between Jimmmm, you and Andrew. So Jimmmm and Andrew for you. You seem to be just pounding Andrew, but not looking to see if Jimmmmm is a valid or even a more valid option than Andrew. I know you have had a read on him all game, I get that. But have you looked at Jimmmmm is what I am asking. If you have please point me in that direction and continue to look at him. If you tunnel I am more likely to not want to follow it because I want you to be looking in both directions and coming to a correct conclusion, not making a decision and forcing everything to fit it.

And we have a mafia lynched already in WW. I don't feel we have fully utilized that information as a whole yet.

I had a town read on Jimmmmm early, he's definitely not anywhere close to the scumminess of Andrew.  If the choice is Andrew or Jimmmmm, that's super easy.  If everyone else votes for Jimmmmm, well that's that.  I'm trying to convince you (and everyone) to lynch Andrew.

I'll re-read Jimmmmm, if that's what you are asking me to do.  I assume you're doing the same.

[yuma]

One point that comes to me as to why Andrew is town is this:

If is scum and he has a blocking role then I should be dead. Archetype already stated that if he is blocked his protection of me doesn't work, thus freeing up mafia to kill me.

Not 100% solid, but I do think it is something.

[AndrewisFTTW]

I don't know where you get that I'm calling you mean or whatever. I've been presenting a case on you for most of the game and your responses have been sarcastic and unhelpful. I've pointed this out because to me it's fake, it's distracting, it's annoying, and it's scummy. But in the end, I can go back and quote my previous suspicions and cases on you. So please don't say my whole case is AtE because that's false.

[yuma]

I had a town read on Jimmmmm early, he's definitely not anywhere close to the scumminess of Andrew.  If the choice is Andrew or Jimmmmm, that's super easy.  If everyone else votes for Jimmmmm, well that's that.  I'm trying to convince you (and everyone) to lynch Andrew.

I'll re-read Jimmmmm, if that's what you are asking me to do.  I assume you're doing the same.

I would like you to yes, and I will as well. I want to know if your motivation is "get Andrew lynched" or "find and lynch scum." They might result in the same thing, but the motivation is very different. Right now it looks like you are more interested in the first.

[yuma]

Also there is a very distinct possibility that Andrew and ashersky are mafia together and this is just mafia fighting with a partner to get credit. WW said this was something that was likely at one point day1--I think the only player to say it was likely. Jimmmm and Archetype I would love to hear your thoughts on this possibility...

[AndrewisFTTW]

Yes I think you're town Yuma. Why does that mean Arch is town?

[AndrewisFTTW]

Yuma, is tunneling like this something town!ash would do?  As far as meta is concerned, I'm lost. I'm just going by what I perceive to be scummy.

[ashersky]

Jimmmmm (125 posts total):

Pre-game:
#1: Tags.
#2: BBT joke.
#3: BBT joke #2.
#4: Ins.

Day 1:
#5: RVS votes for Archetype
#6: Joke
#7: Joke about ashersky not having a plan.
#8: More ashersky plan jokes.
#9: Brings up the idea of a daykill SK after yuma's claim.
#10: Votes for sudgy after sudgy voted for yuma.
#11: Comes up with X-Shot Day/Night SK idea.
#12: Responds to xeiron voting him; explains his thought process for evaluating yuma's claim.
#13: Responds to xeiron's respond; calls him out for "terrible reasoning."
#14: Responds to shraeye asking if the "terrible" was regular terrible or scum terrible.  Ends on terribly terrible.
#15: Joke on Occam's Razor to ashersky.
#16: Points out another "meaningless" post by ashersky.
#17: Gives a town read on ashersky regardless.  Says ashersky's point on Andrew has merit.  Also says scummy vibe on Arch.
#18: Says Andrew should seriously think about claiming and that we need to know if yuma's going to shoot or not.
#19: Says there's no rush to claim, asks Andrew who we should be lynching instead.
#20: Points out something ashersky said as close to something ashersky said in a different game as scum.
#21: Gives some reads: yuma's definitely town, ashersky is probably town, Andrew has a decent chance of flipping scum, usual scummy vibe from Arch, needs to re-read xeiron.
#22: Shraeye asks Jimmmm to elaborate on Arch; Jimmmmm says he can't after reread.
#23: Asks shraeye is ashersky being "worried" about him is enough to change his town read.
#24: Jimmmmm says ashersky doesn't like to bus as scum in response to TA.
#25: TA points out he was talking about sudgy, not ashersky.
#26: Responds to the Andrew/Sudgy discussion about putting Andrew to L-1.
#27: Responds to Andrew, says derphammers are pretty rare, and that since ashersky was already voting, that hammer wasn't a wory.
#28: Responds to being prodded.  Asks not to be lynched, claims town.
#29: Responds to ashersky saying that a Jimmmmm who apologizes for lurking could be a scum!Jimmmmm by pointing out that his example was wrong.
#30: Responds to Archetype pointing out that, in fact, ashersky was right about the example.
#31: Closer to deadline, says he doesn't have many reads.  He is okay to lynch Andrew.  Does not want to lynch yuma or ash.  Sudgy seems like an easy potential mislynch.  He then unvotes.
#32: Plug for Dice Mafia.
#33: Reread XP and points out one odd post.
#34: States present and ready to vote.
#35: Says will probably vote Andrew, but wants to re-read sudgy first.
#36: Votes for Andrew after re-read.
#37: Responds to ashersky telling TA we don't have the votes for sudgy by stating he would vote for sudgy to ensure a lynch.
#38: Responds to TA stating he wanted to see if Jimmmmm really would vote for sudgy.
#39: Says yuma should just vig Andrew.
#40: Clarification post.
#41: Joke.
#42: Says vigging would prove the claim.
#43: Asks for clarification from Andrew right after ashersky does.
#44: Says it sounds believeable.  Asks if Andrew's thought about what he'll be doing.
#45: After being accused of fishing, says he thinks Andrew's smart enough not to give too much away.
#46-54: Many one-liners as we approach deadline.

That's all of Day 1.  I had a town read on Jimmmmm back then, on re-read that remains the case.  Nothing out of the ordinary on D1 stick outs to me.  There's zero interaction with WW, I suppose.

So a D1 comparison of Jimmmmm vs. Andrew and Andrew way ahead in scum points.  Posting this now and moving on to D2.