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[yuma]

Oh, right. I thought he just got to choose one, but I remember that now.

I thought it was that he got to choose one, but if he was targeted he then became both--thus a JK....

Obviously we should have Andrew clarify himself.

But if true then I am assuming that no one targeted Andrew last night because my kill on WW went through (something I was kinda worried about, that it would be blocked by Andrew) thus I wasn't JKed but instead was doctored.

[ashersky]

Oh, right. I thought he just got to choose one, but I remember that now.

In Dominion terms:

"Choose one: Protect your target from one nightkill or your target cannot take any actions tonight.  If another player targets you while you play this card, do both options."

It's all fake anyway.

[ashersky]

But if true then I am assuming that no one targeted Andrew last night because my kill on WW went through (something I was kinda worried about, that it would be blocked by Andrew) thus I wasn't JKed but instead was doctored.

If you believe Andrew, then who roleblocked me?

[Twistedarcher]

But if true then I am assuming that no one targeted Andrew last night because my kill on WW went through (something I was kinda worried about, that it would be blocked by Andrew) thus I wasn't JKed but instead was doctored.

If you believe Andrew, then who roleblocked me?

I mean, anyone who's scum could also be a scum roleblocker.

If anyone says they targeted Andrew last night, that means that we should lynch him, right? Since then Yuma's kill wouldn't have gone through?

[Twistedarcher]

It's also possible that there's a SK who also targeted WW, and Yuma's shot WAS blocked.

[ashersky]

But if true then I am assuming that no one targeted Andrew last night because my kill on WW went through (something I was kinda worried about, that it would be blocked by Andrew) thus I wasn't JKed but instead was doctored.

If you believe Andrew, then who roleblocked me?

I mean, anyone who's scum could also be a scum roleblocker.

If anyone says they targeted Andrew last night, that means that we should lynch him, right? Since then Yuma's kill wouldn't have gone through?

That is correct.  If Andrew is not lying about his role, and not lying about targeting yuma, then if anyone targeted him, yuma's kill should NOT have worked.

[Twistedarcher]

WW was on the Andrew wagon D1, not the Sudgy wagon, which is definitely a point in Andrew's favor.

[ashersky]

WW was on the Andrew wagon D1, not the Sudgy wagon, which is definitely a point in Andrew's favor.

In his favor for what?  To be scum bussed?  Andrew was looking pretty caught on D1, if you recall.

[Twistedarcher]

You think it's more likely that scum!WW busses teammate Andrew D1 than getting on Sudgy D1? Cause I would really disagree.

Andrew was not looking "pretty caught" D1. Sudgy was always an alternative. I think scum wants to press that alternative D1, yes it sucks getting caught pushing an altnerative to a teammate, but you know what sucks more? Getting a partner lynched D1. I think it's definitely a significant point in favor of Andrew being town.

[Twistedarcher]

WW was on the Andrew wagon D1, not the Sudgy wagon, which is definitely a point in Andrew's favor.

In his favor for what?  To be scum bussed?  Andrew was looking pretty caught on D1, if you recall.

This is using the assumption that Andrew is scum to prove that Andrew is scum, by the way, which is totally invalid...

[yuma]

It's all fake anyway.

Hey!

You want to help, go back and analyze WW and see what you can find, until then I am trusting Andrew on this. No one has claimed to have targeted Andrew to make what he is saying a lie. No one. I am trusting it for now.

As for who roleblocked you?? I don't know?? Maybe the SCUM ROLEBLOCKER!!??!!

His role, if it is true (which I think it is) probably saved me from being killed, is a great role for town and all you want to do is blindly lynch him. Yeah... Not happening!

[yuma]

WW was on the Andrew wagon D1, not the Sudgy wagon, which is definitely a point in Andrew's favor.

In his favor for what?  To be scum bussed?  Andrew was looking pretty caught on D1, if you recall.

This is using the assumption that Andrew is scum to prove that Andrew is scum, by the way, which is totally invalid...

I am glad I am not alone in trying to argue against ashersky's crazy reasoning here. Now we just need to figure out if he is scum being crazy or town being crazy... Not an easy task.

Another point in Andrew's favor (pro-tip: I went back and reread) he was voting WW BEFORE I said that the lynch candidates were going to be WW, ADK and Archetype. And then after I said it he did not deviate from it at all.

Basically ash is suggesting that:

1. andrew fake claimed something that has not been proven to be fake
2. has helped town immensely
3. andrew and WW bussed the hell out of each other day1 and day2 in games that would pretty much be their first as scum individually (Andrew was scum in that blitz games, but the blitz experience is so different from real games) after Andrew had seen what scum going down day1 did to my scum team in Adventure Time.

No Way! I am not buying it w/o definitive proof, which is amazingly lacking from anything ashersky has said recently or all game.

[yuma]

also using ash's logic that there can only be one RB type role in the game I would be suspect of him dor just that. ashersky obviously has some sort of investigative role capable of "clearing TA" but we already had a cop flip in ADK.

So I don't know why ash feels that there can only be one type of role. If this holds true (which I suspect it won't) ash is scum.

[ashersky]

also using ash's logic that there can only be one RB type role in the game I would be suspect of him dor just that. ashersky obviously has some sort of investigative role capable of "clearing TA" but we already had a cop flip in ADK.

So I don't know why ash feels that there can only be one type of role. If this holds true (which I suspect it won't) ash is scum.

Then shoot me, SK.  I'm done with this shit.

[ashersky]

Fuck, sorry.  It just really frustrates me when it's Yuma not understanding.  We've played/modded like 100 games together man.  You know me.

[AndrewisFTTW]

I don't understand how I would be lying if someone targeted me. If I was targeted, then I doctored and roleblocked yuma. Why couldn't WW's death be from the SK?

[yuma]

Fuck, sorry.  It just really frustrates me when it's Yuma not understanding.  We've played/modded like 100 games together man.  You know me.

I need you to full claim then. Cause you have me completely and totally lost.

I am not telling you to full claim, I am just saying that given the information that you have presented I do not see how you are connecting the dots. I understand you are on vacation and don't expect you to do a huge big post.

All I am saying is that unless there is something you aren't telling us then the logic you are using to find Andrew scummy (and I guess I should say part of the logic, cause your case isn't fully predicated on this individual unit) could also be used to make you look scummy. And I say neither should be...

Andrew to me is a strong, strong town read. He has been basically all game long. Everything he has done and everything that has happened continues to back that up. But you seem to be implying the opposite over and over again and I don't see how unless there is something you aren't telling us...

[Twistedarcher]

I'm with Yuma here. I lean town on ash though. It reminds me of him coming after me in clue.

Andrew it's possible certainly.

[Archetype]

vote: arch

Two reasons:

1) sk speculation on Yuma.
2) his views on me. Yes my role is confirmed. But to a town member that shouldn't confirm my alignment and he's treating it like it does. It seems more like he's scum who knows for sure I am town and therefore is treating it like fact.

I'd be very surprised if you were scum. I don't understand why scum!TA would confirm a townie.

[yuma]

vote: arch

Two reasons:

1) sk speculation on Yuma.
2) his views on me. Yes my role is confirmed. But to a town member that shouldn't confirm my alignment and he's treating it like it does. It seems more like he's scum who knows for sure I am town and therefore is treating it like fact.

I'd be very surprised if you were scum. I don't understand why scum!TA would confirm a townie.

I think what he is trying to say--and what I was getting at--is that you have said TA is townier than me. We have both done townier things--confirming a townie and shooting at a mafia. Your rebuttle is that I could be a SK, but you haven't addressed that TA could be mafia. He could be... and you aren't acknowledging that.

I mean look at what he ultimately did. He performed a rolecop investigation on me and confirmed that I was a dayvig. But everyone already knew I was a dayvig or at least very strongly suspected that I was. He didn't go out on a limb to give me towncred. I already had towncred! What he added was like 5% of the credit I had. Very low risk way of making a scummy role potentially look like a townie one.

Now... do I think TA is scum? No. Not at the moment. Part of that is his play, part of that is whatever it is that ash has not yet divulged about him.

[yuma]

Still, that's an excellent excellent excellent night.

Any chance fakeclaim is a good thing? Yuma's claimed, Andrew's claimed, Xerxes has claimed, I've basically claimed. That's half the game. The unclaimed are in Xeiron/Ashersky/Arch/Jimmmm where I think there is likely scum.

I disagree with you Yuma, I think Xeiron is likely town.

so I don't know if you ever fully explained this line of thought about xeiron

[yuma]

Well, from Sudgy's flavor/role getting disclosed, and knowing my own, I've learned that they are highly correlated.  So everyone's role makes sense in the context of their flavor.  With these other two (Loial and Min), it makes perfect sense.  So I think everyone's is.

Interesting tidbit here... it makes me think that mafia have fake claims of some sort (I mean beyond what it says in the setup about a fake flavor name)... unless WW was planning on claiming redirector as his role down the line (not unheard of for a town redirector eh ash? but not the most common either)

Basically WW is saying that whatever he was planning to claim down the line as his role needed to make really good sense thematically after he said this... given that so many of us don't know the flavor it makes me wonder if fake role claims were provided as well?? Or WW was very confident in his ability to come up with a role that fit his flavor

[yuma]

rereading and i am finding some really good stuff and i already have some pretty good leads, but i'll wait to share them... just posting to say the reread isn't that bad and there is stuff worth finding. I want to see who finds what and who is willing to show it to the rest of us...

[Archetype]

vote: arch

Two reasons:

1) sk speculation on Yuma.
2) his views on me. Yes my role is confirmed. But to a town member that shouldn't confirm my alignment and he's treating it like it does. It seems more like he's scum who knows for sure I am town and therefore is treating it like fact.

I'd be very surprised if you were scum. I don't understand why scum!TA would confirm a townie.

I think what he is trying to say--and what I was getting at--is that you have said TA is townier than me. We have both done townier things--confirming a townie and shooting at a mafia. Your rebuttle is that I could be a SK, but you haven't addressed that TA could be mafia. He could be... and you aren't acknowledging that.

I mean look at what he ultimately did. He performed a rolecop investigation on me and confirmed that I was a dayvig. But everyone already knew I was a dayvig or at least very strongly suspected that I was. He didn't go out on a limb to give me towncred. I already had towncred! What he added was like 5% of the credit I had. Very low risk way of making a scummy role potentially look like a townie one.

Now... do I think TA is scum? No. Not at the moment. Part of that is his play, part of that is whatever it is that ash has not yet divulged about him.

Yeah but that involves scum!TA being a Thief and targeting you N1 for whatever reason. If he's scum, he knows that you aren't lying, so why investigate you? Then again, your role ended up being more than just a DayVig so scum!TA could've gained some knowledge. So maybe I'm giving him too much credit, but I find it pretty unlikely that he's scum.

[xeiron]

I don't understand how I would be lying if someone targeted me. If I was targeted, then I doctored and roleblocked yuma. Why couldn't WW's death be from the SK?

I think this is the best explanation for the missing kills to now.
Mafia kills yuma, who is doctored.
SK kills witherweawer.
Yuma also kills witherweaver or is blocked.