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[Jimmmmm]

WHY NO HAMMER?

yuma, I know you withdrew this in your next comment, but why did you say it in the first place?

[AndrewisFTTW]

Okay I'm starting to see the benefit of having an Ash-type player around.  It's like the game stagnates when he's not yelling at someone.

Unless he's yelling about the wrong things on purpose.

WW situations change from day to day. It's not so cut and dry to look at something someone said a week and a half ago on D1 and compare it with what they said today. I'm not defending Xeiron, necessarily, and I'm not telling you to ignore stuff like that, but things change as the game progresses.

[Witherweaver]

Okay looking at Jimmm..

He's pretty gone throughout most of Day 1.  He starts off initially questioning Yuma's claim, there is a little back and forth there, and then he's gone.  Comes back throughout the beginning of the Ash/Andrew thing with a few comments.. I don't really find much in those, but I do get the impression that he's trying to sort stuff out.  But it doesn't feel like he's really saying or contributing a lot throughout. 

He's the gone for much of the time leading up to the deadline until about two hours before deadline (Reply 751, 06:05:22 pm).  Mentions that he'll probably vote Andrew, and will reread Sudgy.  Comes back 30 minutes before deadline and says he didn't find anything on Sudgy and votes Andrew (Reply 807).  He then says he'll vote for Sudgy to get a lynch if there isn't enough for Andrew (811).  Suggests Yuma dayvig Andrew (825) to prove Yuma's claim.  A few posts later he seems to agree that dayvigging Sudgy would be just as good.

Andrew claims, Jimm questions it, some back and forth.. consensus moves more towards Sudgy, some more back and forth, Jimm hammers with about 30 seconds to spare (876).

Day 2 Jimm seems a lot like beginning of Day 1 Jimm.  Not super present but not entirely absent.

Okay so two things stand out to me.  I can see a narrative that makes sense for scum!Jimm:

First, Jimm is super active right before the lynch, and puts (or is just put in) a position where he essentially decides who the lynch candidate is.  This is somewhat convenient, as if one of the lynch candidates were scum, he could decide the other one.  This seems risky for scum, but he has a pretty good cover story that he thinks a lynch is better than a no-lynch, which many people do agree on, and he'd probably maintain the same opinion whether he was town or scum.  So he has a lot of control over the lynching situation with a pre-established theory reason on why to hammer.  Moreover, he didn't really do any of the work to get the lynches going, only swooped in at the end.  A very similar thing happened in the other game I played, by scum.

Second, Jimm seems pretty concerned with peoples roles.  Okay, we all are, but he chimed in on Yuma early, suggested some shooting from Yuma to verify Yuma's role, started questioning Andrewis' claim (847, not sure if I linked it before).  I don't think he responded to Xerxes' claim, though.  Well, this one might be a wash.  I could see Jimm trying to dig a little deeper into roles to try to get some clues on who to target with night actions and who needs to be killed.  One the other hand, scum!Jimm would know if these claims come from town, and he might believe that town won't want to lie about their roles.  (I would like to believe that.) 

Okay, I'm not sure there's anything in the second point.  The first point I do find suspicious. 

I don't see a smoking gun here, but I can understand why people were voting for him.  I'd like to do something similar for the other people that seem to be "background" in this game, but I probably have to do some actual work today.

[Witherweaver]

Okay I'm starting to see the benefit of having an Ash-type player around.  It's like the game stagnates when he's not yelling at someone.

Unless he's yelling about the wrong things on purpose.

Yes, but my point was that still helps us.  If he's scum, then him posting a lot could reveal something and gives more opportunities for a mistake.  If you're scum, then the same thing with you posting a lot.  If neither of you are scum, it still helps because it gets other people involved in the discussion, and we can glean information from what they say.

WW situations change from day to day. It's not so cut and dry to look at something someone said a week and a half ago on D1 and compare it with what they said today. I'm not defending Xeiron, necessarily, and I'm not telling you to ignore stuff like that, but things change as the game progresses.

Right, I realize that, but it's not like Xeiron went from "Why question this?  It's probably true and it will be verifiable later," to "Okay, now I'm starting to doubt this claim."  He went from "Questioning Yuma and implying he may be scum is scummy, \vote" to "Yuma is scum, \vote"  It's the extreme change that I have trouble with.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Yeah I find Jimm suspicious too. My main suspects are Jimm, TA, and ash right now.

[AndrewisFTTW]

I personally don't see anything in that and I can see where he's coming from. I don't think we should be discussing yuma today, but he's somebody to keep an eye on.

All D1 I found Xeiron really scummy. D2 not so much. I can't say why exactly, maybe because I'm finding ash and TA so scummy instead.

[Witherweaver]

I personally don't see anything in that and I can see where he's coming from. I don't think we should be discussing yuma today, but he's somebody to keep an eye on.

All D1 I found Xeiron really scummy. D2 not so much. I can't say why exactly, maybe because I'm finding ash and TA so scummy instead.

I don't see TA at all. 

[AndrewisFTTW]

I posted a whole reread of his interactions with ash a while back. Not a spectacular case by any means but there at a  lulls things I took note of. It's alright though, I don't think we should be lynching him today anyway.

[AndrewisFTTW]

A couple things*

[Jimmmmm]

First, Jimm is super active right before the lynch, and puts (or is just put in) a position where he essentially decides who the lynch candidate is.  This is somewhat convenient, as if one of the lynch candidates were scum, he could decide the other one.

This is false. My preferred lynch between the two was Andrew, but I couldn't get that lynch through so I settled for the sudgy lynch ahead of no-lynch. I mean, you could say scum me would have let the no-lynch happen instead if the person in question was also scum, but I don't think that's particularly compelling.

I could see Jimm trying to dig a little deeper into roles to try to get some clues on who to target with night actions and who needs to be killed.

Is rolefishing actually a thing? It's something that people are accused of fairly regularly, but have we ever actually seen scum try to make a Townie accidentally say more about their role than they should? If someone who you are considering lynching claims, you can either accept it blindly, reject it blindly, or question them about it. Which of these do you think is best?

[Witherweaver]

First, Jimm is super active right before the lynch, and puts (or is just put in) a position where he essentially decides who the lynch candidate is.  This is somewhat convenient, as if one of the lynch candidates were scum, he could decide the other one.

This is false. My preferred lynch between the two was Andrew, but I couldn't get that lynch through so I settled for the sudgy lynch ahead of no-lynch. I mean, you could say scum me would have let the no-lynch happen instead if the person in question was also scum, but I don't think that's particularly compelling.

Which part is false? You're saying that Andrew lynch could not have happened?  When I was reading it looked like there was a point where both were viable.  I thought someone even said that it's going to come down to whichever one Jimmm chooses.

I could see Jimm trying to dig a little deeper into roles to try to get some clues on who to target with night actions and who needs to be killed.

Is rolefishing actually a thing? It's something that people are accused of fairly regularly, but have we ever actually seen scum try to make a Townie accidentally say more about their role than they should? If someone who you are considering lynching claims, you can either accept it blindly, reject it blindly, or question them about it. Which of these do you think is best?

To the rolefishing question, I honestly have no idea.

For the other point, my inclination is to question, too.  But there seems to be a dilemma in it.. the more you get someone to reveal about their role, but more (I'm assuming) you help the scum.  On the other hand, if they are lying, then they're more likely to get caught if they say more.  So I don't know here.

[Jimmmmm]

First, Jimm is super active right before the lynch, and puts (or is just put in) a position where he essentially decides who the lynch candidate is.  This is somewhat convenient, as if one of the lynch candidates were scum, he could decide the other one.

This is false. My preferred lynch between the two was Andrew, but I couldn't get that lynch through so I settled for the sudgy lynch ahead of no-lynch. I mean, you could say scum me would have let the no-lynch happen instead if the person in question was also scum, but I don't think that's particularly compelling.

Which part is false? You're saying that Andrew lynch could not have happened?  When I was reading it looked like there was a point where both were viable.  I thought someone even said that it's going to come down to whichever one Jimmm chooses.

It's false that I got to choose which lynch went through. Regardless of what you think someone said, I chose the Andrew lynch and the sudgy lynch went though.

[Witherweaver]

First, Jimm is super active right before the lynch, and puts (or is just put in) a position where he essentially decides who the lynch candidate is.  This is somewhat convenient, as if one of the lynch candidates were scum, he could decide the other one.

This is false. My preferred lynch between the two was Andrew, but I couldn't get that lynch through so I settled for the sudgy lynch ahead of no-lynch. I mean, you could say scum me would have let the no-lynch happen instead if the person in question was also scum, but I don't think that's particularly compelling.

Which part is false? You're saying that Andrew lynch could not have happened?  When I was reading it looked like there was a point where both were viable.  I thought someone even said that it's going to come down to whichever one Jimmm chooses.

It's false that I got to choose which lynch went through. Regardless of what you think someone said, I chose the Andrew lynch and the sudgy lynch went though.

I'm not convinced of this.  When you came back, Andrew had 4 votes with you and Ash not voting, and TA was on Sudgy but willing to lynch anyone to avoid a no lynch.  So that would lynch Andrew.  What changed it was Andrew claiming, not the Sudgy lynch being more viable.  Prior to the claiming, you were in a position to determine the lynch.  Or at least push the lynchee to the point of needing to claim.

Can't pull up quotes right now, but I think I have the events correctly.  Will try to concretize.

[Jorbles]

Vote Count 2.3:

ashersky (3): Archetype, XerxesPraelor, AndrewisFTTW
Jimmmmmm (1): yuma
XerxesPraelor (1): ashersky
xeiron (2): Twistedarcher, Jimmmmmm
AndrewisFTTW (1): A Drowned Kernel
yuma (1): xeiron

Not Voting (1): Witherweaver

With 10 alive it takes 6 to lynch.

Day 2 ends on April 15 at 11:30 PM FT.

[A Drowned Kernel]

My opinions on this game are very vague and ill-formed, and I totally stopped keeping up with. From what I remember, Andrew and ash have been at each other's throats, and there's very good chance one of them is scum. I could see it being either of them, and they're probably my top two lynch candidates for today.

The only people I don't think I'd lynch are witherweaver, who seems very townie on a brief reread, and yuma, though the longer he goes without shooting the more I'm likely to vote for him.

So I guess doing the list thing, but splitting into three:

Would like to lynch:
AndrewisFTTW
ashersky

Would be willing to lynch:
XP
xeiron
TA
jim
archetype

Would not be willing to lynch:
ww, yuma, me

Out of the "willing to lynch", I'm pretty even on all of them for now. Maybe a targeted reread is in the future now that this is my only mafia game.

[xeiron]

What I see is yuma, doing exactly what he would do if he was lying scum.
Talking up his own credibility, and refusing to prove his claim.
On the other hand, if he was town, I would expect some understanding from him on the nedd of verifying his claim.
I think yuma is scum by now.

It's Day 2. You really think that, regardless of how many shots he has and any other aspects to his role, that the optimal strategy for a Town Dayvig is to shoot someone in the first 2 Days? I mean yeah, yuma will have to shoot someone by the end of the game, or he will look incredibly scummy, and there will come a point at which I will strongly advocate lynching him based on not seeing any evidence of his verifiable claim. But it's certainly too early for that.

What kind of "understanding" would you expect from Town yuma?

Yes, I think it is optimal play to shoot today.
"shoot at the end of the game" you say, but there are risks of shooting in lylo situations.

Imagine this worst case developement. We mislynch today following by two more night deaths (including any third party that might be in the game.) The situation then is seven people left. 4 town and 3 scum. (we have already discussed scumteam sizes, and three scum in this game is a safe assumtion.)

If Yuma shoots in this situation and hits town, it is game over. If he don't shoot, we do not know if we should lynch him or someone else.

Yes, this was a worst case scenario, but since we know it is safe for yuma to confirm his claim today, why gamble that it will not be to late tomorow?

[xeiron]

Doing some rereading.

Xeiron, it's hard to reconcile these two extremes:

Would some kind of DaySK work?

Vote: jimm
For implying that yuma is someone that we might want to lynch.

What I see is yuma, doing exactly what he would do if he was lying scum.
Talking up his own credibility, and refusing to prove his claim.
On the other hand, if he was town, I would expect some understanding from him on the nedd of verifying his claim.
I think yuma is scum by now.

vote: yuma

Yes, my read of yuma has changed from early D1 and to now. It has something to do with claiming and then not confirming that claim.

[xeiron]

What I see is yuma, doing exactly what he would do if he was lying scum.
Talking up his own credibility, and refusing to prove his claim.
On the other hand, if he was town, I would expect some understanding from him on the nedd of verifying his claim.
I think yuma is scum by now.

It's Day 2. You really think that, regardless of how many shots he has and any other aspects to his role, that the optimal strategy for a Town Dayvig is to shoot someone in the first 2 Days? I mean yeah, yuma will have to shoot someone by the end of the game, or he will look incredibly scummy, and there will come a point at which I will strongly advocate lynching him based on not seeing any evidence of his verifiable claim. But it's certainly too early for that.

What kind of "understanding" would you expect from Town yuma?

As for the understanding part.

If yuma is fakeclaiming scum, there is really only one way to play. That is to refuse to shoot someone (yet), using whatever explanations/exuses/promises neccessary to stay alive for as many days as possible.

I would apretiate if town yuma would try to differentiate his play from the play he would have to do as scum. What I really want him to do is to shoot someone, but being willing to discus the best way for him to confirm his claim would be a start, rather than the 'not yet, and not under pressure' as I have seen from him so far.

[yuma]

vote: yuma

townread on xeiron

i don't think mafia, who would know I am telling the truth, would try to aggravate me this much for fear of me shooting them... which honestly I was tempted (kinda... but not really) to do

but that does not change my stance. I will not shoot unless I have a bona fide reason to shoot someone.  And right now I don't

[yuma]

I would apretiate if town yuma would try to differentiate his play from the play he would have to do as scum. What I really want him to do is to shoot someone, but being willing to discus the best way for him to confirm his claim would be a start, rather than the 'not yet, and not under pressure' as I have seen from him so far.

If i were scum i wouldn't be claiming this role.... but if somehow I was forced to I see your points and acknowledge them, but that still isn't going to change my mind. It just won't. If you want to think I am being stubborn, or scummy, you may. But I am not changing my mind on this. I would hope you would see how unlikely this claim works and give me some trust, but I understand if that is something you don't feel comfortable giving.

[yuma]

WHY NO HAMMER?

yuma, I know you withdrew this in your next comment, but why did you say it in the first place?

I got caught up in the lynch mob mentality fervor (which is surprisingly easy to do...) while cooking up some yogurt and feta cheese marinated chicken and mini-pepper kabobs...

basically I got distracted from the game and forgot that I didn't like the sudgy lynch.... I already mentioned that I feel I should have unvoted at the last moment to get around the blackmail--although there were enough of you there to lynch andrew instead I think... so that probably would have backfired

[Twistedarcher]

Question to someone who knows flavor, since my attempts at figuring this out on the WoT wiki have been ambiguous:

Would a character holding a maiden spear be good or evil?

[Twistedarcher]

Unvote

Xeiron is townier today. WW, too (not that I thought he was particularly scummy D1)

Yuma, I totally am failing to fololow up on Sudgy's lynch, I will try to get to that (and I know I keep saying this..)

[Witherweaver]

Question to someone who knows flavor, since my attempts at figuring this out on the WoT wiki have been ambiguous:

Would a character holding a maiden spear be good or evil?

Good.  That would be an Aeil, and they were swell.  For the most part.  Okay there was a clan who were pricks, so maybe you need some context.

But those questions give stuff away!  I don't think we should be asking them.

[yuma]

Unvote

Xeiron is townier today. WW, too (not that I thought he was particularly scummy D1)

Yuma, I totally am failing to fololow up on Sudgy's lynch, I will try to get to that (and I know I keep saying this..)

Not having time I understand... I don;t have much either... rather it is specifically people who are putting a lot of energy into discussing me and my role or sk theories INSTEAD of doing actual scum hunting... and it is compounded because instead of me scum hunting with my little time I am writing rebuttals to these arguments...