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[ashersky]

So everyone who said that it was important that we get a flip and not no-lynch... what did we learn from the sudgy lynch?

I'll wait...

Also this was never addressed. In a few days I am going to go back and call out everyone who said that a flip was so essential to get information from. I have yet to see said information to find scum.

I'll wait...

After that I will start looking heavily at those who voted for this reason and will probably vote in that area unless something tangible is presented.

You couldn't use this snarky tone if the lynch hadn't happened, you know?

The reason a lynch is so preferred on D1 is that all the interactions we have on record mean zilch if we can't confirm anyone's alignment (other than our own).  If we hadn't lynched sudgy on D1, for example, could you call people out for pushing/not pushing the mislynch, or for voting it with the easy excuse of "we need a lynch" or anything else?  No, you'd literally have zero information to go off of because a no lynch gives us no information.  Sure, we'd have one more townie to work with us today, but we wouldn't know sudgy was town, and so we'd be spinning our wheels again today on the same stuff.

You are right that we haven't done the appropriate amount of research and analysis of the wagon and the way it formed.  But that's on everyone still alive today (including you), not the wagon itself.  It's easy for you to act omniscent now that sudgy's flipped.  The same way you'd look pretty damn scummy if he'd flipped scum.

[yuma]

You couldn't use this snarky tone if the lynch hadn't happened, you know?

The reason a lynch is so preferred on D1 is that all the interactions we have on record mean zilch if we can't confirm anyone's alignment (other than our own).  If we hadn't lynched sudgy on D1, for example, could you call people out for pushing/not pushing the mislynch, or for voting it with the easy excuse of "we need a lynch" or anything else?  No, you'd literally have zero information to go off of because a no lynch gives us no information.  Sure, we'd have one more townie to work with us today, but we wouldn't know sudgy was town, and so we'd be spinning our wheels again today on the same stuff.

You are right that we haven't done the appropriate amount of research and analysis of the wagon and the way it formed.  But that's on everyone still alive today (including you), not the wagon itself.  It's easy for you to act omniscent now that sudgy's flipped.  The same way you'd look pretty damn scummy if he'd flipped scum.

I know the reason for lynching... but I disagree that it is so cut and dry here. We have info. We just don't necessarily have that info brought into the public view (this is RMM, people know stuff) also we have info from shraeye and faust being dead (not as good yes, but still pretty good). And I am not disagreeing with you that information is good. But I do not think it is worth lynching someone who you (and I know you didn't, but I did...) have a strong town read on. The only reason I joined the wagon was because I was blackmailed into it... and now I am realizing what I should have done was join and then bail at the very last second... but I was busy cooking at that time and didn't think through the whole scenario... And yes we wouldn't "know" sudgy was town, but I think I could have and did present a pretty compelling argument for why he was very, very likely to be...

But ultimately what I am saying is that people joined that wagon for the express purpose of "we need it for info!!! GAH!!!" and then have failed to go and get that info. The lack of incentive on their part to me is scummy because they have failed to justify their means which makes me think that they just joined to get a lynch and don't care about the info--scummy behavior.

I joined the wagon to make sure Andrew didn't get lynched, so I don't see why I should be responsibile for gathering this precious data.

And yes, I am being snarky. I get to be snarky. He flipped town. If he flipped scum then I woulnd't be. But he didn't. He flipped town, so snark, snark, snark!!!

[Witherweaver]

This is what bothers me:

Late yesterday, before the lynch:

I can either doctor or roleblock. If someone targets me, I both doctor and roleblock my target.

vote: sudgy

And then early today:

I asked if an ash lynch was viable yesterday and got no reply. I expected Andrew to die, so him being alive incriminates ash. I haven't reread the stuff leading up to sudgy's lynch, but voting for ashersky doesn't seem like too bad of a place to start.

Ash: do you still think Andrew is scum?

I still haven't gotten a response as to why Andrew being alive has anything to do with me.  He was my top scum read, then he claimed a strong town role, then he survived with one of the strongest town roles I can think of.  None of which means I'm scum.

I'm still catching up.  Andrew's posts on D2 sound towny, and his "yuma wasn't an NK target?" slip makes him either conf!town or his second scumslip of the game.  Again, I will put it out there that it is just ridonkulous that scum goes "hey, we know for sure that guy is a doctor AND a roleblocker, so let's leave him alive, especially since at the end of D1 it didn't look like anyone wanted to lynch him."  Would you leave such as strong PR who is basically believed by everyone alive as scum?

So I think it's still very possible that Andrew is scum who had a great fakeclaim.

If the claim was valid before, why isn't it valid now?  What if scum kept him alive because they knew it would make him look more more suspicious and it would cast doubt on his claim, which is probably the thing that kept him alive yesterday?  So they could rekindle the wagon?  Or maybe scum team has a Roleblocker themselves. 

Why are you not thinking that Andrew fake claim is the less likely of the scenarios?

[ashersky]

If the claim was valid before, why isn't it valid now?  What if scum kept him alive because they knew it would make him look more more suspicious and it would cast doubt on his claim, which is probably the thing that kept him alive yesterday?  So they could rekindle the wagon?  Or maybe scum team has a Roleblocker themselves. 

Why are you not thinking that Andrew fake claim is the less likely of the scenarios?

The claim was believeable.  Still is, as plenty seem to believe it now.  At a snap decision moment, close to deadline, I went with my reading of his reaction to the question in the moment -- he's a newbie, I have specific expectations of how he might react, just like I have a different expectation of how yuma would react.

You have a valid point that "maybe scum kept him alive."  But that's just WIFOM in the end.  I know if I was scum, and I was able, I'd have taken out a doctor + roleblocker.  My opinion is that his survival is scummier than not.

I could be wrong.  Not like I'm screaming 1000% here.  But we're a bit low on leads right now, and I still trust my D1 reads.

[Jimmmmm]

I'll wait...

I think we should lynch sudgy Today. He's probably scum. Oh wait, we did that already! Now we can make progress towards lynching actual scum instead of giving them a free kill and then doing what we would have done anyway.

[ashersky]

Remember, deaths do help us POE scum.  Here's the list:

1. Archetype
2. yuma
3. XerxesPraelor
4. xeiron
5. faust Elmindreda (Min) Farshaw, a Viewer (Voyeur).--Killed N1
6. Twistedarcher
7. Witherweaver
8. shraeye Loial son of Arent son of Halan, an Ogier 1-shot Commuter.--Killed N1
9. sudgy Elayne Trankand, a Ter'angreal Maker (Inventor)--Lynched D1
10. A Drowned Kernel
11. AndrewisFTTW
12. Jimmmmm
13. ashersky

That narrows it down to:

1. Archetype
2. yuma
3. XerxesPraelor
4. xeiron
6. Twistedarcher
7. Witherweaver
10. A Drowned Kernel
11. AndrewisFTTW
12. Jimmmmm
13. ashersky

Then, for town, you narrow down by removing yourself plus your strongest town/not lynching today reads.  For me:

1. Archetype
3. XerxesPraelor
4. xeiron
7. Witherweaver
10. A Drowned Kernel
11. AndrewisFTTW
12. Jimmmmm

So, I'm looking for a subset of this group to be working together to kill us all, and possible one of them to be trying to kill everyone.  Looking within a group of 7 is good.

I think everyone should do this.

[Witherweaver]

If the claim was valid before, why isn't it valid now?  What if scum kept him alive because they knew it would make him look more more suspicious and it would cast doubt on his claim, which is probably the thing that kept him alive yesterday?  So they could rekindle the wagon?  Or maybe scum team has a Roleblocker themselves. 

Why are you not thinking that Andrew fake claim is the less likely of the scenarios?

The claim was believeable.  Still is, as plenty seem to believe it now.  At a snap decision moment, close to deadline, I went with my reading of his reaction to the question in the moment -- he's a newbie, I have specific expectations of how he might react, just like I have a different expectation of how yuma would react.

You have a valid point that "maybe scum kept him alive."  But that's just WIFOM in the end.  I know if I was scum, and I was able, I'd have taken out a doctor + roleblocker.  My opinion is that his survival is scummier than not.

I could be wrong.  Not like I'm screaming 1000% here.  But we're a bit low on leads right now, and I still trust my D1 reads.

You're not screaming 1000%?  You sound really really sure:

I never should have bought your crap on D1, though.  It's clear you were lying through your teeth.

If you aren't scum, I will eat joth's hat.

If we had lynched you as I pressed from the beginning, we'd be that much closer to winning.  I lost the debate with yuma, you survived, congrats.

Okay fine I buy your argument that scum would take out Andrew.  BUT do you really think it's that unlikely that there isn't another kind of explanation?  Why are you so certain here?

[ashersky]

Other explanations exist.  I mean, look at the game that just ended and how it turned out the least obvious, sensible explanation was actually the right oen.

I'm just a confident player.  I have been on a great streak recently, my reads have been spot on.  I feel good about my read here.  I think he's more likely scum than not, I felt that way on D1 before the claim, I'm still kicking myself for buying it at the end there.

[Witherweaver]

From the list of alive people:

1. Archetype
2. yuma
3. XerxesPraelor
4. xeiron
6. Twistedarcher
7. Witherweaver
10. A Drowned Kernel
11. AndrewisFTTW
12. Jimmmmm
13. ashersky

Removing Witherweaver, Yuma, Andrewis:

1. Archetype
3. XerxesPraelor
4. xeiron
6. Twistedarcher
10. A Drowned Kernel
12. Jimmmmm
13. ashersky

[Witherweaver]

Other explanations exist.  I mean, look at the game that just ended and how it turned out the least obvious, sensible explanation was actually the right oen.

I'm just a confident player.  I have been on a great streak recently, my reads have been spot on.  I feel good about my read here.  I think he's more likely scum than not, I felt that way on D1 before the claim, I'm still kicking myself for buying it at the end there.

Funny, that's what everyone said about Shraeye's reads and he lead us to certain doom....

[Witherweaver]

Other explanations exist.  I mean, look at the game that just ended and how it turned out the least obvious, sensible explanation was actually the right oen.

I'm just a confident player.  I have been on a great streak recently, my reads have been spot on.  I feel good about my read here.  I think he's more likely scum than not, I felt that way on D1 before the claim, I'm still kicking myself for buying it at the end there.

Funny, that's what everyone said about Shraeye's reads and he lead us to certain doom....

In that game Ash was referencing, not this one.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Not sure what to add here. I've stated my case, I think it's strong and I think we should lynch ash.

Yuma, do you think scum will keep you around for another day? If I'm not lynched today, I can see scum keeping me around another day so I get lynched D3.

[ashersky]

Not sure what to add here. I've stated my case, I think it's strong and I think we should lynch ash.

Yuma, do you think scum will keep you around for another day? If I'm not lynched today, I can see scum keeping me around another day so I get lynched D3.

Laying the groundwork for your defense?

[ashersky]

Other explanations exist.  I mean, look at the game that just ended and how it turned out the least obvious, sensible explanation was actually the right oen.

I'm just a confident player.  I have been on a great streak recently, my reads have been spot on.  I feel good about my read here.  I think he's more likely scum than not, I felt that way on D1 before the claim, I'm still kicking myself for buying it at the end there.

Funny, that's what everyone said about Shraeye's reads and he lead us to certain doom....

Weren't shraeye's reads correct in that game?  It was his actions that failed town.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Not sure what to add here. I've stated my case, I think it's strong and I think we should lynch ash.

Yuma, do you think scum will keep you around for another day? If I'm not lynched today, I can see scum keeping me around another day so I get lynched D3.

Laying the groundwork for your defense?

Huh?

[Witherweaver]

Other explanations exist.  I mean, look at the game that just ended and how it turned out the least obvious, sensible explanation was actually the right oen.

I'm just a confident player.  I have been on a great streak recently, my reads have been spot on.  I feel good about my read here.  I think he's more likely scum than not, I felt that way on D1 before the claim, I'm still kicking myself for buying it at the end there.

Funny, that's what everyone said about Shraeye's reads and he lead us to certain doom....

Weren't shraeye's reads correct in that game?  It was his actions that failed town.

Drove McMc wagon on Day 1, Drove Nik wagon off a cliff on Day 2.

[ashersky]

Not sure what to add here. I've stated my case, I think it's strong and I think we should lynch ash.

Yuma, do you think scum will keep you around for another day? If I'm not lynched today, I can see scum keeping me around another day so I get lynched D3.

Laying the groundwork for your defense?

Huh?

You are already posting reasons for why you will survive another night.  It's because you already know you won't die tonight because you are scum.  It's a scum tell.

[ashersky]

Other explanations exist.  I mean, look at the game that just ended and how it turned out the least obvious, sensible explanation was actually the right oen.

I'm just a confident player.  I have been on a great streak recently, my reads have been spot on.  I feel good about my read here.  I think he's more likely scum than not, I felt that way on D1 before the claim, I'm still kicking myself for buying it at the end there.

Funny, that's what everyone said about Shraeye's reads and he lead us to certain doom....

Weren't shraeye's reads correct in that game?  It was his actions that failed town.

Drove McMc wagon on Day 1, Drove Nik wagon off a cliff on Day 2.

Oh.  I didn't really follow.

Go read shraeye in Adventure Time and Hangman.

[Witherweaver]

Wait, Andrew, why would you be surprised that Yuma lived and not that you lived?

Gaaah I'm so confused in Mafia right now.

[ashersky]

Wait, Andrew, why would you be surprised that Yuma lived and not that you lived?

The first thing he should have said today was "how am I still alive?"  It should have crossed his mind that he was going to be a target.  It (seems like it) didn't.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Not sure what to add here. I've stated my case, I think it's strong and I think we should lynch ash.

Yuma, do you think scum will keep you around for another day? If I'm not lynched today, I can see scum keeping me around another day so I get lynched D3.

Laying the groundwork for your defense?

Huh?

You are already posting reasons for why you will survive another night.  It's because you already know you won't die tonight because you are scum.  It's a scum tell.

Are you going to ever post anything helpful this game? Anything? Or are you going to continue to clutter up this thread with completely useless, pointless, redundant, insufferable posts?

Regardless of your answer I'm done responding to you. I'm done acknowledging anything you have to say. Any post I make will inevitably be answered with "it's a classic scumtell" so really, what is my motivation to post anything at all? The point of this game from town's perspective is to find and lynch scum which is what I'm trying to do despite your unhelpful and empty posts. So from here on out, your posts aren't worth my time. Enjoy the rest of the game.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Wait, Andrew, why would you be surprised that Yuma lived and not that you lived?

Gaaah I'm so confused in Mafia right now.

I'm not surprised I'm alive. Ash can endlessly push for my lynch and the longer I'm alive, the more it seems like I'm scum due to my claim.

[ashersky]

Enjoy the rest of the game.

Not until we lynch you, scum.

[AndrewisFTTW]

A mislynch D3 or D4 would be very good for scum.

[XerxesPraelor]

1. Archetype
6. Twistedarcher
7. Witherweaver
10. A Drowned Kernel
12. Jimmmmm
13. ashersky

Lynch pool for me is this ^