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[yuma]

I think at this point Andrew needs to seriously think about claiming, and we need to know from yuma whether or not he needs/intends to use his power Today.

I am thinking about using my power today if I am not compulsive, if I am obviously I am thinking about who to use it on. We still have time right? What is the rush?

I guess if everyone is dead set of lynching Andrew he should probably claim, but that is more up to him than to us.

[Archetype]

Sudgy, why did you put Andrew to L-1 if you arent comfortable lynching him?

[ashersky]

Pretty sure you aren't compulsive, as I believe town!yuma tells us that upfront.  And I'm still pretty sure you are town!yuma based on your original claim.

Hey look it is Mr don't make assumptions making an assumption!

We had this issue in whatever game Voltaire decided to kill me on Day 1 in which he used that role terribly wrong.  You invented that game, so you know the dangers of hiding a town, compulsive killing role.  (And now I don't remember if he was scum or town, but you get my point.)

If you are a compulsive D1 dayvig, you'd be asking for more input on who to kill and why.  You will make your own decision, but you do know the importance of including the town in the decision, if only to force people to make statements about it for post-flip purposes.

So I think you really, really want to save Andrew for some reason, as you've been on this warpath since discussion about him has started, and I'm wondering if you're going to spill why anytime soon.

Look more assumptions! Stop making assumptions about me! You don't know me! That's my purse!

I don't really want to save Andrew other than I think the lone reason that has been given for lynching him is completely and totally unfounded. I haven't really looked at his posts recently responding to a large wagon, so maybe I will change my mind about him. So I have nothing to spill except that I think lynching someone off a scumslip that could just as easily be a mistake made by town is not pro-town at all when we still have days left and potentially other players who are or will become more obviously scummy.

This didn't PPE for me when I posted.

If I didn't have the town read based on your impossible to fake claim (not considering a scum dayvig), this all sounds like the classic scum defending the townie that will get mislynched so they can say told you so and get towncred the following day kind of stuff.  Although you are sophisticated enough as scum not to do that anyway, I think.

Anyway, I think it is worth you reading Andrew's posts, you know.  Even ignoring the scumslip, you need to see how he reacts to pressure, if you think it's townie, overblown, too calm, whatever.

Would you rather I not assume you are town?  And it's different, as I'm basing my opinion on what's happened this game, as opposed to Andrew's "assumption" which wasn't based on the current game at all, but on some ephemeral past.

[Jimmmmm]

I think at this point Andrew needs to seriously think about claiming, and we need to know from yuma whether or not he needs/intends to use his power Today.

I am thinking about using my power today if I am not compulsive, if I am obviously I am thinking about who to use it on. We still have time right? What is the rush?

I guess if everyone is dead set of lynching Andrew he should probably claim, but that is more up to him than to us.

Well obviously there's no rush. But if Andrew is going to be Today's lynch and we're just waiting for you and him before we proceed, that's just an easy way for the game to stall.

Any thoughts on who you'd like to lynch if not Andrew?

[Jimmmmm]

Would you rather I not assume you are town?

Ooh, I don't like this from ash. He said it a lot to me in Chocolate Factory.

[ashersky]

Would you rather I not assume you are town?

Ooh, I don't like this from ash. He said it a lot to me in Chocolate Factory.

Way to take it out of context, given yuma and I have been arguing about "assumptions" all game.

[ashersky]

I think at this point Andrew needs to seriously think about claiming, and we need to know from yuma whether or not he needs/intends to use his power Today.

I am thinking about using my power today if I am not compulsive, if I am obviously I am thinking about who to use it on. We still have time right? What is the rush?

I guess if everyone is dead set of lynching Andrew he should probably claim, but that is more up to him than to us.

Well obviously there's no rush. But if Andrew is going to be Today's lynch and we're just waiting for you and him before we proceed, that's just an easy way for the game to stall.

Any thoughts on who you'd like to lynch if not Andrew?

Any thoughts of your own to share?

[AndrewisFTTW]

Caught up on the latest pages, and I am left with a scummy feeling of both AndrewisFTTW and A Drowned Kernel. Actually slightly more on ADK, but the interesting part is the chance of them being scum together.
They share some assumptions, and they are defending each other. Something to remember if one flips scum.

As for actually lynching someone, I am not ready to vote for any of them without rereading once more. It will have to be another day, as i am quite busy right now.

Where have I ever defended ADK?

[ashersky]

I think at this point Andrew needs to seriously think about claiming, and we need to know from yuma whether or not he needs/intends to use his power Today.

I am thinking about using my power today if I am not compulsive, if I am obviously I am thinking about who to use it on. We still have time right? What is the rush?

I guess if everyone is dead set of lynching Andrew he should probably claim, but that is more up to him than to us.

You could take out a lurker, if you are compulsive and don't have strong reads.  shraeye, either X, etc.

[Jimmmmm]

I think at this point Andrew needs to seriously think about claiming, and we need to know from yuma whether or not he needs/intends to use his power Today.

I am thinking about using my power today if I am not compulsive, if I am obviously I am thinking about who to use it on. We still have time right? What is the rush?

I guess if everyone is dead set of lynching Andrew he should probably claim, but that is more up to him than to us.

Well obviously there's no rush. But if Andrew is going to be Today's lynch and we're just waiting for you and him before we proceed, that's just an easy way for the game to stall.

Any thoughts on who you'd like to lynch if not Andrew?

Any thoughts of your own to share?

I think yuma's almost definitely Town. I think you're probably Town even though that still reminds me of your threats in Chocolate Factory, so less probably than before but still probably. I think Andrew has a decent chance of flipping scum and think he should probably claim. I'm getting the usual scummy vibe from Arch and I'm not sure what that means these days. And I think I'm going to re-read xeiron.

[ashersky]

I think yuma's almost definitely Town. I think you're probably Town even though that still reminds me of your threats in Chocolate Factory, so less probably than before but still probably. I think Andrew has a decent chance of flipping scum and think he should probably claim. I'm getting the usual scummy vibe from Arch and I'm not sure what that means these days. And I think I'm going to re-read xeiron.

Thanks.

I'm worried about shraeye now.  3 posts, sheeped me on the scumslip, disappeared.  Nothing in the VLA thread.  Odd.

[ashersky]

Just re-read TA.  He started off very odd, not at all like his IC self in ZM17, for example.  He's adjusted back to the norm in the more recent stuff though.  Not sure why.

[yuma]

If I didn't have the town read based on your impossible to fake claim (not considering a scum dayvig), this all sounds like the classic scum defending the townie that will get mislynched so they can say told you so and get towncred the following day kind of stuff.  Although you are sophisticated enough as scum not to do that anyway, I think.

Anyway, I think it is worth you reading Andrew's posts, you know.  Even ignoring the scumslip, you need to see how he reacts to pressure, if you think it's townie, overblown, too calm, whatever.

Would you rather I not assume you are town?  And it's different, as I'm basing my opinion on what's happened this game, as opposed to Andrew's "assumption" which wasn't based on the current game at all, but on some ephemeral past.

Like what I did with voltgloss when I was SK in Wibbely Wobbely and the <b> thing? The thing is that there I reacted the way I would have reacted if I were town... to not believe scumslips. Same here, they aren't enough for me.

And I am happy to see that you are considering Andrew as town, at least in the context of me being scum, which isn't ideal... but at least shows you are thinking things through, which isn't what it looked like you were doing yesterday... maybe you were, but it wasn't showing. It just looked like "LYNCH ANDREW HE IS SCUMMM ROAR!"

I will read Andrew's posts. Again don't we have like a week left in this game? Give people a chance to do their stuff here guys...

And my assumption thing wasn't about me being town. It was you assuming about how I would play in a certain situation. And it is exactly the same, and I agree that you should be doing it, that is my point. Your assumption was based off how I played in the past, some "ephemeral past" as you put it where you have had past experiences with me. Andrews' assumption was about the past as well... the past 13 player games he has played and seen before in his short time of f.ds. See what I am getting at here?

[yuma]

I think at this point Andrew needs to seriously think about claiming, and we need to know from yuma whether or not he needs/intends to use his power Today.

I am thinking about using my power today if I am not compulsive, if I am obviously I am thinking about who to use it on. We still have time right? What is the rush?

I guess if everyone is dead set of lynching Andrew he should probably claim, but that is more up to him than to us.

Well obviously there's no rush. But if Andrew is going to be Today's lynch and we're just waiting for you and him before we proceed, that's just an easy way for the game to stall.

Any thoughts on who you'd like to lynch if not Andrew?

Why are we just waiting on me and Andrew and it really shouldn't be obvious right now 4 days into the game that Andrew is going to be the lynch. It just shouldn't. I don't want the game to stall, but if/when I am going to shoot today I want to have as much time and data points to make that decision, so if the game stalls... I will probably shoot someone who is part of the stalling...

[AndrewisFTTW]

I'm going to hold off on claiming for now. I hope everyone re-reads the last few pages at least and sees that there's no good argument for lynching me.

[ashersky]

I'm going to hold off on claiming for now. I hope everyone re-reads the last few pages at least and sees that there's no good argument for lynching me.

You realize it doesn't take a good argument for a player to be lynched, regardless of alignment, right?

[ashersky]

If I didn't have the town read based on your impossible to fake claim (not considering a scum dayvig), this all sounds like the classic scum defending the townie that will get mislynched so they can say told you so and get towncred the following day kind of stuff.  Although you are sophisticated enough as scum not to do that anyway, I think.

Anyway, I think it is worth you reading Andrew's posts, you know.  Even ignoring the scumslip, you need to see how he reacts to pressure, if you think it's townie, overblown, too calm, whatever.

Would you rather I not assume you are town?  And it's different, as I'm basing my opinion on what's happened this game, as opposed to Andrew's "assumption" which wasn't based on the current game at all, but on some ephemeral past.

Like what I did with voltgloss when I was SK in Wibbely Wobbely and the <b> thing? The thing is that there I reacted the way I would have reacted if I were town... to not believe scumslips. Same here, they aren't enough for me.

And I am happy to see that you are considering Andrew as town, at least in the context of me being scum, which isn't ideal... but at least shows you are thinking things through, which isn't what it looked like you were doing yesterday... maybe you were, but it wasn't showing. It just looked like "LYNCH ANDREW HE IS SCUMMM ROAR!"

I will read Andrew's posts. Again don't we have like a week left in this game? Give people a chance to do their stuff here guys...

And my assumption thing wasn't about me being town. It was you assuming about how I would play in a certain situation. And it is exactly the same, and I agree that you should be doing it, that is my point. Your assumption was based off how I played in the past, some "ephemeral past" as you put it where you have had past experiences with me. Andrews' assumption was about the past as well... the past 13 player games he has played and seen before in his short time of f.ds. See what I am getting at here?

I don't think it's fair to compare Andrew's setup assumption (exact number of scum is a fact that can be proven or disproven at some point) with my opinion of you and your play (subjective determination that is different for everyone and is never going to be a fact, but just opinion).

"I think you are town" is different than "yuma is 100 percent town."  If Andrew said "I think there are probably three scum in this setup based on what I've seen in other setups," that's a closer analogy to my read on you.  But he basically said "there is 100 percent three scum in this setup" which is not something you can "assume" without prior knowledge.

Maybe Andrew meant to say "I think there are probably three scum in this setup based on what I've seen in other setups," but he didn't say that, so it's his own fault for communicating badly.  He's had pages and pages to clarify his statement, but he hasn't.  I want you to see that.  Read all of his posts.  He never clarifies or changes his stance.  He said at the very beginning "THERE ARE THREE SCUM" and has not waivered, clarified, adjusted, or qualified his statement.

Maybe he feels like qualifying his statement now would look like he's admitting to the slip.  Dunno.  I just know his "defense" to this the entire time has been to call the case "ridiculous" and not actually answer anything.  Sound familiar?  (Hint: me in Super Mario)

[yuma]

I don't think it's fair to compare Andrew's setup assumption (exact number of scum is a fact that can be proven or disproven at some point) with my opinion of you and your play (subjective determination that is different for everyone and is never going to be a fact, but just opinion).

"I think you are town" is different than "yuma is 100 percent town."  If Andrew said "I think there are probably three scum in this setup based on what I've seen in other setups," that's a closer analogy to my read on you.  But he basically said "there is 100 percent three scum in this setup" which is not something you can "assume" without prior knowledge.

Maybe Andrew meant to say "I think there are probably three scum in this setup based on what I've seen in other setups," but he didn't say that, so it's his own fault for communicating badly. 

Well then... we have it. I am not willing to lynch Andrew for communicating badly. This is a communication game. But as I learned in my communication classes it is a two way street. The speaker and the hearer. Both parties are responsible. The one for being clear (obviously didn't happen) the other for interpreting, which I think I am doing correctly and I think you are not. Obviously we won't know until we lynch him, but at this point I am not willing to do that based off a single instance of something that could very easily be a communication failure.

[ashersky]

I don't think it's fair to compare Andrew's setup assumption (exact number of scum is a fact that can be proven or disproven at some point) with my opinion of you and your play (subjective determination that is different for everyone and is never going to be a fact, but just opinion).

"I think you are town" is different than "yuma is 100 percent town."  If Andrew said "I think there are probably three scum in this setup based on what I've seen in other setups," that's a closer analogy to my read on you.  But he basically said "there is 100 percent three scum in this setup" which is not something you can "assume" without prior knowledge.

Maybe Andrew meant to say "I think there are probably three scum in this setup based on what I've seen in other setups," but he didn't say that, so it's his own fault for communicating badly. 

Well then... we have it. I am not willing to lynch Andrew for communicating badly. This is a communication game. But as I learned in my communication classes it is a two way street. The speaker and the hearer. Both parties are responsible. The one for being clear (obviously didn't happen) the other for interpreting, which I think I am doing correctly and I think you are not. Obviously we won't know until we lynch him, but at this point I am not willing to do that based off a single instance of something that could very easily be a communication failure.

I'm not disputing this point of yours, which is valid.  If it is a communication failure, and only that, he doesn't "deserve" to be lynched for it.  But...

If this is a misunderstanding, why has Andrew refused to clarify?  I'm willing to lynch him based on my understanding as the hearer, because I think my understanding is correct at this point.  He has done nothing to try and change my understanding, he's just calling my understanding ridiculous without actually addressing it.

I think there are generally two ways scum react to cases made on them.  One is to make very long, detailed posts refuting the case point by point.  Town does this too.  The other is to react loudly with incredulity.  I've famously done this with great success in past games (Mario) and unsuccessfully (Choc Factory).  Town does not do this very often, although I and others have on occasion.

I think Andrew's been reacting loudly with incredulity, but without any response at all to the actual case.  He has responded directly to others' cases, but not to the actual scumsilp.

[ashersky]

I'm going to hold off on claiming for now. I hope everyone re-reads the last few pages at least and sees that there's no good argument for lynching me.

Like this.  What is this?  "So...lots of folks voting me, but I'm not going to say anything, I just hope you all re-read and stop voting."  What?

[ashersky]

Scumslip? Really? I thought in big games there are three and in small games there are two. Is this incorrect?

Here's Andrew's first post following my vote.  The wording here is odd -- especially when compared to his later posts that include a lot more ATE.

He starts with two one word questions, which are meant to be disarming and show some confusion.  The "is this incorrect" phrasing is very strange as well.  Usually you'd see a ", right?" added to the line before, or "Am I wrong?" I think.  The "incorrect" instead of "wrong" feels really off here.

[ashersky]

It is a retractment, earlier I was making an assumption and I realized that it was unfounded. My statement about their "probably" being a third party is based mostly on flavor and the fact that RMM games are supposed to be chaotic, so again, maybe I'm making assumptions that I shouldn't be.

As a comparison, look at ADK after I had also called him out for a scum/thirdparty slip.  An actual explanation for his assumption, which had included "probably" in it.

[sudgy]

sudgy- switched from my wagon to Andrew's pretty easily, seems like he knew they were both mislynches and was waiting to see which one was going to be easier to push.

I think you are somewhat scummy, but not as much as Andrew.  Also, I knew more work would get done if I switched to Andrew.

Sudgy, why did you put Andrew to L-1 if you arent comfortable lynching him?

I am comfortable lynching him, but not right away.

[yuma]

I'm not disputing this point of yours, which is valid.  If it is a communication failure, and only that, he doesn't "deserve" to be lynched for it.  But...

No. That is not how you have felt. Before you just wanted to lynch him from the scumslip... going as so far as to suggest me dayvigging him based solely off the scumslip alone. Nothing doing with the reactions. In fact you only recently started actually analyzing the reaction (first post I see is #267 where you say you have pointed out his "other scummy statements" but I didn't see you point out scumminess. I just saw you point out how he was wrong, and having a different opinion of you isn't scummy. All of the posts before that are either just saying he is scum or arguing with him about why you are right... not analyzing what he is saying as scummy or townie.

This really makes me wonder ash... You are taking a different approach now? Why? Why isn't your original reason good enough now despite you using it before? Is it because you are trying to adapt your case to what you think I would want the case to be?

If this is a misunderstanding, why has Andrew refused to clarify?  I'm willing to lynch him based on my understanding as the hearer, because I think my understanding is correct at this point.  He has done nothing to try and change my understanding, he's just calling my understanding ridiculous without actually addressing it.

Because the way you approached it man!!!! Look at what you did. You didn't say, "I think Andrew said something scummy... Andrew why did you say that, what made you say what you did?"

No instead you reacted extremely hostile and aggressively. Calling him out for a scumslip, immediately voting, automatically assuming the worst and not giving him a chance to explain himself. Sure, if Andrew is a completely rational human being maybe he can stay calm in the face of this ridiculous--from his point of view--accusation and try and explain it. He did very well to me when I asked him some questions in a rational manner w/o making up my mind before he made it. So yeah, I don't expect him to fully address it to you because you jumped all over him and people don't react ideally when you do that.
[/quote]

I think there are generally two ways scum react to cases made on them.  One is to make very long, detailed posts refuting the case point by point.  Town does this too.  The other is to react loudly with incredulity.  I've famously done this with great success in past games (Mario) and unsuccessfully (Choc Factory).  Town does not do this very often, although I and others have on occasion.

I think Andrew's been reacting loudly with incredulity, but without any response at all to the actual case.  He has responded directly to others' cases, but not to the actual scumsilp.

And why can't town react with pure incredulity I ask? It isn't like we haven't seen this before.

Ok, I am reading Andrew's posts:

- 208 - disbelief and confusion, given the context understandable
- 221 - joke again, disbelief
- 224 - frustration
- 226 - frustration again
- 230 - looks like a post that perfectly explains the situation, despite a slightly (and understandable hostile tone). He uses the word assume here. For me that corresponds to "I thought" or "probably" or whatever
- 232 - asking for clarification
- 239 - answering one of my questions that I put forward w/o previous bias
- 258 - critiquing some of your failed logic
- 259 - says we should stop talking about "theory and power of assumptions" not about whether or not he is scum or the scum slip
- 260 - asks for shraeye to clarify
- 268 - another clarification post saying "that I have seen"
- 296 - agrees with a post I made
- 297 - second guesses himself
- 312 - analyzes the votes on him
- 319 - responding to faust's case on him, which I don't get much out of
- 320 - reacting to xerxes
- 322 - responding to sudgy's question
- 325 - comparing this game to past ones for sudgy
- 328 - L1 talk saying the day should keep going, I agree fully here
- 330 - mentions how everyone is voting him for how he reacted (incredulous and in disbelief, the exact emotions I would be feeling if I were in his shoes. Actually those are the emotions I am feeling right now)
- 334 - more about the above
 - 336 - analyzes Xerxes' vote
- 338 asks sudgy a question
- 340 - really key phrase here: "If I was posting 100% how you guys expect a townie to post (whatever that is), I wouldn't really be in this position. I take the blame for some of this..."
- 357 - about not defending ADK
- 364 - not claiming, the right move I think

So yeah, I dont' think Andrew is town based off his reactions. I don't see any merit in the scumslip (or at the least very, very little). I won't be votign for him nor will I be dayvigging him unless something happens. I am not convinced he is town, but I do not believe him to be the correct lynch today.

[yuma]

Scumslip? Really? I thought in big games there are three and in small games there are two. Is this incorrect?

Here's Andrew's first post following my vote.  The wording here is odd -- especially when compared to his later posts that include a lot more ATE.

He starts with two one word questions, which are meant to be disarming and show some confusion.  The "is this incorrect" phrasing is very strange as well.  Usually you'd see a ", right?" added to the line before, or "Am I wrong?" I think.  The "incorrect" instead of "wrong" feels really off here.

UGH! Strike 1!