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[A Drowned Kernel]

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This game's just started and I already need to do a reread to sort things out. Where's everybody else? I can't think about mafia any more today, I'll get back to this tomorrow.

[Archetype]

Initially I didn't agree with ash, since there really aren't scumslips, so I went back to the original post.

I doubt mail-mi made Mordeth a flavor character. But anyway, there's only three scum and sometimes they have to take huge risks. It's a null read for me right now but the argument is definitely WIFOM, and scum wants us to argue about things that don't have an obvious answer.

Immediately after...

There's only three scum but there's also possibly (probably) at least one third party, i.e. a serial killer, which both town and scum have to worry about.

This reads to me as scum!ADK seeing town!Andrew say that there are 3 scum, assume that this is included in the OP and agrees with him that "there's only three scum". I think that that in itself is more likely to be a scumslip than what Andrew said. However, I think Andrew's response to the pressure is a bit scummy. I still find xeiron's behavior  scummier than both of them, so I'll leave my vote there. But scum points to ADK . I agree that ash is being completely ridiculous with the Andrew thing. I don't think he'd push this crazily as scum, so I lean Town.

[ashersky]

I doubt mail-mi made Mordeth a flavor character. But anyway, there's only three scum and sometimes they have to take huge risks. It's a null read for me right now but the argument is definitely WIFOM, and scum wants us to argue about things that don't have an obvious answer.

Here is the quote in question, because I think we're getting away from the point.

That is not an assumption.  That is not a guess.  That is not an idea, or a hope, or a wish, or a maybe.  That is a statement of fact.  Whether it actually is a fact or not is unknown to me, but he definitely wrote it as such.

All of you Andrew apologists are saying "oh, but it's fair for town to make an assumption of three scum for this size game so it isn't an alignment-tell."  Except he didn't assume anything.  Look at that statement and tell me you see any doubt, inconsistency, or unawareness in it.  Read those words out loud.  Listen to how they feel.

The man KNOWS how many scum are in the game.  That's what that statement forces you to understand.  The power of words are real.  They are not wind, as Eevee would say.

[ashersky]

Initially I didn't agree with ash, since there really aren't scumslips.

False.  There have been scumslips, both crazily overblown and crazily overlooked.

There's Frisk's famous original, of course.  But I've made two, at least, in my scum play on f.ds.  I think it was chocolate factory where I did the <b>bolding</b> error and was able to play it off before I got called out.  In Mean Girls I scumslipped on purpose and no one picked up on it.

[ashersky]

There's only three scum but there's also possibly (probably) at least one third party, i.e. a serial killer, which both town and scum have to worry about.

This reads to me as scum!ADK seeing town!Andrew say that there are 3 scum, assume that this is included in the OP and agrees with him that "there's only three scum". I think that that in itself is more likely to be a scumslip than what Andrew said. However, I think Andrew's response to the pressure is a bit scummy. I still find xeiron's behavior  scummier than both of them, so I'll leave my vote there. But scum points to ADK . I agree that ash is being completely ridiculous with the Andrew thing. I don't think he'd push this crazily as scum, so I lean Town.

Archetype makes a good point here about ADK's reaction to the statement.

[ashersky]

Ash go take a walk. You are driving me nuts.

How about you check your tone there, buddy.  I'm asking you to defend yourself and your defense of Andrew.  Instead of doing so, you play this card?

[yuma]

Ash go take a walk. You are driving me nuts.

How about you check your tone there, buddy.  I'm asking you to defend yourself and your defense of Andrew.  Instead of doing so, you play this card?

Playing a card?

I don't play cards ash. I have emotions and I express my emotions. You are driving me nuts! How about you check your tone as well? Why do you think you are driving me nuts?

But I took my own advice and took a walk (figuratively speaking that is... I watched a Buffy episode instead).

I will say this one more time. I am not defending Andrew. At least not in the sense that you are saying that I am. I don't think he is town, I don't think he is scum. Right now he is null. There isn't enough data for me to have an opinion on him because I do not believe the slip that you are soooooooooo adamant about is enough to form any sort of a conclusion on. If I had to lean a certain way it would probably be toward town, but that is based more off how people are reacting to this than anything he has done. I am not going to go back and pull up a defense for him based off previous quotes because 1. there isn't enough to do that with and 2. I don't even know if I think he is town.

All I am saying is that this so called "slip" is overblown. Just like all the other "slips" that you have tried to get people lynched for--sometimes successfully to town's detriment.

Look, as long as I am around Andrew isn't getting lynched for this. He just isn't. If he does something else--I am keeping an open mind about all of it--then I will reconsider it just like I will with everything else that goes on for the rest of the day.

[yuma]

Initially I didn't agree with ash, since there really aren't scumslips.

False.  There have been scumslips, both crazily overblown and crazily overlooked.

There's Frisk's famous original, of course.  But I've made two, at least, in my scum play on f.ds.  I think it was chocolate factory where I did the <b>bolding</b> error and was able to play it off before I got called out.  In Mean Girls I scumslipped on purpose and no one picked up on it.

or the <b>Voltgloss</b> slip that turned out to not be a slip or the half dozen times that someone said there is X amount of scum and they just turned out to be town assuming

Scumslips aren't enough for me, they will never be enough for me. I need more to lynch someone because our track record for lynching based off these "scumslips" is awful, boarderline horrible. You know this and yet you continually push for it. Why?

[ashersky]

I went to the gym, ironically, right after your take a walk comment.

Your answer just now was all I was after.

As for driving you nuts, what's new?

[ashersky]

Scumslips aren't enough for me, they will never be enough for me. I need more to lynch someone because our track record for lynching based off these "scumslips" is awful, boarderline horrible. You know this and yet you continually push for it. Why?

I've been scum six times in regular games.  I've scumslipped in 2 of them.  That's a 1/3 chance in catching scum on a scumslip, and I think it's fair to say I'm a pretty strong scum player.

I'd like to see actual stats on when we have lynched town players for "scumslips" and when we've let scum players gets away with them.  I'd think they'd be surprising.

[yuma]

I doubt mail-mi made Mordeth a flavor character. But anyway, there's only three scum and sometimes they have to take huge risks. It's a null read for me right now but the argument is definitely WIFOM, and scum wants us to argue about things that don't have an obvious answer.

Here is the quote in question, because I think we're getting away from the point.

That is not an assumption.  That is not a guess.  That is not an idea, or a hope, or a wish, or a maybe.  That is a statement of fact.  Whether it actually is a fact or not is unknown to me, but he definitely wrote it as such.

All of you Andrew apologists are saying "oh, but it's fair for town to make an assumption of three scum for this size game so it isn't an alignment-tell."  Except he didn't assume anything.  Look at that statement and tell me you see any doubt, inconsistency, or unawareness in it.  Read those words out loud.  Listen to how they feel.

The man KNOWS how many scum are in the game.  That's what that statement forces you to understand.  The power of words are real.  They are not wind, as Eevee would say.

But you are making an assumption that he is stating it as a fact that he knows because of insider information. I don't necessarily think that he is. He phrases it in a factual way, yes. But there is the narrative that makes more sense to me that he is town (or maybe even mafia) who thinks that he knows there is 3 mafia because this is a 13 player game based off the information that he had coming into it based of previous experiences with 13 player games.

[yuma]

Scumslips aren't enough for me, they will never be enough for me. I need more to lynch someone because our track record for lynching based off these "scumslips" is awful, boarderline horrible. You know this and yet you continually push for it. Why?

I've been scum six times in regular games.  I've scumslipped in 2 of them.  That's a 1/3 chance in catching scum on a scumslip, and I think it's fair to say I'm a pretty strong scum player.

I'd like to see actual stats on when we have lynched town players for "scumslips" and when we've let scum players gets away with them.  I'd think they'd be surprising.

One was intentional... the other I don't consider a scumslip the <b> one. Because both you and voltgloss frequent speccies often enough that the fact that you made that one could have as easily of happened as town. Goodness I made the opposite slip once in a speccy typing it out the wrong way!?!?! What does that say about me? Or how many times have I in speccies types out scum instead of town!?!?! Scumslips are a fabrication. And again, I ask you how many times have we successfully lynched mafia based off one of this inane slips? I can't think of one. How many times have we incorrectly lynched, or would have incorrectly lynched if sanity had not prevailed. I can think of a handful if not more.

[ashersky]

I doubt mail-mi made Mordeth a flavor character. But anyway, there's only three scum and sometimes they have to take huge risks. It's a null read for me right now but the argument is definitely WIFOM, and scum wants us to argue about things that don't have an obvious answer.

Here is the quote in question, because I think we're getting away from the point.

That is not an assumption.  That is not a guess.  That is not an idea, or a hope, or a wish, or a maybe.  That is a statement of fact.  Whether it actually is a fact or not is unknown to me, but he definitely wrote it as such.

All of you Andrew apologists are saying "oh, but it's fair for town to make an assumption of three scum for this size game so it isn't an alignment-tell."  Except he didn't assume anything.  Look at that statement and tell me you see any doubt, inconsistency, or unawareness in it.  Read those words out loud.  Listen to how they feel.

The man KNOWS how many scum are in the game.  That's what that statement forces you to understand.  The power of words are real.  They are not wind, as Eevee would say.

But you are making an assumption that he is stating it as a fact that he knows because of insider information. I don't necessarily think that he is. He phrases it in a factual way, yes. But there is the narrative that makes more sense to me that he is town (or maybe even mafia) who thinks that he knows there is 3 mafia because this is a 13 player game based off the information that he had coming into it based of previous experiences with 13 player games.

Maybe.  But as you like to say, we can only go on the data we have.  I have words typed on a screen by a player called Andrew.  The words he consciously typed tell us he knows (or thinks he knows, as you say) there are exactly 3 scum in this game.

Town who assumed incorrectly?  Maybe, but if he's assuming as town, wouldn't he take into consideration the possibility of the third party, as the OP mentions?  Or is he scum who knows there's three of them, but he's forgetting the possible 3rd party?  Or maybe as a newbie he doesn't think third party means scum?

If we just assume everyone's assuming stuff, we'll never catch anyone doing anything.  I can assume anything away.  Oh, he did X scummy thing, but I think he did it based on an assumption, so that's null.

At some point you need to take a stand, believe, opine.

[ashersky]

Scumslips aren't enough for me, they will never be enough for me. I need more to lynch someone because our track record for lynching based off these "scumslips" is awful, boarderline horrible. You know this and yet you continually push for it. Why?

I've been scum six times in regular games.  I've scumslipped in 2 of them.  That's a 1/3 chance in catching scum on a scumslip, and I think it's fair to say I'm a pretty strong scum player.

I'd like to see actual stats on when we have lynched town players for "scumslips" and when we've let scum players gets away with them.  I'd think they'd be surprising.

One was intentional... the other I don't consider a scumslip the <b> one. Because both you and voltgloss frequent speccies often enough that the fact that you made that one could have as easily of happened as town. Goodness I made the opposite slip once in a speccy typing it out the wrong way!?!?! What does that say about me? Or how many times have I in speccies types out scum instead of town!?!?! Scumslips are a fabrication. And again, I ask you how many times have we successfully lynched mafia based off one of this inane slips? I can't think of one. How many times have we incorrectly lynched, or would have incorrectly lynched if sanity had not prevailed. I can think of a handful if not more.

Frisk was lynched for his, was he not?

[yuma]

At some point you need to take a stand, believe, opine.

How about later in the day when we have more data points to compare to and more people to see if he is scummy. Look I am not saying what he did points him as a shining beacon of townieness. I just refuse to look at one isolated instance and get up on top of my chair and shout "SCUM!!!!!!" at the top of my lungs. If Andrew is scum he will do other scummy things. Trust me (and the other townies) to see them and pinpoint them out. My reads have been bad, but aren't necessarily horrible. If Andrew is town, hopefully he won't do scummy things and we can lynch someone else.

For the mean time. We aren't going to lynch Andrew immediately. I don't want to say this conversation is over because I am not going to say who can control a conversation, but I am not really interested in taking up more space than we already have hashing this out when we both obviously already know each other's positions and neither of us are likely to change our mind.

[ashersky]

We've had this argument/discussion before, and just fall on opposite sides of it.

I absolutely believe in the existence of scumslips.  This is like mafia RSP, but it's there.  All scum, every single scum player in every single game, will at some point make a post that will allow town to catch them.  No one is perfect.  My definition of a scumslip is "a statement, made by scum, that inadvertently allows town to catch them."

I guess by that definition, you can argue my purposeful scumslip doesn't count.  But look at Super Mario -- the speccy picked up on plenty that told them I was scum.  Hell, so did Eevee and mcmc.  I argued my way out of it.  You could call the mistakes in my fake RB claim scumslips, because the people I claimed to have blocked gave me away as scum with too much information.

You (and others) refuse to believe or even consider that scumslips exist.  They aren't always egregious, but I believe they absolutely exist.

[yuma]

Frisk was lynched for his, was he not?

He was lynched, but not due to his slip. He was lynched for other reasons.

[ashersky]

At some point you need to take a stand, believe, opine.

How about later in the day when we have more data points to compare to and more people to see if he is scummy. Look I am not saying what he did points him as a shining beacon of townieness. I just refuse to look at one isolated instance and get up on top of my chair and shout "SCUM!!!!!!" at the top of my lungs. If Andrew is scum he will do other scummy things. Trust me (and the other townies) to see them and pinpoint them out. My reads have been bad, but aren't necessarily horrible. If Andrew is town, hopefully he won't do scummy things and we can lynch someone else.

For the mean time. We aren't going to lynch Andrew immediately. I don't want to say this conversation is over because I am not going to say who can control a conversation, but I am not really interested in taking up more space than we already have hashing this out when we both obviously already know each other's positions and neither of us are likely to change our mind.

That's fine.  At least this discussion has allowed for data points to be created.  A lot has come from ADK's reactions, as well as Andrew's.

You have people talking sides on this, which may or may not help figure out alignments in the future.

What else would you like to talk about?

[yuma]

You (and others) refuse to believe or even consider that scumslips exist.  They aren't always egregious, but I believe they absolutely exist.

I keep getting sucked in. I believe that scumslips exist. I just don't believe that they occur with a greater frequency than town making natural, human mistakes in regard to posting or setup speculation. We have seen too many townies make "scumslips" for them to be universally called "scumslips." They are mistakes made by humans because like you said, we aren't perfect.

[yuma]

What else would you like to talk about?

Right now I am interested in people who didn't take a side, but just sat back and watched....

But that will have to wait, bedtime for me.

[Archetype]

I think that, given Andrews relative newbiness, it's likely for him, as Town, to assume there is 3 Mafia. That's what I believed to be the most likely thing purely based on the precedent set by the majority of past RMM games.

[AndrewisFTTW]

I doubt mail-mi made Mordeth a flavor character. But anyway, there's only three scum and sometimes they have to take huge risks. It's a null read for me right now but the argument is definitely WIFOM, and scum wants us to argue about things that don't have an obvious answer.

Here is the quote in question, because I think we're getting away from the point.

That is not an assumption.  That is not a guess.  That is not an idea, or a hope, or a wish, or a maybe.  That is a statement of fact.  Whether it actually is a fact or not is unknown to me, but he definitely wrote it as such.

All of you Andrew apologists are saying "oh, but it's fair for town to make an assumption of three scum for this size game so it isn't an alignment-tell."  Except he didn't assume anything.  Look at that statement and tell me you see any doubt, inconsistency, or unawareness in it.  Read those words out loud.  Listen to how they feel.

The man KNOWS how many scum are in the game.  That's what that statement forces you to understand.  The power of words are real.  They are not wind, as Eevee would say.

But you are making an assumption that he is stating it as a fact that he knows because of insider information. I don't necessarily think that he is. He phrases it in a factual way, yes. But there is the narrative that makes more sense to me that he is town (or maybe even mafia) who thinks that he knows there is 3 mafia because this is a 13 player game based off the information that he had coming into it based of previous experiences with 13 player games.

^yes.

Is there really anything else I or yuma or anyone can say about this? Ash has been tunneling me using the same "scumslip" argument for what seems like a few pages now. I don't see this going anywhere. If anyone wants me to clarify anything I'd be more than happy to accommodate. But other than that, I feel like I and others have explained this situation clearly enough.

As far as third parties go, I wasn't really thinking about it. I'm mostly going on feel, re-reading and seeing what sticks out to me rather than spending a lot of time analyzing setups. I've only played a couple games and in one of them I was only alive for a day but that strategy has seemed to work out for me so far. I also had D1 wagons on me in both games if I remember correctly. So I guess people interpret the way I play this game as scummy? Well anyway I'll read up on setups and roles and such some more tomorrow.

[AndrewisFTTW]

I also had D1 wagons on me in both games if I remember correctly.

On second thought, I don't think I'm remembering correctly.

[sudgy]

So, catching up.

I think ashersky is jumping on newbies making a dumb mistake to push town into mislynches. The "fastest win ever thing" also seems calculated to appeal to people's egos; people like the idea of town winning quickly. It's enough for me to

Vote: ash

I agree with whoever it was that said this was a scummy post.  Vote: A Drowned Kernel

Vote: yuma

this was never explained

That was RVS, trying to get discussion going.  It didn't work.

Oh and please quote the entire conversation. Going back and trying to find the rest of it or trying to make sense of half of a conversation is really annoying.

You can click on the thing that says "Quote from:..." and it takes you to the post.


Now, my take on the whole thing.  Ash, I disagree with you.  Ash, you're doing great.  We've already got some rock-hard interactions here now.  I think it has been going on a little bit long, but oh well.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Oh and please quote the entire conversation. Going back and trying to find the rest of it or trying to make sense of half of a conversation is really annoying.

You can click on the thing that says "Quote from:..." and it takes you to the post.

Xeiron replaced text with ellipses thus cutting out important information in the beginning of the conversation. I was saying not to do that but rather to quote the entire thing so we don't have to sift through a bunch of posts to try and find the original posts.