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[sudgy]

The f.ds hangout is already the Outpost...

[KingZog3]

The f.ds hangout is already the Outpost...

Wow I didn't know this... actually?

[qmech]

The f.ds hangout is already the Outpost...

Wow I didn't know this... actually?

Really!

Council Room etc. are normally quicker though.

[KingZog3]

The f.ds hangout is already the Outpost...

Wow I didn't know this... actually?

Really!

Council Room etc. are normally quicker though.

I'm sure they are, but still. I had no idea this was going on.

[blueblimp]

If you buy a province, and your opponent buys a Platinum and lets you stay in the VP lead, then you're now in a position to 3-pile and win yourself. Three-piling works both ways.

Right, but there's also an interesting subtlety here in that your opponent may have a deck that can threaten a 3-pile while you don't: maybe your opponent has more +buy, or maybe more tools to burst a high $ count (for example, Mining Village). In this case, you will be forced to green earlier than your opponent. This most often happens when a treasure strategy plays against an engine strategy. The treasure strategy will begin greening earlier but at a slower rate and with less endgame control, while the engine strategy will begin greening later but at a faster rate and with more endgame control.

[Destierro]

Alright, I've been reading through this thread, and I think that I've found a solution. It's a simple rule change that should stop this three pile ending madness.

The game only ends when all Victory card piles are empty.

One of Count's gripes is that the person with the better deck could lose to the unfair technique of buying out low piles and an estate, even if the other players deck is better! This way, it will be clear who has the better deck, as it will be the person with more than 1/2 of the vp. Sure the games might be longer, but at least this way you will know for certain who has the better deck. No more vagrant snipes, just plain engine building without any consequences for building too much. This of course wouldn't work with VP chips, so those should just be removed.

[Count Grishnakh]

Alright, I've been reading through this thread, and I think that I've found a solution. It's a simple rule change that should stop this three pile ending madness.

The game only ends when all Victory card piles are empty.

One of Count's gripes is that the person with the better deck could lose to the unfair technique of buying out low piles and an estate, even if the other players deck is better! This way, it will be clear who has the better deck, as it will be the person with more than 1/2 of the vp. Sure the games might be longer, but at least this way you will know for certain who has the better deck. No more vagrant snipes, just plain engine building without any consequences for building too much. This of course wouldn't work with VP chips, so those should just be removed.

What?!? You can't be serious. This would be too extreme in the opposite direction, some games would take well over an hour with this rule.

I like the rule that if you intentionally three pile through buying the other players get one last grab at VP's also. I think that would add even more subtlety and it would be a check and balance against what is, IMO a slightly overpowered tactic.

[A Drowned Kernel]

Dominion isn't (and shouldn't) be about who has the "better deck", since the careful balance between building up your deck and grabbing points is a huge strategic aspect of the game. There are already games where players duke it out with pre-built decks to determine which one is better, i.e. Magic the Gathering. Having to make the decision between build-up and greening is what makes Dominion an interesting and unique game, even (in my experience) among deckbuilders, since a lot of them don't seem to incorporate the slow-down effect that greening has in Dominion. If your opponent pulls a three-pile ending on you, then you played poorly (and/or had some bad luck).

Destierro's solution would turn every game into an incredible slog, and in my opinion would completely break the game.

[flies]

Right, so (say) I buy a province, my opponent buys a platinum, he now has a better deck

Thus the only way this "strategy" of buying VP cards for insurance works is to drain the deck while you're ahead

But he could buy a platinum while you spent your $9 on a province... Now all you can do is hope and pray you can drain those last few cards before he plays the platinum and ties you, or worse!!

so two problems there:
1. The only way to defend against this strategy is to resort to the strategy yourself
2. It's not always a perfect counter. Because if he buys a province and ties it up, then you
have to buy another VP card, which may prevent you from three piling on your turn. Then he buys a colony because he bought a platinum when you spent your 9$ on that first province

What I'm trying to say is that this aspect of the game boils down to a crapshoot, and you can only manage this aspect of the strategy if you have a comfortable lead

when the game is close at all (and games should usually be close at high-level) the "science" of it all breaks down and it's really just a crap shoot on who manages to be the last person to get that extra VP while draining the last deck

The way you're phrasing your hypothetical makes it hard to interpret.  If two players of equal skill make similar decisions in any game involving chance, then the winner is necessarily decided by luck.  This is self-evident and suggests nothing about the game beyond the involvement of luck.

In Dominion, if your opponent is in a position where she can force you to buy a province to avoid an immediate loss, respond with a platinum buy, and then in her following turn still win on a three pile, that player already has the stronger position when you're considering that province buy, and it's very hard to understand why you think it's problematic for a player who's ahead to have a lot of control over the game.  Boxing an opponent in like this is simply strong play, and you have to watch out for it and prepare before you find yourself making this decision; if that's the decision you have to make, then the opportunity to avoid losing has already passed.  Sometimes you just get bad draws and there's nothing you can do.  Dominion can be like that, but skill allows you to overcome your bad luck -- and press your good luck, as for instance by threatening piles while ahead.

It should be obvious that a skilled player will maneuver her opponent into this position more easily than a poor player, in which case the loss was due to skill.  If the two players are equally skilled and make similar decisions, then of course the outcome is due to luck because in this hypothetical there is no other possibility.  If the two players are equally skilled but they make different decisions with one player choosing the path that offers more opportunities for piling out, then that player won by making the correct choices, not by luck.

So where is the problem? 

[2.71828.....]

Dominion isn't (and shouldn't) be about who has the "better deck", since the careful balance between building up your deck and grabbing points is a huge strategic aspect of the game. There are already games where players duke it out with pre-built decks to determine which one is better, i.e. Magic the Gathering. Having to make the decision between build-up and greening is what makes Dominion an interesting and unique game, even (in my experience) among deckbuilders, since a lot of them don't seem to incorporate the slow-down effect that greening has in Dominion. If your opponent pulls a three-pile ending on you, then you played poorly (and/or had some bad luck).

Destierro's solution would turn every game into an incredible slog, and in my opinion would completely break the game.

I hate to explain jokes, but I think that is the point.....

[Teproc]

Dominion isn't (and shouldn't) be about who has the "better deck"

This. So much. This is what the game is about in many ways, knowing when to stop building and start making your deck bad by scoring. I have a friend who consistently overbuilds and then says "well, you won, but I had the better deck, so I'm gonna count this as a moral win". He's partially joking, but I think this is a problem many people have.

[michaeljb]

The f.ds hangout is already the Outpost...

Wow I didn't know this... actually?

Really!

Council Room etc. are normally quicker though.

I'm sure they are, but still. I had no idea this was going on.

I just stickied that thread to raise awareness.

[Polk5440]

Anyway, thanks for the criticism everyone. It's been a learning experience for me. One thing I love about Dominion as a game is it often punishes me for my foolish, fanciful and grandiose plans, forcing me to be very strict and level-headed in my thinking and expectations. I think you all helped me come to my senses. 

This marks the end of the thread, right? 

[A Drowned Kernel]

I hate to explain jokes, but I think that is the point.....

I might be bad at internet sarcasm but I'm looking at Desterrio's post and I honestly can't tell if he's serious or not. If it was meant as joke then I guess I've got egg on my face.

[GendoIkari]

Can anyone tell me why this has gone 9 pages?

Because your posts per page setting is far too low.

Right, I fixed it and there are only 5 now (not including this), this is acceptable.

Woah, I never knew about this! Awesome; this will make life easier.

[Kirian]

Can anyone tell me why this has gone 9 pages?

Because your posts per page setting is far too low.

Right, I fixed it and there are only 5 now (not including this), this is acceptable.

Woah, I never knew about this! Awesome; this will make life easier.

Forum member finds One Weird Tip to make forum reading easier.

[AJD]

Now I'm threeeeeeeee.... threeee pilin'

Sung to the tune of Tom Petty's Free Falling

She's a good girl, loves Dominion,
She loves Seaside and Prosperity too,
She's a good girl, crazy about engines,
Buys Warehouse and Grand Market too,

She's got a long plan, building up her engine,
There's a pile or two running short of cards,
And I'm a bad boy, who bought just one Duchy,
I'm a bad boy, for breaking her heart,

'Cause I'm three… three pilin'.

[Count Grishnakh]

Man that three-piling song that shark bait and that AJD made is hilarious.. I tip my hat to you sir

if we every face eachother in Dominion and you want to throw me off my game you know what song to sing

[DStu]

Agreed

[AJD]

Thank you!

[shark_bait]

I thought about doing what AJD did but was too lazy.  Just the chorus was enough for me 

[Count Grishnakh]

EPILOGUE TO THREAD...

In which the eccentric Count Grishnakh goes to "the dark side" and three-piles games early.

I just three-piled a treasure map game very early. It felt good in a naughty kind of way.

Everyone lead with the obvious choice of iron works and forager.

Everyone started going to town on the treasure map pile, and it wasn't long before it was empty.

People were also picking up crossroads with their extra 2$

I got 4 treasure maps and P2 matches two first. She spends her 4 golds on a bank (I thought, muahahah.. She has bigs dreams, that one.)

I match treasure maps and go for a province.

P1 grabs a cultist hoping too thwart our treasure hunt. Too little too late.

The cultist buy prompted P2 to frantically buy foragers. I contributed to the draining of this pile.

I continued to drain crossroads piles as well.

I match up my second pair of treasure maps, I now have two provinces, they have none.

P2, seeing that the game had suddenly reached a fragile state, grabs a province.

Now there is one crossroad left, and the other players see what's coming.

The cultist guy uses his iron works and 3$ to grab two estates. I laughed an evil laugh.

I buy the last crossroads

Game over. "gg" I said.

They did not reciprocate my cordial gesture.

[shark_bait]

Game over. "gg" I said.

They did not reciprocate my cordial gesture.

Perhaps since you're new here you haven't read this yet.

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9541.0

[eHalcyon]

Everyone went for Treasure Map?  Was the rest of the board really weak?

[Voltaire]

Everyone went for Treasure Map?  Was the rest of the board really weak?

Here's the log.