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[Showdown35]

Hello!

Wanted to run this by the community.  A Knights like kingdom pile called "Hirelings".  I've got 5 made up so far, still deciding if there will be 10 unique cards, or a few duplicates (maybe 2 copies of these 5, or maybe 4 doubles and 2 unique, not sure yet).

Anyway, all the cards cost $6, and start with +3 Cards, Discard a card.  Then, their ability will activate if the discarded card is a Treasure.

Here are the 5:



Hired Assassin Action-Attack-Hireling
Reveal an action card from your hand. Each other player reveals his hand and trashes all copies of it.

Hired Bandit Action-Attack-Hireling
Each other player reveals the bottom card of his deck, then trashes it if it costs between $3 and #6.
You may gain any of the trashes cards that are not Victory cards.

Hired Recruiter Action-Hireling
Choose one: gain the top card of the Hirelings pile; gain an Attack card.

Hired Stalker Action-Hireling
The player to your left reveals his hand. You may choose an Action card from it and gain a copy.

Hired Street Toughs Action-Attack-Hireling
Each player (including you) reveals his hand, then each other player with at least 4 cards in hand
discards a card that you choose if you revealed a copy of it.

[soulnet]

I propose the following rewordings, seem clearer to me. Italics on differences when not obvious.

Hired Assassin Action-Attack-Hireling
Reveal an Action card from your hand. Each other player reveals his hand and trashes all copies of it.

Hired Bandit Action-Attack-Hireling
Each other player reveals the bottom card of his deck. If it costs between $3 and $6, he trashes it, otherwise, he puts it back.
You may gain any of the trashed cards that are not Victory cards.

(it is not clear to me whether you may gain any number or at most one. if it is any number, I would say any number, if it is just one, I would say up to one)

Hired Recruiter Action-Hireling
gain a Hireling or Attack card.

(note that this is different, even if there are no Attacks or no Hirelings, but not both, I cannot choose to gain nothing, while I can do that with your wording. Minor detail to me)

Hired Stalker Action-Hireling
The player to your left reveals his hand. You may choose an Action card from it and gain a copy of it.

Hired Street Toughs Action-Attack-Hireling
Each player (including you) reveals his hand.
Each other player discards a copy of a card in your hand that you choose.

With respect to the effects, they seem super powerful, especially Assassin and Street Toughs. Since they are so easy to chain (a la Torturer), but will never stop Attacking like Torturer, it seems to me that it may be hard to make progress. They don't even eliminate themselves like Knights do. I would tune the Attacking ones down a bit. Note that gaining a card is roughly similar in power to trashing one copy of it from everyone else, but Assassin trashes every copy, and it does so from the hand, so it also reduces handsize. And with many of this making people reveal their hands, it won't be so hard to know what to reveal. Seems to me those attacking hirelings are a bit too much "win more" kind of card. When you have enough of an engine to play them while revealing good cards, you stop everyone shut forever.

EDIT: Let me clarify by saying I really some of the ideas and the pile seems creative. And the art is great. Just commenting on the parts that can be improved, don't take it the wrong way. Also, it seems by the expansion symbol that it should be called "Dominion: Turkey". If you are going to call it Corruption, maybe use something not associated with a particular group of people.

[popsofctown]

Torturer comparison isn't totally apt.  Hitting 6$ consistently is way different from hitting 5$ consistently.  Discarding treasures all the time and being discouraged from trashing treasures will make an engine even harder.  I don't think this needs a Torturer-like antistacking mechanic any more than Bureaucrat or Cutpurse do.

I think Assassin would be ok if you have to discard the Action you revealed.

Street Toughs is a bit brutal.

[soulnet]

BTW, is there a reason to use the bottom card instead of the top card? If you put it back to where it came from when it whiffs, I don't see the point, and using the top is simpler for physical games.

[Showdown35]

Remember that there will only be one copy (maybe 2) of each of these cards, so I'm not really worried about chaining problems. That was the reason I wanted to make a Hirelings pile in the first place. I can have some brutal attacks, but since there's only one of each, I don't have to worry about them dominating the game too much.

The bottom card was more for flavor in development. I originally named it Hired Prowler, so it would make sense that he would be able to steal something well hidden (and usually un-fixed from Secret Chamber, or other top deck manipulators). I kept it the bottom because, again, not worried about chaining it, and I wanted to somewhat nerf the effect of TRing or KCing it.

I am condisering Assassin requiring a discard of the Action, but I don't know. I would think the work you have to do to know what is in your opponents hands, and have the Action in your hand that you want to target, plus you have to discard a treasure already just to take the shot. For $6 I thought that was reasonable, but maybe I'm underestimating how much the Assassin would hit at all, let alone multiple copies from one hand. I wanted the all copies clause in there so there is some kind of big payoff if you manage to put it all together, at the risk that he trashes nothing or only from one player.


The expansion symbol I just haven't created yet. My first concept of the set was Dominion after dark, hence the moon and star, and I haven't made my Corruption expansion symbol yet. Any suggestions? I was thinking like a guillotine or gallows or something (hard to represent that in a small symbol, I know) since the theme is the law's attempt to control Corruption.

Thank you for the comments, and I most definitely don't take them the wrong way. If I didn't want critiques I wouldn't post them at all! Please pick away at them as much as you want, that's how I see things I didn't think of, and improve the design.

[popsofctown]

Remember that there will only be one copy (maybe 2) of each of these cards, so I'm not really worried about chaining problems. That was the reason I wanted to make a Hirelings pile in the first place. I can have some brutal attacks, but since there's only one of each, I don't have to worry about them dominating the game too much.

The bottom card was more for flavor in development. I originally named it Hired Prowler, so it would make sense that he would be able to steal something well hidden (and usually un-fixed from Secret Chamber, or other top deck manipulators). I kept it the bottom because, again, not worried about chaining it, and I wanted to somewhat nerf the effect of TRing or KCing it.

I am condisering Assassin requiring a discard of the Action, but I don't know. I would think the work you have to do to know what is in your opponents hands, and have the Action in your hand that you want to target, plus you have to discard a treasure already just to take the shot. For $6 I thought that was reasonable, but maybe I'm underestimating how much the Assassin would hit at all, let alone multiple copies from one hand. I wanted the all copies clause in there so there is some kind of big payoff if you manage to put it all together, at the risk that he trashes nothing or only from one player.


The expansion symbol I just haven't created yet. My first concept of the set was Dominion after dark, hence the moon and star, and I haven't made my Corruption expansion symbol yet. Any suggestions? I was thinking like a guillotine or gallows or something (hard to represent that in a small symbol, I know) since the theme is the law's attempt to control Corruption.

Thank you for the comments, and I most definitely don't take them the wrong way. If I didn't want critiques I wouldn't post them at all! Please pick away at them as much as you want, that's how I see things I didn't think of, and improve the design.

Well I was deliberately suggesting a nerf that preserves the "big payoff" possibility.  It's not such a huge nerf, the Hireling is a terminal so often the discarded action wouldn't be possible to play anyway.  It only harms the best case scenarios.  And it helps a lot in dealing with the "unfair access" aspect of the stack, only one player has a Hired Assassin, so if he can play it every other turn to keep his opponent from using a pivotal card like Ghost Ship, it's not "fair" to let him monopolize that card.  It's kind of like a one sided Embargo.

Discarded action cards can be redrawn later so the player with the Assassin can still play it if he draws his whole deck.

[Showdown35]

Remember that there will only be one copy (maybe 2) of each of these cards, so I'm not really worried about chaining problems. That was the reason I wanted to make a Hirelings pile in the first place. I can have some brutal attacks, but since there's only one of each, I don't have to worry about them dominating the game too much.

The bottom card was more for flavor in development. I originally named it Hired Prowler, so it would make sense that he would be able to steal something well hidden (and usually un-fixed from Secret Chamber, or other top deck manipulators). I kept it the bottom because, again, not worried about chaining it, and I wanted to somewhat nerf the effect of TRing or KCing it.

I am condisering Assassin requiring a discard of the Action, but I don't know. I would think the work you have to do to know what is in your opponents hands, and have the Action in your hand that you want to target, plus you have to discard a treasure already just to take the shot. For $6 I thought that was reasonable, but maybe I'm underestimating how much the Assassin would hit at all, let alone multiple copies from one hand. I wanted the all copies clause in there so there is some kind of big payoff if you manage to put it all together, at the risk that he trashes nothing or only from one player.


The expansion symbol I just haven't created yet. My first concept of the set was Dominion after dark, hence the moon and star, and I haven't made my Corruption expansion symbol yet. Any suggestions? I was thinking like a guillotine or gallows or something (hard to represent that in a small symbol, I know) since the theme is the law's attempt to control Corruption.

Thank you for the comments, and I most definitely don't take them the wrong way. If I didn't want critiques I wouldn't post them at all! Please pick away at them as much as you want, that's how I see things I didn't think of, and improve the design.

Well I was deliberately suggesting a nerf that preserves the "big payoff" possibility.  It's not such a huge nerf, the Hireling is a terminal so often the discarded action wouldn't be possible to play anyway.  It only harms the best case scenarios.  And it helps a lot in dealing with the "unfair access" aspect of the stack, only one player has a Hired Assassin, so if he can play it every other turn to keep his opponent from using a pivotal card like Ghost Ship, it's not "fair" to let him monopolize that card.  It's kind of like a one sided Embargo.

Discarded action cards can be redrawn later so the player with the Assassin can still play it if he draws his whole deck.

Excellent points. You've convinced me that discarding the action is the way to go!

[KingZog3]

How about a noose as the symbol? It's easier to represent than gallows.

[Showdown35]

@soulnet: I wish there was a clear and consistent language and wording of published cards. The way some cards are worded just seems like they were thrown together last minute... kinda bothers me, but also means there isn't really a "correct" way of wording cards.

I do agree with most of your proposed changes. When I word a card, I always try to compare its effect to a published card and use similar wording. I don't know why I didn't acually look up Thief when wording Hired Bandit. Theif says "you may gain any or all," which still has the problem of unclearity. Obviously it means any number (obvious because there is detailed rules in the rulebook), but one could take it to mean "either one, or all, but not some."

My intention was to have it be the same as theif, but I'm considering making it "up to one of the trashed cards" to edge it's power level a little in multiplayer games.

[Showdown35]

How about a noose as the symbol? It's easier to represent than gallows.

Love it!  That will have serious consideration!  I guess I really should make a "Hangman" card... or a "Gallows" card!

[LibraryAdventurer]

The idea and the artwork are cool, and I don't think they're too strong at all.  I was actually thinking some of them at least would be better valued at cost $5 (but of course you probably want them all at the same cost).  There are already some kinda brutal attacks in the game*, and the base effect of these is almost equivelent to the courtyard (cost $2: +3 cards and put one back -except these say discard one instead of put one back). 

I think it'd be better to make 10 individual ones than have 2 copies of some and others be unique.  Maybe a hired informant, hired armsmaster, hired guard, etc.  (yeah, I know, the card name is the easy part...)

*The most similar ones are probably the rogue and torturer and they're both $5.