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[XerxesPraelor]

I don't think it stays in play, or at least it would be more interesting if it didn't. Also, I really think it should cost $2, and I'm voting for it under the assumption that if it wins its price will be raised.

[Nic]

I assumed that the author typed it Duration because they thought it was a valid substitute for a "During your Clean-Up phase, do not discard this from play." If it didn't stay in play, it would literally just be a Bargain you could draw dead and couldn't use against junking attacks at all.

[Warfreak2]

Remodel cards are trashers, just not deck thinners. You named Upgrade already.

I have no idea what your point is. The fan card in question does not work remotely like Butcher and gives none of Butcher's benefits. It trashes for no benefit. Upgrade, unlike Butcher and Remodel, trashes Copper and doesn't force you to gain a card to replace it (Poor House excepted).

I don't know why you want to argue about definitions when it's clear what I (and everyone else) mean by a trasher. If you want to call it a "deck thinner" then fine, please feel free to replace every instance of the word "trasher" with "deck thinner" in every post ever. You could equally well say that Great Hall is a drawer because it draws +1 Card, and call what everyone else calls a drawer a "handsize increaser", but I don't know what the point would be.

[LastFootnote]

Remodel cards are trashers, just not deck thinners. You named Upgrade already.

I have no idea what your point is. The fan card in question does not work remotely like Butcher and gives none of Butcher's benefits. It trashes for no benefit. Upgrade, unlike Butcher and Remodel, trashes Copper and doesn't force you to gain a card to replace it (Poor House excepted).

I don't know why you want to argue about definitions when it's clear what I (and everyone else) mean by a trasher. If you want to call it a "deck thinner" then fine, please feel free to replace every instance of the word "trasher" with "deck thinner" in every post ever. You could equally well say that Great Hall is a drawer because it draws +1 Card, and call what everyone else calls a drawer a "handsize increaser", but I don't know what the point would be.

Sorry. I came into it mid-conversation and didn't really have any context. My bad.

[eHalcyon]

I consider Remodel and family to be TfB, and I consider TfB to be trashers.

[LastFootnote]

So, you'll be happy to know that I've tallied up the votes already! However, I will not be posting the results. This time I cast a tie-making vote rather than a tie-breaking one. Part of the reason I did this was because only 21 of you bothered to vote this contest. Pathetic! Hopefully this neck-and-neck race will inspire some more focused debate and we'll have higher turnout for the final showdown.

The two frontrunners are:

Recycle
Types: Action – Duration
Cost: $5
Trash a card from your hand. Gain a card costing up to $2 more than the trashed card, setting it aside face down. At the start of your next turn, return the gained card to your hand and trash a card from your hand, gaining a card costing up to $1 more than that trashed card.

Observatory
Types: Action
Cost: $2
+1 Action. Trash a card from your hand. Look at one card from your deck per $ in its cost. You may put one of them into your hand and discard any number of the others. Put the rest back in any order.

Do not submit votes for this via PM! Tomorrow I will probably add a poll to this thread. Or another thread. Whatever. Anyway, people will vote via poll. In the meantime, I encourage you to discuss these two cards. For those of you whose cards are not frontrunners, please hold off on discussing your own submission until Friday, when I plan to post the final results. I know that sucks, but I feel your pain. I'd like to discuss my submissions, too, but I'd like to have the conversation focus on the two frontrunners until we have a winner. Thanks!

[ChocophileBenj]

I wish I came up with a TfB idea now !
And yet, I had some ones !

(I did Docks (B))

[GwinnR]

I like Observatory more. It is a nice new way of Trash for Benefit and a sort of Cartographer, which I also like.

Recycle is a mix of Remodel and Develop. It's ok, but it is not really enthusing me.

[KingZog3]

Both of these are interesting cards. But I think Observatory adds more than Recycle. Recycle is a gainer+remodler. While it's a completely unique way to go about this type of card, it's mostly useful in the same situations. Observatory on the hand looks to me like a completely new TfB card. It uses that mechanic in a way that hasn't really been covered. Yes there are card like Scavenger and Hunting Party that seek out cards, but this is pretty different than those cards. It's also $2, which is nice because otherwise the set will mostly be $5 cards.

[Robz888]

Both of these are interesting cards. But I think Observatory adds more than Recycle. Recycle is a gainer+remodler. While it's a completely unique way to go about this type of card, it's mostly useful in the same situations. Observatory on the hand looks to me like a completely new TfB card. It uses that mechanic in a way that hasn't really been covered. Yes there are card like Scavenger and Hunting Party that seek out cards, but this is pretty different than those cards. It's also $2, which is nice because otherwise the set will mostly be $5 cards.

well, I don't think Observatory can actually stand at $2, can it? That seems too cheap to me for this card.

[LastFootnote]

I don't find Observatory that exciting because it's basically a worse Apprentice in most cases. You get to look at the same number of cards. Observatory draws one, discards some, and puts the others back. Apprentice puts all of those cards into your hand.

Now, cards that are (almost) strictly worse than a more expensive card are not unheard of by any means. Remodel is a worse Butcher. Moneylender is a worse Counterfeit. Throne Room is a worse King's Court! But I think Observatory is too weak at any cost. It's a fair Estate-trasher, I guess. But how often do you think you'll be willing to trash an expensive card with this, like you would with Apprentice? Not often, I'll wager. Although it's cool in theory, I think it's going to be very underwhelming in practice. You'll probably trash your Estates and then have a dead card.

Recycle fills a very cool niche: a Duration Remodel. And it does it in a way that makes the Duration matter: by putting the card into your hand next turn. I think it's a little clunky with the way it does another remodel on the next turn. That seems unnecessary to me. It makes the card less compelling in my mind and also runs the risk of running out the Provinces very quickly. But obviously I'm in the minority, since I saw Recycle and created Dispatch as an attempt at a more compelling version of the concept. It tied for 3rd with four other cards.

Overall, I think Recycle is a better choice than Observatory.

EDIT: Also, Seaside already has a Cartographer-like card: Navigator. It's really hurting for a Remodel variant, though.

[eHalcyon]

Yeah I think it would have to be $3.

I forgot to vote! If I had, Recycle would have won. Sorry, Recycle designer.

I like Recycle more but Observatory is cool too. But you shouldn't vote for it just because of the cost because that's likely to change.

Edit: but LF thinks it's too weak at any cost, so who knows...

[XerxesPraelor]

Aww. My card was the best...

[A Drowned Kernel]

Damn, I voted for both of those. This is a tough call, but I think I agree with LF that Recycle is more interesting.

[Schneau]

21 is a pathetically small number of voters, considering there were about 40 cards entered. Maybe there needs to be more incentive to vote? One option: You cannot enter a card in a contest if you did not vote in the previous one. I know it takes less work to enter a card than to vote, but at the same time I'd welcome fewer entries to sort through for voting. Maybe this is too harsh though.

[Schneau]

I voted for both of these! Let's look at the pros and cons.

Recycle
Types: Action – Duration
Cost: $5
Trash a card from your hand. Gain a card costing up to $2 more than the trashed card, setting it aside face down. At the start of your next turn, return the gained card to your hand and trash a card from your hand, gaining a card costing up to $1 more than that trashed card.

Pros: It's an interesting take on the Remodel variant. And, it feels very Seaside.
Cons: As others have said, this feels pretty strong, since it can be a 1-turn-delayed Expand many times, but often even better -- even just remodeling a card into the next hand is pretty powerful, even without the next turn mini-Remodel. Also, it feels sort of plain, despite its long text.

Observatory
Types: Action
Cost: $2
+1 Action. Trash a card from your hand. Look at one card from your deck per $ in its cost. You may put one of them into your hand and discard any number of the others. Put the rest back in any order.

Pros: The TFB here is different than any other TFB, and I like that uniqueness. It is quite a weak card, but I think it would have some utility as a light trasher / filterer in engine games without those. I actually think it fits the $2 price tag well - $2 cards should be weak, but have good utility in some games.
Cons: I don't often see trashing cards costing more than $2 with this, except for maybe cards like Sea Hag once the Curses have emptied. This card actually feels like it might fit more in Hinterlands or Dark Ages than Seaside.

[Watno]

Well, I feel you can do alot more exciting things with Recycle than with Observatory.
The bad thing is it kinda lowers the chances for my Supply Ship in the next round.

[dghunter79]

I didn't vote for either of these!

Observatory
Types: Action
Cost: $2
+1 Action. Trash a card from your hand. Look at one card from your deck per $ in its cost. You may put one of them into your hand and discard any number of the others. Put the rest back in any order.

Observatory is practically very similar to Mortuary, the Dark Ages Winner.  Both of them amount to "+1 action.  Trash a Card.  Draw a card if you trashed a card that cost more than 0."

Both of them are pretty weak, because both of them are trash-for-benefit cards whose benefit doesn't scale up in cost.  So they're basically good for trashing Estates and Rats.  Observatory might also be a nice combo with Tunnel.

Honestly, I might prefer Observatory to Mortuary because it's cheaper and doesn't involve as much attention.  But since we already have Mortuary, it seems like you'd want to avoid adding Observatory.

Recycle
Types: Action – Duration
Cost: $5
Trash a card from your hand. Gain a card costing up to $2 more than the trashed card, setting it aside face down. At the start of your next turn, return the gained card to your hand and trash a card from your hand, gaining a card costing up to $1 more than that trashed card.

Recycle seems overpowered at 5.  It's a Remodel with two enormous added benefits.  But, at 6, that could be OK.  I vote for this one.

(Though I think Investment was the most interesting card in this round.)

[Nic]

But how often do you think you'll be willing to trash an expensive card with this, like you would with Apprentice? Not often, I'll wager. Although it's cool in theory, I think it's going to be very underwhelming in practice. You'll probably trash your Estates and then have a dead card.

This. It doesn't matter how unique a card's power is if there aren't any situations where you would actually use it.

Recycle fills a very cool niche: a Duration Remodel. And it does it in a way that makes the Duration matter: by putting the card into your hand next turn. I think it's a little clunky with the way it does another remodel on the next turn. That seems unnecessary to me. It makes the card less compelling in my mind and also runs the risk of running out the Provinces very quickly. But obviously I'm in the minority, since I saw Recycle and created Dispatch as an attempt at a more compelling version of the concept. It tied for 3rd with four other cards.

Dispatch I liked much better: I assumed it was Robz's card, because it was exactly like Renovate but with an elegant fix for the autopile combo. Is there any chance at all you could put the 3rd place cards on the new ballot? The difference between 11 and 10 votes isn't really significant.

[GendoIkari]

I don't find Observatory that exciting because it's basically a worse Apprentice in most cases. You get to look at the same number of cards. Observatory draws one, discards some, and puts the others back. Apprentice puts all of those cards into your hand.

Now, cards that are (almost) strictly worse than a more expensive card are not unheard of by any means. Remodel is a worse Butcher. Moneylender is a worse Counterfeit. Throne Room is a worse King's Court! But I think Observatory is too weak at any cost. It's a fair Estate-trasher, I guess. But how often do you think you'll be willing to trash an expensive card with this, like you would with Apprentice? Not often, I'll wager. Although it's cool in theory, I think it's going to be very underwhelming in practice. You'll probably trash your Estates and then have a dead card.

Recycle fills a very cool niche: a Duration Remodel. And it does it in a way that makes the Duration matter: by putting the card into your hand next turn. I think it's a little clunky with the way it does another remodel on the next turn. That seems unnecessary to me. It makes the card less compelling in my mind and also runs the risk of running out the Provinces very quickly. But obviously I'm in the minority, since I saw Recycle and created Dispatch as an attempt at a more compelling version of the concept. It tied for 3rd with four other cards.

Overall, I think Recycle is a better choice than Observatory.

EDIT: Also, Seaside already has a Cartographer-like card: Navigator. It's really hurting for a Remodel variant, though.

What about comparing Observatory to Lookout? It seems to me that Observatory is stronger in most cases. They both non-terminally trash 1 card. They cycle at the same speed if you trash an Estate with Observatory. You don't tend to play Lookout in the mid to late game, so it's basically a dead card. At least with Observatory you know if it's safe to play or not. I have trouble thinking of reasons why I would ever want a Lookout over an Observatory.

Also, "But how often do you think you'll be willing to trash an expensive card with this"... ok, not often at all. But why do you need to be able to? You won't be willing to trash an expensive card with Chapel or Lookout either.

[cluckyb]

Sorry for not voting. Got annoyed at myself for completely screwing up the wording to my card and ignored the contest for a few days 

I think that Recycle is more interesting than Observatory. A duration Remodeler is certainly a cool idea. I agree that it is a little strong (its better than an Expand that takes two turns to put the gained card into your hand) but that can be tweaked away. I feel like pricing it at $6 would make it annoying expensive, so maybe just a 1 and 1 remodel.

[Schneau]

I don't find Observatory that exciting because it's basically a worse Apprentice in most cases. You get to look at the same number of cards. Observatory draws one, discards some, and puts the others back. Apprentice puts all of those cards into your hand.

Now, cards that are (almost) strictly worse than a more expensive card are not unheard of by any means. Remodel is a worse Butcher. Moneylender is a worse Counterfeit. Throne Room is a worse King's Court! But I think Observatory is too weak at any cost. It's a fair Estate-trasher, I guess. But how often do you think you'll be willing to trash an expensive card with this, like you would with Apprentice? Not often, I'll wager. Although it's cool in theory, I think it's going to be very underwhelming in practice. You'll probably trash your Estates and then have a dead card.

Recycle fills a very cool niche: a Duration Remodel. And it does it in a way that makes the Duration matter: by putting the card into your hand next turn. I think it's a little clunky with the way it does another remodel on the next turn. That seems unnecessary to me. It makes the card less compelling in my mind and also runs the risk of running out the Provinces very quickly. But obviously I'm in the minority, since I saw Recycle and created Dispatch as an attempt at a more compelling version of the concept. It tied for 3rd with four other cards.

Overall, I think Recycle is a better choice than Observatory.

EDIT: Also, Seaside already has a Cartographer-like card: Navigator. It's really hurting for a Remodel variant, though.

What about comparing Observatory to Lookout? It seems to me that Observatory is stronger in most cases. They both non-terminally trash 1 card. They cycle at the same speed if you trash an Estate with Observatory. You don't tend to play Lookout in the mid to late game, so it's basically a dead card. At least with Observatory you know if it's safe to play or not. I have trouble thinking of reasons why I would ever want a Lookout over an Observatory.

Also, "But how often do you think you'll be willing to trash an expensive card with this"... ok, not often at all. But why do you need to be able to? You won't be willing to trash an expensive card with Chapel or Lookout either.

Lookout is probably better for trashing Coppers, Curses, and Ruins -- when you do, it gives you a 4 card hand instead of 3 with Observatory. Otherwise, good comparison.

[werothegreat]

Wait, are we not supposed to vote via PM?  Does that mean you didn't count my vote?

[SirPeebles]

Wait, are we not supposed to vote via PM?  Does that mean you didn't count my vote?

You usually vote by PM.  For this run-off, it will be in a poll rather than PM.  This is probably substantially less work for LastFootnote.

[LastFootnote]

(Though I think Investment was the most interesting card in this round.)

D'awww, thanks. Investment was this round's Enterprise card, though, so it couldn't have won anyway.

Dispatch I liked much better: I assumed it was Robz's card, because it was exactly like Renovate but with an elegant fix for the autopile combo. Is there any chance at all you could put the 3rd place cards on the new ballot? The difference between 11 and 10 votes isn't really significant.

I recently realized that I had only voted for one card (the tie-maker), so I went back and voted for the other cards I liked. Now Dispatch is tied for 3rd with one other card (Investment). That being said, they're still statistically way behind Recycle and Observatory. Recycle and Observatory had 10 votes each. Dispatch and Investment (my two cards) had 6.

(Just to clarify for those who haven't been keeping up, Dispatch was my bona-fide submission. Investment was the card I submitted to get feedback on it.)

Sorry for not voting. Got annoyed at myself for completely screwing up the wording to my card and ignored the contest for a few days 

I apologize for not getting back to you about changing the wording! I meant to, but it just slipped through the cracks. Sorry!

I think that Recycle is more interesting than Observatory. A duration Remodeler is certainly a cool idea. I agree that it is a little strong (its better than an Expand that takes two turns to put the gained card into your hand) but that can be tweaked away. I feel like pricing it at $6 would make it annoying expensive, so maybe just a 1 and 1 remodel.

Without thinking through all the implications of it, I agree that changing it to $1 and $1 sounds way better than bumping it to $6. Even if that means bumping it down to $4, that's fine with me. If it wins, we can ask the card's author for input.

What about comparing Observatory to Lookout? It seems to me that Observatory is stronger in most cases. They both non-terminally trash 1 card. They cycle at the same speed if you trash an Estate with Observatory. You don't tend to play Lookout in the mid to late game, so it's basically a dead card. At least with Observatory you know if it's safe to play or not. I have trouble thinking of reasons why I would ever want a Lookout over an Observatory.

Also, "But how often do you think you'll be willing to trash an expensive card with this"... ok, not often at all. But why do you need to be able to? You won't be willing to trash an expensive card with Chapel or Lookout either.

But Chapel and Lookout don't give bonuses for trashing expensive cards. I don't think it's worth having a trash-for-benefit effect that scales with cost if realistically you're never almost never going to trash anything more expensive than $2.

As for your comparison to Lookout, I think that Schneau is right and you underestimate how much worse having a 3-card hand is than a 4-card hand. Regardless, the fact that it's so close to Lookout is itself a strike against the card. Seaside already has a cheap, non-terminal deck thinner.

EDIT: Also, I do tend to play Lookout mid-game, and sometimes late-game if the conditions are right.