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[soulnet]

I would like to know how strong is the passing hability of Masquerade, or, in other hand, how would Masq compare to plain
+2 Cards, you may trash a card from your hand.

I tend to think the passing is a nice hability, but I read here and there some good players saying it is actually just a fun thing and not a boon.

My argument in a nutshell is that you choose weither or not to play the Masq while the opponents don't, and you usually have more cards to choose what to pass, so you are in better shape to give out junk than they.

Care to comment?

[Watno]

KC/Goons/Masquerade

[SCSN]

A Masq that doesn't pass wouldn't be much weaker in the early game, but the main strength of the passing effect lies in playing it after a discard attack, or even just your opponent knowing that you might be able to play it. This forces him to either keep a weak card in hand or risk having to pass a good card.

In a recent game I played a Ghost Ship followed by a Masq and a Rogue (later two) almost every turn

[soulnet]

So, is it your opinion that without handsize reducing the passing has no effect? I still think it has some positive effect, even if its not the strongest part of the card.

[LastFootnote]

So, is it your opinion that without handsize reducing the passing has no effect? I still think it has some positive effect, even if its not the strongest part of the card.

Yes, it has some positive effect, even if it's not the strongest part of the card. Eventually you're cleaning out your opponent's Estates, though, so there's that to consider.

[dondon151]

It does play a substantial role in mitigating the effect of Curses, a bit more so than trashing alone.

[Geronimoo]

The passing has a positive effect on the win rate. In my simulator Masquerade wins 53% -43% vs Smithy BM. If I remove the passing a card from the Masquerade code it wins 49% - 46%.

[SCSN]

So, is it your opinion that without handsize reducing the passing has no effect? I still think it has some positive effect, even if its not the strongest part of the card.

It still has a marginal benefit: you exchange the worst card from your 6-card hand with the worst card from his 5-card hand, which should benefit you unless you are already quite a bit ahead (once the passing improves his deck, the no-pass Masq is obviously better).

[soulnet]

It still has a marginal benefit: you exchange the worst card from your 6-card hand with the worst card from his 5-card hand, which should benefit you unless you are already quite a bit ahead (once the passing improves his deck, the no-pass Masq is obviously better).

This was my thinking. Moreover, if there is an engine, its quite possible to be choosing from more than 6 (or less in your hand, but you've seen more than 6 and played some, which are obviously cards you do not want to pass) while even with a good deck, their hand is not going to be more than 5.

[soulnet]

The passing has a positive effect on the win rate. In my simulator Masquerade wins 53% -43% vs Smithy BM. If I remove the passing a card from the Masquerade code it wins 49% - 46%.

Great data! How about Masq vs non-passing Masq? Is that too hard to find out? Sorry, I have no experience with any simulator.

[Geronimoo]

Great data! How about Masq vs non-passing Masq? Is that too hard to find out? Sorry, I have no experience with any simulator.

Masq 52% - non-passing Masq 41%

[flies]

the card passing discourages strong trashing in general.  this is true whether you're playing with or against masque.

and let's not forget curses.

I think SCSN's general point about 6 vs 5 cards proves that passing is a modest advantage in general.

[eHalcyon]

It might also be interesting to test a masq that passes but can't trash.

[SirPeebles]

As dondon spoke towards, the passing a big part of why Masquerade is such a potent counter to Cursers.  I'll often pass on Sea Hag when Masquerade is on the board.  And not just because of the trashing, but because Masquerade can pass the Curses right back to me.

Edit:  If people would like to do simulations, I'd be interested in how much passing plays a role against Witch-BM.

[DG]

The card passing isn't just a fun thing. There are a few cards in dominion that link decks, such as masquerade, jesters, possession, and they tend to be quite complicated since changes to each deck are not made in isolation. The impact of masquerade does unfortunately depend upon the kingdom, deck contents, hand contents, the number of players, etc.

The card passing will typically equalize the worst card in each opponents' deck (or more specifically hand). If you deck is better than your right hand opponent's you can mitigate this equalization by trashing the passed card (and many players just ignore the implications). However your opponents cannot immediately mitigate a bad exchange, and that bad exchange could be due to skilful play, luck, or general deck quality.

This leads to the situation where an action "draw 2 cards, you may trash a card" appears worse than a masquerade. The lucky turns 3 and 4 where you can exchange an estate for a copper are not balanced out by the unlucky turns where you exchange a copper for an estate, since the masquerade trashes the estate. The partial mitigation of this bad result, regardless of future turns, goes some way to explaining Geronimoo's simulation.

Don't think about masquerades and iggs too much.

[Schneau]

This couldn't have happened if Masq didn't pass.

[Warfreak2]

I found that Masquerade is good if there are some people in the game who never played before - it's a good non-attack interaction.

It's also fun when you can play Masquerade Cutpurse Masquerade Cutpurse Masquerade Cutpurse Masquerade Cutpurse Masquerade.

[florrat]

I found that Masquerade is good if there are some people in the game who never played before - it's a good non-attack interaction.

It's also fun when you can play Masquerade Cutpurse Masquerade Cutpurse Masquerade Cutpurse Masquerade Cutpurse Masquerade.

That pin is new for me. That should be easy to set up and play every turn, right?

[Awaclus]

I found that Masquerade is good if there are some people in the game who never played before - it's a good non-attack interaction.

It's also fun when you can play Masquerade Cutpurse Masquerade Cutpurse Masquerade Cutpurse Masquerade Cutpurse Masquerade.

That pin is new for me. That should be easy to set up and play every turn, right?

You only need 9 Schemes and some KCs (too lazy to count how many) to set up and play that every turn.

[ftl]

Or one scrying pool, one scheme, and 8 of any village.

[Kirian]

Or one scrying pool, one scheme, and 8 of any village.

And five copper buys each turn.

[heron]

Or one scrying pool, one scheme, and 8 of any village.

And five copper buys each turn.

Probably just go beggar so that they don't interfere with scrying pool.

[Kirian]

OK, so, one Scrying Pool, 5 Masq, 5 Cutpurse, at least one Scrying Pool, a couple of Schemes, 2 Beggars, and 8 villages of some sort.  Seems easy to set up.

[amalloy]

10 villages, right? You'll need to play those Beggars too! And either two more Scrying Pools, to draw through the 0-2 copper that will be left in your deck, or a sixth Masquerade and another village to trash it at the end of each turn.

Still, seems easy enough.

[ftl]

Well, more generally, you need:

1) A good enough draw engine to draw everything. Could be scrying pools, labs, village/smithy.
2) Enough spare actions to play masq/cutpurse a few times in order. The more the better.
3) Either +Buy or another way of getting coppers.

KC/TR help with any one of those, but aren't required.

Jomini wrote a post on this a ways back: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=4676