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Author Topic: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #3: Dark Ages  (Read 101793 times)

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LastFootnote

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #3: Dark Ages
« Reply #150 on: September 24, 2013, 03:52:59 pm »
+2

Charter (A) would not be significantly worse than Junk Dealer.  JD forces you to trash a card from your hand.  Charter pretends to force you to trash a card from your deck, except it optionally lets you discard it.  Moreover, sometimes it lets you trash and then gain something better!  At its worse, it is a cantrip.  That means it pretty much never hurts to have it in you deck.  JD, OTOH, can actually run out of fodder and become dead.  At $5 JD is probably usually stronger than $5 Charter, but $4 Charter is just too good when you factor in the tricks that it can pull off.

lolwut? Are you just purposefully ignoring that Junk Dealer gives +$1 and gives you a choice of what gets trashed? The fact that it may eventually become a dead card is not a big deal. It's still way better than Charter (A) in almost all circumstances. I agree that the gain should be capped at $6, though.
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Robz888

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #3: Dark Ages
« Reply #151 on: September 24, 2013, 03:56:50 pm »
0

Quote
Cultivate
Types: Action – Victory
Cost: $5
+1 Action. Choose one: Trash a Victory card from your hand and gain a Treasure card costing up to $1 more; or trash a Treasure card from your hand and gain a Victory card costing up to $2 more.

This is worth 3 VP if there are at least 4 differently named Victory cards in the trash; otherwise it's worth 1 VP.

The top part is fine, although a $5 non-terminal Victory upgrader reminds me too much of Rebuild. The bottom I don't like. This is usually just going to be 1 VP.


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Cemetery
Types: Victory
Cost: $5
Worth 2 VP plus 1 VP for every 2 differently named Action cards in the trash.

When you gain this, trash a card from your hand other than a Cemetery.

Well, this can't be very good. You'll probably just buy it after your opponent has done all the work.


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Patrol
Types: Action – Reaction
Cost: $3
Discard any number of cards. Draw until you have 5 cards in hand.

When you discard a card from your hand other than during a Clean-up phase, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, either trash that card, or put it on top of your deck.

A very Watchtowery Cellary card. The top is nice, better than Cellar but reasonably so. But okay, the bottom: Why would you top deck a card you were discarding? This is supposed to be some draw-X assistance thing? Yeah I don't know, that seems kind of weird. I don't know, the card isn't very Dark Ages-y to me.


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Model Village
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Card. +2 Actions.

When you trash this, you may trash a card from your hand. If you do, gain a card costing up to $2 more than it.

It's a Village that is an on-trash Remodel. Well, I don't think this very good, because you don't want to get rid of your Villages. Think of Mining Village, which is not really a great Village, since trashing it kind of defeats the purpose. And Mining Village self-trashes so I would think this has to be alittle wosrse. Otherwise, they are similar effects.


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Tribal Man
Types: Action
Cost: $5
Gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile. Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal an Action card. Choose one: Put the card into your hand; or play the Action, trash it, and gain a card costing less than it.

When you trash this, gain an Action card costing at most $5 that is not a Tribal Man.

Well, points for originality. I am having trouble imaging how well it works in practice, but it's probably fine. Not super interesting to me, but okay, it's kind of cool. Don't love the name.


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Disciple
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Look through your discard pile. You may reveal a Treasure from it and put it into your hand. You may trash this and another copy of Disciple from your hand. If you do trash two Disciples, gain a Savior from the Savior pile.

Savior
Types: Action
Cost: 0*
+1 Action. You may put your deck into your discard pile. Look through your discard pile and put a card from it into your hand. You may return this to the Savior pile. If you do, play an Action card from your hand three times. (This is not in the Supply.)

No, don't like this at all. I think you're going to just spam Disciples to get the Savior effect most of the time. Unless I'm misjudging it and it's just awful. So I don't thin there's much interesting middle ground strategic landscape here, and that's no good. Like, would you want to play with Really Good Treasure Map? That's not fun.


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Renovate
Type: Action
Cost: $4
Trash a card from your hand. You may gain a card costing up to $1 more than the trashed card, putting it into your hand. If it is an Action card, play it.

Someone mentioned that this can gain all the Renovates if you have Fortress. I was thinking this wasn't such a worrisome thing, but actually maybe it is, because then you can mass Renovate Renovates and you play the stuff immediately and it's really good. This is a narrow combo, but maybe we'd just avoid it by stipulating that this card can't gain itself.


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Brick
Types: Treasure
Cost: $5
Worth $1. When you play this, trash a card you have in play. Gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it.

When you trash this, gain a Copper, putting it into your hand.

Clarification: Under normal circumstances, you will be able to trash the Brick you just played.

So it's in the Loan/Counterfeit family? Doesn't seem very strong to me. $5 is a lot of money for a Copper.


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Bricklayer
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Trash any number of differently named cards from your hand. +1 Card per card trashed.

Well, you usually don't have so many differently named cards that you want to trash. Like, 2 at most? I guess it's better with Ruins. Maybe if you have something of an engine going, you can clean out Ruins pretty well with this. And it's not too expensive. Well okay, let's say no Ruins. You trash Estate and Copper and get +2 cards. That's a decent effect. Yeah okay I like this card. Don't like the name, though. The name is very Guildsy to me.


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Deathmonger
Types: Action – Reaction
Cost: $3
Trash the top card of your deck. You may trash the top card of your deck.

When any player (including you) trashes cards, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, that player puts the trashed cards into his hand.

Wow. This is a really brutal attack. Someone tries to trash their cards, and you just stop them and give it right back? Yikes. No thanks.


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Carpenter
Types: Action
Cost: $5
Trash a card from your hand and gain a cheaper card, putting it into your hand. +$ equal to the cost in coins of the gained card.

When you trash this during your Action phase, +1 Action.

I like this. Not much to say. It's terminal Apprentice or Salvager without buy. Plus a fine on-trash. Wouldn't surprise me if it was too strong, though.

That's all for now.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #3: Dark Ages
« Reply #152 on: September 24, 2013, 04:17:33 pm »
0

Charter (A) would not be significantly worse than Junk Dealer.  JD forces you to trash a card from your hand.  Charter pretends to force you to trash a card from your deck, except it optionally lets you discard it.  Moreover, sometimes it lets you trash and then gain something better!  At its worse, it is a cantrip.  That means it pretty much never hurts to have it in you deck.  JD, OTOH, can actually run out of fodder and become dead.  At $5 JD is probably usually stronger than $5 Charter, but $4 Charter is just too good when you factor in the tricks that it can pull off.

lolwut? Are you just purposefully ignoring that Junk Dealer gives +$1 and gives you a choice of what gets trashed? The fact that it may eventually become a dead card is not a big deal. It's still way better than Charter (A) in almost all circumstances. I agree that the gain should be capped at $6, though.

Not ignoring it.  Charter (A) is always safe, which means you can safely get multiple copies of it.  For the purposes of quickly slimming down, I think it matches and possibly exceeds Junk Dealer, and its ability to gain other trashed cards also gives it an advantage.  I agree that Junk Dealer is better, but I don't think it is significantly so.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #3: Dark Ages
« Reply #153 on: September 24, 2013, 04:24:56 pm »
0

Quote
Renovate
Type: Action
Cost: $4
Trash a card from your hand. You may gain a card costing up to $1 more than the trashed card, putting it into your hand. If it is an Action card, play it.

Someone mentioned that this can gain all the Renovates if you have Fortress. I was thinking this wasn't such a worrisome thing, but actually maybe it is, because then you can mass Renovate Renovates and you play the stuff immediately and it's really good. This is a narrow combo, but maybe we'd just avoid it by stipulating that this card can't gain itself.

This doesn't actually fix the problem, I think.  Renovate Fortress into BoM, play BoM as Renovate.  OK, now we're looking at a 3-card combo, but when it's on the board it is just as easy to pull off.  And the end result is usually better, because now you have 10 BoMs rather than 10 Renovates.
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Robz888

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #3: Dark Ages
« Reply #154 on: September 24, 2013, 04:25:55 pm »
0

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Necromancy
Types: Action – Attack
Cost: $5
Choose one: Gain an Action or Treasure card from the trash, putting it into your hand. Play it immediately. At the end of the turn, trash that card; or each other player reveals the top 2 cards of his deck, trashes one of them costing from $3 to $6, and discards the rest.

When you gain this, you may trash a card costing up to $6 from the Supply if there is not a copy of it in the trash.

I'm not wanting to see more Rogues/Knights type stuff, really. Sorry.


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Ravage
Types: Action – Attack – Looter
Cost: $5
You may discard a card. If you do, +1 Action. Each other player with 3 or more cards in hand reveals his hand and discards the card with the highest cost in coins (you choose in a tie). If he discarded a Victory card, he gains a Ruins, putting it into his hand.

Very very strong, right? Like massively strong. It's very easily non-terminal, and you knock out their best card, and if they have Province in hand you are giving them a Ruins? Okay, I guess a delayed Ruins giver isn't so great. And there's no benefit to you. But before they green, really this is just Pillage. And you can do it again at that point. No thanks.


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Junkyard (A)
Types: Action – Looter
Cost: $5
+1 Action. You may gain a Ruins, putting it into your hand. Discard any number of cards. +1 Card per card discarded. +1 Card per Action card discarded. You may trash this.

When you trash this, +2 Cards.

Yeah, there's comes a point where there's just too much going on with your card. Anyway, I suspect this is too strong, based on all the various ways it gives you + cards.


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Mortuary
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. Look through your discard pile. You may trash a card from your discard pile or hand.

While this is in play, when you trash a card costing $2 or more, +1 Card.

Seemingly weak, but the while in play fact of it makes it kind of interesting. Has a nice interaction with cards you want to trash, like Rats and Fortress and such. Yeah, this is cool.


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Pact
Type: Treasure
Cost: $2
Worth $0. When you play this, trash it. For each Pact in the trash, gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile, putting it into your hand.

When you buy a Pact, each player gains a copy of it (you get 2 copies total).

I like the idea, but I tihnk it fails completely in execution. You just never want to play it, it's always more benefit to your opponent, and you GIVE them Pacts. Also it has a weird interaction with the Spoils running out. I don't think interesting weird, just weird.


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Ferret
Types: Action
Cost: $4
You may trash this. If you do, +$ equal to the cost in coins of an Action card in the trash that you choose.

While this is in play, when you buy a card, gain a Ferret from the Supply or trash.

Since you may trash it, it's never worth less than $4. I just don't think it's very exciting. Sort of like a cross between Death Cart and Rats, but not trading exciting new ground.


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Incendiarist
Types: Action – Attack – Looter
Cost: $5
You may trash a card from your hand. If it is an… Action card, each other player gains a Ruins; Treasure card, gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile; Victory card, each other player gains a Curse.

Incendiarist is not a word. How about Bombardier? Anyway, this seems irritiatingly strong--you get rid of Estates and give them Curses. There's no vanilla benefit to you, but it's flexibile--you can just trash Copper for Spoils and that's really strong as well I suspect. Probably too strong at $5. And I don't love it.


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Priestcraft
Types: Action – Attack
Cost: $5
+$2. Choose one: Trash a card from your hand; or choose a card in the trash and each other player gains a copy of that card, putting it on top of his deck.

Way too strong. A flexible Mountebank that doesn't hurt quite as much, but then again the junk goes on top of their deck and it can't be blocked. I'd say this is actually going to be stronger than Mountebank, provided you can get a Curse into the trash. Although spamming them with Estates is also going to really hurt, and this card can put Estates in the trash very easily. Oh, and the piles will run very fast. Yeah this is too strong. Maybe even at $6.


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Miser
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Choose two: +$2; gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile; gain a Silver. (The choices must be different.)

I think this card is fine but a bit boring and not very Dark Agesy.


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Charter (A)
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Card. +1 Action. Trash the top card of your deck. You may gain a card from the trash.

When you trash this, +2 Cards.

A lot of work to make this good, and it still really isn't.


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Robber Baron
Types: Action – Attack – Looter
Cost: $4
You may discard a Ruins. If you do, +$3 and each other player discards down to 3 cards in hand. Otherwise, gain a Ruins.

When you gain this, gain 2 Ruins.

Super weak I suspect, and too much like Death Cart. Having Ruins is NOT good.
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Robz888

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #3: Dark Ages
« Reply #155 on: September 24, 2013, 04:33:21 pm »
0

Quote
Renovate
Type: Action
Cost: $4
Trash a card from your hand. You may gain a card costing up to $1 more than the trashed card, putting it into your hand. If it is an Action card, play it.

Someone mentioned that this can gain all the Renovates if you have Fortress. I was thinking this wasn't such a worrisome thing, but actually maybe it is, because then you can mass Renovate Renovates and you play the stuff immediately and it's really good. This is a narrow combo, but maybe we'd just avoid it by stipulating that this card can't gain itself.

This doesn't actually fix the problem, I think.  Renovate Fortress into BoM, play BoM as Renovate.  OK, now we're looking at a 3-card combo, but when it's on the board it is just as easy to pull off.  And the end result is usually better, because now you have 10 BoMs rather than 10 Renovates.

You're right! Okay, how about this pretty clever--though exceedingly gimmicky--solution.

"While this is in play, there are no Renovates left in the supply." So you can't gain Renovate, and you can't play BoM as Renovate.  ;D
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LastFootnote

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #3: Dark Ages
« Reply #156 on: September 24, 2013, 04:41:18 pm »
0

Quote
Renovate
Type: Action
Cost: $4
Trash a card from your hand. You may gain a card costing up to $1 more than the trashed card, putting it into your hand. If it is an Action card, play it.

Someone mentioned that this can gain all the Renovates if you have Fortress. I was thinking this wasn't such a worrisome thing, but actually maybe it is, because then you can mass Renovate Renovates and you play the stuff immediately and it's really good. This is a narrow combo, but maybe we'd just avoid it by stipulating that this card can't gain itself.

This doesn't actually fix the problem, I think.  Renovate Fortress into BoM, play BoM as Renovate.  OK, now we're looking at a 3-card combo, but when it's on the board it is just as easy to pull off.  And the end result is usually better, because now you have 10 BoMs rather than 10 Renovates.

You're right! Okay, how about this pretty clever--though exceedingly gimmicky--solution.

"While this is in play, there are no Renovates left in the supply." So you can't gain Renovate, and you can't play BoM as Renovate.  ;D

Aaaand, you've crossed the line from clever into clunky. I mean it's still a clever fix, but the clunkiness trumps it in my mind.  :)
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Schneau

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #3: Dark Ages
« Reply #157 on: September 24, 2013, 04:49:36 pm »
0

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Charter (A)
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Card. +1 Action. Trash the top card of your deck. You may gain a card from the trash.

When you trash this, +2 Cards.

Not to disrespect DXV, but I see this being more of a fun combo than a broken interaction. How often do Provinces end up in the trash normally -- maybe 1-2% of games? Then, in the handful of games where you'd want to TFB a Province and then get it back, is this really that strong? I mean, if your opponent also has a Charter (A), you'd have to make sure you trash your Province and gain it back this turn to make sure your opponent doesn't get it. But, most TFB and remodel cards are terminal, which would require a village, and now you're talking about setting up an engine to get the combo played. It sounds a lot more like some very reasonable mega-turn combos than a broken interaction to me, but maybe playtesting would show differently.

Charter (A) would not be significantly worse than Junk Dealer.  JD forces you to trash a card from your hand.  Charter pretends to force you to trash a card from your deck, except it optionally lets you discard it.  Moreover, sometimes it lets you trash and then gain something better!  At its worse, it is a cantrip.  That means it pretty much never hurts to have it in you deck.  JD, OTOH, can actually run out of fodder and become dead.  At $5 JD is probably usually stronger than $5 Charter, but $4 Charter is just too good when you factor in the tricks that it can pull off.

On the cost restriction -- the lower end is less important, sure.  Without it, you can really abuse Embargo, but that's probably the only issue.  The reason why it was originally introduced was to prevent the retrieval of Madman, but Madman doesn't trash itself now.

On the upper end -- if it was only a combo with your personal TfB, that's kind of cute and fun.  But the thing is, being able to gain Provinces from the trash discourages other existing cute tricks.  Maybe I'll want to Salvage my Provinces to try to end the game quickly while I have the lead... but if Charter is in the game and I don't have a way to play Charter after, I can't risk you stealing that Province.  So it mitigates options.  The strength isn't in the possibility of me gaining my own Province, but in you gaining the Province I sacrificed.

But that's not all.  There are also games where Saboteur and Swindler can trash Colonies and Provinces.  Charter makes these games even swingier -- now there's not only the chance of me losing a high VP card, there's also a chance that another player swoops in and scoops it out of the trash, just from their own good luck that they drew Charter after my bad luck.  This is a 20 point swing that can happen from a $3 card and a $4 card.  Villages aren't even needed -- if I trash your Colony, then you're out of luck if you don't already have Charter in your hand but I draw it in my next one.  And even if you have Charter, you could still get unlucky if Charter itself trashes another Colony.

It might not be a broken interaction, but it has the potential to be extremely unfun.  Possession-Amb/Masq can cause similar VP swings, but at least in this case one of the cards is extremely expensive and you have to Amb me an Amb or Masq me a Masq for you to guarantee even a chance of pulling it off.  Charter stealing Province and Colony does not require as much effort.  It just requires some swingy luck.

Thanks for your thoughts! These are the types of conversations I was hoping could come out of deeper analysis.

First of all, I still don't think Charter (A) is as good as Junk Dealer. I basically agree with LastFootnote above: you don't get +$1 and don't get to choose what to trash, which will make it a lot slower to trash your starting cards. Maybe the +$1 is made up for by the fact by trashing not coming from your hand, but it still doesn't mitigate the untargeted nature of Charter (A).

About a possible upper limit: I guess I can see your concerns, but still don't think its necessary. Most of the things you point out seem like they should be more strategic considerations, not obvious brokenness. For example, if Charter (A) is on the board, then maybe think twice about going for a Salvage-your-Provinces strategy, yeah? I think this type of card interaction and Rock-Paper-Scissors is really interesting!

As for Saboteur and Swindler: well, they're swingy anyway. I concede that the combo could lead to bad situations.


If there is a limit of max $6 taken from the trash, I would recommend the same limit be imposed for cards trashed from the top of the deck in order to take late-game swingyness out of the card. Otherwise, you really can't play this once you've bought a Province.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2013, 04:56:16 pm by LastFootnote »
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market squire

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #3: Dark Ages
« Reply #158 on: September 24, 2013, 04:51:12 pm »
0

Quote
Cultivate
Types: Action – Victory
Cost: $5
+1 Action. Choose one: Trash a Victory card from your hand and gain a Treasure card costing up to $1 more; or trash a Treasure card from your hand and gain a Victory card costing up to $2 more.

This is worth 3 VP if there are at least 4 differently named Victory cards in the trash; otherwise it's worth 1 VP.
It is a nice simple concept to deal with the $1/$2 cost difference oft he Treasure and Victory cards. The VP condition is relative to Trade route or City – normally the player with most Cultivates has to trash a Province for Gold to get the 3 VPs. Nice idea, but I don’t think it is very exciting.
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Cemetery
Types: Victory
Cost: $5
Worth 2 VP plus 1 VP for every 2 differently named Action cards in the trash.

When you gain this, trash a card from your hand other than a Cemetery.
Another interesting VP card - a bit like Rats, since it turns another card into a Cemetery. Want to play this with Knights and Death Cart. I like it, but it always needs a combo card.
Quote
Patrol
Types: Action – Reaction
Cost: $3
Discard any number of cards. Draw until you have 5 cards in hand.

When you discard a card from your hand other than during a Clean-up phase, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, either trash that card, or put it on top of your deck.
Discard reaction! Very interesting, but I think it is too strong. Kills all discard attacks.
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Tribal Man
Types: Action
Cost: $5
Gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile. Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal an Action card. Choose one: Put the card into your hand; or play the Action, trash it, and gain a card costing less than it.

When you trash this, gain an Action card costing at most $5 that is not a Tribal Man.
Procession/ Golem variant. I am a fan of those cards but I think this one is a bit too complex. Maybe just cut away the spoils and make it a $4? Anyway, the possibility to play the action normally makes it very interesting.
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Carpenter
Types: Action
Cost: $5
Trash a card from your hand and gain a cheaper card, putting it into your hand. +$ equal to the cost in coins of the gained card.

When you trash this during your Action phase, +1 Action.
Basically Stonemason's action, but instead of the second copy you get +$. +1 Action on-trash looks fun, too. I think I like it.
Quote
King of the Slums
Types: Action – Looter
Cost: $5
Look at the top 3 cards of the Ruins pile. Gain any number of them, putting them into your hand. Put the rest back in any order. Choose up to 3 Ruins from your hand. Play the first one three times, the second one twice, and the third one once.
This one looks fun. It could be +5 Cards, +1 Action (i.e. 4 Labs), but you get a ruined deck. Maybe it is a bit too crazy.
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Smelter (A)
Types: Action – Reaction
Cost: $3
+1 Action. Trash a card from your hand. Gain a card of equal cost, putting it on top of your deck.

When you would gain a Silver, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, instead, gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile.
I think the Action is too weak, it reduces the handsize by 2. It can't get sticked on +1 Card because you could empty the Provinces too fast with that. Maybe +1$?
The Reaction is great.
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Heretic
Types: Action – Reaction
Cost: $5
Trash a card from your hand. Choose one: +1 Card per $ it costs; or +$ equal to its cost.

When one of your cards is trashed, you may trash this from your hand. If you do, put the trashed card into your hand.
Very good idea, but maybe it would also work at $4.
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Bargain
Types: Reaction
Cost: $1
When you would gain a card, you may discard this. If you do, instead, gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it.
This one reminds me of my Hinterlands card, Courier (A). The effect sounds funny that you can gain a $5 cost with your Workshop. But that's not worth it, especially since it costs 1$ itself. I don't think Bargain has much to do with Dark Ages.
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Garrison
Types: Action – Reaction
Cost: $3
Trash a card from your hand. For each $2 that it costs (rounded down), gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile.

When a player trashes a card, you may reveal this from your hand and gain the trashed card. If you do, discard this.

Clarification: If multiple players reveal a Garrison, the Garrison of the player who trashed the card gets resolved first, the other players follow in turn order. Later players can't gain the card due to losing track; Garrison can only gain the card if it is still in the trash.
Changes the feeling of trashing. Maybe it would work at $2, too.
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Danse Macabre
Types: Action
Cost: $4
You may play an Action from your hand for none of its effects. If you do, +4 Cards and +1 Action.

When you buy this, trash it.

When you trash this, gain 2 cheaper cards of different costs.
So you can open with Danse Macabre to get a 2/3/3 start (on two turns). Once you actually gained the card, it is a Stables for Actions. I wonder if “none of its effects” includes in-play effects. I think Danse Macabre can delete the cantrip effect of Highway, but not the in-play effect since it is “in play”.
It is a weird card, but it is not “wordy”. So I like it very much.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #3: Dark Ages
« Reply #159 on: September 24, 2013, 04:53:48 pm »
0

Charter (A) would not be significantly worse than Junk Dealer.  JD forces you to trash a card from your hand.  Charter pretends to force you to trash a card from your deck, except it optionally lets you discard it.  Moreover, sometimes it lets you trash and then gain something better!  At its worse, it is a cantrip.  That means it pretty much never hurts to have it in you deck.  JD, OTOH, can actually run out of fodder and become dead.  At $5 JD is probably usually stronger than $5 Charter, but $4 Charter is just too good when you factor in the tricks that it can pull off.

lolwut? Are you just purposefully ignoring that Junk Dealer gives +$1 and gives you a choice of what gets trashed? The fact that it may eventually become a dead card is not a big deal. It's still way better than Charter (A) in almost all circumstances. I agree that the gain should be capped at $6, though.

Not ignoring it.  Charter (A) is always safe, which means you can safely get multiple copies of it.  For the purposes of quickly slimming down, I think it matches and possibly exceeds Junk Dealer, and its ability to gain other trashed cards also gives it an advantage.  I agree that Junk Dealer is better, but I don't think it is significantly so.

It may be safe to get multiple copies of it, but there's still a large opportunity cost to doing so. The thing is that in order for Charter to gain cool cards from the trash, it needs help from other cards. That sort of conditional ability, where you have to work to make it activate or others have to help you activate it, can be on a cheap card. Think Menagerie or Conspirator.

It's hard for me not to compare this card to my own cantrip-blindly-trash-the-top-card-of-your-deck-but-not-really card, Gambler.

Gambler
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+1 Card. +1 Action. Look at the top card of your deck and choose one: Trash that card; or put that card into your hand and trash this.

So instead of just discarding a good card you hit, you put it into your hand but also trash the Gambler. Gambler is a card that we've playtested a lot and it's always seemed fine (at $3, no less). Granted, there are major differences between Gambler and Charter, and I've never tried to simply rush Gamblers, but I doubt it would be a smart move.

Charter just doesn't seem that much more powerful, and when it is, it's because of neat combos on the board. I think I'd probably almost never buy it at $5, but $4 seems reasonable. It does have the problem that either it can gain Provinces from the trash or you're afraid to play it because it could trash your Provinces, depending on whether or not it has the $6 cap. I'm on the fence about it because of that. But as far as its power as a trasher, I think $4 is very reasonable.
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WrathOfGlod

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #3: Dark Ages
« Reply #160 on: September 24, 2013, 05:42:29 pm »
+1

I might be wrong here but Charter (A) seems like it would immediately be one of the 2 or 3 most powerful cards in the game (I think rebuild is still ahead of it).
1. Early on you have cantrip trashing which alone is worth $5 (trashing while keeping a 5 card hand probably makes it equivalent in power to upgrade or junk dealer)
2. Late in the game you have absolutely safe trashing which needs no collision, the reason you can't mass upgrade or junk dealer or rats is that you run out of targets and they become dead cards
3. The self interaction is insane, if a charter turns up a charter then it becomes at least as good as +3 cards +1 action.

I'm fairly sure that winning the charter split would be at least as good as winning the minion split and possibly better.
 
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eHalcyon

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #3: Dark Ages
« Reply #161 on: September 24, 2013, 05:57:05 pm »
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Thanks for your thoughts! These are the types of conversations I was hoping could come out of deeper analysis.

First of all, I still don't think Charter (A) is as good as Junk Dealer. I basically agree with LastFootnote above: you don't get +$1 and don't get to choose what to trash, which will make it a lot slower to trash your starting cards. Maybe the +$1 is made up for by the fact by trashing not coming from your hand, but it still doesn't mitigate the untargeted nature of Charter (A).

About a possible upper limit: I guess I can see your concerns, but still don't think its necessary. Most of the things you point out seem like they should be more strategic considerations, not obvious brokenness. For example, if Charter (A) is on the board, then maybe think twice about going for a Salvage-your-Provinces strategy, yeah? I think this type of card interaction and Rock-Paper-Scissors is really interesting!

As for Saboteur and Swindler: well, they're swingy anyway. I concede that the combo could lead to bad situations.


If there is a limit of max $6 taken from the trash, I would recommend the same limit be imposed for cards trashed from the top of the deck in order to take late-game swingyness out of the card. Otherwise, you really can't play this once you've bought a Province.

I think you both misunderstood my comparison.  I think Junk Dealer is certainly stronger.  But Charter (A) as it is looks too good for $4 to me.  You both seem to be considering playing Charter (A) in the same way as JD, in which case of course JD wins out.  But with Charter (A) you are pretty free to get multiples and trim your deck very easily, and it won't even cost you a card in hand.  Yes there is some opportunity cost in getting them, but there are often ways to do it fairly painlessly and the trimmed deck is often worth it.

Yeah Sab and Swindler are swingy.  They rae swingy enough, there really shouldn't be a spammable cantrip that makes them even swingier.

With a $6 cap on cards it can gain, then it's more reasonable to me.  You are incorrect that you can't play it after you've bought a Province.  You certainly can -- it's just risky.  It's like Lookout that way.  You can still play it if you know your Provinces are already past, or if you've done some Spying or something.  This is a reasonable weakness for the card to have.  And if you find that you don't want to take that risk... is that really so bad?  The same thing happens with Lookout, and sometimes even with JD, Upgrade and Masquerade.


It may be safe to get multiple copies of it, but there's still a large opportunity cost to doing so. The thing is that in order for Charter to gain cool cards from the trash, it needs help from other cards. That sort of conditional ability, where you have to work to make it activate or others have to help you activate it, can be on a cheap card. Think Menagerie or Conspirator.

It's hard for me not to compare this card to my own cantrip-blindly-trash-the-top-card-of-your-deck-but-not-really card, Gambler.

Gambler
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+1 Card. +1 Action. Look at the top card of your deck and choose one: Trash that card; or put that card into your hand and trash this.

So instead of just discarding a good card you hit, you put it into your hand but also trash the Gambler. Gambler is a card that we've playtested a lot and it's always seemed fine (at $3, no less). Granted, there are major differences between Gambler and Charter, and I've never tried to simply rush Gamblers, but I doubt it would be a smart move.

Charter just doesn't seem that much more powerful, and when it is, it's because of neat combos on the board. I think I'd probably almost never buy it at $5, but $4 seems reasonable. It does have the problem that either it can gain Provinces from the trash or you're afraid to play it because it could trash your Provinces, depending on whether or not it has the $6 cap. I'm on the fence about it because of that. But as far as its power as a trasher, I think $4 is very reasonable.

I don't think the opportunity cost is big enough to justify it though.  Yeah it requires something else to gain good stuff from the trash, but it's not that difficult to make happen.  Knights, Rogue, Swindler, Sab, Rebuild, Graverobber and all manners of TfB, Pillage and other one-shots...

My problem isn't that this gain-from-trash is too strong.  It's just that it's strong with another strong ability (essentially optional trashing outside of your hand) on a completely safe (cantrip) card that is at a spammable price point.  Menagerie and Conspirator both take a lot more effort to activate, whereas this will hit quite consistently early on (for the trashing) with potential for crazy tricks later.

Your Gambler is much, much more reasonable.  It has far more opportunity cost in that you may end up having to trash the Gambler to save a Province.  That's cool.  And it also doesn't have any of those scary swingy Colony-stealing combos with Swindler and Sab.

With a $6 cap on the gain, I think it is reasonable at $4.  Still a strong trasher, but you can't overload on them because they would (usually) become liabilities later.  Sometimes they are still very strong (e.g. non-green games such as with Goons), but that would be fine.
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Robz888

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #3: Dark Ages
« Reply #162 on: September 24, 2013, 06:30:30 pm »
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Quote
Sacrifice
Types: Action
Cost: $5
Trash a card from your hand. If you do, +$2 and gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile.

Reasonable. Well, pretty strong, but terminal.


Quote
King of the Slums
Types: Action – Looter
Cost: $5
Look at the top 3 cards of the Ruins pile. Gain any number of them, putting them into your hand. Put the rest back in any order. Choose up to 3 Ruins from your hand. Play the first one three times, the second one twice, and the third one once.

Huh. Well, that's sort of novel. Really hard to tell whether it's bad or too good or what. It might be fine. It's interesting. I doubt it's broken, but it may need a different cost.


Quote
Astral Conqueror
Types: Action – Attack – Looter
Cost: $5
+$2. Each other player gains a Curse and a Ruins Each other player gains a Spoils from the Spoils pile. This cannot cause a player to gain the last Curse or Ruins in the Supply.

Too powerful, and the game ends super fast, and not fun. And I don't like the name, it's too Magic-esque.


Quote
Smelter (A)
Types: Action – Reaction
Cost: $3
+1 Action. Trash a card from your hand. Gain a card of equal cost, putting it on top of your deck.

When you would gain a Silver, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, instead, gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile.

Totally fine card. Not the most exciting, but well designed, I think.


Quote
Junkyard (B)
Types: Action – Victory
Cost: $5
Choose one: Trash a card from your hand; gain up to 2 cards from the trash with a total cost of up to $5 and trash this.

Worth 1 VP for every 3 Victory cards in the trash.

I just don't like "worth VP per something something trash" cards. The top is fine but meh.


Quote
Alehouse
Types: Action
Cost: $3
When you trash a card this turn, +1 Action, discard a card, +1 Card, and you may gain a card costing less than the trashed card. Trash a card from your hand or from play.

At first I said, "this is insanely good," but then I realize it's backward deliberately, in order to weaken it. Frankly, I hate this card (no offense). It's trying too hard, you know what I mean?


Quote
Ignoble Brigand
Types: Action – Attack – Looter
Cost: $4
+$1. You may trash a Treasure from your hand. Each other player may discard a Treasure. If he doesn't, he gains a Ruins.

Just kind of boring.


Quote
Junkyard (C)
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Trash a card from your hand. Gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it, putting it into your hand.

When you trash this, trash a card from your hand. Gain a card costing exactly $1 less than it.

The extra part feels tacked on to me.


Quote
Heretic
Types: Action – Reaction
Cost: $5
Trash a card from your hand. Choose one: +1 Card per $ it costs; or +$ equal to its cost.

When one of your cards is trashed, you may trash this from your hand. If you do, put the trashed card into your hand.

Uh, this is like that other one, right? I don't know, I liked the other one more, for some reason. The bottom part is already covered by Fortress.


Quote
Iron Maiden
Types: Action – Attack – Looter
Cost: $4
+$2. Each other player with 5 or more cards in hand discards a card. If it is an…
Action card, he gains a Copper; Treasure card, he gains a Ruins; Victory card, he gains a Curse. He puts the gained card into his hand.

When you trash this, you may trash up to 2 cards from your hand.

And you cost this at $4???!!!! Um, hell no.


Quote
Satan's Workshop
Types: Action – Attack
Cost: $5
Gain a card costing up to the number of Fire tokens in your Satan Pit. Each other player may reveal a hand with 2 or fewer Treasures. If nobody does, put a Fire token in your Satan Pit. Each other player gains a Copper, putting it into his hand.

When you would trash this, set it aside. If you do, at the beginning of your next Buy phase, +1 Buy, +$1 per token in your Satan Pit, and put this into the trash.

Setup: Each player puts 2 Fire tokens in his Satan Pit.

It's just too much stuff for something that isn't very exciting.
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AJD

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #3: Dark Ages
« Reply #163 on: September 24, 2013, 07:44:55 pm »
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On the cost restriction -- the lower end is less important, sure.  Without it, you can really abuse Embargo, but that's probably the only issue.  The reason why it was originally introduced was to prevent the retrieval of Madman, but Madman doesn't trash itself now.

Oh, really? I thought it was so Rogue could still attack instead of gain if there were just a bunch of Coppers and stuff in the trash.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #3: Dark Ages
« Reply #164 on: September 24, 2013, 07:52:07 pm »
+1

On the cost restriction -- the lower end is less important, sure.  Without it, you can really abuse Embargo, but that's probably the only issue.  The reason why it was originally introduced was to prevent the retrieval of Madman, but Madman doesn't trash itself now.

Oh, really? I thought it was so Rogue could still attack instead of gain if there were just a bunch of Coppers and stuff in the trash.

Mm, that makes sense for Rogue.  The Secret Histories do mention Madman as a reason though.  But I guess there are numerous reasons.

Quote
When the top-card-trashing attacks all died their deserved deaths, I had to find a way to fix up the Knights. I settled on trashing cards in the range $3-$6. I tried other ranges, man, don't think I didn't. If the lower limit is $4, you always buy Silver over $4's, which makes the game less fun. If the top limit is $5, you always buy Gold over $5's, which makes the game less fun. $3-$6 is the range that does not actually stop you from building a deck with actions, while not helping your opponents by trashing junk, and not being so swingy as to trash Provinces. I could have gone $3-$7 but decided to let the $7's be excitingly immune to Knights.

Quote
Graverobber: It's obvious that you could make a card that gets cards from the trash. What's not obbvious is that it will end up looking like this. There was just a straight line that led from the idea to the final card though. It had to provide a way to get good cards into the trash, so that it wouldn't just stare at an empty trash, or a trash full of Coppers and Estates. So, it's a Remodel. Furthermore it's a Remodel that likes to trash actions that cost $5, which is just the kind of thing you're happy getting from the trash. In games where Provinces end up trashed, such as via other Remodels, it's way too good to be able to gain them with Graverobbers, so you can't. It also can't get cheap cards, which was to stop you from getting Madman (a combo we first suffered through for a while). I later changed Madman to not go to the trash, but kept Graverobber at $3 to $6, because that makes things a little easier - you keep one pile of real trash and one pile of good trash - and it meant I could safely do other non-supply $0* cards in the future without worrying about Graverobber, if somehow that comes up.

...

Madman originally was trashed. I switched it to going back to the pile as part of my ruthless weeding out of the Graverobber / Madman combo.

So for trashing as an attack, you want the lower bound.  For gaining from the trash, the upper bound matters.  On Rogue, I suppose the lower bound is important as well because it's a forced gain, but I'm not sure that was in the design process.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2013, 07:54:15 pm by eHalcyon »
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Schneau

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #3: Dark Ages
« Reply #165 on: September 24, 2013, 08:28:16 pm »
+1

Since I didn't feature a card yesterday, here's a bonus Tuesday Evening Card:

Quote
Patrol
Types: Action – Reaction
Cost: $3
Discard any number of cards. Draw until you have 5 cards in hand.

When you discard a card from your hand other than during a Clean-up phase, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, either trash that card, or put it on top of your deck.

Before reading others' comments:

This card is pretty simple, and I like it for that. The top seems so obvious, but I don't remember seeing it anywhere, including fan cards and Outtakes. I'm guessing it has been on some other fan card that I haven't seen or don't remember. It's obvious, but it's also interesting. It works much better with handsize reducers than its most similar cousins (Storeroom, Cellar, Vault, and Warehouse). It's probably most similar to Storeroom, but I think would play differently enough - for one reason, playing it from a 5-card hand gives one extra card draw, but doesn't give Storeroom's other bonuses.

The bottom of the card is something I've tried and liked before, except my version was a "while this is in play" and only offered trashing. I might advocate taking off the top-decking option, both to simplify the card as well as avoid some potential weird situations. Either way, I like it. Would two of these make for too strong of trashing? Probably not, but could be fun to try!

After reading others' comments:
This has some open questions rules-wise. Let's say you have Cellar and Patrol in your hand. You play Cellar and discard three cards and reveal Patrol. Do you top-deck or trash all three cards, or just one of them?
I know you're a stickler for rules like this, but I see no reason this needs to be a big deal. Two Tunnels can be redeemed when discarded simultaneously. I think the card wouldn't confuse normal players, and with a clarification in the rules, shouldn't pose any problems. I really don't get all the discussion -- stick this in front of a casual-to-intermediate player, and they'll surely understand that you can reveal it to trash multiple cards discarded by Cellar.

I'm unsure about power issues of this card, but they definitely don't feel unfixable by tweaking cost/number of cards to draw to/whether it can topdeck on reaction.

The other critique I'd like to address is that it doesn't feel very Dark Ages-y. I have to somewhat agree here - the most Dark Ages part is the reaction. But, it's more flavorful than other Dark Ages cards, such as Sage, Ironmonger, and Scavenger. They can't all be Rats (well, unless you're LordBottington).

Overall: This isn't my favorite card submitted, but I like it quite a bit, and would be happy to see it in the expansion. It's interesting without being crazy, which is nice!
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SirPeebles

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #3: Dark Ages
« Reply #166 on: September 24, 2013, 08:54:31 pm »
0

Since I didn't feature a card yesterday, here's a bonus Tuesday Evening Card:

Quote
Patrol
Types: Action – Reaction
Cost: $3
Discard any number of cards. Draw until you have 5 cards in hand.

When you discard a card from your hand other than during a Clean-up phase, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, either trash that card, or put it on top of your deck.

After reading others' comments:
This has some open questions rules-wise. Let's say you have Cellar and Patrol in your hand. You play Cellar and discard three cards and reveal Patrol. Do you top-deck or trash all three cards, or just one of them?
I know you're a stickler for rules like this, but I see no reason this needs to be a big deal. Two Tunnels can be redeemed when discarded simultaneously. I think the card wouldn't confuse normal players, and with a clarification in the rules, shouldn't pose any problems. I really don't get all the discussion -- stick this in front of a casual-to-intermediate player, and they'll surely understand that you can reveal it to trash multiple cards discarded by Cellar.

It is quite evident to me that you can reveal this reaction all you want, but the only card which can be moved to the trash is the one of top of your discard pile.  However, I think you are probably correct that the intent was that any could be trashed.  So I would propose changing it to "when you would discard a card... trash the card instead."  The Tunnel thing is unrelated, by the way, since Tunnel does not move itself and therefore the Lose Track rule is not relevant.  It is an easy fix, so it shouldn't deter anyone from voting for this card.
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markusin

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #3: Dark Ages
« Reply #167 on: September 24, 2013, 10:31:27 pm »
0

Maybe I should have commented on all the cards at once, but this sectioning off of posts seems better.

Somehow, there appears to be even less agreement this time around.

Quote
Priestcraft
Types: Action – Attack
Cost: $5
+$2. Choose one: Trash a card from your hand; or choose a card in the trash and each other player gains a copy of that card, putting it on top of his deck.
This is terrifying with a single Curse in the trash. It becomes a SuperSea Hag for $5 that benefits you directly and can stack multiple curses on top of the deck of your opponents. And yeah, the political ruins thing too, I guess.

Quote
Miser
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Choose two: +$2; gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile; gain a Silver. (The choices must be different.)
I do agree that this smokes Explorer, but that's nothing a a balance adjustment can't fix. Or maybe, this is balanced and Explorer is just that weak. It's good, but does it belong in Dark Ages?

Quote
Charter (A)
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Card. +1 Action. Trash the top card of your deck. You may gain a card from the trash.

When you trash this, +2 Cards.
Way better than Spy, but Spy ain't so great, so that's okay. It's awesome when it hits another Charter, but if you've used Herald, then you'd know that kind of collision doesn't just happen on it's own. The restrictive top-deck trashing lets this pass balance-wise, I think.

Quote
Robber Baron
Types: Action – Attack – Looter
Cost: $4
You may discard a Ruins. If you do, +$3 and each other player discards down to 3 cards in hand. Otherwise, gain a Ruins.

When you gain this, gain 2 Ruins.
Baron is fun, right? This merges Baron with Death Cart. Upon comparison
to Militia, this looks like it's best used as a defense against other looters. Perhaps this should just give $4? Seriously, this looks way worse than Militia.

Quote
Sacrifice
Types: Action
Cost: $5
Trash a card from your hand. If you do, +$2 and gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile.
Altar's other half. Simple, but in a refreshing way.

Quote
King of the Slums
Types: Action – Looter
Cost: $5
Look at the top 3 cards of the Ruins pile. Gain any number of them, putting them into your hand. Put the rest back in any order. Choose up to 3 Ruins from your hand. Play the first one three times, the second one twice, and the third one once.
Seems, uh, strong right now. I'm still not sure why Donald got rid of the ruins playing cards he tried out. Such a card might be entertaining in the end. Wording wise, this should get rid of the first-second-third notation and just say something like "play one of the 3 three times, play another one twice, and the last one once". 

Quote
Astral Conqueror
Types: Action – Attack – Looter
Cost: $5
+$2. Each other player gains a Curse and a Ruins Each other player gains a Spoils from the Spoils pile. This cannot cause a player to gain the last Curse or Ruins in the Supply.
I agree that this slogs up the game so badly."last player" should just be "any player", no?

Quote
Smelter (A)
Types: Action – Reaction
Cost: $3
+1 Action. Trash a card from your hand. Gain a card of equal cost, putting it on top of your deck.

When you would gain a Silver, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, instead, gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile.
I like this one. This lets you gain spoils over silver when you'd prefer Spoils. That effect is meaningful with gainers. Can this trash a silver to top-deck a Spoils, or is this an Ironworks/Trader blue dog thing?

Quote
Junkyard (B)
Types: Action – Victory
Cost: $5
Choose one: Trash a card from your hand; gain up to 2 cards from the trash with a total cost of up to $5 and trash this.

Worth 1 VP for every 3 Victory cards in the trash.
Like with Cemetery above, you're just helping everyone by trashing VP cards. Or, you're undoing your opponent's efforts by removing Duchies and Estates from there. At least they got to trash stuff.

Quote
Alehouse
Types: Action
Cost: $3
When you trash a card this turn, +1 Action, discard a card, +1 Card, and you may gain a card costing less than the trashed card. Trash a card from your hand or from play.
Turns every trasher into a non-terminal, sifting trasher, or sifting village, or super village in the case of Chapel, Right? If you 4 trash cards simultaneously with Chapel, do you get the benefit 4 times?

Quote
Ignoble Brigand
Types: Action – Attack – Looter
Cost: $4
+$1. You may trash a Treasure from your hand. Each other player may discard a Treasure. If he doesn't, he gains a Ruins.
I really like this one. A player on the receiving end of this may still be willing to take a ruins if it means he or she also gets a gold, because ruins aren't THAT bad. The trashing that the attacker gets may be good enough bonus to make this competitive.

Quote
Junkyard (C)
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Trash a card from your hand. Gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it, putting it into your hand.

When you trash this, trash a card from your hand. Gain a card costing exactly $1 less than it.
So you can more-or-less use this to develop another copy of this. That's neat. I dig it.

Quote
Heretic
Types: Action – Reaction
Cost: $5
Trash a card from your hand. Choose one: +1 Card per $ it costs; or +$ equal to its cost.

When one of your cards is trashed, you may trash this from your hand. If you do, put the trashed card into your hand.
An Apprentice/Salvager hybrid. With 2 copies of these, you can trash a Province for high payload and keep the Province. I'd be happy to use this a bunch in DA heavy games.

Quote
Iron Maiden
Types: Action – Attack – Looter
Cost: $4
+$2. Each other player with 5 or more cards in hand discards a card. If it is an…
Action card, he gains a Copper; Treasure card, he gains a Ruins; Victory card, he gains a Curse. He puts the gained card into his hand.

When you trash this, you may trash up to 2 cards from your hand.
Powerful, but not too powerful, I don't think, with the card going into the hand. As mentioned before, it can be block by discarding a curse like you can for Mountebank. It's even better here because it keeps you safe from all future Iron Maiden attacks until your next turn. Alright!

Quote
Satan's Workshop
Types: Action – Attack
Cost: $5
Gain a card costing up to the number of Fire tokens in your Satan Pit. Each other player may reveal a hand with 2 or fewer Treasures. If nobody does, put a Fire token in your Satan Pit. Each other player gains a Copper, putting it into his hand.

When you would trash this, set it aside. If you do, at the beginning of your next Buy phase, +1 Buy, +$1 per token in your Satan Pit, and put this into the trash.

Setup: Each player puts 2 Fire tokens in his Satan Pit.
I get that each player has to take a Copper for this to work, but that also leads to second-third-fourth player advantage, where your play of it gives you no tokens, but gives the next person to play it a token.

Quote
Bargain
Types: Reaction
Cost: $1
When you would gain a card, you may discard this. If you do, instead, gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it.
...Do I know you from somewhere. Good with gainers and tfb-gainers, and yay it costs $1 like those other DA cards. Somehow, it manages to charm me. I play a Rats and then reveal this to get a Lab instead of a Rats.

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Soldier
Types: Action – Attack
Cost: $3
+1 Card. +1 Action. Each player trashes a Copper card from his hand (or reveals a hand without Copper). You may trash this. If you do, gain a Mercenary from the Mercenary pile if there are 4 or more Treasues in the trash; or gain a Madman from the Madman pile if there are 2 or more Soldiers in the trash.

Clarification: If there are 4 Treasures and 2 Soldiers in the trash, you choose whether to gain a Mercenary or a Madman.
Do I want a Badass, or a PTSD psycho. Both options seem good.

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Archaeologist
Types: Action – Looter
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. You may trash the top card of the Ruins pile.

While this card is in play, when you play an Action card, play a copy of the top card of the Ruins pile.
I thought this was Hatter when I first read it. Wording issues aside, this can be absurd with the right ruins on top, but then this is countered by itself. Another player can just use these to empty the ruins pile. Interesting.

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Stronghold
Types: Victory
Cost: $6
Worth 1 VP for every 2 Spoils in your deck (rounded down).

When you gain this, gain 3 Spoils from the Spoils pile.
The VP part seems really weak, though the gaining 3 spoils thing has some value under the right circumstance

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Garrison
Types: Action – Reaction
Cost: $3
Trash a card from your hand. For each $2 that it costs (rounded down), gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile.

When a player trashes a card, you may reveal this from your hand and gain the trashed card. If you do, discard this.

Clarification: If multiple players reveal a Garrison, the Garrison of the player who trashed the card gets resolved first, the other players follow in turn order. Later players can't gain the card due to losing track; Garrison can only gain the card if it is still in the trash.
Don't trash that Province with Salvager! Though perhaps one of the most evil cards I've seen (it can steal Fortresses) I like its possible interactions with other DA cards. However, others have pointed out how bad this can be for gameplay. That's a shame.

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Raid
Types: Action – Looter
Cost: $3
Choose one: Play and trash up to 2 Action cards from your hand; or gain any number of Action cards from the trash costing up to $3 and play them in any order.

When you trash this, each other player gains a Ruins.
The on-play seems good, but it's nature isn't so good for activating the on-trash effect of this, since these stack poorly. But, there are other ways to trash cards, and it doesn't need the on trash at all to work.

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Surveyor
Types: Action – Reaction
Cost: $4
+1 Action. You may trash a Victory card from your hand. If you do, gain two Treasures each costing exactly $1 more than it, putting one on top of your deck.

When another player buys a Victory card, you may set this aside from your hand. If you do, at the start of your next turn, return this to your hand and gain an Estate, putting it into your hand.
Similar to Cultivate, but it works one way and gets you 2 treasures. Has a neat little reaction to help it along, too.

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Smelter (B)
Types: Action – Reaction
Cost: $3
You may trash a card from your hand. If you trash an… Action card, +2 Actions; Treasure card, +$2; Victory card, +2 Cards.

When you trash a card you may discard this from your hand. If you go, gain a card costing less than the trashed card.
A slow trasher, but it has a reaction that synergizes with other Smelters. I find it decent.

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Condottiero
Types: Action – Attack – Looter
Cost: $4
+2 Buys. +$2. Each player (including you) may discard a Treasure. If he does, he puts his deck into his discard pile and immediately reshuffles. Each other player gains a Ruins.


Clarification: Each other player gaining a Ruins is not contingent on whether or not he discards; it just always happens after the discard and shuffling effects.
When you trash this, look through your discard pile. You may trash up to 2 cards from your discard pile or hand.
It adds the universal Chancellor effect option to soften the blow. it should benefit the attacker more than Marauder, so this is very strong. It could work, though.

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Angry Mob
Types: Action – Attack – Looter
Cost: $4
+1 Action. +1 Buy. Each player gains a Ruins, putting it into his hand.

While this is in play, when you buy a Ruins, you may trash this. If you do, gain a Mob Boss from the Mob Boss pile.

Mob Boss
Types: Action
Cost: $0*
+1 Buy. Reveal your hand. For each Ruins revealed, +1 Card and +$1. You may return a Ruins from your hand to the Supply. If you do, +1 Action. (This is not in the Supply.)
That Mob Boss is really neat, though too easy to get. You'll want that extra ruins once you have the Boss, and everyone can easily get a Boss of their own (well, not if there is only 5). So, Angry Mob is more of a fun game changer than an attack.

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Charter (B)
Types: Treasure – Attack – Looter
Cost: $5
Worth $2. When you play this, each other player gains a Ruins, putting it into his hand.
That's one mean charter! A straightforward attack that makes use of Ruins junking to become non-terminal. A decent balance twist on a junker.

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Danse Macabre
Types: Action
Cost: $4
You may play an Action from your hand for none of its effects. If you do, +4 Cards and +1 Action.

When you buy this, trash it.

When you trash this, gain 2 cheaper cards of different costs.
You can't even gain this without a gainer. And can you even trash a card before gaining it? When you can get it in your deck, it's just so strong, turning itself and another action card (even a Ruins or the gainer you used to get it) into a Lab. That random trash effect isn't worth having an awkward second horizontal line for, but others have suggested wording tweaks.

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Garderobe
Types: Action – Looter
Cost: $2
+1 Action. +$2. Gain a Ruins, putting it into your hand. You may play an Action card from your hand costing up to $3.
How strong/weak is this? Either way, I find it quite interesting.

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Drug
Types: Action – Victory – Looter
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. +$1. You may gain a Ruins. If you do, +1 Card. You may gain a Ruins. If you do, +1 Action.

Worth –3 VP if every other player has fewer Ruins than you.
Ruins-Hamlet. Adds another layer of strategy to the game, and it's a fine one too. Everyone loves Ruins, or at least they want to love Ruins. Why can't Ruins just stay bad for the rest of Dominion's days?

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Street Sweeper
Types: Action – Looter
Cost: $4
+2 Cards. +1 Action. Trash a card.

When you trash this, gain a Ruins.
Even if this costed $5 and discarded first, it would still be way stronger than Junk Dealer,and Junk Dealer is already so good. +1 card is just going to be better than +$1 on a non-terminal most of the time. Naturally, you use this like you would Junk Dealer, not like you would Lab. With that in mind, the on-trash penalty is nothing to really be concerned about.

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Blood Feud
Types:
Action – Attack – Looter
Cost: $4
Choose one: +1 Action, +$1, and each player (including you) gains a Ruins, putting it in his hand; or reveal up to 3 cards from your hand, play the revealed Action cards in any order, then trash all the revealed cards.
Hehe, this one looks so cool. They work well together when they collide too; The first one puts a Ruins in your hand, and the second one trashes it. Playing Procession with this sounds like something I'd like to try, though that might just end in a big mess.

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Barrister
Types: Action – Attack
Cost: $5
+2 Cards. Each player (including you) reveals the top 2 cards of his deck; you may choose a revealed Treasure for him to trash. He discards the rest. You may gain a Treasure from the trash.

Setup: Replace one of each player's starting Coppers with a Claim.

Claim
Types: Treasure
Cost: $0
Worth $1. When you play this, look through your discard pile. You may trash a Claim from your discard pile or hand. If you do, gain a Gold, putting it into your hand.

Clarification: In a 6-player game, the starting player does not replace a Copper with a Claim.
So this fixes Thief, and introduces cute little Claims that can turn into Gold. That's nothing major. It's just a little extra something that adds to Barrister's charm.


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Mendicant
Types: Action – Looter
Cost: $2
+1 Card. +1 Action. Gain a Ruins, putting it into your hand. You may play any number of Ruins from your hand. If you played two or more, +1 Card.
Garderobe's cousin. May need some balancing work. Whether you like this or not all depends about how you feel about RtB (Ruiins for Benefit).
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GwinnR

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #3: Dark Ages
« Reply #168 on: September 25, 2013, 01:00:26 am »
0

When does the next round start? (Or do I oversee it?)
And could you please announce it here, so that we know it without searching for it?
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Watno

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #3: Dark Ages
« Reply #169 on: September 25, 2013, 05:55:59 am »
0

It is quite evident to me that you can reveal this reaction all you want, but the only card which can be moved to the trash is the one of top of your discard pile.  However, I think you are probably correct that the intent was that any could be trashed.  So I would propose changing it to "when you would discard a card... trash the card instead."  The Tunnel thing is unrelated, by the way, since Tunnel does not move itself and therefore the Lose Track rule is not relevant.  It is an easy fix, so it shouldn't deter anyone from voting for this card.

You reveal Tunnel. How would you reveal a card when you lost track of it?
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Asper

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #3: Dark Ages
« Reply #170 on: September 25, 2013, 08:22:09 am »
0

I haven't read all of them yet, but here are some things i noticed:
  • Many cards feel overly complex to me. Especially the themes "trash an action" and "get a card from the trash" seem overly present, often enough even combined.
  • Though not that simple either, i absolutely love the idea of Soldier. I didn't even think about whether it's balanced yet, but the idea that it can become both a Madman or a Mercenary is very cool. What i like most is how thematic the card is.
  • My card is different, but it's awesome, too.
  • I'm a bit disappointed by a certain card idea i knew would be at this contest. I feel a version that i made of it was better.

Coming back for more close reviews later.
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AJD

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #3: Dark Ages
« Reply #171 on: September 25, 2013, 08:53:41 am »
+1

It is quite evident to me that you can reveal this reaction all you want, but the only card which can be moved to the trash is the one of top of your discard pile.  However, I think you are probably correct that the intent was that any could be trashed.  So I would propose changing it to "when you would discard a card... trash the card instead."  The Tunnel thing is unrelated, by the way, since Tunnel does not move itself and therefore the Lose Track rule is not relevant.  It is an easy fix, so it shouldn't deter anyone from voting for this card.

You reveal Tunnel. How would you reveal a card when you lost track of it?

This is discussed in this thread. In short, the Lose-Track rule in the Dark Ages rule book simply doesn't say anything about revealing (rather than moving) cards, so even though Tunnel is lost track of for the purposes of the Lose-Track rule, you're still permitted to reveal it because the rules don't say you can't. This implies that even if you've literally lost track of where the Tunnel is, you're still permitted to reveal it, I guess, if you can find it; it's one of those cases (like Moneylender) where the game rules don't actually keep you honest.
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markusin

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #3: Dark Ages
« Reply #172 on: September 25, 2013, 10:17:16 am »
0

It is quite evident to me that you can reveal this reaction all you want, but the only card which can be moved to the trash is the one of top of your discard pile.  However, I think you are probably correct that the intent was that any could be trashed.  So I would propose changing it to "when you would discard a card... trash the card instead."  The Tunnel thing is unrelated, by the way, since Tunnel does not move itself and therefore the Lose Track rule is not relevant.  It is an easy fix, so it shouldn't deter anyone from voting for this card.

You reveal Tunnel. How would you reveal a card when you lost track of it?

This is discussed in this thread. In short, the Lose-Track rule in the Dark Ages rule book simply doesn't say anything about revealing (rather than moving) cards, so even though Tunnel is lost track of for the purposes of the Lose-Track rule, you're still permitted to reveal it because the rules don't say you can't. This implies that even if you've literally lost track of where the Tunnel is, you're still permitted to reveal it, I guess, if you can find it; it's one of those cases (like Moneylender) where the game rules don't actually keep you honest.
I always just assumed Tunnel is in About-To-Be-Discarded Land, where there is no covering up and nothing is lost track of, when you reveal it. I never read the Hinterlands rulebook, so I don't know when exactly a player reveals Tunnel.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #3: Dark Ages
« Reply #173 on: September 25, 2013, 10:43:39 am »
+4

A few quick things:

First, I am going to add a clarification to Patrol specifying that you can reveal it separately for each card discarded.

Second, the author of Junkyard (C) has asked me to remind people that when you trash it, you trash another card and gain a card costing $1 less than that one. Apparently there is some confusion where people think you are gaining a card costing $1 less than the Junkyard itself.

When does the next round start? (Or do I oversee it?)
And could you please announce it here, so that we know it without searching for it?

The next round is Seaside. I will be posting it later today.

I am now taking votes for the Dark Ages cards. Feel free to wait until the last minute, though. I encourage discussion.

That is all.
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Warfreak2

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #3: Dark Ages
« Reply #174 on: September 25, 2013, 10:59:50 am »
+1

As I understand it, Tunnel gets revealed en route to the discard pile, which means "when you discard" is not quite consistent with "when you play", "when you trash", &c., but is the only sensible option.
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If the only engine on the board is Procession->Conspirator, I will play it.
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