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Author Topic: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #3: Dark Ages  (Read 106525 times)

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WanderingWinder

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #3: Dark Ages
« Reply #125 on: September 23, 2013, 11:15:20 pm »
+6

So, ruins for benefit. This seems to be the theme everyone wants to try this week, and it's just not good. I guess I shouldn't be surprised, since it has more inherent pull than good curse cards, and those are VERY popular to design.
My problem with these, in general, is that they're basically impossible to balance. Now, they actually aren't totally so, and Death Cart sorta showed us this space a little. But making them HAVE to be ruins does not do you favors here.
Anyway, the essential problem is that junk is so bad, that you have to do quite a lot to make you actually want it. And by the time you get there to where it's reasonable, you've made a card which is going to be terribroken or very close. And to make one where it's actually like GOOD, it's just going to be broken very often.
So let's look at a couple of the examples (ones which I feel it's easiest for me to make my points on - not necessarily the worst designs) and see how they're generally just quite weak.

King of the Slums:
This is the one that can gain and King a ruins, throne another, play a third (actually gain up to 3; any of the top 3 you want).
If you are just getting one of them, it's basically a smithy or terminal gold for 5 which makes you gain a ruins. Well, smithy or terminal gold isn't so bad for 5 (but not great), but having to gain a ruins is a big downside. Ok, so you can play another thing twice. Well, I mean, for one play of course, this is worth it, and pretty good, but very long, and it's not going to be good at all. If you are playing 2 ruins already in your hand... You've spent 3 cards and are getting... let's say you treble the library and double a mine. You end up with 5 cards in hand and $2. That's not the worst thing ever, but it's not great... and you had to take ruins and get lucky enough for your collision. On top of all this, you are assuming you are getting good ruins here; sometimes you just get lots of survivors and ruined markets......


Robber Baron:
This is the one that you either gain a ruins or discard one for +$3 and they discard to 3.
If this hits, you have spent 2 cards for a militia +$1. IF IT HITS! Plus you have to take all kinds of junk to make that happen...


So now I want to talk for a moment about Archaeologist. That's the one which cantrips, when you play it can trash the top ruins, gives top ruins's benefit whenever you play another action.
First, it isn't in the same class as the others - you aren't using ruins in your deck positively, you are using them tangentially. I like this much more, and find it much more interesting design space.
Now, obviously, as is, it's just brokenz. But let's say we switch it to getting that ruins effect ONCE. Obviously, we need to re-balance the price out somehow (cost 4?), because it's not so strong now, but that can be done. And then I think it's quite interesting.

AJD

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #3: Dark Ages
« Reply #126 on: September 23, 2013, 11:27:16 pm »
0

So now I want to talk for a moment about Archaeologist. That's the one which cantrips, when you play it can trash the top ruins, gives top ruins's benefit whenever you play another action.
First, it isn't in the same class as the others - you aren't using ruins in your deck positively, you are using them tangentially. I like this much more, and find it much more interesting design space.
Now, obviously, as is, it's just brokenz. But let's say we switch it to getting that ruins effect ONCE. Obviously, we need to re-balance the price out somehow (cost 4?), because it's not so strong now, but that can be done. And then I think it's quite interesting.

This is more-or-less Hatter, one of the Outtakes; Donald's version had you play the top Ruins and move it to the bottom of the pile. That was cut because of tracking problems; for this version, at least the last copy you play doesn't have that problem, so it might be easier to use.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #3: Dark Ages
« Reply #127 on: September 23, 2013, 11:44:24 pm »
+3

Correction to the beginning of your video, WanderingWinder: 5 copies of a supplementary card means we have room for one Victory card in the set, not zero. I'm listening to the rest of it now and am going to try to post my reactions after that.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #3: Dark Ages
« Reply #128 on: September 24, 2013, 12:22:14 am »
0

Quote
Cultivate
Types: Action – Victory
Cost: $5
+1 Action. Choose one: Trash a Victory card from your hand and gain a Treasure card costing up to $1 more; or trash a Treasure card from your hand and gain a Victory card costing up to $2 more.

This is worth 3 VP if there are at least 4 differently named Victory cards in the trash; otherwise it's worth 1 VP.

An Estate that transfers Victories to Treasures and vice versa. The victory part is almost pointless, most of the time someone's gonna have to trash a province, and who's gonna do that? Top seems interesting.

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Cemetery
Types: Victory
Cost: $5
Worth 2 VP plus 1 VP for every 2 differently named Action cards in the trash.

When you gain this, trash a card from your hand other than a Cemetery.

An interesting alt VP. Probably balanced, except maybe with ruins it gets crazy.

Quote
Patrol
Types: Action – Reaction
Cost: $3
Discard any number of cards. Draw until you have 5 cards in hand.

When you discard a card from your hand other than during a Clean-up phase, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, either trash that card, or put it on top of your deck.

I really like self-synergy cards. And I like this one.

Quote
Tribal Man
Types: Action
Cost: $5
Gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile. Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal an Action card. Choose one: Put the card into your hand; or play the Action, trash it, and gain a card costing less than it.

When you trash this, gain an Action card costing at most $5 that is not a Tribal Man.

Just complicated enough for a Dark Ages card. I quite like it, but I feel like the bottom half is just a more powerful Catacombs.

Quote
Disciple
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Look through your discard pile. You may reveal a Treasure from it and put it into your hand. You may trash this and another copy of Disciple from your hand. If you do trash two Disciples, gain a Savior from the Savior pile.

Savior
Types: Action
Cost: 0*
+1 Action. You may put your deck into your discard pile. Look through your discard pile and put a card from it into your hand. You may return this to the Savior pile. If you do, play an Action card from your hand three times. (This is not in the Supply.)

This looks really OP. "Why yes, I think I will grab that platinum back." And I think the two-copies trashing thing is more of TM's niche.

Quote
Brick
Types: Treasure
Cost: $5
Worth $1. When you play this, trash a card you have in play. Gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it.

When you trash this, gain a Copper, putting it into your hand.

Clarification: Under normal circumstances, you will be able to trash the Brick you just played.

Ooh, trash this to gain a Gold and a Copper? Self-synergy, and I like it.

Quote
Deathmonger
Types: Action – Reaction
Cost: $3
Trash the top card of your deck. You may trash the top card of your deck.

When any player (including you) trashes cards, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, that player puts the trashed cards into his hand.

Seems interesting, but swingy. Of course, what happens if two players reveal this from their hands? Is it a race to reveal it first, or is there a player order resolve thing, or what?

Quote
Necromancy
Types: Action – Attack
Cost: $5
Choose one: Gain an Action or Treasure card from the trash, putting it into your hand. Play it immediately. At the end of the turn, trash that card; or each other player reveals the top 2 cards of his deck, trashes one of them costing from $3 to $6, and discards the rest.

When you gain this, you may trash a card costing up to $6 from the Supply if there is not a copy of it in the trash.

This has tracking issues, but looks interesting.

Quote
Mortuary
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. Look through your discard pile. You may trash a card from your discard pile or hand.

While this is in play, when you trash a card costing $2 or more, +1 Card.

This looks like a really simple, but cool and DA-esque card. Really like it.

Quote
Incendiarist
Types: Action – Attack – Looter
Cost: $5
You may trash a card from your hand. If it is an… Action card, each other player gains a Ruins; Treasure card, gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile; Victory card, each other player gains a Curse.

Don't really like curses and ruins on the same card. Looks OP too.

Quote
Priestcraft
Types: Action – Attack
Cost: $5
+$2. Choose one: Trash a card from your hand; or choose a card in the trash and each other player gains a copy of that card, putting it on top of his deck.

This is an interesting attack. I think it would be better with the Sea Hag fix (discard the top card of deck, then gain to deck) because it could kill your next hand.

Quote
Miser
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Choose two: +$2; gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile; gain a Silver. (The choices must be different.)

Looks like Explorer, and is a bit boring.

Quote
Charter (A)
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Card. +1 Action. Trash the top card of your deck. You may gain a card from the trash.

When you trash this, +2 Cards.

this is a much less swingy version of the Trash-from-deck. In fact, I really like it. It may have to cost $5 though...

Quote
Robber Baron
Types: Action – Attack – Looter
Cost: $4
You may discard a Ruins. If you do, +$3 and each other player discards down to 3 cards in hand. Otherwise, gain a Ruins.

When you gain this, gain 2 Ruins.

I would never buy this because it junks yourself too much.

Quote
Sacrifice
Types: Action
Cost: $5
Trash a card from your hand. If you do, +$2 and gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile.

Like altar, a set TFB. I like it.

Quote
Astral Conqueror
Types: Action – Attack – Looter
Cost: $5
+$2. Each other player gains a Curse and a Ruins Each other player gains a Spoils from the Spoils pile. This cannot cause the last player to gain the last Curse or Ruins in the Supply.

Again, I don't like a curse/ruins combined giver.

Quote
Smelter (A)
Types: Action – Reaction
Cost: $3
+1 Action. Trash a card from your hand. Gain a card of equal cost, putting it on top of your deck.

When you would gain a Silver, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, instead, gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile.

Top is lame and almost useless, bottom is cool, especially with trader.

Quote
Alehouse
Types: Action
Cost: #3
When you trash a card this turn, +1 Action, discard a card, +1 Card, and you may gain a card costing less than the trashed card. Trash a card from your hand or from play.

Worded weird, I like the below-the-line fix. Also, I think it may be too powerful with three. Yes sir, I think I will open with two of these.

Quote
Heretic
Types: Action – Reaction
Cost: $5
Trash a card from your hand. Choose one: +1 Card per $ it costs; or +$ equal to its cost.

When one of your cards is trashed, you may trash this from your hand. If you do, put the trashed card into your hand.

Top part is combined salvager/apprentice, that's cool, but I don't think I'd ever use the reaction except maybe to a trashed province from sabotuer... Oh now I see! You can use one of these to trash a province for cards or money, then gain it right back with another! I like it!

Quote
Bargain
Types: Reaction
Cost: $1
When you would gain a card, you may discard this. If you do, instead, gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it.

Seems reasonable for a $1 card.

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Soldier
Types: Action – Attack
Cost: $3
+1 Card. +1 Action. Each player trashes a Copper card from his hand (or reveals a hand without Copper). You may trash this. If you do, gain a Mercenary from the Mercenary pile if there are 4 or more Treasues in the trash; or gain a Madman from the Madman pile if there are 2 or more Soldiers in the trash.

Clarification: If there are 4 Treasures and 2 Soldiers in the trash, you choose whether to gain a Mercenary or a Madman.

I like the theme, but don't know if it's super balanced or what not.

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Archaeologist
Types: Action – Looter
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. You may trash the top card of the Ruins pile.

While this card is in play, when you play an Action card, play a copy of the top card of the Ruins pile.

I like this concept, and with a little tweaking it could work really well.

Quote
Stronghold
Types: Victory
Cost: $6
Worth 1 VP for every 2 Spoils in your deck (rounded down).

When you gain this, gain 3 Spoils from the Spoils pile.

Weak.

Quote
Raid
Types: Action – Looter
Cost: $3
Choose one: Play and trash up to 2 Action cards from your hand; or gain any number of Action cards from the trash costing up to $3 and play them in any order.

When you trash this, each other player gains a Ruins.

This looks interesting.

Thjat's it for now.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #3: Dark Ages
« Reply #129 on: September 24, 2013, 01:30:29 am »
0

For once, I decided to critique all the cards, although most of my blurbs are very brief. There are just so many cards!

Quote
Cultivate
Types: Action – Victory
Cost: $5
+1 Action. Choose one: Trash a Victory card from your hand and gain a Treasure card costing up to $1 more; or trash a Treasure card from your hand and gain a Victory card costing up to $2 more.

This is worth 3 VP if there are at least 4 differently named Victory cards in the trash; otherwise it's worth 1 VP.

The "if you trash this type, do this; if you trash this type, do this" is kind of kludgy for my taste. Also, I think the Victory portion doesn't grab me. Overall, it seems like the card tries to do too much.

Quote
Cemetery
Types: Victory
Cost: $5
Worth 2 VP plus 1 VP for every 2 differently named Action cards in the trash.

When you gain this, trash a card from your hand other than a Cemetery.

The Victory card based on a shared resource has been tried and wasn't a big hit. The on-gain effect is cute, and I think this is probably a decent implementation of the concept, but I still think the concept itself is flawed.

Quote
Patrol
Types: Action – Reaction
Cost: $3
Discard any number of cards. Draw until you have 5 cards in hand.

When you discard a card from your hand other than during a Clean-up phase, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, either trash that card, or put it on top of your deck.

The Reaction is confusing rules-wise. Even once a ruling is made, it's not really obvious just from the card how it's meant to resolve. I think the top part is probably decent. I wouldn't mind seeing that by itself or on another Reaction.

Quote
Model Village
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Card. +2 Actions.

When you trash this, you may trash a card from your hand. If you do, gain a card costing up to $2 more than it.

Too close to Fortress for my taste. I think it's probably balanced, though.

Quote
Tribal Man
Types: Action
Cost: $5
Gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile. Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal an Action card. Choose one: Put the card into your hand; or play the Action, trash it, and gain a card costing less than it.

When you trash this, gain an Action card costing at most $5 that is not a Tribal Man.

This is too kludgy for me. Too many clauses.

Quote
Disciple
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Look through your discard pile. You may reveal a Treasure from it and put it into your hand. You may trash this and another copy of Disciple from your hand. If you do trash two Disciples, gain a Savior from the Savior pile.

Savior
Types: Action
Cost: 0*
+1 Action. You may put your deck into your discard pile. Look through your discard pile and put a card from it into your hand. You may return this to the Savior pile. If you do, play an Action card from your hand three times. (This is not in the Supply.)

I really like the way you get Saviors from Disciples. It actually just hit me that because you need 2 Disciples to get a Savior, it makes sense for there to only be 5 Saviors in the pile. Well done, sir! As for the cards themselves, I'm more leery. The whole "put whichever card you want into your hand" is just too much instant gratification for my taste. It's reasonable on Disciple because you can't put your deck into your discard pile. I think I'll vote for this, but I'd like it better if Savior didn't allow you to discard your deck and didn't have the option to King's Court an Action.

Quote
Renovate
Type: Action
Cost: $4
Trash a card from your hand. You may gain a card costing up to $1 more than the trashed card, putting it into your hand. If it is an Action card, play it.

Too crazy, I'm almost certain. For instance, you can just run out the Renovate pile if you have a Renovate and Fortress in hand.

Quote
Brick
Types: Treasure
Cost: $5
Worth $1. When you play this, trash a card you have in play. Gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it.

When you trash this, gain a Copper, putting it into your hand.

Clarification: Under normal circumstances, you will be able to trash the Brick you just played.

It's hard for me to envision how this would play. At first I didn't like it, but the more I think about it, the more I think it's a good card. I'm not sure it needs the on-trash benefit.

Quote
Bricklayer
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Trash any number of differently named cards from your hand. +1 Card per card trashed.

I like this. Simple and elegant. The differently-named cards clause keeps it from being a super-Chapel. It's probably not great in full random games, but probably much better in a game with a few more Dark Ages cards. Very good at getting rid of Ruins and nice for activating on-trash abilities.

Quote
Deathmonger
Types: Action – Reaction
Cost: $3
Trash the top card of your deck. You may trash the top card of your deck.

When any player (including you) trashes cards, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, that player puts the trashed cards into his hand.

The (usually) blind trashing is certainly unique, but I'm not a fan. I also don't like the Reaction, which doesn't have a great trigger (since you're not already doing something just because some other player trashed a card), and is too much of an attack.

Quote
Carpenter
Types: Action
Cost: $5
Trash a card from your hand and gain a cheaper card, putting it into your hand. +$ equal to the cost in coins of the gained card.

When you trash this during your Action phase, +1 Action.

The action part cribs a bit too much from Salvager, although that's not necessarily a dealbreaker. I really don't like the on-trash effect, though. +1 Action isn't a great on-trash effect because it only makes sense on your own turn, and I'm not a fan of a tacked-on clause to fix that.

Quote
Necromancy
Types: Action – Attack
Cost: $5
Choose one: Gain an Action or Treasure card from the trash, putting it into your hand. Play it immediately. At the end of the turn, trash that card; or each other player reveals the top 2 cards of his deck, trashes one of them costing from $3 to $6, and discards the rest.

When you gain this, you may trash a card costing up to $6 from the Supply if there is not a copy of it in the trash.

This tries to do too much. The on-gain effect pretty much just creates AP and does nothing else.

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Ravage
Types: Action – Attack – Looter
Cost: $5
You may discard a card. If you do, +1 Action. Each other player with 3 or more cards in hand reveals his hand and discards the card with the highest cost in coins (you choose in a tie). If he discarded a Victory card, he gains a Ruins, putting it into his hand.

I think I might like this if it didn't have the option to discard a card for +1 Action. It's a really harsh attack, though. Especially since the Ruins in hand means you can be hit by it again. Even without that, it's a very powerful attack.

Quote
Junkyard (A)
Types: Action – Looter
Cost: $5
+1 Action. You may gain a Ruins, putting it into your hand. Discard any number of cards. +1 Card per card discarded. +1 Card per Action card discarded. You may trash this.

When you trash this, +2 Cards.

I think this is a bit kludgy. I'd have a hard time remembering what all it does without reading it each time.

Quote
Mortuary
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. Look through your discard pile. You may trash a card from your discard pile or hand.

While this is in play, when you trash a card costing $2 or more, +1 Card.

I think I'd like this if the bottom half worked when you trashed any card.

Quote
Pact
Type: Treasure
Cost: $2
Worth $0. When you play this, trash it. For each Pact in the trash, gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile, putting it into your hand.

When you buy a Pact, each player gains a copy of it (you get 2 copies total).

I don't like the fact that the pile runs out so very fast. The idea behind it is interesting, but I'm afraid it would lead to too much of a waiting game as nobody wants to play them first.

Quote
Ferret
Types: Action
Cost: $4
You may trash this. If you do, +$ equal to the cost in coins of an Action card in the trash that you choose.

While this is in play, when you buy a card, gain a Ferret from the Supply or trash.

I like how creative the effects are, but I'm afraid it's going to mostly just be a one-shot +$4. Maybe that's not so bad, but it's not my favorite.

Quote
Incendiarist
Types: Action – Attack – Looter
Cost: $5
You may trash a card from your hand. If it is an… Action card, each other player gains a Ruins; Treasure card, gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile; Victory card, each other player gains a Curse.

I agree with Donald that Dark Ages doesn't really need a card that gives Curses. Once you run out Ruins and Curses, the game's pretty much over.

Quote
Priestcraft
Types: Action – Attack
Cost: $5
+$2. Choose one: Trash a card from your hand; or choose a card in the trash and each other player gains a copy of that card, putting it on top of his deck.

Dark Ages might be the worst place for this card because if you choose a copy of the top Ruins of the pile, probably only the player to your left will be attacked.

Quote
Miser
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Choose two: +$2; gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile; gain a Silver. (The choices must be different.)

In general, I dislike "Choose two" cards. However, I think I like this one. However, I think I'd like to see a fourth option and maybe a cost bump to $5.

Quote
Charter (A)
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Card. +1 Action. Trash the top card of your deck. You may gain a card from the trash.

When you trash this, +2 Cards.

I get that you have the option to gain back the card you just (blindly) trashed. I actually have a somewhat-similar blind trasher in my own set. I'm not a huge fan of this one, though.

Quote
Robber Baron
Types: Action – Attack – Looter
Cost: $4
You may discard a Ruins. If you do, +$3 and each other player discards down to 3 cards in hand. Otherwise, gain a Ruins.

When you gain this, gain 2 Ruins.

A Death Cart/Baron/Militia combo. It seems like it could be balanced, but it just seems too derivative to me.

Quote
Sacrifice
Types: Action
Cost: $5
Trash a card from your hand. If you do, +$2 and gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile.

Seems OK-ish, but I feel like Dark Ages has enough thinning cards (Forager, Junk Dealer, Altar).

Quote
King of the Slums
Types: Action – Looter
Cost: $5
Look at the top 3 cards of the Ruins pile. Gain any number of them, putting them into your hand. Put the rest back in any order. Choose up to 3 Ruins from your hand. Play the first one three times, the second one twice, and the third one once.

Neat idea. I'd rather see something it made a bit more elegant. Maybe if you could only gain one Ruins per play and the end clause was something like, "Do this any number of times: Play a Ruins from your hand twice."

Quote
Astral Conqueror
Types: Action – Attack – Looter
Cost: $5
+$2. Each other player gains a Curse and a Ruins Each other player gains a Spoils from the Spoils pile. This cannot cause the last player to gain the last Curse or Ruins in the Supply.

Not a fan of a card that gives out both Curses and Ruins. The "fix" that keeps piles from running out too fast seems kludgy and ineffective because you can just buy the last Ruins/Curse to end the game.

Quote
Smelter (A)
Types: Action – Reaction
Cost: $3
+1 Action. Trash a card from your hand. Gain a card of equal cost, putting it on top of your deck.

When you would gain a Silver, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, instead, gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile.

This has a sort of infinite loop issue with Trader. Not a big deal in real life play, I guess. The Action seems too weak at any cost.

Quote
Junkyard (B)
Types: Action – Victory
Cost: $5
Choose one: Trash a card from your hand; gain up to 2 cards from the trash with a total cost of up to $5 and trash this.

Worth 1 VP for every 3 Victory cards in the trash.

Again, not a huge fan of Victory cards that use shared resources.

Quote
Alehouse
Types: Action
Cost: #3
When you trash a card this turn, +1 Action, discard a card, +1 Card, and you may gain a card costing less than the trashed card. Trash a card from your hand or from play.

Too kludgy for my taste.

Quote
Ignoble Brigand
Types: Action – Attack – Looter
Cost: $4
+$1. You may trash a Treasure from your hand. Each other player may discard a Treasure. If he doesn't, he gains a Ruins.

It's a mini-Torturer that thins Copper from your deck. Too similar to Torturer for my taste.

Quote
Junkyard (C)
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Trash a card from your hand. Gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it, putting it into your hand.

When you trash this, trash a card from your hand. Gain a card costing exactly $1 less than it.

On-trash penalties aren't a good idea. Mostly they do nothing except make you not want them when there are trashing Attacks on the board.

Quote
Heretic
Types: Action – Reaction
Cost: $5
Trash a card from your hand. Choose one: +1 Card per $ it costs; or +$ equal to its cost.

When one of your cards is trashed, you may trash this from your hand. If you do, put the trashed card into your hand.

The Reaction is super weak and I feel like the Action is too close to Salvager/Apprentice.

Quote
Iron Maiden
Types: Action – Attack – Looter
Cost: $4
+$2. Each other player with 5 or more cards in hand discards a card. If it is an…
Action card, he gains a Copper; Treasure card, he gains a Ruins; Victory card, he gains a Curse. He puts the gained card into his hand.

When you trash this, you may trash up to 2 cards from your hand.

Again, not a big fan of cards that give both Curses and Ruins.

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Satan's Workshop
Types: Action – Attack
Cost: $5
Gain a card costing up to the number of Fire tokens in your Satan Pit. Each other player may reveal a hand with 2 or fewer Treasures. If nobody does, put a Fire token in your Satan Pit. Each other player gains a Copper, putting it into his hand.

When you would trash this, set it aside. If you do, at the beginning of your next Buy phase, +1 Buy, +$1 per token in your Satan Pit, and put this into the trash.

Setup: Each player puts 2 Fire tokens in his Satan Pit.

This card is a wordy mess and requires new mats and tokens. Gah!

Quote
Bargain
Types: Reaction
Cost: $1
When you would gain a card, you may discard this. If you do, instead, gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it.

The Reaction copper. Also lets you avoid gaining a Curse or Ruins in exchange for more of these. Too weak.

Quote
Soldier
Types: Action – Attack
Cost: $3
+1 Card. +1 Action. Each player trashes a Copper card from his hand (or reveals a hand without Copper). You may trash this. If you do, gain a Mercenary from the Mercenary pile if there are 4 or more Treasues in the trash; or gain a Madman from the Madman pile if there are 2 or more Soldiers in the trash.

Clarification: If there are 4 Treasures and 2 Soldiers in the trash, you choose whether to gain a Mercenary or a Madman.

This is just my personal opinion, but I'm not a huge fan of reusing Madman and Mercenary this way.

Quote
Archaeologist
Types: Action – Looter
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. You may trash the top card of the Ruins pile.

While this card is in play, when you play an Action card, play a copy of the top card of the Ruins pile.

I think it should also do something if the Ruins pile is empty. Like Hatter, it can be hard to track. Overall I like it. I'm hopeful that it'll work out better than the similar outtakes from Dark Ages.

Quote
Stronghold
Types: Victory
Cost: $6
Worth 1 VP for every 2 Spoils in your deck (rounded down).

When you gain this, gain 3 Spoils from the Spoils pile.

As far as alt-VP cards go, this is one of the best ones I've seen. That being said, I don't love the fact that it makes you want to hoard Spoils, but that's just personal opinion. I think I'd mostly use it to get Spoils, then try to trash-for-benefit it. I think I'd like it better if it just gave 2 VP or some such.

Quote
Garrison
Types: Action – Reaction
Cost: $3
Trash a card from your hand. For each $2 that it costs (rounded down), gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile.

When a player trashes a card, you may reveal this from your hand and gain the trashed card. If you do, discard this.

Clarification: If multiple players reveal a Garrison, the Garrison of the player who trashed the card gets resolved first, the other players follow in turn order. Later players can't gain the card due to losing track; Garrison can only gain the card if it is still in the trash.

Even with the clarification, I don't love the whole Reaction-resolving-in-turn-order. Nope, not a fan.

Quote
Raid
Types: Action – Looter
Cost: $3
Choose one: Play and trash up to 2 Action cards from your hand; or gain any number of Action cards from the trash costing up to $3 and play them in any order.

When you trash this, each other player gains a Ruins.

I'm not really sure what to think about this one. I like how you can use it to gain a slew of Ruins and just play them all at once. But getting the ball rolling on those Ruins requires some help. I'll have to think more about this.

Quote
Surveyor
Types: Action – Reaction
Cost: $4
+1 Action. You may trash a Victory card from your hand. If you do, gain two Treasures each costing exactly $1 more than it, putting one on top of your deck.

When another player buys a Victory card, you may set this aside from your hand. If you do, at the start of your next turn, return this to your hand and gain an Estate, putting it into your hand.

This seems like it could be balanced, but I don't find it super-exciting. I like how the Reaction meshes with the Action, but don't love that it triggers on opponents buying any Victory card.

Quote
Smelter (B)
Types: Action – Reaction
Cost: $3
You may trash a card from your hand. If you trash an… Action card, +2 Actions; Treasure card, +$2; Victory card, +2 Cards.

When you trash a card you may discard this from your hand. If you go, gain a card costing less than the trashed card.

I like the top half OK. The bottom half is just so much weaker than Market Square.

Quote
Condottiero
Types: Action – Attack – Looter
Cost: $4
+2 Buys. +$2. Each player (including you) may discard a Treasure. If he does, he puts his deck into his discard pile and immediately reshuffles. Each other player gains a Ruins.

When you trash this, look through your discard pile. You may trash up to 2 cards from your discard pile or hand.

Clarification: Each other player gaining a Ruins is not contingent on whether or not he discards; it just always happens after the discard and shuffling effects.

I probably should have mentioned this earlier, but I don't think Dark Ages needs another junker at all. This one has a lot of clauses, but I'm not sure it brings that much to the table. Yeah, the opponent gets to discard a Treasure to reshuffle before getting hit with junk. Not a super-exciting choice, I don't think. I do like the on-trash effect! I'd like it better on a different card.

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Angry Mob
Types: Action – Attack – Looter
Cost: $4
+1 Action. +1 Buy. Each player gains a Ruins, putting it into his hand.

While this is in play, when you buy a Ruins, you may trash this. If you do, gain a Mob Boss from the Mob Boss pile.

Mob Boss
Types: Action
Cost: $0*
+1 Buy. Reveal your hand. For each Ruins revealed, +1 Card and +$1. You may return a Ruins from your hand to the Supply. If you do, +1 Action. (This is not in the Supply.)

Again, I don't think we need another junker. I like the idea of an alternate use for Ruins, but I don't think this is the best way to do it.

Quote
Charter (B)
Types: Treasure – Attack – Looter
Cost: $5
Worth $2. When you play this, each other player gains a Ruins, putting it into his hand.

Again, don't need another junker. This seems balanced, though. I think it's my favorite of the junkers here.

Quote
Danse Macabre
Types: Action
Cost: $4
You may play an Action from your hand for none of its effects. If you do, +4 Cards and +1 Action.

When you buy this, trash it.

When you trash this, gain 2 cheaper cards of different costs.

I really hate cards with two lines. I also really hate "play an Action from your hand for none of its effects". I'd prefer "discard an Action". I like the idea of a card you cannot buy, and I even like the specific effect you get if you try to buy it. If I were to make such a card, I'd prefer something like, "When you buy this, instead of gaining it, gain two cheaper cards." Boom. One line. Then if you manage to gain it without buying it, it does something cool.

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Garderobe
Types: Action – Looter
Cost: $2
+1 Action. +$2. Gain a Ruins, putting it into your hand. You may play an Action card from your hand costing up to $3.

I think I like this one OK. Neat idea. I might try it where it allows you to play only Ruins with the last clause. Maybe it's great as-is, though.

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Drug
Types: Action – Victory – Looter
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. +$1. You may gain a Ruins. If you do, +1 Card. You may gain a Ruins. If you do, +1 Action.

Worth –3 VP if every other player has fewer Ruins than you.

I think it's probably too harsh. I doubt I'd often gain Ruins for these effects. I also really dislike Kingdom cards that give negative VP.

Quote
Street Sweeper
Types: Action – Looter
Cost: $4
+2 Cards. +1 Action. Trash a card.

When you trash this, gain a Ruins.

On-trash penalties don't work. This is way too powerful, even at $5.

Quote
Blood Feud
Types:
Action – Attack – Looter
Cost: $4
Choose one: +1 Action, +$1, and each player (including you) gains a Ruins, putting it in his hand; or reveal up to 3 cards from your hand, play the revealed Action cards in any order, then trash all the revealed cards.

Hard to see how this would play out. If it's not too weak and your opponents get them, you pretty much have to follow suit, since it's essentially the best way to trash all the Ruins you'll be getting.

Quote
Barrister
Types: Action – Attack
Cost: $5
+2 Cards. Each player (including you) reveals the top 2 cards of his deck; you may choose a revealed Treasure for him to trash. He discards the rest. You may gain a Treasure from the trash.

Setup: Replace one of each player's starting Coppers with a Claim.

Claim
Types: Treasure
Cost: $0
Worth $1. When you play this, look through your discard pile. You may trash a Claim from your discard pile or hand. If you do, gain a Gold, putting it into your hand.

Clarification: In a 6-player game, the starting player does not replace a Copper with a Claim.

I think WanderingWinder is right about the +2 Cards being a bad idea. It makes it way too easy to build an engine that spams these and just wipes the good Treasures out of everyone's decks. Without that, though, I think this could be balanced. It's interesting to me that everyone is dismissing Claim as a cute, gimmicky tack-on, when it actually seems to be the main thrust of the card. One thing that may have slipped by is that Claims that you trash to get Gold can be gained again by the next player to play a Barrister. Barring Island, Claims never leave circulation.

Quote
Mendicant
Types: Action – Looter
Cost: $2
+1 Card. +1 Action. Gain a Ruins, putting it into your hand. You may play any number of Ruins from your hand. If you played two or more, +1 Card.

This is similar to a bunch of the other cards earlier. I do like that this actually lets you play any number of Ruins. I'd prefer it it let you play them twice or something, instead of giving you the flat +1 Card for playing two or more.

And that's it! Sorry if I panned your card. Trust me, mine is getting panned, too!  ;D Thanks for reading.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2013, 01:33:18 am by LastFootnote »
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Nic

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #3: Dark Ages
« Reply #130 on: September 24, 2013, 01:31:38 am »
0

Approximately 115 minutes of content for me to trim down for my thoughts on these cards...

Maybe it was just me, but I felt like these cards were of somewhat lower quality overall than the first two contests. Many more cards just struck me as duds and the like, and fewer jumped out as really cool ideas. No offence to everyone intended, maybe it's just Dark Ages is harder to make cards for.

I think its this. I know I had a much harder time coming up with a cool idea this round.
I felt like Hinterlands was really dull, and this current contest is about as good as Prosperity. (To put that in context, I'm happy with my submissions for Prosperity and Dark Ages, but I didn't submit anything for Hinterlands. Maybe there's some correlation.)

I would say that the cards are a lot more homogeneous this time around. A lot of people wanted Ruins for benefit, and the only thematic way to do that (as opposed to treating them like a Confusion that you can reveal/discard/trash for a generic effect) is 'play a bunch of Ruins for free'. A lot of people also wanted an on-trash benefit to spruce up their card, and it should be simple and not been used before. Voila; now we have three cards or so with "when you trash this, trash some more cards" below the line.
 Full disclosure: I'm one of those people. I added it on a whim when I was typing up my PM. I think it does work on my card, though.
If you don't like either of those gimmicks, then you'll definitely have a smaller pool of cards to choose from.

Also, there are some seriously goofy names this time around -- I don't mind the ones that came off Wikipedia, since they're usually thematic. Dominion was the game that taught me what a Margrave is, after all. I like to think I'm unbiased enough to judge the cards purely on their mechanics and ignore irrelevant data, but a lot of these are like . . . 'nobody is going to like the name and you KNOW it'll be the first thing to go if your card wins. Why did you deliberately make it less appealing?'
I actually ctrl-V'ed one of these cards and rewrote the names to see if my opinion changed. As it turns out, 'gain a card costing up to $2 plus $1 per coin token on your Sweatshop mat' is actually kind of interesting. (It's still a Copper flooder without any built-in defenses, but that can be tweaked.) I don't think LFN needs to come up with codewords for each card, but it's worth keeping in mind when you're judging these things.

 
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eHalcyon

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #3: Dark Ages
« Reply #131 on: September 24, 2013, 02:05:44 am »
0

Quote
Blood Feud
Types:
Action – Attack – Looter
Cost: $4
Choose one: +1 Action, +$1, and each player (including you) gains a Ruins, putting it in his hand; or reveal up to 3 cards from your hand, play the revealed Action cards in any order, then trash all the revealed cards.

Hard to see how this would play out. If it's not too weak and your opponents get them, you pretty much have to follow suit, since it's essentially the best way to trash all the Ruins you'll be getting.

Quote
Barrister
Types: Action – Attack
Cost: $5
+2 Cards. Each player (including you) reveals the top 2 cards of his deck; you may choose a revealed Treasure for him to trash. He discards the rest. You may gain a Treasure from the trash.

Setup: Replace one of each player's starting Coppers with a Claim.

Claim
Types: Treasure
Cost: $0
Worth $1. When you play this, look through your discard pile. You may trash a Claim from your discard pile or hand. If you do, gain a Gold, putting it into your hand.

Clarification: In a 6-player game, the starting player does not replace a Copper with a Claim.

I think WanderingWinder is right about the +2 Cards being a bad idea. It makes it way too easy to build an engine that spams these and just wipes the good Treasures out of everyone's decks. Without that, though, I think this could be balanced. It's interesting to me that everyone is dismissing Claim as a cute, gimmicky tack-on, when it actually seems to be the main thrust of the card. One thing that may have slipped by is that Claims that you trash to get Gold can be gained again by the next player to play a Barrister. Barring Island, Claims never leave circulation.

Someone else brought it up too, but I missed that Blood Feud trashes all revealed cards, which is why you can reveal cards that aren't actions.  This puts this almost on par with Chapel for trashing.  Not sure how I feel about that.

On Barrister and Claim -- I noted that Barrister could bring back Treasures not trashed that turn.  I still consider it to be a cute trick that isn't worth going for.  The thing is, Claim itself is just a Copper in value.  Yes you can get Claims back from the trash, but it just doesn't seem worth it to me to have to have two Claims to do it.  I don't know, maybe it is worth it after all.  I suppose they are almost guaranteed to match up, because if they don't collide in the same hand then the first one will usually be in the discard when you draw the second one.  But if you only draw the second one in the hand that causes the reshuffle... well, that's just sad. :P
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nopawnsintended

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #3: Dark Ages
« Reply #132 on: September 24, 2013, 02:08:38 am »
0

The short version.  I like Charter (A) and Robber Baron the best.  Charter (A) is a cool Menagerie-activation-like (not the same mechanic, but at trash based one) variation that I enjoy... and it is good at trashing and thinning it's deck, which is great.  Robber Baron is Baron-like in a way I enjoy.

The long version.  Here's my video commentary for anyone interested in listening to me talk about cards for 80 minutes.

  (as of this posting, 58% uploaded... so give it time)

Full disclosure: I submitted a card to this contest.  Neither of my favorite cards is my own submission, but I do like that my submission is different from many of the cards.
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werothegreat

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #3: Dark Ages
« Reply #133 on: September 24, 2013, 08:12:36 am »
0

Quick question - should we be voting for cards that we feel are perfectly balanced as is, or are we voting for cards that we like the idea for, but think need more balancing?
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #3: Dark Ages
« Reply #134 on: September 24, 2013, 08:19:29 am »
+5

Quick question - should we be voting for cards that we feel are perfectly balanced as is, or are we voting for cards that we like the idea for, but think need more balancing?

The second one.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #3: Dark Ages
« Reply #135 on: September 24, 2013, 10:12:47 am »
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I absolutely adore the concept behind "Bargain" but not only is it ludicrously weak, it doesn't really fit Dark Ages thematically beyond costing $1. Maybe this could work:

Bargain
Reaction - $1
When you would gain a card you may trash this. If you do, gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it, putting it in your hand.
---
When you trash this, return it to the supply.

With the on trash you can block an indefinite number of Curses/Ruins. A oneshot copper may be a reasonable extra buy for $1, and probably a nice boon for Remake/Upgrade (and even Remodel and Butcher).  Also there are a few "Johnny" combos that can come from using the card in an engine with gainers.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2013, 10:15:18 am by NoMoreFun »
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #3: Dark Ages
« Reply #136 on: September 24, 2013, 10:22:31 am »
+6

Instead of commenting on all the cards or my favorites all at once, I'm going to try something a bit different and give extensive comments on one card each day of the week. I think this will be more conducive to discussion, and I can highlight my favorite cards here. As much as I'd like to, I won't choose my card.

Tuesday's Card:

Quote
Charter (A)
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Card. +1 Action. Trash the top card of your deck. You may gain a card from the trash.

When you trash this, +2 Cards.

Before reading others' comments:
This card is super cute, and maybe my favorite of the cards submitted. It's a cantrip trasher, and is probably very strong in the opening, since it doesn't even trash a card from your hand. It obviously has the Lookout problem times 3, but mitigates it by allowing you to gain back a good card that was trashed. At the same time, it could work really well with TFB, since you could trash costly cards for benefit and gain them back with Charter (A). In fact, I think I like this implementation of the mechanic better than Graverobber or Rogue. Also, the on-trash seems to mesh well with the on-play, which is a nice bonus.

After reading others' comments:
Some people think this should cost $5. I think I disagree, since the trashing isn't targetted, which seems like it would make it significantly worse than Junk Dealer at $5. Plus, I like that it's available on both 3/4 and 2/5 openings, which sort of bothers me with strong $5 trashers like Junk Dealer.

Others have noted that the gaining from trash could have the $3-$6 restriction of Graverobber and Rogue. I definitely disagree with the lower end -- since it's an optional gain, why not allow the gaining of Estates and the like? I see no harm there. At the upper end, I think I also disagree, though I'm less certain. I definitely wouldn't like how it would discourage playing Charter (A) after you have bought a Province, especially since it works interestingly with on-trash benefit cards, and those interactions are much more likely to happen late than early. Specifically responding to:

I don't like that it can gain ANY card from the trash without restriction.  Donald X. talks about this in the Secret Histories:

Quote
In games where Provinces end up trashed, such as via other Remodels, it's way too good to be able to gain them with Graverobbers, so you can't.

I would suggest giving it the $3-$6 cost restriction on gaining cards from the trash.  That introduces a weakness to this otherwise very powerful trasher, and it makes you think twice before playing it in the late game, much like Lookout.

Not to disrespect DXV, but I see this being more of a fun combo than a broken interaction. How often do Provinces end up in the trash normally -- maybe 1-2% of games? Then, in the handful of games where you'd want to TFB a Province and then get it back, is this really that strong? I mean, if your opponent also has a Charter (A), you'd have to make sure you trash your Province and gain it back this turn to make sure your opponent doesn't get it. But, most TFB and remodel cards are terminal, which would require a village, and now you're talking about setting up an engine to get the combo played. It sounds a lot more like some very reasonable mega-turn combos than a broken interaction to me, but maybe playtesting would show differently.
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Just a Rube

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #3: Dark Ages
« Reply #137 on: September 24, 2013, 10:49:14 am »
0

Quote
Blood Feud
Types:
Action – Attack – Looter
Cost: $4
Choose one: +1 Action, +$1, and each player (including you) gains a Ruins, putting it in his hand; or reveal up to 3 cards from your hand, play the revealed Action cards in any order, then trash all the revealed cards.

Hard to see how this would play out. If it's not too weak and your opponents get them, you pretty much have to follow suit, since it's essentially the best way to trash all the Ruins you'll be getting.

Someone else brought it up too, but I missed that Blood Feud trashes all revealed cards, which is why you can reveal cards that aren't actions.  This puts this almost on par with Chapel for trashing.  Not sure how I feel about that.
I agree that the second part, not the "helpful Ruins" is the more interesting part of this card (interesting not necessarily meaning good or bad, just "interesting"), and I'd like to see some more discussion on it before I decide. On the one hand, it's like a Chapel that trashes 1 fewer card (and I seem to recall that one of the Secret Histories said that that was way slower) and costs $2 more (but can act as a cannibal village). On the other hand, it's a (very) weak junker that runs out of ammunition, so might it have the expensive chapel problem (if you find out that you need it after your deck is junked, you'll never afford it). I don't know how big an issue that is; what do other people think?
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kn1tt3r

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #3: Dark Ages
« Reply #138 on: September 24, 2013, 10:56:17 am »
0

Quote
Cultivate
Types: Action – Victory
Cost: $5
+1 Action. Choose one: Trash a Victory card from your hand and gain a Treasure card costing up to $1 more; or trash a Treasure card from your hand and gain a Victory card costing up to $2 more.

This is worth 3 VP if there are at least 4 differently named Victory cards in the trash; otherwise it's worth 1 VP.
So the restrictive combination of Upgrade and Remodel. I mean, it's neat, but it's basically a combination of exisiting things, and it's a bit wordy.


Quote
Cemetery
Types: Victory
Cost: $5
Worth 2 VP plus 1 VP for every 2 differently named Action cards in the trash.

When you gain this, trash a card from your hand other than a Cemetery.
I don't understand the reason for the "other that Cemetary", but well, this is probably quite weak. You have to buy two of them to get it equal to a Duchy, and after that you really have to commit for it. Buy actions, just to trash it, possibly only with Cemetary buys... a niche card at best.


Quote
Patrol
Types: Action – Reaction
Cost: $3
Discard any number of cards. Draw until you have 5 cards in hand.

When you discard a card from your hand other than during a Clean-up phase, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, either trash that card, or put it on top of your deck.
So the action is ok. A bit on the weak side, but ok. The reaction is interesting however, so you can actually use it as a trasher or to draw the cards back right away. I guess I like it.


Quote
Model Village
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Card. +2 Actions.

When you trash this, you may trash a card from your hand. If you do, gain a card costing up to $2 more than it.
The remodelling village... it's quite good with T4B, especially in the endgame, and just a normal village otherwise... I feel it functions quite similar to Fortress, but I'm not sure.


Quote
Tribal Man
Types: Action
Cost: $5
Gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile. Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal an Action card. Choose one: Put the card into your hand; or play the Action, trash it, and gain a card costing less than it.

When you trash this, gain an Action card costing at most $5 that is not a Tribal Man.
It's probably fine, but what I don't like is that it's basically a combination of known ideas. Simple Spoils gainer, digging reverse Procession, and better Catacombs bottom part.


Quote
Disciple
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Look through your discard pile. You may reveal a Treasure from it and put it into your hand. You may trash this and another copy of Disciple from your hand. If you do trash two Disciples, gain a Savior from the Savior pile.

Savior
Types: Action
Cost: 0*
+1 Action. You may put your deck into your discard pile. Look through your discard pile and put a card from it into your hand. You may return this to the Savior pile. If you do, play an Action card from your hand three times. (This is not in the Supply.)
All around very interesting, but either I don't understand it or it's damn confused regarding thematics.


Quote
Renovate
Type: Action
Cost: $4
Trash a card from your hand. You may gain a card costing up to $1 more than the trashed card, putting it into your hand. If it is an Action card, play it.
This feels a bit strong, but can lead to some nice plays. Intriguing.


Quote
Brick
Types: Treasure
Cost: $5
Worth $1. When you play this, trash a card you have in play. Gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it.

When you trash this, gain a Copper, putting it into your hand.

Clarification: Under normal circumstances, you will be able to trash the Brick you just played.
A bit like the trashing part of Counterfeit, but without being limited to Treasures. I guess it's fine, though it might be a bit too simliar to Junk Dealer - basiaclly it's a combination of Junk Dealer and Upgrade. I think I like it.


Quote
Bricklayer
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Trash any number of differently named cards from your hand. +1 Card per card trashed.
Intersting. So most times it's either "Trash two card, +2 Cards" or "Trash one card, +1 Card"... It's probably fine, though it might even work with a lower cost.


Quote
Deathmonger
Types: Action – Reaction
Cost: $3
Trash the top card of your deck. You may trash the top card of your deck.

When any player (including you) trashes cards, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, that player puts the trashed cards into his hand.
The reaction thing I like a lot. What I don't really understand is why the action part is mandatory for the first time and optimal for the second time... Maybe I just don't see the point.


Quote
Carpenter
Types: Action
Cost: $5
Trash a card from your hand and gain a cheaper card, putting it into your hand. +$ equal to the cost in coins of the gained card.

When you trash this during your Action phase, +1 Action.
Quite board dependend, but interesting. The big thing is probably to trash Gold during endgame to possibly gain Duchy + Province/another Duchy.


Quote
Necromancy
Types: Action – Attack
Cost: $5
Choose one: Gain an Action or Treasure card from the trash, putting it into your hand. Play it immediately. At the end of the turn, trash that card; or each other player reveals the top 2 cards of his deck, trashes one of them costing from $3 to $6, and discards the rest.

When you gain this, you may trash a card costing up to $6 from the Supply if there is not a copy of it in the trash.
Quite wordy and too similar to Rogue for my taste.


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Ravage
Types: Action – Attack – Looter
Cost: $5
You may discard a card. If you do, +1 Action. Each other player with 3 or more cards in hand reveals his hand and discards the card with the highest cost in coins (you choose in a tie). If he discarded a Victory card, he gains a Ruins, putting it into his hand.
I guess I like it.


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Junkyard (A)
Types: Action – Looter
Cost: $5
+1 Action. You may gain a Ruins, putting it into your hand. Discard any number of cards. +1 Card per card discarded. +1 Card per Action card discarded. You may trash this.

When you trash this, +2 Cards.
Well, I don't really think it's worth it to spam yourself with tons of Ruins. But I could be wrong...


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Mortuary
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. Look through your discard pile. You may trash a card from your discard pile or hand.

While this is in play, when you trash a card costing $2 or more, +1 Card.
Hm... I'm not so sure if a simple non-terminal one-card trasher is a bit weak for $5. Probably it's fine...? Either way, it's not terribly exciting.


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Pact
Type: Treasure
Cost: $2
Worth $0. When you play this, trash it. For each Pact in the trash, gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile, putting it into your hand.

When you buy a Pact, each player gains a copy of it (you get 2 copies total).
One big problem of the card (apart from balancing, which is hard to judge) is multiplayer games. With 4 players the pile is empty by just buying 2 of those.


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Ferret
Types: Action
Cost: $4
You may trash this. If you do, +$ equal to the cost in coins of an Action card in the trash that you choose.

While this is in play, when you buy a card, gain a Ferret from the Supply or trash.
I suppose it's ok. I might even like it.


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Incendiarist
Types: Action – Attack – Looter
Cost: $5
You may trash a card from your hand. If it is an… Action card, each other player gains a Ruins; Treasure card, gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile; Victory card, each other player gains a Curse.
Neat idea... I guess it's fine.


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Priestcraft
Types: Action – Attack
Cost: $5
+$2. Choose one: Trash a card from your hand; or choose a card in the trash and each other player gains a copy of that card, putting it on top of his deck.
Another nice one.


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Miser
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Choose two: +$2; gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile; gain a Silver. (The choices must be different.)
Not too exciting, but in terms of balance it's fine I guess.


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Charter (A)
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Card. +1 Action. Trash the top card of your deck. You may gain a card from the trash.

When you trash this, +2 Cards.
I like the idea, but this looks too strong. Cantrip trasher for $4 with no downside, but instead a bonus if you have spammend them... yeah, too strong.


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Robber Baron
Types: Action – Attack – Looter
Cost: $4
You may discard a Ruins. If you do, +$3 and each other player discards down to 3 cards in hand. Otherwise, gain a Ruins.

When you gain this, gain 2 Ruins.
What I don't like here is that it's again a combination of other cards (Baron, Death Cart). It could probably work, but I just don't like its 'free riding' feel.


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Sacrifice
Types: Action
Cost: $5
Trash a card from your hand. If you do, +$2 and gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile.
I don't think the "if you do" clause is necessary. Otherwise just not terribly exciting. I mean, not all cards have to be fancy, but Treasure Chest cards should have at least something special to them IMO.


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King of the Slums
Types: Action – Looter
Cost: $5
Look at the top 3 cards of the Ruins pile. Gain any number of them, putting them into your hand. Put the rest back in any order. Choose up to 3 Ruins from your hand. Play the first one three times, the second one twice, and the third one once.
I have the feeling that mostly it's not worth it. This is basically a 3-5 shot superstar+self-spammer... And it can be quite random. But yeah, I like the idea.


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Astral Conqueror
Types: Action – Attack – Looter
Cost: $5
+$2. Each other player gains a Curse and a Ruins Each other player gains a Spoils from the Spoils pile. This cannot cause a player to gain the last Curse or Ruins in the Supply.
Probably fine.


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Smelter (A)
Types: Action – Reaction
Cost: $3
+1 Action. Trash a card from your hand. Gain a card of equal cost, putting it on top of your deck.

When you would gain a Silver, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, instead, gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile.
Terribly weak I suppose.


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Junkyard (B)
Types: Action – Victory
Cost: $5
Choose one: Trash a card from your hand; gain up to 2 cards from the trash with a total cost of up to $5 and trash this.

Worth 1 VP for every 3 Victory cards in the trash.
The top part is quite weak, so you probably get this for the bottom part? But that's also quite weak and it might scale badly in multiplayer.


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Alehouse
Types: Action
Cost: $3
When you trash a card this turn, +1 Action, discard a card, +1 Card, and you may gain a card costing less than the trashed card. Trash a card from your hand or from play.
Uh, this one is confusing. So the when trash only works for future trashings, not for the one the card does? Similar to the Urchin trigger? I guess I don't understand the card very well...


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Ignoble Brigand
Types: Action – Attack – Looter
Cost: $4
+$1. You may trash a Treasure from your hand. Each other player may discard a Treasure. If he doesn't, he gains a Ruins.
Probably ok?


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Junkyard (C)
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Trash a card from your hand. Gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it, putting it into your hand.

When you trash this, trash a card from your hand. Gain a card costing exactly $1 less than it.
The on trash effect is interesting in terms of self-synergy... and the card itself is fine probably... not that we need another terminal trasher for $3-$4, but it probably works.


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Heretic
Types: Action – Reaction
Cost: $5
Trash a card from your hand. Choose one: +1 Card per $ it costs; or +$ equal to its cost.

When one of your cards is trashed, you may trash this from your hand. If you do, put the trashed card into your hand.
Looks balanced to me.


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Iron Maiden
Types: Action – Attack – Looter
Cost: $4
+$2. Each other player with 5 or more cards in hand discards a card. If it is an…
Action card, he gains a Copper; Treasure card, he gains a Ruins; Victory card, he gains a Curse. He puts the gained card into his hand.

When you trash this, you may trash up to 2 cards from your hand.
This looks quite strong. Discard plus Junker plus terminal Silver for $4...? yeah, probably overpowered.


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Satan's Workshop
Types: Action – Attack
Cost: $5
Gain a card costing up to the number of Fire tokens in your Satan Pit. Each other player may reveal a hand with 2 or fewer Treasures. If nobody does, put a Fire token in your Satan Pit. Each other player gains a Copper, putting it into his hand.

When you would trash this, set it aside. If you do, at the beginning of your next Buy phase, +1 Buy, +$1 per token in your Satan Pit, and put this into the trash.

Setup: Each player puts 2 Fire tokens in his Satan Pit.
I honestly don't like those ideas with new elements and tokens and stuff. Also quite wordy.


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Bargain
Types: Reaction
Cost: $1
When you would gain a card, you may discard this. If you do, instead, gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it.
Looks neat.


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Soldier
Types: Action – Attack
Cost: $3
+1 Card. +1 Action. Each player trashes a Copper card from his hand (or reveals a hand without Copper). You may trash this. If you do, gain a Mercenary from the Mercenary pile if there are 4 or more Treasues in the trash; or gain a Madman from the Madman pile if there are 2 or more Soldiers in the trash.

Clarification: If there are 4 Treasures and 2 Soldiers in the trash, you choose whether to gain a Mercenary or a Madman.
Very interesting thematically. I kinda like it and how it uses existing non-supply piles.


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Archaeologist
Types: Action – Looter
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. You may trash the top card of the Ruins pile.

While this card is in play, when you play an Action card, play a copy of the top card of the Ruins pile.
I like the idea, but what happens with the Ruins after it's being played? Have you acutally gained it or just played it 'virtually'?



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Stronghold
Types: Victory
Cost: $6
Worth 1 VP for every 2 Spoils in your deck (rounded down).

When you gain this, gain 3 Spoils from the Spoils pile.
3 Spoils ain't bad, but i really doubt you want to buy this for its VP benefit. $6 is just quite expensive.


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Garrison
Types: Action – Reaction
Cost: $3
Trash a card from your hand. For each $2 that it costs (rounded down), gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile.

When a player trashes a card, you may reveal this from your hand and gain the trashed card. If you do, discard this.

Clarification: If multiple players reveal a Garrison, the Garrison of the player who trashed the card gets resolved first, the other players follow in turn order. Later players can't gain the card due to losing track; Garrison can only gain the card if it is still in the trash.
Looks quite weak, and I feel it might even work for $2. Fine otherweise.


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Raid
Types: Action – Looter
Cost: $3
Choose one: Play and trash up to 2 Action cards from your hand; or gain any number of Action cards from the trash costing up to $3 and play them in any order.

When you trash this, each other player gains a Ruins.
On first glance this looks overpowered. But I guess that 1. you need to have 2 actions to play in hand to use its entire effect, 2. those actions are trashed, and 3. you can only get the weak actions back. I acutally don't think that Ruins is its main use. Just playing good $2 and $3 costs is probably the stronger effect of it. Now, it's hard to judge whether it's balanced due to the opponent interaction and some insane Highway edge cases, but I like the idea.


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Surveyor
Types: Action – Reaction
Cost: $4
+1 Action. You may trash a Victory card from your hand. If you do, gain two Treasures each costing exactly $1 more than it, putting one on top of your deck.

When another player buys a Victory card, you may set this aside from your hand. If you do, at the start of your next turn, return this to your hand and gain an Estate, putting it into your hand.
The big question is: Is it ever worth it to buy Duchies (or Provinces in Colony games) just to transform them into Golds? Maybe against Duke strategies? I guess it's a very good opener, which gets extremely weak during midgame and gets a slight boost once greening has startet. I actually kinda like it.


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Smelter (B)
Types: Action – Reaction
Cost: $3
You may trash a card from your hand. If you trash an… Action card, +2 Actions; Treasure card, +$2; Victory card, +2 Cards.

When you trash a card you may discard this from your hand. If you go, gain a card costing less than the trashed card.
Looks fine.


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Condottiero
Types: Action – Attack – Looter
Cost: $4
+2 Buys. +$2. Each player (including you) may discard a Treasure. If he does, he puts his deck into his discard pile and immediately reshuffles. Each other player gains a Ruins.

When you trash this, look through your discard pile. You may trash up to 2 cards from your discard pile or hand.

Clarification: Each other player gaining a Ruins is not contingent on whether or not he discards; it just always happens after the discard and shuffling effects.
Probably fine as well. Quite strong for $4, but not overly so.


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Angry Mob
Types: Action – Attack – Looter
Cost: $4
+1 Action. +1 Buy. Each player gains a Ruins, putting it into his hand.

While this is in play, when you buy a Ruins, you may trash this. If you do, gain a Mob Boss from the Mob Boss pile.

Mob Boss
Types: Action
Cost: $0*
+1 Buy. Reveal your hand. For each Ruins revealed, +1 Card and +$1. You may return a Ruins from your hand to the Supply. If you do, +1 Action. (This is not in the Supply.)
This can lead to crazy games I suppose. I'm not sure yet what to think of it...


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Charter (B)
Types: Treasure – Attack – Looter
Cost: $5
Worth $2. When you play this, each other player gains a Ruins, putting it into his hand.
Silver Plus for $5 ist common, but here the Plus is really quite strong. On the other hand, the junking is delayed by one shuffle, so it's probably still fine? I guess?


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Danse Macabre
Types: Action
Cost: $4
You may play an Action from your hand for none of its effects. If you do, +4 Cards and +1 Action.

When you buy this, trash it.

When you trash this, gain 2 cheaper cards of different costs.
Uhm... so you can only gain this card without buying it. Otherwise it's like a Silvers and some $2 cost? This is probably ok-ish on its own (board dependend though), but the main action is really really strong. Maybe I'm wrong, but this feels overpowered if it's usable.


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Garderobe
Types: Action – Looter
Cost: $2
+1 Action. +$2. Gain a Ruins, putting it into your hand. You may play an Action card from your hand costing up to $3.
This is probably decent once the Ruins pile is empty, but otherwise the self-junking is just too bad to justify a sorta-Silver for $2...


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Drug
Types: Action – Victory – Looter
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. +$1. You may gain a Ruins. If you do, +1 Card. You may gain a Ruins. If you do, +1 Action.

Worth –3 VP if every other player has fewer Ruins than you.
Thematically it's neat: Doing drugs can make you feel great, but it 'Ruins' you in the long run. Probably fine as a Peddler variant.


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Street Sweeper
Types: Action – Looter
Cost: $4
+2 Cards. +1 Action. Trash a card.

When you trash this, gain a Ruins.
Much too strong, and the bottom part probably very seldom happens.


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Blood Feud
Types:
Action – Attack – Looter
Cost: $4
Choose one: +1 Action, +$1, and each player (including you) gains a Ruins, putting it in his hand; or reveal up to 3 cards from your hand, play the revealed Action cards in any order, then trash all the revealed cards.
Interesting... so you want a bunch of those I guess. Gain the Ruins and trash it right away. Looks quite good, and I think I like it.


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Barrister
Types: Action – Attack
Cost: $5
+2 Cards. Each player (including you) reveals the top 2 cards of his deck; you may choose a revealed Treasure for him to trash. He discards the rest. You may gain a Treasure from the trash.

Setup: Replace one of each player's starting Coppers with a Claim.

Claim
Types: Treasure
Cost: $0
Worth $1. When you play this, look through your discard pile. You may trash a Claim from your discard pile or hand. If you do, gain a Gold, putting it into your hand.

Clarification: In a 6-player game, the starting player does not replace a Copper with a Claim.
I honestly don't think Dark Ages needs another replace for starting cards... I mean this thing could probably work, but I just don't like the idea.


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Mendicant
Types: Action – Looter
Cost: $2
+1 Card. +1 Action. Gain a Ruins, putting it into your hand. You may play any number of Ruins from your hand. If you played two or more, +1 Card.
Again, I don't think you want to flood yourself with junk, just in order to play the junk... I'm not sure, but this probably doesn't work.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2013, 10:58:07 am by kn1tt3r »
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Powerman

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #3: Dark Ages
« Reply #139 on: September 24, 2013, 11:57:15 am »
0

Going through the ones that seem interesting.
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Cultivate
Types: Action – Victory
Cost: $5
+1 Action. Choose one: Trash a Victory card from your hand and gain a Treasure card costing up to $1 more; or trash a Treasure card from your hand and gain a Victory card costing up to $2 more.

This is worth 3 VP if there are at least 4 differently named Victory cards in the trash; otherwise it's worth 1 VP.

Ok, so basically trash an estate gain a silver; or trash a gold, gain a province.  I don't think Duchy->Gold is useful that often, and silver-->Province has it's uses, but is still nichey.  Don't like the variable VP because I have so rarely seen 4 different Victory cards in the trash.  But if you manage that, it's a duchy, I suppose.  Overall, eh.

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Patrol
Types: Action – Reaction
Cost: $3
Discard any number of cards. Draw until you have 5 cards in hand.

When you discard a card from your hand other than during a Clean-up phase, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, either trash that card, or put it on top of your deck.
Really, really hard counter to Militia.  Other than that it's really strong with Oasis, as it basically turns Oasis into Junk Dealer.  Don't like the swinginess.

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Tribal Man
Types: Action
Cost: $5
Gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile. Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal an Action card. Choose one: Put the card into your hand; or play the Action, trash it, and gain a card costing less than it.

When you trash this, gain an Action card costing at most $5 that is not a Tribal Man.
So kind of like a Golem that only goes for one card, and lets you kind of procession it or put it in your hand.  Seems alright.  Bottom is similar to catacombs and I'm betting the "not a Tribal Man" is so that it doesn't autopile on $5 + Watchtower.  Don't know how much the Spoils adds to the power, but without it it seems a touch weak.  Maybe balanced because of the spoils.

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Disciple
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Look through your discard pile. You may reveal a Treasure from it and put it into your hand. You may trash this and another copy of Disciple from your hand. If you do trash two Disciples, gain a Savior from the Savior pile.

Savior
Types: Action
Cost: 0*
+1 Action. You may put your deck into your discard pile. Look through your discard pile and put a card from it into your hand. You may return this to the Savior pile. If you do, play an Action card from your hand three times. (This is not in the Supply.)
Seems way way too strong.  Disciple is very quickly a terminal silver, and often a terminal gold.  Then Savior basically gives you the strongest card not in your draw pile, and can be a one time KC. 


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Ravage
Types: Action – Attack – Looter
Cost: $5
You may discard a card. If you do, +1 Action. Each other player with 3 or more cards in hand reveals his hand and discards the card with the highest cost in coins (you choose in a tie). If he discarded a Victory card, he gains a Ruins, putting it into his hand.
Seems almost strictly worse than Pillage?  I mean it does stack to play it twice, but I don't think I'd like the Victory card part because then I don't really get the discard part.  Plus it wrecks your own turn more.

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Junkyard (A)
Types: Action – Looter
Cost: $5
+1 Action. You may gain a Ruins, putting it into your hand. Discard any number of cards. +1 Card per card discarded. +1 Card per Action card discarded. You may trash this.

When you trash this, +2 Cards.
Cellar variant?  Seems strong.  This in a 5 card hand, with say 1 action card, lets you get a 9 card hand?  That's Mad(man).


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Pact
Type: Treasure
Cost: $2
Worth $0. When you play this, trash it. For each Pact in the trash, gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile, putting it into your hand.

When you buy a Pact, each player gains a copy of it (you get 2 copies total).
Seems too swingy and generally unfun.  I think.

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Incendiarist
Types: Action – Attack – Looter
Cost: $5
You may trash a card from your hand. If it is an… Action card, each other player gains a Ruins; Treasure card, gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile; Victory card, each other player gains a Curse.
Seems really weak and swingy.  Trashing an Action to give a Ruins is likely not a good idea unless that action is ruins, and that's kind of like Ambassador except worse and while Amb is strong it is still a $3 card.  Trashing a copper for a Spoils is meh, it gives you $1 less this hand, gives you $2 more next shuffle, and then one card less after that.  Seems week for using as a trasher.  Trashing an estate to give a curse is obviously the strong part, but you only have 3 estates so matching them up is very difficult unless you have an engine, in which case you probably already trashed the estates.  So it sounds interesting, but not balanced.

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Priestcraft
Types: Action – Attack
Cost: $5
+$2. Choose one: Trash a card from your hand; or choose a card in the trash and each other player gains a copy of that card, putting it on top of his deck.
So either trash a card, +$2, or (if you're smart about it) "Seahag" +$2.  Don't like it.

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Miser
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Choose two: +$2; gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile; gain a Silver. (The choices must be different.)
This is so so so close to being strictly better than Explorer.

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Sacrifice
Types: Action
Cost: $5
Trash a card from your hand. If you do, +$2 and gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile.
Anti scaling trash for benefit cards are generally not a great idea.  You already get the benefit of getting rid of the Copper / Curse / Estate.  So I don't like this.  Especially because it isn't restricted to one type of junk.

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Iron Maiden
Types: Action – Attack – Looter
Cost: $4
+$2. Each other player with 5 or more cards in hand discards a card. If it is an…
Action card, he gains a Copper; Treasure card, he gains a Ruins; Victory card, he gains a Curse. He puts the gained card into his hand.

When you trash this, you may trash up to 2 cards from your hand.
Seems way too strong.  Treasure is >> Cutpurse.  Victory >> quite a few cursers.  Action >> Militia unless it's a ruins.  The trash does go into their hand, and they can discard curses free, but it still seems to strong.


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Condottiero
Types: Action – Attack – Looter
Cost: $4
+2 Buys. +$2. Each player (including you) may discard a Treasure. If he does, he puts his deck into his discard pile and immediately reshuffles. Each other player gains a Ruins.

When you trash this, look through your discard pile. You may trash up to 2 cards from your discard pile or hand.

Clarification: Each other player gaining a Ruins is not contingent on whether or not he discards; it just always happens after the discard and shuffling effects.
Super super super strong.  +$2, +2 Buys would be boring but only semi weak at $4.  This also has a good reaction and is a Ruin giver.

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Charter (B)
Types: Treasure – Attack – Looter
Cost: $5
Worth $2. When you play this, each other player gains a Ruins, putting it into his hand.
Way way way too good.

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Street Sweeper
Types: Action – Looter
Cost: $4
+2 Cards. +1 Action. Trash a card.

When you trash this, gain a Ruins.
Way way way too strong.  Lab with Upgrade (yeah I know it's not but it is for estates and coppers effectively)
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XerxesPraelor

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #3: Dark Ages
« Reply #140 on: September 24, 2013, 12:02:30 pm »
+3

Wow, I'm actually quite surprised by the range of response my card is getting. Some people say it's way too powerful, others that it's weak, some that it's interesting but unbalanced, and others that it is balanced but boring.
I don't understand...
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GwinnR

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #3: Dark Ages
« Reply #141 on: September 24, 2013, 02:03:21 pm »
0

Wow, I'm actually quite surprised by the range of response my card is getting. Some people say it's way too powerful, others that it's weak, some that it's interesting but unbalanced, and others that it is balanced but boring.
I don't understand...
Hey, are you sure, that you remember your card right and don't tell about my card? ;-) For my card it's the same.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #3: Dark Ages
« Reply #142 on: September 24, 2013, 02:07:14 pm »
0

Wow, I'm actually quite surprised by the range of response my card is getting. Some people say it's way too powerful, others that it's weak, some that it's interesting but unbalanced, and others that it is balanced but boring.
I don't understand...
Hey, are you sure, that you remember your card right and don't tell about my card? ;-) For my card it's the same.

Not for my card. The response has been universally negative.
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nopawnsintended

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #3: Dark Ages
« Reply #143 on: September 24, 2013, 02:28:33 pm »
+1

Wow, I'm actually quite surprised by the range of response my card is getting. Some people say it's way too powerful, others that it's weak, some that it's interesting but unbalanced, and others that it is balanced but boring.
I don't understand...
Hey, are you sure, that you remember your card right and don't tell about my card? ;-) For my card it's the same.

Not for my card. The response has been universally negative.

My card has had the desired effect: FUN!

If you listen to my video, my favorite card (Charter A) struck me as terrible at first because of the indiscriminate topdeck trashing (which I don't usually like), but the recover from the trash fixed it for me.

On negative comments, if I said anything too negative about your (anyone's) card, there are several possibilities: (a) it started with "trash a card from...", (b) it does weird things with Ruins, (c) I don't understand what your card really does, and (d) I got really tired.  It took longer than I thought it would.

On the active trashers, it was a popular idea (and it's thematic) but it might have been too popular (i.e., overused) for me to really give each of those cards a fair shot.  Eventually, I became tired of "trash something" and wanted to see something that was more subtly part of the Dark Ages club.  Before voting, I'll try to give these a better shot.

On the Ruins, there are a lot of cards in the category of WeirdingTheRuinsTM (WTR) that I won't be voting for.  That doesn't mean that they're not awesome cards, but it does mean that my brain doesn't have enough RAM to make sense of them in the way I should.  Tired or not.

That brings me back to Charter A.  I like it because it is thematic, my brain can make sense of it, and it is fun.  Whoever crafted that card, nice work (re-disclosure: it wasn't me.  My card is fun, but in a meta way).
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werothegreat

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #3: Dark Ages
« Reply #144 on: September 24, 2013, 03:00:15 pm »
+5

Whoever made Brick, it should have been this:

Brick
Action - $2

This is a brick.
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scott_pilgrim

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #3: Dark Ages
« Reply #145 on: September 24, 2013, 03:00:35 pm »
+1

Quote
Incendiarist
Types: Action – Attack – Looter
Cost: $5
You may trash a card from your hand. If it is an… Action card, each other player gains a Ruins; Treasure card, gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile; Victory card, each other player gains a Curse.

I agree with Donald that Dark Ages doesn't really need a card that gives Curses. Once you run out Ruins and Curses, the game's pretty much over.
I don't understand this complaint.  When are the Curses ever going to run out?  It has to be a 4-player Estate game with everyone going hard on Incendiarist.  Otherwise, you would have to specifically be buying victory cards to trash to your Incendiarist if you wanted to deal out all the Curses.  And I imagine that a lot of the time, the Ruins option will never be used anyway, it's just like an Ambassador for Ruins which is not great for $5.  I feel like having both Curses and Ruins run out as a result of Incendiarist being in the kingdom would be a very, very rare occurence; you have to have it be an Estate game (and this is a DA card), it has to be worthwhile to trash an action to deal out Ruins, and it has to be worthwhile to buy Estates to trash them and hand out Curses.

There's also the argument that a single card should not have the potential to deal out 20 junk cards, or that having one card deal both Curses and Ruins would lead to sloggy games every time that card is in the kingdom, but again I think this is not a valid complaint.  Assuming you don't buy victory cards to fuel your Incendiarist (I'm quite sure this is an awful play in most cases), each player can only take up to 3 curses instead of the usual 5 in 2-player.  But more importantly, you usually (by usually I mean almost always) only hand out a Ruins when you're trashing a Ruins, so that doesn't increase the sloginess of the game at all.  It seems to me like it's less sloggy than almost any other $5 curser or looter.

Those complaints are valid against some of the other cards (I think there were two others?) here that hand out both Curses and Ruins, but I think the designer of Incendiarist (not me) very cleverly made sure to avoid both of them.
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werothegreat

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #3: Dark Ages
« Reply #146 on: September 24, 2013, 03:01:15 pm »
0

Whoever made Brick, it should have been this:

Brick
Action - $2

This is a brick.

Anyone who posts "this is not a brick" automatically gets negative respect from me - I will go out and find posts of yours I respected, and unrespect them.
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Contrary to popular belief, I do not run the wiki all on my own.  There are plenty of other people who are actively editing.  Go bother them!

Check out this fantasy epic adventure novel I wrote, the Broken Globe!  http://www.amazon.com/Broken-Globe-Tyr-Chronicles-Book-ebook/dp/B00LR1SZAS/

mail-mi

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #3: Dark Ages
« Reply #147 on: September 24, 2013, 03:20:10 pm »
+1

Whoever made Brick, it should have been this:

Brick
Action - $2

This is a brick.
You may hit someone on the head with this card.
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SirPeebles

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #3: Dark Ages
« Reply #148 on: September 24, 2013, 03:23:42 pm »
+1

I'm really liking Archaeologist, but I agree with others who are saying that it is too strong as written.  I'm interested in what tweaks may be possible.  What if you had to discard a card from your hand to activate the free Ruins bonus?  Sort of like how Hamlet allows you to discard a card for a bonus.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest — Card #3: Dark Ages
« Reply #149 on: September 24, 2013, 03:44:59 pm »
+2

Instead of commenting on all the cards or my favorites all at once, I'm going to try something a bit different and give extensive comments on one card each day of the week. I think this will be more conducive to discussion, and I can highlight my favorite cards here. As much as I'd like to, I won't choose my card.

Tuesday's Card:

Quote
Charter (A)
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Card. +1 Action. Trash the top card of your deck. You may gain a card from the trash.

When you trash this, +2 Cards.

Before reading others' comments:
This card is super cute, and maybe my favorite of the cards submitted. It's a cantrip trasher, and is probably very strong in the opening, since it doesn't even trash a card from your hand. It obviously has the Lookout problem times 3, but mitigates it by allowing you to gain back a good card that was trashed. At the same time, it could work really well with TFB, since you could trash costly cards for benefit and gain them back with Charter (A). In fact, I think I like this implementation of the mechanic better than Graverobber or Rogue. Also, the on-trash seems to mesh well with the on-play, which is a nice bonus.

After reading others' comments:
Some people think this should cost $5. I think I disagree, since the trashing isn't targetted, which seems like it would make it significantly worse than Junk Dealer at $5. Plus, I like that it's available on both 3/4 and 2/5 openings, which sort of bothers me with strong $5 trashers like Junk Dealer.

Others have noted that the gaining from trash could have the $3-$6 restriction of Graverobber and Rogue. I definitely disagree with the lower end -- since it's an optional gain, why not allow the gaining of Estates and the like? I see no harm there. At the upper end, I think I also disagree, though I'm less certain. I definitely wouldn't like how it would discourage playing Charter (A) after you have bought a Province, especially since it works interestingly with on-trash benefit cards, and those interactions are much more likely to happen late than early. Specifically responding to:

I don't like that it can gain ANY card from the trash without restriction.  Donald X. talks about this in the Secret Histories:

Quote
In games where Provinces end up trashed, such as via other Remodels, it's way too good to be able to gain them with Graverobbers, so you can't.

I would suggest giving it the $3-$6 cost restriction on gaining cards from the trash.  That introduces a weakness to this otherwise very powerful trasher, and it makes you think twice before playing it in the late game, much like Lookout.

Not to disrespect DXV, but I see this being more of a fun combo than a broken interaction. How often do Provinces end up in the trash normally -- maybe 1-2% of games? Then, in the handful of games where you'd want to TFB a Province and then get it back, is this really that strong? I mean, if your opponent also has a Charter (A), you'd have to make sure you trash your Province and gain it back this turn to make sure your opponent doesn't get it. But, most TFB and remodel cards are terminal, which would require a village, and now you're talking about setting up an engine to get the combo played. It sounds a lot more like some very reasonable mega-turn combos than a broken interaction to me, but maybe playtesting would show differently.

Charter (A) would not be significantly worse than Junk Dealer.  JD forces you to trash a card from your hand.  Charter pretends to force you to trash a card from your deck, except it optionally lets you discard it.  Moreover, sometimes it lets you trash and then gain something better!  At its worse, it is a cantrip.  That means it pretty much never hurts to have it in you deck.  JD, OTOH, can actually run out of fodder and become dead.  At $5 JD is probably usually stronger than $5 Charter, but $4 Charter is just too good when you factor in the tricks that it can pull off.

On the cost restriction -- the lower end is less important, sure.  Without it, you can really abuse Embargo, but that's probably the only issue.  The reason why it was originally introduced was to prevent the retrieval of Madman, but Madman doesn't trash itself now.

On the upper end -- if it was only a combo with your personal TfB, that's kind of cute and fun.  But the thing is, being able to gain Provinces from the trash discourages other existing cute tricks.  Maybe I'll want to Salvage my Provinces to try to end the game quickly while I have the lead... but if Charter is in the game and I don't have a way to play Charter after, I can't risk you stealing that Province.  So it mitigates options.  The strength isn't in the possibility of me gaining my own Province, but in you gaining the Province I sacrificed.

But that's not all.  There are also games where Saboteur and Swindler can trash Colonies and Provinces.  Charter makes these games even swingier -- now there's not only the chance of me losing a high VP card, there's also a chance that another player swoops in and scoops it out of the trash, just from their own good luck that they drew Charter after my bad luck.  This is a 20 point swing that can happen from a $3 card and a $4 card.  Villages aren't even needed -- if I trash your Colony, then you're out of luck if you don't already have Charter in your hand but I draw it in my next one.  And even if you have Charter, you could still get unlucky if Charter itself trashes another Colony.

It might not be a broken interaction, but it has the potential to be extremely unfun.  Possession-Amb/Masq can cause similar VP swings, but at least in this case one of the cards is extremely expensive and you have to Amb me an Amb or Masq me a Masq for you to guarantee even a chance of pulling it off.  Charter stealing Province and Colony does not require as much effort.  It just requires some swingy luck.
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