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[Voltgloss]

I haven't followed flavor very closely, so I'm really not sure how many people already publicized this information.

But anyway I'm pretty inclined to be cautious here. Don't you think scum could have powers that benefit from knowing flavor roles? What if chairs is scum and is doing this for that reason?

I definitely hear this concern, Robz.  I remember well being Death (SK) in Major Arcana Mafia I, where a mass suitclaim (roughly equivalent to showclaims here) would have been a huge boon to me.

The thing is... we already HAVE about a third of the town whose shows are already claimed and/or easily inferred.  So if chairs is scum looking to identify people from Show X or Show Y, well, he's already accomplished that - at least well enough to give him targets for several nights. 

[faust]

I disagree with faust re: Eevee.  I reread him, and of course there is nothing overtly scummy, but it is uncanny how he participates just enough without actually getting involved in any of the larger debates taking place.  Also, he was not at the soft deadline, but WAS online at the time.  The same was true of TA.

Well, I didn't mean to say that Eevee behaviour is completely townie, I'm just saying that his interactions with the dead players give me a town vibe.

[faust]

I definitely hear this concern, Robz.  I remember well being Death (SK) in Major Arcana Mafia I, where a mass suitclaim (roughly equivalent to showclaims here) would have been a huge boon to me.

The thing is... we already HAVE about a third of the town whose shows are already claimed and/or easily inferred.  So if chairs is scum looking to identify people from Show X or Show Y, well, he's already accomplished that - at least well enough to give him targets for several nights.

What just came to my mind - isn't this true for town!chairs as well? So if he really is a cop and need to know the show of his target to be useful, why go all the way and claim to force a mass showclaim? As you already said, he has enough targets for several nights.

[EFHW]

A 5 person scum team, if Galzria is right, is pretty interesting strategically.  They can afford to have 1 or 2 of their team be really out there and active in the thread, taking a lot of chances, fomenting discord, and trying to provoke mislynches.  For TA or Voltaire to be scum, it would have to mean they were doing that.  A kind of hiding in plain sight.  A daring approach, that would probably be pretty fun to try. 

I'd expect just one player to do it, but two would be even more interesting.  If two scum can become the town leaders, they can leave the trackable/watchable night actions to their quieter team members and really wield a substantial amount of power during the day.

This could easily be purely my imagination, but I'm interested to hear what others think.

[Robz888]

Yeah, chairs could still be town, and totally right that show claiming helps his power.... but just not aware that show claiming helps scum more.

I'm thinking of this scum power. "You may perform the factional kill. You may also guess the show of your target. If you guess correctly, your kill is untraceable and unblockable."

A pretty strong power, but not at all unreasonable given how many townies with powers there appear to be.

[Voltgloss]

chairs, do you absolutely have to have EVERYONE'S showclaims for your role to be at all effective?  Like, if everyone but one person showclaims, are you truly unable to tell us the alignment of ANYONE you have targeted?

[Voltgloss]

Although... well, wait.  My show is disclosed up front.  A scumpower like Robz described basically means I am utterly defenseless, and - I assume - would have made me a Night 1 casualty.

[EFHW]

Yeah, I think the exact scenario Robz proposed is too overpowered.  Especially with all these secondary wincons going on, things get disclosed left and right.  Way too easy for scum.  But he is right that there always the risk that something in the info could help scum.  If we get an IC out of the deal, it seems worth it.  That's why I wanted to know how easily chairs' claim could get dismissed due to assumptions.

[Jorbles]

Argh, of course a have forgotten the most notable thing about shraeye: He states twice (#561 and #1001) that mail-mi vs. chairs is town vs. town. This makes me think that one of them could well be scum.

Actually this makes me think that mail-mi vs chairs IS town v town. Scum would know that with certainty.

[faust]

Actually this makes me think that mail-mi vs chairs IS town v town. Scum would know that with certainty.

Well, not if there are multiple factions. But you're right, this is also a possibility. The only case where I don't see shraeye stating this is when both chairs and mail-mi are scum.

[Robz888]

Although... well, wait.  My show is disclosed up front.  A scumpower like Robz described basically means I am utterly defenseless, and - I assume - would have made me a Night 1 casualty.

Yeah okay, the exact thing I mentioned wouldn't exist then.

[Jorbles]

I think I'm in favour of the show claim. Scum starts the game with more info than us as individuals usually, and if by sharing it we can clear someone it seems like it might be worth any risk especially since it won't be full flavour claiming.

In Bankers scum basically won because we/they had more info than town about setup. In that game I did everything I could to oppose claiming information where scum already had an advantage so we could maintain that advantage. What I'm saying is since we have reason to believe this might help us I think it will be beneficial... also FOS Robz a little bit.

chairs, do you absolutely have to have EVERYONE'S showclaims for your role to be at all effective?  Like, if everyone but one person showclaims, are you truly unable to tell us the alignment of ANYONE you have targeted?

Also this. Plus, at this point, is there a benefit to hiding how your power works? Maybe don't answer that, but do consider if it might be more useful to tell us fully how it works so we know what the situation is.

[Robz888]

I guess that's true.

[chairs]

I am semi-Naive.  I will never get guilty results on one of the shows, even if that person is guilty.

Hence my desire for a full show claim now, before it's obvious which show.

[Voltgloss]

I assume you know which show gives you correct results?  (don't say which show of course)

[faust]

I am semi-Naive.  I will never get guilty results on one of the shows, even if that person is guilty.

Hence my desire for a full show claim now, before it's obvious which show.

Why don't you just investigate those people whose show you already know?

[Robz888]

I am semi-Naive.  I will never get guilty results on one of the shows, even if that person is guilty.

Hence my desire for a full show claim now, before it's obvious which show.

Or why don't you just ask the person you investigated to show claim?

[Robz888]

Oh... I see, for future days, yeah, you want to only set out to investigate people of the correct show. Yeah, okay.

[Twistedarcher]

I am semi-Naive.  I will never get guilty results on one of the shows, even if that person is guilty.

Hence my desire for a full show claim now, before it's obvious which show.

Or why don't you just ask the person you investigated to show claim?

Nonono don't do this. This is the same as chairs full claiming.

Full claiming flavor would help chairs hide which show he's looking for until there's a result.

[faust]

Oh... I see, for future days, yeah, you want to only set out to investigate people of the correct show. Yeah, okay.

Only that I'm not sure how many future days there will be for chairs with this claim...

[Robz888]

I'm confused.

[faust]

I don't feel good about chairs' claim. So we have two cops, in addition to the other PRs already outed? This doesn't seem likely.

[Twistedarcher]

I don't feel good about chairs' claim. So we have two cops, in addition to the other PRs already outed? This doesn't seem likely.

They both are weaker than normal cops, though so I can see it.

I also think there may be a counterpart to chairs who can investigate the other show. That person shouldn't claim if they exist but it would support chairs claim.

[Voltaire]

I don't feel good about chairs' claim. So we have two cops, in addition to the other PRs already outed? This doesn't seem likely.

We have a dead Captain and a claimed Enabler. I have a theory based on this that there are a huge number of PRs in this game but that only a smaller number are turned "on" or otherwise able to be used each day, resulting in "standard" balance.

[Voltgloss]

We also have at least one person whose role was pure negative utility - nkirbit, who was "Macho," which just means he can't be protected by a Doctor.